The whole 'Lord of Light' subplot in Game of Thrones

I think it was supposed to be ambiguous to the very end, to show how useless prophecies are and that anyone can see anything in them, depending on their perspective. I got the same sense from the books so far and if George ever finishes them, I'm certain this particular lesson for humanity will be spelled out even more before the end.

The whole thing really is quite anti-religion.

r1 there was a scene when a red priestess said non-believers will be burned by Daenerys' dragons by the thousands, which is what happened at the end of the series. So if anybody had a victory at the end, it was the Lord of Light.

Cheap and lazy plot device.

r2 But she gets killed by Jon, thus preventing her from potentially killing millions more. Sounds like Pyrrhic victory to me.

They dropped so many plots (and characters, which of course, they had to). I think the Lord of Light and Azor Ahai mythology will be more fully resolved in the books (if they’re even finished). I think we’ll get some kind of backstory for Melisandre.

But I agree with the poster above as to GRRM’s message as to prophecy.

They didn’t have GRRM to write the ending so it was crap.

The books will NEVER be finished.

We don't know if there was a "Lord of Light" or if any of the other gods on Game of Thrones had any reality. Melisandre was, obviously, deeply self-deceptive. She sometimes had powers, but we can't be certain of where they come from. It's a very convincing portrait of what "prophets" and "saints" must have been like.

HBO is showing the series again; one season per day since Saturday, July 16. I'm watching S5E6 right now on HBO2. If anyone is "working from home," the Season 7 starts at 8 am ET on HBO and at 11 am ET on HBO2.

Who was the character who could light a sword with his blood and kept being brought back to life? I thought he was the Lord of Light. Melisandre visited him in the cave.

OT, I'd forgotten how slimy Lord Baelish was. I feel like I need a shower after seeing him on screen!

I was mainly interested in the wolves and the dragons. The humans and others beings were secondary to me. The wolves in particular deserved a lot more screentime

WE thought the ending was fabulous.

R10, did you want a Direwolf, too? I couldn't watch the scenes where they were killed. I wish Ramsey Bolton could have been eaten by one.

In the books I'm pretty sure the Lord of Light is meant to be partially real. Or his priests have real power since Melisandre isn't the only red priest to resurrect someone - and Thoros is by no means a sorcerer so it's not a case where, like Melisandre, he might be passing off his existing abilities as miracles from his god.

The Old Gods certainly seem real if we take the whole Three-Eyed Crow as a legitimate story direction that Martin was heading in with the books. I prefer to believe they are since it lends a supernatural element to Melisandre's demands that the trees and sacred groves of the Old Gods get burned down. If the Old Gods really are watching everyone and everything through the trees, Melisandre's purge makes a lot more sense than simple religious zealotry and intolerance (though there's obviously heaps of that too).

Only, strangely enough, the Seven seem completely useless, which I find quite fascinating since they were adopted throughout Westeros despite the seemingly real power of the Old Gods. It seems they exist purely as an institution and a philosophy rather than a supernatural force, which might speak to the power of religion over the human mind as opposed to (even triumphing over) overt miracles.

The Many Faced God and the changing faces?

Nothing was ever explained. The actors took it seriously and that's why it watchable.

It was one of several things that were built up and then came to nothing. Why did the White Walkers occasionally create the unexplained symbols out of body parts? Who knows! I guess it was just “creepy” visual

R14. The Many Faced God isn't really a god. It's just Death. They gave it a flowery name but they're just death cultists/assassins with an aptitude for magic.

R15. The White Walkers are supposed to have their own god, the Great Other, references to which were entirely cut out of the show for some reason. I thought that's why they were building those body part structures but nothing ever came of it sadly.

Regarding the body part pinwheel seen in S1E1, I just saw another one in S8 E1. There was a similar drawing in the caves at Dragonstone. Danerys and Jon discussed it but I wasn’t really paying close attention. It has something to do with the First Men. I’m watching Season 8 right now on HBO 2.

I don't remember Melisandre wanting to burn down the Old gods trees etc.

But she was able to bring people back to life. That was pretty powerful. Though her predictions didn't always come true. And didn't she murder that king's daughter for naught?

I don't remember who Azor was.

Yeah the Seven did seem useless. In a way I think they were supposed to be their version of Christianity with the whole powerful church and rules etc. and pushing away the old religion for theirs.

And now my watch has ended. Finished watching S8. I still want a dragon! Can’t wait for House of Dragons.

R12 I wanted a PACK of direwolves. And three dragons. I hated any scenes where those creatures were killed

But I also hated seeing the remaining dragon killing all those people. Cersei should have just surrendered

Nothing was ever as touching as the Hodor scene.

That's about it. Red Wedding shock. Dragon Deux ex Machina saving. The big ending letdown.

R20, even though I knew it was coming, I still cried when the Night King killed Viserion and Euron Greyjoy killed Rhaegel. I was never able to tell which one was which. I found this on a website. Wish I'd known this when I watched the show. The only one I could remember is Drogon because he's the one Danerys rode,

"The Game of Thrones dragons are Drogon (black and red), Rhaegal (green and bronze), and Viserion (cream and gold). "

It was interesting that the only Stark who still had a DireWolf at the end, was Jon Snow. He found them and, IIRC, Robb said Jon could have the runt of the litter.

R9 Beric Dondarrion . He wasn’t the Lord of Light. After he died (the first time), Red Priest Thoros of Myr brought him back to life and after that Beric served the Lord of Light. He was resurrected six times for some purpose.

That purpose turned out to be that he sacrificed himself for Arya at the Battle of Winterfell. He saved her and she went on to kill the Night King, which destroyed all the wights, and ended that battle.

I thought he was going to have a greater purpose. Oh well.

How big is The Hound's cock? That's what I want to know.

God, this thread has unpleasantly reminded me of how bad this show got towards the end.

[quote]How big is The Hound's cock? That's what I want to know.

Not as big as MINE! And I ought to know.

R23. Beric's storyline is just as meandering in the books. Martin really needs to get his shit together.

Deus ex machina

Deus ex machina

r18, in the books, Melisandre burns down the Godswoods which are consecrated to the Religion of the Seven. That was never depicted in the show.

The approach to religions and spirituality is probably my favorite aspect of Game of Thrones. It validates them and also questions them and raises lots of reason for doubts.

Melisandre was not incompetent, but she was wrong or made a lot of wrong interpretations. She was overly confident in her visions but challenged to keep her faith. She was more faithful than she was compassionate, but she was compassionate and felt remorse. She went into a depression after her confidence in her visions failed her, but she remained faithful and resolute and in the end, she was right. The bottom line of her life is that she served her purpose, and it was her spiritual purpose.

Melisandre's visions proved to be legitimate. There's no way they were coincidence. But why was she so wrong, as well? Was the Lord of Light deceiving her for his own amusement? Was it to challenge her faith? Are his ways sophisticated beyond her understanding? Or was it a case of her getting one ultimate point but not all the complex workings that lead to that point? Or was it a case of the Lord of Light being only one god working in opposition to other gods' interests?

We don't know. And that is true to the mysteries of mysticism. Whether mystical and mythical beliefs have any basis in reality or not, there is really no way to prove or disprove. What is true is that different beliefs and even different visions are real to many people and they motivate real actions, both beneficent and atrocious, that affect us all. I don't have to believe in the Christian and Muslim gods to be affected by them because their followers do their bidding, whether or not they exist only in their minds.

Religions have real-world effects and charismatic religious leaders who act according to relevations change the world.

Jon Snow’s coming back to life was a completely wasted opportunity. He should have changed somehow—his behavior, his views.

But instead he was exactly the same Jon Snow

R32 Yeah, he was stunned at first because he encountered a void of nothingness. He was in a state of shock. If they *had* to pretend to kill him for a cliffhanger and bring him back to life as GoT's Jesus, then there should have been a radical transformation. He might have discovered a lust for life, realizing that there's nothing to gain or to lose by failing, or he could have become a religious zealot realizing he was revived solely to serve a purpose. Instead, it was moping and incestuous romance. I think the writers were in love with the idea of Jon Snow "knowing noothin," but there's no drama in a neutral, ignorant protagonist.

The Lord of Light's main goal was to get Jon Snow naked.

I agree with R31 in that the use of various religions in the story and all the talk of the Old Gods and the New isn't meant to end up meaning something in the plot. It's the actions of the believers that is the main focus. S5 of the show as all about the damaging principles of religions and cults in our history. From the High Sparrow's antics and his bootlicker squads to the House of Black and White and Arya's indoctrination into the Faceless Men, to the hypocrisy of the High Septon, and to how Melisandre influenced Stannis which results in his and his family's end, and even to the Night's Watch and their oaths and cultish mentality, the season fully exposed how dangerous the men and women who follow these gods have always been. As for the true magic of that world, I think it can be separate from the gods. The Children of the Forest aren't gods, yet they have some magic at their disposal, as seen by the Hammer of the Waters smashing the Arm of Dorne and flooding the Neck, and they created the Night King and the white walkers in the first place.

I think the Lord of Light is meant to be left up to interpretation, in what one chooses to believe, not a part of the story where we'll ever get a final answer. It's not meant to lead to a conclusion. As I don't believe in gods, I am prone to think it was some trick, these raisings of the dead. If one decides that the LOL brought back Jon to fight the "Great Other", then the goal remains about the epic fight of good vs evil, pitting the LoL as "good". But we know from the many sacrifices to him that this god is hardly good. Look what Mel did to Shireen. The heart trees of the weirwoods also had sacrifices made to them. Perhaps this is merely a human need and does not come from the gods at all. BUT, if the reason that Jon was brought back was so that he would kill Daenerys and stop her reign of a "new world" breaking the wheel while breaking/burning the millions of non-believers with fire and blood, then it becomes a much more interesting premise. What did the LoL want after all?

R18, as Mel herself had said, she didn't bring back anyone from death, she has no power. It was the LoL working through her. She then decides that it is Jon who is Azor Ahai, not Stannis, once he was obviously defeated. Azor Ahai was a figure in a prophecy who was meant to stop the Long Night by using the sword Lightbringer against the Great Other, which he tempered first with water but it shattered, then he tried a second time by thrusting it in a lion's heart, and it broke again, and so the third time he tempered the sword by shoving it in his wife's breast and through her heart. The sword was supposed to remain warm ever after with the soul of Nissa Nissa inside it. The prophecy itself sheds light on the idea that AA is not so good. But obviously, Jon stabbing Dany through the heart was lifted from the prophecy they never went into in the show.

I think the fact that Jon *doesn't* change into some darker version of himself is the point, R32.

The burning of Shireen was probably the most horrific thing the show did

[quote] The burning of Shireen was probably the most horrific thing the show did

Bigtime!

The span of the show going from the one of the greatest television shows of all time to the B movie disaster that it became has to one for the record books.

Still haven’t finished it, never will. Hate what I saw of the final two seasons. Shame on HBO for enabling the property’s downfall.