Older gays: anything about gay culture you miss from when you were younger?

We didn't have to cater to straight wymyn expections of how we should conduct our lives. Cruising the docks could mean a lucky strike or a gruesome death. Thoses were the days.

I miss renting porn from the back room of a video store you had to drive 30 minutes to get to, and finding out when you got home if you made a good choice. And buying dirty magazines from musty used book stores.

Big dark hairy bush.

I miss feeling like being openly gay was a subversive act and a big fuck you to the dominant culture and that you made a decision to live against the mainstream workday life others were blindly in chains to. When just having sex with another man was a transgressive behavior, something about it was dangerous and illicit and you were committing a crime and it made it so much more thrilling. There was an adrenaline rush knowing that so many groups and institutions believed that the simple act of fucking between men somehow drove them to distraction in need of laws, scripture and prayer because they were so terrified of the idea.

So basically, when being Gay meant you were a sexual outlaw and outsider, and that was just fine and the way you wanted it to be.

R3 do you think gays do a lot more manscaping now?

I miss people not getting offended over every stupid little thing. Can you imagine how these pissant millennials and zoomers would react if there were a show today with a character like Al Bundy making fun of fat women? They’d have a meltdown.

Another vote for bush

[quote]We didn't have to cater to straight wymyn expections of how we should conduct our lives.

Or the expections of gay men who wish to model their lives on those of heterosexuals.

Also miss: lunches (visible crutch bulges and pants cut to accentuate them); long hair; the predominance of street cruising; the easy-going attitude to every aspect of life including street sexuality; and not least, gay advocacy that was about personal LIBERATION and freedom – not jamming people into ever-more tightly defined boxes, and insisting gay men kow tow to every latest 'ism'.

R4 Ive always thought that a lot of gay men liked being gay for the taboo aspect as well

Men with beautiful bodies not covered with tattoos.

Masculinity and the celebration of it.

Glad to see the back of: tan lines, stretch and stone-wash jeans, amyl, tie die, polo and flannel shirts, white belts, rainbow necklaces and bracelets, puka shells, The Front Runner, and Tales Of The City. Hoping to see the back of: tattoos, meth, Timothée.

White Belt Man?

When drag was niche, rather than the be-all and end-all of gay culture.

Will be hugely glad to see the back of Drag Race and Ru Paul.

variety bars,,,,all are mostly gone from my city, except for the Drag queen place for str8 people

Yes, drag is so tired and over, but it’s everywhere. It’s like the world up and moved to Branson.

The non-stop public cruising of which the straight world was nearly totally oblivious.

R9 Yes, thank you, that’s a more succinct way of putting it. Being openly gay was making a decision to go against society and you had to be very brave to do it and we celebrated that fact. While I think a big part of that came from the gay community, I was also very involved in the arts and with artist and there was a similar “calling” in that, choosing something others would/couldn’t understand, knowing you couldn’t go back, that you were making a sacrifice for living that way and being passionate and brave about it was important. I liked the “fuck you, what about” attitude that newly out people gain and it empowers them because of it.

[quote] Cruising the docks could mean a lucky strike or a gruesome death. Thoses were the days.

Jesus fucking Christ, this is why gay men are so profoundly broken.

Drag also used to be clever and fun. Today’s nonstop “See that you do” vibes are try-hard, and thus, cringe.

When I first came out being Gay felt like you were part of a private, exclusive club. We had our own code words (friend of Dorothy), our own secret symbols (red hanky left pocket) and we even had secret clubhouses (Gay bars hidden down some dark alley). Now that we're so mainstream the only thing we still have is blanket discrimination

I kind of miss all that ☹️

Hairy everything. make-up free faces. natural B.O. gang showers at the gym (female free locker/shower rooms)

I miss “gay ghettos”, being able to party all weekend without consequence, and being able to sit down with a bunch of older, jaded queens and the art of a good read. Smartphones totally killed any interest in that.

I lived in Boston’s South End in the early 90’s and one of our favorite things to do was go and make last call at the Eagle and my roommates would inevitably pick someone up- I was the picky one and usually went home alone. I remember with three roommates on Sunday mornings, there’d be three other guys too draped around the living room drinking coffee and regaling about the night before, OR we’d go out to Tremont Ice Cream and see who else notable had hooked up.

I miss sitting on that stoop on Shawmut Ave. and watching all the hot guys going to Mike’s Gym after work, sigh. And To Go Bakery, they had the BEST coffee, you could drink a lot of it and it was bright and full bodied and not at all smoky or too sharp.

"And the colored girls go

"Doo do doo do doo do do doo..."

[quote] Jesus fucking Christ, this is why gay men are so profoundly broken.

Missing times when fish would stay away from gay men spaces

^ Yes

[quote] The non-stop public cruising of which the straight FEMALE world was nearly totally oblivious

Corrected that for you, "straight" men always knew where to find us.

Talk about "profoundly broken", unfuckable Fraus who butt their way onto a Gay site because no one else will give them the time of day 🙄

The Big Cup!

when the kink scene wasn't filled with lunatics and chem whores. . . or really any of the subcult scenes... cokeheads were annoying but nothing like when meth addicts started popping up in the scene.

the intelligentsia, okay, pseudo-intelligentsia... part arts, part academics, and just a mix of people... all walks of life, politics, scenes, old, young, black, white, whatever.. that you could just chill and be lowercase gay than 50 shades of G-A-Y. and needing to tattoo your arse with all your politics just to be left in peace... When faghags were more sincere. . .

underground parties, raves... which could be more of a general thing but many of those I went to were more anti-scene gay nerds and arts misfits. A few sex parties in the same vein, too.

the early gay "online" world... at one point, it was said that gays and lesbians owned the online sphere... that we all gravitated to it like underground dens. . . there were so many subcultures that spawned just from that. Also a lot of snail mail video exchanges.

When it was just gays, and I'm including lesbians in the word "gay."

Then the straight women came. Then the trannies. Now the "queers."

It was hotter when the fraus and their ball-shriveling shrieks stayed away.

R27, hit a nerve eh? You sound bitter and jealous

Fraus are always snitchin on theyselves!

When pups were just a type of sub... and not a fucking furry/otherkin/therian

[quote]I miss “gay ghettos”

100,000%!! When just stepping out the door became a sexual adventure if you wanted it, and every street corner offered new possibilities. And bumping into friends was a constant. And everything you could possibly want was all within a short walk. A happy world within the world. And then it all ended, and everything was scattered. Jews got the Holocaust. We got the Plague. However, rising real estate values, and the push for homosexuality to be mainstreamed into Society would have ended them eventually anyway.

No he doesn't R32. You're so out of line. Get the fuck outta here

^ Thank you

No, Frau useless r32, I'm not bitter or angry, just annoyed *sigh*

Did someone get told?

@r32, Oh, and jealous? 😂

@r38, Yeah, just some Frau, but they never listen anyway 🙄

The days before apps and even the internet, though the latter never felt like it ruined hooking up in bars/on the scene/out and about to the extent that phones/apps has.

Nostalgia. I miss revival houses, vintage clothing, rediscovering Mapp and Lucia, revivals of 1920s musicals, Tiffany lamps, etc.

Mapp and Lucia - great read. The 1985 series is on Brit Box.

When you’d have an erection that lasted for hours, you’d either find someone (or several someones) to fuck or you’d wear a jockstrap, not go to the Emergency Room.

What could they do for you in an ER back then?

Craigslist personals.

I miss the (relative) [italic[lack[/italic] of the impossible high standards we have now regarding gay men's looks and bodies.

It was so much easier to meet regular guys and get laid.

And, because it was and is my type, I miss the "clone" look of the 70s and 80s. Think Al Parker.

The guy at R46 looks like Jesus.

Yeah

When liking traditional gay things (classic movies, female singers, disco, opera, theatre) wasn’t considered a stigma and a stereotype that needed to be mocked.

Sorry for the screw-up in R46; I meant to emphasize "lack."

[quote]The guy at [R46] looks like Jesus.

Bless. He WAS Jesus, darling. He just had a shitload more than one second coming.

Here's Al (or Drew as he was in real life) at the 1.44 mark in a story about foreskin restoration.

Sexy men with nice bodies that weren’t massive or heavily tattooed.

that it existed? Back then gay culture existed. Obviously the trans and queers made it their mission to annihilate it.

The ease with which I could fuck morning, noon, and night.

There were so many bottoms out there. And they were so accessible.

Q: When is a vote for Bush not a vote for Bush?

A: When it's a vote for bush.

R55 and there aren't many bottoms now?

Not having to deal with this kind of victimhood patheticness. Every one has to have a sob story now or "Me Too" moment. I wasn't around then, but it seems like gay men had an easier time getting together with other guys without making a song and dance out of it.

The internet really did ruin every aspect of gay life. Knowing EVERYTHING about a possible prospect, with photos from every angle, has ruined the thrill of the hunt. The thrill of relationships. It's all cut and dried now. Everyone staring at their fucking phones looking at postage stamp sized pics that mostly aren't authentic anyway. Nervously stealing a glimpse of a hot stud at the gym. Now there are shocking nudes on your phone a moment away. Going to the mall on a Saturday afternoon and checking out all the hot guys casually clothes shopping. The Men's department was a parade of sexy local guys. Going to the gay ghetto (OUR part of town) and being in the bars, businesses, clubs and restaurants that had flavor. It's all condos now. Drag was an unusual lark. Now it's daytime TV. Going to small art house theaters to see the new, often foreign, gay art films, always curious to see who might be in the audience. Now there are whole channels of them on 24/7. Assimilation into straight society has taken away our identity. Every gay man I know has a sense of loss. The young gay men today all have body dysmorphia and are locked in their own obnoxiously labeled boxes. Freedom and purpose have, strangely, evaporated.

When drag queens used to be resilient and tough, now it's just people with a dozen insecurities and mental problems.

The worst is all the half drag you see in public. Gay men used to be hot. Now the gender blender has desexualized so many. If I wanted overt, in your face femininity in my partner I'd be straight.

Things I don't miss but certainly enjoyed at the time:

The excitement of walking into a gay bar for the first time never really faded until gay bars faded. There was the chance that in another city on another continent you would run into someone you knew, and even in a bar where you had been many times there was always a strong possibility of surprise or delight. Bartenders knew everything and spotted a new face in an instant; how they reacted to you was often s very good indicator of the night ahead. You could go early, meet new friends, fuck them in shifts, and return and repeat as many times as the hour and your stamina allowed.

I always favored what were classed as leather/denim/"Western" bars where men stuck to a casual theme with a good handful of leather harnesses or vests or caps, nothing disco, nothing Versace, nothing glittery and shiny, no cologne, no hours of preening and systems involving 4 different moisturizers. The clothes went on easily and came off easily.

You met all sorts. You might go home with a bricklayer and fuck all night and then his younger gay brother arrives from some late shift and you fuck with him too. Or you might meet the owner of a famous advertising agency. Or go to a party with people you had fucked more than once before, out to someone's father's country house with fancy sorts and blue collar sorts mixing well because it was about meeting someone you liked, having a nice conversation (maybe), and fucking. There were not bitchy cliques who dressed alike, and judged alike taking up valuable space. You would meet improbable men, and make lasting acquaintances with people with whom you never fucked, some of them became friends. You might go to a bar as a snowstorm started and return home three days later after being the sex toy of your new favorite bartender and his roommates. You might fuck someone one week and then find yourself far away in another city at their house two weeks later. Possibilities were palpable.

A lot of these comments are obviously from urban gays. I'm wondering if those in the countryside have noticed any changes or things they miss.

I miss Bessie, my sex goat.

LOL R64

@r64, Bessie was a whore

But she was MY whore.

Bessie was a therapy support animal and had the vest and papers to back it up. She was doing the Lord’s work!

For you only R46

R69

Thanks!

In the ‘50s, sex from men in black socks. From the ‘60s onward, sex from men with filthy soles of their feet.

Dancing. I never would have guessed gays would stop dancing. Yes, you can find it - but it’s more unlikely than likely even in gay bars.

Gay bookstores. A Different Light in Chelsea. Going there and then to the Big Cup. Daytime gay stuff.

The music is all terrible house music now. It all blends together, there's no artists that stand out. There used to be a wave of excitement when the new Janet, or Madonna suddenly queued up. And no one wants to dance anymore. Everyone has to look "cool" and are afraid to shatter their painfully constructed, walled off "identities".

Phone mailbox personals

With you R3...Long hair, bush, and hairy chests need a comeback.

[quote]Phone mailbox personals

I recall one magazine that used to reproduce the actual submitted coupons for the Personals classified ads. You could immediately determine by the handwriting who were the psychopaths without even reference to a photo!

we didn't have to worry about millenials "boundaries" about what is appropriate behavior among men.

we came of age when the boundaries (legal, religious, societal) forbade us from admiring, desiring and touching men and showing affection was verboten.

fortunately in the '70s we said fuck that and started displaying our admiration for male bodies and expressing the pleasure we got from touching them.

If a guy in a bar patted your butt, we didn't melt down. we took it a compliment and if not interested a simple shake of the head was enough

can't abide the current hysteria re. "violations"

[quote] appropriate behavior among men.

giggle. What is that shit ? with you R78. I loved to be grabbed and gropped

Cops raiding bars and bathhouses and publishing the names of patrons in the local newspapers. Groups of (supposedly all straight) men who would bash gays for sport, meanwhile police looked the other way or took satisfaction in it. Life was never boring and it was all quite a rush. And then when the "gay disease" (which wasn't confined to gays) arrived and your friends started dying faster than you could count and society in general wanted even less to do with us than ever before, well, the good times just never stopped.

Thank you, Ghost of Ronald Reagan.

Can one see Al Parker at Woodstock anywhere ? he's supposed to figure in the movie, but there are no pics around

Bandana code

Meeting someone at a crowded gay bar. It was fun to “size” up the crowd and flirt. You never knew who you would meet on a rando Saturday night.

I miss going into the bushes at the local park and seeing men having sex, then actually participating. I was 15 when I first blew a guy in the bushes and got fucked a few weeks later. Good times.

R85 The Parks in London were busier at night than Oxford circus at rush hour. Russell sq...good memories

This will probably sound a little fucked up, but bear with me. In a way, I miss the gay community being marginalized and mistreated by society at large. Now, to clarify, I am not advocating being mean to people or mistreating people. However, I really do believe that constantly having to deal with judgment from society forced me to be a much stronger and more resilient person. I never would’ve been this emotionally strong if I had been a straight guy with a wife and kids.

Compare that to the young gays today. While I am thankful for the fact that they won’t have to deal with what we had to deal with (hopefully), it is quite clear that they are not even close to being able to handle what we had to put up with. Someone tells them one little bad thing and they fall to pieces.

^ That which does not kill us makes us stronger... Except sometimes it kills us and that sucks ☹️

The internet has killed gay bars in small-medium sized cities, and with that loss, a place where younger gay men could find community. It's sad that locating gay community in bars had to be associated with negative things too, like drinking culture, and drugs in the bathrooms. But it's also where you found out about upcoming events, parades, parties - bulletin boards for roommates, etc. But there's been nothing to substitute for it. I suppose "entrepreneurial" young gays can google to find special groups (walking groups, sports groups, reading groups) of like-minded gays, but I think for the average young gay person coming out now, it must feel very "drifty". I don't do social media, so perhaps there are facebook and instagram groups just for gay men located in a particular city? Other than that there are just gay hook up sites.

Double anal, fisting, piss drinking, sucking guys feet. Pre-pandemic.

r89 the various "meet up" type sites often advertise a variety of casual gay groups.. and there are various local directories of non-scene social clubs and get togethers. Overall, they tend to be organized and geared towards the 30-50 crowd. . . hiking, cycling, running and film clubs tend to be the most popular.

What r4 said, but for me, specifically the act of kissing, cuddling, and playing with another guy felt naughty, secretive, and subversive in that at the age of 18 in my freshman dorm in college in 1979, my secret partner and I felt that as males, we were no longer being competitive or adversarial -- we were beating the system. We had discovered the joy of male intimacy and thought that everyone else was a fool. Part of it was just being sexual for the first time and exploring each others' bodies.

Some of my college classmates were people with whom I'd grown up since pre-school. Some were baffled and/or jealous by my impossibly close new friendship. They were clueless. Some of that magic wore off after I came out of the closet the following year.

The knowledge and the language of cruising, rather than relying on hookup apps.

Dance bars with fun New Wave rather than house music.

This is very niche, but Wednesday night "Dynasty" parties either at someone's house or at a video bar.

Gay local newspapers, as well as alt-weeklies that had a lot of gay content and events that mainstream papers wouldn't publish.

[quote]You never knew who you would meet on a rando Saturday night.

Right. As if "rando" had even become a word yet.

Clubs pre-cellphones. When people actual looked at each other, cruised, talked, laughed, mingled, took in the atmosphere and scenery. Dare I also add, as much as I hated it, there was the weird sensory recollection of being surrounded by people smoking and coming home realizing your jacket, clothes and hair were full of all that. Good for you, No; a wistful remembrance of a youthful era past, Yes. :)

Walking into a bar and having a chance meeting with a kid you used to play Dodgeball in the street with, then fucking each other silly after leaving the bar and taking him home.

Gotta light?

The LOOK

I loved the skin-tight jeans guys used to wear.

I miss the true community we had. We had whole areas of cities that were pretty much all gay. We took downtrodden areas and turned them into showplaces. That is rapidly disappearing everywhere. The gays have gone mainstream and have moved out to the suburbs, live in ranch houses, and are raising babies. In my day raising a baby was the last thing most any gay man would have wanted to do. We had no interest in being anything like straights.

I miss all the unbridled sex in all sorts of exotic & secretive places, when we didn't have to worry about some disease sending us to our graves. The worst thing we had to worry about was a case of the clap, and that just required a puncture at the clap clinic.

Hooking up with people you actually met in person whether it was at the beach, a club, restaurant, bar on the street.

I miss leaving the baths or finishing filming a porno at 5am, hitting Pam Pam’s for breakfast at dawn seeing all the straight worker bees arriving to their boring jobs via Muni while the homos are freshly fucked.

Coming down from MDMA and reveling in all the cock we just had, being totally outlaw and naughty and meeting up together as the sun comes up.

I too miss the bars and the flirting. When you had to really have a conversation (even one with innuendo) to get laid.

First it was a/s/l. Now there is no more artistry to flirting. Just typing "pics" or "hung" destroys the thrill of the hunt

I miss sex in public parks. It has all but disappeared where I live.

I miss the feeling we all had that we were part of a special club. Running across fellow gays in public and getting that look and nod ,then finding an extra dessert on your plate or your application being pushed to the top of the pile. We took care of each other,and automatically assumed we were friends (until we got to know each other,then werent!) and acted accordingly. We went out of our ways to help each other ,to support each other,to care about each other. I remember so clearly walking into my 1st gay bar in 1974 at 14 and feeling like I had found a home. So many freaks just like me . I miss neighborhoods full of gay men. I miss gay yellow pages and gay book stores and gay weekly papers . I miss looking at straight people trapped in loveless marriages and raising kids they hated and thinking "I never have to be like them" . I miss bars full of old queens and young queens and drag queens and people of all shapes,sizes and colors and just loving them all. Im glad my ass is closer to death than birth now. I would hate to be gay in this world now. I guess I still am but Im just an old, fat,asexual eunuch now to most everyone, gay or straight. Thats okay,Im at peace with it but I sure would love a nice piano bar with a bunch of old fat queens like me to catch a lunch buzz with and reminisce about the "good old days".

I miss the dance clubs - particularly the after-hours "you have to be in the know" type of places.

The gay world really was an underground culture and you had to learn a lot of things. There was no internet.

Now the straight world has borrowed or copied everything and the straights feel like they should be in our bars as 'allies' without knowing their place.

There has to be a middle-ground.

[quote]I sure would love a nice piano bar with a bunch of old fat queens like me to catch a lunch buzz with and reminisce about the "good old days".

I thought that was Datalounge.

Not quite the same R107. The Bloody Marys are weaker and theres no reason to don a cute outfit !

No fat, femmes, or blacks.

I miss a fun piano bar. There was one on Market Street in SF. Homos gathering and enjoying each other’s company.

8th St. on Saturday The Stud back room bar Friday or Sat The 9th Circle & the mostly new wave jukebox Tower Records Good concerts at the Ritz Christopher St and the predominantly gay West Village

I miss the days when marriage wasn't an option.

I miss not knowing what disease I picked up from my latest hook-up. The element of surprise is no longer there.

Middle school Pop rock blowjob daisy chains with my horny pals.

I'll get shit for this, but, closeted guys, or at least guys that didn't wear their sexuality on their sleeve, were always way hotter. It was exciting seeing a stranger in public and not being sure if they were gay. Lots of quick glances, body language, exchanging looks. I know we're all supposed to be loud and proud, but the mystery is gone. Liberation has taken away a surprising amount of sexual tension. Sometimes "a sure thing" is SO BORING.

Straight people and a lot of gay men stayed far, far away from leather bars. Even if you weren't into leather, the general vibe was cruisy and sexual and its own subculture.

I never got into The Leather Journal and all the ridiculous beauty-pageant stuff (Mr. Leather Pup 1987) but it was nice to go to a place where there was desire in the air.

r115 That was endlessly frustrating for me... older dudes were scared shitless of me but it wasn't really cruisy areas but like at the beach or camp grounds in the days when all the showers were outside with no partitions and no one gave a shit about nudity. while guys around my age, at the time, were mostly toilet trolls and just played too fucking coy or just wanted to watch/be watched. Though I had better luck with leaving messages in those isolated mens room every university seemingly had.

r116 motorcycle pubs were the middle ground...

leather clubs were oppressive, serious, inside and all judy garland in the parking lot.

motor pubs just had more of your skeevy and thuggish guys that were probably into a few kinks but escaped the old guard vs new guard territorial pissing matches.

The problem with the leather scene is that rarely do the guys wearing fetish gear have the body for it. Nothing sadder than a slobbering overweight, or painfully thin underweight, leather queen.

I miss not having to stand in line with women to use a urinal at a fucking gay bar.

Back when grotesque roidy gym bodies were not a thing. As long as you had a good face and a trim proportionate body, that was enough to be considered hot.

when pinkwashing was specifically about targeting corporations that sponsored pride events but donated to anti-gay initiatives and politicians before it was hijacked to protest one nation and one nation only.

when lgbt centers were for the community and not for celebs or politicians to rehab their p.r.

90'S RAVES

Not sure I miss much. I came of age in the early 1980s and right when I'm about to take a few steps out of the closet, the newspapers start to report about the 'gay cancer.' I remember all the names -- GRID, the ironic commercials for chocolate flavor diet suppressant AYDS; the outrage over the government doing nothing but the media did tons. Donahue, Geraldo and Oprah did a lot of shows on AIDS.

Ryan White. Paul Michael Glaser's wife and kids. I'm one of those people that made the choice to do not much and now I'm paying the price being alone. Sure, there's a small window I can still climb through.

And once I get my monkey pox vax shots I might try. Life is short.

[quote]when pinkwashing was specifically about targeting corporations that sponsored pride events but donated to anti-gay initiatives and politicians before it was hijacked to protest one nation and one nation only.

When nobody, absolutely nobody, threw words like "pinkwashing" around.

r69 I'm masturbating!

I miss when being gay was not the only interesting thing about another man.

r125 so, before civilization then?

r124, we must be the exact same age.

I also remember the "Don't Forget Your Rubbers" posters and PSAs with Zelda Rubinstein as Mom. She later said that it cost her work but it was worth it.

Zelda's advocacy seems forgotten today. It shouldn't be. No one else in Hollywood was doing this kind of thing.

NO INSTAGRAM !!!

We were living in Paradise and we didn't even know it.

Driving to the bottom of the hill to find dick on the beach (or in the parking lot) at Ocean Park Blvd.

posting vague M4M ads on Craigslist

turning to the back of literally any book you found and searching for "gay" or "homosexual" in the index

getting aroused by inane things, like the men's pajamas section of a JC Penney catalog

adam4adam

being overjoyed and titillated when any TV show had gay characters. Especially MTV's "Undressed," MTV's "Road Rules," HBO's "Real Sex," HGTV's "House Hunters," E!'s "Howard Stern," etc...

using condoms

less specific to gays, but "in real life" subcultures. Especially goths, punks, straight edge/ hXc, emo kids, crunk rappers (Who? MIKE JONES).

there is now so much more freedom to be authentically yourself, which I applaud and cherish. However there is also now, paradoxically, a soul-crushing homogeneity imposed on all people. Today, everyone is uniquely special and valuable, which is great. but there used to be much starker contrasts between good/bad; mainstream/subversive.

I don't miss the crushing societal shame, actual "in real life" bullying, second class citizenship

Early internet was kind of fun, albeit low-rent, but social media ruined everything.

Aww, you blokes have made me feel a bit misty-eyed reading about your experiences from before my time (born '81, came out '01 - got in a couple of good years before social media took over). I would've loved to have experienced some of the things like you boys did. I particularly enjoy the idea of more standard bodies and friendliness/sense of community.

I really enjoyed reading it all.

I have a question that I was wondering. What, to you, would the ideal version of gay liberation look like, if we had gone our own way, rather than follow heterosexual norms? If that makes sense?

Please keep sharing more x

R4, R20, R22: I agree with all these posts. I came of age in San Diego County (CA), spefically, Chula Vista, CA, located half way between Downtown San Diego and the US/Mexico border. I don't drive, so in order to go out I had to take public transporation to the bars in Hillcrest. At the time, I felt I was doing something secretive, so it made my trip to the bars, exicting.

What was the 80’s New Wave night called at the Crow Bar in the East Village? It eventually moved to the Pyramid Club, but was never quite the same. That was my most happiest and gayest place,I want to say it was 1984, but that doesn’t sound exactly right?

I was a child then, but I imagined the freewheeling abandon of the ‘70s disco era would be the closest thing to heaven on earth. To this day I’m infatuated by anything related to Studio 54. I thought being able to do the splits would be the height of cool, but never have been able to.

For you nostalgic people, wouldn’t it be easy to just go to Texas or Florida and feel the thrill of danger and forbidden fruit again.

I miss the days when young gay men loved sex and didn't being a whole lot of neurotic, activist, feminist perspectives to it. Also, naturally slim men. Despite the excess of buff types on social media, many young men are just doughy and pasty looking now.

@r138, How ironic, but back in the day Gays would go to places like Ft Lauderdale or Miami to feel MORE out and liberated. How times have changed

I miss not having to conform, to being free. No offense to anyone who feels differently, but I don't want to get married. I want a true gay culture again. I'm in Philly and when Giovanni's Book Room closed, that was the end of an era. It's just a damn shame that we've been co-opted and on top of that the trans movement have pushed gay men back again, all of it based on the hard work and lesbians over the decades.

^^ The hard work of gay men and lesbians

I miss visiting a new city and using a Damron’s guide to check out the gay bars and venues. It was always an unknown and adventure. If it was one of the few gay places in an entire state, it offered a glimpse into a secret world. Would the places be as described or even still open? There was a certain exhilaration to travelling while gay that relates to the ‘hidden society’ others have mentioned in this thread. There are no more secrets or surprizes anymore as so many gay places are gone and what’s left is well known online with reviews ad naseum and frequented by the general population. The closest thing to Damron’s left is Squirt and its ilk, but that info is accessible to all as well. You don’t have to walk I to a gay bookstore to buy it. Remember those!

I miss visiting a new city and instinctively drift into the cruising area. R125, you're welcome, hon ;D

Don't get me wrong, I can definitely enjoy a jacked physique on a guy, but when every guy has the same body type now it is so boring. And I've never really been keen on body hair removal. Whether you are hairy or smooth, that's the authentic you, and I find that much more sexy. I always feel I was born a couple of decades too late, in so many cases. In this instance, I love the figures of 1970s-early 80s guys.

From my era, I do miss those first few years (2001-03) where if I was bored on a Friday or Saturday night, I would just head to our local gay bar, by myself, and be chatting with old and new friends within seconds. It was our own thing then that mainstream society wasn't interested in, and it felt like a real community. Yes, we had Gaydar, but that didn't stop people from heading out. You could chat on there and then meet up and not everything was even sexual on there. I met some great mates on there who I've never slept with.

The girls that came to the club then were either lesbians or a small number of straight girls who were totally cool, respected that they were in a gay space and weren't like the hen's parties of today. I worked as a bartender for one summer and went home with a different guy every night, or to be honest, I went around the back of the club and was blown by a different guy every night. And I would say I'm just an average looking guy too.

Then I did my gap year in London for a couple of years. The gay scene there was huge and seemed almost impenetrable - certainly not as easy to make good friends as back home in my small town. And when I came back home, Grindr had started up. I'm not a hypocrite, Grindr has been VERY handy for me, but our interactions completely changed. Gone was the thrill of hooking up with a guy who you didn't know what he looked like naked but you were excited to find out, and now you saw it all and were expected to share yourself up front. That takes a bit of the excitement out of it.

Finally, the gay clubs suddenly became "clubs for everyone", ostensibly without judgment, but when I went back and my old favourite was full of straight girls sneering: "ew! those guys are [italic]kissing[/italic]!" and "ew, that lesbian flirted with me!" I knew it was over.

As the OP, and only came out in 2013 at the age of 23, I obviously can't appreciate a range of the answers here, but I have noticed that whenever I wasn't on Grindr and maybe met another gay guy at a conference or something, my ideas about what I found attractive sometimes went out of the window because of the chemistry there, and it was exciting to wonder what would happen next.

I agree that Grindr has taken away a lot of that kind of excitement, but for shy people who don't like loud music or bright lights or clubbing etc. it was useful as a way to meet other gay people.

[quote]whenever I wasn't on Grindr and maybe met another gay guy at a conference or something, my ideas about what I found attractive sometimes went out of the window because of the chemistry there, and it was exciting to wonder what would happen next.

Absolutely. That electricity between you, pheremones and just how you feel in the moment all play such a crucial role.

[quote]I agree that Grindr has taken away a lot of that kind of excitement, but for shy people who don't like loud music or bright lights or clubbing etc. it was useful as a way to meet other gay people.

True. And if you want to have an orgasm as quickly as possible, it's handy then too. You're not always in the mood for flirtation for sure.

The local rugby club had training fields near the docks ; It was paradise. At night in summer, you could just be there naked on all 4 in the grass, hear the trees waving in the breeze and be fucked in all orifices by gorgeous sporty blokes and married muslim guys, from dusk till dawn. Just walking the dark alleys naked, knowing that a poor guy had been found dead the previous morning with defence wounds on his hands, was electrfying. The sense of excitment and danger was overwhelming. All you had to do was kneeling and there would immediately be a circle of cock around you. I went back last summer, for all times sake, and I found an endless line of white vans with women of color of all sexes wainting inside, their kids running amok, Johns driving by, and even barbecues FFS. Still it was nice to be there and feel part of the scene, vulnerable on my bike, but streetwise. Me, the irreproachable middled age husband/father tripping down memory lane...

^Where was that, R148? The bit about sporty guys and muslims is hot... the dead body is terrifying.

Community for sure.

Cruising the obscure bathroom at our local shopping mall which was a well known hookup spot. Local M4M chatrooms on AOL, and making arrangements to meet there.

Gay novelty card shops! In the 80’s these were big. They sold wacky ironic greeting cards (often with drag queens on them… or beefcake), framed Nagel prints, neon flamingo signs, boxing nuns, scented erasers, ceramic Mardi Gras wall masks, and those glitter wands with little star pillows and ribbons hanging off them. There would always be some queen behind the counter with asymmetrical bangs and an up-turned collar blasting new wave or showtunes. They were often in gay neighborhoods or gay district strips… but often popped up in “normal” malls around the US with no protest, like a little stealth non-bar gay bar slipping into middle American unnoticed.

I never knew it because I'm not that eldergay (though close) but I get a sense that once upon a time we were much more laid back, much less superficial. Kind of this subculture that was private, perhaps secretive? Our spaces didn't feel like the ordeal that eventually manifested as lip gloss and Prada queens and muscle Marys and all that bullshit. For all we bang on about the diabolical heteronormativity when it comes to relationships, it's really got us by the balls best when it comes to superficiality and group think. In almost all of us, in part at least, is a teenage girl from L.A.

When gay media was for and about gay men (and to a lesser extent, lesbians).

I showed a friend a picture of a couple on IG once and he said "he's dating himself."

Can I ask a question about the body types?

I have a view there's a strict hierarchy in gay men that hews to body top. It is rare to stray outside your caste unless that's your taste (i.e. bears, stocky, beanpoles, etc.). But it is rare your taste should stay outside your caste and there's a subconscious (or conscious) emphasis that who you fuck/date/whatever reflects on your place in the community so choosing wisely is important.

Again, I think alot of this is unspoken. To break type, you gotta have a good reason, (There's an A gay, Harvard educated over achiever I know, with a built bod and Kennedyesque teeth, who is dating a very successful theatre type - soft, slightly pudgy, definitely off-piste in every way but they seem to make it work... however I am convinced they never would have made it work had Softy not been a success in his industry, on the basis Harvard's IG never showed anybody but cookie cutter mirror images of himself until he met Softy.)

To what degree do you see this fairly narrow range of matchy-matchy, if you see it at all?

body top = body top... typo. Sorry.

I've not experienced that rigid "caste" system, as you term it, R155. I've fucked all body types, as a slender, toned guy myself. In real life I've found the only people who date and or hang around with guys who look exactly like them, or worry about what other people think are very shallow guys who aren't very interesting to be around in the first place.

But R157, do you find / have you observed the mirror effect to be a majority or minority in the gay community? In my life it's all seemed rare to stray outside your place in the ranks and am trying to figure out if that's just me or the extent to which it is a common experience.

Hmm, it's a good question, but I honestly can only think of a few specific cases where guys looked the same (a friend of mine, who, to be really honest is quite obsessed with himself is in a relationship with a guy who looks just like him, and I remember once going out to a gay bar and seeing a group of guys who all looked the same, but other than that, nothing strikes me). Mostly, variety seems to be more of the thing.

It is with me anyway. I'm a pale skinned, redhead. While I would sleep with guys of all types, my absolute favourite are Arab and Mediterranean type men.

R152 Dorothy’s Surrender in the French Market was the best!

R152 Yes, there was one in my local mall in the 80’s, in a middle class white suburb. It was the gayest place in town!

This thread is a fun read, but I really can't wrap my head around sex in parks and in bushes. That just seems so dangerous, maybe that was the appeal.

@r152, Brushstrokes, Atlanta is such a place...

R162, I get your point but, yeah, once upon a time there was a kind of rebellious thrill about the illicitness of parts of life. I get that, I get the evolution to settling down and being an old, heteronormative married couple... it's the relenteless thumpa-thumpa music middle bit I found so tedious, personally. God, that stretch was boring. Same people, same looks, same music, same everything. Zzzzzzzz.

We used to have a store on Avenue Road in Toronto called Mad Company. I bought the I bumped into Tammy Faye at the Mall t-shirt there.

[quote] ^Where was that, ? Are you "asking for a friend " ?I don't wanna say R149 because I'm honourably known in my little suburb, let's say, south of north. The married muslim guys were obsessed with clean asshole. "are you clean ? are you clean ?" (sure, hon, it's 2 am , I'm spread in the mud with your cock in my mouth, 63 guys have already ejaculated over me, what do you expect ?). Yeah the dead guy that cruising queens had heard, but not seen , howling in the dark was kinda scary, but also exciting, I remember running for dear life several times, warning fellow cruisers that they were in danger gurls, and all of us fleeing on our motorbikes like a swarm of bees.

^I was thinking more, which country? But I respect you not wanting to say.

[quote]Gay novelty card shops! In the 80’s these were big. They sold wacky ironic greeting cards (often with drag queens on them… or beefcake), framed Nagel prints, neon flamingo signs, boxing nuns, scented erasers, ceramic Mardi Gras wall masks, and those glitter wands with little star pillows and ribbons hanging off them. There would always be some queen behind the counter with asymmetrical bangs and an up-turned collar blasting new wave or showtunes.

I don't miss those. There was a sub-current, too, a not small selection of Mammy-abilia recipe books, cards, cookie jars... Even among these shops whose trade was in kitsch and worse, these items stood out for their genuinely bad taste in the 1980s heyday of these shops.

I recall that when I travelled I would always stumble upon "the gay shop" in whatever gay ghetto, and they all had exactly the same terrible stuff.

[quote]Gay novelty card shops! In the 80’s these were big.

I especially enjoyed buying gay cards produced by a company called 10%, so named because we believed gays and lesbians made up 10% of the population. I got them at Lambda Rising in DC (a gay bookstore with a large selection of cards).

The gay novelty card shops that were at the mall always had sexy girls in swimsuits cards mixed in with the beefcake, so it didn’t seem too obvious.

Sex in parks was FABULOUS. As a student I used to spend almost every night under the stars. Free entertainment! I remember getting off with this hot number in the middle of a raging electrical storm: we were rolling round naked in the mud, flashes going off everywhere. And I met so many fascinating people in the process: the drop dead gorgeous guy who came in buckets, and was kept by a Marxist contessa, etc. etc. One Elder Gay told me a very pretty lav in the park had been roaring as a beat since the 1890s. There was also this Black guy who had absolutely no filter: he used to walk the city streets in the tiniest lycra shorts in all weathers, his big cock outlined, sometimes the tip showing below. (We're talking CBD streets, not the gay ghetto.) He'd be winking and waddling, and would drag anyone who evinced the slightest interest into the nearest public toilet. If you spotted him it was like wathing an unedited David Attenborough nature documentary: Mowgli's 50 Load Day.

As an indication of how things of changed: at a sauna the other night this guy was holding a phone in his upstretched hand videoing someone else sucking him off. Everyone wants to be a bloody Kardashian!!!

[quote]And I met so many fascinating people in the process

Are you sure met is the right word?

^ I'm sure the conversations were stimulating 🙄

what's a very pretty lav ??

Men only bars, no bitches in sight.

Park sex.

Late, late night street cruising.

As another poster said before : not KNOWING the sexual orientation of the hot guy in front of you ( I was about to type "sexual preference " but then I remember in time that we are all victims and have zero agency )

Undressing a guy and finding a full dense sweaty bush with pheromones making you feel faint and and a lean body with no tattoos!

I wonder if the amount of straight guys having occcasional sex with gay guys is back to what it was pre-AIDS? I never went looking for them but you couldn't help but get into situations. So many straight guys are up for it when the situation is right. I don't think women (and even some milk-toast gay guys) have the slightest idea how much a part of life it is.

Splash in Chelsea. Musical Mondays. Being wanted by everyone because I was young and pretty.

No R178 it must be very low at the moment. Monkeypox is worse than AIDS for them, because you could get AIDS from a female prostatuted whore, but Mpox is strictly for the gays

R173 "Do you have another Kleenex?" was always a staple of those late night conversations

The highway rest stops, along Route 80, especially. Had my heart broken many times, but had my cock sucked just as often. We would find a dark street and park and play for hours. Before he was "discovered", Jon-Erik Hexum was a semi-regular at the Lodi stop, and my God, what a big, delicious dick that boy had. He'd never reciprocate, though. Didn't matter. He came like a fountain. The state police would cruise through to harass us, but we'd come right back an hour later. The one further up 80 was close to the Delaware Water gap, and I used to spend Sunday mornings there. It was like church because you'd frequently find yourself on your knees. Once had a gang-bang back in the woods there. Sweet memories of fucking in the grass. Now they're all gone.

There were drawbacks, like the constant fear of getting AIDs, or being murdered in a dark alley . I personally was raped, and stealthed , but it was all par for the course. I never made a big deal of it. I prefered being gay in those wild days . I'm not so interested now TBH. This sad farce of marriage... No thanks

Marriage isn't a farce. It may not be for you and that's your choice or your fate, but there's no need to be intolerant. It labels you, R183.

wow . It LABELS me .(crying as I type)

Well, your choices label you more than your views on marriage but whatever.

For R184

I hope that made you feel better.

R188 are you crying ?

You're a strange and hostile type, R189. But there's a button for that.

Ok Ok I apologize, gay marriage is a very respectable thing, I'm just being a cunt for the sake of it . Sorry.. See you and your husbear soon, on Grindr

Hate to throw gas on the fire but I have a low opinion of marriage and gay marriage in particular. Every married gay couple I know has an open relationship. Often with one partner not knowing. I used to live opposite a notorious gay cruising park. I didn't know it was a cruising spot before I rented. My apartment widow overlooked the parking area so I could easily see who drove up and got out of their cars. I would see tons of guys, at all hours of the day and night cruising. It might sound exciting, but it was actually depressing. Some of them I vaguely knew, others were just guys I recognized. I'd see their nauseating social media posts about their perfect marriages, smiling on the beach, and cutesy photos with their dogs. Always humblebragging with lovey dovey pics in embrace, or jokey shots with sickly sweet comments. And then I'd see one of them an hour later schlep out of their car looking for dick after work, or later at night, or even early morning. It put me off marriage and made me question my relationships. If you have an open marriage, good for you. It's not something I would ever put up with.

[quote]Every married gay couple I know has an open relationship. Often with one partner not knowing.

That's not an open relationship.

I miss the excitement of going out at night with a few friends and no plan. No cell phone. No apps. No taking pictures with our asses out and lips puckered. Just hey, let's meet at my place and have a few drinks and see what happens. Then we'd hit the bars and everyone would do their thing. Sometimes we'd hang out together at the bar but not exclusively. We'd meet people, run into people, hit on people, get hit on. It was fun. Unpredictable. Alive. It was where we heard new music for the first time, caught up on the gossip, planned fun things. For the lack of a better way to put it, I felt like I was part of something.

R192 = thanks ! R193 =THAT'S NOT THE POINT! your post is so typical of your generation.

I think the marriage thing is bad - for the exact opposite reason of R192. Because I believe the idea of never having another sex partner other than your spouse after you get married at 27 is absurd and a fantasy. I don’t think it EVER happens. The only question is why marriage - or monogamy - is something people believe will make them happy.

@r195, Um, yes that is the point. You don't know what an "open relationship" is

People get married straight or Gay for a multitude of reasons. Stop trying to pin your definition on other people's lives. You look stupid

R197 you are so dumb ! we all know what it means and what you mean !!! big picture please !you're so busy fucking flies in the butt. the general idea is more important than the details here. you are so excrutiating ! open relationship ! semi-open relationship ! polyamorous relationship ! genderfluid ! queer ! asuxual! lgbtrxdfkgur!

Does R192 imagine those people would be more successful in relationships if there was no marriage?

marriage should be for religious people only, whose religion requires monogamy. Civil partnership is good enough for everybody else.

There are all kinds of relationships. Be careful of your choices. Things are not always as they appear.

@r199, Your mom called, diner's ready 🙄

^ dinner*

I've always thought we would have had infinitely less trouble from the straights if we had pressed for full rights domestic partnerships that gave us the same rights as classic marriage. The heteros probably wouldn't have had shit fits because we weren't attacking "their" institutions, and we'd have everything we needed or wanted.

But I'm old, so what do I know.

I don't get why so many gay men want to take away the right to marry from other gay men. (^R201.). You don't want to get married, don't.

Oh good R103, thanks I'm starving, My hearing aid is not wworking so well these days. COMING, MOTHER! (Schlepping up the stairs from the basement)

^ Why is that the most believable thing you've said in this thread? 🤔

See R208 ? I'm still charming. That's me. I've always been incredibly cunty and incredibly charming at the same time . love you all. I'm going to eat, for real.

[quote]I've always thought we would have had infinitely less trouble from the straights if we had pressed for full rights domestic partnerships that gave us the same rights as classic marriage. The heteros probably wouldn't have had shit fits because we weren't attacking "their" institutions

When gay marriage was on the ballot in my state, the Republicans said, "Marriage is reserved for straights, but we're fine with domestic partnerships for gay people."

Gay marriage was voted down. Practically the next day, Republicans introduced a bill to make it illegal for public employers to grant domestic partnership benefits. Before the bill could advance in the legislature, the state supreme court did the work for them and ruled that the state couldn't grant such benefits.

I don't think any marriage should be recognized by the state. Marriage is a religious sacrament best left to the church. Problem solved

R211 How stupid. So it would be up to the church to decide who gets a pension or not after a spouse dies? Great.

^ You missed the point. Your pension dies with you, just like being single

R211 is right; The civil partnership should cover these issues. Gay "marriage " is even more ridiculous than straight "marriage " for people who aren't even religious.

I can't believe we're back here. We are full and equal. What they get, we get, whatever it is, whatever it is called.

[quote] You missed the point. Your pension dies with you, just like being single

You know hets would never go for that, so why should we?

Someone mentioned the "I Ran Into Tammy Faye at the Mall" gay novelty T-shirt.

I remember that, as well as the one of the Wicked Witch writing "SURRENDER DOROTHY" and one with three check boxes: Buffy, Jody, Sissy. Of course Sissy was checked.

But I don't really miss them.

@r216, Because it's the only fair option under Equal Protection Under the Law. Either everyone gets access to the same benefits or no one does.

What's with all the circa 2008 comments on marriage belonging to religion and gays being better off without it? I thought we'd moved on from that. And elsewhere on this board, comments about how gay teachers should keep completely silent on their home lives? Either there are gay men out there who are still desperate to kow tow to (their perception of) what straight people want, or there are a lot of non-gay people coming here just to stir up trouble.

If you don't want marriage, don't get married. I fought for marriage rights before we got them in my country but have no interest in getting married myself. It's about having the same rights and protections as the rest of society. Growing up/living your life knowing that you have the same standing in society as everyone else does wonders for our mental health. I can't tell you how much more laid back I am since we got equal rights in my country, despite not wanting to be married myself, as I said. "Separate but equal" doesn't work.

What country would that be Mr Sanctimonious " I know better than thou" ? . And sucking dick doesn't make you another species, you're still a man like "the rest of society" . If you want marriage and kids, put a ring on a frau, they're desperate to find anyone who would anyway.

I'm not being sanctimonious, I'm just startled that these same old discussions are still being had when I thought we'd moved on from it. And I stand by what I said: if you don't want to get married, don't do it. But don't insist other people shouldn't be able to just because you don't believe in it.

^ These same old discussions are being rehashed, because after Roe v Wade overturn, we may be next

So R220, just to be clear, it's not ok for R219 to advocate for gay marriage but it is ok for you to exclude it, bundled up with a bunch of prejudices? Asking for a friend.

Basically just gay bars, coffee places, bookstores, etc.—independent businesses that had their own vibes and were part of their neighborhoods, and had that special gay electricity. Their demise seems like part of a broader homogenization of the culture.

I miss gay men.

Not the freakshow that passes for gay these days.

Roe vs Wade was a relic of the 70's that was long overdue. killing human beings has never been a right, sorry fraus, it was always a big wrong.It' has nothing to do whatsoever with gay marriage. Gay men don't kill infants. Just because a bunch of whores insist on having unprotected sex with randos doaes'nt mean they can hide under the umbrella. They're worse than Polanski and, co, these guys just raped children, they kill them. Use a condom, bitch

Really R226 ? Unless you have a vagina ,womes health is NO mans fucking business. Period. Im sorry your mother hurt you so much.Its obvious you hate women.

@r226, I get the feeling that you think of The Constitution as a "relic of the 18th century" as well

You win...

[quote] womes health is NO mans fucking business

well it IS honey, wether you like it or not. You can't just ask a dentist to randomly remove a tooth. Or a bone . Think about it

I honestly cannot think of anything.

[quote] womes health is NO mans fucking business

You imbecile might want to rethink that, when you'll need an appointment for your breast cancer treatment

R129, this is good for her moment. But in interviews , Zelda seems bitter and caustic with repressed anger .

Playgirl in the 70s and 80s. A large bush was considered a masculine trait in those times. Most of the models in the magazine at the time had exceptional ones.

R233 thank you, i miss those pictures

who was the guy on the right of R234 pic ? he was a famous whore

There doesn’t seem to be any interesting counterculture right now. Or am I missing it?

There doesn't seem to be any counterculture, period. You're not missing it: it's not there.

Yes, I loved those 70s Playgirl bushes.

I miss NOT being under surveillance in every square foot of this planet. It was much easier to have clandestine encounters in certain areas of town. Cruising areas were not just random places; men would often scope out a place or area deemed safe. Now you can be seen everywhere by street cameras, dash cams, doorbell cams, trail cameras, light pollution. Hooking up somewhere used to be an ephemeral experience.

Thats for real R239 ! I adored cruising . No ducking off behind a store to suck a dick now.

Fucking without rubbers. Sex with poppers.

Being able to walk down a Manhattan street without being knifed, shot, or sucker punched.

I’m confused R242 - I think you mean “with”. NYC was waaaay more dangerous when I was a young. I miss the seediness and cops having more to do than arrest people for making noise. It’s why I moved to the NYC of Taxi Driver, Mr. Goodbar, Cruising - not the Sex and the City version we live in now.

The violent crime rate in NYC today has risen recently from its rock-bottom level.

Unsurprisingly, as NYC’s crime rate today is about a third of what it was in 1980.

Gay activist meetings in the finished basements of suburban homes. The owners were always gum-popping lesbians, and we'd argue for hours about rights, and prejudice, and new cruising spots.. Every meeting would be attended by dismissed schoolteacher John Gish. (Google him, kids. He's still kickin' down in Key West). Then I'd always offer someone "a ride home" and get laid in the backseat of my Mustang.

R244: Maybe it should be or maybe it shouldn't, but it's not NYC's annual crime rate seem across time that alarms people, it's the spate of stories about horrific acts of random violence done by crazy motherfuckers to innocent people going about their business on the subway, pushing a baby carriage, walking down a street in a smart section of the city, getting into a cab...

You can shift some if the blame to what stories are reported and how, and part of the blame onto ignoring overall significant declines in total crime stats, but enough stories about someone having her head smashed into the pavement while waiting for a subway car, or getting shot in the face because of a customer's dissatisfaction with his duck sauce - enough if that shit and no one gives a duck about the curve of total crime stats.

You were saying R246

Random and unprovoked

More randomness

On the job

A new kind of crime

afraid to go out at night

a feeling of helplessness

on the job stress

Charming things like you. Oh, I thought you said don't miss.

When it wasn't overrun by LGBTQQIA2S+ (or whatever the fuck it is), Inc. I'll just shorten it to Queer, Inc. "Will and Grace" ruined everything. Now fucking bachelorette parties want to hang out at the Eagle and the queer ones think that's great.

Well, as usual this thread went to total shit 🙄

[quote] NYC was waaaay more dangerous when I was a young. I miss the seediness and cops having more to do than arrest people for making noise. It’s why I moved to the NYC of Taxi Driver, Mr. Goodbar, Cruising - not the Sex and the City version we live in now.

Do you hear that, NYC cops? You need to make NYC more dangerous and seedy so this queen gets what she bargained for when she moved to NYC! Please be less vigilant and be worse at your jobs!

No Internet. It was another world.

I'm 59 and I miss the gay ghettos. There was an unspoken kinship; it was our own space. We felt safe, comfortable and we could be our true selves.

R243 New York has for some time now been nothing like Sex in the City. There is really no nightlife Splash, Pyramid, The Roxy, The Tunnel . . . are all gone. Chelsea and the West Village are largely families with children and most of the venues in the East Village and The Bowery are largely hetero college and/or trust fund kids.

The party animal that is Eric Adams is snorting while NYC burns.

R247-This happened at 1am? He must have just gotten out of the midnight performance of A Strange Loop.

Like others:

Being gay was a subversive act.

Liberation rather than assimilation

The sense of community amongst gay men and lesbians. I'm sick of the Balkanization crap today!

So, what would true liberation for gay men and women look like to posters here, especially coming out of the context of what was happening in the 70s? A liberation that wasn't following heterosexual norms, I mean. I'm really interested in hearing people's thoughts on this, what people at the time might have been hoping for, etc.

Dear R265, "posters" here don't care about women, and women 's liberation. "We" don't hate you either. "We" would just like to have a space where "we" can feel free to express ourselves, among ourselves. "We" are not your allies, "we" are not your friends," we" are not interested in being your pets, but "we" are not your ennemies either, your sort is just incredibly annoying because you don't get it. we would really appreciate if you could leave this website alone...could you pleasr dear R265, just fuck off ? get the fuck outta here ? please ?

Huh, R266? I think you are mistaken.

I'm not a woman. I'm a gay man. I came out in 2001 at 20 years old. I missed all the 70s stuff that many people on here talk about so fondly, and I'm interested. A lot of posters here speak about the goal being liberation not assimilation and I was genuinely curious to hear what the ideal would look like to those who feel this way.

You're going to drive yourself mad thinking the worst of everyone all the time.

A bit late for that advice, R267, to read the post. The "word" "posters" "wasn't" "even" "used". Somebody's spoiling for a fight. The those were the days version of get off my Ramble.

ok R267 if the worst is being a woman, you're my pal. This is just me , of course, but the "gay" stuff is total bullshit created by north american feminists, and politically, a huge bullying designed to create marketing targets , consumers groups, "communities", who willn spend a constant flow of $$$ to support the lifestyle, call it whatever. Liberation for me as a young man, would have meant the freedom to be among men without the constant pressure of my sisters, classmates, female friends etc, to fuck them and/or support their "freedom", OR ELSE (you're a faggot). We men are very naive. We don't know what it means to be pregnant all the time, to be forced to take daily a chemical pill to avoid pregnancy, and so on. Of course they want power, they don't want to risk rejection, they want us to be labeled and clearly identified so as to get us out of the way, but still enjoy objectifying us and subtely humiliate us by signifying we 're not "real"men. So freedom, would have been finding a space where we do what we do, and are not labelled by the babykillers. Oh, and for R268 :

[quote] eration for gay men and women look like to posters here

Can't you even read, moron ?

No but I can diagnose.

well, learn, reading will bring you joy.

The weirdly woman hating gay incel has revealed itself. Sad.

R272 that all you got ? are you crying ?

If it's the joy you present, I'm good. But thanks for coming out.

R274 no worries sister, feel free to come here, I can still vote

I miss being young, dumb and full of cum.

Assimilation is overrated.

Lesbian bars.

R265 What you’re reading is older gay men expressing their sadness about evolution. Being gay doesn’t exempt us from these feelings. Since our liberation came about around the same time as all the different 60s revolutions (sexual, racial, women), I’m sure you could find examples among them of adults, post revolution, in the midst of enjoying the fruits of their labor, expressing sadness for the banality of life. I understand what a lot of them are saying and expressing. I’m GenX. My existence consisted of both enjoying the fruits of the Baby boomers’ labor, and working to lay the groundwork for other battles (gay adoption,marriage). My feet in two different places. I’m late 40s now, my youth is behind me. Life consists of traversing the challenges of middle age with a longtime companion and two cats that are my everything. I’m overly analytical and self aware. I experienced the last twenty years, with its highs and lows, and know and understand how the future will play out. I’m mostly hoping for the Mayan 2012 prediction of some cataclysmic event, to just be a few years off-schedule.

That's a good point, R279. Your formative years imprint your whole life. Maybe we are partly drawn to that part of life before we clued in wholly to the reality of life, as you describe as that understanding of how the future will play out. I was a young man during the AIDS crisis. We often get accused of equating sex with disease or death. While I still shake my head at the current cavalier disregard for STIs and the risks that poses to the collective (hello Monkeypox spread), I think there is some truth in the broadest sense to the imprint of that experience. I think to appreciate - and maybe pine - for those years between Stonewall and the 80s plague, you really had to live them.

[quote] We didn't have to cater to straight wymyn expections of how we should conduct our lives.

If you're doing that, or even remotely conscious of it, you're pathetic.

Being an independent gay man is about NOT having to conform to expectations, straight or gay. It's permission to do what works best for that individual gay man.

When Boystown was called Boystown and not Northalsted. Take the extra “H” out of the new word, it’s too homo and offends the trans folks.