Adnan Syed, subject of Podcast, "Serial," has sentence Overturned

Yes, but he is going on trial again for the murder. He was not exonerated by any means, just granted the right to a new trial.

IR1, no way the Prosecutors are going to try to re-try this. They're the ones that put forward the motion to vacate. They wouldn't have done that unless they knew they had no case against him or that there's actual evidence that someone else did it.

Adnan won't be tried again.

It was either him or the guy who helped carry the body.

Nope R2

"In the state’s motion to overturn his conviction, prosecutors wrote not that they believed Syed was innocent, but that they no longer had faith in the integrity of his conviction.

“It is in the interests of justice and fairness that these convictions be vacated and that the defendant, at a minimum, be afforded a new trial,” wrote Becky Feldman, chief of the State’s Attorney’s Office’s Sentencing Review Unit"

Prosecutors still believe he did it, there needs to be a fair trial to convict second time around.

According to what was released last week, they have two suspects who could have done it.

They say one filed a lie detector test. Not sure if that's the guy that was mentioned in the Serial Podcast, the one that found the body.

I still think Don was involved.

Nope, R4. That says they think he deserves a fair trial, it doesn't say they're going to pursue another one. Several articles mention how the Prosecutors haven't decided if they will. That's code for, they're not going to. Again, for the Prosecution to be the ones to put forward vacating a sentence, especially after 20 years of them denying a new trial, it's a big deal. They wouldn't do that if they actually thought they had a case.

They have the option to... but they wont.

*one failed a lie detector test

Nope R6. Baltimore City State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby in a statement says that he deserves another trial, not to be let free.

"After a nearly year-long investigation reviewing the facts of this case, Syed deserves a new trial where he is adequately represented and the latest evidence can be presented,” Baltimore City State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby said in a statement."

They are not going to retry him with all the questions surrounding this case, and especially not considering he has already served 20 years based on a flawed prosecution.

Did they release him from jail? If they did, then they will not be retrying him, end of story.

Nope, R8. The Prosecution is the one that initiated that his sentence be vacated.

[quote]The Baltimore State’s Attorney’s Office moved Wednesday to vacate Syed’s conviction, according to legal papers filed in Baltimore City Circuit Court. The new motion said prosecutors on the case decades ago knew there was another suspect who threatened to kill Lee, Syed’s ex-girlfriend, and neglected to disclose the information to defense attorneys — committing what’s known as a Brady violation.

I agree, r9, if they were going to retry him and we’re confident they had their guy, they would have done it while he was still in prison.

Yes, R9, the judge overturned and he'll be released without bail.

Stupid autocorrect. “Were” at r11.

[quote]The move came after prosecutors made a request for his release on Wednesday saying that “the state no longer has confidence in the integrity of the conviction”. Prosecutors said that an almost year-long investigation had cast doubts about the validity of cellphone tower data and uncovered new information about the possible involvement of two alternate unnamed suspects.

Liar detector tests are as real as reading tea leafs.

*Lie

Yes, R15. However, that's not what they're basing their evidence on. It was just a description of the person and the lie detector thing was specifically mentioned in the Podcast, so I'm curious if that's who they're referring to.

He did it. He was obsessed with her. His family, who believed in the perfect Muslim son, has fought his conviction non-stop.

Oh

^^

Oh well. He served 20 years. That's as much as you'd get in a British jail for offing someone.

I think there’s too many loose threads around the case to have such a definitive answer. It’s been established his friend Jay lied about numerous key points that ended up convicting Adnan is the one I can’t get past.

Are you fucking kidding me? What a ton of fucking political bullshit! Fuck that cold blooded killer

I don't think there's enough evidence to definitively say he did it or didn't do it.

Way too many weird things in the case that don't make sense and everyone has bizarre theories. Some even believe the victim's family did it.

Also, too much emphasis has been placed on him being Muslim when it’s pretty clear he loosely followed it at best. He drank, smoked pot, didn’t keep Halal, and dated plenty of non-Muslim girls.

No, there's no doubt he did it

Based on?

Whether he did it is sadly not the point. What can be proven is the point. As r20 pointed out, Jay changed his story NUMEROUS times. Without Jay, there is no conviction. And that is the state’s fault. If the state thinks Adnan did it, they’ll have to start from scratch and rebuild the case.

The reddit threads on Adnan are pretty thorough. He did it.

A bunch of people on the internet have an opinion so that must mean he did!

What specific evidence ties Adnan to it?

Yeah… Reddit and Twitter. I get all my news from those sites!

WTF R29?

I dont have time to do your research for you!

He is so innocent. He is a nice Moselm man with the sexist attribute for a pure top. A clean asshole! He couldn't have done it. He is a cute thug and cute thugs don't commit those sorts of crimes.

OK, bitches, make fun of Reddit.

Here's just one comment. I find it well reasoned.

Why it's clear Adnan killed Hae I believe Adnan Syed is guilty of murdering Hae Min Lee and while I would struggle to convict him as a juror in a courtroom, there is enough evidence to leave little doubt that he did in fact murder commit the crime he was incarcerated for. I do not believe Jay’s testimony – which is all over the place and unreliable – is necessary to reach that conclusion, nor do I believe it is necessary to infer anything about Adnan’s location from cellphone towers to conclude that Adnan is guilty. As such, I present the evidence, excluding both Jay’s testimony and the cellphone tower location-tracking, that shows that Adnan almost certainly killed Hae. Before I completely ignore Jay’s testimony however, it is necessary to point out that Jay knew where Hae’s car was. This is critical because it illustrates that, while Jay is unreliable at best, he either killed Hae or he knows information about who did. With regards to the cellphone towers, I am not an expert or anything of the sort and I have read mixed reviews as to whether the location data is reliable or not, so I’m going to ignore the locations too to give Adnan the benefit of the doubt. I am however going to use Adnan’s cell phone logs to determine when calls were made/received and to/from whom which is not in dispute by any experts. Okay, so that’s the preamble: so how do we know Adnan killed Hae? 1. Adnan activated his cell phone the day before Hae’s murder Adnan bought the cell phone on January 11th, activated it January 12th at 7:32pm, and Hae was murdered before 4:00pm on January 13th. If Adnan did murder Hae, having a cellphone to communicate easily with an accomplice would be hugely beneficial, or to call others in the hopes of establishing an alibi. In any event, this is very unusual timing that the cellphone was activated less than 24 hours before the murder. Adnan also called Hae at 11:27pm (0m02s) on the 12th and then 2 more times on the 13th, once at midnight (0m2s) and once at 12:35am (1m24s). 2. Adnan allows Jay to borrow his car the day of the murder Pretty self explanatory: pretty bad luck to lend your car to the guy who knew where the victim’s car was on the same day the victim was murdered. You might be thinking that maybe it’s not bad luck at all, and that Jay decided to kill Hae because he had the opportunity to do so somehow by virtue of having Adnan’s car. This doesn’t really make any sense though, because Adnan says that it was Adnan’s idea to lend the car to Jay to buy a birthday present for Jay’s girlfriend, Stephanie: it’s not as though Jay asked to borrow the car and planned this all out. It seems incredibly unlikely that Jay would spontaneously plot to murder Adnan’s ex-girlfriend and carry out the murder a couple hours later. Aside from Jay barely knowing Hae, there is really no known motive whatsoever for Jay to murder her (unless it was at Adnan’s request), and it would have been incredibly difficult for Jay to get the opportunity to kill Hae in the short window of her leaving school, getting in her car, and going to pick up her cousin. 3. Adnan asked Hae for a ride that day despite having his own car Adnan was heard by multiple people – and actually admitted this to the police when called by the police the night of January 13th – asking Hae for a ride after school which she initially agreed to but according to witnesses’ later changed her mind. He was heard asking in the morning before he had given his car to Jay and apparently said that his car was in the shop. Bad luck to lie about needing a ride after school the day she gets murdered. Adnan later denies having asked Hae for a ride.

No worries, R31, that's what I thought.

I love people who have time to make declaratives but can't explain how they came to the conclusion.

4. Timing of breakup with Hae and Adnan, and Hae starting to date Don + breakup letter Adnan and Hae broke up around the middle of December and Hae started to date Don on January 1st. This is awfully close to the date of the murder, and it is particularly worrying since Hae provided a breakup letter to Adnan which made in no uncertain terms that she was ending the relationship, and there was notes (i.e. back and forth correspondence) written between two people with different coloured pens on the back of the letter which Aisha claims is her and Adnan, and at the top of the note is written “I’m going to kill”, which Aisha claims was not there when they were passing the note back and forth. This breakup letter and the notes on the back was found at Adnan’s house.

5. Adnan’s cellphone calls while supposedly as the mosque, no alibi Adnan says he would have been at the mosque in prayer between 8:00pm and 10:00pm/10:30pm, but the phone calls Jenn’s pager 2 times at 8:04pm and 8:05pm. Adnan and Jenn are not friends so it makes no sense that he would be calling her pager: this clearly indicates that Jay is still with Adnan (as Adnan says he had his cellphone once track was done) and therefore that Adnan is not in prayer. It’s also interesting that he called Yaser – a friend from the mosque – at 6:59pm. I speculate that this is to let Yaser know that he is either running late or that he won’t be making it, or to ask Yaser to make a cover-story for Adnan’s absence. He calls Yaser again at 10:02pm perhaps to ask if people asked any questions. It’s also worth noting that Adnan’s cell continues to make calls during the 8:00pm-10:00pm/10:30pm timeframe at 9:01pm, 9:03pm, 9:10pm, 9:57pm: it just really doesn’t seem like he was in prayer for this period. No one from the mosque (other than his father, whose testimony had major holes in it) was able to say that he was there that night.

6. Adnan doesn’t know where he was that evening/night Adnan has not been able to provide information about where he was that night - just "I probably would have been at X" or "I probably would have done X". This is very odd since Hae went missing that night and the police, her younger brother, and Hae’s friends, all called him that evening asking if he had seen her or if he knew where she was. This seems like the kind of thing that would trigger you to remember what you were doing that evening, especially if you had asked her for a ride after school the day she went missing and you would have been in the car with her if only she hadn’t “got tired of waiting” for you after school and left without you.

7. Jenn Pusateri’s Testimony Jenn Pusateri (Jay’s close friend) testifies that she picked up Jay up at Westview Mall (presumably the 8:04pm and 8:05pm pages in Adnan’s cell phone log to Jenn was Jay arranging this pickup) in front of Value City where she says that Adnan was with Jay. See testimony below (2 screenshots).

R34

It's not my job to convince you.

But I bet you won't even read R35 or R33

Muslim culture in general denigrates women.

Lots of honor killings. Of course Adnan thinks he's innocent. He was just defending his honor.

I did read them... that's not evidence that he did it. That's someone putting together a theory, that at best, is circumstantial.

The same can be said about Don.

There are a ton of things that don't make sense about where Don was. People easily dismiss Don's having a motive and his flimsy alibi. It's also interesting that people immediately say Adnan must have done it because he never called Hae after finding out she was missing. Guess who also never called Hae? Don. Her own boyfriend didn't try calling or paging her after finding out she went missing and that's not suspicious?

Re: Jay finding the car. In light of the evidence that just came out about where the car was found, let's not say that Jay finding it implicates Adnan.

If the evidence against Adnan is such a slam dunk, why did the prosecutors hold their thumb on the scale?

If the evidence against Adnan was such a slam dunk, why would Prosecutors now be the ones advocating that his sentence be vacated? If any of those points pasted from the armchair Reddit detective held up, they wouldn't say they no longer had faith in their case.

The victims family should file a civil suit against him. As someone noted above, he’s served as much time as he would’ve received in a European had he been convicted of murder. However, he shouldn’t be allowed to profit financially (from the inevitable book and film rights).

He wont have to profit from a book, he'll win millions in a lawsuit against the State.

Plus, why shouldn't he be able to profit? He's now not been found guilty of the crime.

I would bet that he will sue the state for wrongful conviction IF he actually didn't do it. No use opening up a can of discovery worms if he actually did it.

Not hot keep him locked up.

He can sue the state regardless. They convicted him and illegally withheld evidence that could prove he didn't do it.

Even if he did do it, at this point, there's no way they're going to go after him again. They've essentially said they don't have enough evidence AND it looks like there are two other suspects that may have been more likely to Adnan.

It's going to be interesting to see if they pursue that.

Does anyone know who specifically the other suspects are? I listened to Rabia's podcast, which dropped a surprise episode when the prosecutors filed their motion, and it was abundantly clear they knew who they were, but wouldn't actually put the speculation out there.

I'm assuming the one with the polygraphs was Jay, but was the other Don?

R46, I think the unnamed are the guy who originally found the body. I can't remember what his name was, but he also had a criminal record. The Serial podcast specifically mentioned that he had to go in and take a Polygraph test twice. So when they mentioned that suspect last week, I assumed they were pointing to him.

The other suspect, I would guess Jay. They say that the car was found parked in a lot behind the suspect's family's house. That could be a reason that Jay knew where it was.

The only reason I don't think either suspect is Don was because they never made him a suspect to begin with, which was odd. They only ever questioned him over the phone the first night and then never bothered to look into him any further.

Adnan looks like he is smelling some cookies.

I listened to the podcast at the time and was breathlessly waiting for the exonerating evidence or anything that would make me think he didn't do it. Am I the only weirdo who is quite sure he's guilty?

Lot's of people are "quite sure," he's guilty. However, the state obviously wasn't that confident in their own case, so.

It's not so much that he seems totally innocent, there's just not enough there to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he killed her after it came out Jay was lying, and the cell phone pings weren't really as damning as they were thought to be.

Exactly r51. He may have done it, he certainly appears to have a motive, but the case hinged on those two things, and if you blow them up, there's not much there.

[quote][R46], I think the unnamed are the guy who originally found the body. I can't remember what his name was, but he also had a criminal record.

I looked back in the Undisclosed archive. They referred to him as "Mr. S." I can't remember if Serial talked about him or not.

[quote]I listened to the podcast at the time and was breathlessly waiting for the exonerating evidence or anything that would make me think he didn't do it. Am I the only weirdo who is quite sure he's guilty?

If your only exposure to the story was Serial, who told the story, didn't really dig into it, and abandoned reporting on it once they were finished, you can be forgiven for thinking that. Rabia's podcast and the HBO doc really take everything apart.

He won't be tried again. Besides, 22 years is enough for a mad act committed at age 17. It's enough, already.

Serial was very listenable, but it purposefully kept you going back and forth about his guilt. It was interested in making a listenable podcast, not in investigating and/or determining guilt.

Total VPL on Adnan

R52, I've never been convinced there is a reasonable motive. People say his motive was that he was her ex and jealous. Mutual friends say that he really did not exhibit "jealous" behavior and seemed to have moved on.

R53, Serial did discuss, "Mr. S.," and referred to him by the same name. If I remember correctly, he's the one that said he randomly found the body and also had a criminal record for streaking.

R17, the point is failing a lie detector test is irrelevant. They’re bogus.

So how fucked up in the head will he be now from prison? Netflix with have their next Making A Murderer.

R59, as already stated, yes. That's not what any of the suspicion on the person hinges on.

The Daily from the NYT has a great short podcast about why the conviction was vacated. They say the fact that the prosecutor committed a Brady Disclosure violation was enough to get the conviction tossed. But there were other things as well. There were two people who were viable suspects that they never investigated (one who actually said that he was going to kill Hae Min Lee). Jay changed his story numerous times. And experts looking at the cell phone data saw serious flaws, especially the analysis of incoming calls.’

Finally, one of the two lead detectives was convicted of evidence tampering on another case. Adnan may well have done it, but the evidence on which he was convicted was seriously flawed, enough for even the prosecutor to request the vacate.

Can Adnan sue Maryland for a wrongful sentence and spending 20+ years in prison?

It is similar to an OJ situation . A difference is that the police framed a guilty man in OJ's case. If one looks at the fact pattern of the case,it seems that Ad an is guilty. A botched investigation let him off and that is a shame.

As for Syed suing Maryland,that would open up discovery again. That would open up a can of worms that will probably jettison his case.

The state has a circumstantial case that put him away the first time, but that doesn't mean it's enough to successfully prosecute him again. This does NOT make him innocent however and it's my belief he is guilty.

IIRC, even the Serial producers themselves, on the last episode of the series, expressed their belief in his guilt on [Bold]a balance of probabilities[/Bold]. That last episode ties up the findings of the podcast nicely and it's worth listening to again. Classic Occam's Razor supposition.

r49 he seemed so guilty to me and seemed like a total charming narcissist on that podcast. However, the state botched this case majorly.

I wonder if they would come to the same conclusion, r65, with the knowledge that two suspects were not investigated and Jay continued to change his story.

I don't remember Serial ending with a belief that he was guilty. In fact, it seemed the opposite, Sarah seemed to have some feelings toward Adnan and that seemed to cloud how she viewed the case.

A lot of people keep saying that Adnan was clearly guilty or had motive, and yet I haven't heard anything that clearly points that he had motive or clearly says he did it. Not any more so than other possible suspects, like Don.

Adnan suing the State for what they did is not going to open a new can of worms. The Prosecution would never have been the ones to file a motion to have his sentence vacated if they had even the slightest case against him.

They're not going to re-try him no matter what.

Yeah, they don't have anything, r69. He may have done it, but their key pieces of evidence blew up in their face. Unless they get new evidence fast (and that's a gigantic IF), there will be no retrial.

Didn't listen to the SERIAL podcast, but I did watch an HBO documentary about this case and also came away thinking he was guilty.

He’s going to go full ISIS mode now and we’re all doomed. Fuck these bleeding hearts who think everyone deserves a second chance. There’s a shit ton of articles and documentaries on this, he did it, his family knew and they didn’t care because she wasn’t “good enough” for him.

Yeah fuck them, r72, we don't need evidence to convict anyone, we should just throw them in jail because you're sure he's guilty!

It's scary that people actually think that way and serve on juries.

He looks guilty to me...And these idiot Podcasters are twisted by their stupidity and ZERO evidence of innocence....

The Menendez Brothers need to be freed next. 30 years is plenty.

Apparently he doesn't look guilty to the Prosecution now. It's funny how so many arm chair Detectives have all the evidence that the Baltimore Police and Prosecutors couldn't get.

I think there was a lot of pressure on the prosecution to recommend vacating this judgment because of the nonstop documentaries, podcasts, articles. A jury convicted him (of course, a jury can be wrong) and none of the documentaries cast any real doubt on his guilt.

He looks like a criminal

Streaking is a criminal offense?

I wonder what Adnan was thinking about when he got raped by multiple mens the 1st time in prison!! Did he cry& scream as all those penises were forced into him?

Did he learn to suck cock like a pro or does he still gag? Do he like anal now& does he swallow?

Did he forgive all the smelly dirty Black mens who raped him repeatedly all those years? Wonder what his cum taste like, inquiring minds need to know!!

R78, untrue. The popularity of those documentaries and podcasts were years ago and the DA continued to decline allowing him another trial. The prosecution has pushed for him to vacate his sentence because evidence had come out that they kept evidence away from the defense that could have cleared Adnan. Additionally, there was evidence that two others suspects should have been investigated.

The prosecution knows they have nothing on him, that's why they decided to vacate his sentence. Otherwise, they would have just set another trial and kept him in prison.

Another Steve Avery.

If he is not guilty, then he's the unluckiest person on earth.

[quote]If he is not guilty, then he's the unluckiest person on earth.

No, that would probably be the victim in this.

How hard could have this be to solve? There were how many private detectives? How many cops? How many millions of listeners combing over every detail?

Nobody has cracked the case? She certainly didn’t kill and bury herself.

*How hard could this be?

Of course we are going to play up the gay angle here but the sugar daddy makes you wonder.

Maybe he couldn’t say where he was because the truth was worse than murder?

He would have had to beat up past girlfriends or stalking her or showing some other type of obsessive behavior.

R78, as others have said, not true. The prosecutor discovered the Brady disclosure breach just recently and immediately brought that to the attention of the higher ups. As said above, regardless of ANY evidence, even if they had a ton, that is grounds for voiding the verdict. And to not reveal that once they found the violation is a serious breach of judicial process.

It turns out they didn’t have a lot to begin with and the rest of the case fell apart. The breach involved the two suspects they didn’t investigate and Jay—the only witness—continued to change his story. The cell tower testimony was debunked by three experts. They have nothing to prosecute with at this point.

With advancements in DNA testing, I wonder if they found the DNA of another suspect on her

The exact details of the case are fuzzy to me now after all these years. I can't remember if I felt he was guilty or innocent, but there was definitely NOT a strong enough case to put him away for that long. It's all guesswork and assumptions and circumstantial hearsay. Which is why they've had to overturn the sentence. The classic white eldergay Datalounge response is just hilariously stupid though.... he definitely did it because he's muslim! *~*HONOR KILLINGS!!!!!!*~* Do you people get your news from Nancy Grace?

[quote] It turns out they didn’t have a lot to begin with and the rest of the case fell apart. The breach involved the two suspects they didn’t investigate and Jay—the only witness—continued to change his story. The cell tower testimony was debunked by three experts. They have nothing to prosecute with at this point.

The case WAS Jay’s testimony and the the cell phone data. Neither one would hold up on its own. When both are compromised, there’s nothing left.

[quote]Again, for the Prosecution to be the ones to put forward vacating a sentence, especially after 20 years of them denying a new trial, it's a big deal. They wouldn't do that if they actually thought they had a case.

I wonder how much of this is simply a reflection of the times we're living in right now where prosecutors are more interested in presenting a political agenda, rather than justice.

For 20 years, across many prosecuting regimes, they opted not to revisit this. Now, in this climate, a particular prosecution office has decided it's time to revisit a very high profile case.

From the way the podcast was presented, it certainly seemed like there were irregularities - but that may or may not have been for purely dramatic effect. Since the podcast, many people have reviewed this case, yet it's only now that someone has decided there was a problem. I can't help but wonder whether there aren't other agendas at play now, rather than simply a sudden burning need for justice.

I really hope that they do a followup to the original Serial podcast when the dust settles which includes interviews with all the principles currently involved.

Adnan was a 17 year old dumb high school jock who smoked a lot of pot. And that's exactly how he came across on the podcast, and probably why Sarah Koenig felt sorry for him. Maybe he did do it. But I felt like he was just a confused stoner trying to do his best to account for his time (and other witnesses accounted for him at the mosque and library). His story hasn't really changed at all which is unusual for a case like this, even when there was a very tempting push for him to either take a plea deal, or rot in prison for life.

There was a poster here years ago who laid out a very interesting and well-put-together theory of Hae's mother being involved, something about their relationship being extremely fraught and she wanted to run away with the boyfriend. Don the boyfriend and his mother clearly lied about a whole bunch of details (including the video store whereabouts). Then there is Jay, who was clearly fed the 'correct' story by the police. His recount changed multiple times and there were even pencil tapping sounds (to prompt him to correct words) in the background of his police interviews. The police even paid for Jay's lawyer, and he got in trouble with the law several times after that but never served time, all of which is highly unusual for a black male drug dealer. The lividity of her corpse also didn't match his obviously fake story about Adnan showing him the body. There was something completely off about that freak Stephanie (sp?), and I haven't even mentioned all the other weirdos like the streaker in the park who have just as much tying them to the case as Adnan.

Perhaps Adnan did do it, but what's clear is that the police & investigators had already decided that he did, and were never interested in exploring other options. The state never even investigated Hae's rape kit. Gutierrez was disbarred shortly after, Don went on to date one of Hae's friends and now is apparently too disabled to get a straight story. Yeah sure. They made their flop ass case, and this is the mess we are in. Poor Hae.

If you’re at all interested, Undisclosed has re-released its first three episodes.

R92, did you not read the part where they discovered a Brady disclosure violation? The PROSECUTOR found it. They were shocked when they found the info about the other suspects. There is no agenda here, they fucked it up. A Brady disclosure violation voids the verdict. Period. Should they have sat on it?

It really sounds like he is guilty but, based on technicalities, he's being let go. The facts of the case say he is not innocent of murdering a girl.

Do you think he enjoys sex with men now? I do love fucking Muslim men& being taken hard by them after prayers!! I knew 2 Muslim men in Philly that lived in West Philly& loved violating me over and over again. Love that Muslim beard on Adnan. The one man named Samir(my faggot terrorist-I called him that) loved to get violated by my huge while vibrator I used on his ass when he came alone.

R96, the facts in the case have been blown up. They hinged on Jay’s testimony, which he’s changed numerous times, and the cell phone analysis, which experts have said is wrong. There is no evidence now. Hence the verdict being voided. He might be guilty, but the prosecution has to go out and find new evidence.

R93 has a great summary btw…yes he may have done it but his conviction was based on facts that are now debunked. There were a lot of shenanigans done to get a guilty verdict.

[quote]A jury convicted him (of course, a jury can be wrong) and none of the documentaries cast any real doubt on his guilt.

A jury convicted him based on a case where the DA and the Police kept evidence away from them that there were other suspects who had more evidence against them than Adnan did. Same goes for all the podcasts and documentaries. You can't say any one's judgements are accurate because they knowingly kept important evidence about the case hidden.

I have no idea who killed Hae, and it Adnan was involved but the case against him was always flimsy as hell. So I have to consider it the right thing for justice that he is now free.

R93, I think I remember that thread where someone outlined they thought her mother might have been involved. I believe that person mentioned there was some kind of mark on her chest that could tie back to the mom? There was also something about an uncle owning an auto repair shop which could have hidden the car before dumping it off.

For those of you who think Adnan is guilty, why? Jay’s corrupt testimony and the cell phone pings were all they had to say he did it—-ZERO physical evidence. It also seems like some of the witnesses were coached by the prosecution as well, because their stories changed a bit from initially to trial to make Adnan seem more culpable.

The motive was flimsy at best for a 17 year old. They relied heavily on racism and ignored testimony of people saying he wasn’t that upset after the breakup to get that motive to fly.

So why exactly are some of so convinced he did it?

R103, I've asked the same question and never get an actual answer as to what his motives were.

They'll say he was her ex-Boyfriend and crazy jealous.... yet no accounts show that he was obsessed with her or trying to get her back. Their friends all say Adnan had moved on and was dating other women.

They'll point to that he can't remember where he was. That doesn't mean he had motive or that he did it. He was an admitted stoner. I personally also wonder if the rumors about the older guy he had a friendship with were true, and that's why he doesn't want to say where he actually was (what adult buys a kid a cell phone.. especially in 1999?).

There are way more questions surrounding the victim's current boyfriend and yet, no one raises an eye about him.

I think his father did it or, most likely, had someone do it for him because Hae dishonored the family by dating Adnan in the first place and then breaking up with him. I can't believe nobody considered that possibility (unless I missed something), although I'm sure there would be lethal consequences for anyone who would attempt to reveal that, and the layers of protection for such cadres probably run deep. I would not be surprised if that is the eventual outcome.

R105 His father didn’t know they were even dating. In the HBO documentary, it shows how they dated in secret and lied to their families, which Hae hated and was vocal about in her journal, and I think that was part of the reason for the breakup.

His father supposedly found out about the relationship when Adnan was questioned or arrested.

R106, well, he would claim that if he was guilty, wouldn’t he?

I’ve never understood why no one seems to think that Jay did it. He’s by far the most obvious suspect. He knew Hae was dead by strangulation long before she was found and led police to her car.

People say, “He had no motive”, but how do we know that? Just because we don’t know what it was doesn’t mean there wasn’t one. And he could easily have made the Nisha call by messing with Adnan’s phone.

I think she (Hae) got in his car, he tried it on, she rebuffed him and he strangled her. He told his friend Jen some of the story but blaming Adnan, not expecting her to ever talk to the police. Adnan’s great tragedy was that he was a 17 year old stoner who couldn’t remember much about the day when questioned about it 6 weeks later.

(Sorry I don’t know how to do quotes): “He’s by far the most obvious suspect.”

The police/prosecutor thought so too, r108, hence their overlooking evidence to the contrary, coaching witnesses, overlooking others with similar motive (one who actually said he was going to kill Hae) and using bad cell phone analysis.

Oh lord. I keep fucking up. I need reading glasses. Or I’m losing my little mind. This is the second time in as many days that I misread someone’s post. Apologies r108. I read your post as saying Adnan was by far the most obvious suspect.

R82 is correct. The prosecution's office did not budge despite the popularity of Serial (and the MD AG just publicly denounced his release). Syed had exhausted all his appeals, and SCOTUS refused to review his case. It was over.

What opened up this opportunity was a new law in MD that has nothing to do with Syed. MD now allows prisoners who were convicted for crimes committed while still juveniles to seek early release after serving 20 years. His attorney put in a request for that--NOT that he'd been wrongly convicted, but that he should get early release. As part of the review, the court and prosecutor's office are supposed to consider a number of factors specific to the crime and the defendant. It was the new local prosecutor reviewing the case from scratch who discovered the discrepancies and the Brady violation (which the MD AG still denies) and unlike her predecessors was not willing to continue covering it up.

R110 Ha! I did have to read your post a couple of times to make sense of it!

It’s ages since I listened to the podcast, so probably I’ve forgotten something major that means it can’t have been Jay. Have I?

[quote]It was the new local prosecutor reviewing the case from scratch who discovered the discrepancies and the Brady violation (which the MD AG still denies) and unlike her predecessors was not willing to continue covering it up.

Kinda. The current Baltimore State's Attorney (who lost her primary so is on her way out) established a Conviction Integrity Unit to review cases, and hired a woman who's been a public defender to run it, and it was she who made all the discoveries when Adnan's lawyer petitioned for a sentencing review.

That said, Marilyn Mosby, the outgoing State's Attorney, utterly clapped back at the AG.

Quoting, btw, is:

[quote] Open square bracket, no space, word “quote”, no space, close square bracket, space, text you’re quoting. You need to do this before every paragraph of quotes (if more than one).

[quote] [ quote ] Blah (without the spaces in the brackets). Like that.

R112, I haven’t heard the podcast in awhile, but I don’t think there was anything that ruled Jay out.

[quote] Quoting, btw, is

Thank you, r114!

That’s what I thought, R115. And it confuses me that so few people, including Adnan it seems, is willing to accuse him.

He admitted seeing Hae’s body. Persistently lied about his whereabouts. Told Jen Hae was dead that same evening & then led the police to her car.

Addding Adnan to the narrative explains nothing, just raises more questions.

I have no idea what his motive would be but I doubt premeditation. He was in Adnan’s car with Adnan’s phone. Maybe he got bored, drove to the school to maybe see Adnan after classes, saw Hae driving out in her car and then followed her. Maybe she saw Adnan’s car behind her & pulled over. Could be as simple as that.

Seems like the police did help Jay along with his timings…to fit the cell tower pings - but that doesn’t exonerate him. He obviously saw that they had Adnan in the frame & went along with whatever they suggested.

Honestly - I think this was probably Jay, acting alone.

R108 between all the different coverage on this, I thought there was possible motive for Jay to do it because the victim knew he had cheated on his girlfriend and she had threatened to tell her?

R115 wasn't that because for some odd reason none of the podcasts really ever treated Jay like a suspect at all? It feels like they only ever considered him an accessory.

Which, by the way, I could never get over how casual everyone seemed to be about about Jen and Jay knowing a murder was going to happen, and in Jay's situation, assisting with it, and in Jen's situation, helping to cover it up. Everyone acted like it was a normal fucking thing that anyone would do.

[quote]A jury convicted him (of course, a jury can be wrong) and none of the documentaries cast any real doubt on his guilt.

Going back to this, when Serial interviewed one of the Jurors, she said she voted to convict Adnan because Jay just seemed so believable. When asked if it would have made a difference to know that Jay changed his story multiple times or that the Cell Phone Tower pings were unreliable, I believe that juror did say it would have probably changed her certainty that Adnan did it.

[quote]Don went on to date one of Hae's friends and now is apparently too disabled to get a straight story.

That was one of the weirdest things I remember about the HBO story on this. Don never bothered to try to call his missing girlfriend or see where she is... but then proceeds to have a 9 hour phone conversation with one of her friends. I don't recall if they said he ended up dating that friend, but the friend in the interview seemed totally guilty like some shady stuff went down between them while her best friend was missing.

R120, knowing that Jay’s testimony not only changed but was the result of his work with a police officer who was accused of serious misconduct, that the cell phone tower pings were unreliable, that there were other potential suspects, that no physical evidence connected Adnan to the crime . . . It’s hard to believe anyone would have voted to convict him.

It's amazing how quickly people can fall prey to the "oh, the killer got off on a technicality" thinking, when those "technicalities" often raise serious due process or evidentiary concerns.

Agree, R119 - you’re completely right, Jay was discussed as if he was an accessory. And I really don’t understand why.

Everyone seems to be hung up on a) Jay had no motive and b) the Nisha call.

A is irrelevant (we don’t know what we don’t know) and B is meaningless. Jay had Adnan’s phone all day and Nisha’s number was saved to speed dial. A cell phone was a bit of a novelty back then and Jay could have been playing around with it: “I wonder if Nisha sounds hot over the phone” or, “Who’s Nisha?” etc. Jay not knowing Nisha does not prove that he didn’t call her, which everyone seems to be saying.

Perplexing.

R124, yeah that seems weird that no one ever thinks that Jay could have just randomly been pressing buttons, having never used a cell phone before, and just accidentally called it. It also could have easily been a pocket dial.

Wasn't there also some discrepancy about Jen's testimony? It was either Jen or the woman who said that Adnan was in her apartment after the murder smoking pot. Something came out about how it couldn't have possibly been that date because when looking at records, the witness was in the town over attending a seminar/conference for school.

Just found this on Reddit..lsomeone laying out how Jay could have done it. It’s a post that’s 8 years old, but it makes sense to me.

Thanks for posting that, R127. I can see how that can be believable. It also shows how quickly a story can be crafted to fit certain "facts," and make any story sound believable.

The one thing that this doesn't explain is the body. This story basically says it all happened as Jay said it did, with the body in the trunk, etc. However they're pretty sure, because of the way the body was found, that it was not in a trunk all that time, but rather an open space, face down.

True, R128. Maybe she was initially left lying on the back seat of the car, covered with a coat or something. Maybe she was never in the trunk at all.

I’ll have to listen to the podcast again to remember the facts. I suspect the unreliable cell phone pings have been promoting a false narrative or what happened when. It could all be much simpler than anyone’s realised.

Were there really all that accurate about cadaver conditions back then? I always take that stuff with a grain of salt.

[quote]I agree that Jay's motive to strangle a bright & beautiful girl may seem implausible, (less plausible than spurned exlover) but it makes more sense if you bring back presumption of innocence to Adnan, focus your suspicion only on Jay (and look at his mental state about his current status as broke drug dealer who has money for weed, but not a stuffed animal for his "Model Beautiful/Prom Princess "GF on her bday...whose strange background, includes a weird stabbing of a "friend" just because "he'd never been stabbed before"

I had forgotten that part about stabbing his friend. Who is to say he didn't on a whim decide to just strangle someone because he had never done it before?

Didn't Jen say she hated Hae but didn't even know her that well? I mean I know she's a crack head, but her behaviour in the documentary was really odd. Stephanie also dated Adnan in middle school and I always wondered if there was a possibility she convinced Jay to get rid of her out of jealousy. Jay seemed like the type of person who was a bit different and wanted to prove he could do crazy things. The Dennis Rodman comparison, the impulsive behaviour. He was a bit emo.

Anyway, according to this new motion, there are two people they are clearly looking at, one of whom actually said they were going to kill her and apparently had a motive. This is what the police tried to cover up. Who could this be?

Annan did it. To a spoiled Muslim "prince," a woman is completely expendable, especially if she dishonored him by cheating on him.

Muslim men's treatment of women is passed on from father to son. The son watches the subservience of his mother, and is treated better than girls in the family.

Annan probably feels he isn't guilty. He had a right to defend his honor. That's why he proclaims his innocence.

It's funny how much weight Jay's testimony was given, considering how often he lies and his story changes. By contrast, Adnan's story has never changed, not once. You'd think he would have been caught in at least one lie about the events.

I mean, if you listen to the episodes of Undisclosed, it’s pretty obvious that things couldn’t happen in the way they described. But they took the bad cell phone data and coached Jay to revise his story in order to fit their timeline. I think they said Jay told 8 different versions of events, including the interview he gave to the Intercept (which the author had to revise twice).

There’s not even any real proof that Hae was killed the day she disappeared.

R133 spoken like a true racist who doesn’t care about facts or lack of evidence against Adnan.

The thing about it being someone else altogether….that does not explain Jay.

If neither Jay nor Adnan had anything at all to do with Hae’s disappearance and murder then that means that Jay chose to implicate himself and his friend in the death of a girl he barely knew, hadn’t seen that day & had no actual reason to believe (at that stage) was dead at all.

It’s absurd. That never happened.

Given the facts, the only rational explanation is that it was either Jay acting alone or Jay and Adnan.

There is no evidence of any kind implicating Adnan. None at all. He hasn’t been caught in a lie, nor was he seen to have been behaving oddly that day. The fact that he can’t give concrete explanations for where he was and at what time tends towards exoneration rather than implication, logically. If he’d killed Hae I’m pretty sure he’d have at least tried to nail down a story to give police. He didn’t. He told the truth - that he simply couldn’t remember what he’d been doing 6 weeks ago. Sure, he’d received an unusual call from the police, but he was stoned - AND he was a standard 17 year old boy with a sieve for a brain. My two nephews (16 and 19) can’t remember with any specificity what they were doing yesterday, let alone 6 weeks ago.

To my mind, this can only have been Jay. For reasons we can only guess at he encountered Hae, killed her, asked for help from Jen but couldn’t tell her what he’d done so blamed Adnan, not realising she’d pass that information to the police (she didn’t the first time they spoke to her). The police believed Jay - fuck knows why - & helped shape the narrative from then on. I cannot see any other explanation that makes sense.

Adnan not blaming Jay,is interesting. If he isn’t guilty then he, like the rest of us, has no earthly idea what happened to Hae. All he knows is that Jay lied, but he doesn’t know why. He even suggested that at first he thought Jay was after the reward. Now he probably thinks the police manipulated him…which they largely did. But that doesn’t make Jay innocent, and never did.

Those that are believers that Adnan most certainly did it never give any reason as to why they actually believe he did it or what solidly proves he did.

What trips me up is if one is to believe that Adnan is a Genius Mastermind who planned this all out... why wasn't he smart enough to come up with a solid alibi? He had 6 weeks from the murder to when they found the body to come up with something. Surely someone who is brilliant enough to plan out and cover up a murder would have spent some time thinking up a story to give himself a cover. Certainly he'd come up with something smarter than, "no idea where I was, I can't remember."

The other thing is his story never changed. In 20 years, his story is consistent and he's never once been caught in a lie.. as opposed to Jay who has been caught lying multiple times.. Yet for some reason, people will jump to Jay's defense and say he's more believable. Makes no sense.

Exactly, R138. Exactly.

R137 the other possibility is Jay didn't do it, but police had something else on him to get him to cooperate with turning on Adnan. Not an uncommon tactic, it's used all the time (the classic example is the prison snitch). That's basically what happened to Ruben Carter (The Hurricane)--when police linked Bradley and Bello to the burglary of a nearby building, suddenly they were ready to say Carter was the shooter. They also denied in court the deals and money they had been promised in exchange.

That would also explain why Adnan doesn't try to point at Jay--he doesn't believe Jay did it, just that Jay lied.

R140 But that doesn’t work either. Jay was telling Jen that Hae was dead (by strangulation) and Adnan did it before the police even knew she was missing and long before they suspected Adnan.

That’s the key to this….Jay demonstrating that he knew Hae had been murdered before anyone else even knew she was missing. If Jay didn’t do it then he was inventing a story about a girl he didn’t know was missing that later turned out to be true.

Impossible. It was Jay. Must have been. I wonder if the prosecutors are using the “alternative suspects” line as a way of not alerting Jay to the fact that they’re on to him.

R141, I can't remember the actual timeline that involved Jen. Do we actually believe anything that she said about her involvement as being true? Or is it possible she would just lie and go along with whatever Jay told her?

Re: Alternative suspects, I don't think that not naming them is to throw Jay off. Surely, by the details they have given out, he'd know if it's him. Especially if the car was found behind HIS family's house.

^ I admittedly don't remember all the details well, but it's not hard to imagine Jenn could also be induced to play along. Wasn't she panicking about being implicated as well?

Well, I’m wondering if I’m misremembering the facts, tbh R140/142.

IIRC - someone makes an anonymous call to the police implicating Adnan (some weeks after Hae is found) and his (Adnan’s) call logs are pulled as a result. Jen’s number is on there so she’s brought in for questioning but denies knowing anything. As she leaves the police say, “Everyone is a suspect and no one is a suspect” which worries her so she’s comes back the next day with a lawyer and her mother.

She then tells the police that on the day Hae went missing, Jay told her that Adnan had strangled Hae and had asked him to help bury the body. Jay now needed Jen’s help to get rid of his clothes and the shovel he used.

Jay’s then pulled in and after initial denials then “comes clean” (his words) and comfirms what Jen said. He later leads the police to Hae’s car.

So, yes, Jen could be lying, but it’s extremely difficult to understand why. If she and Jay were conspiring to frame Adnan then a) why? and b) why did they wait for the police to come to them, both initially deny everything and then - more or less - tell the same story? Both of them could be charged as accessories after the fact (Jay was) and Jen’s lawyer would have advised her of that. It just doesn’t make a whit of sense.

Why do all that for something that never happened? Because if Jay and Adnan are entirely innocent then Jay and Jen basically implicated themselves, not to mention Adnan, in a serious crime for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Most likely Jay killed Hae, called Jen for help and spun a tale about it being Adnan, swore her to secrecy and then, when she blabbed, had to stick to that…embroidering and inventing as he went, resulting in a completely inconsistent narrative.

I could be completely wrong, but I feel certain the details the prosecution are giving out are a bluff & that it’s Jay they have in their sights. Reason I think that is that if they have an “alternative suspect” then they have fuck all chance of convicting him. In any trial they’ll get Jay on the stand as fast as possible, along with Jen, and ask them all the questions I’m asking, for which they’ll have no adequate answer. “Oh yes, I completely lied that my friend strangled his girlfriend and pleaded guilty to being an accessory after the fact because..er…because…” That’s reasonable doubt right there.

Adnan’s case is the most famous in the world, along with Stephen Avery. Him getting out has made headlines around the world and they need to give a reason for it. If there’s any hint from them that they think it was Jay (and they’re right) he could run or kill himself. Probably the details they are giving are real facts that have emerged during investigation but I doubt they are as significant as they are suggesting…it’s a smokescreen to keep Jay from freaking.

This could be total bullshit & I’ve read it wrong, but my money is on Jay being arrested within the next few weeks. Or sooner. Just have to wait and see.

[quote]So, yes, Jen could be lying, but it’s extremely difficult to understand why.

She panics? They have her on something--maybe even something not related to Hae's murder. If the police orchestrated the story, the whole timeline of who said what to them when is suspect.

I'm not saying I think Jay didn't do it, I'm just saying when law enforcement is shady, all bets are off.

Oh, I definitely agree about the shady law enforcement. They absolutely helped Jay’s narrative along. No doubt in my mind about that.

But when Jen was first pulled in and she told them the truth - that she knew nothing about Hae’s disappearance, how did she go from there to…”Well, they know x about me so maybe I’d better go back with my lawyer and implicate myself and two others in a capital murder case”?

And if it was a police invention from the beginning & they were using Jen & Jay to implicate Adnan, then why does Jay’s story keep changing?

Sorry…not being one of those “I’ve got all the answers” type, just puzzling through it. Most perplexing matter.

I'm assuming the police somehow fed her the story they wanted as opposed to she came up with it on her own. "We're not after you, just tell us how Jay and Adnan were involved and you won't be in any trouble." Then get Jay to turn on Adnan.

Well, I think if we go under the belief that the Police were using Jay to implicate Adnan, then it's not a far fetched idea that his story keeps changing because the evidence kept changing, and the police needed him to change the story to match it (hence the tap tap tapping).

Re: Jen's involvement. I'm on board that it seems odd that she would implicate herself in any way... but then I also have to stop and remember this. Even if her original story is true... she willingly helped her friend cover up, hide evidence, and stayed silent about a murder he was involved in. So that right there already illustrates what kind of person she is and what she's willing to do to help a "friend," out. So if she's willing to take part in the cover up of a murder, and not think twice about it, wouldn't she also be someone willing to just lie and implicate herself in order to protect Jay?

R146, there have been a lot of studies of how the police draw out false testimony. As you might expect, they usually don’t develop a story in detail and then give it to a witness or suspect to recite. They draw out what they want, or what they think they want, through suggestive or coercive questioning. You’d have to look at how Jay’s story changed, but it’s possible some of the changes were made due to how the evidence developed over time, and to Jay’s own confusion about what he needed to say.

R147, if I recall correctly, Jay is the one that told her to go to the Police and told her exactly how much to say.

At that point, Jay could have already been in touch with the BPD, he had apparently been an informant for them before. It could have been entirely set up to support Jay's eventual testimony and make it more believable that his story about Adnan was true.

Let's not forget that the BPD and the Detectives involved in this case have previously been caught in falsifying evidence and arrests.

[quote]So that right there already illustrates what kind of person she is and what she's willing to do to help a "friend," out. So if she's willing to take part in the cover up of a murder, and not think twice about it, wouldn't she also be someone willing to just lie and implicate herself in order to protect Jay?

I meant to add I dont see it being odd she'd lie and implicate herself if she were already willing to make herself an accessory to murder for him (if the story is true).

But, R148, if Jay (and Adnan) had no involvement whatsoever then there was no evidence that “kept changing” so no need for the police to coach anything out of Jay. All they had to do is tell him what to say.

This is what we need to bear in mind….if Jay & Adnan were not involved at all then everything concerning them that day has no relevance to anything. Doesn’t matter where the cell pinged, where they went, who they talked to or what they did. They didn’t do it so “evidence” relating to them is no more relevant than evidence of what Sarah Koenig was doing, or Adnan’s second cousin’s sister’s mother.

We are not talking about the police leaning on anyone here - they’d have to be inventing a narrative out of thin air and setting out to engage two teenagers in a complicated conspiracy. All to implicate another teenager, for no real reason.

Sorry, no, can’t buy that. Not because I don’t think the police are capable of being shady but this would be ridiculous. Too much over-egging of the pudding for what is a comparatively straightforward matter.

Occam’s Razor - the simplest explanation, with the fewest added ingredients, tends to be correct.

Jay killed Hae. Lied and said Adnan did it. Police believed him because a) Adnan was the ex-boyfriend and a Muslim, so they had tunnel vision and b) the pings of the cellphone vaguely fit one of Jay’s many narratives. Simple as that.

I wonder if we’ll ever get an answer. I still think they’ll arrest Jay, but we’ll see.

Did Sarah Koenig ever come right out and say whether she thought Adnan was guilty or innocent after the podcast ended?

It's strange that reporting on the story has now made her inextricably a part of the story.

R133 That is such a tired, prejudiced old trope. Adnan was like 99% of Muslim American kids born in the US. Most of them have embraced their American side and are like Adnan: smoking, drinking, fucking, playing football or doing typical teen stuff. They just have the added burden of balancing their lives with their first generation immigrant parents’ cultural expectations. I highly doubt the 17 year old second son of a middle class Muslim family, who was on his way to college, was fixated on a girl he dated for a few months when there was a literal smorgasboard of babes waiting for him in college.

Maybe Don did it. He had scratches on his arms and his mother was the manager at Lens Crafters who provided his alibi. You don’t go from cute guy to this unless you’re messed up in the head:

R152 but isn't the narrative that they had the cell phone records as their evidence and they were trying to get Jay to create a story that matched that. The cell phone records is the only evidence that they had to blame it on Adnan.

And either Serial or Undisclosed pointed out that the BPD was under a lot of pressure because of the high crime rate and they were known for falsely accusing people just to bump up their solved cases.

And just so we're clear, I'm not saying I don't think Jay was involved, I think he was, but I don't think he did it alone. I still feel like Don had something to do with it.

R154 not to mention he has some mysterious injury that has not allowed him to work since his 20s. Could it have been from a victim fighting back?

Further, it's suspicious he never tried to get a hold of his missing girlfriend.. not once.. but instead proceeded to have a strange, 9 hour phone conversation with one of her friends whom he never met.

[quote]Maybe Don did it. He had scratches on his arms and his mother was the manager at Lens Crafters who provided his alibi. You don’t go from cute guy to this unless you’re messed up in the head:

Holy cats!

Also, it's always bothered me that at no point during Serial did anyone point out the fact that Don was an adult man dating a teenager.

R158 Hae was 18, Don was 22. Sorry, but that’s not remotely shocking. It’s not like she was 13 or something.

R158, they did remark that he was older and that it was slightly uncomfortable when one of her friends went on a double date with them. But it also wasnt that weird, especially in the 90s for teenagers to date men in their 20s.

I'm still more disturbed at how no one bats an eye about Jay and Jen casually assisting with a murder and not thinking it's any big deal. Even the people around them dont ever seem to stop and think about how fucking weird that is.

I’m liking this Jay did it explanation, but the thing is SO many witnesses acted F’ing weird in this case. Debbie talked to Don for 7 hours (not 9), when Hae went missing and then met up with Don in person and in the HBO documentary she says she wasn’t interested in him and then doesn’t remember what happened after they met up to talk. Uh huh. What the fuck?

Don didn’t call Hae when he heard she was missing and his alibi seems fake (he didn’t have to produce the timesheet for his work that day for several weeks or months after they found Hae’s body).

The Sellers guy who found Hae was not just going to pee somewhere and randomly saw her—he has a history of streaking and I wonder if he went to do a drug deal or masturbate or streak.

These are all crazy. This case was seriously as if the universe threw together the most sketchy set of detectives and witnesses you could possibly imagine and threw them all together in a soup.

Poor Adnan! Caught in the middle of some fucked up friendships and relationships.

Having your mother provide your alibi on a capital offense seems ridiculous.

Anyone who has ever watched Law and Order should find it immediately suspicious.

Now he can get a cashier job at a covenience store.

[quote]I’m liking this Jay did it explanation, but the thing is SO many witnesses acted F’ing weird in this case. Debbie talked to Don for 7 hours (not 9), when Hae went missing and then met up with Don in person and in the HBO documentary she says she wasn’t interested in him and then doesn’t remember what happened after they met up to talk. Uh huh. What the fuck?

That whole thing FELT weird watching it. It seemed like the obvious elephant in the room was that they fucked.

R163. He won't need to work. He'll be getting millions from the state.

R161, not to mention she sdays that Don then said he thought he was in love with her (Deb). But she wasnt sure if he actually was or if he was just trying to recapture something with her dead friend. Seriously what the?

Just read something interesting re: which came first, Jen's testimony to Police or Jay's.

Jen in her testimony to police tells them that Jay told her the murder happens at the Best Buy.

Jay later says that he only said the murder happened at Best Buy because the police told him to say it and Best Buy was never actually a thing.

So which is it? Did the Police talk to Jay prior to talking to Jen and feed him that information? Or is Jay once again just being a lying liar?

I agree with you all that Don is shady as fuck and ought to be a very good suspect but…

….Jay knew Hae had been murdered by strangulation before anyone knew she was missing. This needs an explanation & I can’t really buy that Jen just made that up. If you panic because the police have something on you, why on earth would you draw even more attention to yourself by showing up with your lawyer to implicate yourself and two innocent friends in a murder case that none of you had anything to do with? This doesn’t pass the sniff test for me.

R168, well something else that's been brought up is that it's unclear when Jay told Jen about the murder. She says that he told her the night of, but when pressed further, her response is, "If you say it was the13th, it was the 13th.' She doesn't actually remember or know the actual day that Jay told her this information.

And going back to what Jen is willing or not willing to do, remember, 1) she is someone who is willing to stay quiet about and help cover up a murder and acts as it is just an everyday thing. 2) she didn't necessarily lie... everything she tells the police is what Jay told her. She even says she never saw any of it. Even when she took Jay to wipe prints off shovels, she never actually say any shovels. Jay could have easily lied about all of it.

Test R114:

[quote]Quoting, btw, is:

The white guy did it.

There's discussion on one of the boards about why would Jay, if he wasn't involved at all, claim that he was? And would the BPD really just feed him information about the case?

This was an interesting response:

[quote]It's not even that. For Jay it's serve many more years for drug charges he was threatened with, or possibly be charged for murder himself (as Urick made clear would happen) or turn.

Like, Jay even recently (2020) said he had to "give up Adnan" because the cops were threatening him with hefty drug charges.

So why do Guilters believe him in 1999 but say he's lying now? Isn't that hilarious!

There are other explanations here too:

Not to mention Det. Ritz was caught in the 2010s and 2000s blacking mailing people to make false statements and testimonies in courts to secure his arrests and convictions. This is UNDEBATABLE information. Guilters struggle a lot with comprehending that the BPD is evil and corrupt and has had people in the stands in now overturned convictions that literally told 100% lies to get out of trouble if their own.

(Many guilters seem to forget that Jay was pulled over before they brought him in to talk about Hae - for drug possession. Guess how much time he did for that arrest? Guess who never heard about it? Anyone.)

Remember - Jay never had his own lawyer. He never got legal advice from anyone until Urick provided him one as a favor.

Remember, Jay has committed some heinous crimes that getting away with as a black man in America let alone Baltimore? Is unheard of.

The same people that say Jay is credible after all this and his lies are very very quick to tell you Asia McClain who has no criminal record, no history of lying, friends and family who vouch for her integrity - is a lying grifter.

No use in discussing shit with them.

[quote]I don't know how people gloss over the fact that Jay isn't even consistent on things like whether they buried the body in the day or night. If Adnan did it, this really shouldn't be that hard. The most straightforward explanation is that he was fed information and never fully understood what the timeline of the murder was supposed to be. That's why he has never gotten the details straight. That's why the further he gets from the the initial contact with the cops the more everything warps. That's why when he gives an interview after the court case is over and there's not even lawyers to help him along, he completely flips the entire story. He just never knew what was supposed to have happened.

Rabia breaks it down on WNYC.

[quote] I don't know how people gloss over the fact that Jay isn't even consistent on things like whether they buried the body in the day or night.

I just pulled this out to show people how you can twist someone's words to make them seem like a lie or a retraction.

It's summertime and 7:30 pm and still completely daylight out. Is that day or night?

I have seen the police and prosecutors take innocuous or statements which can mean more than one thing and rather than try clarifying what was meant, instead use the statement to call someone a liar. It is a time-honored practice used when you want to undermine someone's statements. In almost any case where the purpose is to "exonerate" someone this is done all the time.

The investigation that led to Syed's release was focused exclusively on freeing him. it was never meant to be an objective and independent investigation. And it wasn't.

Just saying. Don't take a slanted argument at face value.

Unless another suspect is named and linked to Hae's murder, this guy did it. I mean, the only other scenario is that Jay lied about everything for the real murderer and implicated Adnan. But why would anyone want Hae murdered? Apparently she wasn't sexually assaulted so maybe it wasn't a sex crime (unless she fought off her attacker and was killed in the process). In an early episode, Adnan says he leant Jay his car so that he could buy Jen a birthday gift, but in a much later episode it's stated that Jay and Adnan weren't really that close. Who lends someone they're not that close to, their car? If Adnan killed her, he's done his time. Twenty plus years for a murder committed by a minor is probably sentence enough. Unless another suspect emerges, then the Baltimore PD and DA's offices are gonna have some lawsuits on their hands.

R168 Jen was interviewed AFTER Hae's body was found. In fact, everyone was interviewed after her body was found so it's very easy to know several things about her murder after the fact, including where her body was found and how she was killed. If you remember, the only thing that Jay really knew is where Hae's car was parked, that's it. Obviously this crime is taking a major turn right now, so it's gonna be real interesting to see who, if anyone is finally arrested and how Jay plays into all of that.

R138 On the day Hae went missing, detectives called Adnan around 6:30 pm to ask if he knew where she was. Adnan stated he was supposed to get a ride home from her after school, but got detained and she left. A little more than two weeks later and when asked about this, Adnan changed his story and stated that he didn't ask Hae for a ride that day and that he was in school that afternoon. And this from someone who claims he doesn't remember that day. Sarah asked him about this and he stated from prison, that he wouldn't have asked Hae for a ride that day because "everyone knows" that she picks up her little cousin from school everyday. Adnan did lie. He lied about asking Hae for a ride that day, but only after she hadn't been seen over several weeks. I'm less inclined to believe he didn't commit this crime, and unless another suspect emerges that can definitively be linked to her murder, Adnan probably did it.

There is no DNA of Adnan’s on Hae’s body. They tested it this year and found DNA of a few other individuals.

If Adnan did it, why didn’t he implicate Jay if Jay helped? And why does he distance himself from Jay?

The one thing really bothering me about the Jay Did It narrative is that the racist, corrupt police worked so hard with this Black teen nobody who didn’t have a community behind him and wasn’t upstanding compared to Adnan who was selling drugs when they could’ve tossed him in jail and thrown away the key, case closed. Why? Why did they protect Jay, pay for his lawyer, give him the reward, and not think he did it? Is it because they were tipped off about Adnan first? Not sure about the timing of the anonymous tip and Jays confession to being an accomplice or accessory or whatever but we know cops don’t treat Black men well so it’s weird that everything went in the direction it did.

R179 Jay had apparently been an informant for them before, and seemed to have a prior relationship with the police force (unlike Adnan or the others who were mostly considered good kids).

The fact that someone other than Adnan is quoted as saying they were going to kill her (per this new junction) and apparently has a motive, has me thinking that Jay or Don are more likely. It's also interesting to me that Hae's brother has commented but not her mother - especially as some have felt she should be a suspect too given her history of abuse and control over her daughter.

R175 why are you distorting the drastic changes in Jay's story to make it seem far more nuanced?

Among many other major changes to his story, Jay testified that they buried Hae around 7pm. In an interview with the Intercept he said they buried her around midnight. (He also said in that interview it was starting to get dark by 4pm that day, so much for being confused by daylight at 7:30.)

Unless you're in the Arctic Circle, questioning that change is not about being excessively pedantic about what constitutes "daytime."

R175, what are you going on about? The time of the burial isn't a simple misconstruing of was the sun out or not equaling day/night. Jay's story changes from burying the body at something like 6pm vs after midnight. He gives specific times and then changes it.. as he does with most of his stories.

It's like how he says he saw the body in the trunk of the car at his Grandmother's house. He then changes his story to say that it was at Best Buy parking lot. He then again changes his story and says that it was never at Best Buy and that he made that up.

There's a lot we don't know about the case. There's a lot of uncertainty. The only thing we know for sure is that Jay lies.. he lies a lot. And badly.

R178 the thing about that though is that apparently there is speculation that Adnan never changed his story about that. There is some question about the only reference to him asking/not asking for the ride was in a written note from one of the Detectives, and the handwriting doesn't match the same writing of the rest of the dated note (speculation that the Detective wrote it in after the fact). Whether this is true or not, I have no idea, however the two Detectives in the case apparently have a long history of faking evidence and blackmailing witnesses to lie about events (under threat that if they didn't, they would be arrested under false charges for other things).

Apparently several of their cases in the 2000s and 2010s were overturned when it was discovered how much they lied about and faked evidence.

What amazes me is this perfect storm of fucked up characters attached to this story. If you wrote a show about this, people would say it was too far fetched.

[quote]Unless another suspect is named and linked to Hae's murder, this guy did it.

They already have two additional suspects, at this point unnamed, however, people have guessed based on the clues provided, and it seems accurate.

The Prosecution says there were two other suspects that were more viable than Adnan but never actually investigated properly. One was a man who had failed a polygraph and the other one was someone who is already in jail, and committed SA crimes, after this murder. The victim's car was also found parked behind one of the suspect's family members home.

The first suspect is most likely Mr. S, which was referenced in the Serial Podcast. He is the man that found the body and had a criminal record for streaking. The Podcast mentioned that he had taken two polygraph tests and failed one. People have also said they have been able to tie his family's home to the address that the victim's car was found at.

The second suspect, the one that is in Jail, is a man named Bilal, a mentor of Adnan's. He's the older, adult that bought Adnan the phone and would rent motel rooms for Adnan. Apparently he was a groomer who was later caught with a 14 year old in a van. He is currently in prison for sexually assaulting victims while they were in his care. He's a dentist who would put people under and then assault them. They only found out because one of his victims woke up early to the Dentist's penis in his mouth.

This guy is the one who most think probably stated that he was going to have the victim killed. He may have done it out of jealousy or because he felt Adnan was slighted.

If this guy is the one involved, I would find it hard to believe that Adnan had no clue about it.

[quote]"At the hearing, though, Feldman went further, stating that this alternate suspect had motive, means, and opportunity to kill Hae Min Lee. I first got this detail from the update episode of the Serial Podcast (at about 8:30). A journalist who was at the hearing then confirmed that Feldman had said these exact words: "Suspect had motive opportunity and means to commit this crime."This is a shocking statement and one that raises strong suspicion that this alternate suspect killed Hae. "

R184 holy shit the amount of creepy characters surrounding both Adnan and Hae is unbelievable. It's obvious the dentist gave Adnan gifts in exchange for sex...

Listening to Don's remarks years after the crime, he really doesn't sound guilty. And his obesity is probably caused by whatever injury he suffered at 23. He says he doesn't care what people think of his alibi, he knows he will be dead sometime soon and worries about his wife and kids.

R187, I still think he sounds suspicious. Just another character surrounding the victim that had all sorts of weird, fucked up things surrounding him.

I cant get past the following things with Don:

He claims he was working and when it turned out he wasnt scheduled he claimed he was working at another location. When asked to provide a time card, it was approved by his mother.

He never once tried to call the victim after she went missing. People make a big deal about Adnan not reaching out to her but I find it more suspect that her current boyfriend never bothered, but instead had a 6 hour phone conversation with one of her friends, that he had never met.

Third thing is that a co-worker of his said that the following day, he had weird scratch marks on him that he couldn't/wouldn't explain.

R186 if it is the man that was his mentor, I can see why Adnan either participated or could have suspected it was him and never said anything. I think if he had been abusing Adnan or they had some kind of sexual relationship, he probably felt like it would be more acceptable in his family and culture to be in prison for a murder he may or may not have committed, then to reveal that he had any sort of sexual relationship (abuse or not) with another man.

R189 that would be some crazy shit if went to prison rather than saying he was having sex with a man during that time.

But it was a different time back then. It’s possible.

This whole thing is weird af.

Did Adnan get into fights a lot? Was he violent with women?

He didn’t just snap one day. Whoever it was most likely had a violent history.

R190, that’s why the other two suspects, who have criminal records, are so interesting. One of them, as R184 mentions, is currently locked up for sexual assault.

We heard from all the people around the podcast what does Anand say. I don’t remember the podcast.

You would think he would be shouting from the rooftops of his innocence.

Re: the weird characters surrounding the people involved in the case gets stranger when you consider the Bilal guy.

People on Reddit have dug deep into his past and there seems to be some kind of consensus that he must have been some kind of Criminal Informant and that was why the police may have tried to hide evidence that pertained to Bilal and steered the investigation away from him. Some accounts say Bilal was known as a dangerous figure and it may have been why Jay was willing to lie about everything (or participate), because he was scared of Bilal.

One of the things people point to as their support that Bilaal was a CI was he had been busted for SA multiple times, including with minors, and for some reason it does not show up on his record. Additionally, he had a bunch of different phone accounts, not typical in the late 90s, and they were all associated with a Government account. This is particularly odd because he was a Dental student at the time.

R192, what do you mean? Adnan has maintained his innocence throughout. When offered a plea deal as recent as a few years ago, where he could get out with time served if he would admit his guilt, he refused.

For some reason he would rather maintain innocence and serve a life sentence plus 30 years than have gotten out years ago.

Everybody can’t be a suspected informant now.

[quote]Did Adnan get into fights a lot? Was he violent with women? He didn’t just snap one day. Whoever it was most likely had a violent history.

Adnan did not have any record of violence prior to the murder. No one came forward to say that he was ever abusive or violent. It's also strange that he apparently has not ever exhibited violent behavior since that period, and has a completely clean record in prison.

As for the other two suspects, in the information that was released it stated that one of the suspects had tried to strangle someone after HMLs murder and that one of the suspects was in jail for sexual assault. It's unclear if these are tied to one person or one per suspect.

R195, the only two people that people suspect as informants are Jay and Bilal. There are things that support both may have been. You have to also consider how corrupt the BPD was and then it's not really a surprise that either or both of those people may have been.

Come on r193. This took 5 seconds. Less time than it took for you to type out somewhat misleading info.

Reddit: 19 - Bilal's minor - companion claims to have consented to this encounter, and since the age of consent is not clearly spelled out in Maryland law for situations where no sexual contact actually takes place, Bilal is not charged with anything.

R198 I stated that's the claim people use to point to it. I didn't say I believed it.

This is the other thing people point to re: Bilal. That he had some kind of connection with DEA.

None of these theories of alternative suspects comes close to explaining how Jay knew that Hae had been murdered by strangulation on the evening she went missing….and later led police to her car.

The suggestion that both Jen and Jay were lying at the instigation of the police is absolutely absurd, and I don’t know how anyone can believe such nonsense.

Yes, police can be corrupt and yes, I suspect they nudged Jay along a bit….but the wholesale invention of a narrative to fit up a teenager they knew nothing about at that stage? Utter bullshit. How did the police know that Adnan didn’t have a rock solid alibi? How did they know he wasn’t in a meeting with the school principal at the time, or at mosque in front of 50 clergy? They didn’t, but somehow or other they persuaded Jen and Jay (terrified into compliance because…why?) to lie. And in the years since neither of them have felt even the smallest inclination to tell the truth.

Nah. Absolute twaddle.

Jay murdered Hae, lied to Jen that it was Adnan who then told the police. The police believed Jay because the cell phone pings seemed to fit his story (although which one is not clear given that he had about 10 versions) and Adnan, as the ex had a potentially more believable motive than Jay. Simple as that.

[quote]The suggestion that both Jen and Jay were lying at the instigation of the police is absolutely absurd, and I don’t know how anyone can believe such nonsense.

Well, again, you have to take Jen's testimony with a grain of salt. No one knows exactly when Jay said that to Jen.

Two things re: Jen's testimony about that.

1) When she gave that testimony they asked her if it was the night of 1/13. She responds, "if you say it was the 13th, it was the 13th." She doesn't actually remember. She's going with whatever they tell her the date is.

2) Jen's testimony is that Jay told her all this information on the day of and that Jay told her Adnan showed her the body in the Best Buy parking lot.

The problem is Jay originally said he saw the body at his Grandmother's house, he later switches it to Best Buy, and then now says that never happened. He says he only said Best Buy because the police told him to say it.

How could Jay have told Jen he saw the body at Best Buy the night of the murder if the police didn't tell him to say that until months later?

Further, Jen has a history of crime tied to some of Jay's family members so you have to question how much she'd be willing to lie for him.

The thing that can't be explained is Jay supposedly gave details about the murder to two other people, the day of the murder. There doesn't seemingly seem to be a reason for those two other men to lie about it.

However, I don't think that immediately points to Adnan's guilt one way or another. I think what it definitely says is Jay was involved in it.

[quote]Yes, police can be corrupt and yes, I suspect they nudged Jay along a bit….but the wholesale invention of a narrative to fit up a teenager they knew nothing about at that stage?

I'd find it hard to believe too until you look at the history of the two Detectives involved in the case and how often they did just that. The fact that they had so many of their cases overturned for falsifying evidence and blackmailing witnesses to lie is amazing.

Again, the level of shady people involved in this sound like they came out of the ramblings of a mental patient.

[quote]Jay murdered Hae, lied to Jen that it was Adnan who then told the police. The police believed Jay because the cell phone pings seemed to fit his story (although which one is not clear given that he had about 10 versions) and Adnan, as the ex had a potentially more believable motive than Jay. Simple as that.

Well that's not exactly correct. The Police didn't believe Jay because the pings fit his story. Jay tailored his story to fit the pings. That's why his story changes numerous times.

R202, the scary part of the story is that it may not be an anomaly. There have been a lot of cases in which the police not only cooked evidence but prosecutors have fixed on false narratives they would not back down from even when there was irrefutable DNA evidence that someone was innocent.

Syed was represented by the U Baltimore Innocence Project. I really don't think that prosecutors, without pressure to do so, bring Brady violations to the attention of the appeals courts.

Brady violation means that the prosecutor had some exculpatory evidence that they didn't turn over (in discovery) to defense.

I think it was the active court case that flushed out the Brady material.

If Syed had not had post-conviction challenges, I think the prosecutor would have sat on this.

R201 Why do you have to take Jen’s testimony with a grain of salt? Who cares if she didn’t know the exact date? Most people wouldn’t under those circumstances - she knew it was the day Hae was reported missing, just didn’t know what the specific date was. They questioned her about six weeks later, remember.

You are also assuming that it was the police prepping Jay with “Best Buy” - there’s no evidence at all of that. How do you know that Jay didn’t tell Jen “Best Buy”, then tell the police “Grandma’s house”? Jay has been caught in lie after lie after lie, and yet we’re supposed to believe him when he says, “The police told me to say Best Buy”? Sure they did…or maybe this is yet another lie to explain why you were telling multiple different stories to multiple different people.

Jen has what “history of crime”? Is any of it as serious as accessory after the fact in a murder case? Perjury? She had a few dope convictions…big deal. Jay had one. These two had nothing to worry about on that score. And, by the way, she had a lawyer with her when she told them about Jay…the lawyer didn’t notice or suspect she was regurgitating a fake tale made up by the police?

Of course Jay was involved in it. He was the murderer. Why is it necessary to construct a conspiracy theory? That’s not usually how murders like tbis happen.

Jay has basically proven that he had direct involvement in Hae’s disappearance and death. There is not the slightest reason to suppose anyone else was - not the slightest. Not even the person he accused - Adnan. Jay is a barefaced liar and everyone knows it…but we’re magically supposed to accept as fact that all he did was help dispose of the body because that bit is the God’s honest truth?

R202 The police being shady with regards to other cases says nothing about this one, necessarily. Certainly it invites questions but it doesn’t actually answer any. Is every single person they ever investigated & charged in the course of their careers therefore innocent? Obviously not. So why is Jay?

R203 Right. And that’s why I believe the police nudged him along. I think they already believed him - that Adnan the ex, the person they’d had an anonymous call about, was Hae’s killer - and here they had Jay confirming it. He told just enough truth for them to have faith in him and the bits that didn’t fit…well, it was weeks ago and he was stoned, so want to think about that bit some more, Jay?

Confirmation bias, racism and a lying murderer got Adnan convicted.

[quote]holy shit the amount of creepy characters surrounding both Adnan and Hae is unbelievable.

[quote]the weird characters surrounding the people involved in the case gets stranger when you consider the Bilal guy.

I always thought there was a lot more to this story simply because there were so many shady people surrounding the case. I tend to distance myself from people who are shady or surround themselves with shady people. Inevitably something bad is going to happen, and I don't need that complication in my life.

People need to remember:

The police spoke to Jen before they spoke to either Jay or Adnan. They had the cell phone records, but no confirmatory pings yet.

Jen told them that Jay had admitted seeing Hae’s dead body & that she’d been strangled. She also said that she’d been with him while he disposed of his clothes and a shovel.

The police then took this to Jay who, after initial denials, admitted it and told them the same stuff he’d told Jen.

So….the theory must be that the police prepped Jen with a story to tell about Jay and Adnan before they’d even spoken to Jay, their confidential informant who would, fortuitously, be willing to perjure himself to fit up a teenager that they hadn’t even interviewed yet.

Or maybe Jay killed Hae, then lied and the police believed him. The least torturous explanation is usually correct.

When Jen was told about the murder IS important to the case because her knowing can help determine how much is true and when Jay knew what he knew, if one supposes he actually wasn't involved. I personally feel like he has to be involved.

And I take anything Jen says with a grain of salt because this is someone who, whichever the facts actually are, was perfectly fine with her best friend being involved in a murder and helping him to cover it up. She thought nothing of it and acted like it was a normal, everyday activity. Someone that willingly gets involved in a crime like that by helping cover it up... why should I not believe that person would also not lie to cover up for a friend if asked?

Has anyone read Jen's actual testimony? Reading what she actually said makes everything even more confusing. There's a link to someone talking about it that's an interesting read:

Yes, Jen spoke to police before Jay officially talked to police. We don't know if he spoke to them prior to, off the record.

I've also wondered if Jen was more involved than she said she was. She oddly said numerous times she hated HML without even knowing her.

It's interesting that the Prosecution is apparently not continuing to look at Jay but rather the two suspects who they say had motive, opportunity, and the ability to commit the murder. I thought for sure one of the suspects would have been Jay.

People have often questioned why Jay would help the police concoct a story about Adnan when making himself an accessory to murder would be worse than any drug charge. But who is to say that's what he was threatened with? It easily could have been, either you help us build a case against Adnan, or you're the one who must have done it.

At that point being an accessory to murder is better for him than to be charged as the murderer.

According to Dr. Grande's YT video, Jay was the one who directed police to Hae's body (or was it her car).

There was no physical evidence (DNA) that tied Syed to Hae's death, according to Dr. Grande's video.

But Dr. Grande points out, who had the motive except Syed. Possibly, Syed paid Jay to kill Hae?

Jay was given a no-jail deal to testify, so maybe he went just halfway towards the truth. If Jay had said: "Syed paid me to kill Hae," then Syed could've said: "Jay acted alone."

Jay directed them to where the car was parked.

Mr. S., who is more than likely one of the suspects who had motive, opportunity, and the ability, to kill the victim, is the one that found the body.

The "motive," that people allege Syed had, has always seemed really weak.

R212, a motive to kill isn’t necessarily something objectively logical. Besides, if the police never looked at other potential suspects, by definition they wouldn’t have developed evidence against anyone else. The conclusion that “no one else had a motive” could simply be based on poor police work.

The main witness against him was a liar with a violent temper but who was protected becausae he was a longtime police informant.

Jay is the only witness against Adnan.

Sorry r193. Looks like there is a legitimate government connection with the cell phones. But if he was working for DEA, why did they let that get out in court. You’d think they would have a cover for it.

R217, I don't know how much they even covered it in court. There's also apparently some weird thing about Bilal testifying for the Prosecution and then suddenly disappearing from the trial altogether.

Coupled with him possibly being the suspect noted in the file that they never investigated and then hid from the Defense... it does seem like there was some protection for him, whatever the reason.

People also point to how Serial and the HBO Documentary weirdly barely or do not mention him at all.

Even I remember thinking it was a cop out to drop him on at the very end like if this case was not already wtf that could have been a whole part two. Maybe they didn’t want to get sued.

Once again, r218, this time in English?

Everybody laughed at Sarah Koenig, but whose laughing now bitches?!

Did they laugh. R221? Serial made her world famous. And rightfully so.

R221, I don't know who is laughing but I know who is screeching like a banshee and poking needles in her SK doll. Rabia.

Rabia benefited plenty, a podcast, a NYT bestseller, a second book on the way, and producer credit for the HBO documentary.

R224 and rightfully so. She single-handedly spearheaded his ongoing defense with her advocacy and by reaching out to Sarah Koenig. Had she not stepped in, his case would be long forgotten and buried in the system, as would Adnan.

I've seen some (deserved) pushback on Serial for framing the story as a clickbait whodunnit, with way too much deference to law enforcement. Rabia's Undisclosed podcast did a much better job of breaking down the issues with the evidence as well as problematic conduct by the investigators.

[quote]I've seen some (deserved) pushback on Serial for framing the story as a clickbait whodunnit, with way too much deference to law enforcement.

That's where I'm at.

R224. It's not enough so she's taken to making gross comments on HMLs classmates posts about how she's not getting enough credit.

It's debatable how much the Serial podcast impacted the Prosecution requesting his sentence be overturned. The Podcast came out a decade ago. At the height of its popularity, requests for a second trial were repeatedly denied. This only came about because of the new law allowing minors who had served over 20 years to have their cases reviewed again.

The way Hae writes in her diary is very sweet, even sometimes apologising for not writing an entry in a while. There's a real innocence to her as the narrator. :(

On a lighter note, does anybody remember the hilarious Funny or Die video starring Michaela Watkins as Sarah Koenig? It's been removed from the internet now for some reason, but she really nailed the mannerisms and the moments of absurdity. Below is a screenshot.

R228 Link? I’m curious to see some of her comments.

R231, here's a link to one of her comments that people are talking about.

Good-looking, bigun'

Team Rabia! I love that she's kind of a diva, her makeup is always fab. She's carried this case on her back for many years and watched other people get rich off it. She's worked for more than two decades to get to this moment, so I can see why she feels somewhat entitled to it.

R234, Hi, Rabia!

Also, Rabia's made plenty of money off the whole thing.

Rabia is rabid though. Whatever good she's done for Adnan doesn't justify her doxxing people left and right.

That comment Rabia made was spiteful & unjustified. She misunderstood what someone said & ripped into them. When she was put straight she tried to justify herself (lamely) rather than just saying “Got the wrong end of the stick. Sorry”.

That’s not diva behaviour. That’s cunt behaviour.

R237, it's just Rabia's typical behavior. She acts like that towards anyone and everyone, including the people on her team.

Maybe Jen didn't like Hae because she knew Jay had a thing for Hae. Or maybe because Hae led him on a little or something and Jen didn't like it. I remember reading one of Hae's diary entries and thinking she came across as callous and manipulative.

How did HML's diary even become public? Does anyone know?

They read excerpts of it on the serial podcast

But how did they get their hands on it? I guess it must have been submitted as evidence.

Yes I believe it was submitted as evidence.... I get the sense that Baltimore is a tough place to survive in. These kids seemed very thuggish to me, including Hae.

This is from a Reddit thread. I wasn't aware of all the items found in HML's car:

Jay claims that he'd often go to Jenn's house to smoke. Well, he was calling Jenn's house up until 12:41pm on 1/13; that means he wasn't there at least until then. Jenn worked at Garland's Garden that day. Just noticed that Jay said he went to grab "gardening tools" from his house that day when Adnan inquired about shovels. Could he really have been referring to Garlands, in terms of what really happened on 1/13?

Why wasn't Mark Pusateri ever questioned? Jenn and Jay claim that the three of them were playing video games at her house.

Hae had flowers, flower food, and a UMBC undergrad admission card in her vehicle - all potentially things that would link Jenn to the car at some point (Jenn was a UMBC undergrad). Is it possible that Hae wanted to make a trip to Garland's before picking up her cousin? Could the "something came up" thing actually have been good news? Hae also had photos of flowers in her car. Garlands was just 10 minutes from Woodlawn HS.

Further suspicions around Jenn: Reacted with a "What do we do now" conversation with Jay at Champs Bar when Hae was being shown on TV . She also viewed Hae as being "Chinese or Korean or something" and "annoying" and "stuck up."

Also, Mr. S worked in concrete/landscaping. Could he tie into Garland's? Could he have been paid off at some point?

The one thing that always jumped out at me is that Jenn and Jay's stories were wildly different on most points...but they were both completely clear that they were together at the time Hae would have disappeared.

R245 No, they weren’t. Hae was due to pick up her cousin at 2.45, but never appeared so this is when she went missing. Jenn & Jay weren’t together until later that evening.

I'm re-watching the documentary now. The investigator comes across as incredibly stupid and smug. You hear him talk and instantly it makes sense that the case ended up becoming such a clusterfuck.

The family of Hae Min Lee will appeal a Baltimore judge’s decision to overturn Adnan Syed’s 22-year-old murder conviction in Lee’s death.

Attorney Steve Kelly, who represents the Lee family, told The Baltimore Sun on Wednesday night that earlier in the day he filed the notice to appeal.

Do they have standing to do that?

I know she was the victim, but they weren't the party prosecuting Adnan.

[quote]On a lighter note, does anybody remember the hilarious Funny or Die video starring Michaela Watkins as Sarah Koenig? It's been removed from the internet now for some reason, but she really nailed the mannerisms and the moments of absurdity. Below is a screenshot.

It's still up on youtube.

I also loved the SNL parody

Wow, R251. An SNL skit that's actually funny? That made me laugh out loud four times.

R249, Maryland has a victim’s rights statute that may allow them to do this.

R249 it's debatable on whether or not they have the right to do it. There is a victim's right statute that some argue allows them to be notified and speak... however, others argue that that statute does not apply when it is an issue dealing with someone's federal rights (the Brady violation) and not about the crime itself. It was not a pardon hearing.

Another argument is that they did allow the family notice and to be present, however the attorney for the family argues the brother was only notified 3 days before the hearing. This of course leads to a question of what is "sufficient" notice.

Sean deconstructs the case and the project to free Adnan.

Check out his Julius Jones deconstruct.

It saddens me that the Innocence Project, something I supported from its inception and for which some of my colleagues work/ed, has fallen prey to dishonesty and politics.

But here is another POV.

This case just gets stranger and stranger. Seriously, all of the people in this case are so sketchy and the more you dig, the more they're all involved with each other in some shape or form.

"Mr. S.," the man that found HML's body and is now also one of the presumed suspects mentioned in the Motion to Vacate, was initially thought to be just some random person involved in the case. Turns out, he has other ties to the case.

His employer was apparently the leader of Adnan's mosque. Additionally, his sister-in-law was a teacher at the High School the victim went to.

Looks like the prosecutor has dropped all charges. They were prepared to refill charges pending DNA results.

^refile.

That's the face of a man who knows he got away with murder.

This was a political decision rather than one based on evidence. Sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles. At least he served a lengthy prison sentence. I hope the family can take some comfort in that.

That’s a pile of horseshit r259.

Multimillion-dollar book deal incoming!

America's justice system is hilarious.

Not a decision "based on evidence" R259? The latest round of DNA testing actually [bold]excluded[/bold] Adnan. Sounds like the decision was based on evidence to me.

The person who got away with murder was the [italic]actual[/italic] murderer. Not Adnan.

People who say this was a "political stunt," are deranged.

Under the new law, which started this whole review of his file, they could have just let him go based on him having been a minor when arrested and having served over 20 years. There was no reason to vacate or drop the charges against them unless they actually had a strong reason to believe he didn't do it.

It's also funny to me that the same people who keep saying the prosecution, the SOA, and the judge all conspired to, for some unknown reason, to vacate the conviction scream that it was ridiculous that two Detectives, who have been caught lying, manipulating witnesses, and falsifying evidence (enough so that at least 4 other cases were overturned), could never have conspired to do that!

Listen to the Undisclosed episode Jay's Day. You can literally hear the detectives coach Jay through his story.

Also, and I know this will mark me as a terrible person, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for Hae's family right now. I mean, losing her the way they did was the worst thing they could have gone through, and I know this stirred up a lot, but I just can't with their attitude that seems to boil down to "Okay, the case may have been improperly prosecuted and the evidence against him is basically non-existent at this point, but he needs to stay in prison because otherwise it'll hurt our feelings."

What does this macramé beanie mean?

Good point, r265, if this happened in my family, I would be devastated and beyond angry that the killer wasn’t brought to justice because the cops pinned it on someone who didn’t do it.

We'll probably get another episode of Serial within a day or two. Koening was at the press conference and doing actual journalism.

Meanwhile, Rabia released an incredibly gracious statement thanking everyone who got them to this point, Koening included.

[quote]Good point, [R265], if this happened in my family, I would be devastated and beyond angry that the killer wasn’t brought to justice because the cops pinned it on someone who didn’t do it.

If they're going to get mad, it should be at the cops and prosecutors for cocking it up.

And I just can't with their attitude.

Without the Serial podcast, he'd still be in jail.

He owes it all to that journalist.

No, he owes it all to Rabia. If Serial hadn't happened, she'd have found another way to tell the story.

Mixed internal feelings about this, even if I know dropping the charges is the right decision at this point. It's called due process in the interest of justice.

[quote]No, he owes it all to Rabia. If Serial hadn't happened, she'd have found another way to tell the story.

No one would have cared what she had to say or what story she had to tell without Serial.

Serial hit at the right time in the lifecycle of podcasts (do you know anyone who still regularly listens anymore?). It was well-constructed and the story was told in an utterly compelling manner.

The only reason anyone cared what Rabia had to say afterwards was because people were hooked and there was a huge appetite for more to that story.

[quote]do you know anyone who still regularly listens anymore?

I do. Not so much true crime, but I have some media and pop cultural podcasts that I listen to weekly.

Serial has nothing to do with this. It came out almost a decade ago and in that time there was absolutely no movement on the case. Each time Adnan's team requested the case be revisited, they were denied. If Serial were going to have an impact, something would have changed in their favor years ago.

This only came out because of the new law allowing those convicted as minors to have their cases reviewed after 20 years. This would have happened for Adnan regardless of the Serial podcast.

[quote]Serial has nothing to do with this. It came out almost a decade ago and in that time there was absolutely no movement on the case. Each time Adnan's team requested the case be revisited, they were denied. If Serial were going to have an impact, something would have changed in their favor years ago.

No one would have known or cared one way or another about the random guy who was convicted of killing his former girlfriend.

The podcast raised the profile of the case significantly and put many more eyes on it. Also, do you really think that the "new law" was just randomly enacted without any social impetus? Momentum for such changes builds over time and takes time.

I'm not suggesting the podcast singlehandedly freed him. I am saying that without the podcast, I have significant doubts that anyone would have known or cared about the case one way or another.

R275, yes, they would have reviewed it regardless of it being such a well known case. The reason that law is in place now is because of the major issues in the judicial system in MD, particularly in MD. Further, 3 or 4 cases of one of the Detectives of Syed's case have previously been overturned (because of the Detective's corruption), all without the publicity that Adnan's case got.

*Particularly in Baltimore

[quote] Listen to the Undisclosed episode Jay's Day. You can literally hear the detectives coach Jay through his story.

Citing either the podcast or the defense team simply gets you an edited version and a biased narrative. These people are HIS team. They have done everything they could to cast suspicions on someone else. Deflection is an old defense trick. It's how you create reasonable doubt.

Maryland Courts are not some backwater judiciary. Maryland circuit and appellate courts have some of the best and most pro-defense judges in the country. The Maryland Courts of Criminal Appeals and its highest court, the Court of Appeals, have for half a century been two of the most progressive courts in the country. They have made groundbreaking rulings buttressing the rights of defendants. Ayed made several appeals and these courts rejected his appeals. Marilyn Moseby on the other hand worked for an insurance company for a few years processing claims and was totally unqualified for her job. This is just another example of that incompetence.

Flashing DNA that settles nothing in this case has become another sleight of hand. Samples that might have been more useful for DNA testing were insufficiently collected by today's standards. None of the new DNA results have been subjected to cross examination or properly argued in the context of the facts and circumstances of the case. The DNA does not "prove" or "confirm" Syed's innocence. Anyone who thinks that does not understand DNA forensics or law.

Suggesting that Marilyn Moseby, the Baltimore State's Attorney, did this for honest or honorable reasons is laughable. I will bet anything she will end up employed by those involved with Syed's case.

Yes, Marilyn Mosby, as well as the Judge.. as well as everyone else who worked on it.. did it as a big conspiracy.

He had means, motive and opportunity.

Plus being brought up in that creepy Muslim way where a woman gets to be killed if she dishonors the males in any way.

The others had the opportunity to do it, but no reason. Plus Adnan said he was going to kill her.

According to the briefing at least one other suspect had Means, Motive, and Opportunity.

And one of them actually said he was going to kill her, Adnan did not.

Ha ha you insufferable(but probably correct) pricks who insisted he JUST he innocent and refused to play along and believe with the rest of us, woke guess what dummies he's free now!!! We were right you were wrong as usual. Too bad sad!!

Um Adnan DID say he was going to kill her. In fact, he stupidly wrote it down.

There is no one else who had that kind of motivation to kill her. He had been harassing her to get back. That is exactly who would kill her.

Damn I worry for some of you. Be careful with your choice in lovers.

No, he didn't R283. He wrote, "I'm going to kill..."

It didn't say he was going to kill her. He could have been saying he was going to kill Aisha, who he was sending the note back and forth to, he could have said he was going to kill himself. he could have said he was going to kill the teacher of the class he was in... he could have said he was going to kill HML. We'll never know because the sentence wasn't finished.

Damn, I worry for some of you who can't get the facts straight and instead create their own.

You only think he's the only person who had that kind of motivation, because he's the only person the Detectives bothered to investigate.

[quote]Here's just one comment. I find it well reasoned

I couldn't even get through two lines of that. It was so poorly written it was difficult to understand.

I've been browsing around Reddit and I can't find anything that gives a decent summary of the situation. Everything is "you stupid people missed this important fact!" and then no important fact is forthcoming, lots of in-fighting, lots of political trolling. It's mostly just comments like the one quoted here, which people inexplicably believe are "well reasoned."

[quote]Ha ha you insufferable(but probably correct) pricks who insisted he JUST he innocent and refused to play along and believe with the rest of us, woke guess what dummies he's free now!!! We were right you were wrong as usual. Too bad sad!!

If this is an example of the level of coherence in most of the arguments on his guilt or innocence, no wonder the case is a mess.

R282, speak more slowly and softly this time… no one understands your post.

R284, that is still strong evidence. That it's on the back of her letter/note doesn't help your argument. You're stretching.

Especially since, oh I don't know . . . she ended up DEAD. Neither the teacher nor anyone else you suggest may have been the intended target of the "I am going to kill" ended up dead. And Syed never committed or attempted to commit suicide.

Why are people twisting themselves into pretzels to try to prove this guy didn't kill the woman who ended their relationship, was already seeing another guy and who Seyed was still trying to get back together despite her being adamantly against it. That Going To Kill letter seemed pretty devastating to me. Sometimes it really is the most obvious suspect - especially in a very personal killing.

No, it isn't actual strong evidence. If you consider THAT actual, strong, evidence.. then you have to consider the two reports from two other people that a different suspect publicly stated they would kill HML and make her disappear.

And also, once again, the statement was incorrect, Adnan never wrote he was going to kill her. He said he was going to kill...

You can assume that's what he meant, but it's not fact.

Facts matter.

R289, you consider both the latter and the former. But to suggest that the former is not strong evidence is disingenuous or perhaps a misunderstanding of evidence.

Actually, the former is direct evidence of intent, and the latter is hearsay. The former is stronger evidence.

The fact remains that on the back of a note from the victim to Syed telling him in no uncertain terms that she would not bow to his pressure to get back with him, Syed wrote "I will kill". That is considered direct evidence of Syed's thought process and strong circumstantial evidence that he killed her. That cannot be ignored or brushed away.

I agree facts matter but you seem to want to relabel facts as non-facts. Most cases are built on circumstantial evidence that arises out of facts.

It's not stronger evidence than someone else verbally stating, in front of others, that they would kill HML and make her disappear. To say that him writing that note, must mean HE did it, and dismiss another suspect who verbally said it, does not wash.

The back of the note also had notes between Adnan and a classmate joking and making fun of the victim. The classmate was probably in on it too!

The note is just a small piece of evidence. It’s not enough for a conviction because, as others pointed out, another person also said it. There has to be way more evidence, which the prosecutor doesn’t have.

[quote] It's not stronger evidence than someone else verbally stating, in front of others, that they would kill HML and make her disappear.

That all depends on how strong the witnesses are. How impeachable they are. When the statements were given, if there were motivations to fabricate, if prior statements contradict the statement or the circumstances of the statement, and under what circumstances and to whom the statements were given. Were the initial statements recorded? So while you may think that these witnesses make for stronger evidence. that is not a given.

Believe what you want. But when you look at a case with a bias or with an agenda, that lack of objectivity can often get in the way of reality. Not saying that can't happen to both sides in a case, just that a bias can cloud every piece of evidence either by ignoring it or boosting it.

R294, not only that, but a written note of "I want to kill . . ." isn't very convincing evidence of an actual intent to kill. If you genuinely are developing a plan to murder someone, why would you memorialize that in a handwritten note?

What it comes down to for me is not necessarily whether he's innocent or guilty, per se.

The issue is whether he got fair trial, whether the evidence against him supported a verdict of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt (not without doubt, merely a reasonable doubt), whether the police and investigators were thorough and followed all leads and obtained evidence legally, and whether prosecutors and defense attorneys operated in good faith with best efforts and in an ethical manner.

What is clear from all the information revealed is not that Syed is or isn't guilty or that new evidence exonerates him, but that the majority of the preceding issues around a fair trial were not followed. Now, 20 years later, whether he's guilty or not, there is no way that he could be tried fairly and be convicted a second time due to the quality of the original evidence and testimony, the subsequent deaths of witnesses, and a myriad of procedural problems with a second trial.

The shame is no one is likely ever going to be punished for her death because of these original errors. Had there not been such a rush to convict him, the police and prosecutors could have actually built a better case and tried him fairly or the real culprit could have been apprehended. Now, after so much time has passed, none of that is likely.

If you want to talk about strong evidence:

The latest DNA tests for "touch" DNA on Hae's skirt, pantyhose, shoes and jacket -- items that had not been tested before -- found [bold]absolutely no DNA from Adnan[/bold]. That is strong evidence that he didn't do it. Unless you think that somehow he was able to physically strangle Hae, then transport and bury her body without getting a speck of his DNA on her clothes.

The DNA test [italic]did[/italic] turn up DNA from multiple people, but Adnan was not one of them. It would be interesting to know whether Jay Wilds' DNA was. (So far, the prosecutor has not said whose DNA was found. I think it might indicate another suspect or two.)

The prosecutors didn't say they were dropping the charges because they didn't have enough evidence for another conviction. They said they were dropping the charges because the DNA evidence actually [italic]excluded Adnan from the case[/italic].

If the [bold]total absence of Adnan's DNA on Hae's clothing[/bold] doesn't constitute" reasonable doubt", then I don't know what does.

[quote]If the total absence of Adnan's DNA on Hae's clothing doesn't constitute" reasonable doubt", then I don't know what does.

The absence of evidence is proof.

That's like saying the lack of proof that no aliens exist is proof that aliens built the pyramids.

R298, did they test all those items? From what I understood, the touch DNA was only from the shoes, which they are uncertain as to whether or not the victim was actually wearing at the time of her death.

And I believe they have said, at least according to Rabia, that the DNA did not match either Adnan or Jay.

[quote]Believe what you want. But when you look at a case with a bias or with an agenda, that lack of objectivity can often get in the way of reality. Not saying that can't happen to both sides in a case, just that a bias can cloud every piece of evidence either by ignoring it or boosting it.

And a lot of people's belief that Adnan is absolutely guilty is based on "overwhelming evidence," from Detectives who did not bother to investigate other known suspects. Had those suspects been investigated properly, people's certainty in Adnan's guilt might be a little different.

As it stands, when people say, "all evidence points to Adnan," that's only because the only evidence Detectives looked for was to support that it was Adnan.

R299, r298’s post made sense to me. But yours…doesn’t.

I think Adnan *may* be guilty. But I also think that letting him out was the right move. His trial was fatally flawed.

[quote][R299], [R298]’s post made sense to me. But yours…doesn’t.

I'm not all that suprised if r298's post makes sense to you.

Watching the HBO doc- Syed lies a lot. Lied to his parents about Hae, about his friendship with Jay ("oh we weren't close" "but I loaned him my car and phone"), and the possessive and volatile relationship with Hae...

And it's very biased in his favor. Who is Rabia to Syed?

He didn't really lie any more than any normal teenage kid.

The relationship with HML isn't even really that possessive or volatile. What was possessive and volatile was her previous relationship. In her diary she refers to her ex-boyfriend as being a violent monster. She barely says anything negative or remotely accusatory about Adnan.

She wrote about their breakup (one of several) being hostile and cold, and feeling that Syed controlled her the way her mother and uncle did.

Is there a specific passage where she wrote that he controlled her like her mother? I don't recall that.

Episode 1, they play excerpts from her diary re:their relationship and breakup. Her life revolves around him, the secrecy of the relationship, etc. She unfavorably compares him and how he wants her to be available to him, but secret, etc, to the control her family exerts on her.

I am coming to this totally fresh after reading most of this thread, no podcasts or news articles (I don't know why I missed it) and usually DL has a pretty clear consensus that makes things clear.

And this documentary is hilariously biased- which I don't like in a documentary (see the awesome History of the Eagles, by the Eagles). But it's more damning in some ways because Adnan comes off as overconfident in his innocence - because it's supposed to be a supplement, not a starting point and he seems... dispassionately careless.

R309 you will not get a consensus regarding this case. The majority of people who follow it are very, very confident about his guilt, or confident he didn't do it. Very few people are in the middle.

And the documentary isn't really the best source to get info. The cartoons alone creeped me out. But it was produced by Rabia, so that should tell you why it is the way it is.

Re: Hae's diary.. the early entries, I think you have to take with a grain of salt. She changes her tone about him throughout, but it's mostly that he's the sweetest, kindest, boyfriend ever. The negative remarks also don't really seem to make a whole lot of sense when you read the entries just weeks before her death where she calls Adnan for car help, in addition to calling her new boyfriend. If she really felt Adman was so awful and controlling, one would find it hard to believe she'd call him.

Is Rabia family to Syed? Make no mistake, I'm impressed by her passion, but her initial explanation that her divorce was her impetus for involvement rubs me the wrong way (I know many crazy people who get involved in the law to "prove" something about their own legal issues) and this documentary is fucking crazy, and so many people use these things as launchpads for themselves.

R313 I thought she was involved in this prior to her divorce.

Her family is very close to Adnan's. Her brother was also very good friends with Adnan and they all attended the same mosque.

Rabia has always come across to others as being infatuated with Adnan. Some have joked she worked tirelessly on this in hopes of being his next girlfriend/wife. She's always come across as unhinged, especially if you look at her history of attacking other people.

Interestingly enough, her brother, the one that was best friends with Adnan, no longer speaks to Rabia and has publicly gone against a lot of the things she's done/said.

[quote]did they test all those items?

Per the attached article from WBAL-TV in Baltimore:

"Mosby said her office on Friday received the results of touch DNA testing on items that were not tested before that included a skirt, pantyhose, shoes and a jacket belonging to Lee. Mosby said there was a DNA mixture of multiple contributors on both shoes and that Adnan Syed's DNA was excluded."

"Mosby said that because of advances in DNA testing from when the case was initially tried, they were able to exclude Syed from the case, saying, 'The case is over.' "

The whole article is worth reading.

Goddamnit, so even the story BEHIND this story is good too! Jesus. There are all these WOMEN, these kind of smart, mousy women - Rabia, the Simpson lawyer, Sarah Koenig- fighting Adnan's fight, and they all seem to kind of care way too much for some unspoken reason. ;)

I refuse to go on Reddit. I'm already so overwhelmed with information. And it's overturned, so it doesn't matter.

I think about Chandra Levy, and how fucked up that whole situation was- you never know...

Yeah it's interesting that Adnan and Jay's DNA were not present. HML's DNA also were not present on those shoes. If those are in fact the shoes she was wearing when killed, it would be really interesting if Bilal or Mr. S's DNA were found.

Recall that "touch DNA" is what exonerated Casey Anthony and the Ramsays...

R316, that's what makes this case so compelling. There are so many shady people involved and the more you dive into it, the more you uncover. Reddit is a good source for a lot of information because the people on there have sifted through every piece of information imaginable... but that's because most of them are obsessed loons. They break into groups called, "Guilters," and "Innocenters," and can be more obnoxious than the trolls on DL. The ones identified as "guilters," are particularly nasty and often get caught pretending that they are attorneys, communications experts, judges, etc., in an effort to make their assessment of the murder seem more believable. Apparently one prolific user was caught pretending to be an Attorney, a Cell Phone Tower expert, as well as a classmate.

BEARKING:

"Plus being brought up in that creepy Muslim way where a woman gets to be killed if she dishonors the males in any way."

And yet 99% of men who kill women in America aren't Muslims. Imagine that.

Not sure that I agree with the decision. As the vacating of his sentence had to do with due process, that should have nothing to do with the victim's family being able to be present, in person.

This is utter bullshit.

He did that shit

This was such a technicality that had nothing to do with the evidence. How is it legal to reverse a conviction-vacating decision (based on evidence review) based on then ruling that the victim’s family didnt get “enough” notice of it????

The only mystery about this case is that Koenig took an open and shut DV murder case and was able to draw it out for ratings. It's so obvious he did it. Every week I was waiting for the evidence it wasn't him. But it was. And Rabia probably thought she'd get a piece of that when he got out, but alas, he's not into fat chicks. Sorry.