Jonathan Van Ness: Because I'm nonbinary, I'm suspect to misogyny

asshole

So he's trans now?

[quote]So he's trans now?

Yes, and describes xyrself as "very femme" despite the beard.

BUY MY HAIR PRODUCT!!!

[...]

"'As a nonbinary trans person who is very femme, I feel that I've faced a lot of the misogyny,' JVN explained."

I'm sorry. I thought "nonbinary" and "trans" were two completely different things. Now a person can be BOTH?

Most homophobia and hatred of effeminate men stems from misogyny

Love it when the right-wing, anti-trans posters pretend to care about women

Same people who voted for the pussygrabber

Hell in a hand basket, kids. Hell in a hand basket.

[...]

[quote] I'm suspect to misogyny

Oh, [italic]dear.[/italic]

R5- STOP THE INSANITY!!

Also, wasn't he a regular ol' "gay man" just 5 minutes ago? Was he/she/they/xir secretly suffering all this time, and is at last his/her/they/xir real self as a 'nonbinary trans femme.'

I've tried to understand and support this movement, but it's stretching credulity as time goes on.

He's sort of correct. Huge numbers of men, both straight and gay, look down on feminine men, and feel there's nothing wrong with letting their contempt show. It's very much bound up with sexism, hatred of women, and contempt for anything feminine, because any sensible person sees how closely tied homophobia and sexism really are.

He's not precisely correct in his terminology though, because the word "misogyny" does only apply to women. But then, the English language doesn't have a term for "contempt for a feminine person, whatever their sex or gender identification", even though it should.

I liked that guy before he became famous.

[quote] misogyny doesn't only affect women

Uh, what?!

I remember when JVN got criticized for shilling for UberEats right after Uber helped pass Prop 22 in California, and he didn't seem to understand that Uber and UberEats were the same company. I think he just isn't very bright.

I thought being non-binary means that you dont indetify with being either male or female? So what is he exactly trans from?

R6 Considering that nonbinary is a completely made up identity, they can be anything they want.

R18- No. It means you're living in another dimension.

I'm trans-ghost!

[quote]I've tried to understand and support this movement, but it's stretching credulity as time goes on.

It never had any credulity to begin with. At least not to anyone living in reality.

What is this "non-binary" foolishness with guys with a beard who are obviously MALE?

You can be a swishy male and that does not make you "non-binary"!

Jonathan Van Ness isn't non-binary.

He's just a big GURLEEN!

They forced me to wear a dress to promote a movie. You're wearing one by choice.

Wait. If xir is nonbinary, then he's not female (assigned or identified as). So how can misogyny affect him?

If people assume he's a femme gay guy (which he is not, right?) then I think any issue he might have just be good ol' homophobia?

R26 - careful with your pronouns. Here is the correct usage:

"If they are nonbinary, then she's not female (assigned or identified as). So how can misogyny affect zir?

If people assume she's a femme gay guy (which they are not, right?) then I think any issue xe might have just be good ol' homophobia?"

So much mental illness. AKA transholes. It's nauseating and I'm sick of seeing and hearing about them. Truly.

He has a point - femininity in is looked down upon. But then he mixes it up with a nonsensical idea like non-binary.

Everyone is non-binary. Everybody. We all have qualities and behaviors traditionally associated with the opposite sex. It doesn't make anyone special.

So, get help for your issues, r28. Getting so upset at what others define themselves is not healthy for you. You don't need to think about what strangers do or wear. Did you know that? Now are free to live your life!

Is the earth flat or round, R30?

Listen, a stinky pussy is a "stinky pussy"...that's not misogyny, honey.

I truly despise him. He even made disclosing his HIV status annoying.

[quote]But then, the English language doesn't have a term for "contempt for a feminine person, whatever their sex or gender identification", even though it should.

Femmephobia works.

[quote]Everyone is non-binary. Everybody. We all have qualities and behaviors traditionally associated with the opposite sex. It doesn't make anyone special.

Go educate yourself! I'm more special than everybody!

I even made misogyny about myself!

Are there any “nonbinary” people that aren’t completely insufferable, self absorbed, attention whores?

MARY!

JVN is special ed. It's very obvious, and his brand is to parrot whatever is "correct" so that liberal white women feel good about themselves for following and buying his books/haircare products. JVN literally failed out of Arizona in his first semester.

[quote]"It's really cool!" Van Ness said. "The older I get, the more I think that I'm non-binary — I'm gender nonconforming. Like, some days I feel like a man, but then other days I feel like a woman."

This was him in 2019.

But now we've progressed and other trans non binary people have taken huge steps forward. Like Mae Martin, who recently said:

[quote]I just feel like myself. I don’t even feel nonbinary. I just wake up, have a coffee and go to work.

R27, thank you for your corrections. I apologize profusely.

I clearly need to do better. And I will.

I feel like my only option is rehab. Even though I don't drink.

[quote] when the right-wing, anti-trans posters pretend to care about women

R8 Because a man in a dress demanding to be called a woman is so "progressive" and cares deeply about the women he's demeaning and insulting.

[quote] If people assume she's a femme gay guy (which they are not, right?) then I think any issue xe might have just be good ol' homophobia?"

If people assume that a man putting on a dress becomes a woman and should be addressed as "she", appropriate pronouns should be the least of their worries.

Progressives realise think that Jonathan Van Ness is promoting right wing Republican values with his "some days I feel like a man, some days I feel like a woman" crap.

What does feeling like a woman mean? Being Speaker in the House Of Representatives or Vice President? Being Mayor of Atlanta, a 23 time grand slam tennis champion, the most Oscar nominated actor of all time or Prime Minister of New Zealand?

Does it mean being paid less because you have a vagina, expected to pick up carer responsibilities for your kids and parents, at risk of sexual assault and harassment in a way no men will ever fully understand?

Or does it mean making your hair look pretty, painting your nails and wearing nice bright colours?

God this NB shit has gotten out of control.

I respect trannies more tbh.

Pick a fucking lane.

This is why Democrats are gonna lose in November. Fucking pronouns!

[quote] Progressives realise think that Jonathan Van Ness is promoting right wing Republican values with his "some days I feel like a man, some days I feel like a woman" crap.

R43 "Right wing Republican values"???? Huh????

R44 I agree. The Democrats have severely miscalculated how woke the country wants their leaders to be. Most Americans are not impressed by the president appointing trannies to key positions.

These threads are exhausting.

[quote][R44] I agree. The Democrats have severely miscalculated how woke the country wants their leaders to be. Most Americans are not impressed by the president appointing trannies to key positions.

I'm sure a lot of Americans consider Dr Rachel Levine to be qualified and suitable for the role she was appointed to.

The problem is insisting that she is "female" and "the first female to hold the role" when she clearly isn't female and spent the first 50 years of her life as a heterosexual married man who fathered children and is now held up as an inspiration lesbian.

Americans are not impressed with a political ideology that does not listen to their concerns.

Americans are not impressed with a political ideology that berates them into silence.

Americans are not impressed with a political ideology that challenges their common sense and logic.

Americans are not impressed with a political ideology that claims to be different but is, in reality, more of the same.

"Everyone is non-binary. Everybody. We all have qualities and behaviors traditionally associated with the opposite sex. It doesn't make anyone special."

Almost everyone, but yes. 98-99% of human beings are a mix of masculine and feminine qualities. IMHO being at least somewhat non-binary is the human norm, and the few who are completely masculine or completely feminine are outliers, unusual. But unfortunately, they're the ones who get held up ideals, and everyone else is not only told to be like them, they're told they're inferior if they aren't like the 1-2%!

It's all very silly, and frankly, so is the question of gender identification if you look at it purely logically. Logically, gender presentation is unimportant in the greater scheme and a person's biological sex has little to do with it, and if everyone would just forget about what they identify as and just be who they are, then the world would be a more sensible place. Don't identify as male or female or nonbinary, identify as you!

R49 👏

So don't wear a skirt, Or go to Scotland and wear kilts. And the word is subject, not suspect, you fool.

JVN is correct in that homophobia is deeply rooted in misogyny.

[...]

R54 Is Cinescatch a tranny? I knew there was a reason I hated him/her/it.

[...]

[quote]As a nonbinary trans person who is very femme, I feel that I've faced a lot of the misogyny,' JVN explained. 'I'm obviously not a woman so I don't know what it is to be a woman and that's not what I'm saying, but misogyny doesn't only affect women,' he continued.

Please shut up.

He didn't say anything wrong. Women have spent years dubiously arguing that homophobia is rooted in misogyny, thus robbing our history and making it theirs. So now they must applaud the argument he's making if they don't want to be hypocritical.

Epic beard. He actually has great facial symmetry in a smile. Too bad he thinks he's a woman.

And I am often subject to racism! It's a cruel world.

[...]

[...]

[quote]He didn't say anything wrong. Women have spent years dubiously arguing that homophobia is rooted in misogyny, thus robbing our history and making it theirs. So now they must applaud the argument he's making if they don't want to be hypocritical.

And now gay men with "stereotypical behaviour" i.e mincing effeminate swishy queens are being encouraged by people who think of themselves as progressive to believe they're not men but women! They're not male, they're female!

This bitch is annoying as fuck! Constant Attention Whore!

As soon as we were encouraged to believe that some women have penises, I knew that we had arrived at our inevitable destination of Crazy Town and that there was no going back.

JVN can avoid misogyny by changing his clothes. Cis-women can't because it's structurally built into the system.

Bitch, you are a gender non conforming man. They've always existed and they carry their own burdens, which are distinct from those experienced by women.

Don't buy into untenable ideological bullshit. "Non binary" is fucking regressive, untenable nonsense.

I can take JVN in micro-doses, only. But he's survived some heavy shi*t so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[quote] Don't buy into untenable ideological bullshit. "Non binary" is fucking regressive, untenable nonsense.

Well, his country (US) officially acknowledges the fucking regressive, untenable nonsense bullshit concept of 'nonbinary', by giving them the X markers (not a man nor a woman) on their passports.

[quote]Most homophobia and hatred of effeminate men stems from misogyny.

Okay, but does it follow, then, that homophobia as it relates to hatred of masculine lesbians stems from misandry? It seems the straight world is more tolerant of feminine "lipstick" lesbians than butch lesbians.

[...]

I've been identifying as a millionaire for the past 3 years and my bank refuses to affirm my wealth and deposit a minimum of $1 million into my account.

Grievances written to the ACLU have, thus far, been summarily ignored and dismissed.

This is literal violence.

[quote] does it follow, then, that homophobia as it relates to hatred of masculine lesbians stems from misandry? It seems the straight world is more tolerant of feminine "lipstick" lesbians than butch lesbians.

R70 no, hatred of butch women is still a form of misogyny—a bitterness and contempt expressed toward those females who refuse to conform to a conservative sexual stereotype of an acceptable and ideal woman, I.e. femme, gentle and caring, somewhat subservient and sexually-available to/dependent on a man, etc.

Lipsticks are more tolerated, as you put it, because they pass as an ideal straight woman in the eyes of men, and because straight men can enjoy looking at the way they doll themselves up, because in the eyes of the Hetero Male everything and everyone that exists is there to meet his standards and give him a measure of pleasure and comfort.

There is a case to say that very butch lesbians—the ones you’d mistake for a man, at first—also induce a kind of instinctual gay panic in more limited straight men. Per the fuzzy logic of a dick-owner: “She’s a woman (r: potential fuck object), but I don’t find her sexually-pleasing (r: she’s butch), except she has a pussy and I love pussy to the point of derangement, only she really looks and acts like a guy, so if I’d potentially fuck her if I couldn’t find any other pussy, does that make me a little gay?”

a biological man is a man. Not a woman. Not a "non-binary." You are literally a male on the male end of the binary.

ANYTHING ELSE IS FUCKING INSANITY. GET HELP.

[...]

If people just kept the gender identity and biological sex thing firmly separate we would be fine. And protect the rights to safety, acceess and equality of biological gender. I'm actually quite happy with multiple genders but I'm mixed Native and white. Understand categories as fluid and gender too. But saying biological men are women rather than say third gender identified is nuts.

[quote] If people just kept the gender identity and biological sex thing firmly separate we would be fine.

That pretence (not talking about you) has been nothing but a joke. "It's okay to call Richard Leland Rachel Levine, William Lia Thomas, Gavin Laurel Hubbard, etc. as women because gender is social blah blah; you still have sex identity like male and female"

Really? Once they had the non-conservatives to blindly accept that as new 21st century truth, they moved on to the next thing. The so-called respected media and government now officially call the mentioned men as "female" too. Repeatedly.

[quote] If people just kept the gender identity and biological sex thing firmly separate

Gender and sex are identical. The issue is arbitrary semantics. It's far more edgey, attention grabbing, whatever to scream "Look at me I'm non-binary" than to be completely accurate and scream "Look at me! I'm gender non-conforming!

PLEASE! Misogyny from femme men is not uncommon. Case in point, every fucking fish joke on this forum, victim blaming (the Orsolya Gaal thread) etc.

R79 Same with translunatics. It's the method to the madness of women erasure. If women are no longer acknowledged, no longer exist, then the translunatics won't be continually reminded about reality and what they can never, ever become.

[...]

Let me guess, she’s a bottom?

Why is JVN going “on tour”? Is he a comedian now?

It has a ton to do with Sense of Self. I always had this, as long as I could remember. When I was an ugly kid, I wanted people to like me for who I was, but I didn't want to be someone else. I knew I was me. Yes, I learned how to style myself better, but I was always me. I didn't have plastic surgery or drastically change my hair color. I always knew who I was, what I was, and liked myself. And I always new my gender.

I am just realizing that the feeling of Sense of Self that I have may be much more unusual than I had assumed.

Maybe people are only giving back what he's giving out.

"The problem is insisting that she is 'female' and 'the first female to hold the role' when she clearly isn't female..."

You're willing to use she/her pronouns when speaking about this individual, but "female" is a bridge too far? The language games of "polite" neo-liberals are why we slid into this mess. Now we're at the point of no return.

Exactly, r86. Rachel Levine is not a woman. HE is a man.

People are getting queerer.

Why is this bottom still here?

Didn't they tell the cast of Queer Eye to Gay it up for the show.

Also JVN cried and got people banned on Twitter for being an out of touch idiot during the primaries where he shit all over progressives.

Fuck this guy

[quote]I'm suspect to misogyny

He's suspect for a lot of reasons, but I must "Oh, dear" this anyway.

JVN is the reason I've stopped watching Queer Eye. He was OK for the first season but after that he just became insufferable.

First - can somebody explain how you can be trans and non-binary? If he has trans, it means he's transitioning to become a woman. If he's non-binary, it means he doesn't subscribe to either gender. HOW CAN YOU BE BOTH?

Second, how is he trans? Is he taking hormones, has he had surgery? A man with a beard cannot be a woman just because he's fem and wears dresses.

[quote]First - can somebody explain how you can be trans and non-binary? If he has trans, it means he's transitioning to become a woman. If he's non-binary, it means he doesn't subscribe to either gender. HOW CAN YOU BE BOTH?

As someone pointed out earlier, Jonathan doesn't seem to be terribly bright.

Yes, R94, no doubt he's an idiot. But I've seen the trans non-binary stuff from other people as well and yet nobody can actually describe how a person can be both things. They are inherently contradictory.

The entire trans/non-binary ideology is filled with contradictions and circular logic. It truly astonishes me to see people I assumed were intelligent and rational enthusiastically going along with this insanity.

R96 Exactly. Especially people claiming to be transgender and nonbinary at the same time. So these people are transitioning from male to female and at the same time are neither male nor female? I’ve had it with the gaslighting.

What and why?!

"If people just kept the gender identity and biological sex thing firmly separate we would be fine."

HOWEVER . . . sectors of the trans activist community are upping the ante on this. Because people are starting to smell something afoul, and are moving to defining people by biological sex over gender, some TRAs are beginning to push the narrative that even BIOLOGICAL SEX IS NON-BINARY.

Exhibit A - the linked Instagram reel from Schuyler Bailar, a popular transmale on social media.

I started following this person to get some real understanding and compassion towards the trans community. But his posts have only succeeded in alienating me from the cause due to constant finger-wagging, pretentious calls to "unlearn" things, and illogical videos, such as this one.

She's a MESS

Her pronoun is

MESS

MESS

MESS

When the dysphoric go into the operating room for their "gender confirmation" surgery there are actually only TWO choices: Male or Female!

[quote]If people just kept the gender identity and biological sex thing firmly separate we would be fine.

Can someone define this 'woman' gender identity that is completely unrelated to biological sex and purpose (the ability to produce offspring)?

She's no Conchita Wurst.

How does Conchita Wurst identify these days? Is he still just a gay man dressing in drag, or has he gone the trans/non-binary route?

Seems to use he/him pronouns but nothing is indicated on social media R104

Non-binary people are okay, but he's a fucking fool with no fashion sense. Not funny, not witty and in general an eyesore.

Most homophobia is rooted in misogyny, so a lot of gay men have experienced misogyny indirectly.

R106 You do realize that nonbinary people aren’t real, right? It’s just pretend. Unless they’ve been castrated, they have something in their underwear.

Misogyny only affects women. It's literally the definition. Gay men were disliked mainly they didn't procreate and were seen as selfish. And gender roles were also strictly defined. Effeminate or receptive gay men were strongly disliked which related to not conforming to traditional gender roles. Homophobia is not rooted in misogyny because gay men are not women. It's rooted in heterosexism and patriarchal thinking of manhood.

Misogyny is rooted in human awareness of biological differences. Women were feared for their ability to bring life into the world, they bleed every month, they have the ability to manipulate men with their sexuality and beauty, they show a very good amount of patience and wisdom which challenges male dominance etc. It's extremely primal fear. Gays were just disliked because they were seen as lazy and immature.

R108, even then, a castrated man is still male. 2,000 years from now, archeologists dig up his skeleton, they have no way of knowing he's been castrated, but they do a DNA test on his bones and they'll know he's male.

Step right up folks!

R109 Homophobia against gay men is rooted in misogny. Most of it relates to shaming men for acting as the "woman" (hence their weird fixation with anal sex) and shaming any man who might act femme - whether that's through their voice, mannerisms or what they wear.

R112 No. Gay men are men not women. They are discriminated because they refuse to procreate with women. Consider the fact that through most of human history, humans lived short lives in poverty and constant warfare. Creating children and preserving the tribe was the most important duty. Gay men were a threat to survival because they were not interested in having sex with women. Naturally, in very hostile environments like the Middle East where Abrahamic religions evolved, any type of non-procreative sex was looked down upon because having children was the most important to continue lineage. Disgust towards men who prefer men arose from the idea that they are wasteful, self-indulgent and uncaring towards society. Fem gays are minority. Most men who have sex with men are not effeminate.

R113 I'm not changing my mind on this one.

R114 OK but I just think it's false. Gay men are men who refuse to conform to patriarchal ideas of creating a family and lineage. That was seen as an insult to their community. Most gay men are not effeminate, so it makes no sense to say it's rooted in misogyny. Only gay men who are the receiving partner were seen as effeminate and disliked. But what about all the gays who were tops and masculine who were still despised. It doesn't add up. Nobody mistakes a fem gay man for a woman. And add to the fact that androgyny was considered a beautiful thing too as long as all involved were heterosexual. Any type of non-procreative sex was seen as self-indulgent and vulgar. Sodomy was defined as non-vaginal sex. You're simplifying a complex issue here.

R112 This.

I don’t think homophobia is rooted in misogyny. When you look at ancient homosexuality, it was only acceptable to be with effeminate gay men or younger boys because they were closest to women.

Not every gay man is feminine either.

At the end of the day, men are more disposable than women. It only takes 1 man to impregnate 20 women. We all descend from a few men.

If women were at the bottom, they’d be the ones sent off to wars lol.

R109 There’s this video of an amusement park ride starting to collapse and all these random men start jumping on it to being the weight down and all the women are watching.

I wonder if women have been conditioned to do nothing in those situations or if that’s their nature.

Although women are known to have super human strength to protect their children.

R116 Yes and notice that straight people really seemed to only accept gays when gays demanded marriage and adoption. If gay and lesbians didn't have interest in marriage or kids then straight people would still be hostile. The desire for us to have families and legal protections of marriage made straight people have empathy for us. The media likes to show married gays with kids or wholesome situations. Gay men who love to pump and dump, be single, and childfree are still despised.

R118 Yes that’s how it is in Boston, basically the hometown of gay marriage in the US. It’s all about being “stable” and non-threatening and fitting into heteronormative culture.

I’d rather be in homophobic Florida because of Miami.

I want to be apart of the IDGAF+ community, that’s what it looks like down there.

[quote]I wonder if women have been conditioned to do nothing in those situations or if that’s their nature.

It was an unarmed, un-body-armored woman who ran into the Uvalde school to get her kids while dozens of men armed to the teeth stood in the hall and outside.

Please forgive me, everyone. I'm on my period.

Younger men feel alienated from the gay identity because the media is obsessed with effeminancy. Yes feminine men deserve representation and respect but the fact that the face of gay culture propagated by the media is effeminate gays, drag queens, trans, "queer" and non-binary is why regular average gay boys are less likely to just say "I'm gay." There's not much representation of regular gay guys who aren't stereotypical. And it doesn't help that gay men are told "masculinity is a prison" and "it's toxic" and they are shamed for not finding fems attractive which is ridiculous. Also since younger straight guys are less likely to be raging homophobes, a lot of young gay guys have straight friends. I'm in my late 20s and have straight male friends who I relate to better than fem gays and women. Though I don't care about them talking about women and het sex stuff. I don't talk too much about gay sex with them in return. But I can talk about dating struggles which most men can find common ground on.

Since the beginning of June, EVERY clip I've seen on TV, online, or in print about gay pride features a man in full feminine make up. And if there is only one shot, that's the one that gets used. I've never wanted to wear make up, or be a woman, I'm just a gay man. But that's the only image I see.

Thank you, r122/r123. I'm happy that femme gay men are getting represented, particularly if it can help femme gay youth become comfortable with themselves and avoid the trans production line, but I can't recall the last time I saw an "ordinary," masc gay guy in the media. It's maddening. We need some balance.

[quote]JVN can avoid misogyny by changing his clothes. Cis-women can't because it's structurally built into the system.

Can we just call them women and not "cis-women"?

[quote]JVN can avoid misogyny by changing his clothes. Cis-women can't because it's structurally built into the system.

One of my friends finally woke up to this insanity when he was advising a trans student about safe travel in the Middle East, and the student just replied that he wouldn't "dress like a woman" and everything would be fine.

Womanhood is just fancy-dress for them.

[quote]At the end of the day, men are more disposable than women. It only takes 1 man to impregnate 20 women.

Once again, an evolutionary reason why male homosexuality makes sense (population control).

Think about it from a hunting standpoint. Due to the fact that humans have mostly killed off the natural predator of deer (wolves), their population is out of control and in many states has become a nuisance. So, hunting is sanctioned by state laws, and only males are permitted to be hunted. Why? Because males can impregnate multiple females simultaneously and cause population growth surges. Male reproductive behavior needs to be controlled to manage the population.

Nature has done this naturally with humans, I believe. Without male homosexuality, especially now with advanced medicine and a longer life expectancy, the human population would be out of control. Males would be making babies all over the damn place. Resources would deplete. It'd be an utter disaster.

Again, there is no non-binary. There is male or female. Just because you don't feel like either... doesn't make you not one or the other.

Seek mental help and stop reinventing humanity to fit your insanity.

Homosexuality also helped men in wars. Men forming emotional bonds with each other made them fight harder.

[quote] Can we just call them women and not "cis-women"?

We are being pressured to describe ourselves as "cis," and being told that to NOT do so is transphobic.

Again, an Instagram video of Schuyler Bailar, transman activist, who wants to just be a "man," yet is angry when non-trans men also prefer to just be called "men."

His line of argument once again seems logical, but upon closer inspection falls apart. As much I want to support, I'm not buying it.

R128 That is the best line ever. Gays should march against nonbinary people and repeat that line over and over. “Stop reinventing humanity to fit your insanity.”

We need to throw out the word gender. It is a made-up word coined by a pedophile (John Money) in the 50s. There have never been transgender people. There have been transsexuals (very rare) and autogynephilic (cross-dressers) No one was ever transgender before the 50s and it is made up by a pedo.

^^^ and before gender, gay men were just gay. Some feminine some masc. This is all so stupid.

Rachel Levine (can't remember his real name) is promoting hormones and lupron for kids. He is just using the trans moniker because he would not have gotten that job if he wasn't calling himself trans. He is a mediocre civil servant. A real woman should have gotten that job if they wanted a woman in that position. No doubt they could have found a smarter woman than this fake woman.

r132, my reading of the actual history is that there were 4 types of trans people prior to the 21st century, sub-groups under two main groups:

Straight: a) autogynephilic cross-dressers -- straight men who have a sexual fetish for dressing in women's clothing -- these men likely existed throughout history, but were and are a very distinct minority; b) transsexuals -- straight men and straight women who attempted to live as the opposite sex, either due to gender dysphoria (primarily straight men) or due to a desire to achieve success in a field they were barred from entering (primarily straight women) -- actual surgery to physically alter their appearance didn't come about until the mid-20th century. Neither of these groups, particularly straight men who were autogynephilic cross-dressers, had anything in common with homosexual men and women, and were likely hostile to them (as they so often are today).

Gay: a) there are numerous examples of a minority of gay men donning drag throughout history -- extremely effeminate gay men who either performed, partied, or prostituted themselves in drag, and rare examples of femme gay men who successfully passed as "women" for much of their lives -- but most of these men recognize that they're still men, those who have pursued surgery in the past century are also very rare; b) and lesbians who were extremely butch and found passing as men more conducive to their dreams and aspirations (G's much unfairly maligned Albert Nobbs is an example of this), but, again, very rare, which is why the explosion of trans-identifying young women is alarming.

I see the right wing anti-trans troll got a hold of this thread. Tell me you’re transphobic without telling me you’re transphobic. Tell me you’re non-binaryphobic without telling me you’re non-binaryphobic.

[quote]Can we just call them women and not "cis-women"?

No, we need to separate them out from regular women.

Non-binaryphobic? That's the best you can do?

Drag isn't a real identity. Most Drag queens are just performers. I have known drag queens and they don't dress in drag for everyday wear.

People are only two sexes. no one is a gender. gender is just fashion.

So are intersex people (formerly "hermaphrodites") BOTH sexes? A THIRD sex? Aren't they simply BINARY? If they identify as intersex from birth, are they CIS-INTERSEX? If they don't, are they TRANS-NON-BINARY (BTNB)? Help us out, here!

Intersex people are one sex. They just born with deformed genitalia which causes hormonal issues and affects their appearance. Sex is genetic. It's chromosomes: XX or XY.

They are Everything all at once. What is so hard to understand about that?

R120 Did you purposely ignore what I said after?

I said “Although women are known to have super human strength to protect their children.”

So your post was worthless.

R143, women protect children that aren't their own as well. There were female schoolteachers who died to protect children in Sandy Hook.

It's not possible for a woman to be effeminate ("femme"). That adjective can only be used to describe a man.

The corresponding adjective for women is "feminine."

It's the trans narrative of trying to equate effeminate males as being the same as a woman.

This is what has dragged many poor souls in to the trans cult.

Just saw a new proudly bilingual Canadian twist on the twitter pronoun label:

[quote]she / her / elle

It all boils down to "I'm a whore, dear."

[quote]It's the trans narrative of trying to equate effeminate males as being the same as a woman.

That's also why we are beginning to see more and more of the "gay men are just too scared to transition" rhetoric.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

I used to think he was cute and funny. Now Id just laugh in his face and swirl my caftan and trot off. Ridiculous attention thirsty whore.

If you don't use someone's preferred pronouns, you're just rude! :p

It’s a fucking loon!

Even the Gay Men's Chorus is in on pronouns, even neopronouns

To paraphrase Lucille Blum "I don't understand your bullshit and I won't respond to it."

[quote]And I'm going to say, don't anyone ever ask me about that again. Because at this point, if you're asking a queer, out, non-binary or gender non-confirming or trans person about the significance of pronouns, I think you're an a**ehole.

R151 Wait, what? Asking what someone’s pronouns are is the way to show respect for their identity. So much for “Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness.” 🙄 I guess now his listeners will have to be careful of what’s not okay to be curious about.

[quote]Because at this point, if you're asking a queer, out, non-binary or gender non-confirming or trans person about the significance of pronouns, I think you're an a**ehole.

I think we know who the real asshole is now.

I was done at the first line. Wrong word, misspelled words, cursing , you already lost me. I’ve always been sharp as whip (see?) but I’m starting to forget the best word to describe something or I’ll call something what it looks like and not what we already call them. Firehole for fireplace was the beginning. If I’m not sure about something important I will look it up online so as to avoid the Idiot label.