Church of Scientology

I don’t have any firsthand experience, but a friend of mine went into one of their (bookstores?) back in the day & was going to be audited. I think she said you’re supposed to hold like two metal rods while you’re being asked a series of questions. She went in just for kicks.

Anyway, the guy who’s doing the auditing went to the back to get something or other, & while he was gone, she saw he had like a cheat sheet or script to follow. The only part I remember was she said it said “impinge upon the person…” which freaked her out to no end, & she ran out of there before the guy came back.

I called it a bookstore, but I don’t know what it was, service center? Recruitment spot?

That's what I'm talking about. "Here, hold these two metal rods while I drill down into your psych." Wtf? Super strange group.

A late partner of mine once innocently ordered L Ron Hubbard's book, Dianetics, from them, and forever afterwards was bombarded with enticements to join their cult. Let the buyer beware.

CoS has been suffering a slow death since around the turn of the century. The internet made it too difficult for them to keep intimidating and silencing their critics, and the mainstream press eventually started getting bolder. Die-hards will never deviate from the gospel of L. Ron, but all you need to look at is the quality of the celebrity members. The loudest and most passionate ones are people 20-30 years past their peak of fame. There are some second-generation and third-generation members who are younger, but I don't think they're as committed as the celebs from the peak period. Even Elisabeth Moss usually just changes the subject.

I don't think you can class the people brought up in the cult in the same way as adults who decided to join.

The internet will be the death of Scientology but David MIscavige started the decline.

It'll still exist because many children are raised in the cult and thus indoctrinated. People like Tom Cruise already was indoctrinated in his Christian faith and simply changed religions. So that segment of overly religious people who join cults will remain. But overall most Americans are becoming less religious on a whole and globalization and the internet has helped exposed young people to a bigger world. Religions only prosper in insular and impoverished communities. I've seen Scientology temples in New York City in lower class neighborhoods, so they are now reaching out to poor people and minorities instead of rich white celebs.

I don't mind them. Like if you are dumb enough as an adult to join them, it's on you. I only feel sorry for the children who are forced to grow up in that mess.

Documentaries have shown that the organization has boasted for years that it's "the fastest-growing religion on Earth," and that that claim is based on real estate alone; it has been losing members steadily for decades. The organization keeps bleeding its members of money, though, and it invests the money into building massive Scientology compounds all around the world. Many are entirely vacant and have never been used.

As a nonreligious person, I have to say that Scientology's mythologies are ridiculous—Xenu, a Hawaiian volcano, soul fleas—but ultimately no more ridiculous to me than a talking snake that made a woman eat an apple that destroyed life for all people to come, cramming two of every animal onto a boat to wait out a flood, the whole Revelation thing.

Also, while Scientology undeniably is a cult that brainwashes members who don't live in reality...hello, Catholics! I have a friend who is a churchgoing, church-paying Catholic and who hates and badmouths the Catholic church. She thinks the church organization and most priests are evil child rapists and haters of women, but *her* priests are not like that! She sent both her kids to Catholic school and feared the whole time her son would be raped. She told him to tell her if a priest ever sexually assaults him. I asked why she would even put her kids in such a position if she was afraid that could happen, and she just laughed nervously. She's not capable of thinking rationally when it comes to the Catholic church. And like most Scientologists, she doesn't pay any attention to the mythology of her religion, only to the dogma. She follows all the rules and observes all the holidays but can't explain why. She thinks she is a pro-choice, pro-LGBT feminist who hates misogyny and violence against women and she regularly tells me about abuses by the church but she will never consider not being a paying member of the church. When she tells me these things together, I tell her she is underwriting the sexual abuses of children and she just looks like she is going to cry. Catholicism is a cult, too. Officially, Catholics *can* leave the church without losing all their relationships, but unofficially they can't.

[quote]Catholicism is a cult, too. Officially, Catholics *can* leave the church without losing all their relationships, but unofficially they can't.

There's nothing comparable to Scientology. I don't have to speak theoretically about leaving the Catholic church; it's actually part of my history. I never lost any relationships with family or friends after leaving. I wasn't psychologically pressured to stay. Things I "confessed" weren't filed away to be held over me. I wasn't presented with an astronomical bill I'd never be able to pay as the price for "leaving in good standing." And there was no Gold Base where people were sent to do hard labor, sometimes never to be seen again, for stepping out of line and offending the Pope.

Scientologist will kill people they see as threats. Subversives I believe they call them. I thought it was amusing when Anonymous started a war with them. You know it made them crazy. I'm sure they tried to infiltrate the group but they don't work that way. They do place people strategically in all sectors and professions for covert reasons.

Catholicism is not exactly the same in every way, but it's a cult and a culture of its own. There's no escaping it. My grandmother grew up Irish Catholic. She left the church and only for Christmas mass brought my mom to church. My mom never went to church on her own and never took our family. Our whole family's operating system is still Irish Catholic guilt.

All religions are cults...but Scientology is on a WHOLE other level. Entirely.

Always been fascinated, and frightened, by cults and cult mentality, and Scientology is certainly both. I thought Leah Remini's show was one of the most fascinating things I've seen on television, and should be required viewing - as a warning, to all.

^ the Irish are especially guilt ridden. Doesn't apply to all Catholics.

R13 So guilt ridden that they voted for gay marriage and to legalise abortion in referendums. I don't think you know modern Irish people (and no, Americans don't count).

The Irish seem depressed.

JWs do the shunning thing too. If someone leaves they lose their family and friends. It's a control tactic.

R12 There are lots of similarly controlling cults out there, from the Children of God to Nexium to the Hale-Bopp people to Mason and who knows who else is out there?

Rose McGowan grew up in Children of God and escaped and she's patently insane. Glenn Close grew up in a cult and was forced to be a teen cult-pop band member that toured the world to recruit, and she escaped while on the road and was cut off from her whole family and everyone she ever knew in her life. They're all as abusive as Scientology is.

Yeah, R16, and they have their bizarre rules and practices. I worked with a former JW who was shunned. She went to college and needed a blood transfusion at some point. Her mother told her it would be better to die than to get a blood transfusion. She got the blood transfusion. She later learned JW leaders invented a loophole for themselves—they allow themselves to get platelet transfusions but don't make it widely known. According to a documentary I saw on them, the JW organization publishes a magazine for young people and it puts children who chose to die rather than to receive medical treatments on the cover as martyrs.

Is Travolta still a Scientologist?

I've read the cult has lost a ton of members worldwide. I've also read that they own a huge amount of real estate that sits empty.

[quote]And there was no Gold Base where people were sent to do hard labor, sometimes never to be seen again, for stepping out of line

Ever heard of the Congo?

Scientology is indeed a cult, but it is indeed not a religion.

[quote]Catholicism is not exactly the same in every way, but it's a cult and a culture of its own.

And their overlords wear prettier dresses.

R16, I've heard that but I've definitely seen people breaking that rule so it's confusing. For instance, Lisa M Preseley's first husband is still a member and maybe his daughter but I've seen him with LMP and his son who left the Church. Also, Beck has taken his kids to events since he left the Church and divorced their mother who is a second gen scientologist like he was. ? Idk...

R19 yes. I'm pretty certain he will die one.

I think Beck was raised in the church, wasn't he? I've heard of some people who were brought up in it and able to leave because they just didn't care, unlike recruits who are aggressively brainwashed.

Neil Gaiman was also raised as a scientologist and he does not belong to the church but also doesn't discuss it, presumably because he might lose family if he were to criticize their insanity. I find it very interesting because he has an encyclopedic knowledge of world mythologies and he writes mainly fantasy fiction, and I feel like that must be influenced by his upbringing. Tori Amos is one of his best friends and she was also raised in a strange religious nexus, with a Bible-thumping Methodist minister father and an Eastern Cherokee grandfather who taught her to observe nature-based beliefs. She's never been a scientologist but her bond with Gaiman is very interesting with respect to their religious upbringings.

Erika Christensen, on the other hand, was brought up as a scientologist and she seems very culty. This video showcases a manic fanatacism for scientology of same type Tom Cruise has shown.

Sociologists of religion and social psychologists debate what are the criteria for cults. Robert J Lifton is a seminal work but there are expansions and modifications by others. But basically the view is you have to manifest specific criteria and with an intensity. In my view the Catholic Church as a whole does not but elements within it do. Scientology manifests all the criteria and JW most.

Look up Lifton criteria for cults as a place to begin.

[...]

[quote]Leah Remini's show was one of the most fascinating things I've seen on television, and should be required viewing - as a warning, to all.

Agreed. Horrifying, heartbreaking, and (just often enough) amusing. She and Rinder were a good hosting team. I know that some viewers were still very much against them for things they did and said when they were members, but a show like that really needs people who have been on the inside and speak the lingo. It allowed them to get better interviews.

Remember when Kirstie Alley seemed like the biggest whackjob celebrity member imaginable, and then that woman who used to play Dharma was all, "Hold my beer"?

[quote]And there was no Gold Base where people were sent to do hard labor, sometimes never to be seen again, for stepping out of line and offending the Pope.

Well....

R27 That takes it to a matter of semantics, which doesn't seem particularly important. To discriminate one cult from another based on technical aspects of a checklist seems to me to distract from the matter of how damaging these different cults are.

Cults from antiquity simply describe different belief systems. There were cults dedicated to Dionysos and to Apollo and to Venus. There was a variety of Christian cults ranging from fundamentalist Jews to mystical Gnostics to others who practiced various forms of magic, all of whom described themselves as early followers of Jesus.

Most often today, a "cult" generally refers to an isolationist group of people who develop their own religious practices and social norms that are different than those of the greater Judeo-Christian Western culture. Most groups described as cults are implied to be harmful to the majority of members.

But since I was raised without religion, I can't help viewing popular religions as cults regardless of how many boxes they tick on a checklist.

People who isolate their social circles to their religious organizations, religious leaders who control their followers with mandated rules, religious organizations that facilitate abuses against members and that protect abusive leaders, members who are indoctrinated to the point they choose fantastical beliefs over what they can see in front of them, who choose to be abused themselves and to subject their children to abuse knowingly all seem like cult behaviors to me. That most certainly includes members of the Catholic church.

Just because it is big and old and allows people to come and go does not diminish its fundamental identity as a controlling, abusive, harm-causing social faction.

I also consider American-style Christianity a cult, and a far more extremist cult than Catholicism. The confusing factor is that there's no official organization that connects American denominations, but there is an overriding American Christian culture that perversely has come to fetishize guns and other war weapons, violence and hatred of various groups of people as Christian virtues. I think this is increasingly dangerous and what makes it a cult to me is that people who affiliate themselves with it are losing touch with reality and are being collectively radicalized.

[quote] And there was no Gold Base where people were sent to do hard labor, sometimes never to be seen again, for stepping out of line and offending the Pope.

Well...

OP "but I've actually really some Scientologists which is hard to do."

Ok

My Irish Grandfather excommunicated himself from the Roman Catholic Church back in the 1950's. We don't think the Vatican noticed.

My grandfather is long dead now and this happened some years before I was born. RIP Grandad

R35 Well that's sure fascinating

[quote]The Irish seem depressed.

I'll drink to that.

R35 Feel free to scroll on by. Much peace to you.

R8 0/10. I KNOW you are full of crap.

Wow this post was bait for the vile, foaming at the mouth anti-Catholic bigot trolls.

My grandmother's first husband was gay. She found out aftet they had been married for some time. Her father asked a priest for an anullment and the priest said no—that the church does not acknowledge/recognize homosexuality and therefore there are no grounds for anullment. He said she should stay married and figure out how to fix her husband. My grandmother's father told her to divorce her husband and find someone who will make her happy. She did, and she was kicked out of the church for the divorce. It devastated her life because she was raised in the Catholic cult, and it really fucked up her sense of identity. It made her feel like a failure, it filled her with resentment and rage toward the church, toward her ex-husband and toward gay men (and all men, really).

When I was a young child, she was the perfect, doting grandmother. She made me feel so loved. When I reached puberty, she became passively cruel, mainly by treating my sister very well and hardly acknowledging me at all and being cold toward me. This caused a major rift between her and my mother, her daughter, and that made me feel guilty on top of feeling rejected by my grandmother.

She and I reconciled just before she died. She told my sister and me about her first husband. She said she had always hated him for what he did to her, but she finally accepted that he only married her because he was trying to force himself to be "normal" and "good" according to the church, and he was always a good person and that is why they were best friends. His life ended tragically. He drank himself to death. She ultimately realized she didn't even need to forgive him because he did the best he knew to do, and she did the same, and ultimately their undoing was all the church's doing. On her deathbed, she told me she has always been proud of me.

I don't care how large the Catholic organization is. It's a cult. My grandmother's life was ruined by its rules and its shunning of her for someone else's identity.

[...]

Since the Catholic Church is nothing at all like the Church of Scientology, it's interesting how similarly, frantically angry Catholic defenders and Scientology defenders are. 👀

#1: there are differences between a religion and what is considered a cult... sports teams and their fans can be considered a cult, but mostly harmless, scientology is a ABUSIVE cult that is literally part north korea, part organized crime, part pyramid money scheme scam, part country club of the have and have nots, the ultimate "dangling carrot" of mumbo jumbo nonsense of self help....

#2: tom cruise: obviously something was always wrong with him and it was never addressed. Simply? What kind of person no matter who they are or think they are thinks that getting ROYALLY ASS KISSED 24/7 for over 3 decades by their "religion" and I mean ANY religion/church/faith is not only normal, okay and proper but deserved? That is seriously messed up!

speaking of cruise, what goes on in his mind, when he knows that his best friend, the sociopath leader (another improper, inappropriately, plainly wrong truth) of this "religion" own wife has not been seen in public for over 12 years and counting! Presumably he, Cruise, was friends with her as well. Think about this, if you were best friends with a guy and you haven't seen his wife in years and years, wouldn't the OBVIOUS BEYOND OBVIOUS thought be "where the hell is your wife?" "why can't I see her?" "why aren't you ever with her?" "she was everywhere and anywhere and now nowhere for all of these years?"...

what whopper of a lie could cruise have been told that he (or anyone with half a brain!) would believe? "tom, she is working working working all the time, you know KSW (keep scientology working) and wants to work and live in peace privately, so much she doesn't like to attend our scientology events or be seen in public with me! EVER!"...Or "tom, you know she disobeyed my wishes (which by the way is the alleged actual happening) so she is being punished rightfully so and is working working because of this at our very private compound there in lake arrowhead.. WHATEVER lie, what kind of fucked up person does Cruise have to be to believe either story or think it's right??....

The mystery of Miscavige's wife is curious but it seems that she just wants to lead a private life (cops have investigated):

[quote] In 2012, attorneys who said they represented her responded by saying she was merely living a private life devoted to the Church of Scientology. In August 2013, actress Leah Remini, a former Scientologist and vocal critic of the organization, filed a missing person report regarding Miscavige with the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD). Within a few days of receiving the report, the LAPD stated that they located Miscavige, and further stated that she was not actually missing, so the case was closed.

[...]

[...]

It's telling that Remini, deeply acculturated within Scientology's inner workings, suspects Miscavige was killed or is being held against her will. Even if she is not, why would Remini and other Scientologists assume that is the most likely scenario despite what police say?

[...]

Scientology has LAPD in their back pocket that's why they opened/closed the case of Shelley so quickly and to the cult's advantage. The cult does fundraisers for LAPD and buys them equipment, etc.

R45.... the LAPD is corrupted by and are enablers of scientology, willingly taken money from them at events... they actually not that long ago had signs/posters in the lobby of some of their police departments and only removed them when people objected to them..... the lead "investigator" on the missing person's case of Shelley Miscavige a lieutenant dawson I believe, himself used to give speeches and make appearances about scientology!... the LAPD told Remini that they talked to Shelley, would not give ANY details to Remini on what they asked her, what she said, where they saw her, how they knew it was Shelley and so on.... the LAPD told Remini it was all private files, but then later said that she could see the file for herself, but it would be a few weeks for all the paperwork to be completed and that was YEARS ago already and Remini never did get this paperwork information....

the idea that the wife of a "religion" leader who was anywhere and everywhere at any and all scientology events, because you know it IS her husband whose the leader and she is more or less second in command, decides spontaneously she wants to work privately 24/7 and not been seen ANYWHERE not just scientology events, but ANYWHERE for over 12 years is pretty much a ridiculous story for anyone to believe..

do scientologists also circumcise on youth?

Shelly M is leading her private life on a Scientology-owned compound. Not Gold, where most "offenders" go, a different one. I'm sure any interaction between her and police was carefully prepared and managed.

But it's true, if someone says "Oh, I'm fine, there's nothing to worry about" while the police are there, even good police can't do much. I suspect it will be a long time before that mystery is fully unraveled. One of the above posters is quite right on the facts, though: she did go against orders and earn the wrath of her husband.

Once upon a time, i gave reason to two cults to believe i was interested in them. It was amazing the lengths they went to to recruit me.

With Miss Cabbage's wife time will tell a tale. You can't be MIA for decades or something you know. Shelley basically grew up alongside L. Ron Shitfuck himself on his yacht as one of the first and youngest members of the Sea Org. Those are oftentimes the people who think that L. Ron will return back to Earth.

She has or had a husband and family and friends. There have been reports and the like that she drank the Kool Aid mightedly but was still somehow a rather congenial lady and I'd safely assume her overall nature within that cult upbringing is was Remini misses because it's apparently not like Shelley to just drop contact with her cult pals seemingly overnight. It's far out. I hate the $cienos in case you all haven't noticed.

And yeah. The police anywhere can sadly be bought.

[quote] The mystery of Miscavige's wife is curious but it seems that she just wants to lead a private life (cops have investigated):

Leah, and others in Scientology that knew this woman, all have said this is straight up bull. If you know how Scientology operates, you don't just 'go and live a private life' having been the wife of the leader, k nowing what she knows, etc. She is most likely on a Scientology compound, being watched, monitored, and more, 24/7.

Danny Masterson update:

R57- Sorry if this doesn't belong here, but I found this interesting:

Danny Masterson Rape Accusers See Church Of Scientology Petition U.S. Supreme Court .

The key difference in my eyes is Christianity, Catholicism and the like are all thousands of years old. They are tied to human history and though their power has weakened, they WERE the authority for centuries.

Scientology was made up in the 1950s. I'm baffled that anyone was able to establish a new religion in the (relatively) modern world.

I can get being caught up in Christianity and the other BS. I'm shocked that anyone would join a religion younger than Liza Minnelli.

Gee, I thought all the gaysh followed Judyism.

Most religions are too public to be cults. Animism, shamanism and polytheism seem to have arose naturally and from superstitions, folklore and mythology. I don't think those are really cultlike. Just ritualistic practices people did and usually ethnic based.

There are definitely religions that originated as cults with remnants of one. Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Christianity, Sikhism, Islam and Confucianism come to mind as religions based around some type of mystic prophet that were adopted by nation states and eventually became part of the broader culture and legal system. Ancient Mediterranean had so many cults around god figures too.

Modern day cults are very secretive and usually have a leader that has unchecked power and even worshipped as a god. Cults often oppose societal norms too. They use extreme control tactics like excommunication. Scientology and Johnson Witnesses both are very cultlike in their practices.

*Jehovah's Witnesses

[quote]I'm shocked that anyone would join a religion younger than Liza Minnelli.

...and devised by a science-fiction author. One who died in 1986, but still has an office kept in immaculate condition for him in every Scientology building, just in case he returns to resume his work.

Mormonism is odd but it has basis in Gnostic Christianity (and Islam and magic). Jehovah's Witnesses is apocalyptic millennialism which was more common in 1st century Mediterranean. I don't get either but I can see why those could be appealing and I personally don't think they're any more ridiculous than the official Christian dogmas. Scientology is just bad science fiction and I can't see how any adult could fall for it.

Mike Rinder, one of the highest ranking members to defect, has a book coming out in late September.

[quote] The key difference in my eyes is Christianity, Catholicism and the like are all thousands of years old.

[quote] Most religions are too public to be cults.

What am I, chopped liver? I own a whole state and also real estate on other planets reserved for only the nuttiest polygamists who impregnate child brides.

R64 If you read the Book of Revelation, all you will find is bad science fiction, fantasy and horror, as written by a madman with schizophrenic psychosis.

And Genesis is as insane in many places.

I am certainly biased as a person who was raised without religion, I can admit that, but I have read both Genesis and Revelation (because I studied Paradise Lost), and I have to tell you that without the context of a lifelong church telling me that that shit is normal...that shit is not normal. It's insanity documented in text. In both cases but especially in the case of Revelation, I am fully confident that the visions either resulted from 'heroic' doses of psychedelics or else from endemic psychotic episodes of the writer.

Most of the western world is indoctrinated to believe Judeo-Christian norms and texts are sane and not bizarre. Norms are by definition normalized and so I won't argue that our cultural norms are abnormal—but the narrative parts of the Bible are *not* less crazy than anything in Mormonism or Scientology.

Yes, the idea of fucking multiple brides to populate planets post mortem with your family is crazy.

Sky sheep braying and opening wax seals on heavenly documents, unleashing men on horses flying down from the sky, plagues, seven-headed, seven-horned, seven-crowned dragons plus Warrior Jesus to avenge God in a bloodbath ending in 1,000 years of peace is bad science fiction. Some of the visions of Revelation are images typical of a superhero comic and most are exactly the sorts of visions people who have bad, traumatic psychedelic trips report, and that people with schizophrenia stand around on the streets claiming is happening right now.

The founders of Scientology and Mormonism were not worse writers than the writers of Revelation. The stories are slightly different but they're in the same family of unhinged disparate anxiety fantasies stitched together to force some kind of narrative, with dictatorial laws laid down on top, and all of those laws being justified by the scary stories. It's ridiculous. I understand most people in the western world grew up in some kind of church or temple and are so immersed in this insanity that they think it is less lame than bad sci fi, but it is bad sci fi. It's not better than any story produced by the SyFy network.

God telling Noah to build a big square boat to hold all the animals of the world while he drowns everyone else is dumb. God creating the Earth as a giant sky-being and then going for a barefoot walk in a garden "to enjoy the cool of day" is dumb. God installing warrior cherubs with flame-throwing swords to guard the garden is dumb. God forbidding human beings he created from eating anything that walks, crawls, flies or swims, and then subsequently murdering most of those things and then subsequently smelling goat meat cooking over a fire and deciding it smells sweet and delicious and so all bets are off is dumb. A talking snake? Come the fuck on. Also, it's just nonsensical. In the beginning (of Genesis), "God created man, male and female, he created them." A page or two later, he created woman. He created male and female man and later on woman. Explain that one.

There's no explanation other than poor writing and poor editing of bad sci-fi fantasy stories.

The Book of Revelation is not a report of actual visions. It's poetry (maybe bad poetry) presented as a vision. It has more to do with the persecution of the early Christians by the Roman Empire than anything else. It's the writer's way of say "Hey fellow Christians this Roman shit is going to end and we're coming out on top."

R68 It is the entire basis of most evangelical American Christian denominations. They observe many of the hateful, oppressive laws of Leviticus, and they live according to apocalyptic predictions of Revelation. And they added their own bad sci-fi 'rapture' to the formula, which is nowhere in the Bobble, but which they believe is in the Bobble and which they believe is imminent. To them, the whole Christian faith is about preparing for the arrival of the Antichrist, four horsemen, dragons and a bloodbath that will zap their souls up to a heaven where Cracker Barrell biscuits are in endless supply.

[quote]I am certainly biased as a person who was raised without religion

R67, if you need to have a discussion about religion in general, start your own thread for it. Your repeated attempts to obfuscate, divert, get people to talk about subjects other than Scientology, see Scientology as not so bad relative to other religions, etc., are just coming off as strange and tone-deaf.

R69, true dat.

The Catholic Church decided to reduce its influence. It's almost never read at mass and then at funeral masses where passages about people being in heaven are read. Those evangelicals center their whole religion around it.

R70 You are welcome to block me. :)

Scientology is a cult and Scientology is a religion. This thread is dedicated to discussing that.

If you can't bear to read comparisons to Judeo-Christian cults, then simply block people who are drawing fair comparisons.

I see no rule here that forbids open discussion. Regardless of your mandate not to say anything critical of longstanding religion, I don't follow the mandates of the Pope, of David Miscavige, of Donald Trump, or of any other dictatorial cult leader.

R71 Interestingly (to me as a non-Christian), my Southern Baptist aunt yelled at my father that Catholics are "NOT CHRISTIAN!" because "they worship THAT WOMAN!" (I was personally tickled that she used Bill Clinton's infamous reference to Monica Lewinski to refer to the Virgin Mary.) And meanwhile, a Catholic friend of mine says she would never refer to herself as "Christian" because she conceives of Christians as southern evangelicals who worship guns and whose faith is based in hatred. I've asked her many times how she can not view her faith as Christian given its basis in Christian teachings, and she basically has said (in a stumbling, meandering kind of way) that Catholic churchgoers don't read the Bible and she didn't learn much in Sunday school, and to her Catholicism is about the traditions, the values, community, charity and observed holidays but not really about anything written in the Bible itself.

[quote]Scientology is a cult and Scientology is a religion. This thread is dedicated to discussing that.

But you've said virtually nothing on the topic. You have merely tried to steer the discussion elsewhere.

R74 That's not actually true at all.

Most of what I have written here has been about Scientology. I added many comments solely about Scientology early on in the thread, and then I added some thoughts comparing with Judeo-Christian faiths more recently.

Almost everything I have written has been a reference to Scientology. Not everything, but almost everything.

Do you just say things to say things?

Your defensiveness and attempts to control and redirect my contributions to this discussion are reminiscent of Scientologists' efforts to try to control and redirect any critical reference to their religion. Are you able to see that?

R73 I heard somewhere that if you went to mass everyday you would hear about 75% of the NT and maybe 25% of the OT (and most of that Psalms as one is recited at every mass) over a year. So what Catholics get of the Bible are the parts the Church wants them to hear. Protestants read the Bible at home and pour over it. But certain parts have become more important to them if they are evangelical and their preachers emphasize those. Hell fire, personal redemption, homosexuality, and Jesus second coming.

R76 Yeah, I was surprised and incredulous when my Catholic friend told me Catholics don't read the Bible at all.

I've read Genesis and Revelation and various selections between them and I have never been to a church service. I'm just curious what's in there because, you know, it's the basis of society and culture.

She said she learned stories from the Bible in Sunday school but retained none of it. She didn't even know the story of Lot. She conflated him with Job.

I asked her how she could go through life at all but especially as a Christian and never have any curiosity to read any part of the Bible. That's when she told me Christians in her mind are gun-worshipping, warmongering Republicans who hate people and she is not one of them.

She said that priests read selections from the Bible and Catholics are told not to bother because only priests are educated about how to interpret Biblical passages, so they do a reading and then explain what it means. She said it had never once in her life occurred to her to open a Bible and read its pages before I introduced the idea by asking her about it. She's about 60.

She does, though, keep track of all sorts of holidays (?) or some kinds of holy Catholic days I've never heard of and she knows their significance. That's another cultish thing about it to me; she refers to various Catholic holy days often instead of actual dates and she always expects me to know when they are, what she is talking about. She doesn't consider that people who are not Catholic won't have any reference for their unique calendar, whereas Muslim people and Hindu in the US, I think, would assume most people don't have a reference point for their religious calendars and would just stick with using regular dates.

Oh and last thing I'll say re Catholicism so that the guy here who gets mad won't die of an aneurysm: Several Catholics I've known talk about and pray to saints and they *really* believe that if you lose your keys and pray to St. Anthony, he will drop your keys in your lap, or if you put your house on the market, putting an idol of St. Joseph in your yard will get you a good price.

I find that really interesting. Catholic people would deny it, but that's polytheism and magical thinking. It's basically the equivalent of casting a magic spell or a curse, and equivalent to praying to Venus for children or a big crop of olives this year. It certainly is not a monotheistic beliefs system; it just basically places the Big Guy/YHWH at the top of the hierarchy like Jupiter/Zeus/Odin/Amun-Ra, with the saints being lesser gods who can do magic to fulfill material orders. It's cute.

So yeah, to me, not much stranger than Scientology's Prosperity-Gospel type approach to life, just more common. And as we have seen in this thread, Catholic churchgoers behave a lot like Tom Cruise behaves when hearing any kind of criticism of his religion. It seems like they view it as an attack on their way of life and can't help reacting with rage and immediately try to bring the discussion to an abrupt end.

[quote][R76] Yeah, I was surprised and incredulous when my Catholic friend told me Catholics don't read the Bible at all.

If you ever listen to Julia Sweeney's "Letting Go of God" monolog (which I recommend, even if you aren't an agnostic/atheist), when she starts down the journey that eventually leads to her renouncing her faith, she gets involved in a Bible study class at her (diverse, progressive) church, lead by the priest. She makes a comment that in her experience, the Catholic Church's attitude towards the laity was "You just leave that to the professionals."

So, really reading the Bible for the first time in her life, she found herself horrified by a lot of the stuff that's actually in it.

R79 Thank you! What you wrote is exactly what happened to Leah Remini when she bought herself into an advanced level of "operating thetan" that allowed her to read the secret mythology of Scientology. She lost her faith almost immediately because she was like "THIS crazy bullshit is what my whole life is based on??! This can't be real!" I do think if Catholics read the Bible, a lot would have a similar reaction. Like, oh my God, my whole life is based on The Jetsons, dinosaur porn, Buffy fan fiction, Proud Boys philosophies and Donald Trump's demented ravings?!

That's why I got onto the tangent of "normal" Judeo-Christian beliefs and stories being compared here with "crazy" Scientology by a sci-fi writer.

It's impossible to explain to people whose lives have been immersed in church culture, but as an outsider who has read a pretty significant chunk of Old and New Testaments, it really is schizophrenic science fiction fantasy writing combined with ancient genealogical records and political laws from ancient tribal nations. That is what it is, just plainly. People who think Scientology mythos is uniquely crazy are blinded by their own faiths that are similarly crazy.

[quote][R76] Yeah, I was surprised and incredulous when my Catholic friend told me Catholics don't read the Bible at all.

It's funny that you mention that. If you look at election results at the precinct level in Los Angeles County, you see an ocean of blue and a tiny, deep red dot around the Celebrity Center.

R81 I don't get the connection. What does Catholics not reading the Bible have to do with Scientology celebs voting Republican?

NEWSFLASH: it's NOT the beliefs of scientology/scientologists that is the issue.... It's how they are run, how they treat their members, ex-members and anyone who dares to question and criticize them...

Nothing, just a comment that the clams are apparently willing to eat up Trump's paranoid rantings just as well as L Ron's.

I can't remember if it was in Going Clear or in Inside Scientology, but there's a story, that I think was about Paul Haggis, where the person got to the level where they first unveil the Xenu story, and he honestly thought it was a test, that if he said he believed it, they would think he was crazy.

Meanwhile, I've got an appointment to be examined on the oiliness table.

[quote]Wow this post was bait for the vile, foaming at the mouth anti-Catholic bigot trolls.

LITERALLY all of my valued friends are vile, foaming at the mouth anti-Catholic bigot trolls.

R67 Yep. I was raised in a charismatic nondenominational church and even as a kid, it never made any sense to me. I was also an avid reader who devoured encyclopedia volumes and knew how to Google my own answers. I used to annoy my Sunday school teachers by asking them challenging questions about the Bible. Because I couldn't get over how illogical the whole idea of it was and plus the Bible contradicted actual science. This was the 90s and 2000s, era of "cool Evangelical" WWJD pop culture bubble (Bibleman, Veggie Tales, purity rings, rap songs, etc). My mom watched TBN, 700 Club and all those scammers dutifully. I just couldn't stomach that God was all-loving yet was also violent, temperamental, petty and commanded genocide. And created mankind solely to worship him. You're right that Revelations was like an acid trip. Genesis and Exodus are just as ludicrous with talking snakes, talking burning bushes, splitting a sea in half to cross it, staffs turning into snakes, etc. How is magic evil yet it's pervasive in Abrahamic religions and you prophets that can conjure and curse? And Trinity makes absolutely no sense and it's ridiculous a concept and polytheistic at its core. The idea of original sin and Jesus having to die for our sins also makes no sense. Why would God send himself to be born to a virgin on Earth to save mankind by having himself killed? Judaism and Islam have the same historical and scientific inaccuracies and problematic, antiquated value system but their theologies makes more sense because they never strayed from monotheism and there's no concept of "original sin" and being saved "by faith alone."

It's completely hysterical how American Christians have the nerve to say Islam is more evil yet Christians committed so many acts of violence and used their religion to colonize and enslave millions. Western Christianity is merged with white supremacy and European empires were blessed by their churches to conquer lands and bring the "savages" to God.

Asians like Japanese, Koreans, Chinese and Vietnamese see Christianity and Islam as sorta magical cults due to their ritualistic nature. Having to attend a service weekly, constantly citing from a divine text, relying on a preacher to interpret the text, the belief of transforming water and bread into blood and flesh, constantly being fearful and judgmental and being opposed to any type of non-monotheistic worship.

Scientology bleeds just enough cash out of people to make them desperate.

It bleeds just enough secrets out of them through "auditing sessions" to get blackmail material - works best on celebrities.

It removes them from family, friends, the Internet, and the broader world that tells them it's a cult.

All in the hope that if one gives enough money over enough years, they can be shown L Ron's handwritten notebooks about how we're all just derived from aliens who jizzed in volcanoes a quadrillion years ago.

r88 and don't forget they've branched out to work with the Nation of Islam (No relation to islam)

[quote] It's completely hysterical how American Christians have the nerve to say Islam is more evil yet Christians committed so many acts of violence and used their religion to colonize and enslave millions.

Uhhh, so did Islam.....and they are STILL enslaving people today!

"Girls, girls, you're BOTH evil!"

[quote] The idea of original sin and Jesus having to die for our sins also makes no sense. Why would God send himself to be born to a virgin on Earth to save mankind by having himself killed?

Cosigned, R86. That's totally illogical.

All religions are stupid but Christianity is particularly stupid and makes absolutely no sense as a moral code.

WHAT I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND ABOUT CULT-OLOGY, I mean scientology and celebrities....

SERIOUSLY, what celebrity would be that fucking stupid, gullible and ridiculous to tell ANYONE including their "religion" anything that would ruin them, destroy them and their careers, when being a celebrity and fame is what they live for! And their first survival instinct is to keep their fame and success intact....Are/Were they that stupid to think "oh, it's a religion, it's my religion, they care about me, they would never harm me in anyway!" REALLY? REALLY?? Come on!....

I can't even fathom a travolta or a cruise sitting across from some "auditor" who is a stranger to them and allowing them to ask them personal intimate detailed questions about their entire life including their sex life and thinking this is all normal! Even as a nobody, I would be running out the door so fast dust would kick up the first time my "religion' asked me anything personal and writing it down in front of me! And keeping it in a file!!....

There's a degree of shunning among Mormons. We won't even talk about how Islam deals with apostates in some countries.