Swimming's governing body FINA votes to exclude male transwomen from elite women's competition

Just with the men's team? Hahahaha, Thomas is nowhere near the qualifying times. Funny how that works. Thomas as a man is nowhere near that but Thomas as a woman is right at the top....

Yeah, he won't be swimming in that competition then.

This 'open category' at competitions for swimmers whose gender identity is different than their birth sex feels like malicious compliance.

good.

Yeah. Good.

[quote] This 'open category' at competitions for swimmers whose gender identity is different than their birth sex feels like malicious compliance.

Why? This is the best solution for everyone.

R6 because the trans people will cry discrimination forever at it. The MtFs want to be able to swim in the women's team.

FINA shouldn't be promoting puberty blockers for kids or equating a boy taking puberty blockers with a normal girl's puberty (or a girl taking puberty blockers with a normal boy's puberty).

Good. These athletes need to complete against the males teams or against other MTFs.

About Goddam TIME!

Waaah!

This seems like a good compromise. As many of the specialists who they quote in OP's link said, this is about a level playing field (or swimming pool as the case may be). It does highlight one of the emerging trans issues, in that (at least here in the US) it is about to be a battlefield over treating and potentially transing young people, so they've (perhaps unwittingly) positioned themselves at the center of the debate.

Damn! I guess that means thousands of T's died today because of these policy changes. I'm sure the obituaries are all over Twitter and Tik-Tok.

Sounds like someone's finally had the guts to point out that the Empress is not only naked, but actually the Emperor.

Cycling and Swimming - over to you. Athletics!

[quote]Just with the men's team? Hahahaha, Thomas is nowhere near the qualifying times. Funny how that works. Thomas as a man is nowhere near that but Thomas as a woman is right at the top....

The women who lost their places in the competition to Thomas were told that it wasn't about the winning, but the taking part.

Now Thomas can swim her fastest against other male swimmers with that in mind. And because she's swimming as her true authentic self, she'll be able to swim so much faster.

But will this trickle down to the NCAA?

Transwomen should compete with Trans women. These organizations have been conned to be politically correct.

But isn't the whole point that Lia CRUSHES those nasty other cis-bitches into the dust? Er, I mean, into the water?

Do try and remember that Lia (or any other trans person) has been working within the rules the whole time. There’s a nasty bent to this thread that seems to be based on the idea that she was cheating or acting inappropriately - but she was playing by the rules of the governing body the whole time. I don’t know enough about how testosterone effects the body post transition to get into details but for some reason the individual trans athletes themselves seem to have gotten a lot of flack over this issue - when everyone’s problem seems to actually be with the governing bodies. Losers like rescue chick etc are gloating over this as a personal victory against Lia when the whole time they’re too stupid to understand that their beef was with the organizations that set the standards.

no one forced these cheating men to compete with women.

The only issue I have with the trans movement is allowing trans women into women sports.

I don't think Lia is cheating. I do think that Lia knows she has an advantage over biological women and just doesn't care. That might be worse than cheating.

Oh, PLEASE, r20. You're acting as if MTF athletes have not been frequently actively lobbying to compete against cis-women rather than against cis-men!

Don't piss on our legs and tell us it's raining. We didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

R20 - sit your stupid ass down and stop gunning for rescue chick. "I don't know enough about how testosterone affects the body" - again, shut the hell up. It's right there in front of your face.

You're trying to paint her as this naive transwoman who was just trying to make a go at swimming. But she PURPOSEFULLY threw races and had no problem taking the NCAA title away from another bio woman.

Just because there weren't enough rules in place to stop this doesn't make her innocent. You clown.

But of course r20 would go especially after rescue-chick, one of the few openly self-identified cis-women on the forum.

Laurel Hubbard, Emily Bridges and Lia Thomas know that by competing in women's sport and maintaining the physical advantage of being male, they are taking the space of a woman in the competition.

When Emily Bridges spoke about her "fellow female athletes" she is deluding herself that she is female. And when she spoke about the severe impact the hormones are having on her body and her ability to compete, she emphasised that she sees a weak male being on par with a strong female. Far from fighting the patriarchy she is enforcing it.

R26 rescue chick is transphobic. Trans people are a part of the LGBT community so idk why she would be welcome here tbh. Also this is generally a forum for gay men so she shouldn’t be using up so much air here.

R25 as I said I don’t know enough about the details to comment but again, Lia didn't break any rules, the anger directed against her and other trans athletes is misplaced. Also calm down lol you’re gonna give yourself a stroke.

R23 how is playing within the rules worse than cheating? You can’t be serious.

R21 you really should think about the content you post on a LGBT forum, it’s hateful. I think you should rethink your presence on this site tbqh. Maybe find a less nasty hobby?

I've blocked r28.

R28 doesn't know enough about the details to comment, yet goes ahead and comments. He says trans are part of the LGBT community then says that women don't belong on this board or should be heard.

DO YOU HEAR YOURSELF? God you're dumb. Anyone with a passing interest knows full well that fully developed males who 'transition' to women have a physical advantage in competition.

I pity you and your lack of education and reasoning skills.

Lol R30 yes trans people are a part of the LGBT community, straight women aren’t. Is that a difficult concept for you?

Why is everyone screaming today? Calm down with the ALL CAPS!1!!

I’m also not saying that women aren’t welcome on the board, but posting hateful anti LGBT messages isn’t appropriate, unwelcome imo. Also when I said I don’t know enough to comment - I was talking about physical advantage, and if you read (slowly this time 😉) you’ll see I didn’t make any comment on that.

How disappointing for Lia! That little lady worked her BALLS off to crush the competition. It's like no one cares about her achievement.

R31, who gives a shit about the artificial construct of the "LGBT community"? Trans are nothing to do with same-sex attracted people, unless they are attracted to their own sex - although the reason many of them call themselves trans is because they're gay and think that's wrong.

The only information available so far on Will "Lia" Thomas's sexuality is that he's attracted to women - and he shares a changing room with them.

R31, this is an anonymous board. Anyone can “identify” as anything. We can only judge people by the content of their posts. Rescue-chick’s opinions are not somehow more incorrect or less valuable because she says she is a woman.

R34 its anonymous? Wow great contribution.

I’m judging rescue chick on the content of their posts solely, which to me are unacceptable on a gay forum because 1) they’re boring and 2) they’re transphobic. As I said she should find another hobby.

The LGBT community that we considered ourselves a part of has transformed itself into something many of us don't want to be a part of. We don't want people who take advantage of other people, who deceive and lie and want children legally abused.

R36 you’re just repeating right wing talking points - you’ve lost. Some of you people are so easily convinced to hamstring yourselves by stupid NY post articles or whatever have you, it’s embarrassing / depressing.

Good. And now that someone has finally decided to have common sense, you won't be seeing many FB warriors saying that trans swimmers are the same as the sex they aspire to.

The warriors tend to want popularity and now that a decided majority is protesting trans women competing against real, I mean, biological women, they'll crawl back into the woodwork.

Biden is threatening to take away funding for the school lunch program if schools don't let boys in the girl's bathrooms and on sports for girls

The Democrats are determined to lose. They are self-destructive.

Of course we don't want them illegally abused either but when this very powerful men's (transwomen) lobby has brainwashed so many people the unthinkable becomes accepted.

Oh shut up r37. The trans are nothing to do with the gays and it's not "right wing" to say that biological men shouldn't be competing in women's sports or that lesbians don't have penises.

The British athlete Kelly Holmes officially came out as a lesbian today. She won double Olympic gold in Athens 2004 and is genuinely admired as a national treasure and sporting legend.

She won the 800m in 1:56.38 - the men's champion ran a time of 1:44.45.

She won the 1500m in 3:57.90 - then men's champion ran a time of 3:34.19.

Kelly Holmes has been denounced as a TERF because like Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Sharron Davies, Paula Radcliffe etc, she thinks women should have their own protected category.

And if you don't think women deserve their own category, why are we celebrating a woman who won her race 10 seconds slower than the fastest man, and the second race 20 seconds slower.

I promise, I have (and of course still do) supported gay and lesbian rights FAR more than any of the straight men in dresses you are welcoming here r35

If it has a dick, you must convict.

Chopchop boys. Then you can come play with the girls...but only if you chopchop before puberty.

R37 In this case you've lost and the only thing you can do is call other people right wingers just because they disagree with you.

R43 your behaviour on here is contradictory to that sorry.

Gay rights = lesbian rights = trans rights = LGBT rights, its a package deal, you can’t be for one and against the other in any rational sense. You and the rest of the trolls on here might make it seem like there’s a sizable anti trans movement within the gay community but thankfully anyone with eyes and ears can tell that’s not how it is in the real world. As I said get a new hobby. Out damned spot.

R45 Jesus I didn’t say you were a right winger (how could I know that?) I said you’re repeating right wing talking points. Standards are really slipping around here 😂

R46, no, it isn't a package deal. Movements change and transform all the time.

reality isn't your strong suit in several levels in your post at r46 is it?

🤣 I can do cute smiley faces too 😜😅🤣😉

[quote] Gay rights = lesbian rights = trans rights = LGBT rights, its a package deal, you can’t be for one and against the other in any rational sense.

I see the equivalence between gay and lesbian but could you please tell me how trans is likewise equivalent?

R46, GLAAD, like other gay rights groups, didn't even acknowledge transgenders in the naming of their organization.

You know what time it is r46? Time for you to GO DILATE!

[quote] 🤣 I can do cute smiley faces too 😜😅🤣😉

Something tells me you can only do them in text 😭

How many trans-men are trying to compete with cis-men in swimming competitions?

I still cringe when I recall Psaki simply saying "trans rights are human rights" and nothing else in response to a question about a lawsuit regarding trans people in sports during the first week of Biden's presidency. Just goes to show how hollow slogans like those are when you need to deal with practical, everyday considerations involving actual people, rather than an abstract minority.

American national associations might be a lost cause, but international associations will hold. For now. I just hope the Biden admin doesn't expend valuable diplomatic cache on this nonsense and starts pressuring these associations.

An open category is the best possible solution for the time being. If countries want to withdraw from international competitions because they find that arrangement transphobic, then that's their call. But their sporting communities will suffer for a generation if they do so.

[Quote]so easily convinced

Says the brainwashed doublethinker.

Now that trans swimmers and their supporters have been dealt this loss, let's see them emulate womens' tendency to be accommodating and give in graciously.

The transtapo loons will never answer these questions:

1. How is trans related to being gay?

2. What is the definition of 'woman'?

3. Why is transgendered acceptable but transracial, transage, transspecies not acceptable?

They can't answer these questions.

A twelve year old FTM swimmer would have a strong advantage over bio males of the same age.

GOOD

Sure, R58, sure.

R54 TRA’s bring up Schuyler Bailar swimming for Harvard as male after swimming as female. What they and Bailar leave out was that Bailar swam mostly exhibition (meaning the times didn’t count toward a teams overall score) because his times as a man were awful and he finished dead last at just about every event he swam in.

Another F2M athlete that’s brought up is Chris Mosier who “won” a national mens title in race walking for his age group. What Mosier leaves out is that he was the only entrant in the competition and his times overall sucked and men in the 60 and 70 age categories as well as women who were 15-20 years older than him.

R54, oddly, trans men seem to prefer competing with women!

I think that is also unfair because I suspect that some of them are taking some level of testosterone. I remember the trans male that raced against Lia Thomas didn't have to test for hormones. She was just on the "honor system".

But after a reading a lot of trans stories, I realize that trans people don't only lie about whether they have had surgery or not. Some lie and say they are intersex. Others lie about when they started hormones especially kids and teenagers.

There was one boy who took female hormones that were illegally prescribed to his mom to get around age laws. I also think Josie Totah was already taking female hormones when he was still playing male roles.

Fantastic news.

We're reached a turning point.

Team Rescue Chick.

R62 Quinn, the non-binary/transgender soccer player from Canada competed with her biological sex and takes no testosterone. If she did she would not be allowed to compete with the ladies team and would have no chance at making the mens team.

Lia has always known that swimming in the same events with bio women is grossly unfair, but Lia has never cared. That is unsportsmanlike, and it doesn’t matter if governing bodies have allowed her to do it.

Lia Thomas by being an entitled American has made an international sports body introduce a new ruling. Go Lia!

I love Rescue Chick. Sometimes I dont agree with her,but mostly I do. Ive known too many transvestites to count,and even they would tell you they are men. Or women if they are drag kings. I dont know when this became such a political issue,but I do know the negative effects of it will touch all of us in the gay community.

The best news so far this year. Reason and fairness won. At the most basic level these people are not women.

We can't always have everything we want.

There was never even an "LGBT movement", r48. There was the lesbian and gay community, which somehow, suddenly colonised us.

The people who are arguing against the fina decision are either stupid or contrariant shit stirrers. I say stupid.

We were too nice.

We let them come to our events, we included them when they weren't wanted, and this is how they repay us.

R55, lol, just which countries would ever withdraw from international sports competitions because men aren't permitted to compete as women? I think you'll find more countries would have withdrawn if transwomen, i.e. men, were forced into women's sports.

[quote]non-binary/transgender

Even by their own crazy definitions, this is not possible.

Good decision. Male puberty confers a hell of an advantage that can't be undone with some hormones later on--you still get the larger skeleton, broader shoulders, etc. By focusing on puberty, you also don't target the few honest-to-god intersex people out there. It also gives guidelines to a national/college organizations. Hope other sports follow suit.

Lia Thomas is an entitled, selfish asshole.

R70 should read: There was never even an "LGBT movement", [R48]. There was the lesbian and gay community, and somehow, suddenly the trans colonised us.

[quote]I still cringe when I recall Psaki simply saying "trans rights are human rights" and nothing else in response to a question about a lawsuit regarding trans people in sports during the first week of Biden's presidency. Just goes to show how hollow slogans like those are when you need to deal with practical, everyday considerations involving actual people, rather than an abstract minority.

10 specific issues that need a more detailed response than "trans rights are human rights"

1. Male prisoners being transferred to women's prisons and trans men with functioning reproductive systems being sent to men's prisons

2. The recording of crimes, in particular violent and sexual crimes, by male offenders who identify as women.

3. Males competing in women's sports

4. Inclusive language in healthcare and the impact removing the words women and men have from public health campaigns

5. The rights of employees to limit their services to single sex, i.e. the Yaniv question

6. The medical treatment of children and establishing a patient pathway that reviews their mental capacity and understanding to make decisions on their sexual function and fertility

7. What constitutes a hate crime - can misgendering someone result in being arrested and charged with an offence, or being sacked from a job

8. How to non binary people fit in with sex segregated services - can a non binary male person insist on being sent to a women's prison or being strip searched by a female police officer

9. If single sex spaces are replaced by the concept of single gender services, and self ID is absolute, what happens to indecent exposure laws

10. Should birth certificates record a baby's sex?

Hmm, am I feeling the wind changing? The crazies Ezra Miller, the video of the Tranny dancing with her jiggling tits in the face of the kid cringing on granny's lap, among many others are doing for us what we could not do. Point out the Emperor's New Clothes Scenario.

Somebody better Fed Ex.the script change to Our Lady of the Bike, St, Biden, before he starves school children if their school boards don't back Trans agendas.

I think the real change started with the Dave Chappelle thing.

He endured a lot of backlash but in the end nothing happened to him and he became even more popular.

The two transgenders at Netflix who complained about him were pushed out of the company.

[quote] I think the real change started with the Dave Chappelle thing.

No, a man doesn’t get to be given credit for this.

Lots of female journalists and women were being shouted down for talking about it. JK Rowling was the highest profile woman and became the main heretic. She held firm, she challenged the with humour and authority and science. She was the witch they couldn’t burn.

And funny as all hell, Ricky Gervais. But the real heroine is the much vilified, but totally brave J.K. Rowling. She stayed the course, even when those vipers Radcliffe(should RATcliffe), Watson attacked her. All bow down to our gal JK.

This was the correct decision by FINA, one I knew was coming (from sports bodies in general, not FINA in particular) and one that will continue. It is obviously unfair to allow people who have gone through male puberty to compete against people who have not, when male puberty confers obvious enormous advantages. There will be more coming from other sports' governing bodies and we can look forward to the day, which will be soon, when this is no longer an issue.

XX and XY are different. A transwoman is not XX. A transman is not XY. I have only ever seen people who believe otherwise on Twitter. Never irl. I am, however, perfectly happy to treat transwomen as women in social contexts and the same for transmen. It costs me nothing to do this. Trans people are people, and they deserve the same base level of respect and decency as I would give anyone.

That said, I agree with R20 and all their subsequent posts, including how "embarrassing and depressing" characters like Rescue Chick are. There are a LOT of transtrolls on DL at the moment, just as there will be for whatever the next Moral Panic is. There are also, and this is the depressing part, a number of named posters who have clearly bought this as an Important Issue That We Must Morally Panic About hook, line and sinker. You've been had, RC. You probably weren't a good person to begin with (and your admission to spending time at Kiwi Farms confirms it) but you've allowed genuinely bad and ill-intentioned people to co-opt your thoughts and values to their own negative ends. The "embarrassing" part is the loving the upvotes and the support in a thread like this. What a fucking coward you - and people like you - are.

Hopefully this means it's the end of the ridiculous, out-of-control fratboy prank, and Thomas can now fade into obscurity.

Ist it OVER for Liam Thomas?

R82, in other words, you're a misogynist. One of the issues I have with the current version of the trans movement is the overt misogyny--the denial that biological women face particular issues and should have some protections as a result. One of the weird regressive aspects of current trans activism is that attempt to erase the meaning of the word "woman" as it's been used for centuries.

Of course, lesbians, who certainly do fall under the LGBT category, have spearheaded the movement to protect women's sports and faced a hell of a lot of abuse because of it.

Here's to you, Martina N. for fighting the good fight!

R7, Duh. That is the basic premise that we all know.

It is what has just been ruled on.

R80, sorry, doesn't matter that he is a man. Not to say that women weren't fighting it.

But it was his incident that finally did the first real damage to the trans movement.

The liberal media tried to cancel him FOR WEEKS but they couldn't because he's too well liked and has been around too long. He generated a firestorm across the mainstream media which they couldn't contain, control, downplay or just plain ignore like they did with stories involving women like JK Rowling and Martina Navratilova.

R20, You assume Thomas has been 100% truthful about "their" "feelings."

so, r82, while I am correct I should sit my ass down and be quiet, not worry my pretty little head? there is a word for that.

And, R80, based on your spelling, I'm guessing you are from the UK or outside the U.S.

So, if you say that JK Rowling or whoever deserves credit for the critical death blow to transgenderism in the UK then that is fine.

But in the U.S., Dave Chappelle will go down as a central figure in snuffing out transgenderism.

Lia' s failed(faked) suicide attempt in 3,2,1.

We’ll work this out. In the meantime let’s not give in to right wing generated trans panic. Just take people individually for who they are for fuck’s sake. And encourage young people to enjoy exercise and sports so we don’t have another generation of hapless eating machines.

R57, Moreover, somehow defining "a man" doesn't seem to be a problem.

Why? Because FtMs aren't surpassing, and thus disempowering, men in major categories.

R92..Trans apologist, subtle, but we still see you!

Lia will be fine.

I am waiting for the local trans in my area to post that a transwoman prostitute in Brazil died because of the Fina Swimming decision--or some such nonsense.

They (plural) are already trying to get Pride cancelled in my city because it doesn't "center" black trans sex workers.

[quote] Ist it OVER for Liam Thomas?

Thems can't swim in the Olympics now.

[Quote] you’re just repeating right wing talking points - you’ve lost.

What with this decision, Hillary admonishing the Democrats, more detransitioners speaking out, and an observable spike in gay men pushing back, I'd say we're winning. Sanity will prevail.

When it comes to track events, attitudes will change. Usain in a frock v the best women.

Peak Trans Reached. Finally, the tranny shit is over.

100!

R32, "How disappointing for Lia! That little lady worked her BALLS off to crush the competition. It's like no one cares about her achievement." HAHAHAHAHA!

R42, "And if you don't think women deserve their own category, why are we celebrating a woman who won her race 10 seconds slower than the fastest man, and the second race 20 seconds slower." Bingo.

R77, agreed 100%.

10 specific issues that need a more detailed response than "trans rights are human rights"

1. Male prisoners being transferred to women's prisons and trans men with functioning reproductive systems being sent to men's prisons

2. The recording of crimes, in particular violent and sexual crimes, by male offenders who identify as women.

3. Males competing in women's sports

4. Inclusive language in healthcare and the impact removing the words women and men have from public health campaigns

5. The rights of employees to limit their services to single sex, i.e. the Yaniv question

6. The medical treatment of children and establishing a patient pathway that reviews their mental capacity and understanding to make decisions on their sexual function and fertility

7. What constitutes a hate crime - can misgendering someone result in being arrested and charged with an offence, or being sacked from a job

8. How to non binary people fit in with sex segregated services - can a non binary male person insist on being sent to a women's prison or being strip searched by a female police officer

9. If single sex spaces are replaced by the concept of single gender services, and self ID is absolute, what happens to indecent exposure laws

10. Should birth certificates record a baby's sex?

It's a difficult one to be sure...to be sure.

How does the 4 11' little Caucasian girl compete on a football team against the 5 9' Samoan girl of the same age?

The imbalances are everywhere beyond just gender.

Great news!

It's about time.

Well, that explains why the Samoans are such a force in women's football, R102!

R101 Dems need to listen to this!!!!!! They won't but they need to.

Haha Trannies aren't transing now! One big battle won in the war!

Drop the T!

And I just got a 30 day ban on my coutry's reddit sub for pointing out facts because facts are transphobic .

Indonesia has the shortest women in the world (on average, according to stats).

And those girls five "taller" countries at the Asian Women's Cup.

Because, you know, they're all chics.

You go girls!

Shout out to Mr. Lia Thomas. Your over the top arrogance helped to make this happen.

[quote] I am, however, perfectly happy to treat transwomen as women in social contexts and the same for transmen.

Wasn’t this how it was till about 2010? Up until then it seemed like a trans person was someone known only [italic]socially[/italic] as the opposite sex.

r108 The whole of Reddit is lost, don't even bother. Their favourite sport is shitting on gay guys for not wanting to fuck pussy on the hookup apps, all the while they strangely don't pester straight guys into liking dick. Because of course it's easier to gang up on a minority.

It was so much gayer a decade ago, but now all the gay subs have been taken over by trans mods and trans content. The last proper gay sub left standing, askgaybros, is under so much pressure, it won't last much longer either.

[quote] How does the 4 11' little Caucasian girl compete on a football team against the 5 9' Samoan girl of the same age? The imbalances are everywhere beyond just gender.

Except that height isn't a factor used to differentiate competition in football. They wouldn't compete against each other in boxing, where weight is a deciding factor.

R108, I got banned from another message board for pointing out how hateful and homophobic the trans community is, among other things. I linked to the Woke Homophobia and Transcel Rage page, which is nothing but tweets from trans people about all the ways that us gays "deserve" to be hate-crimed, just because we're openly gay. I also mentioned how the exclusionary, ethnocentric, plagiarized, reductive monstrosity is NOT the Pride flag. I also linked to terfisaslur.com, so others can read about all the ways trans people would love to rape, abuse, murder all women, again simply for existing.

Apparently me doing so falls under hate speech, so banned forever.

Would a couple of billion tune in to watch The Trans Olympic Games in 2028?

Kaitlin Jenner could light a cigarette and then the Cauldron.

[quote]You and the rest of the trolls on here might make it seem like there’s a sizable anti trans movement within the gay community but thankfully anyone with eyes and ears can tell that’s not how it is in the real world. As I said get a new hobby. Out damned spot.

Recent polling strongly disagrees with you, especially when it comes to sports.

“Lia” is a fetishistic pervert like most trans women. I wanted to smug his ugly smug face when he did that interview with Juju Chang. Also he went to the rich kids school here in town so he is a child of privilege like almost all visible trans and TRAs are.

*punch his face

This is good news for women's rights. The Modern Trans movement is not a movement representing the rights of a minority group, far from it. Its main function is to destabilize women and gay rights. No person in their right mind thinks Thomas was competing fairly.

Since they is one individual now, what is the new old fashioned they?

Theys.

If it talks like a duck, walks like a duck...

Damn! I wanted to show my girldick and ladyballs off to Katie Ledecky!

If course they did this now that Lia is graduated . Should have decided this a long time ago before this man took a chance away from a girl to be a winner!! Asshole!!

Isn't it time for all sports to just stop referring to "men's" events and "women's" events? Those monikers were developed in an earlier/simpler time when gender rules were strict. Now, with a more fluid definition of the terms, couldn't everyone still compete if the competitions were split into "XX" and "XY" groupings and you entered based on your chromosomal types? Then it wouldn't matter how anyone self-identified...more power to them...and everyone would fit in one of the two groupings. There would be both "men" and "women" in both groupings as those words now represent something different than they originally did.

Nah, sane people are clear on who men and women are. Stop the stupidity

R125 Because it's not as simple as being 'XY' or 'XX'. Seriously. They have tried that before and it didn't work.

^ I think it should be based on what planet you think are from. Or what race you might like to be, or what animal or species or comic book character. I mean its all about fluidity, diversity, openness, safeness, isn't it?

XX is female/woman.

XY is male/man.

We all know both when we see them and have for the entire history of the human species.

The end.

^^ Imagine the DL swim team ^^

and before people chime in with intersex, that doesn't mean indeterminate sex, it means an abnormality. They're still either male or female.

[quote] The only issue I have with the trans movement is allowing trans women into women sports.

Then you are a TERF! You can’t just pick and choose what you support. That’s like saying I support gay rights except for their right to marriage. Take all of us, not part of us.

No, they really did try the XY/XX testing and it DIDN'T WORK. Chromosome testing was introduced by the International Olympic Committee during the 1968 Summer Olympics. This tested for the Y-chromosome, and was designed to identify males potentially disguised as females. This method of testing was later abolished, as it was shown to be inconclusive in identifying maleness.

r132 Nah, this is different and people are finally waking up to the reality that this isn't as simple as gay or interracial marriage where you literally just change marriage certificate forms and that's it, society goes on with not a single person harmed in any way.

Trans activists will also need to wake up to the fact that compromises will have to be made in the end . You're pretty much toothless outside the US bubble, so I'm sure today's news is a rude awakening.

R132 I will take 'none of you mental fucks', for the rest of eternity.'

Common sense rarely seems to triumph these days. I agree with the ruling 100%.

The whole "you're 100% with us or 100% against us" will just accelerate their downfall. Nobody likes being called a bigot for believing in biology. People are just going to get sick of it.

And no sane person likes seeing children abused & subjected to Dr. Mengele devotees experiments just to line their pocketbooks & their egos.,

R138, you honestly believe that testing done in 1968 is the definitive scientific answer?! LOLOLOLOLOLOL. I'm sure they now have readily available testing that can differentiate XX from XY. It really shouldn't be that difficult. And it would have no effect on how people choose to "identify."

Finally I read something that makes some fucking sense. Fuck that dude anyway. But the creepy party of the new policy is saying that they'd take someone who transitioned before puberty. If that isn't child abuse I don't know what is.

R139 There, are still only two sexes.

R132 Go fuck yourself and your rules. Guess what? You don't get to make the rules. But you will have have to live with them. So you may as well sit down and shut up, because ain't nobody listening anymore.

[quote] [R139] There, are still only two sexes.

The fuck there is! What the hell are you even talking about? It’s 2023 for fuck’s sake. Get with the times, gramps.

That clip at R122 was hilarious. Lia sounds and looks like a man, but supposedly “she” has already transitioned?

R141, I'm not saying that there are more than two scientific, biological sexes: there are people who are XX and people who are XY. How people FEEL in their heads is up to them and may not match their chromosomes.

R143 Name the other sexes. Genetic mutations are rare, and have still never created another sex.

R145 Although I may feel you are not talking shit, and lying, you are indeed, talking shit, AND lying.

I had a hard time to trying to understand this new type of trans who say they've transitioned but still look and sound like their original gender. Or they combine gender characters from both genders. Like a trans man will have tits and a beard. I thought if you wanted to be a woman you got tits and tried to look like a woman, but apparently that is no longer required. Someone said there is term for it, but I can't remember what it is.

[quote]Someone said there is term for it, but I can't remember what it is.

"Narcissistic fucktardism" is the term, i believe.

Explain, R147. What am I lying about? Who am I to tell other people what they feel? Do you believe that there are more combinations than XX and XY?

Would it have killed Lia to put on a little lipstick? maybe some mascara ? Would it ? She can talk the talk but not walk the walk .

Jesus, people, it isn't as simple as XY or XX. It would be nice and neat if it were but in reality it doesn't work like that.

Biologically, it IS that simple. Psychologically, it isn't.

It was Thomas' interviews more than everything else (and there were a LOT of things on the list) that made and still make me believe that this was brainstormed by a bored fratboy, as I noted above, and no one put a stop to it before it got to this ridiculous level. This person doesn't pass by sight or sound at all, and prattles off the typical talking points as if they were reading from a script. And with that voice, we're expected to believe that Thomas has been on estrogen for 3 or 4 years?

But swimming (and other sports) are not a psychological competition.

R153 Wrong, biologically it isn't that simple. Nothing to do with psychology.

It probably is a bit more complicated than XX/XY. But the fact is that this shorthand works for 99.999% of humans (including trans humans!). The idea that trans are some distinct other sex is complete nonsense and a distraction. The vast vast vast vast vast majority of them are simple XX/XY.

Note how no sports governing body is saying that they'll test for XX or XY as a way to put people in the men's or women's team? Instead they talk about testosterone, hormones and stuff like that. That's because biologically the XX/XY thing doesn't work in reality to distinguish between men and women.

I liken folks like R156 to Trumpers. Its the same cognitive dissonance . And Like Trumpers,I ignore them.

R156, you have the persuasive skills of a MAGAt. If "it isn't that simple" explain why it isn't. I realize there are a handful of XXY people. Fine, they get to choose for themselves. Everyone else is either XX or XY, period, as R157 states.

R150 R152 What do you not get? Because a man says, 'I feel like a woman', he is....that makes no sense. 'I feel like a flamingo'...respect my identity, Kaa KAAAW.

R158 That makes no sense, as well.

R161 Then why don't sports governing bodies test for XX/XY? Believe me, it's a huge headache for them to decide what is a man or a woman and they would love it to be as simple as something like that.

Vindication for governors of states who showed common sense.

R102, Not the point, and you know it. SDASTFU.

R162, they can. The test used back in the 1960s has long since been discontinued, there is a new one now.

R165 Yes, they can test for it but they DON'T use it as a way to say 'you're male, you're female' because it doesn't work for that. Indeed, FINA hasn't used it as their criteria.

One of the reasons sex testing on athletes is fraught is that it is done only on female athletes since, for obvious reasons, there is never an issue of women trying to compete as male athletes. People have protested the testing as sexist for that reason.

So thrilled. Hate this bullshit to begin with, but Lia Thomas, whose interviews I have seen, is a really shady, evasive cunt. Fuck her. Oh, and she insists on waving her dick around in the women’s changing room.

[quote] How does the 4 11' little Caucasian girl compete on a football team against the 5 9' Samoan girl of the same age? The imbalances are everywhere beyond just gender.

Football (soccer) is known for variation of physical types in teams because players take on different positions in the game.

Goalkeepers tend to be the tallest on the pitch because long limbs are an advantage. Defenders and central midfielders tend to be taller and bulkier whereas strikers and wingers tend to be shorter because speed is required in those positions.

But none of that is set in stone and individual skill and link ups with other players is a big factor in whether someone will get picked. To make up one of a team of 11 players.

Simone Biles is one of the greatest athletes in history. Her physique suits gymnastics. She’d never have made it as a cyclist, a rower or a tennis player because she’s too short. Diving yes, Serena and Venus could have been successful track and field athletes, swimmers or rowers but they’re too tall to have been gymnasts.

But the question is not about gender it is about sex. Female women are female women. They’re not shorter, weaker, lighter men and deserve their own sporting categories with equal prize money and access to events.

R166, there are two groups of people that constitute an exception to XX being female and XY being male. There are XXs born with penises due to a rare gene mutation. There are XYs born with vaginas, who have complete androgen insensitivity. Their birth certificates are labeled based off their genitalia, not their chromosomes. So that wouldn’t preclude classifying people XX or XY in general since it’s a tiny group but they would need to articulate that there is an exception to the rule.

I'm 66 so I'm aware maybe I just can't understand.

But I sincerely hope they continue to have sports for people born with XX chromosomes and that those born with XY are not allowed in competitions with the XX people.

Guess I'm horribly misogynistic but to me, it's like that Monty Python sketch where an adult soccer team plays a team of 8 year olds - and the adults are knocking the kids down, kicking them, giving great big cheers when the score gets absolutely ridiculous, 100 to nothing -- and they are thrilled with themselves for their great victory, and the little kids are all writhing on the ground.

XX can't compete with XY in almost every sport. I think one exception might be extreme distance races, like 100 miles or something. Women who are extremely well trained might can hold up better in the long run (I'm assuming speed doesn't matter - it's who can keep on going). Not even sure about that but I remember reading about it years ago and wondering what the biological advantage was - more fat vs muscle (for fuel) yet still fit and not overweight - oh I don't know, just a guess.

Another analogy I think of is deciding disabled people should not get their own Olympics but wheelchair athletes should have to compete with the NBA.

One of my fave feminists who died in her 30s of cancer, Magdalen Berns - like Germaine Greer - she did lots of videos explaining that men will never be women - and the erasure of born-womanhood (XX genes) by transexuals should be a major feminist issue.

Yes I know there are XXY's etc. Hell, let them compete wherever they want - I'm happy enough to simply see XY's kept out of XX's sports. There are so few others they don't matter and likely don't threaten the existence of women's sports (and their other deserved exclusive realms - imho)

This is not an “LGBT forum”, you duplicitous piece of excrement at R20. Please go get murdered. It’s the least you can do.

Whoops. That was for R28. Though it’s likely the same delusional tranny troll anyway.

Datalounge is a gay forum.

“Gay celebrity gossip, gay politics, gay news, and pointless butchery”

So get the fuck out of here.

There are more babies born with an extra finger or toe than there are that have a intersex condition. Intersex is a blanket terms of conditions and they are sex specific.

Some babies are born with part of a leg missing. Because of that abnormality we don’t say humans aren’t bipedal.

The swimmers have rejected the cheaters!

What will Joe Biden do now?

Lose.

My god, I've never voted for a Republican in my life - and never will - but sometimes I'm just astonished at how lost we Dems are as a party. And dammit, I want Al Franken back.

Why can't he just run? All he did were some fucking comedy sketches that were a bit sexist and who the fuck didn't in the 70s or 80s - I mean look at what Trump did, grabbing any nearby pussy he could get his hands on, and still the crowds cheer him on.

GOOD!

[quote] I want Al Franken back.

Franken was the Dem's Jew scapegoat. A politically expedient sacrifice on the altar of political purity.

r178, No he had like 12 accusers. He had to step down or else the democrats couldn’t claim a moral high ground when republicans are accused of sexual abuse.

[quote] He had to step down or else the democrats couldn’t claim a moral high ground when republicans are accused of sexual abuse.

Yeah that would do it.

Less than two hours before he was to debate Hillary Clinton Sunday night, Donald Trump tried to wrest control of the political conversation and shove it toward her husband by live streaming an appearance with three women who have in the past accused former President Bill Clinton of inappropriate sexual behavior.

Trump’s panel included Kathleen Willey, Juanita Broaddrick, Paula Jones and another woman, Kathy Shelton, whose rapist was defended by Hillary Clinton as a young lawyer. That man was convicted of a lesser charge and served 10 months in jail.

All four women attended the presidential debate in St. Louis, as is Bill Clinton.

Fuck Clinton in this thread. Fuck straw manning this thread. This is about men competing against other men, not women.

[quote] [R156], you have the persuasive skills of a MAGAt. If "it isn't that simple" explain why it isn't.

I shouldn’t have to explain shit to you. I am so exhausted having to explains things over and over again. It👏🏼Is👏🏼NOT👏🏼MY👏🏼Job👏🏼To👏🏼Educate👏🏼You👏🏼!

[quote] The only information available so far on Will "Lia" Thomas's sexuality is that he's attracted to women - and he shares a changing room with them.

And… ? So what? You fags are attracted to straight men and share a locker room with them. Should they be afraid of you too? Do better.

Finally something sane on this issue.

R180 Bill looks guilty as fuck! poor Chelsea

R183, do better? Seriously, that is your great advice? Do better? Fuck off.

Has there ever been a more useless, worthless, ineffective piece of "advice" than "do better"? Those words don't mean shit, they're empty, hollow and meaningless, a way for smug assholes to feel superior, like they have actually contributed something meaningful to the discussion. A worthless piece of "advice" from a worthless person.

R82, even Dave Chapelle says he's Team Rowling, i.e. she inspired him to talk out against the trans lunacy.

Sorry, I meant R87, even Dave Chapelle says he's Team Rowling, i.e. she inspired him to talk out against the trans lunacy.

[quote]That's because biologically the XX/XY thing doesn't work in reality to distinguish between men and women.

Are you idiots for real? Is this really your new talking point?

[quote]There are more babies born with an extra finger or toe than there are that have a intersex condition.

And you motherfuckers better start redesigning ALL the gloves and ALL the shoes right the fuck now!!!! What? You only see five fingers and five toes on me? Well, fuck you. I identify as having six fingers and seven toes ON BOTH HANDS AND FEET! You are all EFTERMFs (extra finger & toe exclusionary radical mother fuckers!) if you don't believe in my extra fingers and toes!!1!!1!

This interview with cyclist Miss Emily Bridges, the current British junior men's record holder over 25 miles, was aired a couple of weeks ago.

It was promoted as a "isn't she brave" interview, asking soft questions that portray Emily as a victim, and refusing to acknowledge that Emily is male and the women she wants to compete with and against are female. The interviewer kept saying "some people say" as if biologists and scientists are just random people on Twitter and not experts in their field.

It backfired massively, with people who hate Boris Johnson defending him for making sensible comments about sports.

Apparently more trans people will drown as a result of this 'horrific' policy. 🙄

Dr. Johanna Mellis

What a horrific policy. I continue to be embarrassed to have been a former D1 swimmer and coach. Our community seeks any reason to exclude people and discourage them from learning how to swim, leading to higher drowning rates

Hahahaha, R191. I can't believe they really went there. Not letting men compete against women is also going to kill the Ts? Has someone looked into the propensity of Ts to randomly just die of things?

h, FFS r189, take a genetics course or a tranquilizer or both. I'm on FINA's side on this decision, but there are some rare medical conditions where the chromosomes do not determine sex in a meaningful way. XY people with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome have bodies that do not respond to testosterone. So their development is female despite their genetic XY status. They generally have the appearance of female external genitalia at birth and they cannot go through male puberty because their cells don't respond to testosterone. I have no problems withs these genetically male people being considered women both socially and in sporting competitions.

Another group of people who would fall outside the biological sex norms is people with 46 XX/XY chimerism. This is a condition that results from two embryos fuse in utero and the resulting person's genetic makeup can be a combination of male and female, with some cells having XX and some cells having XY.. i don't knww what the sports governance bodies do with chimeras now, but they do exist.

And, R193, some people are born with their half formed twin stuck to the side of their heads. It's called a birth defect. You idiots have to be pulling our legs at this point.

R131, that is so ridiculous. What was rare ten years ago is now socially accepted today. Shouldn’t the suicide rate be going down?

William Thomas is a man. Men should not compete in women's sports.

No, she is a woman, a lovely ballsy lesbian woman who is at the top of her game and don’t you forget it.

Lia Thomas will not be swimming in the Olympic men’s team as he is not good enough - hence his desire to swim against women. Lia Thomas is a cheat.

They just need to stop discriminating between male and female athletes. Let men and women compete against each other. Include transgendered athletes. Why should women have their own competitions?

R193 And yet, they still are, and still live as men or women. Cause there are still only two sexes.

[quote] Why should women have their own competitions?

R199 Because women competing against men is discrimination. Which is why women and men compete seperately. But then, you knew that.

[quote] No, she is a woman

R197 William Thomas's chromosomes, DNA and skeletal frame say he is a man and that you are wrong.

[quote] When Emily Bridges spoke about her "[bold]fellow female[/bold] athletes" she is [bold]deluding herself that she is female[/bold]

r27 You are also deluding yourself when you keep calling *Zach* Bridges "she/her/herself". Zach is not deluding himself. Just like William Thomas, Gavin Hubbard, so many other these male trannies in women's sports and even outside of sports like Richard Levine, etc. They are sick heterosexual cheat fucks, also male losers who could not compete or excel in the men's categories.

But they're just *using* what's available, made possible for them by the so-called respectable mainstream head bodies - these are the much sicker ones. Some mainstream media already called these male athletes "XY females", laying justification ground for their trans cult agenda, last year for Tokyo Olympics for their dear tranny Gavin Hubbard. Official twitter account @WhiteHouse or @Potus or both have kept calling XY males like Richard Levine "female" multiple times, just like the mainstream media.

What if a FTM wants to compete against the men?

[quote][R27] You are also deluding yourself when you keep calling *Zach* Bridges "she/her/herself". Zach is not deluding himself. Just like William Thomas, Gavin Hubbard, so many other these male trannies in women's sports and even outside of sports like Richard Levine, etc. They are sick heterosexual cheat fucks, also male losers who could not compete or excel in the men's categories.

Her name is Emily Bridges, Miss Bridges if you're nasty. She is a trans woman, which means she is male, and why she still holds a record in the junior men's competition.

I agree that it's ridiculous to describe Hubbard, Thomas and Bridges and Dr Rachel Levine as female. It's one of the reasons I object to the "trans women are women" chant. Trans women are trans women. The 4 trans women in discussion have at least made a commitment to medical transition unlike a lot of males.

[quote] Trans women are trans women.

They are not women. They are men in dresses. And calling them someting other than what they are is erroneous and provides support and encouragement for their delusion. They do not "transition" and all of the medical intervention in the world will not change the reality that they were, are and will always be MEN.

Chicks with dicks.

Take your smelly manmade fishy cunt and swim laps, bitch!

[quote]Oh, PLEASE, [R20]. You're acting as if MTF athletes have not been frequently actively lobbying to compete against cis-women rather than against cis-men! Don't piss on our legs and tell us it's raining. We didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

Then stop using the made up words of the mentally ill. There is NO SUCH THING AS CIS.

[quote]But of course [R20] would go especially after rescue-chick, one of the few openly self-identified cis-women on the forum.

Again, we don not adopt the nonsense language of the mentally ill.

[quote]yes trans people are a part of the LGBT community, straight women aren’t. Is that a difficult concept for you?

The majority of MtF trans ARE straight women Dora Dmbfuck---if, as you say, you respect trannies for the gender they 'claim' to be.

[quote]Biden is threatening to take away funding for the school lunch program if schools don't let boys in the girl's bathrooms and on sports for girls

Thank you, GOD! Keep it coming'. Free advertising.

[quote]If countries want to withdraw from international competitions because they find that arrangement transphobic

LOL, who the fuck would that be? Everyone just wants these freaks to go away.

I did a lot of volunteering in the 1990s with LGBT groups. I never heard other gay men or lesbians engage in trans erasure. I mean, I get that some gays are pissed off at how extreme some parts of the trans community are these days, but R206 writes that trans people don't exist. At all.

Must be a bitter old gay or a frau who comes here for the Meghan Markle bashing.

Bizarre.

Yes, as usual, R131 - Rescue Chick - is correct.

The case of Caster Semenya illustrates this. Caster is XY with undescended testes. She/he still has testosterone coursing through her/his body and underwent male puberty.

R171. We all lost out when Magdalen Berns died. She was an amazing woman, fearless and strong. RIP.

"I did a lot of volunteering in the 1990s with LGBT groups" - No you didn't r214, because there were no such things as "LGBT" groups in the 1990s. They were lesbian and gay groups, often with a focus on either lesbians or gay men and in those instances run respectively by lesbians or gay men.

Don't bother listening to Cinesnatch - he has mentioned in another thread before that he's a tranny, in another that he fucks trannies and then in ones like this one, he pretends to be a gay man.

Obvs. a tranny.

Lia Thomas?

She's hawt!

LOL @ the idiot upthread who says real straight women aren't welcome here, but fake ones are (aka trannies).

[quote]The liberal media tried to cancel him FOR WEEKS but they couldn't because he's too well liked and has been around too long.

You forgot the elephant in the room regarding Chappelle's Teflon status. He's a black man. And Thank God. If he was white, he'd be burned at the stake.

[quote] Biden is threatening to take away funding for the school lunch program if schools don't let boys in the girl's bathrooms and on sports for girls

Incredibly myopic to punish low income children who greatly benefit from school lunch programs. It’s plain cruel to be honest.

Question for all the gays and lesbians…be honest. Do you consider Caitlyn Jenner an advocate for issues pertaining to you as a homosexual? What about Laverne Cox?

An transgender man usually considers themselves straight. A transgender woman usually consider themselves straight. If gay rights are a group project, transgender people came in when the project was almost done and are now trying to take all the credit. Meanwhile, they couldn’t give a lesser fuck what happens to LGB people.

[quote] I did a lot of volunteering in the 1990s with LGBT groups. I never heard other gay men or lesbians engage in trans erasure

There were no LGBT organizations in the 1990s. Let alone acknowledgment of transvestism as crusaders of gay rights.

Reports out of the White House that they're frustrated because their messaging isn't coming through, Hillary literally spelling it out for them that they need to drop the T stuff... Why won't they listen?

Man, I hope Roe falling will be a sobering moment for them. But I doubt it, they will somehow find a way to make abortion into a mainly trans issue as well.

R204 They are free to do so . Transmen have no advantage over their male born competitors .

And my R108 30 day reddit ban saga continues . Under my ban announcement it said that if I disagreed or wanted to challenge it I should reply to this message , I did , pointing out that facts are facts . I wasn't using curse words or called anyone names . Just said that mentioning facts isn't transphobic. Well now I got another message , this time telling me that my account was flagged for targeted harrassment . Apparently telling people that for example the women's pole vault world record is 5.06 meter and the men's 6. 20 is transphobic , as is pointing out that the same guy who jumped 6.20 m also jumped 6.05 as an 18 year old . Or that any guy with a time of 10.49 seconds (the women's world record ) in the 100 m dash wouldn't even see a starting line .

How did this even start?

Was it some leftisy wokies who forced this onto democrats, knowing it would lose them voters. Same like the defund the police loonacy.

One thing for sure transitioning didn't fix the male entitlement issues for transwomen.

r224 Exactly. I recall in my own country even a decade ago, they were hangers-on and considered these oddities that latched onto the gays and lesbians because they had nowhere else to go. Crazy how loud their voices have gotten at this point, and our society is reacting against all the rest of us in response. We're sliding backwards because of a group that has nothing to do with us.

I'll say it again. A so-called trans female who still has male genitalia is not transgender. He is a transvestite. And even if they have their male genitals removed they're still not real females. "Trans" should be considered the 3rd sex and in sports, males should compete against males, females against females, and trans should compete against trans.

[quote]Question for all the gays and lesbians…be honest. Do you consider Caitlyn Jenner an advocate for issues pertaining to you as a homosexual?

I would listen to Caitlyn Jenner on sport yes, bearing in mind she has an Olympic gold medal in the Decathlon, and event she won as a man, and event where her performances didn't come close to matching the males in individual competitions but where her performances would have won 4 golds and set 4 world records if she'd competed against women who focus solely on their specific disciplines. And this being 1976 a lot of the women were on a doping regime.

Aside from Jenner Daley Thompson is probably the highest profile male to speak out on this issues. He only finished 18th in 1976 aged 17, but would have won several medals competing on the women's competition. He went on to win gold in 1980 and 1984.

R224, I volunteered at Our House of Portland and Phoenix Rising and they both operated under an LGBT context in promotional materials, as well as training. I marched in the PRIDE parades as well. The "LGBT" label was utilised and often. Volunteers were a cross-section of exactly that: lesbians, gay men, bi's, and trans. That was the mid-90s.

Please don't tell me what my experience was when I was the one who lived it. Thanks.

About bloody time.

And Thomas' "wins" at UPENN should be revoked and the top 3 places re-ordered.

Here's some reading material for those who have comprehension skills:

[quote]From about 1988, activists began to use the initialism LGBT in the United States. Not until the 1990s within the movement did gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people gain equal respect. This spurred some organizations to adopt new names, as the GLBT Historical Society did in 1999.

You assholes just really like to make up shit and then gaslight others into trying to believe they're wrong.

Our House of Portland was established as an AIDS organization that even got to help heterosexual males and females with AIDS. It never operated as an LGBT organization because there were none at that time.

[quote]I volunteered at Our House of Portland

Why am I not surprised?

I worked with trans volunteers (as well as gay, straight, lesbian, and bi) and promotional materials used the "LGBT" moniker. Did you volunteer there as well, R234?

Cinesnatch is posting revisionist history in a thread about Lia Thomas. Is this person pissed because Thomas won’t be allowed to enter the Olympics? What is his(??) angle?

Huh.

I sent R237 to my Ignore List and then, unexpectedly, R234 vanished. So I guess they were the same person and R234 didn't answer my question, and just dodged it.

Looks like R224 disappeared as well. Huh. So, I guess all three were the same gaslighter.

I won't miss them.

It will bring new meaning to the term " Drag Races."

Poor r199 doesn't understand human biology.

R204, That you even ask illustrates the extreme rarity of such an eventuality.

And in what athletic endeavor might you imagine it to occur?

Snooker? Chess? Darts?

Per a recorded interview, Thomas didn't "decide" they were "Trans" until in college, on the men's swim team, and not winning.

I'm not saying; I'm just sayin'.

Skip all the b. s., just go by sex on original birth certificate.

R242:

[quote]Thomas ... began swimming at the age of five, and was sixth in the state high school swimming championships, competing for Westlake High School ... Towards the end of high school, Thomas began to question her gender identity ... After her freshman year at college, during the summer of 2018, she came out as transgender to her family.

[quote]Thomas began swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania in 2017, and during her freshman year, recorded a time of 8 minutes and 57.55 seconds in the 1,000-yard freestyle that ranked as the sixth-fastest national men's time, as well as 500-yard freestyle and 1,650-yard freestyle times ranked within the national top 100. On the men's swim team in 2018–2019, Thomas finished second in the men’s 500, 1,000, and 1,650-yard freestyle at the Ivy League championships as a sophomore in 2019. During the 2018–2019 season, Thomas recorded the top university men's team times in the 500 free, 1000 free, and 1650 free.

[quote]She began transitioning using hormone replacement therapy in May 2019, and came out as a trans woman during her junior year to her coaches, friends, and the women's and men's swim teams at the University of Pennsylvania. She was required to swim for the men's team in the 2019–2020 academic year as a junior while undergoing hormone therapy and then swam on the women's team in 2021–2022

[quote]She began using her new name on New Year's Day in 2020. In an interview with Sports Illustrated she said, "In a way, it was sort of a rebirth, for the first time in my life, feeling fully connected to my name and who I am and living who I am. I am Lia.

I think a couple of you are taking this a little too far. My position is the trans groups have become extreme, they try to police thought and language (I will never say cis anything, it's stupid), the thing with children is just wrong, and trans women should not be allowed to play in women's sports.

However, I don't agree with those saying that trans people don't exist. Let's not go down that ugly road. If an adult says they were born the wrong gender, they deserve human respect and to be treated fairly. Lia Thomas is a douche who should not be allowed to swim against biological women, but if she says she's a woman, then who am I to say that she's not, in the same way that I believe that Rachel Dolezal gets to call herself black if she wants to.

[quote] LOL @ the idiot upthread who says real straight women aren't welcome here, but fake ones are (aka trannies).

Given a choice, I would much rather have the trannies on DL, as incredibly annoying as they are, than the straight women.

[quote]However, I don't agree with those saying that trans people don't exist. Let's not go down that ugly road. If an adult says they were born the wrong gender, they deserve human respect and to be treated fairly.

R245, for the last few years, respect for trans has gone out the window for a majority of DataLounge commenters in any trans-related thread. DataLounge has already gone down that ugly road and hasn't looked back. And when you call people out, you're attacked. Just read through this thread to see an illustration.

[quote] My position is the trans groups have become extreme

That’s the problem. People in many places have not stood up to them and said “No” to the most extreme demands. Every group needs other people to keep them in line and prevent extremism.

[quote]but if she says she's a woman, then who am I to say that she's not

Because it’s a lie, you know it is a lie, and it takes away the rights and dignity of actual females.

We should be looking to help alleviate these people’s anxiety though therapy and CBT, not indulging their wants for surgery and a lifelong dependence on pharmaceuticals.

[quote]if she says she's a woman, then who am I to say that she's not, in the same way that I believe that Rachel Dolezal gets to call herself black if she wants to.

Who are you? You're a brainwashed fool, that's who.

If a grown ass man tells you he's a 3 year old child and wants to go to pre-school with all the other toddlers, you would say say that's okay? Because "who are you" to object by stating facts and truth?

Just slap a ratty wig on it and viola. Woman.

[quote]Every group needs other people to keep them in line and prevent extremism.

R248. There is extremism being articulated daily against the trans on DataLounge. The few people who try to "keep them in line" are attacked, and there are fewer people who have their back. Read through this thread for examples.

There are some very good reasons you are far outnumbered, R252. Common sense, facts and science.

r252, spoiler alert: you’re the extremist, with your false accusations of everyone being “anti-trans” if they don’t agree with everything you say or if they are critical at all of anything any trans person does.

R254, the people in this thread who are stating there are only bio-males and bio-females, and that trans doesn't exist are extremists and anti-trans. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with me.

And, I don't sign on to 100% of what the trans-extremists say either.

But, feel free to MISREPRESENT my beliefs because YOU don't agree with them.

r255, you might get along better with others if you were to stop attacking other people and stop being so belligerent on threads like this.

It would be great to be OP and rack up so many WWs from DLers who agree with the FINA decision.

[quote]Male swimmers can compete in women's sport provided they started their transition before puberty

Gotta start those kids early!

[quote] I did a lot of volunteering in the 1990s with LGBT groups. I never heard other gay men or lesbians engage in trans erasure.

I did a lot of volunteering in the 1990s as well, but it was with gay and lesbian groups, as they were called then. Gay men and lesbians didn't engage in trans erasure because the trans weren't there to be erased. There were drag queens, but outside of their performances, they showed up in civilian male fashion. The straight men/transwomen like William Thomas and Richard Levine were nowhere to be found at these events, and in fact when those types appeared on Donahue and Sally Jessy Raphael, they took great pains to point out they were NOT gay.

Your experience was not my experience. There were men identifying as women volunteering where I was. Did you volunteer in Portland? At OHOP? At Phoenix Rising? Did you march in Portland PRIDE?

What part of that can you not get through your thick fucking skull, R259?

^We used to call them Transvestites. That's what most trannies actually are. They are straight men with a fetish for dressing up like women.

Let's go back to that. They want to shove that CIS bullshit down our throats, we can call them what they actually are.

[quote] If an adult says they were born the wrong gender

There are two errors here: 1) it's sex, not gender, and 2) you can't be born in the "wrong" sex -- your sex is just what it is, male or female. What your mind tells you is irrelevant to the reality of the biological world; my mind can tell me I'm a 11th century knight in France, and I can even dress as up as one, and insist that everyone refer to me as the Comte de Fou, but none of that makes it so.

I am a knight and if you don't let me joust I WILL KILL MYSELF!

R262 - Or, as one outraged New York City gay man insisted via a large placard outside Gracie Mansion when then-Mayor Ed Koch uttered the phrase, "Speaking as a heterosexual . . ."

"And I'M Carmen Miranda!"

[quote]Who are you? You're a brainwashed fool, that's who.

I don't think I'm brainwashed. If you read my original post, you would understand that I am against anti-extremism in the trans community. But, I do believe in showing people who are struggling some kindness and respect. I don't think that's wrong. There are those of us who can support trans people while not supporting an extremist trans agenda.

Lying moron homophobe woman-hater at r233, we all know that Wikipedia has been captured by the trans activists. Why don't you give the names of some of these "LGBT" groups you were working with in the 1990s?

William "Lia" Thomas is a man, r244.

R265, pro-tip: the vast majority of posters in these threads lack basic reading comprehension and reasoning skills.

They also lack empathy.

Go worship some magic crystals, R268, and maybe you'll feel better.

Oh fuck off, r268. Men like William Thomas should not be competing in women's races - if you think they should, then you completely lack empathy towards women. Which goes without saying - it's pretty obvious that you're a misogynist.

I have all the empathy in the world for people who've been tricked into transitioning. However, my empathy vanishes once they try to get other people to make the same mistake they did.

Okay. R240 - assuming you are a font of wisdom. Please explain why men and women should compete separately? Is it because they identify as different genders?

[quote] I have all the empathy in the world for people who've been tricked into BELIEVING they can transition.

[quote] Please explain why men and women should compete separately? Is it because they identify as different genders?

R272 is pretending to be stupid, She knows very well why.

I have Cinesnatch on block but I'm guessing he's a gay man of a certain age so maybe he can humour me.

In the 80s (and before) we had "gender benders" - men who wore make up and sometimes dresses and women who wore suits and had short hair. Everyone knew Grace Jones, Annie Lennox, Alison Moyet, Sinead O'Connor etc were women. Everyone knew Phil Oakey, Pete Burns, Boy George, Andy Bell, Spandau Ballet, Duran Duran etc were men. And then there were the glam rock men with long hair and make up.

Kate Bush played a man in her Cloudbusting video. Queen dressed up as women in I Want To Break Free.

Do you now consider all of those great artists to be transgender?

r270, there's some truth in that: this is wholly anecdotal, but in my experience, some of the most misogynistic men I've ever encountered were drag queens and extremely femme gay men. The language I heard from them in reference to women was appalling. I knew a very femme gay guy back in the 90s who took a particular delight in denigrating women and was fired twice for sexual harassment.

Obviously, not all -- I also knew some drag queens who were kindness personified and didn't have a hateful bone in their bodies. But so many others were deep in their hatred of women. I wonder where that comes from. Perhaps if society were more accepting of femme gay men? Really, that's where we need to go: sex isn't a spectrum, but masculinity/femininity are spectrums and are a feature of both males and females, and neither is better or lesser than the other.

It looks like Athletics is indeed next to do this

I'm an old Frau, have been around since Christine Jorgensen. I don't care how many men want to wear dresses and makeup (Lord knows I don't!), or how many boys want to wear girls' bathing suits.

But don't do the above in my dressing room, changing room, or bathroom. Don't do the above in competition or contest with me. Keep your uncovered male body with others, and take your competitive self to like opponents.

Surely other men and boys will "treat you with respect and dignity" no matter your attire, makeup, or hairstyle? Surely men and boys will welcome you into their more private zones?

No? Such accepting and even welcoming "respect and dignity" is expected only from women and girls? Why is that?

Why must we be cool with the intruding Lias of the world?

Boys competing agains girls in sports is not a platform dems can win on.

Great observation, R278

And Christine Jorgensen was the picture of class and grace, as I'm sure dear Frau at r278 remembers. A very far cry from the "lights out, steel cage match" attitudes of the transtapo flying monkeys we're dealing with today.

White gloves and all, r281! (Didn't Google.)

Miss Charlotte Clymer is very angry about this, so very angry she's thinking about a whispering a very unladylike word.

It's odd that she's so animated about this rule change as she cited her lack of interest in sport as one of the reasons she realised she was a woman and not a man.

[quote]FINA has chosen to disregard science - Charlotte Clymer

🤐

Clymer is a fetishist and a creep. He needs to stop harassing women.

I have no problem with this. They should have their own category. It's not fair to real women.

FINA is actually going by the science available, and I expect the Olympics committee and a few other international organizations to go the same way. I also expect that the rules will get more nuanced over time to allow people who went on puberty blockers as teenagers as well.

The effects of puberty blockers and early transgender medical care on athletic performance have not been studied well, nor have there been very many studies about athletic performance on trans women who transitioned as children/teens vs who transitioned post-puberty, but this is erring on the side of caution and not disallowing transgender women outright, just the ones who have significant physical advantages over the average high-performing cis female athletes. So this will all change and get more complex over time, but for now, this is the best thing for everyone.

Are they fina do it, or have they already done it?…

I hope cycling and weightlifting pass the same legislation next.

Good. I hope this signals a return to pre-2010.

When trans women (and men) were...wait for it...trans women (and men)! And that meant everyone (save for right wing bigots and general assholes) respected their dysmorphia. Respected that they truly felt they were born in the wrong body. Called them women (or men) socially and out of sincere respect and to give them the same dignity all humans deserve. Loved them for being themselves.

But all parties knew, accepted, and understood that, on a cellular level, trans women (and me) were NOT women (or men). No harm was done. Ah, such simpler times.

(No XY playing XX sports for god sake! How anybody thought that was ever the right thing to do is beyond comprehension really.)

[quote] How anybody thought that was ever the right thing to do is beyond comprehension really.)

Evidence that many are mentally ill.

EIGHTEEN TIME GRAND SLAM CHAMPION MARTINA NAVRATILOVA SLAPS DOWN TWO TIME WORLD CUP WINNER AND OLYMPIC CHAMPION MEGAN RAPINOE FOR SAYING MALES SHOULD COMPETE IN WOMEN'S SPORT

I don’t believe that puberty blockers have much effect on the human body with regards to abilities, you either have it or you do not.

Jazz started transitioning as a child and looks very much male, no amount of surgery, hormones and puberty blockers can hide his male body.

Puberty blockers and hormones did not make Jazzes hands or shoulders any smaller to be in line with a female physique and blockers have no impact on the skeleton , bones, heart and lung size which is based on genetics and sex.

Puberty blockers will also not give a male a pelvic tilt, I am disgusted by how deliberately some have decided to overlook biology to appease a very small group.

I don’t believe trans should be treated badly, I only expect that they respect the rights of others and seek the understanding they want by doing the same onto others.

The guy who is funding all of this is Jennifer Pritzker who didn't bother to transition until he was 63 years old. Claiming he always felt like a woman when in reality he is AGP. He has tons of stock in the medical-industrial complex. Each tranny will generate 1 million dollars in revenue for these sick billionaires over their lifetimes.

Megan Rapinoe sure sucks a lot of cock for a lesbian.

[quote]How people FEEL in their heads is up to them and may not match their chromosomes.

How people feel is absolutely up to them but the rest of the world is not required to validate their feelings. A 3 who feels like a 10 is not entitled to a modeling contract. A white man who feels like a black woman will not be invited to join Alpha Kappa Alpha.

[quote][R193] And yet, they still are, and still live as men or women. Cause there are still only two sexes.

Get out of here with that rubbish. There are not ONLY two sexes. There are infinite sexes. Lean into the science.

What are the chromosomal arrangements of these infinite sexes? Please elaborate.

XX, XO, XXX....

XY, XXY, XYY....

There are two sexes: XY and XX and the rare variations on XX and XY

Why is it every time you want me to elaborate? It’s exhausting. It’s not my job to educate you! Why don’t you pick up a book and educate yourself so you’re not so ignorant?

R299 You are an idiot. Be gone. You know nothing about chromosomes, sex, and basic biology. Go educate yourself. My 4 years of med school helped me learn a lot about chromosomes and sex. Go to med school or get a PhD in genetics. Then come back and try to engage in meaningful dialogue,

For now, stop spewing nonsense.

Here is tranny R299 belittling gay men.

"And… ? So what? You fags are attracted to straight men and share a locker room with them. Should they be afraid of you too? Do better."

Go finger fuck Charlotte Clymer's anus. DL is not a place for you.

Also the creature behind R299 has been posting only for a few months. Carpet Bagger, gay hating fetishistic creep.

"Do better" belongs on the Slang you dislike thread.

[quote] Why is it every time you want me to elaborate? It’s exhausting. It’s not my job to educate you!

Always the last resort of the woke when they're cornered argumentatively: "It's not my job to educate you." (Translated: I admit I lost the argument.)

And of course, you're [italic]exhausted,[/italic] like all the woke are. Poor darlings!

The second I read "It's not my job to educate you", I know I'm dealing with a moron.

Good. And FUCK trannies and those who defend them here. Die in a grease fire.

It isn't anyone's job to educate anyone but if you have a critical piece of information that the other person does not and that contextualizes what you're saying for them, well, that's how conversations WORK.

^ It's also how arguments work. If you can't back up your claims you have no business making them.

"It's not my job to educate you" = "I don't actually have any evidence for what I'm saying"

Speaking of facts: troll-dar reveals that r299, aka "It's Not My Job to Educate You!", has referred to Dataloungers elsewhere on this thread as "you fags."

I used to be deluded too. And then I did, in fact, educate myself. Perhaps you should educate yourself.

US women's soccer hero Megan Rapinoe has come out strongly in favor of including transgender women in women's sport, labelling the arguments against 'cruel and disgusting'.

The veteran soccer star, who co-captained the United States Women's National Team in 2019 as they won a second successive World Cup, was dismissive of the notion that trans women are dominating women's sports and thus need regulating.

Instead, she argued that excluding them from competing at lower levels is cruel, as people value their 'kid's high school volleyball team' ahead of the lives and wellbeing of transgender people.

R231 You need to show documentary evidence to substantiate those unhistorical claims of yours.

Then Megan better get used to never winning another game or medal. The US women's soccer squad lost matches to a boy's under 15 team a few years ago.

Yes, let's see Megan vs CR7. Wonder what the outcome will be...

Megan (r312) above most should know that some "kids' high school volleyball team" can lead to college scholarships and more beyond.

And anyway, why is disappointing a majority of young (mostly female) athletes no big deal, worthy even of scornful dismissal, while being oh, so supportive of ALLEGED (because impossible to prove) "feelings" of a minority of others, EVEN IF TO THE DETRIMENT of the original group?

This issue is not the same as eliminating Jim Crow laws, for racial equality cannot be argued is detrimental to the majority or society.

This issue is not the same as eliminating laws favoring males, for gender equality cannot be argued as detrimental to males (the minority!) or society.

This issue is not the same as passing laws to aid people with disabilities, for removing physical obstacles and/or adding physical aids cannot be argued as detrimental to the fit or society.

Using only one example: The women's swim team of the University of Pennsylvania were harmed---deprived of victories, deprived of other competition placements, potentially deprived of financial aid---by the rules allowing Lia Thomas to compete as a woman.

That example makes it logical to argue that those rules ARE detrimental to women and society.

They cannot be allowed to stand, favoring unproven "feelings" above proven harm.

[quote] Instead, [Meagan] argued that excluding them from competing at lower levels is cruel, as people value their 'kid's high school volleyball team' ahead of the lives and wellbeing of transgender people.

What Rapino appears to be saying is that the feelings of trans kids take priority over the feelings of non-trans kids. Where there is a clash of rights it is up to a neutral and detached arbiter — in this case FINA and eventually the courts — to determine the appropriate weight to be given to those competing interests.

On its face, there may be some initial appeal to the argument that the trans kids have a harder time of adjusting and navigating a system and the non-trans kids should accommodate any interference with their rights. But that seems unfair, especially where success — or more importantly the lack of it — could determine scholarships, among other benefits.

I try to avoid social media. Are the woke police flipping out over this sensible decision?

Trans, trumps Everything! Just ask Joe Biden. If MTF can't use girls toilets in schools(member the rapist in VA. that the school tried to cover up, PS, it cost the Dems. the governorship) & compete in sports, Joe won't give Any child in school food. So poor people get clobbered yet again. Thanks Joe.

HALLELUJAH!

[quote]Are the woke police flipping out over this sensible decision?

Hopefully, and hopefully this is the beginning of the end of listening to every woke fad musings, most of them make no sense at all and only help the GQP.

R321, the reaction seems pretty muted. The liberal media isn't really going insane like they did during the Dave Chappelle controversy.

They know now that transgenderism isn't a winning cause.

Three points:

1) Title IX happened because girls were essentially shut out of college scholarships boys were getting.

2) Males are born with different muscle and skeletal size advantages that don't go away, especially if you're an athlete, by taking estrogen or removing your penis.

3) I am a woman who had her uterus and cervix removed. I had a breast removed and have been on estrogen blockers for 8 years. Despite all of that working against me, I still look female. That's how hard it is to undo science

[quote] The liberal media isn't really going insane like they did during the Dave Chappelle controversy.

Saving up their strength for the Tuesday meltdown. Trannys rank below abortion

There is just too much polarization shaping public opinion, from both political spectrums. It divides and chips away support from reasonable centrist parties. The only one who benefits from polarization are the enemies of Western democracy. Remember in 2016 Russia boosted 3 presidential campaigns, Trump's Stein's and Sanders'.

R324 - not according to the ACLU - abortion rights only affect trans!

Do you have any idea how many trans sex workers of colour will DROWN as a result of FINA's policy?

Is Megan Rapinoe a biological woman transitioning to male?

If so, maybe she should start playing in male soccer teams so she can see how it feels to be overpowered by males.

DeSantis now can legitimately say " I told you so"

Unfortunately R329, Democrats need to stop listening to what the wokies say. Good thing this discussion happens now and not one week before an election.

Race is arguably a social construct so albinos should identify as trans white if they want to!

[bold]WOKE WOKE WOKITY WOKE TRANS BLM CRT ANTIFAAAA!!!![bold]

[quote] Trans, trumps Everything! Just ask Joe Biden

Yes! What is Joe doing?

And what is this creature doing?

How will this ruling affect synchronized swimming?

International Rugby League has now followed suit. I think for a contact sport like rugby there is a large safety aspect as well. I suppose they had to do something ahead of the world cup.

I’m sorry for your trouble r323.

R334 living his best autogynephilic life, apparently.

BTW, something like 92% of the current crop of trans do not have any bottom surgery at all. They are fully intact and functioning down there.

Yeah, and? Bottom surgery is not the end all, be all. Your genitals don’t define you.

R340, they most certainly do. They are the outward manifestation of your immutable genetic sex.

The hell you say

I imagine other sporting bodies will follow suit now, which is great. Pity they were too cowardly to do it sooner.

The Guardian's Sean Ingle has covered this issue and wrote a fair assessment.

Remember that just like the sports governing bodies, sports journalism is dominated by men. Middle class, straight white men.

They genuinely think Laurel Hubbard, Emily Bridges and Lia Thomas are (stunning and) brave for living their truth because from their perspective it would be humiliating to say they were a woman and want to compete against girls instead of men. (Alexa, play the Charlotte Gainsborough quote from The Cement Garden, as used by Madonna in What It Feels Like For A Girl(

And Megan Rapino can go fuck herself. She plays in a sport where 14 people from each team can participate in each match. A trans woman competing in football wouldn't have anywhere near the impact of swimming, tennis, weightlifting, cycling, track and field etc.

r339 I agree but way more than 92%. Other classic trans cult lies (& intentional omission and misleading): "Completed transition" "Completed gender affirming/confirming surgery" etc.

None of that actually means that they chopped their genitals off. All this transition and surgery talks are almost always (other than really really tiny minority of extreme cases like Jazz Jennings) just about appearance-faking. Like some hormones, some boob jobs, some cosmetic surgery like facial feminisation and so on.

Wait, you mean I can't continue to harm women, breaking their bones, etc?

Wait ... there's more!

R347, hopefully there will be plenty more in the coming weeks and months, as the 2024 Paris Olympics approach.

By the way r348, that BBC headline is wrong, transgender players have not been banned from the international rugby league - they have simply been banned from playing in the wrong sex category. They can still play in their own sex category.

There's been a lot of criticism about how some BBC journalists are reporting these stories.

"Transgender players banned from international game" is NOT TRUE.

"Transgender *women* banned from *women's* international games" is TRUE.

[quote] BTW, something like 92% of the current crop of trans do not have any bottom surgery at all. They are fully intact and functioning down there.

No sane person with a working penis would want to lose it.

No issues at all for transwomen in team games - just check out images of 'Hannah Mouncey, who formerly competed in Australian Rules football and handball at a high level as a man.. She tried to compete in women's Australian football as well, but too many women got broken legs.

r350 That's been mainstream media, not just BBC. They've been indirectly pushing the trans cult with their disgusting lie-filled headlines like that for years.

The BBC is Biased Central

[quote]No issues at all for transwomen in team games - just check out images of 'Hannah Mouncey, who formerly competed in Australian Rules football and handball at a high level as a man.. She tried to compete in women's Australian football as well, but too many women got broken legs.

The BBC ran a story about how a trans woman was made to feel included in a women's rugby team in Wales. It included the lines:

[quote]She's going to be a good, good player for the next few years, as long as we can stop her injuring players in training."

[quote]"She folded a girl like a deckchair during a game, which was quite funny, but they're still friends."

But after some pushback the BBC removed this section:

[quote]And it is not just players that have felt her force, as her own coach Wayne Mansell recalls: "She's put me in hospital, I won't lie about that. She's given me a fracture in my ankle during a game of touch."

[quote]Even male-born trans player Kelly knows deep down its not fair or safe. Kelly said "I do feel guilty, but what can you do? I don't go out to hurt anybody. I just want to play rugby at the end of the day."

Rugby is doing a HUGE amount of work on increasing safety for players during the match and they know there are lawsuits coming from men who have been injured by other men. Women injured by male players would be an absolutely catastrophe.

[quote] I just want to play rugby at the end of the day.

Then Morgan should play rugby on a MALE team. After all, he's a MALE.

Look at this asshole Mouncey trying to preempt the comments on the obvious size differential in this picture with bullshit. It's like a giant male gorilla pretending it's a tiny little gibbon. What a fucking freak and a total piece of shit.

R340 it's a relevant point because public support for trans men in womens' spaces and sports goes away, way down when they realize that fact. A lot of average, uninformed people think that most trans get bottom surgery, but that is very far from the truth, and when they understand that these are fully intact males, their opinion changes.

R355 if she "just wants to play rugby", why not play on the men's team?

When the "trans-everything" house of cards is finally blown down, I hope we remember, and hold accountable the fools who tried to shove it down the throats of reasonable people. The medical industry, the politicians, the darlings of stage and cinema.

For whatever reason they give for throwing sanity into the garbage, it is unforgivable. Lives have been destroyed; grave damage has been done.

[quote]When the "trans-everything" house of cards is finally blown down, I hope we remember, and hold accountable the fools who tried to shove it down the throats of reasonable people. The medical industry, the politicians, the darlings of stage and cinema.

Nope. Those people will scuttle away into the darkness and the people to get the blame will be us - the hijacked LGB.

I do have a hard time understand the psychology of someone who says they are a woman, yet are still peeing from a penis. Do they still use the penis for sex? And I think these are questions, you're not supposed to ask, but doesn't the penis break the illusion?

[quote][R355] if she "just wants to play rugby", why not play on the men's team?

Because it’s ma’am!!

[quote] Do they still use the penis for sex?

For the vast majority of straight men who are trans-identifying, yes. In fact, it's their kink.

For some gay men who are trans-identifying, also yes, especially if they are involved in prostitution.

Really, the number of individuals who genuinely suffer from extreme gender dysphoria is quite small, a minority in the group collectively called transgender.

I have strong feelings on the surgical aspect being accepted as a change in sex because it’s nothing more than a cosmetic procedure and will not change a persons sex.

To me it does not matter if you chop off your breasts or turn your dick inside out, you will always be the same sex.

A woman does not stop being a woman because she is post menopausal, or has had a hysterectomy or mastectomy.

A man does not stop being a man because he has erectile dysfunction or prostate removal, he is still and always will be a male.

for example, this delicate flower had the penis chop and now has a pleasant peanut clit and races in female bike races (if you can't tell which one I am referring to, it's the bloke)

Those poor lesbians!

Also that man is huge.

FIFA now considering this for football (soccer).

I think Dr. Sportscheat may have lost his pleasant peanut clit in his enormous fupa/gunt.

That male cross dresser who now calls herself "Veronica Ivy" has been harassing women for years. She made a crude tweet celebrating the death of Magdalen Bern.

Get this pig out of women's sports.

LOL, he calls himself a Dr. But he's only a Dr. of trans studies, whatever that is. Who cares? He's a vile piece of shit as those tweets prove.

Transgender women who take hormone therapy for extended periods of time often do experience erectile dysfunction, and their testicles may shrink as well. The shrinkage is never reversible; the erectile dysfunction is sometimes permanent too.

many of them take viagra or occasional testosterone in able to maintain an erection.

Viagra doesn't help much when it's due to years-long estrogen (over)usage. This isn't disclosed much to older trans women who start on estrogen. The side effects are glossed over or made to seem like they are rare or minor. I have known more than one trans woman who transitioned as an adult and was very, very dismayed by the not-insignificant loss of sexual function just as I've known a few trans men who didn't love the sudden cystic acne and hair loss.

Honestly, I wish the doctors couldn't hide behind 'informed consent' forms and could be sued.

What do you, a woman, know about Viagra and erections?

But "some women have penises!"

Yes, they do but they don’t call it penises. Shenis, fenis, ladydick, male pussy, mussy, it’s all preferable. Language matters.

R378, do trans women not have transition regret though, from other peoples’ reaction to the physical organ? Regardless of what it is called. What percentage of straight men on dating sites would see the organ as not a male organ solely because of changing the word used to describe it? Likewise with the other incomplete changes, the way the formative years in the womb and early childhood form a person such that appearance might be in between and not complete for most people- is there anger and regret over the transition not really being a full transition? By that point many of the changes are not reversible- does unhappiness with the surgery get shifted onto unhappiness with people not recognizing the desired gender? If it were really as simple as you identify as something and you automatically are that, no one would ever get misgendered. Years ago doctors only agreed to do these surgeries if they thought the person could reasonably expect to pass afterwards.

Sounds like most women athletes would prefer a ban, but don't want to say so publicly. Glad FINA took a stand on this. Shame that cycling went the other way because, somehow, inclusion trumps fairness.

If I showed some of you idiots two pictures, one of a dick and one of a vadge, are you actually saying you wouldn't be able to figure out which one had XX chromosomes and which one had XY chromosomes? Which one was a man and which one was a woman?

[quote] If I showed some of you idiots two pictures, one of a dick and one of a vadge, are you actually saying you wouldn't be able to figure out which one had XX chromosomes and which one had XY chromosomes? Which one was a man and which one was a woman?

How could anybody who isn't a biologist !

India Willoughby was representing trans men on British media today.

Another reminder that Stonewall COULD engage in these debates and discussion but they have stated NO DEBATE so it's left to nutters like Willoughby to share her expertise on sport.

[quote]If I showed some of you idiots two pictures, one of a dick and one of a vadge, are you actually saying you wouldn't be able to figure out which one had XX chromosomes and which one had XY chromosomes? Which one was a man and which one was a woman?

Completely irrelevant. How could you expect anyone to assign sex to the pictures without knowing the back stories?

[quote] do trans women not have transition regret though, from other peoples’ reaction to the physical organ?

They have no embarrassment when they put on lipstick and a dress and grow their hair long (or wear a wig) and then look like Milton Berle, so they are apparently immune from other people’s reaction.

[quote]Completely irrelevant. How could you expect anyone to assign sex to the pictures without knowing the back stories?

Or feelings!

[quote]What percentage of straight men on dating sites would see the organ as not a male organ solely because of changing the word used to describe it?

Only bigots do. Only transphobes do.

R387, doesn’t it create a lot of anger if most people do, though? Like if a completely untransitioned trans woman whose transition consists of saying she is a woman decides she would like to date a straight man, and he looks at her and says that due to her physical appearance he considers her a man, does she then say that sex is mental? Is it supposed to be a mind having sex with a mind? Are minds really sexual or are they thinking about everything from crossword puzzles to stock prices? Is the left side of this brain virtually having sex with the right side of that brain in an imaginary world? I’m being ridiculous but ultimately sex is about sex parts. The surgery if it doesn’t work all the way creates the artificial appearance of an intersex condition and most intersex people want surgery so that they pass; the over medicalization of gender bending is probably going to create people who are tremendously unhappy because they can’t pass. Mentally feeling like you like certain things is possible as you grow up but having a clear idea of what liking certain things really means comes later and perhaps for most people acceptance of who you are, everything that you are, without medical treatment may be the best course.

R366, All three are men!

GENOCIDE!!!

I'd like to see people starting to mass-share those "trans murder" and "trans suicide" statistics, because it's actually all manipulative bullshit.

Why do individuals like Rhiannon Raven Rose tweet so urgently about the genocide of trans women?

Sex workers get murdered and that would include transgender people. That sucks. But what kind of numbers are we talking about?

Outside of the sex worker world, where is this genocide taking place? I feel like transgender people are emerging in large numbers- not being mass murdered.

I know 3 families with teens who are recently trans. I don’t even know a lot of people.

Exhausting!

“Laura Edwards-Leeper, PhD (@DrLauraEL), a prominent gender therapist who has recently expressed concern regarding adequate gatekeeping when treating youth with gender dysphoria, agreed.

She tweeted: "You simply can't call yourself a legit gender provider if you don't believe that detransitioners exist. As part of the informed consent process for transitioning, it is unethical to not discuss this possibility with young people." Edwards-Leeper is professor emeritus in the School of Graduate Psychology at Pacific University in Hillsboro, Oregon.“

The last decade has moved a lot of things forward in terms of feeling comfortable as a nonconformist. You could argue there’s less need to physically or medically transition to something else than ever before- because people will accept you the way you are, accept that the way you are is ok as long as it’s consensual and not harmful. So then why have surgeries that physically and mentally change you? The advocacy is to have life-changing physical surgery early in life to treat a mental condition; conversion therapy to not need life-changing surgery is not the same as conversion therapy to change being gay or lesbian, because being gay or lesbian isn’t something that requires a serious medical procedure. A person can have a transgender mindset and mannerisms even without surgery and without changing pronouns…

A few years ago, Channel 4, a left-leaning British media outlet, examined the claim of an epidemic of trans murders in the UK. They concluded that, on average, ONE trans person in murdered in the UK per year. I don't know the stats for other countries.

for the past few years there's been more trans murderers in the UK than trans murdered.

Yep, here is a victim of the murderous trans woman Eva Amati.

R396 That creature was an obvious lunatic.

How many drugs do you need to turn into an axe-murderer?

R397. "Eva" was angry as she was rejected by a woman on a dating app after realizing "Eva" was a man.

Classic males who call themselves trans response to rejection: violence and attempted murder.

I have another question. Do trans women who decide to keep their penises walk around with bulges or do they wear compression garments or tuck like drag queens? This is probably a silly question, but I am genuinely curious.

Why would you ask such a silly question. I don't bother tucking, I am proud of my penis.

r399, I can do this all day

[quote]I know 3 families with teens who are recently trans.

No lie, I do as well.

R400 That kook still makes me laugh.

I'm waiting for Glenn Close do the movie version— after all she did that unwatchable Irish Nobbs movie.

R390 not in the same mass as biological women by their intimate male partners.

So if women athletes bring their testosterone levels up, they won't be banned anymore? Fair is fair.

This is never been about sports.

Transgenders have been so passionate about this issue because they know if they are not women on the playing field then they are women nowhere.

This is for the best for the trans, even if they don’t realize it. It’s saving them from themselves.

WTF do they all have purple hair? Is that a mandatory uniform to belong to the trans cult?

[quote][R397]. "Eva" was angry as she was rejected by a woman on a dating app after realizing "Eva" was a man.

Now do you see what transphobia and misgendering makes people do? No one wants to feel rejected or have their self esteem deflated. More education is needed. The right wing anti-trans troll is disgusting. Should be ashamed of yourself.

Attention. Attention! Shame that the are seeking a permanent solution for a temporary feeling. Imagine being 50 & having these pictures of you in this pathetic drag living forever on the internet. Someone at your job who hates you, finds them & posts them to everyone's email.

Look what you made me do.

Lia would be a star water polo player on a women’s team. He’d absolutely demolish those bio chicks.

[quote] Now do you see what transphobia and misgendering makes people do?

Reality can be a frightening thing to the delusional.

[quote] No one wants to feel rejected or have their self esteem deflated.

Then perhaps it's time they stop passing themselves off as something they will never, ever be.

[quote] More education is needed.

Absolutely! People should be well educated that humans cannot "transition", that they remain as they were born. That neither medical intervention nor personal presentation changes this reality.

[quote]A few years ago, Channel 4, a left-leaning British media outlet, examined the claim of an epidemic of trans murders in the UK. They concluded that, on average, ONE trans person in murdered in the UK per year. I don't know the stats for other countries.

Every year around the time of International Women's Day, British Labour MP Jess Phillips reads out the names of the women (and their children) killed by men in the UK. The list is collated by Queen Terf Karen Ingala Smith for her Counting Dead Women project.

Every year when Jess Phillips reads the names, TRAs including Miss Shon Faye get angry on Twitter because trans women aren't included, mainly because most years Jess Phillips had read out the list there are no dead trans women for commemoration. No anger about the names of the women and children who are listed.

Ingala Smith discusses the murder of trans women here on this links.

[quote]We know from the Femicide Census that 62% of women who were killed by men between 2009 and 2018 were killed by a current or former partner. In the year ending March 2020, the Office for National Statistics says that 46% of adult females and 7% of males were killed in domestic homicides. The ONS also said that 29% of female homicide victims recorded no suspect had been charged for the offence at the time of analysis. This will decrease as investigations proceed and the percentage of cases where a woman’s current or former partner is identified as being responsible for her death is likely to increase. The proportion of males killed by current or former partners is consistent with previous years. 8% of male homicide victims were killed by a partner in the year ending March 2019, 1% in the year ending March 2018 and 3% in the year ending March 2017. Note also that males are much more likely to be killed by a same sex partner, fatal violence is very rare in lesbian relationships.

But we need to focus on trans women!

I don't think a single transwoman has been murdered in the UK in the past few years, or even longer.

Is r409 satire or serious?

R416 it's either bad satire (I say bad because we get enough of it from the idiots who join these threads to shriek NAZI! BORIS! at everyone randomly) or it's that weird TRA troll from the UK who keeps switching tactics to try to derail any thread about this. He's pretty sure he is a genius and therefore it would be perfectly reasonable for him to troll by pretending to be a pretend troll.

The last trans woman murdered in Britain was Amy Griffiths in 2019.

TRAs can create a "Counting Dead Trans Women" project but they'll be very quiet most of the time.

The statistics are stupid anyway because there's rarely ever any proof that these people were murdered due to transphobia. The Brazillian transvestites that skew the worldwide statistics (quoted breathlessly by people trying to claim they're at high risk) are mostly hookers and drug dealers in an obviously dangerous and risky situation, and even with them there's not proof they were murdered due to being trans.

When I see people uncritically repeat this mantra that they're at constant risk of being murdered, it can't be healthy for the trans because they are constantly hearing that they are liable to get murdered or commit suicide at any minute, and there ARE studies showing that things like that lead to higher stress, increased risk of suicide, and irrational acts.

If a professional were doing a makeover for a trans woman, strictly based on what is the best that can be achieved aesthetically, they would probably have the trans woman wear short hair and shirt and pants (no dress). Can any trans women here please explain the urge to have long hair and wear dresses? Many women in modern Western society have short hair and wear shirt and pants. Do trans women just have zero desire to look their best?

If Dr. Rachel Levine were to have a buzz cut and better glasses instead of long hair, she would look fine and not ridiculous as she does with long hair.

The aim of "transwomen" r420 is not to look or behave like actual women, but to look and act like stereotypes of women, stereotypes that are unrelated to how women themselves look, dress or act.

R421, I should add that their aim is to look like stereotypes that men have of women.

Because short hair and shirt and pants aren't the stereotypical "woman" that they are trying to present themselves as. And they also know that without the long hair and dresses they will look even less like a woman, because they are men. So they gain weight to hide their Adams' apples, wear dresses and makeup, and grow their hair long (or wear wigs due to alopecia).

Whereas a woman can cut her hair short and dress like a stereotypical man and still clearly be a woman, 99.999% of trans women can't do that. And they are desperate for other people to percieve then as women.

Transphobia is satire to you?!

Give it up, r424.

R420 if Rachel Levine got a buzz cut he would look even more like a man than he does right now. Which is very.

OK. I hope & pray their sake their goal is just to get loads of attention. Cause if their goal is to get laid..we,, what can I say, I'm not gonna hit it, RU?? Be honest folks!

One of the trans movement's many mistakes was to overuae the words TERF and Transphobe. They no longer have any meaning whatsoever, because they apply to anybody who is remotely sane who doesn't think that a man wishing to be a woman magically makes him one, indistinguishable from the genuine article.

This sad little movement has only gained any traction because there is an astounding amount of money behind it (Pritzker, pharmaceutical companies, etc). 90% of humanity knows trans activists are full of shit, in addition to being ugly and unfuckable.

Disclaimer for the 5% or so of the current trans population who have dysphoria and are just trying to alleviate it without trying to force everyone else on the planet to accommodate them in innumerable unreasonable ways. I have zero problem with them.

[quote]One of the trans movement's many mistakes was to overuae the words TERF and Transphobe.

And FASCIST

The person in the Hillary Clinton interview had it right - if you're trying to pretend JK Rowling, a feminist liberal who donates millions to liberal causes, is a fascist, then you're just batshit.

It was also hard for people to cosign what happened to JK Rowling. She was sort of trashed for supporting women.

R428 And the narrative that anyone who says they are trans is trans , no questions allowed and if you don't treat them like their preferred gender you're an evil transphob . That and affirmative care only . I mean nobody runs into a hospital and goes all " I googled , I have cancer , give me chemo . No, I don't need further tests, I have cancer and if you don't pump my body full of toxic chemicals because I say so you're evil !!"

The Guardian have published a very poorly written article by trans barrister Robin Moira White (she/her) - White is currently defending Stonewall in Allison Bailey's employment tribunal.

White's argument is absolute nonsense

[quote]Other sporting organisations will need to consider carefully whether any alleged sex-based advantage applies in the particular circumstances of their sport. In football, for example, being smaller and nimbler might balance out advantages of absolute speed or strength. The trans cyclist Emily Bridges, recently excluded from elite competition by British Cycling, explained in an interview with ITV that the reduced testosterone regime can leave a trans athlete with a larger male frame but only female-level cardiovascular and respiratory performance – thereby putting them at a disadvantage.

Does White honestly think that a professional footballer is going to take their club to an employment tribunal because their contract isn't being renewed because of a physical feature? Maybe she's just floating this idea to get some potential clients.

And poor Miss Emily Bridges, imagine ONLY having the cardiovascular and respiratory performance of Olympic medal women. Just imagine!

The usual lies from that AGP-written article at r432: "

[quote]A new policy barring most trans women from elite swimming has sent shockwaves through sport this week.

Trans-identified women have not been banned from elite swimming - they can compete in their sex class, i.e. in the men's competition.

The perpetually exhausted Roxane Gay talked to Megan Rapinoe about trans women in sports.

[quote]RG: The issue of trans women in women's sports comes up a fair amount, largely from very disingenuous places. How do we make space for that conversation in ways that don't silence anyone?

[quote]MR: Nobody batted an eye when Katie Ledecky was 20 pool lengths ahead, but Caster [Semenya, the two-time Olympic gold medalist from South Africa] can't run [because of a ruling prohibiting female athletes with naturally heightened testosterone from competing unless they reduce their hormone levels], and Katie's shoulders are really broad. The majority of the kids we're talking about are young and just want to participate. Shit's already hard enough. Let these kids play. Centering it around health care, you're obviously just trying to legislate people out of existence. The Olympics has testing rules and protocols, the NCAA has rules and protocols and the right makes it seem like, "Oh, anybody can just show up one day and put a wig on and compete." First of all, no, one's doing that and no trans woman is dominating in women's sports. Could that happen in the future? Maybe, and I'll hold space to talk about that. I feel confident we can figure out a way to have everybody participate and feel good and have it be fair. But we're putting the end goal of winning over everything else. I would give up any of the accomplishments I have, any of the wins I have, if you would tell me all the trans kids would be okay.

[quote]RG: I also think it is quite terrible is that transphobes are doing this on the backs of women. They're using advocacy for women and girls as an excuse, and I think for many women, we're like, "Oh, now you care about women? Now you want to worry about equality?"

[quote]MR: Exactly.

I checked on Instagram for: #transwomenaremen and there was a message stating “This hashtag is hidden. Posts have been limited because the community has reported some content that may not meet the Community’s guidelines.”

Then I checked for: #transwomenarewomen and there are hundreds of thousands of posts.

I find this sickening. I miss Magdalen Burns (RIP). If you don’t know of her, she was a great, intelligent lesbian who just pierced this nonsense in a direct way. And she was witty about it.

Would it be…histrionic to say this Instagram shit is an example of female erasure?

Where is all of this fucked up anti-reality going?

Btw, I’m an eldergay, and played around with genderfuck in the 80s/90s. I support people dressing and identifying however they want.

But don’t tell me up is down and down is up.

It will collapse, r435. Claims based on unreality and pseudo-science always do.

Always dragging Caster Semanya into it, who isn't even trans. Caster is a male with the usual male intersex condition, who should never have been allowed to compete against women. Caster looks male and lives a completely male life outside the athletics track, plus has kids about whom there is a lot of vagueness but may well be the results of his/her/their sperm being used to impregnate his wife.

Exactly. MR is full of shit. Caster is XY, a male, with undescended testes.

Nobody gives a shit about being called a TERF or transphobe anymore, so that shreeching point is now useless.

Are the people trolling these threads masturbating over how much they hate trans people the same ones who used to masturbate over how much they hate Muslims?

I suspect they are.

Please, even the comments on Jezebel.com are overwhelmingly in support(ish) of the ban. If they've lost the jezebel.com commetariat, they've lost.

[quote] if Rachel Levine got a buzz cut

He would be Rodney Dangerfield.

^^^❤

The thing about the pro-trans crowd is that you are not allowed to disagree or even discuss issues with them. It's their way or the high way with no room for nuance. The rage over JK Rowling is pretty ridiculous--she didn't say transitioning shouldn't be allowed. She didn't say that trans people shouldn't get married or change their names or use the pronouns of their choice. But I've seen two different middle-aged women, one with a trans kid, have melt-downs over the mention of her name and the suggestion that maybe she shouldn't have gotten death threats.

Ironically, it's that very inability to tolerate dissent or debate that's doing in the movement. If you know you'll get bullied for questioning the ideology, you don't engage. And you don't actually change your mind.

I've noticed that trans people have gone from being seen cool and edgy to odd, demanding and out of touch. Even their supporters tend to take a "oh-those-poor-things" attitude, while the insecure fat girls just call themselves she/they

There will always be people who don't want to follow the gender roles associated with their sex and there will continue to be some people who seem more at peace after transitioning, but trans faddism is finally wearing down. Not fast enough, IMO, but Lia Thomas' white male sense of entitlement may have finally done the trick.

[quote] Are the people trolling these threads masturbating over how much they hate trans people the same ones who used to masturbate over how much they hate Muslims? I suspect they are.

Give it a rest, you loon.

[quote] One of the trans movement's many mistakes was to overuae the words TERF and Transphobe. And FASCIST

If it walks like a duck, if it swims like a duck 🦆

There’s a fun rap song about the trans kid phenomena that lays the issue bare. It’s homophobic and pushed by homophobic people

“They let these kids consent to a sex change before they can legally consent to sex”

I have a feeling that Rapinoe might feel differently if she had a daughter who had to compete against biological men in track, swimming or basketball.

^^There's a lot of pressure on former athletes who were lionized by formerly gay non-profits to support the new trans fad.

It takes a brave person, like Martina who broke away from communist Europe oppression and groupthink, to publicly disagree with GLAAD, HRC, etc.

(Also, people in individual sports tend to be more opinionated anyway.)

The idea of trans calling anyone else a fascist is laughable. Their movement is the definition of fascism.

[quote]Ironically, it's that very inability to tolerate dissent or debate that's doing in the movement.

Unlike the posters in this thread, who seem to be taking differing opinions entirely seriously, with open minds, good faith, and a base level of human respect.

lol

The poster above commenting about masturbation got it right. I'd be shocked if 90% of the posts in this thread were made by more than 2-3 posters, total. And low-IQ Rescue-Chick, who seems to genuinely think that she's got some internet buddies who care a lot about XX women just like she does, is probably responsible for more than half of the remaining 10%.

The TRA is back and woman bashing like a good little gender cultist.

Get fucked in your cunt, R452. I have no use for women if they’re not trans allies. TERFS need to rot in hell.

Stunning, brave, but will never get laid. Unless they cough up some major cash.. Its so abundantly clear hat's what all the woman born with vaginas bashing is about. Plain & simple J E A L O U S Y. you look like a freak & you want to get laid...PAY FOR It! Stop hating on the real ladies who can get if for free.

Bitch please. I could get for free every day, all day. All your husbands cum running for my cock. Go back to vacuuming.

Is there a real live “transwoman” here- calling rescue chick a cunt?

Ha ha….

[quote]I would give up any of the accomplishments I have, any of the wins I have, if you would tell me all the trans kids would be okay.

Rapinoe is so disingenuous and full of shit. Let's see what happens when the entire Iranian women's soccer team is made up of 16-22 year old males in head scarves and they stomp the US women's team in the next Olympics or World Cup. And, then the Chinese women's basketball team, now made up of 6'4" very angular "women" beats the hell out of the US women's team with her wife standing there in shock.

[quote]^^There's a lot of pressure on former athletes who were lionized by formerly gay non-profits to support the new trans fad. It takes a brave person, like Martina who broke away from communist Europe oppression and groupthink, to publicly disagree with GLAAD, HRC, etc. (Also, people in individual sports tend to be more opinionated anyway.)

Tom Daley and his husband Bustin Dance Lack are big on gender ideology and Tom has spoken out repeatedly about LGBTQIA+ rights, but he's silent on this, and FINA is his governing body.

It is of course because this issues that affect him as a G - being made to compete in countries where kissing his husband after winning gold would see him sent to prison - are totally different to the issues that affect Ts. I'd hazard a guess it's because he's friends with all of the female divers and mixed sex diving is being introduced at the next Olympics.

Tom is silent on this r458 because he knows that having men such as Lia Thomas compete against women is fucking lunacy.

Tom is super gung-ho about everything else trans, though. He may be silent on this issue but none of the others.

Hypocrite.

I thought if you weren't 100% with them, you are a TERF - that's what they keep saying. So is Tom now a TERF by default?

R460, Tom is typical of the woke media gay who spouts the latest approved talking points re trans but who deep down doesn't really agree with everything he or she is regurgitating.

[quote]Are the people trolling these threads masturbating over how much they hate trans people the same ones who used to masturbate over how much they hate Muslims?

When you know you've lost the argument.

[quote]I've noticed that trans people have gone from being seen cool and edgy to odd, demanding and out of touch.

When were they ever cool and edgy?

R451, Your post is a good demonstration about what I'm talking about--personal, vicious attacks in lieu of, say, making an actual argument.

Your fixation on Rescue Chick and other comments all reek of misogyny. The hatred of biological women by trans activists is always striking. The MtF activists spew crude attacks on any woman who dares to question the ideology, while ignoring the men who push to pass laws that actually do affect their lives adversely, while the FtMs manifest incredible amounts of self-loathing.

You don't need drugs or a dress, you need intensive therapy.

[quote]Get fucked in your cunt, [R452]. I have no use for women if they’re not trans allies. TERFS need to rot in hell.

At least she has one. A REAL one instead of a hatchet wound that has to be dilated daily and can't get properly fucked anyway.

Who says I don’t have a real cunt, you cunt. I bet your short dick can’t even reach into ANY cunt or even hit the clitoris. Fucking incel.

Now do women's prisons.

^Tranny melt down.

^Faggot melt down

R471 displaying the homophobia of the trans cult in all its glory.

R468 shits out of his man made frankencunt.

Michael Malice interviews Blaire White. They both make some very logical, reasonable comments regarding the trans issue re children, athletics, etc.

The term "biological woman" in and of itself is considered transphobic. The argument is that trans women also have a biological makeup and are also women, so it follows that they are also biological women, because gender is what's between their ears and not what's between their legs. So they're women who happen to have different physiology than other (cisgender) women. The idea is that gender is a social construct and the widespread idea that gender is indicated by your sex organs is just something people believe because that's what they've been told their entire lives, but the existence of transgender people proves that it's not necessarily so.

Don't shoot the messenger, just repeating the rhetoric/other side of some of the arguments made in this thread.

This is why excluding Lia and people like her is seen as transphobic by gender activists: it's not that they're entitled because they're transgender, it's that they're entitled because they are women with different biology. They often point to the fact that there is quite a wide range of cisgender/non transgender women within the sport and some of them have builds close to Lia's, and also that biological advantages are perfectly allowable when it's got nothing to do with gender, e.g., Michael Phelps' naturally larger lung capacity.

Trans women are men.

OMG! Well, can we say "people born with XX chromosomes"?

Do transsexuals want all people who were born with XX chromonsomes to be murdered so there will be only be "their kind" of women in the world? Extermination camps, perhaps?

R475, “women with different biology” . . . This is what happens when you conflate a flimsy thing like “gender expression” with biology. Ideas about “gender, the roles of men and women in society, are vary from culture to culture, from era to era, and often are dictated by religion. Biology is like gravity: it’s there whether you believe in it or not.

No, you can't say that either because people born with XX chromosomes can have all sorts of issues where they don't present as women at all and of course, that invalidates trans men and nonbinary XX people and gender isn't chromosomes either, in this line of thinking.

This is the problem with this entire discourse- it isn't scientifically provable because there is no way to disprove it because everything that disproves it can also be seen as proving it.

To add: R477 I don't know any trans people who want to exterminate anyone. However, I do know a few who envision a future where everyone chooses their gender, or lack thereof, and no one is assigned a gender at birth and kids are just allowed to pick their gender (some people are already doing this with their kids), and they/them pronouns become the default. As I understand it, they don't see this happening through violent uprisings or anything, they just point to the fact that something like 15-30% of people under 25 identify as LGBTQ. The assumption is that few to none of these kids will detransition, especially with adequate social and healthcare support, but they believe the future is trans, basically.

People thought JK Rowling was over reacting when she ridiculed the term menstruator being used instead of woman.

Today Verso Books tweeted (and later deleted) about "womb carriers" in reference to the forced sterilisation of native American women. Of course there were old tweets where Verso had referred to testicle carriers as "men".

I think it was deliberate to get some social media attention as they're now promoting a book sale on "Key texts for understanding feminism at the intersection of class and race— 40% off!"

Most ordinary people who see that will not think favourably of the trans rights movement.

Well, it's not at all feminist to reduce cisgender women down to womb-carriers, for starters.

I don't have a huge problem with "pregnant people" because a great deal of "pregnant people" aren't women - they're children/minors and I'm uncomfortable with referring to raped and pregnant 13yos as "women" and it's just less of a mouthful than "pregnant women, underage girls and a few transgender people."

But womb-carriers and menstruators are reductivist as fuck and a rather puzzling rhetorical route for people whose primary argument is that biology doesn't determine anything about a person's identity.

[quote]I don't have a huge problem with "pregnant people" because a great deal of "pregnant people" aren't women - they're children/minors and I'm uncomfortable with referring to raped and pregnant 13yos as "women" and it's just less of a mouthful than "pregnant women, underage girls and a few transgender people."

Pregnant women and girls is fine thank you.

If you remove sexed terms from sex based rights you give permission to the opposite sex to dictate those rights.

R480 no one is assigned gender at birth except people with specific DSDs, which is where that term comes from, and it's "assigned sex"m at birth", not gender. 99.5% of people have an observed sex at birth.

The ongoing trend towards ultra-individuality among bored, over-comfortable young people means that it's unsurprising they will seek out more and more ways to claim to be different from others, in an age where you are attempting to create a unique fingerprint of a social profile, including any mental issues (many self-diagnosed).

It doesn't mean any of this actually matters or is important.

R482 using the term "cisgender" or "cis women" is also not feminist, as it reduces women to a subclass of their own sex.

And "pregnant people" is also not feminist, because if you are referring to pregnant women and girls, you can say pregnant women and girls, or if you are that concerned about length, you can say "pregnant females".

Trans-identified women self-excluding themselves from their own sex class is their decision, but they know biologically they are still women, not men, or nonbinary, or whatever else they invent as a new gender for themselves. Inclusiveness is fine but if it ends up confusing the majority at the expense of a tiny minority, then it is counterproductive and should be discarded.

[quote]The ongoing trend towards ultra-individuality among bored, over-comfortable young people means that it's unsurprising they will seek out more and more ways to claim to be different from others, in an age where you are attempting to create a unique fingerprint of a social profile, including any mental issues (many self-diagnosed).

Younger people now are the most miserable in history. They're dissatisfied, unhappy, neurotic and have very limited prospects when it comes to their careers.

Changing their identify is an easy way of changing their life. When they apply for a job and don't get it it's because they're trans. When they don't have a long lasting relationship it's because they're trans. When they can't afford to buy or rent somewhere it's because they're trans, even though most of them are gender confirming in the way that the new romantics, goths, emo, grunge crowd were gender non conforming.

I know a woman who is now in her 30s who has been miserable since leaving university. She tried being a lesbian for a period and is now changed their name to a male name and is they/them. She posts photos of her hairy legs which she's stopped shaving and is saving up for top surgery. She genuinely believes that a double mastectomy is going to improve her happiness and make her content with her lot.

It's just so sad.

R475, of course brains are diverse. But brains don’t have sex organs. Gender roles are social constructs, yes, but gender isn’t sex. You don’t physically transform because of your thoughts. It’s a reverse of this philosophy that makes sense. You can be male and identify with female stereotypes or female and identify with male stereotypes, but the stereotypes are the social constructs. Bodies are not social constructs; we’re born with them. Rules are made broadly; occasionally there will be large and strong women but the rule limiting women’s sport to women is based on averages. It’s the same concept as saying below a certain age you should take a smaller dose of medicine- some kids are big or small for their age but the rule is based on averages and you tweak from there. Women’s sports are designed to include women, who would largely be excluded from open entry sports because of differences on average.

R475 but they aren't "women with different biology". They are men who want to be validated externally as women. They are not, in fact, women.

When it comes to competitive sport, you are already excluding a large portion of the population. It's by definition exclusionary. And women's sports exclude men.

R480, why should anyone have to choose a stereotype or non-stereotype? In this flexible world we live in, how is choosing and then conforming to a stereotype liberating anyone from a social construct? They are even more deliberately choosing the social construct, and then undergoing hormone treatments that in some ways change them from what they initially were when they made the decision. So it’s not necessarily about being yourself but deciding to get medical help to try to physically change into something else. For something that is supposed to be about the brain, it’s disconcerting how much of it is actually about physical parts, changes, and hormones.

Not only about surgeries and medicalization, but also about actively stopping any attempts to find non-medical ways to help people with gender dysphoria and autogynephilia. Guess which way makes more money for corporations?

You are all arguing with me even though I said specifically that I didn't necessarily agree with any of this but was just relaying the counter arguments to things people use to rebut some of the thoughts in this thread that I have personally heard. Just because someone understands a specific position in this discourse doesn't mean they agree with the position themselves. Irritating.

R490 oh yes, the rates of elective double mastectomies have skyrocketed for women under 30 in the last decade. The medical industry will make over a million dollars per transgender person receiving gender-affirming medical care in the United States. Increasing rates of transgender identification is profitable for many people, there's no debate about that.

It’s not just in this area of healthcare but in all areas of research. Harms in general are researched less than benefits. And studies of any kind have to get funding from somewhere.

I hope there will be a special place in hell for these Greed Hog Faux Medical People who are making major bank off people who transition. And those who encourage children to do this. .

I like to imagine they will join Hitler in the Little Nicky scene with the pineapple

R491, I wasn’t trying to argue with you personally, just respond to what you mentioned. I’m glad you posted it.

By biological definition, if you can become pregnant, you are a woman because you have gone through menarche. Legal age is a completely different thing. So, pregnant women is completely correct. No man in the entire history of human existence has ever become pregnant or given birth. Not once.

R492 At least surgeons are getting a lot of practice with mastectomies so that when is performed for a woman at actual risk of dying of breast cancer they will do a good job.

Making lemonade out of lemons.

Also a lot of these girls will then want implants in another 5-10 years and will be a big boon for Allergan/Mentor and plastic surgeons.

[quote]people born with XX chromosomes can have all sorts of issues where they don't present as women at all and of course, that invalidates trans men and nonbinary XX people and gender isn't chromosomes either, in this line of thinking. This the problem with this entire discourse- it isn't scientifically provable because there is no way to disprove it because everything that disproves it can also be seen as proving it.

Completely flawed argument. You can't say that because there are rare cases of 12 fingered people, we can no longer assume that humans have 10 fingers. Anything other than ten fingers is an abnormality. Birth defects don't invalidate/negate the norm for 99.99999999999999999999999999% of humans.

Rarest among the rare, but if you count all XY individuals as men, that isn’t actually true. The way people develop isn’t always strictly along XX XY; it just very predominantly is, enough to make policy decisions based off that and then tweak from there. It’s not common enough to require specialists in schools to spot it, although there should be people actively promoting healthy behaviors like exercise and discouraging bullying…The idea that there are infinite sexes but no such thing as biological sex is still misleading; there are infinite ways to live and be AS your biological self. It’s just the way you were born, stereotypical or not.

R499 These very rare cases don't apply to anything involving straight middle aged male cross dressers and emotionally disturbed teen girls cutting their breasts off.

Careful with that "the norm" logic r498. They will gladly throw out the fact that heterosexuality is "the norm" because it's the majority, also, but that doesn't mean being gay is abnormal. Ergo, being trans isn't abnormal.

Yes. That retarded-ass argument has been, and likely will be, made. Repeatedly.

I have seen it. -_-

R500, that’s true but I think the GLB community and trans community are still related through a group that has differences of sexual development that are more common and less likely to be diagnosed as such. For example, mild androgen insensitivity, as opposed to complete and partial androgen insensitivity, is not universally recognized as an intersex disorder- it’s characterized by unambiguously male genitalia but a biological inability to fully respond to testosterone. So guys like that might act really femme; they might get criticism in the gay community for perpetuating a stereotype. But they aren’t doing anything but being themselves; no one should be hating them. Division within the gay community could be driving people towards unnecessary surgery or support in the trans community. It’s not about being born a woman in a man’s body, it’s about being bullied for how you were born. Girls who are different and suffer from depression would probably benefit a lot from socializing with other girls like them - they’re suffering from isolation and that’s a need trans support groups fill. There don’t need to really be trans support groups that favor hormones to fit that need. Transgender doesn’t need to mean on the road to surgical alteration or even denial of biological sex- just having a desire to adopt mannerisms associated with the opposite sex. In other words, the girl can wear clothing that doesn’t push her breasts up if that makes her feel comfortable, and it’s fine.

Gays and lesbians have nothing to do with straight male cross dressers with fetishes, who cannot get off sexually unless wearing their daughters' soiled panties.

I refuse to be lumped in with these creepy guys.

Yeah I am cool and fine with gay men who do drag.

Straight guys in school girl uniforms however : 🤮

[quote]Completely flawed argument.

R498, what part of the detailed assertion and the equally detailed rebuttal that you quoted in full are you calling flawed?

R505, all of that doesn’t explain why anyone needs hormones or surgery. There is genetic diversity. Why does the fact that there is genetic diversity mean people need surgery?

R506 I literally said it doesn't in this part that directly contradicts that assertion and that you also lumped in as "completely flawed":

[quote]This the problem with this entire discourse.

Learn to read AND quote.

Au contraire, R506, there is very little "genetic diversity" that is compatible with life.

I spent my first year residency at UCLA, a quaternary plus care center. We treated kids with very rare syndromes that were brought to UCLA from neighboring states. I had one syndromic kid that was extremely hypotonic (floppy baby)and there were only about 30 cases recorded in the medical literature. Supportive care was provided then death ensued.

Nature does not favor congenital defects or as you call it "diversity".

In fact trisomy 21 is one of the only trisomies that is compatible with life - only after heart surgery for endocardial cushion defects that they all are born with. However all Downs adults who received life-saving cardiac surgery succumb to rapidly progressing Alzheimers in their 40s. Thus goes "genetic diversity".

R508, there is genetic diversity in the sense that all human beings are different. My point is, no one needs surgery to change. The phrase “infinite sexes” should instead be “infinite ways to individually be human”. Having a pronoun or a sex part doesn’t change anything that doesn’t directly relate to to sex. You can be any kind of woman, any kind of man.

R509, yes. Someone who doesn’t fulfill a judgmental society’s gender stereotype isn’t flawed. They are not a mistake—they do not need to relabel themselves; they do not need surgery. They are fine just as they are, and need to be told that.

There aren't infinite sexes. There are two and some people with genetic issues that makes them intersex. Most of them are infertile, which is a big indicator right there that there aren't infinite sexes, just biology not always working quite right.

I knew a woman with Turner Syndrome--lovely person, odd-looking and infertile (0X chromosome--female is the default sex, when it comes to biology). The trans movement has nothing to with people like her who suffer from the issues of intersex conditions. And they actually have very different agendas. Trans people want surgery and hormones; Intersex people want to *not* be operated on without permission. They want to be accepted as they are, not force people to accept them as something they're biologically not.

No one's ever convinced me that there's any sort of hardwired "gender construct" of mind that trumps the realities of the human body. A lot of trans ideology strikes as akin to religious beliefs--and I'm too much of an atheist to believe something without evidence.

[quote]There aren't infinite sexes. There are two and some people with genetic issues that makes them intersex. Most of them are infertile, which is a big indicator right there that there aren't infinite sexes, just biology not always working quite right.

The Caster Semenya case is regularly brought up as are other African athletes with a specific genetic code and the decision to ban them from CERTAIN women's events does raise ethical questions, as did the suggestion that Semenya should be allowed to compete against women if medicated.

And there's a certain type of racist who compares Semenya to Serena and Venus, who sees dark skinned black muscular and athletic women as male.

R512, Caster is a biological male. Absurd that the media tiptoed around this fact and now people think he is a female with genetic issues.

R12, it’s not quite that simple…the amount of testosterone you make versus the amount you can use are not the same in androgen insensitivity disorder. So even if Caster makes an amount of testosterone of an average male, that doesn’t mean it could be used in the body; for people with complete AIS it can’t be used at all and might as well not be there. Caster must have at least partial AIS in order to have undescended testes.

R513, but what is biology? It’s ever changing, that’s why we have evolution. It’s a social construct based on a bunch of cells. Who are you to decide what is a biological male and what isn’t?

Back to swimming, can we celebrate the lovely Ben Proud who became world champion yesterday in the 50m freestyle.

He's got bigger tits than Lia Thomas will ever have.

R515, biology isn’t a social construct; and Caster is intersex, not male. The way we talk about biology is social, not biology itself. The doctors performing open heart surgery aren’t using theory and words. Actual body parts exist. The mind determines how you are as a person and what you like. Nothing about who you are as a person or what you like is objectively either male or female. The only thing that is objectively male or female or intersex is your sex parts. They actually really exist, and would exist as the same biologically real parts regardless of what time and place you were born. That does not mean you can’t be a feminine male or a masculine female, because stereotypical femininity or masculinity are social constructs and aren’t objectively real. Since they are stereotypes, saying you are a man because you feel male is bigoted; you’re reinforcing a stereotype of what a woman can’t be and claiming you can’t be who you are as a woman. That reduces women’s rights. The strong women of the world are taking hormones and saying they are men.

Caster is a biological XY male.

R518, it really isn’t that simple. Intersex is intersex. No one with partial AIS/undescended testes is capable of fully using the testosterone made in their body so serum testosterone is misleading; AIS is a mutation of the androgen receptor and can be confirmed with genetic testing. XY in an extreme rare case can even menstruate and give birth; while there are also rare XX men, as in called boys at birth because they have penises. Intersex conditions are rare, but Caster does have one.

“This article examines the studies on the pregnancies of true hermaphrodites and self-fertilization in hermaphrodite mammals that have been published in the last 40 years. The number of hermaphrodite pregnants reported in the literature since 1975 was 14, the number of pregnancies was 26 and the number of healthy born babies was 20. All of the babies that were born were male. The pregnancy developed following gonadectomy in seven cases (nine pregnancies). In some cases, either gonadectomy was not performed at all or it was performed after pregnancy (eight cases, 17 pregnancies). The karyotype was 46,XX in four of these eight cases that became pregnant despite in situ ovotestis while it was 46,XX/46,XY in the other four cases (chimera). In the literature, pregnancy cases that developed through self-fertilization were not reported in humans. However, autofertilization was detected in mammalian hermaphrodites such as domestic rabbit. [corrected]. Furthermore, the ovarian tissues of true hermaphrodites were mainly functional and ovulatory. The testicular tissues were mainly immature. However, spermatogenesis was determined in some cases. In fact, both ovulation and spermatogenesis were detected in some cases. All of these findings show that true hermaphrodites with ovarian and testicular tissues are potentially autofertile.“

Also, not only do rare true hermaphrodites exist, they may even have the potential of getting themselves pregnant. Cases in rabbits have been observed…it would explain a virgin birth.

For the final time, Caster is XY, male with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. He had plenty of testosterone coursing through his body during puberty as it was PARTIAL.

Caster has nothing to do with male cross dressers, all XYs, like Lia, who fail at men's sports and then cosplay a woman to win medals they don't deserve.

R521, you sound angry and defensive. Since sports is supposed to be about good feelings and community, don’t you realize the way you are talking about this is helping you lose your case? People associate being angry and defensive with being wrong. I don’t agree with the idea of chemical transition in general or the encouragement of people thinking identifying as transgender means that they literally are what they identify as. Even people who want to dress and live as the opposite sex should, in my opinion, be encouraged to have an intellectual awareness that they are not, in fact, the opposite sex. The idea of trans women being angry that lesbians aren’t attracted to them or trans men being angry that gay men aren’t attracted them is sad for them too, because they actually spent years of their lives and got medical treatments believing the world around them would be different than it is. They are encouraged routinely to think that anyone who says otherwise is not only wrong but hateful. And it doesn’t help that a huge percentage of the people telling them they are wrong actually are being hateful. And it doesn’t help that prominent women in sports are saying things like (women’s) sports don’t matter much in life. Women’s sports should matter, as the country slides further into obesity. And contact sports like rugby or boxing that would exclude many top woman for safety reasons alone if they allowed open competition. It doesn’t mean trans women can’t box; they should box other trans women. Or if there aren’t enough trans women for a competition, then maybe Lia could swim and get a medal but get a T next to her name, and gold, silver and bronze would still be handed out separately; or Caster could get an I next to her name. There would eventually be records set and broken just for intersex people and just for trans people. I’m saying that even though I don’t think the science behind medical transition is accurate, since it labels stereotypes as being the true indication of biological sex. Even though the Democratic Party currently supports it, it’s actually a reactionary idea and the opposite of what the same party used to support 20 years ago.

Caster is a XY male with androgen issues. His genitals didn’t develop in the womb properly therefore he had the internal testes and the malformed genitals at birth. He has no womb or ovaries and his testosterone is at male levels.

Show me a 3rd gamete and we will talk about a third sex.

R524, I don’t know about a third gamete but there is a third gonad; it’s called ovotestis. This isn’t really relevant to whether people should be brought up believing that biological sex consists of a mental stereotype and that hormonal and physical alteration of the body should be encouraged. It isn’t the body that’s a social construct. I don’t think trans medicalization is helpful to anyone, including gender-bending people themselves, and I don’t want to encourage anyone to alter his or her body. So for that reason I’d rather not see trans women in women’s sports or locker rooms; it’s not going to be ok to do those things without body alterations, and allowing them encourages body alterations.

R521 Damn right I am angry. My sister went to college on an athletic scholarship. I can't imagine if some creep male cross dresser started competing against her and she would have lost her scholarship.

Woman don't deserve to be trashed by fetishistic cross dressers.

You are full of tranny verbal diarrhea. Go away. Go back to your reddit tranny sites. Leave us alone.

Also R521 you have a short posting history, most of your posts are nonsensical pseudoscientific blather defending men competing against women in sports.

We know what you are. Be gone.

R527, clearly you haven’t read any of my posts. I suggest you put me on ignore and then read what I actually wrote, as ignored poster number whatever. None of it supports the modern trans movement. It also opposes the right wing hate movement, which I do believe includes you. Your own hate is preventing you from achieving anything you actually want to achieve in your criticism of the trans movement. It blinds people from actually listening to you.

Oh you are a piece of work you idiot R528. LOL. Since we don't want men fucking up women's sports we are hateful and right wing. Right, you blathering fool.

R529, you’re hopeless. You’re never going to have sports again at all, just destroy the whole world because you have no idea how to talk to people. If you think the way to have trans people out of women’s sports is to just ban them by force, you have no idea how divided the country is or how emotionally invested in this issue people are. Nothing good was ever achieved by force and you can’t make people believe something they don’t believe; they will hate you for it. If you want a peaceful society you have to convince people. Clearly I won’t convince you, but maybe someone else is reading this. Don’t get high blood pressure from all the rage.

Tranny women are not banned from sport. They just have to play against other men.

Do the transtapo believers also believe there should be no age limits on sports? Should adults who feel like twelve year olds be allowed to knock the shit out of actual twelve year olds on the peewee football field? If not, why not? I mean, if there's no biological reality to sex, then there's also no biological reality to sexual development. So many adolescents will be so glad to hear that puberty is make-believe and all in their heads.

^^And here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, here we go round the mulberry bush with transgender logic^^

[Quote]Biology is like gravity: it’s there whether you believe in it or not.

Translunacy reply: yeah, well that's just like, uh, your opinion, man

R532, you’re right that the argument that there’s no such thing as biological sex is absurd. It’s absurd AND it encourages sexist stereotypes. Many people know this. But we are a decade into this. Everyone has a friend who took hormones, a friend of a friend; someone who altered themselves physically and is in deep. They view it as bigotry and hate speech if you oppose it; they are vehement; they act like religious people defending the idea that heaven exists above the clouds. The only thing that will dismantle this unhealthy body changing movement in a way that is healthy for society is if the people who transitioned under a genuine belief that stereotype equals sex come to understand the truth about themselves, and for society to stop having such horrible stereotypes about gender that belittle women and place excess pressure on men. And some institution not associated with the far right should fund an objective study so that the study isn’t tainted by affiliations with hate groups. People under 40 don’t understand why Democrats above 40 oppose the trans movement; there are valid reasons and older Democrats need to start speaking up loudly. And trans people should listen because they are being hurt by their own movement. The surgery doesn’t help them. There were gender benders long before there were people who thought they were the opposite sex, literally. They cross dressed and did not commit suicide. They did not place great emphasis on pronouns.

[quote] You are all arguing with me

I'm not, R491, because I don't know who you are.

You need to sign your posts if you're a masochist and want the Dataloungers to attack you.

“ Nothing good was ever achieved by force and you can’t make people believe something they don’t believe; they will hate you for”

Which is the problem we have with them. We don’t want to be forced to deny the reality of biological sex.

[quote]People under 40 don’t understand why Democrats above 40 oppose the trans movement

Don't you put that evil on me. ⛔

I'm under 40, and I'm trying to figure out why the hizz-ell many Democrats, if not most, are so averse to common sense with regards to this matter.

We are either the party of truth, reality, and science or we're not. You can't pick and choose. The Repugs are the hypocrites. The transtapo and their parasitically attaching themselves to the gay rights movement is turning the Democrats into a party of hypocrites as the less informed among them just go along with the transtapo's bullshit, fully believing they are still supporting the gay community like they have for decades. We, the gay community, need to make it clear that the transtapo is not part of us. They never have been. Never will be. They are antigay and pro-conversion therapy. Fuck them.

[quote]Oh you are a piece of work you idiot [R528]. LOL. Since we don't want men fucking up women's sports we are hateful and right wing. Right, you blathering fool.

That’s because you are the right wing anti-trans troll. Deny it all you want, you ain’t fooling anyone.

r539 Can you explain this and provide your thoughts?

And honestly, I desperately tried to find a left-leaning news source that had reported or even fact-checked it, but, strangely, had a rather fruitless experience.

This is just right-wing propaganda, right? They're misreading it or something, yes? I'm genuinely asking because, if not, this is part of the problem we're talking about. And no, one doesn't have to be right-wing to take this position.

Drop the T.

Do it now. Do it loudly.

Chop the T off!

Tom Daley has spoken!

When told about male athletes being stopped from competing in women's races he replied “I was furious. You know, like most queer people, anyone that’s told that they can’t compete or can’t do something they love just because of who they are, it’s not on. It’s something I feel really strongly about. Giving trans people the chance to share their side.”

Shouldn’t you be out getting murdered, R453?

Can you swim with a dilator in?

I don't care. I don't care about Trans swimming. I don't care about Women's swimming or Men's swimming or some third category of swimming. Do Not Care.

When was the last fucking time any of you - ANY OF YOU - thought to yourself, "Oh hey, self, there's a terribly exciting swim meet that I deeply care about and simply must watch today!"

Nobody cares about this except people with too much time on their hands and a fair bit of hysteria in their heads.

[quote]I don't care. I don't care about Trans swimming. I don't care about Women's swimming or Men's swimming or some third category of swimming. Do Not Care. When was the last fucking time any of you - ANY OF YOU - thought to yourself, "Oh hey, self, there's a terribly exciting swim meet that I deeply care about and simply must watch today!" Nobody cares about this except people with too much time on their hands and a fair bit of hysteria in their heads.

Well the world swimming championships have just come to an end. Wimbledon starts tomorrow. The World Athletics Championships start in a couple of weeks, delayed from last year, and the Commonwealth Games start as well. Then later this year there's the men's football world cup. Wi

Sport is universally popular. Just because you don't enjoy it and don't appreciate what the athletes do doesn't mean no one else does.

CUNT.

Many many people "care" that women and gays are being erased. Sports are important and big pharna driving a sick agenda is concerning.

Tom should only open his mouth to suck dicks.

Tom has a small circular mouth. It's his least attractive asset.

Of course Tommy supports trans-women invading and dominating 'women's' swimming. Why should he care if it fucks women over? He doesn't suffer the consequences. Only female swimmers do.

R551, yeah, he's likely chosen to have an all-male family. No female children for him.

Doesn't Tom realise that transwomen can still compete? They can compete with their peers - men. Of course, they will never qualify to do so, but anyway. They are not being excluded from competing, just excluded from cheating.

[quote]They can compete with their peers - men. Of course, they will never qualify to do so, but anyway. They are not being excluded from competing

Yes they are being excluded from competing. You just said yourself they can’t qualify to compete with men. And if they can’t compete with women then they can’t compete at all. How would you like it if someone told you you can’t do something you’ve trained for all your life? It’s not on!

Transwomen could still compete in male diving. If Tom, or some younger diver, trans-ed himself tomorrow, he'd still be competitive. What would wearing a woman's bathing suit and having long hair affect in a diving competition as long as you retain your male body, which all these autogynephiles do.

R554. Are you really as stupid as your comment suggests? If they can't qualify to swim with the men, it's because they suck at swimming, so they deserve to get cut from the team.

Should mediocre professional baseball players be allowed "identify" as children so they can play little league and become all stars?

[quote]You just said yourself they can’t qualify to compete with men. And if they can’t compete with women then they can’t compete at all.

R554, you are most definitely retarded.

Because with estrogen your body is different. It would be unfair for Tom to still compete in male diving since she would have the gracefulness of a woman.

If they can't qualify in their biological category, then they shouldn't be competing at all. Women aren't just men with lower testosterone.

[quote]How would you like it if someone told you you can’t do something you’ve trained for all your life? It’s not on!

How do you think the female swimmers feel?

I'm crap at all sport. Does that mean I should be allowed to compete in the Special Olympics, just because those are the only athletes I would qualify against?

The female swimmers should have trained harder if they wanted it enough like Lia did.

R558 is definitely a troll. No one can be that stupid.

^Ditto R561. Fuck off, loser.

[quote]I don't care. I don't care about Trans swimming. I don't care about Women's swimming or Men's swimming or some third category of swimming. Do Not Care. When was the last fucking time any of you - ANY OF YOU - thought to yourself, "Oh hey, self, there's a terribly exciting swim meet that I deeply care about and simply must watch today!"

This is exactly what Megan Raipone said. She said these sports don’t matter. Only trans lives do. Who cares if some girl doesn’t get to play high school volleyball or get a scholarship? There are much bigger issues at large that are much more important like abortion rights.

[quote]Who cares if some girl doesn’t get to play high school volleyball or get a scholarship?

We do. Trans lives do not matter to us.

R564, “who cares if some girl . . .” That’s kind of the whole problem right there, isn’t it? It’s just girls, so who cares?

"trans lives" are fellow humans with gender dysphoria, or with autogynephila. That does not mean the rest of us have to be forced to pretend they are a different sex than they are, or pretend that they magically transform as soon as they decide they are trans.

I don't have an issue with being polite and humoring someone of adult age with obvious mental issues by referring to them as the gender they prefer (as long as it is not stupid "they/them" or custom pronouns). But that is my choice. That politeness does not extend to taking rights away from others. I feel the same way about trans lives as I do about other fellow human lives, in that they do matter, but they do not become a priority over other humans simply by self-identifying into a minority.

No one is stopping them from playing on teams of their same sex, or starting a team with just trans people. Claiming to be trans, even going on female hormones, does not suddenly stop one from being a man and having the physical benefits of a man. Pretending only goes so far. When it is interfering with biological reality, reality should always win.

I'm not sure how Tom could have answered that question without incurring the wrath of Big Trans - he was bound to get it asked by some reporter sooner or later. I wish he wasn't so much of a coward, though, if he does have actual opinions about it that go against the mainstream, but not everyone is cut out to be a leader.

It's funny that swimming is one of the main sports dealing with this since it's pretty much the one sport where these assholes can't hide their bulge. Bet that gives them a little thrill.

Lia Thomas has no bulge at all. Look at the pictures.

R534, I agree with a lot of what you have to say... BUT FOR THE LOVE OF GOD USE PARAGRAPHS!

I do think we need to try and reason with the "transwomen are women" crown. We all know they aren't. They know they aren't. Biology knows they aren't. A child knows they aren't. Mars knows they aren't. Still, yelling and screaming and calling them morons, even if they are, isn't going to get us anywhere.

We need to use logic and reason, calmly and rationally, over and over, until it sinks in. The Lia Thomas' of the world will sure help us! He is so clearly a man. Even liberals who were pretty pro trans athletes changed their mind after that.

It will right itself. And we'll go back to the tiny percentage of actual transgendered people, with true gender dysmorphia, having our support and sympathy and good will.

But no transwomen in bio sports or in bio prisons or bio women's shelters. (Well, the latter two should be okay if the trans person is snipped. But we can thoughtfully and fairly debate that.)

The AGP sect can enjoy their fetish however they see fit. No problem. Adults can do whatever they want in that resect as far as I'm concerned. But no extra rights or privileges than a furry, a bear, or a leather daddy might get. Real trans? For sure. But not autogynephiles.

And let's just go ahead and leave kids alone until they're old enough to make their own decision. If a boy wants to wear a dress? Cool. But no puberty blockers. Sheesh.

[quote]I'm not sure how Tom could have answered that question without incurring the wrath of Big Trans - he was bound to get it asked by some reporter sooner or later. I wish he wasn't so much of a coward, though, if he does have actual opinions about it that go against the mainstream, but not everyone is cut out to be a leader.

He made the comments at the LGBT awards ceremony. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd had a drink or two when he spoke to gossipy queen Benjamin Butterworth, famous his dramatic gasp and for once identifying as black so he could attend a conference as the BAME delegate.

Daley is very experienced with media and the comments came across as clumsy and I'm sure he will clarify his position at some point. He has appointed himself as a leader of the LGBTQIA+ community so he's now expected to show leadership.

If Daley isn't happy with FINA's position, Daley could have used his influence to speak out before or immediately after, to work with a trans sports org to make an Instagram video on why inclusion is fair and why Martina. Chrissie Evert, Sharron Davies etc are wrong.

Did Daley actually say that publicly, on camera, or did he just say it to that little pipsqueak Benjamin Butterworth? If he only made those comments to Butterworth, then Daley is being doubly duplicitous - he feels, as a young "queer" media celebrity that he has to be seen to be sticking up for the trannies, but he's either not brave enough to speak out publicly against the FINA policy or he knows deep down that men in women's sports is bullshit.

Butterworth's shocked gasp at the suggestion that no one is born in the wrong body, in r572's link is both hilarious and depressing. What a fucking lunatic. This is the bullshit thinking that is trying to take over society.

R573 he made the remarks to Butterworth because Butterworth asked him about it directly, since that's what he is obsessed with. Daley knew it would be reported, and Butterworth is a known reporter he's talked to before. Tom isn't some newbie who doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut.

And yes, Tom COULD have done a lot more to come out against the FINA decision, but he didn't. Not sure what point you are going for there.

There's no way if he took anything other than the approved stance on the issue that he wouldn't be attacked for being a TERF, regardless of what he's done up to this point, and he likely knows that. But unlike his terrible taste in clothing, he isn't willing to risk his career for being forthright, assuming he actually agrees with FINA.

Has Lia had bottom surgery? If not, the bulge is still there, just tucked away.

Of course, he didn't have bottom surgery. He is running a con. He is not trans. He only started to take hormones when he started competing with women in swimming. He is just a narcissist asshole. Less than 2% have bottom surgery and that is both men and women. most men get bolt-ons and take hormones but don't get the surgery because of the terrible outcomes.

I have a question. Why is it wrong to be in blackface but not wrong to be in womanface.

[quote] You just said yourself they can’t qualify to compete with men. And if they can’t compete with women then they can’t compete at all. How would you like it if someone told you you can’t do something you’ve trained for all your life?

LMAO!! Seriously? Did you read what you wrote?

Muriel, can we have an IQ test here please.

LMAO yeah, I didn't follow that at all.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

You know a skateboard can be a dangerous weapon. Responsible for quite a few killings in the US.

Just saying.

Expect to see that skateboard girl and her parents at the next Ron DeSantis executive order.

So, basically, you have these loser guys who figure that if they say they're trans they can win in an easier playing field. And their enablers think that they're such special snowflakes that the rights of those inferior women simply don't matter.

There's so much underlying misogyny in the trans movement that it's kind of remarkable--it's notable that they spend their energy bullying women while ignoring the old white guys who actually push through the laws against them. They desperately, desperately need to feel superior to biological women and to erase some hard biological truths by belittling them.

[quote]So, basically, you have these loser guys who figure that if they say they're trans they can win in an easier playing field. And their enablers think that they're such special snowflakes that the rights of those inferior women simply don't matter.

In the case of British Cycling I'm sure there are a lot of coaches and managers who would be thrilled at the prospect of replacing one of the female squad members with a superior male athlete like Emily Bridges and not have to worry about pregnancy and menstrual cycles affecting performances,

There's been historic bullying claims made by female cyclists and a "win at all costs" culture. Britain's all time most successful Olympian Laura Kenny took time out to have a baby. Elinor Barker, an Olympic champion, is only recently returning to competition after having a baby and is part of the Commonwealth Games squad for Wales, the team Bridges had been aiming to be part of.

More and more women are choosing to have children during their careers and not waiting until they've retired.

[quote]Britain's all time most successful Olympian Laura Kenny took time out to have a baby. Elinor Barker, an Olympic champion, is only recently returning to competition after having a baby. More and more women are choosing to have children during their careers and not waiting until they've retired.

And that’s why having transwomen on the team is better. They won’t fall pregnant and create all these interruptions with their family dramas. A team doesn’t need someone who will disappear for 9 months at a time. How could you build team morale like that?

R584, They don't disappear for nine months at a time. Athletes can and do train through much of pregnancy.

You want a team that's not encumbered by reproductive cycles, coach men. Want transpeople to compete? Have them compete in open competitions--they do exist.

[quote]Have them compete in open competitions--they do exist.

Name one.

Some countries head straight to the Saudi example (US Roe v Wade); some are taking a more leisurely route (see the trans agenda).

Stay home ladies - we need white babies! And you POC know you never did give a fuck in the first place.

*We never did give a fuck...

Most mens competitions are considered open competitions R586.

The 29 year old transgender woman skater also beat a 12 year old, 16 year old and a 10 year old, all girls.

There's something truly pathetic about a 29-year-old competing with kids and young teens.

A 29 yo MAN competing with pre-teen and teenage GIRLS.

"FINA ruling on transwomen ends 20-year fantasy that sex is not real"

The Guardian's Jonathan Liew has written a scathing article about women wanting female only sports.

The main anger is directed at Britain's awful sports minister Nadine Dorries but the article is just a rehash of his 2019 opinion piece where he claimed it would be inspiration for trans kids if female athletes never won anything ever again.

He doesn't feel able to quote any of the female athletes who have spoken out and uses the argument that trans people have mental health problems.

A men's rights activist.

R593, Mr. Liew sounded like he was trying to give a fair view; perhaps because most of the anti-trans arguments are posted by people who are actually evangelical and far right, he believes the following statement: “Of course, the real fallacy is that sport – this wonderful, organic, mercurial, unpredictable thing – can be reduced to a simple bodily function, that women are nothing more than a pile of cells and chemicals. You put x body in, you get y result out.” The evangelists who oppose the anti-trans movement not only believe that women are women, they believe that women should behave like their own stereotype of women. The trans movement is not nearly as restrictive and regressive as the evangelist far right. They are not trying to force people into gender roles. But the suppression of journalism on the left-progressive side has let the trans movement’s endorsement of stereotypes go completely unnoticed and unquestioned. No one on the left believes “you put x body in, you get y result out” and that’s what the fight against racism is about, but if a person of color meets a stereotype of an average white person, you don’t say, oh, that person is white or identifies as white. You say that they can be whatever they want and that the parts they were born with don’t dictate what they can be. Any kind of human with any kind of hobbies and any kind of dress style can be physically male. And leaving stereotypes aside, being physically male is the only thing that being male even means. Endorsing that there’s a mental way to be male is endorsing a stereotype.

I'm just confused. Sports has been divided into categories for a long time, even before females were allowed to do sports. Professionals vs amateurs; age groups; weight classes for boxing and such.

The deal is transsexuals don't want to be transsexuals. They want to actually be women? Like, exactly? Without having the bottom surgery? Huh??? They're fucking con artists. And/or insane. Probably both.

[quote][R593], Mr. Liew sounded like he was trying to give a fair view; perhaps because most of the anti-trans arguments are posted by people who are actually evangelical and far right, he believes the following statement: “Of course, the real fallacy is that sport – this wonderful, organic, mercurial, unpredictable thing – can be reduced to a simple bodily function, that women are nothing more than a pile of cells and chemicals. You put x body in, you get y result out.”

No, Liew wasn't trying to be fair. He is peddling the same evangelical dogma as many on the far right, that women/females don't deserve their own rights.

It's why he didn't mention female athletes and the impact opening up women's sports to males would have on them as individuals.

There are only three realistic arguments to make about the inclusion of male trans women in female sports:

1. Sport remains segregated by sex - male and female categories with special consideration given to people who are intersex

2. Sport becomes segregated by gender identity - male athletes who say they are women get to compete in women's sports and take the places of female athletes

3. Sport scraps sex segregated categories and introduces height/weight ones. 100m people over 6ft tall and under 6ft tall. No female will ever win again.

R594, sports is actually about physical competition, that's not a "fallacy." It's not about anyone's feelings. It's about winning. I do not know what Mr. Liew is hallucinating about.

R594=dilator!

[quote] “Of course, the real fallacy is that sport – this wonderful, organic, mercurial, unpredictable thing – can be reduced to a simple bodily function, that women are nothing more than a pile of cells and chemicals. You put x body in, you get y result out.”

That's exactly what it is. That's why we have the Paralympics, you idiot. That's why you don't see a paraplegic beating Ricci AND/OR Tris at skateboard.

R594 if your use of "anti-trans" in your post didn't give you away, the claim that "most of the anti-trans people are far right" did. Not only is this a very American viewpoint, it's also just wrong.