Last two episodes of this season of Stranger Things will equal 3 hours 45 minutes

So? It's a TV series, not a movie.

I feel like Eleven is going to join the dark side

Having your brother be a vile hussy who tries to steal your boyfriend will do that to a girl r2

I don’t get why people are so upset about the episodes’ length. Just pretend they’re four eps @ 55 mins each.

I still can't figure out why people like this series so much when it's bloated and ripping everything off.

I personally love the longer episodes. I think the fact that there was such a time gap between seasons because of the pandemic made me really miss it.

I’d personally prefer more episodes rather than longer episodes as I rarely have the time to sit down to watch movie length stuff. BUT, this season has been brilliant (only up to ep 7), so the more the better.

Everyone needs to stop whining about the lengths of these episodes. Just watch them and enjoy.

Will Noah come out when Will comes out?

R2 Would also join the dark side if Jamie Campbell Bower asked me to. But I think she won't.

I loved this show, but have lost interest this season so far. It lost a little bit of it’s magic by expanding so far out of its original setting.

The show has lost some of its mystery, but that's normal as these sort of shows progress. I've enjoyed this session anyway.

Also, poor Barb.

I love this show! But I want less of it! -- is a complaint I've never understood.

"This was a great show but it should have been 9 or 10 episodes instead of 13" ...I don't understand why you watch.

As for the length of Stranger Things episodes...It's not like it's on broadcast TV in the 60s and you can only watch it on the night it's broadcast. You can watch it when it premieres, you can watch it later, you can watch 30 minutes of it at a time, you can watch all of it at once. You're bitching about nothing.

"Ripping everything off" That's the point, it is an 80s movie homage with a modern gaze. For example suddenly people are actually gay in text.

I stayed up till 3 to watch this (I know, embarrassing, no life, etc) and I found the second half to be a lot stronger than the first half. I laughed and cried. This season seems a lot funnier than the others while also being the darkest one yet.

I won’t go into spoilers because I know most haven’t watched it, but I have a lot of theories on Season 5

Interesting, R15. I felt the second half was not as strong. They tried to be bold, but it fell flat for me, and there was just too much slow mo melodrama. Likewise, I won’t comment on specific plot points for the same reason, but I left…underwhelmed.

R16 I think I know the specific plot point you are talking about it, and yeah, I get it. It seems like they are hesitant of Going There which is annoying.

SPOILER

The defeating Vecna fight was like something from a bad anime

[quote] Will: Mike. only you as the heart of our group can save her!

[quote] Mike: Eleven I love you

[quote] Eleven gains the power to win as Kate Bush plays

R18 LMAO! Yeah, that was weird. All of the Mileven felt especially forced this season. I thought the “real” love story was between Eleven and Max, and their friendship.

Meh - it's a series. What difference whether it's 2 episodes for 3:45 or 4 episodes. Frankly, 2 longer episodes would probably be better organized if they really decided to go that way instead of 3 or 4 episodes.

r19 I always hate inability to say I love you as a plotline its very soap operaish and not something I've ever come across in real life. Plus all they've done for the last 2 seasons is argue and breakup, and Finn Wolfhard seems so completely checked out of this show nowadays any emotional scenes he does with Millie (or Noah) feel flat.

The producers grew the cast so much that the original actors are barely needed.

Also Will still hasn't said yeah I'm gay. Which wouldn't bother me given the amount of subtext they've thrown at him but that's apparently too subtle for some of the retards out there who can still pretend he's straight.

Yeah, he’s gay. We all knew, but Jonathan was basically telling him he was safe to come out to and Will’s emotional speech to Mike in the car that was so obvious. So people really can’t pretend anymore

Fuck this show. This was as close as we got to Will coming out and he didn't even.

Is this the official thread for the backend of the season?

If it happens I'll fully support Wills descent into villainy in s5. Fuck Mike Wheeler Will deserves better.

Eddie's stunt double was a gay twink

Matthew Modine still has that great head of hair...now silver. Looks good.

R29 Was that the main character death that was lauded?

R30 No

Although I wish they would have wrapped a bow on the whole Steve/Nancy/Jonathan triangle, I think it’s obvious Nancy will choose neither of them and do her own thing of pursuing her career in journalism. I think Jonathan will live a low key drifter life, while Steve wants six kids and to live in Hawkins his whole life. She recoiled at Steve’s family daydream when he said he saw her in it, and she’s clearly over Jonathan.

Matthew Modine has morphed into Gerry Spence.

[quote] And now, with the new episodes dropping today, the question remains: Will Byers gay yet? The answer: a definitive “kinda.”

What is going on with Will? Is he gay yet?

Netflix really took the whole "don't say gay" thing to heart

Does this mean season five is going to be twice as long?

r34 This scene, and the scene with Mike are the only times its brought up. Its about as strong as they can possibly make it in subtext but he's not actually said it yet. The Mike scene is a bit shit but this one with Jonathan is pretty nice since he pretty much said what Will needed to hear.

So Jonathan came out to Will?

r38 You mean Will comes out to Jonathan or are you stoned as shit? Jonathan knows Will is gay. He was telling him its OK to be different even back in s2. In s4 he watched Will essentially confess his feelings to Mike under the guise of helping Mike and Eleven, then break down in tears and have Mike ignore him. Later that day he tells Will he can tell him anything and he'll always love him no matter what. They both quite clearly know what he means. Will just can't get the words out yet.

Hopper was HOT this season. That shirtless scene..yum. I never thought he was attractive in previous seasons

R39 I knew they wouldn't actually let Will be gay. I hate this shitty show. They'd rather introduce a lesbian than make one of the OG characters gay. This is why I refuse to watch the new season. The writers are fucking homophobic hypocrites.

I fucking hate the Kill Your Gays trope. It's about as dumb as the Black Guy Dies First trope that was in just about every horror movie up until the 2010's.

Will deserves to be happy dammit.

[...]

Noah Schnapp (who plays Will) is a terrible actor, devoid of conviction and magnetism.

You dumb fucks. It's the 80s. Pre-teens and teens did not just simply come out in the 80s and then go locking hands on Mulberry Street. The show is maintaining realism you dumb retarded fucks.

He doesn't need to come out to everyone and be loud and proud. He had the perfect opportunity to come out to Jonathan in episode 9 but they blew it.

[quote]What difference whether it's 2 episodes for 3:45 or 4 episodes.

Pacing, gestalt, construction. These qualities aren't irrelevant.

I've always liked this series without being a super-fan who was constantly searching the internet for news about when the next season would be available. Season 4 was my least favorite by some distance. And yeah, the bloated, shapeless episodes have something to do with it. The creators were clearly thinking bigger, splashier, "our most ambitious season yet," but I found the results undisciplined and overpopulated. There were nice moments...within overwrought quarter hours.

R45 But the lesbian came out. Why can't Will?

R43 I bet she will gain some sort of abilities due to the fact she was somehow revived by Eleven (never really explained) and could outwit Vecna’s mind attacks

R45 Well to be fair she came out to Steve and Steve only after coming down from being drugged; and she is still super awkward and cautious about it around everyone else. I think Will is going to have a coming out scene and Mike will learn about Will’s feelings towards him, it’s just taking forever.

The last two episodes were kind of underwhelming. I like max, but I thought it would’ve been a bold choice to kill her and keep her dead. So far, one fan favorite side character is introduced every season and killed (Bob S2, Alexei S3, Eddie S4) it was time for a main character. But not Steve.

At least Jaqen H’gar didn’t die in Russia. I thought he was a goner.

My favorite part was the Will/Jonathan talk that r37 linked. Jonathan was mostly useless this season, but that talk with Will made me hope he survives next season. He’s a good big brother.

Lucas was a terrible actor until the scene with an injured Max. He did real good there. I also liked Jason getting lasered in half. Good stuff.

For all the hype it was quite a let down, if they wouldn’t have been isolated from the others I think it would have been much more satisfying. And way to long, there needed to be a good editor. Why does becoming highly successful and heralded and the need for good editing become such an inverse relationship?

Wow. Closing the season with Siouxsie & The Banshees' Spellbound. Fuck, yeah!

Didn’t they establish in the first season that Will’s father called him a fag?

I thought they announced that one of the five original kids was going to die?

[quote] In s4 he watched Will essentially confess his feelings to Mike under the guise of helping Mike and Eleven, then break down in tears and have Mike ignore him.

That was so hard to watch. It was clear that Will was telling Mike how much he needs (and loves) him, but Mike was only looking for reassurance that him and Eleven still share a strong bond.

I enjoyed it a lot on an emotional level. But I'm not going to pretend I understood what was going on every second. I don't mind admitting I don't always understand the dimentional switches or where people are supposed to be (or I forget) sometimes. Honestly I don't always get where 11 is when she goes there in the sensory deprivation tank.

As for Jonathan, I would have thought more people here would identify with his emotional turmoil and how hard it is for him just to be gay - "different" - never mind to come out. Also for Robin already being out, well, that's a girl. Not as much stigma attached as there is with a male, in society. For one thing, straight women always kissed and hugged, danced with each other, etc. Two women living together - even older - was seen differently than if it was a couple of guys. But anyway a gay teen boy coming out (or not) to his straight friends - maybe some people can no longer identify because they don't know the stigma and shame attached to beiing a gay man in society.

...and nobody seems to remember this was a couple of decades ago.

And Robin’s only out to one person.

I agree that coming out as gay or lesbian in the 80s was very uncommon. A lot of gays and lesbians settled for something we may call "glass closet" where they were out to close friends, part of their chosen family while not out to family, neighbors, bosses and colleagues.

Jonathan and Joyce being supportive of Will being "different" is sort of groundbreaking, borderline controversial, for that era which was all about "what will the neighbors think?????" where families usually put social standing and reputation over one family member's individual right to self-expression. Let's not forget that NY and San Francisco became gay cities, because gays got dishonorably discharged from military (navy, for example) service and were too ashamed and afraid to face their blood relatives in the 60s and 70s and that sort of stigma was still relevant in the 80s.

The Duffer Bros. put a more tolerant spin on this with Mike, and the other friends, not full on rejecting Will or making homophobic jokes behind his back while barely tolerating Will not being interested in girls.

The Duffer Bros. put a more tolerant spin on this with Mike, and the other friends, not full on rejecting Will or making homophobic jokes behind his back while barely tolerating Will not being interested in girls.

I don't think any of his friends know he's gay. Mike sure doesn't. Because it's made obvious to the audience doesn't mean it is to his friends. Young teens are self absorbed with their own emotions, anyway, and in this case they're also trying to save the world. lol

I don't think they'd be very good friends if they were making homophobic remarks behind his back.

Oops, this part was supposed to be in quotes:

[quote]The Duffer Bros. put a more tolerant spin on this with Mike, and the other friends, not full on rejecting Will or making homophobic jokes behind his back while barely tolerating Will not being interested in girls.

Max is one of my favorites and I too wish they were bold enough to actually kill her off. Mike brought up an interesting point, that Eleven/the group aren’t really used to losing. They’ve had to many “disposable” deaths without music impact: Nancy’s friend Barb, Joyce’s boyfriend Bob, Max’s stepbrother Billy, Dustin’s friend Eddie… it would have been interesting to see how they handled the death of someone (Max) who was loved by all the group. Also, Eleven suddenly has the power to revive people? How? That just makes any death in the future cheap.

[quote] I don't think any of his friends know he's gay. Mike sure doesn't.

Oh, Mike knows. He lashed out at Will in an earlier season saying that it's not his fault that Will doesn't like girls.

[quote] Also, Eleven suddenly has the power to revive people? How? That just makes any death in the future cheap.

She did revive Will in season one in the season one finale.

As someone who was out in high school in the 1980s, I’ll add that a lot of gay signifiers just went right over the heads of straight people. I literally used to wear a triangle pin to school and 90% of people didn’t know what it meant.

r64 I don't think that was Mike knowing. Will gets called a fag all the time by his bullies so Mike either lashed out with that because he knew it would hurt him or he was just calling Will a child. Then realises he's essentially stabbed Will in the back and goes to apologise to him.

[quote]Oh, Mike knows. He lashed out at Will in an earlier season saying that it's not his fault that Will doesn't like girls.

Even now these characters are supposed to be only in their mid teens, so how old were they then? 12? I didn't take that remark to mean any real comment on Will's sexual preferences. Maybe in the final season we'll see that it did, I don't know. But originally I just thought it meant Will wasn't into sex at all yet.

*From Mike's equally young point of view.

[quote] Even now these characters are supposed to be only in their mid teens, so how old were they then?

They're 14 in s4 so about 13 in s3.

R68

Season 1: 12 year old 7th graders in Nov 1983 Season 2: 13 year old 8th graders in Oct 1984 Season 3; 14 year old rising freshman in July 1985 Season 4: 15 year old freshman in March 1986

I read on a fan site that the reason they don't have Will coming out directly is because Noah Schnapp doesn't want anybody thinking he might be gay.

r72 Noah Schnapp can't even get them to stop putting him in a bowl cut never mind control the story to the extent of keeping Will in the the closet. Will not saying he's gay is either a problem on the Duffers/Netflix end not wanting an out gay character, or for narrative reasons.

I didn't really understand the cut-straight-across bangs (of Will, Mike, even Jonathan). Was it a mid-80s trend for 15 year old boys that I don't remember? I think someone mentioned that little kid on Eight Is Enough. But that was a *little kid* not a kid in high school.

In Episode 8, 'Papa,' having Eddie Munson wear a 'Michael Myers' mask is an anachronism. Originally, it was a Dan Post mask of Captain Kirk from 'Star Trek', but in the wake of its use in 'Halloween' (1978), it dropped out of existence for some thirty years. From a collector's point of view, it was damn near extinct. In the aughts, they began selling the white 'MM' version of the mask, which is what Munson is seen wearing.

To be accurate and 'period correct,' they probably should have put Munson in the 'Skull' mask from 'Halloween III.'

The clothing in the final episode was offensively ugly. 80’s had bad fashion, but good God nobody would be caught dead in Nancy’s final outfit. And why did El continually wear that hideous getup?

R76 what was strange about El's California outfit was...back in Hawkins she and Max had already gone out shopping and had worn some better-looking, or at least 80s-trendy clothes. And wore makeup. Then, in Lenora Hills or whatever it's called, she's suddenly got the awful hair and nerdy wardrobe.

Hopefully we'll time jump a few years for season 5 and actually have some better fashion.

R77 I think Eleven is laid back and low maintaince. I think her outfits this season were supposed to be a bit more alt and thrown together— she spent most of her life in a hospital gown and Hopper had her dressed like a lumberjack. I think Max is the one that is more into clothes, when she isn’t depressed that is.

Was there alt in 1986?

zzzzzzzzzzzzz.

R48, your an idiot if you don't understand the difference. She is a whole grown woman.

MBB was correct when she said the writers should start killing characters off like Game of Thrones. There are way too many, and the show has gotten bloated. I kept waiting for at least one big death this season, and it never came. Eddie was a new character, and they seemed to have walked back on Max's death.

R83 Jason (new character) also died, as well as Dr, Brenner.

[quote]I kept waiting for at least one big death this season, and it never came.

I'm sorry, what can I do to help?

By the way, whover said Matthew Modine has good hair, it looks like a wig to me. You can see where it's glued on, especially the temples and sideburns.

r79 The costume designer pretty much says she's borrowing Wills clothes

I don't know what it is, but overall, I'm not that impressed with the costume design. I think that, at times, they seem to get it (the period look) and at other times, not at all. I was young then and something about it doesn't really seem accurate.

Dustin was dressed like an Ewok.

The costumer designer is terrible. Nobody mixed prints back then

People mixed prints all the time in the 80s, R89. Even when they shouldn't have. In 1985 there was a trend of shirts that had both paisley and plaid fabrics in the same garment. I distinctly remember a girl in school wearing an oversized yellow paisley shirt with a red plaid collar and pocket. She wasn't the only one either.

Did R89 mean mixed prints in the same garment, or different pieces of clothing?

I loved the remix of Running Up That Hill that was used over the climactic fight. It doesn't work that well as a song, as it strips it lyrically, but adding additional beats, plus violin, and orchestral swells really worked for the scene.

I haven't seen much mention, but the eerie remix of Separate Ways by Journey was incredible as well.

Using Spellbound by Siouxsie & the Banshees over the end credits as well, but I kind of think, considering the visuals of the last scene, that Cities in Dust would have worked as well

Are people really mad that a show set during the AIDS crisis isn’t having a gay boy be out and proud???

Hopper's voice sounded different this season.

I meant Will, not JOnathan...

I liked the use of Metallica's Master Of Puppets, if no one has mentioned that. I didn't completely understand what Eddie playing furiously was really supposed to achieve, though.

I think the noise was supposed to attract the bats, R96. Plus, look cool and stuff.

R97 Oh, yeah, you're right about the bats (or whatever they were). I guess I just didn't understand why that would be a thing. They're very good on this show with getting you to accept the most ridiculous stuff, sometimes. Because it's awesome and you just want to go with it.

On that note, I didn't really get how Eddie's uncle just accepted how Dustin said he died - except the uncle was not a talker. I would think he'd ask - where/when did it happen? How was he helping people? Etc. I mean it was very convenient for Dustin that he didn't even have to try to explain it. Too convenient.

It comes down to "Justice for Barb" where the relatives of the victims of the Upside Down World, or at least those who matter enough to the show and the viewer, get some closure.

Barb was an uptight cow.

I was happy Eddie died, I found his character skeevy and repulsive, and it makes perfect sense the town believed that about him. He wasn’t a sympathetic outsider.

If Noah comes out as Gay half of them will believe it’s some evil entity that invaded him in the down under Hawkins and they’ll rally against him and kill him to keep the evil from spreading.

R100: Did teen girls really dress like Barb back then and if so why did they want to look like 48 year old librarian fraus?

Did the drag queen Asian guidance counselor survive??

I like Max in this season (she annoyed me in her first season) but I think it should end it with her death .

[quote]I read on a fan site that the reason they don't have Will coming out directly is because Noah Schnapp doesn't want anybody thinking he might be gay.

If it came from a fan site, I'm sure it's 100% true!

As someone else pointed out, the show is set in the 80s in a small town during AIDS crisis... It wasn't that common to have a teenage boy coming out as gay.

Yes, R103. There were teen girls that dressed like Barb back in the 80s. A lot of parents were more controlling about what their kids wore back then, for one thing, so it is possible that Barb's mom picked her clothes. She also didn't really have the body to pull of Nancy style outfits, and a chunky gal like Barb would have been made fun of for trying to dress like Nancy. I started Junior High in 82, but I definitely remember older girls dressing that way. Glasses were also a lot less stylish in the 80s if you were unfortunate enough to need them, and big frames for women were very common.

Can we really believe a small town hospital would know what to do with Max’s compound fractures at extreme angles like that without amputations? Especially during a town emergency and the number of injured flooding in? She would have been triaged and left to die as not worth helping, while others who had a chance at surviving were helped. She needed a trauma level hospital with a gifted pediatric orthopedic surgeon.I don’t think even Indianapolis would have had those resources at that time. Maybe the Mayo Clinic or Rainbow Babies & Children’s Hospital, but not Hawkins General.

If Hawkins can attract telekinetic children and Soviet espionage, maybe they got around to enticing the best and brightest medical minds in the country.

The Hawkins National Laboratory, operated by the U.S. Department of Energy, was a federal complex located in Hawkins, Indiana. It was most likely actually controlled by the CIA or NSA, and was one of several national laboratories which grew out of the scientific endeavors of World War II. It controlled several subsidiaries, including Hawkins Power and Light. The lab was headed by Dr. Martin Brenner until the events of November 1983. Dr. Sam Owens then took over as Director of Operations.

R43 I think El didn’t see anything in Max’s mind because Max is brain dead. El shouldn’t have pulled her back.

Coma and brain death bit doesn't really bother me. That's the most obvious "we don't actually want to kill anyone important. But do want to make it seem like something important happened" I've seen from a show in a long time. She'll be out of it by the middle of season 5. Do wonder if she'll get her sight back though.

Someone in the episode articulated the question (paraphrased), "What has Hawkins done to deserve this?" I'd be willing to bet there's something, and I'd like to see that question answered in Season Five.

The 'good people' of Hawkins are still sticking to the idea that Hellfire was a cult that brought the whole disaster about, and that Eddie Munson was the center of it. A form of Satanic Panic is developing in the town, and Dustin and Eddie's uncle need to keep their heads down regarding their views on Eddie. The townspeople are probably going to become part of the antagonists for the final season.

R93, they shouldn't be. Teenage boys during the 80s rarely did 'out and proud,' unless it was associated with a complete detachment from their family lives; to go 'out and proud,' they generally ran away to a large city and re-made their lives in order to do that. And in the 80s, that was often a death sentence, because they often came down with HIV. It's highly doubtful that the character of Will Byers will have an arc like that; he's happy with his family, and if he comes out, it will probably be quite low-key, only known to those closest to him.

[quote]R104: Did the drag queen Asian guidance counselor survive??

That's a good question. It comes across as though Season Four had developed too many moving parts, and they forgot to do anything with her.

I guess I'm alone in wishing Eddie would have survived. It was too predictable that he'd die. I also feel like he could have been a decent character, mixing in with the group, for next season. Oh well.

Max is the best actor in the show, and one of the best characters.

Jason getting a total throw-away death that nobody seemed to care about was ... odd. Yeah, he was loathsome, but still.

Definitely not the ending I expected through. I certainly didn't expect the 'reunion' to not happen until the very final minutes of the season, after all the big action was over. But I'm glad they're finally together again. I hope they don't split everyone up for next season like that.

The biggest and most mind-bending revelation was that 1/Vecna created the Mind-Flayer. Strange that given THAT, that 1/Vecna showed absolutely zero interest in Will. Given they practically have a connection.

[quote]R114: I guess I'm alone in wishing Eddie would have survived. It was too predictable that he'd die. I also feel like he could have been a decent character, mixing in with the group, for next season. Oh well.

I am somewhat uneasy that his body was apparently left in the Upside-Down. There could be unwelcome consequences for that.

I think Will is only connected to Vecna when he’s in Hawkins. Will mentioned that he can feel him and knows how he thinks. Vecna did possess Will in Season 2

I wish Eddie would have lived. He was a terrific character, though considering the Duffer Bros. usual pattern, they would have likely wasted any potential in the next season. That being said, I would have much rather seen any of the following bite it before he did: Jonathan, Mike, Lucas, Robin, the fat Mexican stoner with the long hair, and Mike's dad.

Christ, Gaetan Matarazzo is a fat piece of shit.

I don't know how anyone can remember anything that happened in Season 1. In 2016. I think I have a normal memory and I remember certain things but not many details. Do many of you rewatch the series, or read about it, or what?

That fat mexican stoner is not funny and annoying

[...]

R120, R121 He was recommended to the Duffers by Finn Wolfhard. I think he was an odd choice for a part that was probably supposed to be like Sean Penn in Fast Times At Ridgemont High...actually I think he's really good but also kind of annoying at the same time, if that makes sense.

Mexican? I thought he was Hawaiian?

R123 Nope

Hell, I thought he was Native American.

In the other thread, someone else called it that Eddie would redeem himself by sacrificing himself. The guitar hero scene was embarrassing, though.

I found episode 9 to be repetitive. Max facing off with Vecna. We saw that already. Eleven fighting with Vecna. We saw that already. Everything that happened in this episode has already happened. The last 30 minutes were pretty good, though, just a circle of closure scenes.

[quote]In the other thread, someone else called it that Eddie would redeem himself by sacrificing himself.

Redeem himself for what?

[quote] Noah Schnapp (who plays Will) is a terrible actor, devoid of conviction and magnetism.

I thought he did great in his two big emotional scenes. Other than that, they didn’t give him anything to do, except to look scared and anxious in the background. But he showed more acting ability in those two small scenes that Finn Wolfhard demonstrated the entire season.

R128 He was amazing in season 1 and 2, as well.

Apparently, next season will have a time jump to accommodate the actors actual ages. With that final shot I'm not sure how that will work exactly.

I agree, r128. He’s a great actor. But I feel he was let down by the writers. I know it was the 80s, but this show is not a documentary. They could have written whatever but instead left Will’s sexuality as subtext. In 2022. That and the fact that this poor boy had to bury his feelings so that his crush could make amends with his girlfriend left a really bad taste in my mouth. Even the painting, so hyped from episode 1, was used to further that straight relationship. I didn’t like how the show runners handled Will’s story at all.

R130, I guess that means the show is moving into the 1990s? Dunno how I'd feel about that -- I think that would feel like such a departure in vibe from the previous four seasons.

I am surprised the show used Siouxsie's Spellbound. Was Cities in Dust too on the nose (given what has happened to Hawkins)?

Jonathan's character took a hit this season but the scene with him feeling bad for Will when he was talking to Mike and then giving him his support in the pizza place were well done. That poor actor is hard to look at.

[quote] That poor actor is hard to look at.

He's aging like a British rock star.

Looking forward to the time jump. Will will be 22 and having a secret affair with Hopper.

The actor who plays Jonathan is Edward Furlong 2.0. Looks like him and it seems has the same penchant for mind altering substances.

I do not understand the obsession and the supposed appeal of this show.

The 80's nostalgia bit was the whole point of season 1 (think campy horror movies aimed at young kids/teens mixed with stephen king book generic plots). Then the CGI started in Season 2 (I watched 1 episode).

Now I can only assume that it is designed by committee streaming schlock in the same vein as the ubiquitous zombie visual media that seemed to dominate the early aughts through the mid 2010's. Writing your story based on your actors' ages and fandom desires is not creative license--it is marketing strategy. Marketing does not seek to create something new, novel, or impressive; it only serves to increase revenue in a capitalist society. There is no art here.

Jonathan only came to life in his one scene with his brother telling him he will always be there for him (which I thought was code for, "Oh shit, he gonna be dead by the end of the episode or season!"). Even at his final (and only) scene with Nancy, his girlfriend, he seemed distant and detached from the whole scene and what is happening in it.

I noticed the end credit's finale, while Siouxsie & the Banshees' Spellbound is playing, is the only time the stranger things season four logo is used slowly getting bigger. All the other end credits are just all black, no logo.

It's the little things, LOL.

Jonathan and Will’s real dad is Jack Wild from HR Pufnstuf.

They're skipping to 1988 for s5. Which means there's a portal to the Upside Down in the sky's above Indiana for 2 whole years and apparently everything in the wider world carries on fine. Which seems retarded but guess we'll see.

R142. It's not in the sky is it? I thought it was in the ground.

But yeah, that's strange. The last 10 minutes really confused me actually. I thought the portal opened right in the middle of Hawkins for some reason, seemingly centered on a church or whatever. Then everyone was talking like it was "just an earthquake" so I thought El had managed to close the portal by saving Max.

But no, there's fucking massive portal billowing huge amounts of smoke into the sky. How is nobody in Hawkins aware of this?

r143 Actually rewatching the scene I'm not sure if its less of a portal than it is the Upside down is now eating into our world, like that spoiler Noah said last month. Which is even funnier because in 2 years that should mean about 5 states and parts of Canada have turned into hell. Should have done the timeskip at the start of 4 once they realised Covid was happening.

[quote] The last 10 minutes really confused me actually. I thought the portal opened right in the middle of Hawkins for some reason, seemingly centered on a church or whatever. Then everyone was talking like it was "just an earthquake" so I thought El had managed to close the portal by saving Max.

Because that's what the news media is telling them. Remember the scene of Mike's dad watching the news? Of course, the one's close to the Scooby Gang know different, but let's not forget it was most of Hawkins who believed Hellfire is a Satanic Cult. Satanic Panic 'n all.

Sorry, the ones close to the Scooby Gang ...

It's getting quite self indulgent.

R93, ppl are fkin idiots.

[quote] They're skipping to 1988 for s5. Which means there's a portal to the Upside Down in the sky's above Indiana for 2 whole years and apparently everything in the wider world carries on fine.

Hawkins be like ...

Scooby Doo is right. I've never seen a villain take so fucking long to enact their plan. Vecna did everything but but sing The Story of Lucy and Jessie while yammering on about his backstory. Those vines could have choked out Eleven, Steve and the two bims in seconds, but instead they moved by osmosis. And Max levitated for so long before her bones started to break that I thought Vecna was waiting for Osteoporosis.

This show is so fucking bloated and overlong. Tell the story and get out. Bigger is not always better. The last two episodes were motherfucking interminable. And yes, the final episode was the same final episode we've seen every single season.

I hope David Harbour can maintain that weight loss. He was already a sexy beast but now? Holy fuck.

I didn't mind the last two episodes as much as some of you did but I do think it they showed the Wolfhard kid is a terrible actor. Really, really bad.

Seeing 1988 through the lens of ST sounds fun!

R151, I don't like him skinny. I mean he's never bad looking but heavier-- woof!

[quote] I hope David Harbour can maintain that weight loss. He was already a sexy beast but now? Holy fuck.

I don't know if anyone else noticed it, but between the first and second episodes that just dropped, Harbour looked like he'd already gained weight. He was lean to the point of sculpted in the first episode but when he got back to Hawkins and saw El, he had a muffin top thing happening.

[quote]I agree, [R128]. He’s a great actor. But I feel he was let down by the writers. I know it was the 80s, but this show is not a documentary. They could have written whatever but instead left Will’s sexuality as subtext. In 2022. That and the fact that this poor boy had to bury his feelings so that his crush could make amends with his girlfriend left a really bad taste in my mouth. Even the painting, so hyped from episode 1, was used to further that straight relationship. I didn’t like how the show runners handled Will’s story at all.

Thanks for agreeing with me. But at this point I wouldn't call Will's sexuality subtext. Certainly not after he secretly cried in that scene. We all know it. Jonathan, at least, seems to know it, or strongly suspect it. He just hasn't come out, yet.

Gay kid in love with/attracted to his straight best friend, who is his sorta-sister's boyfriend. Pretty dramatic situation - conflict makes for good drama, so why wouldn't they want to build up some tension there? Make it a cliffhanger.

There's a lot going on in this show, it's not the Will Byers Is Gay show, so I don't think the writers wanted to go into all the side issues or scenes it would have created if Will came out this season. Even if it were set in the present, not everyone would probably immediately accept it and live happily ever after. They would have to depict the various reactions of his other friends, and his mom. And Mike. The time was limited, to do this...and they were in the process of "saving the world".

Will is obviously highly emotional about the whole situation so you can't just pass it off with "Okay, he came out, problem solved, next problem..."

The writers also could have glossed all this over and cut to "6 months later" but who would that have satisfied?

So I actually think making it play out slowly as it probably would have done had this been real life (real life with an upside down and crazy monsters) works better.

[quote]The writers also could have glossed all this over and cut to "6 months later" but who would that have satisfied?

Well the series is jumping two years in Season 5 so we'll see where we are then.

[quote]Also Will still hasn't said yeah I'm gay. Which wouldn't bother me given the amount of subtext they've thrown at him but that's apparently too subtle for some of the retards out there who can still pretend he's straight.

The original Duffer Brothers, "Pitch bible" had Will as someone struggling with his sexuality and while Will content was touch and go the first seasons; they have definitely dropped more than a few hints to let you know this is where they were always going. Robin was the only character they decided was gay after the fact at Maya Hawke's urging.

[quote]Robin was the only character they decided was gay after the fact at Maya Hawke's urging.

Yeah and it would work way better if Robin was straight and she and Steve hit it off, because the actors (and even the characters) have chemistry. Guess I'm not supposed to wish a gay character is straight, that's so politically incorrect. But it's kind of clear the show made a mistake, with the chemistry Maya and Joe have on screen going nowhere, Robin liking the chick who looks like she stole Molly Ringwald's wardrobe, and Steve and Nancy having that thing they have, whatever it is.

[quote]Steve and Nancy having that thing they have, whatever it is.

I've always thought that Nancy was never going to end up with Steve or Jonathan or anyone else like that. She's definitely the person that will leave their hometown and come back to visit from her big "journalism" job in the city somewhere. That's the thing about these shows. Watching them as adults, you know that realistically, she'll end up with someone else entirely especially since her paths and interests are so different than both men.

[quote]Yeah and it would work way better if Robin was straight and she and Steve hit it off, because the actors (and even the characters) have chemistry.

While I do like seeing the actors together, I appreciate the fact that Robin and Steve are friends because they like being around, care for and support each other and not because they want to have sex with each other. There's not enough of that in film and television. When she meets someone he's genuinely happy for her.

[quote]While I do like seeing the actors together, I appreciate the fact that Robin and Steve are friends because they like being around, care for and support each other and not because they want to have sex with each other.

Yeah, that's just so interesting and exciting. I'm not saying they have to want to have sex with each other. But a flirtation can't even be taken to another level, like a date. Their chemistry is clearly something like a romantic/sexual one, it doesn't seem genuine that she's a lesbian, actually. It seems forced. To me, anyway.

It seems forced because Maya Hawke is a terrible actress.

R159 Well yeah that doesn't help.

R153 I noticed that, but I wondered if the reunion scene with El was filmed before the last part in Russia post prison escape - i.e. David Harbour continued to lose weight, but the scenes were shot out of order.

---

I really felt they could have just finished the show this season. I enjoy watching it, but it could have just ended with Vecna's death and the permanent closure of the portal. Now we're going to get another season with Vecna being all bad and no doubt upping the ante, only to get killed at the end for the show to finally be concluded.

I think that's why Will didn't come out 'properly' - they want to keep it for the final season. They'd have done it in the scene with the brother if this had been the final season. It felt like they wrote it thinking they might not get renewed, then had a bit of a rewrite once the renewal confirmation came through.

R161 If they did it with the scene with the brother (Jonathan) what were they supposed to do about him telling Mike?

Natalia Dyer needs to eat a damned sandwich! She's starting to look like Nancy Reagan: Human Pez Dispenser.

If Will can read Henry's thoughts, he can probably read Will's. I think Henry/Venaca will be the one to "out" Will and try to use his homosexuality against him. To torture him with Mike not returning his esteem/love. We saw how Henry/Veneca enjoyed taking on the visage of others while he had his victims trapped within his mind-realm (or whatever that was). Veneca will take on the visage of Mike, obviously, to try to get Will to give up. But I feel his character is tougher than that, personally! I think this will be a plot point when he and Eleven engage him in the final battle, bringing everything full circle.

Well at least in that one way, she and Finn Wolfhard are looking like siblings.

[quote] I noticed that, but I wondered if the reunion scene with El was filmed before the last part in Russia post prison escape - i.e. David Harbour continued to lose weight, but the scenes were shot out of order.

I think what happened was Covid. They shot some material, then had to take a break, then shot more after another break. I don't know where in that order Harbour got lean, but if they needed him lean for the Russia stuff, he likely trained, lost the weight, then after shooting the Russia material, was on an extended break and fattened up again. He is definitely someone who likes his pie.

R162 Well, as it's the 80s, I think the brother would advise Will to keep it to themselves, as you can't know how the friends will react.

R164 - Probably. I'm already bored by the thought of more lengthy Vecna scenes.

[quote] I think what happened was Covid. They shot some material, then had to take a break, then shot more after another break.

I noticed that Gaten Matarazzo looked more mature in some scenes (like when Dustin and Eddie did their distraction part), like he got older overnight. The Sophia Petrillo curse?

R169 What's the Sophia Petrillo curse? I know she was the mother on The Golden Girls but that's all I know about it.

r170, it's a punchline from a Golden Girls episode where she claims that one day she looked young and gorgeous and the next she looked like the old woman on Golden Girls.

R171 Oh, okay. Thanks.

Monsters from an alternate hell dimension are fine, but we draw the line at out gay kids in the 80s. Gotta keep it realistic.

Someone explain to me why a show portraying a kid going through emotional stress being typically closeted in the 70s and 80s, and who's probably on the verge of coming out but is finding it difficult, is so offensive to so many of you. I think it's great.

If it was easy for you all, kudos. I prefer what's happening on this show to the Love, Victor type of thing where kids announce they're gay in the hall at school and everyone applauds. Maybe that's how it's done today, I don't know, I'm not that young. But I doubt it. I think coming out is portrayed (often, not always) as way to simplified, in entertainment media. I'm still not out to everyone. I guess I don't come across as gay to many people, which in some ways is harder - when people assume you're straight. Well, whatever - but anyhow I'm relating to Will.

They shot about 3 weeks before the pandemic shutdown. But I thought most of that was in Latvia or wherever they filmed the boring Hopper shit.

It seems like it would be a struggle for David Harbour at his age and height to maintain the weight loss. He is a really big guy.

The Duffers were stoned as shit when they wrote this.

I do kind of have to congratulate this season for making Jonathan of all people one of my favorite characters. Stoner shit aside

I can't deal with Jonathan. He looks like a drug addict with Progeria.

Vecna is Eleven's biological father.

I've thought that, r180.

[quote]Vecna is Eleven's biological father.

Technically, they all got their powers from Henry/Vecna.

[quote]It seems like it would be a struggle for David Harbour at his age and height to maintain the weight loss. He is a really big guy.

47 and 6'3. Reminds me of Dave Bautista saying this upcoming Guardian's movie is his last time playing Drax because at 53 he just can't get his body into shape the way he has to be (to run around shirtless) anymore.

[quote]Well, as it's the 80s, I think the brother would advise Will to keep it to themselves, as you can't know how the friends will react.

I think he'd tell him to be careful but he wouldn't go that far. Besides, they moved out of Hawkins even if they're back now because of what's happening. Those friends of his have risked their lives multiple times to save Will. There's no one in that nerdy group of kids that would care besides Mike who would definitely pull a, "You're not in love with me are you?" kind of move.

Will could do better than self-obsessed (and fugly) Mike. Sure, Mike went all out to try to save Will from the upside down, but he comes to visit after not seeing his best friend for almost a year, and it is El, El, El, all the fucking time. When she isn't around, it is, is El okay? Are El and I okay? What should I do about El? Does El still love me?

Fuck you Mike. Your best friend is crying right next to you, after he gave you advise about your girlfriend, and you are completely oblivious to it. His brother, who is driving, noticed, but you didn't?

Fuck you, Mike.

PS Will, you could do WAY better than Mike. Get a better haircut, and you could hop up to SFO or Indianapolis and pull.

If I was Will's age I would also have a crush on Mike, he's adorable.

[quote]Vecna is Eleven's biological father.

Gross. Where was El's mother from, anyway? I don't think she was from Hawkins, or was she?

Can someone explain to me what the significance is of the beach, with young Max and Billy and their mom? Why does El keep returning to that in her mind?

Why would Will have a crush on his best friend that he grew up with and is dating his step sister, it’s sick. No wonder he thinks he is a mistake. There are so many other guys to crush on in that town.

r186 If you didn't have a crush on a close friend growing up you must be a very weird type of gay that's pretty much the universal experience (unless every last one of your friends looks like a troll) . Anyway Will has a crush on one of the only people his own age who has ever been nice to him and who tried to save him when nearly everyone else thought he was dead. Its not his fault that Mike turned into a pussy whipped little bitch.

[quote]Can someone explain to me what the significance is of the beach, with young Max and Billy and their mom? Why does El keep returning to that in her mind?

Seasons ago Eleven tapped into Billy's memories. His fondest memory was being at the beach with HIS mother. (He and Max have different moms.) After that, things went bad when his mother abandoned him to get away from his abusive father and left him with him. His father later hooked up with Max's mom which produced Max.

Max wasn't at the beach but Eleven did tap into her happy memories, where she was hiding from Vecna.

[quote]Gross. Where was El's mother from, anyway? I don't think she was from Hawkins, or was she?

El's mother, Terry Ives, was from Bloomington, Indiana. El's father, Andrew Rich, was killed in Vietnam to scare Terry (after Dr. Brenner got him sent there) after she was poking around and found Kali (Eleven's "sister" from seasons ago) at the facility.

[quote] His father later hooked up with Max's mom which produced Max.

Max and Billy are step siblings. They don’t share the same dad.

You see how confusing it is.

I forgot Max was not at the beach, she was at the drainage ditch, skateboarding.

R187 My best male friends growing up were like family I would never think of them in a sexual way. You smell their farts for Christ’s sake.

R191 I never had crushes on any of my male friends, either. But it doesn't mean it couldn't happen to other people.

Finn Wolfhard’s face has always made me think of a bird… there’s just something about his nose that looks like a beak.

The thing with Will is that his crush on Mike can also be interpreted as desperation to hold on to his glory days when they, the others as well, were still doing D&D in Mike's basement.

The whole show is about growing up and, well, growing up in the 80s. For a character like Will, struggling with his sexuality, may express that through the need to stop change, so things can stay the same and struggles with adulthood stay far away in the future. He did so in the previous season when he got mad that the others cared more about their girlfriends than playing D&D.

Will's monologue in episode seven where El needs him is, obviously, about him loving Mike, but could also be about Will needing Mike to keep him from freaking out about adulthood. Will doesn't seem to have made any friends in his new town, making him feel isolated.

r106, but was it common in the 80s to have a black guy dating a white girl in a predominantly white town, and everyone pretty much accepting it? Was it common for outcasts with obvious developmental/physical difficulties like Dustin to not constantly be called 'retards' by bullies? The 'it was a time' argument just seems like a cop out to me and an excuse for Hollywood to skirt around same sex male attraction. If this show is just being true to the era, it wouldn't be as fluffy as it is.

r115, I wanted him to survive, too. He was my favorite character this season, and his 'Master of Puppets' scene was awesome. It annoyed me that Dustin was the only one in the group to acknowledge, let alone give a shit, about Eddie's death.

r121, agreed. The only time I laughed was when he said NINA could be a small woman behind a tree. He was useless the rest of the season.

I get the distinct feeling r191 is one of the straight males on this board and is scandalized by the thought a gay guy in his friend group could think about bending him over.

R193 Finn has the face of a Russian Whorekina.

I know there are a lot of things to point out as not making sense, but when the group in the pizza van pulled up in the desert where Eleven was Mike spotted her on the ground right away which I call bullshit on that he would notice her that fast.

R128 Noah is practically oscar worthy in comparison to the “acting” of Caleb and Gaten.

If they do another season they’ll need to replace the actor who plays Will, or reduce his screen time further. He’s not good. Whenever he spoke it took me right of the show. He sounds too much like a Gen Z teen.

R199, you just don't like the actor because there's a good chance he's gay.

Don’t be daft. The kid can’t act and it’s painful to watch.

I don't think anyone watches Stranger Things for its outstanding acting, especially among the youth contingent. But if any of them were going to be replaced for being below what's acceptable to be on Stranger Things, it would have been between seasons 1 and 2. The producers now have the (too large) cast that is going to flog this horsie past the wire, which is in sight.

R174 I get where you're coming from, but I think the disappointment within the fandom mostly stems from the fact that the Duffer brothers said that Will's sexuality would be explicitly addressed in the final two episodes. Now, while that statement is open to a degree of interpretation, it's not unreasonable to assume that it meant Will would come out to at least one character.

The thing I don't get is why age is often brought into discussions about sexuality. They'll say things like "Will is only a teenager, he's too young to know he's gay", but no one says Mike is too young to know he's straight. It's just accepted that El is his girlfriend and he loves her.

Everyone's different, but at 14/15 I knew I was gay. I'd passed puberty and, therefore, knew what I found attractive. So I don't really think it's unreasonable to assume Will would know he was gay and may feel comfortable enough to tell his brother who he's close to.

[quote]R203: They'll say things like "Will is only a teenager, he's too young to know he's gay", but no one says Mike is too young to know he's straight.

When you read statements like that here, know that it's coming from a career homophobe, probably straight, and probably paid to be here.

Actually, Caleb McLachlin was superb in the scene where Max dies (and when Lucas turns into Vecna). His shouts to Erica for help were heartbreaking. The whole scene was a punch in the gut. That said, im not quite sure bringing Max back was dramatically the best thing to do. Although it’s hinted that she’s somehow not there anymore, that maybe her soul is gone.

r201 Are you Finn Wolfhard? Why would anyone complain about Noahs knock it out of the park performance when the guy who was his scene partner for 90% of the season has somehow got worse from how good they were as a 14 year old is right there.

I wonder if the ending will be a Nightmare on Elm St 4 with the souls of all the people he's killed escaping.

Yes, Fin Wolfhard as the great white hope of acting seems to being fizzling out quickly.

he seems more into music anyway

[quote]His shouts to Erica for help were heartbreaking. The whole scene was a punch in the gut. That said, im not quite sure bringing Max back was dramatically the best thing to do.

indeed, Gaten sobbing over the death of Eddie was heart-breaking, but frankly, gaten always chews the scenery. Caleb finally getting a meaty emotional scene and doing so well was gratifying.

r198 people have been commending Caleb for his acting and I'm like "whaaaat?", he is so bad. Poor Gaten has a short window, he is losing his youthful cuteness.

Caleb didn't suck as much as he usually does. It was actually nice to see. I thought Noah was very good, very natural. He comes off like a gay teenager terrified to be found out. If anything is letting him down, it's the ham fisted dialogue. I agree that back then, you would rather be eaten by a demodog than to have anyone to confront you about your sexuality, even in a friendly way. And you sure weren't going to admit it to anyone. Especially living where they did. Anyone who says otherwise is looking at the past through rose colored glasses or was never there.

The scene where Max and Lucas communicated by "texting" was rather sweet.

[quote]indeed, Gaten sobbing over the death of Eddie was heart-breaking, but frankly, gaten always chews the scenery. Caleb finally getting a meaty emotional scene and doing so well was gratifying.

Sadie, Caleb and Gaten are the three who are getting almost universal praise from critics of this season.

And Caleb calling for help from Erica was improvised like Hopper and Joyce's kiss and Eddie telling Dustin he loved him.

Do I misremember things, or did nobody but Joyce and Murray know Hopper was still alive until they turned up with him at the end?

I think Sadie, Millie, and Noah are the best out of the kids. Gaten is good too, I know people think he can go over the top but it works for the character. Dustin has big feelings

R215, I think so. I believe Joyce didn't want to get Eleven's hopes up. When they were sitting around the dinner table with the kids, she and Murray were keeping it quiet. Also Eleven was powerless so it's not like she could have helped.

[quote] "Will's going to be a big part and focus, is really all I can say of Season 5, in his journey. We're starting to see his coming of age, really. Which has been challenging for a number of reasons, some of which are supernatural. But you're starting to see him come into his own." Ross Duffer added, "[It's] setting up us coming full circle back to Season 1. I think you'll see that with a couple of the character arcs, not just with Will. But also with Steve and Nancy, and her relationship with Jonathan where things are not fully resolved. The characters have maybe made steps, like in the case of Will, but that journey isn't over yet. All of that is going to play a huge role as we try to wrap this thing up next season."

Sounds good he had less screentime than every other character in s4. Unless they end up killing him in which case they can fuck off.

2024 for season 5

R219 They gotta be kidding they will all look 30 by then.

There's no confirmed date, but its more likely to be 2024-25 than 2023.

The initial kids are 17-20 right now, but playing 15 year olds. So yes, it'll be a harder sell to have the next season take place *immediately* after Season 4, so I hope they don't do that. Maybe include filler stories in other media, but not S5 itself. They can do a time jump and have ~20 year olds (18-22 depending on actors and production timing) play 16-17 year olds just fine. Shows get away with that alllll the time. What'd be harder is to have 19-23 year olds play 15, which is what'll happen if it takes another few years to make the next season, and the story takes place immediately after S4.

Hopefully there's some kind of jump (and it can be as simple as the protags hanging in Hawkins to provide support to its more stubbornly sticking-around residents while finally actively trying to hatch often-doomed plans against the upside down; this is also a nice time gap to support the franchise through other media like video games) and we see less delay than what COVID-19 brought (3 years vs approx 1-2).

But these actors aren't the ones that'll look 30. Looking 20 when playing a mid teen is problematic, but looking 30 when playing an early college ager is creepy. The senior kids' actors - Jon, Nancy, Steve etc - are the ones that are currently at or approaching 30, but playing freakin 18-19 year olds! This is barely tenable. Steve works because of babyface and good health, but Jonathan often doesn't... because of deadface and bad health, and Nancy is fraying hard at the edges (looks early 20s at best, not 18, and it think it takes a lot of movie magic). They're gonna all look 20something in the next season no matter what, so again, a time jump that'll have the characters at somewhere more age 19-21 can help a lot. Like it won't help Jonathan because he's a visual mess, but the others might do fine.

Erika needs the boost the most because she's been a 15 year old (who looks 16-17 IRL) playing a 11-12 year old and its the most ridiculous. Any time jump, as long as the showrunners can make it, would help her a lot. It won't fix things, but say, a 16-17 year old (who looks 18 IRL) playing a um... 14 year old isn't nearly as ridiculous as trying to have us believe Erika is still like... 12? HA!

R217

OK, so I did have it right. Wasn't the kids' reaction to his reappearance incredibly blase under these circumstances? Yes, it was an emotional reunion with hugs and all, but shouldn't they have been totally losing it? Rather than be like "That rascal Joyce, tells us she's going to a conference, when in reality she's fetching our good friend/surrogate dad who we WERE CONVINCED WAS DEAD"? The reactions seemed more appropriate to a reunion with people who already knew he was still alive.

r222. there were very likely phone conversations off camera. I mean, Hooper, Joyce, and the agent lady didn't just show up at the cabin out of sheer luck hoping to find the kids there. The kids were cleaning the cabin up for a reason.

R223

Right, that makes sense - I didn't think of the fact there was a small time jump after the destruction in Hawkins.

If they showed everything, the episodes might be overlong.

S5 confirmed for 2024. That seems so farrr away.

r226 It is but they pulled a 3 year wait for s4 people were predicting everyone had stopped caring and it became the most streamed thing ever or something so they're probably not that bothered. They only have to hope Netflix doesn't go under before then.

I'm shocked people still care and that this season broke records given most have the attention span of a four year old.

r228, there are few instances where fans remain invested and create a pop culture hit people need to be part of (to discuss it) or be left out of the conversation.

It's a lot easier when all you have to do is flip on the TV.

I tried to watch this series, and couldn't get past the first episode. Never saw the appeal of it.

Are you Gen X?

[post redacted because independent.co.uk thinks that links to their ridiculous rag are a bad thing. Somebody might want to tell them how the internet works. Or not. We don't really care. They do suck though. Our advice is that you should not click on the link and whatever you do, don't read their truly terrible articles.]

R233 I don't get what you're talking about.

Just click on "I'll try later"

I wonder what the spin-off idea is. Apparently the Duffers haven't told anyone, but Finn Wolfhard guessed it. They say it is very different from Stranger Things.

My guess, Will comes out, gets a better haircut, and moves to NYC, Chicago, or San Francisco in the early 90s and celebrates his newfound freedom with rampant sluttiness.

R236, will that particular spinoff be called "Stranger Men?"

50 years later, Mike, Dustin, Will and Lucas move to Florida and snipe at each other while eating a lot of cheesecake.

[quote] DEADLINE: Noah Schnapp’s Will Byers got Stranger Things started, by disappearing into the Upside Down. He was this cute little kid, and now he’s a grown up good looking kid. He’s talking to Mike in that Surfer Boy pizza truck scene, telling him why he must fight for El and what she means to him, and then he turns away and cries, making you think he was professing his own love for Mike. Who was oblivious to what was said, beyond trying to get back his girlfriend El. Describe what’s going in Will’s mind there. Is he dealing with the feeling he might be gay?

[quote] ROSS DUFFER: Will was sort of still finding himself. He’s young still, even though he has grown up, and he’s afraid to fully express all his feelings to the people he really cares about. First and foremost being Mike. And so, that scene really exactly like you were saying is his way of at least relieving himself of some of that burden of saying some of the things out loud even if he’s not able to fully open up to Mike. He’s able to at least get some of those feelings out.

[quote] While Mike may not fully pick up on it, his brother does because he’s got that brotherly bond, which is why we wanted to do that scene in Surfer Boy Pizza in the final episode. Where his brother goes to him and without actually saying it, says I understand and I know, and they’re able to have that moment. Now, that journey of Will’s character is going to continue and that’s really going to be his arc as we move into the final season and complete that journey.

[quote] MATT DUFFER: Everything that he is, by describing how Eleven feels for Mike, he is describing his own feelings. It’s just for him it’s his way of, as Ross says, expressing himself and Mike just doesn’t understand, and not in a bad way. He misses it. He doesn’t get it, and I think when Will is crying it’s because he has all these feelings and Mike doesn’t understand and he can’t find a way to express them in a way that Mike can understand.

R205. I think most people agree it wasn't a good idea to bring her back.

It seemed like a cop-out honestly. My suspicion is that her mind is with Vecna now, since we've been told he subsumes the identities of those he kills, and the next season will have some contrived story of trying to rescue her mind or something from the hive mind that is the Mind Flayer/One.

Well, it looks like MBB isn’t the only one letting success go to there heads or in the case of David Harbor losing some weight and getting some positive attention like a former fat girl. In his dreams Jacob Elordi…

Honestly, I don't mind MBB. She's clearly the best actor on ST and I'm inclined to agree that she is better than some of the writing this show is delivering.

At least next season will be the last. This is turning from a decent King (inspired) show into a rather mediocre one with all this world-building.

Do they purposely make Mike and Nancy's father a doofus? No wonder the mom was attracted to that bad boy last season.

R243 Isn’t he just a parody of many of those TV fathers of the time?

Shame David Harbour gained all that weight back.

I preferred Dad Bod Hopper to ripped Hopper. Fight me.

His face looks better with more weight on. He’s just meant to be a bear.

That’s what I was thinking. Sad thing is when guys over 40 lose much weight, it tends to goes from the face too and can instantly make them look a decade older. Can’t win in life, huh?

R246 Why? At least give reasons why you prefer that roll of flab hanging over his belt.

R248 The current season is also 6 years after the first season. He is older.

r250 Its been at most 2 or 3 years. They were all somewhere in middle school now they're highschool freshmen.

[quote] If you didn't have a crush on a close friend growing up you must be a very weird type of gay that's pretty much the universal experience (unless every last one of your friends looks like a troll) .

I didn't have that experience. And I don't recall electing you in charge of deciding who had normal experiences or not.

Fuck off.

[quote]Its been at most 2 or 3 years. They were all somewhere in middle school now they're highschool freshmen.

I think R250 meant it's six years in our time (2016 to 2022), referring to the aging of real-life Harbour.

In-show time is definitely about two and a half. From November 1983 to March 1986.

Looks like Jamie what's his name may be gay (or trans?)

I know that's his costar but the makeup and hair looks feminine

I love El's new little trick where she suspends her victims in mid-air and then gently uses her fingers to twirl them to face her way. Points for style.

Twitter has something about the spinoff.

Joseph Quinn looks much better with shorter hair. He didn't do anything for me on the show looks-wise but off camera he's not bad.

R258 yup that terrible Brian May wig did him no favours.

Tonight I drove through our town square and saw a kid with that exact Eddie Munson hairstyle (this was real, though) and a Metallica long sleeve T shirt playing electric guitar at an outside coffee shop. I did a big double take, so much so that he actually looked at me and saw it. I don't know whether he was capitalizing on Stranger Things or it was just a coincidence, or what.

No way these two aren't fucking

Joseph Quinn can do better.

I wouldn't say it's universal, but I did have the teenage experience of a crush on a close straight friend.

It was hell, I can attest. He was gorgeous. I'd try to be careful not to give anything away. I'd fear that a glance had lingered too long, that my nervousness when we were physically close was too apparent. It's stupid in retrospect, because the lack of girlfriends on my side, ever, was the real giveaway. He probably knew and talked about it with our other friends.

The times we spent together were the times I was happiest, in a difficult period of my life. When he would talk about girls, I would feel as though I were swallowing glass. I really thought in that time that I was alone, or that the people like me were far away. I imagined terrible scenarios if I were forthcoming.

He lives in another part of the country now, and the person I see in photos on social media isn't the person in my memories. Of course, I'm not the same person either, for better or worse.

I didn't love Stranger Things seasons 4, but that part of the show has been authentic and well observed, IMO.

^ I fell in love with a straight friend big style. We was a drop dead gorgeous Australian guy and it was a bit of a mindfuck because he seemed a bit ambiguous sexually…until a few years later when he married and started producing babies. I eventually had the guts to tell him how I felt and his response was extremely vague and confusing. I actually had to ask if he could clarify if he felt the same way. He didn’t. I was 21 and it was the first time I’d had any feelings for a guy. Totally relate to Will crying in the car…that was a gut puncher of a scene.

[quote] Joseph Quinn can do better.

Funny, if someone had posted a picture of Jamie Campbell Bower and Joseph Quinn before this season of Stranger Things, I would expect DL to favor JCB over Quinn.

I’m old school and like pretty twinks. So Ive loved JCB for years.

R254 lol he always looked pretty in a fairly androgynous way. He once said that the receptionist at his mum's work place always mistook him as his mum's daughter when he was a kid. He never really seemed to mind, didn't keep him from jumping from one girlfriend to the next since he was a teenager.

R258 Yes, totally. Also his British accent is nice.

[quote]No way these two aren't fucking

They're not that far apart in age, both from London and were paired together for promo to do things (with the actor that played Argyle) the other actors weren't involved in.

Jamie is dating this woman and if look at pics of him wearing his normal "style" it makes sense.

I just finished the season and the finale was underwhelming. Henry got away and we basically have to wait another 2-3 years for season 5 now and the real end of the series. I was also hoping for the confrontation between Eleven and the girl/group who was bullying her. We know it will happen and it would have provided some comic relief but now we have to wait 2+ years for that either.

I also didn't like that the groups were all separated and not interacting for most of the season. The parents - as usual - were again mysteriously missing while their kids fight monsters and supernatural villains. Officially a mass murder is killing teenagers, but they all just sit at home and watch TV? Weird.

I also did not like all the sappy conversations. Mike&El, Max&Lukas, Will&Mike, Steve&Nancy, Joyce&Hopper etc. Everyone had a heartfelt conversation at some point and I had to fast forward through most of them. It was just too much.

[quote] I also didn't like that the groups were all separated and not interacting for most of the season. The parents - as usual - were again mysteriously missing while their kids fight monsters and supernatural villains. Officially a mass murder is killing teenagers, but they all just sit at home and watch TV? Weird.

How is that weird? There always has been a generational divide (and always will be). And there has always been masses of people who listen and obey authority figures like governments, (news) media, religions, cults, etc. turning family members against each other.

The show perfectly shows that nothing has changed much. We still go at each other's throats over what some government official like Trump, some "news" pundit like Carlson Tucker, or some preaching Christian like Falwell says. There are still plenty of dumb sheep out there who can't relate or connect with their fellow men with opposing points of views, agendas, and interests.

My only complaint about this season was that the crazy, Brad Pitt looking jock who tired to get the entire town to go after Eddie and the Hellfire Club in a ferevered Satanic Panic didn't die a more painful death. He was a horrible person and I was hoping he would get a Billy or Bob type of send-off. Ah, well.

I mean, he did get cut in half, R272.

I thought it was a shame he never got his shirt off. His character was an asshole, but he was hot.

R273 Weirdly, Mason Dye not being shirtless was a real advancement in his career, since that’s how he’s usually used on a show. I think this was by far his strongest acting of date too, not that is was anything exceptional, but he worked hard on this show to be an actual character, even if it was cardboard.

Agree with you, R274. I really, really despised him. Despite his hotness. The actor did a great job!

R272, continuing the discussion about the Satanic Panic stoking jock at R275.

At least with him being cut in half, he didn't go onto becoming a Jerry Falwell, Jr or Joel Olsteen type.

R270 I grew up during this time and I did my stuff, my parents did theirs. We would pass in the kitchen once in a while or eat together on Sundays. My mom used to say it was like her teens lived in a hotel. Nowadays kids are attached at the hip w/their parents, but back then everyone did their own thing most of the time.

I very much feel that myself, and most kids I know at the times of the late 60s and early 70s were raised to be ruggedly individualistic and self sufficient during that period.

Conveniently introduced a new character (Eddie) so they didn't have to kill off a beloved main character. It was getting ridiculous that everyone always survived grim situations, Russian interrogations and monsters so they just kill off the new guy. The Walking Dead also did this all the time.

[quote] We still go at each other's throats over what some government official like Trump, some "news" pundit like Carlson Tucker, or some preaching Christian like Falwell says. There are still plenty of dumb sheep out there who can't relate or connect with their fellow men with opposing points of views, agendas, and interests.

You complain about people who "can't connect with those with opposing points of view", but every single one of your examples of demagogues is from the opposing side, lol.

Eddie's not really dead if we find a way to remember him.

“The biggest and most mind-bending revelation was that 1/Vecna created the Mind-Flayer”

Did he? I thought it was the opposite and Vecna was just a “general”. Admittedly I don’t pay much attention to that, it exists, and I fast forwarded through Vecna’s speeches.

It was a disjointed season with the actors divided into three locations. That never works. Viewers like “the team” working together and this season, someone described it as coordinating an office meeting over Zoom. They barely got together at the end of the episode…missing a real emotional beat when El discovers Hopper is alive.

I really liked the Eddie character, once he had the scene with the cheerleader in his trailer. Before that, the D&D stuff was obnoxious. He became a very engaging character, like Steve. I was never a fan of “too cool for school” Max although she was less annoying this season so I’d be fine with her character death. (I fast forwarded through her monologues too, really don’t care about Billllly).

The origins of the UD is still kind of unclear since Vecna drew the MF as a child. So either the UD already existed it was influencing him then and is the source of all their telekenesis powers, or he somehow created it when Eleven blasted him through the walls of reality. If its the first one the Mindflayer is in charge, if its the second Vecna. Also apparently there are a bunch of Will/Vecna scene parallels this season I didn't pick up on.

Why WILL BYERS is the Key to STRANGER THINGS 5

Have they already started shooting season 5?

I also can't believe Netflix dropped $300 million on season 4. They should use some of that money to secure the rights to popular series and movies instead of producing so much overpriced crap. Netflix lost almost all popular series. Prison Break, 24, Homeland, DC series (Riverdale etc) and a ton of other stuff is now on Disney+ or Paramount. The movie selection is ridiculous. I will probably cancel my membership when Better Call Saul ends in July. With Ozark gone and Stranger Things 5 almost 2 years away, there's not much left they have to offer for $20/month.

They're not even starting writing it until August. There was an interview the other day they have the final part of the last episode planned and I think they have broad brush strokes enough for Noah to know he's got a big role, and that the first few episodes follow in the immediate aftermath of s4 but there's no real detail. So no way its out before mid 2024 and that'd be a push.

I would imagine the big bad is the one who gave Vecna his power. The big spider looking smoke / shadow monster, Vecna's human form encountered when exploring the dimension he was thrown in.

Could be a Star Wars thing where the smoke / shadow monster is the Emporer and Vecna is Darth Vader (Eleven is "Luke", Vecna's daughter?).

Vecna used his powers to turn the particles into his preferred form - a spider. Will is definitely connected on a deeper level. Hopefully the origin story of Henry’s powers will be paralleled with Will developing his powers as he falls in love with some new character. Then they can explain how he created parts of the upside down back in Season 1.

Did Vecna groom Will?

They haven’t started writing s5 yet? Why have they left it so late? They knew they were getting a s5 for quite a while I presume? You’d think they’d have a little break when they finished s4 then immediately get to work on the next season? The kids will be collecting their pensions at this rate.

[quote]I was also hoping for the confrontation between Eleven and the girl/group who was bullying her. We know it will happen and it would have provided some comic relief but now we have to wait 2+ years for that either.

You think they're going back to live in California?

^You think we won't get our Carrie moment? It would leave a message that bullying has no consequences, no?

She bashed the girl’s face in. That story is closed, I think.

[quote] It was getting ridiculous that everyone always survived grim situations

Right?!

Hmm, I bet she will be back to at least move some objects with her power and scare the bully.

[quote]You’d think they’d have a little break when they finished s4 then immediately get to work on the next season?

They literally finished season 4 the day the last two episodes went up on Netflix. In fact they had to tweak some bits after that.

People still expect these shows to be cranked out annually, even though they’ve become as expensive and complex to make as movies. If Stranger Things was a movie series, no one would be surprised there were two or three years between films… and each film would only be two hours long instead of ten or twelve.

R286, season 5 has been written and is in production. There are casting calls for cars from 1988.

R272 To be honest I forgot about it. Is it really important to the plot? I don't think there will be a Carrie moment after she already assaulted the chick. But I could be wrong, Idk.

[quote]People still expect these shows to be cranked out annually, even though they’ve become as expensive and complex to make as movies.

People expect a TV series to be a TV series, the second season followed the first season. Season 3 took longer, and Season 4 took so long for other reasons. I think people expect to be entertained, they signed on. You can't wait forever when they give you a cliffhanger. This show is unusual in that people adore it and they will wait. But this better not be tried with other shows.

[quote] They literally finished season 4 the day the last two episodes went up on Netflix. In fact they had to tweak some bits after that.

Huh? Netflix needs some time to get all the international subtitles and dubbing logistics done, too. To make them available for their international streaming platforms (not just the US division). Not buying that the Duff Bros worked on the final two episodes on the release date. Netflix? Maybe, but not the Duff Bros themselves.

Duff = Duffer, of course.

[Quote]They literally finished season 4 the day the last two episodes went up on Netflix. In fact they had to tweak some bits after that.

Post-production maybe. Primary photography wrapped a long time ago. The writers, actors and production teams are free. Sorry, but it's ridiculous we have to wait 2-3 years between seasons especially when the series focuses on a group of high school teenagers. Network television often shoots 22-24 episodes a year. And most of these DC shows also have special effects. Maybe they should focus more on storytelling instead of CGI. Season 1 had a significantly lower budget and it's my favorite season. Great stories and character development, charming and limited CGI. It worked well.

[quote]Did Vecna groom Will?

VECNA IS NOT A LIBTARD!

I told a friend of mine that I think Sadie Sink is the best actor on the show, and he agreed with me.

r289 He did spend most of the first few seasons trying to invade his body with tentacles. Maybe Vecna is part Japanese?

Vecna clearly created the mind flayer when he entered the upside down. That was a big reveal that some folks missed I guess.

What I might have missed... Was the upside down something that Vecna entered with the rip created by 11? Or was it created by that event entirely?

Looks like Wills staying single to the end of the show then.

Man, one of the Duffer Bros. is a KA-WEEN!

Only one of the brothers is married to a woman, so the other must be gay.

Did you fuck afterwards, R303?

R305 I think it already existed, Eleven just opened the door

R310. That's my view as well. It's clearly the ideal primordial landscape that One/Vecna claims humanity ruined. The irony being of course that he came along and ruined it himself by imposing all his human concepts of the world upon it.

As for the MF, I suspect it already existed. The particles were already there in the sky, One/Vecna just reshaped them into his idealized self. If we assume those particles reflect the collective will of the UD, Vecna seems to have hi-jacked it to fulfill his agenda. He's it's five-star general but also the most prominent aspect of its hivemind personality.

Again, irony abounds.

Vecna didn't create the mind flayer, R305. He even says he discovered it while wandering the upside down. He gave it shape, but it's unclear what that means at this point. The mind flayer is the same entity as the "Shadow" that was loosed in the Russian prison, and it's something apart from Vecna even though they have a close connection.

My guess is they're going in a Lovecraftian direction, and the mind flayer is some ancient entity that's been trapped in the upside down for many ages. The fact that upside down Hawkins is stuck in the time period that Will entered it might indicate that he has some ability to shape the upside down that hasn't been explored yet. Maybe upside down Hawkins didn't exist until Will got there, and it's just never progressed since. After all, in what little we've seen of Vecna wandering the upside down after being exiled there, there are no human ruins, just barren landscape.

That might be related to or mirror Vecna's ability to shape the mind flayer. Will might also have changed the upside down without knowing it, which would explain why they keep hinting outside of the show that he's crucial to the resolution of the whole story.

Can someone explain how the eleven people got their super powers?

R313. Magic.

It's not explained. Her mother may have been psychic, or on drugs when she was pregnant.

The whole series has a King vibe so maybe she was just born with those powers. No explanation needed.

Eleven’s mother took part in MKUltra and gained her own abilities through the experiment.

I guess it's in the eye of the beholder but I'm not that impressed with Sadie Sink. Unlike many (actually, most) other actors on the show, she seems incapable of doing comedy as well as drama, for instance.

Didn't the government use young people in the military for mind-training experiments, where they were able to mentally levitate objects and bend object as well as do remote mind reading? Or is that just an unproven rumor? Anyway I think that is supposed to be how someone like 11 got her powers. I don't think she had them at birth, she was taken hostage to use for these experiments, and was systematically taught to train her mind.

I thought it was pretty on point that outsider Eleven became a pariah in California once she attacked her bully. As an outsider, you'll never win people over. We see that with Hawkins where the D&D club Hellfire is all of a sudden a Satanic cult, because the townspeople will never accept so-called weirdos. It's easier to blame the weirdos for everything than to listen to reason or facts.

R317. That was the Stargate Project, which has sometimes been mixed-up with MK-ULTRA. The former was looking into psychics, specifically remote viewing/astral projection. The latter was mind control through drugs, torture and hypnosis.

Nothing came of it but I guess the military had to try.

The scene were the group of bullies attacks Eleven in public was the worst bullying I've ever seen. They attacked her in public - not some back alley - while a bunch of adults and bystanders willingly participated. Was that common in the 80s or 90s? I don't think this would happen today. At least not in public.

R320 it was grossly exaggerated because it is Hollywood. However, kids were openly verbally bullied in the late 80s when I was in school and the teachers either did nothing or even joined in. They drew the line at physical bullying—sometimes. They never gave a shit about sexual harassment or groping either.

[quote]Conveniently introduced a new character (Eddie) so they didn't have to kill off a beloved main character.

They introduce a kind character and off them every season. They did it with Shannon Purser as Barb in Season 1. They did it with Sean Astin as Bob (Joyce's then boyfriend) in Season 2. They did it with Alexei the Russian Scientist who helped them in Season 3. They did it with Eddie in this one.

[quote] They introduce a kind character and off them every season. They did it with Shannon Purser as Barb in Season 1.

Was Barb kind? I thought she was just fat.

R313 Some people think Eleven has stronger powers than the other kids, because she might be Henry's biological child (either a lab romance between Henry and her mum during MK-Ultra times or she got chosen by Brenner and his people for a breeding experiment). It would be kind of Star Wars-y, but I think it could be interesting if true.

Henry looked way too young to be Eleven's father. He looked early to mid 20s in the lab scenes.

R325 Henry is canonically 32 years old in the lab scenes from 1979 (same age as Jamie Campbell Bower was during filming), so he would have been old enough to be the father of 8 year old Eleven.

R320 Overall I always felt you were on your own, more, back then - I was bullied one time after gym class - and one of the kids stole some of my stuff, as well - and I went to the gym teacher about it and he laughed at me. Bullying only had consequences if you hurt someone enough for the police to be called in, probably.

[quote] The scene were the group of bullies attacks Eleven in public was the worst bullying I've ever seen. They attacked her in public - not some back alley - while a bunch of adults and bystanders willingly participated.

Huh? Back in the days it was called a prank, a humiliating public prank. You know, like making Carrie win Prom Queen and then drop a bucket full of blood on her. These cruel sort of things still happen in the social media age. Not just in movies.

Yup. I remember being a young kid, maybe 6 or 7, and being bullied by some kid in my neighborhood. One day, I got mad enough that I picked up a broken piece of cinderblock and hit him in the head with it. The wound wasn't terrible, but it bled a lot. I got dragged by someone's mother over to my house and she confronted my mom about it. My mom said- Well, that's what he gets for bothering my kid.

Several years later (and a different state), I was in a carpool during 8th grade with two other families. The next-door-neighbors had two kids in it, and someone else's kid nearby was also in it My mom drove everyone in the morning, and the other two moms split the afternoon shift (which annoyed my mom because she was doing double the driving).

Those fuckers used to bully me mercilessly, making fun of me during the ride home, especially when it was the mom of the nearby kid. She had a van, and I used to sit up front with her. One day they were particularly awful, and I looked at her to see if she was going to say anything. She looked at me with such disgust and I knew- that was it. Next red light, I jumped out of the van and refused to get back in. I called my mom from a gas station and told her she had to come get me. On the way home, I told her I'd rather ride the public transportation bus (not school bus, there was none) home every day than get back in that car pool. She called both moms that night and told them they would have to find someone else to drive their kids to school every morning. Pronto.

Yeah, adults were pretty hands-off back then, but when I needed her, my mom always had my back.

Well, where was foster Mom Winona when El was getting bullied? Doing her telemarketing and socking away tens of thousands of dollars to spend it all getting Hopper out of Russia.

Her brother and wimpy boyfriend were RIGHT THERE and did nothing. Nada. At least if Joyce had been there, there would have been more than one young Republican cunt's nose busted up.

Joyce was kind of a terrible mother this season. Eleven was going through Carrie level bullying, Will was reaching critical gayness, and Jonathan had become a depressed directionless stoner all without the stay at home mom noticing. Never mind planning to invade the USSR without telling them. What was the plan in the highly likely event she died and no one ever found the body?

R332 It was kind of weird that this mom who was depicted as being SO devoted to her kids in seasons 1 and 2 would then turn around and behave like that.

She didn't even remark on Jonathan suddenly looking her age.

Charlie Heaton looked SO bad (I thought he was very attractive in Season 1). And I assume he looked that way AFTER they did everything they could with makeup and lighting. Surprised they didn't resort to CGI.

[quote]Joyce was kind of a terrible mother this season.

Or a great one for going to rescue Eleven's father. What else was she supposed to do? Just let him die after he sacrificed his life to save them?

If something happened to her, Jonathan would have taken care of Will and Eleven would have been able to stay with any of them. As far as she knew when she left, they were safe.

Joyce wouldn't have been able to stop the bullying unless she stayed under Eleven's nose every day. She probably already knows Will is gay and is just waiting for him to tell her.

R336 How do you sacrifice your life if you don't die?

[quote]How do you sacrifice your life if you don't die?

Because there's no phrase or saying in English that means, "sacrifice your life but don't die."

You could say he was "self-sacrificing." Or maybe "he attempted to sacrifice his life." How about, "it was an act of self-sacrifice."

The point is: he went in to that situation knowing he could die and everyone thought he did. It was the act.

Joyce couldn't let someone that would do that and managed to survive (who she loved) die for real.

If Vecna is Eleven’s father do you think he’ll seek custody in court for her?

[quote] Because there's no phrase or saying in English that means, "sacrifice your life but don't die."

He gambled with his life and it paid off.

[quote] Will is SPEECHLESS. But he LIKES what he hears. His happiness is palpable. His mouth, DRY AS A CALIFORNIA SUMMER.

The script for Dear Billy is out if anyone's interested. Does make me understand why the best moments from the series were apparently improv.

[quote]Because there's no phrase or saying in English that means, "sacrifice your life but don't die."

No, there isn't, because you have to die in order to sacrifice your life. So you should have said something else, such as he put his life on the line. I didn't mean to be a jerk, though, it just struck me as kind of funny.

[quote]I didn't mean to be a jerk

But you managed just fine!

R343 Too bad you can't accept an apology, huh?

Since I am not the offended party, your apology is unnecessary.

ugh, you guys are BOTH tedious, ok?

*SPOILER*

I wondered if they’d decide to kill off Eddie because he was actually pretty similar to Steve in personality except less doofy. Still silly, has a good heart, acts like a big brother to Dustin. The only differences were superficial, like how they dress and the crowds they hung out with in high school, Eddie dealing drugs. Even so, I was surprised to be upset to see him go.

Did anyone notice that they used the song When It’s cold, I’d Like to Die by Moby AGAIN in the dying scenes just like in season 1 when Eleven battled the monster and Mike thought she’d die juxtaposed with Hopper’s baby daughter’s death (if I recall correctly)? Kind of disappointing to re-use an old song to set the sad scene, although that song really does bring on tears.

Noah says Mike is gay:

‘Stranger Things’ Star Noah Schnapp on Doja Cat, Season 5, and Will’s Sexuality: ‘He Is Gay and He Does Love Mike’ (EXCLUSIVE)

He doesn't say Mike is gay, unless you confused Will with Mike R348

R349 Whatever, I just wanted to post the article...

Venaca/Henry showed himself to be a master manipulator and happily indulged in mind fucking people. Do we think he'll go for the "divide and conquer" with the gang, to weaken them and to enjoy watching them suffer?

Poor Will. I hate that he is most likely going to try and use his feelings of isolation and love for Mike to hurt him (and everyone else). Growing up gay in the 1980's would bring ample trauma without any help from that freak.

Would they make Henry/One/Vecna gay? Would that even work? I kinda feel like it would be overkill, but it could make his connection to Will more meaningful. They might give us a final flashback to the origin of Henry feeling isolated.

I mentioned it earlier, but the show could use the 80s movie Legend starring Tim Curry, Mia Sara and Tom Cruise as inspiration and put Will in the Mia Sara role.

[quote] So this scene was actually not originally written in the script. It was only until after I did the scene of me in the van, where they saw me crying and the protectiveness that you see with Jonathan looking in the rearview mirror. They were like, we need a scene with that. So they wrote it as we were filming. It’s also very important for people to see that Will is not alone — because all we ever see of him is struggling and feeling depressed and that he can’t be himself. Jonathan is talking to him in code — it’s just the perfect way to tell someone like Will that he cares about him and he accepts him no matter what. I think it was really wholesome.

Their original plan was to leave it at Will crying in the back of the van?

Jamie Campbell Bower reads Vecna thirst tweets

Vecna’s reaction to gay Will in Season 5 will be like this.

So you've all been speculating in this thread for weeks about Will, and when the actor playing him finally states, full out, Will is gay and he's in love with Mike - nobody talks about it? Typical DL.

r357 Were people speculating? Everyone and their mother knew Will was gay and in love with Mike. Yes its great to finally have it spelled out in plain English for the few slow people still in denial on social media, and its nice that Noah clearly gets the struggle Will is going through and is trying to give his performance the emotion it requires. But the interview doesn't really change much on the Will gay front. My main takeaway from it is that firstly the writers are really unequipped to write this story well if they were originally planning to end the Will being gay story as just a way to have him be self sacrificing and reunite Mike and Eleven without any actual payoff for Will himself, and secondly Noah doesn't really seem to know what he's going to be doing next season so I should probably lower my hopes about how important Will is going to be.

[...]

R358 Well, if they weren't speculating, they were talking about it a lot. But typically, people were asking them to spell it out and now that it is spelled out, you still can't take five minutes to be happy about it, and have already decided the show will not reveal it to your satisfaction.

It is still subtext in the show, r360. It is not too much to ask for gay text, rather than subtext. It’s not the first time a network uses gay subtext to avoid pissing the bigots. If that was not the plan, great: this interview is a step in the right direction. But if that wasn’t the plan, then the writing was shoddy at best. This interview seems like damage control.

r361, the problem is the show is supposed to be all about the 80s feel and yet it had Robin come out to Steve, no subtext involved. Still trying to use subtext with Will feels like a dick move after that with the viewers being teased each season with not much of a payoff but still enough to flame the arguments (Joyce said this in season one, Mike said that, and Jonathan said this in season four!).

r360 People wanted it spelling out in the show though not in supplementary actor interviews, and while I don't think there was a single person on DL that didn't clock he was gay at least 2 seasons ago. Before this season a bunch of people in other places thought they were hinting towards him being asexual. That interview with Noah is still trending on Twitter and honestly if the subtext was so subtle that him going "yeah he's gay as balls" is that noteworthy I don't really think I should be congratulating the Duffer bros. Especially since the best scene of Wills struggle with his sexuality wasn't even intended to happen originally. It just happened to be written in because they suddenly remembered Noah can actually act. Otherwise the gay kid would have had even less screen time or character development.

Frankly, Will has been through things that put being a closeted 80's gayling on the back burner, though. Bring possessed. Being stalked by the Flayer and nearly dying. Seeing people killed right in front of him (like Bob). The evil that invaded his body and mind, still lingers. His brother has checked out with the drug use and hanging out with that long haired dimwit. His best friends are all back in Hawkins. The guy he's in love with/crushing on is in love with his sister. His sister is a sometimes super-powered weirdo. His mom is barely keeping it together. And on, and on.

But sure. Why hasn't Will "come out", worn some chaps and sashayed around Cali, trying to find him a buff sugar daddy? 🙄

I didn't clock Will for being gay until I'm reading all these posts about it. But I'm not in the habit of analyzing the sexuality of high school kids in an adventure show.

I want to see more of this high school bitch who got her face beat by the roller skates. Let's see how she acts now towards El. Let's have more fight scenes now that El has her powers back. Yes I'm a sick fuck.

R366, I agree. Let's see her try her passive-aggressive, I'm so sweet act against someone who can actually rip her fucking head off with her mind.

R352 While I'd love having more backstory for Henry/One/Vecna personally I'm not (yet) a fan of the "Vecna is gay" theory. Maybe if it's well done, but I don't really want an overly simplistic "he's just a murdering monster, because he's gay and misunderstood" storyline. Some fans fond of the theory have pointed out that Victor Creel described Henry as "sensitive boy", just like Joyce called Will similarly. So yes, I get the whole mirroring thing and that being gay in a bad environment (the doctors in Henry's past might hint at conversion therapy) and in a better environment (Will's loving family) might make all the difference, but still. I also feel it's a little simple to make "sensitive boy" a code word for gay, because one has not much to do with the other and just plays into stereotypes.

Also I like the theory that Henry/One/Vecna might be Eleven's biological father as explanation why she has stronger powers than the other kids. I also like the idea of a trinity of fathers: one who created her (Henry), one who shaped her (Papa) and one who rescues her (Hopper). And while obviously Henry could be both her father and gay (especially considering the lab environment), I think I'd like it better if they focus on just one big reveal about this character in the next season. Otherwise it piles up: the big bad, who controlled the other monsters in previous seasons all along, being gay as villain origin story, being Will Byers "evil twin", Eleven's real father etc. In the end he might also be the one, who killed JFK and hides the Amber Room in the Upside Down.

R365 Same here.

Also, this is just my opinion, but I appreciate the dramatic instincts of the Duffer Brothers who know that Will just coming out and saying "I'm gay" is not as dramatic as what they're doing - or as likely to generate the kind of attention this has caused. I see nothing wrong with dragging it out as the kid grows and changes. Showing Will's anguish and difficulty is good drama, but I guess some people don't like that. And as I've already said, it's a big monster adventure show with a huge cast and many subplots - not the Will Byers Show.

I'm quite curious what they will do about "Byler" in the last season. I don't think it can actually happen, because Mike seems so uninterested that he remains completely oblivious even when Will couldn't be more obvious. So he's either very dumb or only has eyes for Eleven or has in general never thought about boys that way. Or all of that. So if Mileven don't work out for some reason or if she dies, I still don't see him falling into Will's arms tbh. But also what to do with Will now? Forever the pining gay best friend? Self-sacrifice for the golden couple? Meh... I hope they find a good storyline for him.

If Henry is shown to be gay, that would basically mean the main theme of the entire show is homophobia/repressed homosexuality. Which would kind of make sense - "strange" is synonymous with "queer" after all.

And "upside down" with "inverted".

R371 Strange Loop meets Stranger Things

The Upside Down is a play on words. Upside (top) Down (bottom). Top vs. bottom.

The Upside Down is a bossy bottom into tentacle porn.

Who will fill Venaca's massive bussy?

Only Steve is man enough to do it.

r370 Definitely Byler will happen. The reason for Mike and Elven not working out being that he is gay.

Have you not seen El's pathetic attempts of kissing him? Pathetic on his part because he is gay and obviously really doesn't wanna. You might not remember because it last happened in season 3. This season she hasn't even tried kissing him through two increasingly romantic reunions, because she got - as you saw, as she said - that he doesn't love her, and is pretty close to breaking up.

And have you not seen how Mike looks at Will and at the love confession art he made for him? Please, it's basically official.

I did not see any indication that Mike is gay. In season 3 he had a typical teenage relationship with Eleven and he and his friends were obsessed with their girlfriends. Will was annoyed and wanted to play dungeons and dragons bc he's not interested in females (yet) and that constant fixation on their girlfriends annoyed him. He was either still immature and not at that stage in life were you're obsessed with the opposite sex or a closeted gay. After season 4 it's clear Mike is a doofus, kinda nerdy and emotionally slow, but I don't think he's gay. Will is obviously a closeted gayling.

How are you still arguing that Will was just immature and not interested in girls yet in S3, even when in the same post admitting he is gay. Why are you so weird about this?

And Mike doofus or not, should show a sexual interest in his girlfriend if he is into her. Like touch her face, ilke she does with him, showing an interest in kissing her open mouthed. She is always the one initiating this, he is always the one breaking it. Pay some attention. There is not indication given that Mike is straight.

And the show does usually give indication of sexual orientation for their characters, you don't have to assume. Nancy is into Jonathan and Steve but also Tom Cruise and they make a whole point about how that proves her sexual interests. Max is not just into Lucas but also likes to watch Steve undress and think about kissing Ralph Macchio and so on. That there is no indication for Mike is obviously intentional.

Maybe they don't show Mike's sexual interest per se, but they do show his*romantic* interest in El to the point of monomania.

[Quote]How are you still arguing that Will was just immature and not interested in girls yet in S3, even when in the same post admitting he is gay. Why are you so weird about this?

I said in season 3 he was either still immature and not interested in girls OR a closeted gay. In season 4 it became more obvious he's gay. Why is that weird? It's just a natural progression for teenagers.

Mike and Eleven haven't seen each other in months so I think it's normal they were a little reserved at first. They were all over each other in season 3. These are also still teenagers and Eleven is Mike's first girlfriend. They're still experiencing and probably doesn't even have sex yet.

Mike has a girlfriend so why would he need additional posters of female celebrities to prove his sexuality?

r 381 He has got a keen interest in El, definitely in saving and protecting her whenever that is in need, it's some knightly shit, but is it romantic if it doesn't include any sexual interest? Maybe if you argue he is a-sexual. Or he could be gay.

Was he less obsessed with saving and protecting Will in S1 and 2 btw.? No. S1 has a scene of Mike caressing on e of Will's drawings. S4 has a scene of crumpling up El's note and throwing it into the trash, which was weird.. Stranger Things really gets better when you pay attention.

"They were all over each other in season 3."

Yeah, no. Have you seen their last kiss? Why was it normal for Mike to keep his eyes open and not move a single muscle there? Have you seen their first kiss in S3? That was El trying to touch his shoulders and face only for him to remove her hands immediately and then break the kiss. That was all the kisses we saw. Hopper might have thought they were all over each other, but we saw the opposite.

No, they definitely do not have sex. They don't even make out anymore, and she never was allowed to touch his clothed shoulders while kissing, so.

Don't you think you're a little too obsessed with the love life of fictional teenagers, r384? Analyzing every kiss, touch or gesture?

I have seen it twice (except S4) and I do like to analyze it. Because it's pretty easy but makes the show way more fun. They're paralleling scenes, characters and conversations like crazy. Symbolism everywhere. And definitely every scene is used to flesh out and make a point about every involved character. It's film nerd heaven. Not the show to say "that character has a girlfriend, so they're stablished hetero" and not be wrong... Jesus, they even gave Robin's love interest a boyfriend just to drive THAT point home, I just realized, ha.

Mike's a total dork who is in love with Eleven, but lacks the courage and knowledge to express it.

They're not breaking Mike and Eleven up in the last season after they had a shitty love confession be the peak of the penultimate season. Which is a pity that relationship has been a romantic plot tumour for about 2 seasons now. Also Will really does deserve better than the horrible "best friend" who routinely forgets he exists in favor of his sister.

Eddie died by being attached by the upside down bats.

Exactly how does this make him a hero for Hawkins??

R381 Doesn't anybody remember the scene where MIke goes to California to visit and El gets mad at him because he wouldn't write "love, Mike" whenever he wrote her - and he seems not to be very into her. Although this seem to be just to have him later come around and tell her her loves her and she's his superhero.

I watched the first two seasons and then gave up. Maybe I should try again.

R391 Probably not, if you didn't like it by then.

r390 Yeah, he seems to not be very into her, although he calls her a superhero. Then after Will confesses his love to him, claiming to be quoting El, gives him a drawing he poured all his love in, claiming it is from El, and pushes him hard to tell El he loves her, he does tells El he loves her. And calls her a superhero, which is not whatsoever what she wants to hear. It's Cyrano de Bergerac. Don't be obtuse.

[quote] I also like the idea of a trinity of fathers: one who created her (Henry), one who shaped her (Papa) and one who rescues her (Hopper).

What, I don't get a mother fucking holy ghost?

If they really make Byler "endgame" (which I'm very skeptical about), that would be quite ground-breaking even today - putting an adolescent gay romance at the center of the biggest show on TV (and a genre show at that).

Exactly, it would be quite groundbreaking and be perceived as such. You don't think that's what the Duffer brothers (auteur creators of ST) want for themselves?

They are 90s kids and two of their biggest influences are "My So Called Life" and "Dawson's Creek", if you know what that means.

Bury your Gays coming up in season 5 of Stranger Things as they decide to be era appropriate!

No. That argument makes no sense. As much as saying they will kill Lucas to repeat the "black guy dying first" thing and be appropriately regressive. What is this strange vibe of masochistic homophobia here?

Murray comments.

After all he's been through, Will deserves someone better than Mike. Mike is a booby prize at best.

Twist! Mike is adopted. Mike's biological mother to be revealed in season 5.

The only way I could see for Byler to happen in s5 would for Eleven to die, Mike to admit he's bi at the very least and for them to essentially start dating over the grave of Wills sister and Mikes first love . Which sounds like a terrible basis for a relationship and the bleakest ending I can imagine.

The big romance among the four original kids isn't Lucas and Max, or Dustin and his annoying Mormon girlfriend. It's Mike and El. Maybe one of them will die, but if neither of them do, they have to end up together. Will and Mike ending up together is ridiculous.

*And PS - There will be (if the tradition continues) new characters introduced in Season 5. Don't forget.

r404 They said they're not adding any for once. So unless they sneakily bring a side character back to date Will he's probably staying single.

Yeah, see that dramatic last shot of Will and Make standing there right at the center together. framed by the very far away Joyce/Hopper and Jonathan/Nancy couples? Which makes the whole Byers family standing there far apart with somebody... El of course walking off on her own. An accident? I though it was pretty on the nose.

Agree with R400! Mike is pitiful. Will deserves better.

r403 What kind of rule is that? Do you have a few example shows that worked out that way? That really contradicts my TV experience.

Will should get what he wants There is no new characters, but he couldn't move on from Mike in one season anyway, as in love as he is shown to be and this being build up for 4 seasons. Even with a huge time jump, it would simply make no sense narratively.. He gets Mike or he can suffer til the end, two options. .

I still think he should claim this walking closet case by right of conquest after Eleven murders Angela.

R408 I'm not saying it's a rule. But the Mike-El relationship was set up in season 1 when they were kids. Four seasons later, they're still together at the end of season 4. There were some hints Mike could be gay (or just not love El any more) in season 4. But it would be pulling quite a switch on the audience to make him come out as gay in the last season and reciprocate Will's love. If it seems likely to you, feel free to explain.

It'll be interesting to see them try to do an entire season without introducing any new characters (even supporting) at all. I forgot the Duffer brothers said that.

r399

My introduction to Gelman were sick and weird bits on the "Comedy Bang Bang" podcast, it's funny to see him earnestly commenting on teen ships.

He seems sick and weird.

r411 It is likely, because Mike/Eleven happen out of nowhere in season 1, wan they met a week prior in exciting circumstances, and their romantic relationship was shown to go from bad to worse in S3 and 4 and obviously unfulfilling even if they do have a strong connection. Obviously that's an arc that will lead somewhere: them deciding to be platonic and suddenly it will fit, I imagine. Or just deciding to be fiends and it will be really touching and then she still forcibly stops him from sacrificing himself and sacrifices herself instead like in S1. Idk, I don't have to write this, but it should lead somewhere other than them fumbling their way to a relationship that seems weirdly off and never made any of them truly happy forever, because there is nothing satisfying about that.

It's likely because the Will/Mike relationship was set up since season one and became more and more obvious through the seasons. This is an arc leading somewhere, and most satisfying would be big damn romance. Otherwise who really cares that Will is in love with Mike, we know that already. We can just nod along when he brings it up in S5, where is the drama? Also they have been shown to be in sync romantically. You remember the van scene in S4 in which Will confesses his love, using El as a sockpuppet, and Mike just melts because it is exactly what he want to hear about himself? The person he looks at while melting is Will, it looks like love. And he beams delighted at Will's painting, calling it amazing in general and clearly loving Will's vision of him to bits. What was the point of all this? This shows his love for El?

This is gonna happen, there is just no question.

R415 I've been watching for 4 seasons and I never once thought it was inevitable or even likely Will and MIke would become a romantic couple. But you do you.

Ok great but why is Eddie seen as a hero for getting killed by the bats?

r417 The fuck do you want Dustin to say to the poor guy? "Yeah no his death was pretty pointless at the end of the day. Least we don't have to spend the last season hiding him from the police now . anyway here's a memento".

R417 Wasn't the idea that, rather than go back to safety, as he could have, he stayed to create a diversion, and sacrificed himself?

R418, no need to be crass.

Even before Dustin conveyed the news, were get to witness Eddie teasing the bats toward him with that guitar solo, and running to get their attention, and finally letting them kill him...all with heroic movie music playing... The audience is also supposed to believe there was a point to this.

Just wondering if I missed an important plot point that explains how this is actually heroic. I mean, he had an opportunity to leave the upside down, but he went back for the bats.

R420 The point was to distract the bats so Nancy & co could do their part of the plan.

They might have flown back and attacked Nancy, Steve, Robin and kill them before they could kill Vecna. Which was the point of distracting the bats in the first place.

But yes, it could have been done better, so that we would have seen Eddie's heroism narrowly avoided the whole mission failing.

I guess some of us figured it out and to others it was rocket science.

El will die in the finale, she'll sacrifice herself. What's the alternative? The army hunting her down and killing her? Mike will mourn her for the rest of his life, he dies while still a young adult (alcoholism?) and Will (after nearly dying in the finale) comes back for the funeral. Joyce and Hopper live on a farm and raise goats, she makes pottery or weaves. Nancy is big city newspaper reporter. Steve becomes the town mayor. Dustin has a pet store (?). Lucas is the Jr high basketball coach. Nobody's heard from Jonathan for a long time.

That does make some sense at least for the narrative. I guess I failed to notice that.

But even so, I guess I struggle with the bat issue still. We don't really see Nancy and Steve benefiting from clear skies, not r do we see the other group benefiting, Max, Lucas and his sister. Nobody said "where are the bats? They're gone! Let's proceed!"... So his death still seems fruitless in a way

Is Will farsighted? I get the attraction to your best friend bit but when your best friend looks like Ileana Douglas, I think it's time for a trip to Pearle Vision.

That isn't nice, R426. Ileana Douglas is far more attractive than Mike.

And Ileana Douglas looks like Marie Windsor. Therefore, Mike looks like Marie Windsor.

Marie

Poor Will still has heart eyes for the first friend he ever made who tried his hardest to save him when he was kidnapped. Eleven is similarly brainwashed but since Mike is the first guy who was ever nice to her that didn't get shot afterwards she's probably got no hope of snapping out of it.

What about us?

r430 Her chances are far better than Will's. She has already shown some interest in other human beings and she only recently joined society.

Imo, Mike and Will have as much chance of ending up together as Robin and Nancy. But I guess we'll see how it ends up playing out!

R395 How would they put an adolescent gay romance at the center of the biggest show on TV? We've now seen the very straight romance between Mike and Eleven for full 4 seasons. No matter if they pull a last minute Byler couple out of their hats it would be at most a more or less unexpected turn and sure, endgame. But the focus of the show was still Mike and Eleven's romance. I mean, we even saw more romantic interaction between Joyce and Hopper so far than anything coming from Mike towards Will.

[quote] But the focus of the show was still Mike and Eleven's romance.

Romance-wise, maybe. But the main focus is the friendship of the kids, them fighting against the monsters of the Upside Down World, the kids growing up, Hopper & Joyce, etc.

There is endless mixed signals of Mike to Will, including a close up handhold. Mike's dramatic friendship confession "Asking you to be my friend was the best thing I ever done *single dear*" being the one thing that pulled Will out of possession enough to morse the solution to the whole season's problem, the request to go "crazy together", endless flirting in S4 and confessions like "Hawkins is not the same without you" "I felt like I lost you" And them generally being clued together 90% of the time in what seems way too close for any normal's person's comfort. What more could you possibly ask for from a closeted kid?

[R 433] I think you are being over generous. Will and Mike have as much of a chance as ending up together as Nancy and Mike. Zero.

R435 Oh yes, I just meant in terms of romance. Otherwise you're right, the kids' friendship and supernatural elements are the focus of the show.

Fun fact: The show is mostly about being gay.

Eww, Will can do much better than Mike. It better not go any further than an unrequited crush.

I actually wish they had introduced a potential secondary love interest for Will this season that could have been developed into a closet key next season. But I suppose Noah is lucky Will was even in this season at all given the number of lines he had.

Also, Eleven and Mike's romance is extremely dull. They're clearly running out of things to do with it.

Terrible show. Just bad. Meh.

The problem with Mike and Eleven is that their relationship was cute in s1 and s2 and the development took place while the actual plot was happening. From s3 on their relationship became the plot. s3 opened with them making out, its said repeatedly they ditch all their friends to be together, and the fallout from breakup is pretty much all the kids other than Dustin deal with for half the season. And this season again Mike not being able to say I love you kicks off their entire character arc. So Mike and Eleven end up looking like wangsting bitches in a soap opera.

Even twitter seems to have turned against them, and white teenage girl with superpowers dating an attractive boyfriend (according to his fangirls at least) should be like catnip to them.

Maya Hawke - Thérèse

Yes - Mike and 11 had the puppy love thing going in season 1, but you don't get the impression it is anything deeper than that even though Mike tried to make us believe that in the somewhat painful I love you speech. Her flashback scenes with Max seemed a lot deeper than her scenes with Mike. I think part of the problem is that Mike is also one of the weaker actors. 11 has also kind of run her course, they do a variation of the same thing with her every season. Max was a more interesting character this season and more nuanced actor. I wish they would have left 11 without her powers and not had yet another season finale waiting for her to save the day.

The Russia plot could have been completely dropped and it would have been a much better and suspenseful show just focusing on Hawkins. As much as I like Hopper, he also kind of ran his course and they should have had his sacrificial death be real. I don't really care about the Joyce - Hopper romance. It seemed kind of forced when she was suddenly interested in Hopper romantically, even though her boyfriend just died and she had shown no interest in Hopper like that the first two seasons. This show has a bit of the Harry Potter problem where it feels it needs to pair off everyone and that young high school couple romances are deep and meaningful. It does look like they are setting up a realistic ending for Nancy-Steve-Jonathon where she knows neither are right for her and she heads off to college not attached to a high school boyfriend. Although, it would not shock me if one of them dies and Nancy tearfully lies and nods her yes when the dying ex-boyfriend says -- it would have been us -- wouldn't it Nancy?

That said, I actually did enjoy most of the Vecna stuff and thought some of that stuff was the best the show had been in years. Of course, I will remember nothing when season 5 premieres three or four years from now...

While you heard mainly about the Kate Bush, thought they did a great job with the Journey song at the end of episode 8, tweaking it just slightly making it seem pretty creepy. A lot of the Freddy Vecna Krueger stuff was done pretty well.

[quote] The Russia plot could have been completely dropped and it would have been a much better and suspenseful show just focusing on Hawkins.

I did exactly that and fast forwarded through every single Russia scene R444. The show still slogged quite a bit. I didn’t find Eddie or the forty year old actor playing him in a ridiculously bad wig as nearly as charming as everyone else so every scene he appears was a drag. Also FFed through any scene that obnoxious Jason kid appeared in. Really, any tangential new character that showed up got the FF button, stat. It made the running times much more bearable.

^Yeah, it's getting crowded and they add too many new characters each season. Billy, Max, Robin, Eddie, Erica, Murray, Dimitri etc. I can hardly remember their names and had to look them up. They already had a big cast in season one and they should just focus more on the core group of friends and parents.

The show runners said explicitly there will be no new characters in the final season, they’re going to focus on the core group defeating Vecna (a new character this season.)

Hopefully all of the characters will be in Hawkins next year and it won't be so split up. Also, hopefully some of the newer characters will have moved away. There is no reason for Argyle to be taking up time just so he can be their homage to the stoner while not having one true human reaction to what is happening. As much as I like Robin, she is probably not needed, or at the very least I do need her potential girlfriend Molly Ringwald taking up time from the other characters (I do like Robin's interactions with Nancy and Steve). It would be interesting to see if they have her interact with Will and deduce what he is going through.

I agree that they jock subplot could have been cut, there was enough going on that they did not need them to add to the drama and suspense and were such uninteresting characters. Same with most of what happened in CA or with the CA crew.

I wish they would have left 11 depowered and forced them to deal with the issues instead of having each season end with 11 having to grimace, summon her powers and possibly sacrifice herself to save the day.

Another vote for no more Argyle. Let him go join the LDS and marry Susie's big sis or something. Just, no more of him.

Argyle was annoying as fuck. But I guess they needed some comic relief bc Jonathan, Will and Mike are bland motherfuckers with the group dynamic.

*without

r448 They've said s5 is set completely in Hawkins and they're going back to the s1 character groups so that's;

Mike, El, Lucas and Dustin

Jonathan, Nancy Steve

Joyce & Hopper

Depending on how literal they were being with that group comment that leaves Will, Robin, Erica, Murray and Argyle as outliers since they were either missing for most of that season or didn't exist yet.

[quote]I did exactly that and fast forwarded through every single Russia scene [R444]. The show still slogged quite a bit. I didn’t find Eddie or the forty year old actor playing him in a ridiculously bad wig as nearly as charming as everyone else so every scene he appears was a drag. Also FFed through any scene that obnoxious Jason kid appeared in.

Haha. Why did you even watch a show you enjoyed so little? So you could talk about it here? If I felt that way I wouldn't waste my time.

Interesting how they deliberately make Mike and El's relationship not work not work once they are together.. Weird how they chose to not give Will any love interest, even though everyone else has one and they wasted no time adding one for Robin either. Weird choices. Wonder if there could be a reason for that. Nah, that would just be ridiculous.

Because I enjoy the core group of characters still, and at times when it is firing on all cylinders it is quite compelling and spectacular TV, R453.

R444 Apart from Max's storyline (also due to Sadie's acting) personally I enjoyed the lab flashbacks the most this season, I think. The whole MKUltra experiment thing was an interesting plot line from the start and I feel there are still a lot of mysteries about what exactly Brenner and the others did in the lab, how they created the kids, if there ever was an end goal etc. While the flashbacks didn't provide that many answers apart from Henry/001, they gave us a better understanding of Brenner's role and life in the lab, I think. And I think the showdown between One and Eleven in episode seven was great, JCB did a pretty good job, his whole face changed once he realised Eleven won't join him. Still curious why he seemed especially attached to her and not any of the other kids.

[quote]Interesting how they deliberately make Mike and El's relationship not work not work once they are together.. Weird how they chose to not give Will any love interest, even though everyone else has one and they wasted no time adding one for Robin either. Weird choices. Wonder if there could be a reason for that. Nah, that would just be ridiculous.

They've given Will a love interest, right?

I agree with some of what you're saying, I even thought Mike being so uninterested in El was telegraphing a gay thing. But if Will and Mike end up together in any way...that would be too unreal. I hope it doesn't happen. I think (hope) it's more like they're throwing out red herrings to keep you guessing. But not actually going all the way with it.

R445 lol poor Joseph Quinn, I think he was only 28 when they shot this? I was surprised that I also didn't connect as much with Eddie - he provided some comedic elements, but all in all there was too much frenetic energy for me to take him seriously. Maybe my expectations were too high, because I knew about the hype before starting season 4. Or maybe I just don't find him hot like all the twitter fangirls, even though Joseph Quinn seems like a nice enough guy.

R548 Well I assume there are straight male fans of this show who liked Joe not because he's cute or hot. He's a very good actor. I wouldn't think DL would like him - he's playing an uninhibited, not very educated or intellectual high school metalhead, which is hardly the DL type.

He and some others on this show amaze me with their ability to do American accents, when they're English or Australian. They're so good at it - as earlier English actors never seemed to have been.

*And he was also stretching as an actor to play a younger and probably very different - from himself - American type. He doesn't really look young enough, but he can't do much about that.

Do many DLers find Joe Keery cute?

r461 It really depends on his hair.

r461

He's charming enough, but I don't find him attractive at all, and am baffled by how many people do. He looks like a "Bob's Burgers" character.

Joe Kerry is attractive, great body and usually great hair. It adds to the overall appeal that the character he plays is so loveable, at least from the end of season 1 on.

What baffles me is the attraction some have to Charlie Heaton. I like his character Jonathan but the actor is not attractive, especially in season 4, but really never.

R464 Charlie Heaton always looks like he’s one snort or heroin injection away from death. He looks like he’s in his late 30s/40s already, I’m assuming from heavy drug use. I don’t get the appeal.

Even on the show, he’s a stoner in season 4 with no drive and doing nothing but hanging out with another stoner. They seemed to make his character mostly irrelevant at this point, except for the ONE scene where he hints that he accepts Will as he is. He barely has a role on the show now, which is why I thought they’d kill him off, but they didn’t. It would’ve been better if they had so he doesn’t end up a slacker stoner living in the basement for the rest of his life like they’re hinting he will be.

I'd say there was a period around the early seasons where he was above average when he actually tried. Granted at this point the amount of Colombian happy powder him and Dyer have taken has really taken its toll. Frankly I don't think any of the actors are "hot". They were never meant to be. The Duffers said they went out of their way to try hire normal looking actors so you didn't get overly attractive looking small town nerds like most other shows seem to do. Not sure they could have predicted the amount of thirst tweets the actors get now.

Everytime Heaton or Dyer are on-screen I wonder if they will make it to the after party, post series. Both are that sickly looking.

He really looks bad. Maybe he had Covid?

I always think: Rob Lowe smoked, did drugs, drank, all the stuff people here always are sure ruin your looks, and even when he was doing all that, he looked great.

If they're going back to the core group for the last season--it has to include Will because he has that Mindflayer connection still, then they should have killed off Max when they had the chance.

Did they actually say they were going back to the core group, or just that they weren't introducing any new characters in the final season?

R468. I always thought Lowe was pretty unattractive actually. He's definitely had a lot of work done over his career.

Heaton has premature old face and terrible hair. Sad.

R471 Granted not everyone thought/thinks Rob is attractive, but that wasn't my point. Did he look unhealthy, pale, wrinkled, eyebags, bloated, whatever? I'm sure he's had work done, too, but I was referring to when he was younger and not living a healthy lifestyle. Probably at the time he had not had work done.

R472. Heaton's been hit hard I agree. Quite quickly too. Genetics can be a bitch.

Lowe might have been hit hard later in life and covered it up with work.

R471 = Judd Nelson, trying to get a Suddenly Susan reboot off the ground.

I caught up on season 4 while in quarantine with COVID. Watched season 1 and thought it was a pretty surface level pastiche, wasn’t too charmed by the characters or engaged by the very vague plotting.

I have to say, I kind of enjoyed S4, bringing in severely lowered expectations. I think skipping 2 and 3 allowed me to fill in the blanks in the characters and relationships that made them FEEL richer, though I know for a fact none of that work was actually done in the intervening seasons. It’s a show with a LOT of characters, but just a thin layer of characterization to spread amongst the collective.

Individual actors definitely brought more charisma and life than was on the page - Joe Keery, Maya Hawke and Gaten Whatshisname had good energy. Will remains a nothingburger, but you can’t help feeling sorry for him with that haircut, puppy dog eyes and speech to Mike on the van. He deserves a better coming out story than he’ll inevitably get.

I also liked that this season (having found S1 a complete failure in melding the psychic kids plot with the upside down and monster storyline) kind of pulled together a retcon that made all these thin, disparate plot threads lead from one source. Would it piss me off if I was ever truly invested in this show? Sure. But as a very casual viewer it broadly addresses my main complaint out of S1.

R473 Genetics are also a bitch in the Lowe bloodline! His sons inherited none of their dad’s attractive features.

R459 Yes, Joseph Quinn portrayed him fine. He's a LAMDA graduate, I never expected him to be a bad actor. I just didn't connect to the character himself that much - even though I actually was a high school metalhead myself.

R461 Joe Keery is pretty cute as Steve within the Stranger Things universe. Outside of Stranger Things.. yeah, he's okay, but nothing special to me. I agree with R466 I think the actors were always meant to portray normal people and not be exceptionally hot. I think that works for the show very well, makes you connect more and feels less "artificial".

[quote]I think the actors were always meant to portray normal people and not be exceptionally hot. I think that works for the show very well, makes you connect more and feels less "artificial".

Yeah and it gives them the chance to cast based on talent or personality, not looks. So you get actors who may not have had the same chances otherwise.

I love Teen Wolf, which is the opposite, almost every major character was good looking - even the parents, and older actors. A lot of them were very talented - but Jeff Davis even said when you're casting a teen show it helps to have good looking people. So it's nice to see that turned upside-down.

*Interesting, though, that when they do cast conventinoally hnadsome types like Cary Elwes and Mason Dye, they're the bad guys.

R479 Intersting observation, it's true. Also Dacre Montgomery (Billy) is quite conventionally handsome. Even Jamie Campbell Bower, while more of a type than typical hunk, was a 2010s tumblr heartthrob.

The Duffer Bros themselves are pretty handsome. I never really saw them much until recently, I thought they would be geeky looking nerds..

Both Duffers are very good looking!

Joe Keery is easily the most natural actor and was able to rise from the dubious boyfriend to wrangler of the younger kids (having a driver's license is an ongoing plot device). I'm not sure how much range he has besides "good guy that you root for" but right now he makes a lot of scenes better. Whereas Nancy (whom I do like, just not so much) has to stretch for "sure I know all about guns, am a crack shot, I have a pistol on my closet shelf") and Will's older brother (" I'm interested in photography"), just let him be a no-hope stoner who loves his brother and who Nancy wouldn't have looked at in a million years. Their relationship was forced because of course a girl her age has to be in a relationship! and it couldn't be Steve again for some reason.

The Duffers are identical twins, though one seems a little heavier at the moment.

They released the script for the van scene between Mike and Will if anyone's still here. Noah's acting really did make that scene apparently since he was originally just meant to stare sadly out the window.

I think I actually prefer it the way it's written in the script. I found Will's weepiness over the top.

R486 Makes for great memes though

Why did they release the scene?

r488 Basically a bunch of twitter Byler shippers ended up paying about $7k to 8flix which is a script hosting site that's been around for nearly a decade to get the script for this episode. Because they were hoping there'd be some hint in this scene that Mike secretly returns Wills feelings on some level. Anyway Netflix ended up saying the whole thing was a scam and they knew nothing about it. But I guess they realized releasing scripts to scenes people wanted to see ever few months or so was a good way to keep up interest so that's what they're doing now.

Long story short Twitter fangirls be crazy.

Just wow.

7K, wow, seems like a waste.

Re: R489

That's one of the most pathetic things I've heard in a long time that didn't involve being a fan of Donald Trump.

I’m doing a rewatch since I fast forwarded through the boring scenes first time. There was a lot of strange editing, more time given to endless Hopper in jail and some things are missing like no scenes of the rest of the team finding out about Eddie. Granted he wasn’t a longtime friend, but he seemed to blend easily into the Steve, Nancy and Robin group and they liked him. I suspect that scene was scripted and filmed, it just didn’t make the final cut. If the Duffers were smart, in addition to releasing scripts pages, they should release scenes that were edited out due to already overlong episodes.

Also, does anyone think the Covid restrictions contributed to the characters being so separated for most of the season? It seemed like they had various pods - Russia - California - Hawkins, etc. so they could contain possible outbreaks?

I’m really curious to see season 5. Not just for the story, but I’m wondering how much the Duffers will adapt the story in response to viewer demand. Now I know they wouldn’t want to ADMIT to pandering to public pressure, but Stranger Things is a huge cash cow for Netflix and they don’t want to alienate large amounts of viewers. Will Netflix say, for example, “You guys gotta figure out a way to bring Eddie back…” will they do it? There is so much Eddie merchandise that is flooding Amazon, but almost none produced by Netflix. Yet Netflix has at least two posters of Fred for sale. Who wants a poster of Fred? I think the Eddie character’s popularity caught them off guard. Especially with the financial issues Netflix has had, I wonder if they don’t realize they have got to have a huge fan favorite back in season 5 to keep those subscribers. I don’t think Will’s sexuality has quite captured the public’s imagination in the same way, but again, if the public demand is there, they’d be smart to work that into the storyline. As someone pointed out upthread, this is a money making business at its core.

I've realized why the character of Eddie didn't really make sense to me. He'd be an outsider at school *now*, when heavy metal is a niche interest. But back in the 80s, when it was mainstream, he'd have been super popular (at least in Indiana, which isn't exactly preppy haven).

R494 I wasn't alive at the time ST is set in, so I can't say much about how mainstream metal was back then. But I think even without his music taste Eddie was a bit of a weirdo. I realise that they made him into a loveable weirdo, but still.. in his intro scenes I thought why is this guy jumping around on furniture.

However I'm aware I'm speaking as someone, who for some reason didn't get on the Eddie hype train. I think he was nice enough and his situation and death tragic, but I didn't feel strongly emotionally connected to him. Maybe it's also because I don't get the Joseph Quinn attraction. He's likeable and wish him all the best, but he looks like a totally normal white guy in his late 20s to me. I was surprised by how feral women went for him, acting like he's the hottest man they've ever laid eyes upon.

[quote] Also, does anyone think the Covid restrictions contributed to the characters being so separated for most of the season?

Nah they do that every season. The cast is too big, and they go wild with the massive budget Netflix gives them. It'd be less noticeable if they managed to give some of the groups more interesting stories and tied it in better to the main plot so it felt like everything was progressing at the same rate. They managed it OK in s2 and s3 but stuff like the Russia plotline this season felt like it only existed because they had to pay Harbour and Ryder anyway and it'd be weird to have them just disappear for a few episodes.

[quote]I wasn't alive at the time ST is set in, so I can't say much about how mainstream metal was back then.

It was pretty big. Most of the (white) boys I went to school with in the Stranger Things years were into Iron Maiden, Metallica, Black Sabbath, AC/DC, Ratt, Dokken, Anthrax, Scorpions. The more "pop-friendly" side of metal, i.e., Poison and Cinderella, was yet to come in the later '80s...as were Guns N' Roses, who arguably had the best songs.

That was the only music those kids would be openly enthusiastic about. When we all grew up, I found out that some of them had been listening to other things they were keeping quiet about, like Prince.