Was Oscar Hammerstein II really that mediocre as a lyricist?

His lyrics were fine, but his haircut was mediocre.

This thread wins the Palme D'Or for the gayest DL thread of the year.

In her posthumous memoir, Mary Rodgers echoes some of Sondheim's unkind comments about Hammerstein, especially that his love of birding worked itself too much into his lyrics so that we got stupid lyrics such as "Like a lark who is learning to pray" from "The Sound of Music."

But I always think going after the lyrics from "The Sound of Music" hasn't been fair, since it was Hammerstein's last show, written when he was sick from stomach cancer and an old man. ( I don't think Sondheim would want people to judge him primarily by his lyrics for "Passion" and "Road Show.") Hammerstein's early work for "Show Boat," for example is fantastic, and some of his lyrics for that are as clever as much of what Sondheim wrote--for example:

FRANK: "Little girl you are safe with me,

I can protect what's mine!

I am a sturdy maple tree,

And you're my clinging vine!"

ELLIE: "Woods are just full of maple trees,

Cedar and oak and pine!

Let me look them over, please,

And I will let you know

If you have a show..."

[quote] This thread wins the Palme D'Or for the gayest DL thread of the year.

Well honey, I [bold]am[/bold] gay--gayer than an Ungaro spring frock. Gayer even than a lark who is learning to pray!

So, I feel honored.

I say it with love, OP!

I say it with love, like a sweet turtledove

Soaring above the land we all love.

I think this is great:

Many a light lad may kiss and fly

a kiss gone by is bygone,

never have I asked an August sky

where has last July gone?

A complex lyric that sounds simple and at the same time is a perfect expression of character.

And then Surrey With the Fringe On Top is pure genius. One of his lark songs.

'Out of my dreams and into the hush of falling shadows' That is very very beautiful stuff.

This is good shit:

to laugh like a brook

when it trips and falls

o'er stones across it's way

[quote]This thread wins the Palme D'Or for the gayest DL thread of the year.

It should be called the "Monkeys That Look Like Nanette Fabray Award."

Hammerstein is a mixed bag. He could go from very good to lazy in the same show. The bird thing is weird. It's kind of a go-to when he couldn't come up with something, it seems.

R3 - It sounds like Ellie is telling Frank to show her his wood. I approve.

I Might Fall Back on You is written to be a parody or pastiche of a popular song or nightclub number from the turn of the last century.

[quote] But I always think going after the lyrics from "The Sound of Music" hasn't been fair, since it was Hammerstein's last show, written when he was sick from stomach cancer and an old man.

They’re among the most popular songs ever written, so there’s that.

And "The Sound of Music" was written for a young woman who grew up in the mountains and was studying to be a nun. Larks and praying were part of her life.

He wrote some pretty dreadful plays over the years, even though some of them had respectable runs in their day. His lyrics were generally better than his books. For every Show Boat there was a Golden Dawn or an East Wind. By the time he teamed up with Richard Rogers on Oklahoma!, he had nearly a decade of flop shows behind him, even though some of them contained lovely songs that became standards.

But larks neither pray nor prey. So "a lark that is learning to pray" is nonsensical, and "a lark that is learning to prey" is against their nature.

[quote] his love of birding worked itself too much into his lyrics so that we got stupid lyrics such as "Like a lark who is learning to pray"

I think this "lark" business has more to do with the clichés of English poetry (going back to Shelley)—and in this case of Austrian scenery—than to any real birdwatching experience, since there's only one species of lark in the Americas, the horned lark, which isn't all that conspicuous (and would never be accused of learning to pray—or prey).

"To sing through the night like a lark who is learning to pray"

And why would the diurnal lark be up all night singing?

No wonder his songs are so popular, he certainly had a face for radio!

Wait, so we're just going to discuss the comment blithely on its merits without focusing on the real issue: Sondheim winning the Sows at the Trough Award for making the bitchiest comments this side of a pandemonium of parrots in a tree?

We're being sneery and condescending about the man who wrote the lyrics to "If I Loved You"? And criticizing his looks? This is DL at its worst.

As for Mr. Sondheim's snarky observations....sure, Rose. Whatever.

I think Sondheim was unnecessarily harsh when he spoke of Hammerstein for two reasons, one understandable, one pathological:

1) To establish distance between himself and his famous mentor (understandable)

2) to express anger towards his father, but direct it at his father-substitute (pathological)

[quote]I think Sondheim was unnecessarily harsh when he spoke of Hammerstein for two reasons, one understandable, one pathological:

An interesting and insightful comment - quelle surprise.

His song with the cleverest lyrics from TSOM got cut from the film:

"No little shack do you share with me,

We do not flee from the mortgagee,

Nary a care in the world have we,

How can love survive?

(You're fond of bonds and you own a lot!)

I have a plane and a diesel yacht!

(Plenty of nothing you haven't got...)

How can love survive?"

There have been so many worst lyricists than the man who put words to "Ol' Man River."

Isn't that Martin Charnin over there?

^^ Worse lyricists. Sorry. ^^

R23 I agree. And interestingly enough, those lyrics are as close to Lorenz Hart's type of lyrics as Hammerstein probably ever got. Sarcasm and irony weren't Hammerstein's long suit. Sondheim also dissed Hart as being a lazy lyricist, but I find a lot of Hart's lyrics more accessibly clever and witty than Sondheim's more cerebral version of humor.

[quote] But larks neither pray nor prey. So "a lark that is learning to pray" is nonsensical, and "a lark that is learning to prey" is against their nature.

R15 But remember, Maria was a flibbertigibbet, a will-o-the wisp, a clown, so her lyrics didn't have to make sense.

Very Sondheimesque lyrics from "Allegro":

ALL: "What a lovely day for a wedding!

There's a lively tang in the air--

It's a treat to meet at a wedding

When families are letting down their hair!

What a lovely day for a wedding!

We have come by motor and shay--

It's a treat to meet at a wedding,

And say what we usually say!"

THE TAYLOR FAMILY: "What can he see in her?"

THE BRINKER FAMILY: "What can she see in him?"

THE TAYLOR FAMILY:"The Brinkers all are stinkers!"

THE BRINKER FAMILY: "All the Taylor crowd is grim!

What can she see in him?"

THE TAYLOR FAMILY: "What can he see in her?

ALL: "In many things we differ,

But in one thing we concur:

It's a lovely day for a wedding!

What a day for two to be tied--

It's a lovely day for a wedding!"

NED BRINKER: "But not for the father of the bride!"

Sondheim = Snobby bitch.

You're telling me that Sondheim and Hammerstein lived in the county bordering mine?! Pretty cool.

I’m as busy as a spider spinning daydreams

I’m as giddy as a baby on a swing

I haven’t seen a crocus or a rosebud

Or a robin on the wing

But I feel so gay in a melancholy way

That it might as well be spring

Sondheim was generally discreet about commenting on the the talents of living songwriters. Once they died, the gloves were off.

Sondheim vastly overrated himself as a lyric writer and not one ever challenged him. He was self indulgent and too pleased with himself. He put down the top tier Larry Hart while he himself wrote

"What's the muddle in the middle?

That's the puddle where the poodle did the piddle."

Too self conscious by half and always takes me straight out of the show. The characters involved would never have said those words.

We've no time to sit and dither while her withers wither with her.

vs

Shall we dance? Shall we dance? Shall we dance?

In our mountain greenery,

Where God paints the scenery,

Just two happy people together!

Beans could get not keener re-

Ception in a a beanery

Than our mountain greenery home!

^ no keener, not not keener. fie on me.

r35, that's Lorenz Hart, not Oscar Hammerstein.

Sondheim. Well, you know how bitchy fags can be?

[quote]Shall we dance? Shall we dance? Shall we dance?

Well it *is* a dance number, r34, and an iconic one at that.

R37 That’s probably why all the lyrics make sense unlike some of Hammerstein’s whoppers quoted above.

Hart's lyrics broadcast their wit. I'm with r7.

And her long yeller hair falls across my face just like the rain in a storm