The truth about the Uvalde shooting is coming out now

The FBI is investigating now. These so-called cops all need to lose their jobs over this. They aren't qualified to be crossing guards.

The entire police force in that town needs to be disbanded and taken over by the state.

R1 MARY to the 9th one!

No one is more pleased with this turn of events than the GOP, since it's shifted attention away from gun control.

Are the cops white? Just asking. The kids are mostly brown. I'm an older mixed race guy from the South so at times I'm still living in 1963 and that's the first thing that comes to mind when I think Dixie.

We need congressional hearings on the state of policing in this country, we need federal guidelines and oversight...and enough with these 6 week recesses, do some fucking work.

They've changed their story 12(1) times so far.

Federal oversight of the police would be unconstitutional.

That should be an exclamation point not a 1.

My son who was in the military: (If they were ordered to wait) They should have ignored it, that's not a lawful order and goes against active shooter response protocol..I’m sure they base theirs off our security forces. The fucking cops didn't go in, they waited until an off duty BP agent had enough, showed up, put his gear on and went in. Those cops make me sick, all of them at the scene waiting for almost 40 minutes while those kids were murdered…

I guess we can't trust the "good guys with the guns" to stop the bad guys with the guns.

I suppose now the NRA will say that we need a third group of "even better guys with guns" to make sure the good guys with the guns stop the bad guys with the guns.

In my school's active shooter training, the cops stressed that most people who get shot survive so it's more important to follow the protocol (run-hide-fight) than to worry about getting shot. If they tell pussy teachers like myself that, they must also tell cops that in their cop training. What a failure of leadership and courage on the part of the Uvalde police!

R8, silly boy, everyone knows that the constitution only has one amendment that counts: the second. All others are just recommendations designed by the libs.

SWAT officers should be capable of dealing with situations involving hostage rescue, barricaded gunmen, sniper operations, terror threats and high-risk security, and warrant operations.

SWAT teams exist “to deal with situations where most patrol officers can’t deal with it,” said Lt. Erik Knutzen with Utah County Metro SWAT. “Typically, you’re dealing with barricade subjects, extremely high-risk search warrants, hostage situations. (These) are kind of usually the majority of what we train for.”

[Quote]No one is more pleased with this turn of events than the GOP, since it's shifted attention away from gun control.

Yes! The conversation always shifts to how first responders and/or school security failed to stop the shooter.

Perhaps start with preventing the shooter getting a gun in the first place.

I wish there was some kind of law that could be used to prosecute them for failure of duty.

R11 A good guy with a gun showed up, kitted up, went in alone, and killed the mf.

This is really what our taxpayer money is going towards. Shocker, “defund the police” was right. Pumping money into the police force isn’t fixing the issues.

Only after at least 19 other "good guys with a gun" didn't do a damn thing, you stupid git.

[quote] Are the cops white?

I was curious about the same thing, I get where you’re coming from. But in reading about this it sounds like they’re the same demographics as the town—they’re not outsiders, some of them have kids in the school. The flavor I get from some of the coverage is they are just stone-cold stupid.

I assume you mean Congress, R16.

The Bubba Mayor who yelled at Beto is fucked

Why did he have to shoot 15 innocent children? Why couldn't he do some good and shoot Greg Abbott and Ted Cruz instead?

10. Anyone 18 and older can buy an assault weapon made solely to massacre people

I honestly don't know what I mean r21, I am having a hard time wrapping my brain around this whole thing and not sure what questions to ask. google is, of course, no help whatsoever.

R8 it wouldn't stop the state (of Texas) from disbanding the police force in that town and replacing it.

A small town in rural Texas, a bunch of bubbas on a small force, and a population who was not protected.

I have family in law enforcement and a friend who as a town manager for a small town who oversaw the small local police department. After taking the job he realized what a bunch of good old boys were on the force, slacking while on duty, poorly trained, and lazy, he fired the chief, retired several bubbas, and hired people with experience and exceptional backgrounds. A family member in law enforcement says it's now an able, trained force.

Knowing what I've learned from them, the Uvalde police force is a bunch of good ole' boys who were not trained for such a devastating tragedy. It's unconscionable what happened. It's not the only town in Texas or other such backward communities, where law enforcement is incompetent, but with a mindset like Texas Governor Asshole, things won't change soon.

r27, how strong was the police union in that small town? I think one of the problems we are having in Portland is the police have a very strong union.

R28, I don't know about the union in that town. But even with a union you can fire people who are incompetent. I worked for government, there's a process, it takes some time and a lot of documentation but it can be done. Quickly when necessary, I've seen it happen.

Like the darkest Reno 911 episode ever.

R12 That’s what we were taught as well.

"It'll never happen here" is no excuse. Every school everywhere needs to be prepared. How sickening that is.

[quote] [R12] That’s what we were taught as well.

Being told that actually gave me more confidence I would be able to act in an emergency. I am very afraid of guns.

Sorry to be Debbie Downer here, but I am really not so sure if the survival rate of being shot by an assault weapon qualifies as "most survive."

Defund the police.

How embarrassing, fat incompetent Latino police officers.

Cowards to boot.

Pendejos.

I still don’t understand why Border Patrol (this shouldn’t have been their job) had to be brought in. Very bizarre.

At first I wondered if the police's delay in going in had to do possibly with them figuring the shooter was engaging his social media and, if he saw TV images of them moving in, it'd provoke him to continue shooting at anyone still alive where he was holed up. Unsure but it will be enlightening to learn how the facts all pan out. What a terrible fucking nightmare.

Don;t give them any ideas, R38.

I'm sure they'll come up with some new bullshit now that their old bullshit got exposed.

[quote] Only after at least 19 other "good guys with a gun" didn't do a damn thing, you stupid git.

I don't think that's quite accurate.

They followed the gunman into the building and followed him to the class room where he barricaded himself. They tried to get in but he started shooting at them, some were injured and so they retreated back around the corner just a few feet or yards from the door to the classroom. They were always inside.

They couldn't see in the classroom and couldn't tell where the kids were and what condition they were in. They didn't have the equipment to storm the door - without knowing what had happened in the room it represented a risk to those inside. What I don't understand is where was the key all this time. They also didn't do nothing. They rescued the kids out of all the rest of the classrooms in between the shooter shooting at them.

We really don't have all the facts yet and I find it appalling that people - especially tweeters with large followings - are so quick to call the cops cowards and demonize them.

Criticism of tactics is one thing once we have all the facts but what I am seeing is ugly and ignorant.

They should lock them all in a room with a crazy person with an assault rifle for 40 minutes while he shoots one of them every minute.

Here's a former SWAT team cop who is not happy at all with them being called cowards without the complete picture.

Make every single parent who lost a child a multi millionaire. The police, and therefore the state completely failed them. These are decent latino folks who were hoping to have their children educated, not killed.

I cant hear any more details about this story. Too fucking sad.

But SWAT can kill an innocent man in his own home thanks to a prank call. IDGI

R30 It feels like something you would see in a dark absurd comedy like Heathers

[quote] They should lock them all in a room with a crazy person with an assault rifle for 40 minutes while he shoots one of them every minute.

R41 perfectly illustrates the mindless anger and violence that Ramos no doubt shared while he was shooting dead those children and their teachers.

Listen R40 . Im pretty goddamn sure after a couple of minutes of shooting the ONLY person still standing upright in that classroom was that fucking nut job. They should have forced that door and blasted his ass to hell. Period. Anything else was pure cowardice on their part. Period.

R40: weren’t there windows on the outside? Couldn’t the cops or a drone have peered into them?

R46 was standing outside with his thumb up his ass while children were slaughtered. Unarmed parents ran in there while the armed police tried to stop them from rescuing their own children instead of going in as a force and taking the fucking shooter out.

[quote]We really don't have all the facts yet and I find it appalling that people - especially tweeters with large followings - are so quick to call the cops cowards and demonize them.

The head of LE in Texas as well as other cops and LE around the country have all said the Ulvade police fucked up BIG TIME and went against 20+ years of protocol that you go in immediately with the force you have. These assholes dithered for an hour and a half.

^^^ He shot into the windows of some classrooms as he approached the propped-open back door. And he shot at the police through the windows IIRC. I doubt anyone was standing at that point - including the shooter.

They treated it as a barricade or hostage situation which is treated differently than an active shooter situation. That was likely the wrong.

R40 he didn’t barricade himself in, he locked the door. You losers will make excuses for anything. They’re supposed to move in quickly in a school shooting setting, they didn’t. They were scared and incapable of doing their job, and because of that, a bunch of kids died. Are we supposed to accept that it took an hour for an entire police department and swat team to attempt to open a door as reasonable? We’ve all seen how violently and aggressively cops act usually, the only reason they didn’t do that here is because they were a bunch of scared losers.

Locked door is considered a barricade situation.

Are we supposed to believe that Uvalde had its own SWAT team? Or were they waiting for one to show up from the nearest large city? Did they send out for some coffee while they were waiting? They should have just handed their guns to the mothers who rushed there to find their children and let them go in and do the cops' job.

I have decided how I feel about this. Police piss and moan that they out their lives on the line for us every day. That they have the most dangerous job in the world. That they are highly trained to react decisively under high pressure situations. Fuck these officers.

I am not an ACABs person but I am an ATHESECABs person. 40 percent of their town's budget goes to outfitting these yahoos in body armor and night vision goggles. for what? Garbage ass chicken shit motherfuckers.

[quote] Did they send out for some coffee while they were waiting?

No. I believe they were getting shot at and safely rescuing all the kids out of the other 14 rooms - at least 10 of which were classrooms.

People are so ugly and kneejerk.

R56, you are the only loser defending these do nothing cops. Face it, they FUCKED UP. They didn't defend the kids actually in the classroom with the shooter for an hour and a half. I can't believe anybody thinks that acceptable. Are you related to one of these idiots or something?

[quote]the cops stressed that most people who get shot survive so it's more important to follow the protocol (run-hide-fight) than to worry about getting shot.

They tell you that because it's acknowledged that you're sitting ducks in a mass shooting and the only chance you have is following the protocol. There's nothing to lose at that point.

Being shot with a handgun (or even a standard rifle) is nothing like being shot with an AR-15.

With the former the bullet follows a straight trajectory and it's mainly a matter of what happens to be in its way. If bleeding can be controlled and the patient is stabilized and gotten to a trauma center of the appropriate level quickly enough, there's a lot that can be done surgically. Even when hollow- or soft-point ammunition is used, it's isn't always hopeless.

With the latter, the velocity is three times greater than either of the above. A shot from an AR-15 travels so quickly and is so powerful that it creates cavitation rather than a straight line. The damage is closer to a bomb going off than it is to a traditional GSW and the radiating shockwaves shred everything in the general vicinity, including arteries. The force is so great that they don't have to be touched by the bullet. An abdominal shot can result in an exit wound of 12 inches; a head shot to an adult, at least grapefruit sized.

I MARY!ed in the other thread about how I will never get the site, smell, and sound of the AR-15 patient I saw out of my head. If he had been shot with anything else he would have ended up with a plate and some frontal lobe damage. As it stood, he was left with a brain stem and it hung on just long enough to get him in the door.

[quote]Are we supposed to believe that Uvalde had its own SWAT team?

R58 Oy vey. Wow. You are doing "God's work" as they say. I can't even BEGIN to imagine what you've seen, or what you see when you close your eyes some nights. You're incredibly brave and kind to do what you do. Thank you.

Border Patrol Agents killed the shooter. This article explains why they were at the school. Apparently, it was common for BP to respond to emergencies. Also, some of them had kids in the school. They engaged the shooter in gunfire. It's unknown who actually killed him.

[quote] According to the CBP official, three Bortac agents engaged the shooter in gunfire — with one holding a shield — after entering Robb Elementary along with local and state law-enforcement officers. One Bortac agent was wounded, but not critically. The CBP official told Texas Monthly that it’s “unclear which bullet from which gun” struck the shooter and killed him.

These are rinky dink small town backwoods cops who have no idea what to do beyond pulling someone over for running a stop sign!

There is no training to prepare you for a Mass Shooter! Unfortunately, there will now be crazy lawsuits against the school and the city. But this was Mental Illness.

I saw a high school kid who grew up with the shooter, be interviewed, and he said this kid was mentally deranged and a weird kid, who tortured animals and tried to be a bully at school but the kids would gang up against him and beat him up!

Except they did in fact train for mass shooter events.

[quote] These are rinky dink small town backwoods cops who have no idea what to do beyond pulling someone over for running a stop sign!

I don't think so. Seems like they were trained, as stated above, and equipped / armed.

On the other hand, the police department involved with apprehending 6'9" prison escapee Casey White (Alabama) did seem rinky-dink.

The young girl who smeared herself in her friends’s blood will need therapy and her GOFUNDME has raised 200k for said therapy I read. Therapy should be free for all the kids.

All these kids are traumatized for life!

My niece is a freshman in high school and doesn't want to go to school and wants to telecommute instead! (so fucked up)

Essentially, you have choice:

Protect yourself with a gun, or

Protect yourself with gun control.

Blaming the police response is like blaming the rooster for the sun coming up in the morning.

Thank you, r60. But no need for that. It was only a short emergency-medicine rotation at a level 1 trauma center; elective, no less!

The number and variety of gunshot wounds was shocking at first, but nothing—nothing—ever came close to that AR-15.

Raise the age of owning a gun to 25!!!!!!!! Background checks would be more reliable in relation to past arrests and mental illness stints!

I thought Latinos count themselves as white. And most cops in this town are Latinos too. Yes, you kinda sense how crappy and cowardly this police force is.

Nothing will change, it's America, the most obtuse, obstinate and obese. The Chinese and the Russian are laughing their butts off right now.

[quote] They've changed their story 12(1) times so far.

12(1)?

R56 is a badge bunny.

ACTIVE SHOOTER!

the little girl’s phone logs blew up Abbott’s complete, well crafted bullshit story of heroism

In a previous thread a few of us were speculating that the police, out of incompetence or cowardice, must have decided the shooter was trapped in a single room and everyone was dead anyway so they could simply wait. Texas DPS confirmed that yesterday by saying that the police apparently decided it was a barricaded suspect situation, not an active shooter situation. When children started calling 911, they then decided they needed to wait for tactical equipment, which added another 40 minutes to the wait.

I believe we're now being told it was 1 hour 15 minutes of wait. A few days ago, we were told 35, then 40, then an hour, now it's an hour fifteen. It's incomprehensible to me that they allowed this to happen.

The calls are coming from inside the school

JFC @the little girl who saw her classmate/bff die in a most horrific way, then had presence of mind to dip her hands in her dead bff's blood and smear it over herself, then play dead while the demon was still stalking and shooting.

Immediately I thought of the beautiful Leon Wells and his heart-rending testimony at Adolf Eichmann's trial.

Fuck bipeds.

R33 I call bullshit on this theory, just 17 other kids were shot but survived.

R56 the truth has come out that the shooter was roadming around and was in at least 4 of the classrooms, not barricaded in one room.

[Quote] We really don't have all the facts yet and I find it appalling that people - especially tweeters with large followings - are so quick to call the cops cowards and demonize them. Criticism of tactics is one thing once we have all the facts but what I am seeing is ugly and ignorant.

The fact is a gunman shot up 19 kids and 2 teachers why police with guns waited outside of an hour…and were looking around for a key to the door.

THOSE are the facts.

Yes 17 MORE kids were injured in four other classrooms as the shooter went from room to room.

I'm as pro-gun as you can get, and I'd support an age limit for semi-automatics to age 25 as long as we got something in return, like all states becoming "shall issue" within 2 weeks for concealed carry if you can pass all the checks at 25.

[Quote] Locked door is considered a barricade situation.

Did they knock nicely?

If they saw the guy go into the classroom with kids, they never would have considered “everyone’s dead anyway.”

That’s a BS argument.

If it’s the truth, it really reveals how awful this dept is

[Quote] They couldn't see in the classroom and couldn't tell where the kids were and what condition they were in. They didn't have the equipment to storm the door - without knowing what had happened in the room it represented a risk to those inside

Um…

[Quote] Locked door is considered a barricade situation.

Locked doors don’t stop firemen. They don’t say “everyone inside is likely dead so let’s wait for this fire to burn itself out.”

[Quote] They treated it as a barricade or hostage situation which is treated differently than an active shooter situation. That was likely the wrong.

Likely?

[Quote] No. I believe they were getting shot at and safely rescuing all the kids out of the other 14 rooms - at least 10 of which were classrooms. People are so ugly and kneejerk.

What heroes—they “rescued” kids from other classroom after he had already gone classroom to classroom, injuring 17 and now was locked in a completely different room.

What strength! What heroism!

[quote]I'm as pro-gun as you can get, and I'd support an age limit for semi-automatics to age 25 as long as we got something in return, like all states becoming "shall issue" within 2 weeks for concealed carry if you can pass all the checks at 25

So basically you are just s shill. Why do you need to "get something in return"? I guess doing something just because it's right is NOT really your motive.

[Quote] I thought Latinos count themselves as white. And most cops in this town are Latinos too. Yes, you kinda sense how crappy and cowardly this police force is.

Nothing to do with ethnicity. Even during the Pulse massacre, cops stayed outside for 5 hours, busy arresting survivors who were demanding the police go in.

[Quote] There is no training to prepare you for a Mass Shooter!

And yet the police publicized all the training it apparently did to justify that 40% of the town’s budget went to the school. In fact they had a training in the school itself in March

What that girl who had to cover herself with blood called 911, she should have mentioned there were donuts inside

[quote]If they saw the guy go into the classroom with kids, they never would have considered “everyone’s dead anyway.”

We may find out later that they never saw the guy go into the classroom. I don't think those two cops were inside the building when he shot at them. Those cops might not even exist. We were first told that those cops were shot, then just shot AT, and now no one is sure where those cops were.

Anyway, it seems that their decision to believe that everyone was dead and he was barricaded in one room was a delaying tactic so they didn't have to go in and face the shooter. I think the police force outside the building, or at least their captain, decided on their own that he was barricaded in one room and everyone there was already dead, without any real evidence of it.

The DPS spokesperson who was talking about it on the news yesterday was trying to play it down a little, but ultimately it sounded like the cops held on to this false idea until children were calling into 911 and then they had to acknowledge it was not a barricaded suspect situation, at which point they came up with another way to delay going in there: calling in SWAT and for tactical equipment.

[Quote] SWAT officers should be capable of dealing with situations involving hostage rescue, barricaded gunmen, sniper operations, terror threats and high-risk security, and warrant operations.

Uvalde publicized its apparent crack SWAT team. Took them an hour to get there. Got to finish lunch first, I guess.

R93, the police are telling so many lies that even they know they did it wrong. All of it

They believed everyone was dead…even those who were calling from in the room

I've heard that new soldiers are useless under fire. They can't even shoot at the enemy in the beginning.

I hate that we are having this conversation, this is exactly what Republicans want, Look Over There! Gun control? I thought I addressed that in my original statement, we moved on, stop talking about that, let's investigate the failure of Barney Fife and mental illness. We can spend weeks on this until people forget about guns. The will be too burnt out to lifter a finger about it by then.

r40 Cops in this country are allowed to shoot innocent, unarmed people with impunity and get away with almost anything they want. They get away with murder, corruption...anything. The country mainly puts up with it because in return we expect them to be the actual heroes they're always holding themselves out to be.

Children were slaughtered while over a dozen cops were only feet away. And while those cops stood around doing fuck all because a door was locked, the rest of the heroes were outside tasing parents and putting them in cuffs.

There is no excuse for what happened at that school no matter how much you apologists try to spin it.

And if cops can't do their jobs because they are outgunned, perhaps they and their completely psychotic unions should press for gun control.

When will we hear the 911 calls?

OP, the woman in the other stall did you a huge favor all those years ago. Those shoes were ugly as sin. Let it go.

Slate Magazine has a timeline of events posted.

The Border Patrol was there because anything within a 1000 miles of the border is their jurisdiction. Slight exaggeration.

R82, who is "we?"

Do you work for a gun manufacturer? Are you a lobbyist?

I'll bet you those pieces of shit on the police force in Uvalde are big Trump supporters. So, it stands to reason. Trump called the men and women who fought and died in WW2 "losers and suckers." They're all selfish, evil, cowardly lowlifes, just like their leader.

If there is a hell, those scumbag cops are going there. I'd bet not one of them lost a minute of sleep over their inaction which led to the deaths of children.

My blood is BOILING reading this story. BOILING.

You have CHILDREN calling 911 BEGGING for HELP. And it doesn't come. And several DIE because of it.

You know what? Send this lowlife SCUM out of MY COUNTRY. They do NOT deserve to live here. They're a fucking DISGRACE. Useless. Worthless.

I posted this in another thread, but it's just as applicable here:

There really is nothing police can do or not do in this country that some bootlicking asshole won't trip all over themselves trying to defend. They can lie their asses off; kill unarmed "suspects"--even ones who have committed NO crime; use battering rams for no-knock raids on elderly people who are the wrong target; kill, taze, or beat children; sit back and let children and teachers be slaughtered; violate basic human rights all the day long; be white supremacists, rapists, and wifebeaters or sit back and let their ranks be infiltrated by them; vote GOP and support the NRA despite the fact that their policies make their jobs MORE dangerous and are anti-union all the while using their unions to protect them from ever being held accountable for their incompetence; and still some stooge will still insist they deserve the benefit of the doubt, or they should be thanked first for their service (even when that "service" is shit), or it's just a few bad apples, or blue lives matter even though they think no one else's does.

R11, that's exactly what Trump has said. He's so unpredictable.....

I want those 911 calls released! I want that CCTV released! I want those body cams released as the rat a rat sounds were heard!

Yesterday’s presser asserted someone determined all of the kids were dead so there was “no risk” and thus it transferred from an active shooter to a barricaded shooter. This is insane.

Anyone filming the Houston NRA conference and explaining how a frickin 18 yo has a “right” to wander in and obtain two AK-15s and sixty 30-round magazines within a week of his 18th birthday?

There were numerous 911 calls while the police waited outside. It is believed but not confirmed that the callers made it out alive. Per the Slate timeline.

[quote] I believe they were getting shot at and safely rescuing all the kids out of the other 14 rooms - at least 10 of which were classrooms.

What you believe is immaterial. The facts are the facts, despite your vile attempt to twist them.

[quote]People are so ugly and kneejerk.

And, of course, it wouldn’t be a troll post without the obligatory whine that we’re so mean when we call you Nazis on your evil.

I haven't heard anything more about the teacher who propped open the locked door, allowing the shooter to enter the school. Is there an explanation why she did this?

[quote] the truth has come out that the shooter was roadming around and was in at least 4 of the classrooms, not barricaded in one room.

There are no reports he was roaming around and was in at least 4 classrooms.

The shooter shot into classrooms through their windows when he was still outside passing by those classrooms - classrooms 102, 103 & 104 - as he headed to the propped open door.

He was barricaded in the connected classrooms 111 & 112. He never left his location and roamed around.

Where did you get your information? I think you just can't read properly or you are prone to making assumptions then stating your assumptions as facts.

I've read conflicting accounts, R111. A previous news story claimed the teacher heard the shooter's truck crash, opened the door to see what was going on, then propped it open while she called someone (presumably 911). But this new timeline says she opened the door a minute before the crash.

I wonder if there's any margin of error on the timestamps they're using to plot all this out? Not sure how it works.

R111 looking for a scapegoat?

I've lost track of which version it is, but at some point they claimed 19 officers followed the shooter into the school and were in the hallway while he was firing shots in the locked classroom. If that's true, they heard the kids being slaughtered and they didn't move in despite the repeat 911 calls begging for help.

My goal is to punch a clock, harass some people, intimidate others, and then get paid, sometimes under the table. It's not to get shot at or be in danger in any way!

Apparently the shooter was outside for 12 Minutes shooting his gun. Police arrived as he was heading into the school (yes, 12 minutes after her started shooting).

Some police followed him on but retreated when he started shouting at them.

When they realized he had locked himself into a room, They looked around for the key. 45 minutes later…

In the meantime, they were outside busy handcuffing parents.

[quote] Some police followed him on but retreated when he started shouting at them.

"Don't you use that tone of voice with me!"

If I was Greg Abbott I’d be giving some sort of medal to the border patrol agents and a fucking pink slip to every member of the local police department. Most will want to leave anyway, because I can’t imagine they will be popular with the residents after this. And the top ones should be arrested for incompetence in office.

[quote] Sorry to be Debbie Downer here, but I am really not so sure if the survival rate of being shot by an assault weapon qualifies as "most survive."

It sounds like at least some of the kids shot the other day initially survived but bled out before they were helped. Bleeding the the biggest danger from a gunshot wound.

[quote] According to Dr. Demetrios Demetriades, a professor of surgery and director of trauma at Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center, the mortality rate of a patient increases by about 10% for every 10 minutes of delayed bleeding control.

[quote] L.A. County-USC’s chief of trauma, Dr. Kenji Inaba, said similarly that “bleeding remains the No. 1 preventable cause of death after ballistic injury,” though he said he could not comment on the law enforcement tactics used in Uvalde or the medical care provided at the scene.

If you are a cop at an active shooter situation and your main concern is keeping yourself safe, you shouldn’t be a cop.

Is the locked door / looking for a key story for real? There's something called a battering ram that cops use, e.g., to execute search warrants at a house that has a locked door.

Well in the movies they just shoot the doorknob off -- voila!

R121, they didn't have battering rams and shields. They had to wait until they were brought over. I thought I read that the US Marshals got them there as fast as they could.

If they just approached the door without protection & no real way to force their way in, they would have been killed or wounded and then what good would they have been? This wasn't the beaches at Normandy where you could afford to lose people because there were a ton of people coming up the rear. Plus their weapons and communications could have been taken by the shooter. That's what you want to avoid.

The 19 weren't there at the beginning. They came on the scene over time.

He was not shooting at the school outside for 12 minutes. I think you aren't understanding what has been said or shown via timelines.

He crashed his vehicle and upon being approached by 2 guys from a car lot (IIRC) across the street. he shot at them and then stopped shooting. They went back to their business and called police.

He then started to move toward the school and hid behind cars in the school parking lot for a while. At some point the school cop shows up and thinks some teacher may be the shooter at first. Around this time or a bit later the shooter comes from behind his hiding place and starts to walk down the side of the school with classroom windows and starts shooting into 3 classrooms - and then enters the building via the propped open door. He heads toward the classroom he ends up barricading himself in and immediately shoots off maybe 100 rounds in the classrooms 111 & 112 which are joined, He is followed not much later by that initial school cop and I think a few more other cops (unsure if School cops or the city cops responding to the car lot employees who called in the shooter's initial shots at them.

These initial cops tried to get in the classrooms 111 & 112 and the shooter shot at them and grazing one or two of them. They back up around the corner from the classroom.

It's now obvious why Jabba the Hut the mayor went ballistic on Beto. The mayor's the boss of the police. The cover-up was already on. Abbott and all those assholes knew what happened and were trying to cover their asses and the asses of the fucking cops. If the parents hadn't come forward with cell phone videos of what the cops were actually doing, that would have been the end of the story. Hero cops!

The cops handcuffing and threatening the parents really infuriates me. Fuck the cop bootlickers in this thread.

R123, they were touting their SWAT team. They waited 40 minutes for battering rams but none ever came. They had to find the key.

Whatever excuses they may give—19 kids and 2 adults are dead and much of a the blame lies with the utterly ineffective police.

Bootlicker R123 is here to tell us that his twenty-eleventh version of events is the real one, no seriously!

This town's police took up 40% of their budget and they had a SWAT team, but had to wait for the US Marshal's to bring a battering ram? Even though Border Patrol was there and ready to move in with their own gear?

Really, R123, if you're going to spin wingnut talking points, put some real effort in.

19 kids dead.

No matter what excuse the police come up, it’ll be laughably insufficient.

Every move was wrong . Every fucking move

When lives are at stake and you don't have a battering ram, improvise. Pull out a goddamn fence post if you have to.

A fence post?

But they might get scratches on their hands. Cuts, even!

They did make a nice perimeter.

This one REALLY fucked me up.

I’m SOOO FUCKING FURIOUS!

That fat fuck Bubba Mayor needs to be recalled ASAP, and every single policeman and policewoman who fucked this up so colossally needs to GO.

And fuck Abbott for leading with a number of bullshit versions of this event with his ass kissing lackeys.

This asshole needs to be voted out of office. He needs to be excoriated over all forms of media, with continuous protests outside of his office daily.

Don’t let Texans forget who they have as a governor. A lying, greedy, power hungry, immoral asshole who thinks he some sort of surviving wounded warrior, because a fucking tree feel on him and now the world owes him because he’s in a wheelchair.

The rot starts at the top. Time to cut off the head of this incompetent mechanism called the Texas Government, and get some capable people in those top spots, who give a fuck about little kids and teachers getting shred to ribbons while police actively obstructed other agencies from neutralizing an active shooter and saving lives.

These people in the highest positions of state government in TX are nothing but pure scum.

I hope Texans finally wake the fuck up and understand the grift they’ve all been subjected to, and make SANE voting decisions when the time comes.

Latino teen kills Latino children while Latino police stand by and do nothing and you blame White people, R5?! I appreciate there is a double standard when it comes to racism and generalising people based on race. That it's ok to dehumanise White and Jewish people, but I can assure you that White people actually don't have a cavalier attitude towards "brown" children being shot to death..

Please, present receipts

I like governors that trees don't fall on.

[quote] [R121], they didn't have battering rams and shields.

Then don't call yourself a fucking SWAT team.

Also, there are a lot of things to attack Abbott about but I wouldn't lay any of this at his feet. Having been involved in state and local level politics, the locals almost ALWAYS mislead the people from the state level to make themselves look better and not incompetent. I'm sure when he was praising them, he fully believed the story they were feeding him and he is probably furious right now. Which is one reason why these cops might have saved themselves from getting shot but they might have wished they had been once the locals, the state of Texas, and maybe even the Feds get through ripping them all new assholes.

[quote] the locals almost ALWAYS mislead the people from the state level to make themselves look better and not incompetent. I'm sure when he was praising them, he fully believed the story they were feeding him and he is probably furious right now.

So if *you* know this about the locals, why doesn't the governor of the state, R136? You think he became governor by being politically naive? You give him far too much credit. He just thought he could get away with spouting the original bullshit he was fed because "cOPS aRE bRaVE aND hOW dArE yOU mAkE ThIs pOLitIcAL" etc., etc. Bad luck for the evil fuck that the game got busted almost immediately, but I think your sympathy is misplaced.

Locking a door ≠ barricading. The definition of barricading requires blocking an entrance or exit using improvised methods (blocking with a cabinet for instance), using a lock doesn’t satisfy this. The cops obviously use this wording so it sounds more dramatic than it actually was, and makes them sound less incompetent.

R137 Honestly, politicians are often naïve about it. They lie to everyone, but many have a hard time believing those below them would lie to them. It is his aides and operatives that would have known the truth. And, I bet you they told him and he dismissed them, and now they are like "I told ya so."

So the police were standing around outside peeing themselves while the children inside bled out from their wounds for an hour, ensuring no survivors.

As far as sending the heavily armed tactical team in, they were just playing a deadly game of Texas Hold’em

R140 Basically.

I guarantee Abbott was not lied to--if he was he'd be swift in doing something about it. We know he can move fast when he wants--like when he wants to go after trans-supportive parents or people needing abortions.

^ I should clarify--not so much that Abbott wasn't lied to in that he wanted a story to immediately pivot away from talking about gun control to hero good guys with guns and did not give a shit whether it was true.

He was pretty swift in escaping the Polar Vortex in February 2021 while the power grids were going out all across Texas.

R133 why lump Jews with white people? Whites have a moral compass and have created democracy. Whites are human.

R144 That is more of what I meant, it isn't so much that they "lied" as they would just make sure to feed him the story as they knew he wanted to hear it. And, since it was what he wanted to hear he ran with it, and now looks like a fool.

R138, this is what they call barricading. it's either active shooting, barricading or hostage. All situations can change rapidly. Put your dictionary away.

I don't think he was that passive, R147. I'm sure he was very much a part of massaging that story in a way he thought the press and public would accept without question.

[quote] Then don't call yourself a fucking SWAT team.

I'm sure they weren't a real SWAT team. It just sounds good. I found their budget. When you consider the 3 shifts thy have to cover it's not much of a force. Out of 57 employees there are only about 38 cops (rest dispatch & admin) that would ever be on the street and that has to be divided by shifts - probably less cause I counted Lts and detectives.

Out of about $10 million, the cops got about $4 million. But then the parks, golf courses and the like got $2 million. Streets got over $1 million.

Scroll down to page 39

R150 Yeah but these local police departments often access other funds that are separate such as civil asset fioriture, federal grants, and getting all that excess military equipment over the last 20 years, etc...

Police also get lots of federal money in grants and programs.

All those assholes standing behind Abbott in his bullshit press conference had no business being there. In addition to lizard Ted Cruz and John Cornyn (who at least had the decency to leave in the middle of Abbott's bullshit) there was Texas' indicted criminal AG Paxton, his bitch wife (Paxton also has a mistress he forced a donor to give a job to - whistleblowers are all over Paxton's corrupt ass), Dan Patrick, the Speaker of the House (an Abbott minion) and of course the obese asshole mayor. They all wanted facetime so they would get publicity for the elections). None of the politicians had any connection to Uvalde or South Texas. Abbott was lying his fucking ass off. He always does. They'd already come up with their NRA sponsored narrative about the hero good guys with guns and the mental case.

R153 is spot on.

Adding on to what R151 and R152 wrote, in one of the photos, there was a decal on the back window of one of their SUVs stating that it was purchased with a grant from Homeland Security.

R153 As they are elected officials of the state of Texas, that includes all of Texas, so they do have an elected connection to Uvalde. When something like this happens politicians are in an impossible situation, whether they go or not, they will be criticized.

R148 🙄 yes dickhead that was my point. The police use intentionally sensationalized language to make the situation sound more dramatic than it is to gain sympathy for their performance. They term it ‘barricading’ opportunistically. But it’s not barricading, and we shouldn’t use their terminology because it plays to their hand.

In my own small town the sheriffs dept is a block up the road. You have to go thru a central answering system which dispatches them. It takes 20-30 minutes to respond to anything. A baby could walk it faster. Invariably, day and night, they are parked in their lot running their motors in their SUVs, playing on their cell phones. There must have been multiple complaints (at the very least creating more gasses to hasten climate warming). Their response? Covering their chain link enclosure with black tarp so they can’t be observed!!!

My TX relatives: “It’s the libtards fault. If those children had guns they could’ve protected themselves!”

R156 that's total bullshit - they're all a bunch of rightwing East Texas politicians who hate Mexicans. I have never seen such a collection of politicians with zero connection to what happened, all grouped together so they'd get their names and faces out in the public before the upcoming election. Paxton's fucking wife? I hope he brought the mistress too.

They would have been more effective if they had been doing a drag runway contest outside the school.

At least they might have distracted him

The Unbreachable Barricade!!!

^^^^^

[quote] Also, there are a lot of things to attack Abbott about but I wouldn't lay any of this at his feet.

Wasn’t Abbott heading to a fundraiser when this was all going down? He was criticized because he continued on and blew off the crisis. Then he conveniently spouts [bold] heroic [/bold] cop nonsense and limits the amount of information he doles out to the public concerning the massacre.

[quote] So if *you* know this about the locals, why doesn't the governor of the state, [R136]? You think he became governor by being politically naive? You give him far too much credit. He just thought he could get away with spouting the original bullshit he was fed because "cOPS aRE bRaVE aND hOW dArE yOU mAkE ThIs pOLitIcAL" etc., etc. Bad luck for the evil fuck that the game got busted almost immediately, but I think your sympathy is misplaced.

Agree R137.

This is most noteworthy when the actual information comes to light. There are reports and photos of parents being barricaded, tased and placed in handcuffs! while LEO stood around for close to an hour doing nothing! There are photos of LEO outside the school DURING the event casually drink out of bottles of water while frantic parents pled with them to DO something to retrieve their children. One woman was unshackled from her handcuffs and snuck over the fence to retrieve her child herself! She did more than the LEO!

Abbott should be raked over the coals for this massive failure. He is a grotesque ghoul and sociopath. And all the demented Texans that support him should be deported. Seriously, the guy (and his fans) should not even be considered American. It demeans the moniker.

Some speculation that Abbott wanted the delay b/c the shooter was initially believed to be an illegal alien, and Abbott wanted fodder to rail about the border issue.

R150, Put the donuts away. This was a town of 16,000, not West Bumfuck against the Symbionese Liberation Army. The police had the ability to take substantial and sustained aggressive action in this specific situation and they didn’t.

Virtually every single post you make on this thread defends the Uvalde police and their actions during the entirety of this horrific massacre. You are essentially stating that they did everything that was required of them and more, and any further course of action on their part would’ve only increased the carnage. Bull. Shit.

A simple review of just the basic facts and timeline of the Uvalde mass shooting makes it unequivocally clear that the Uvalde Police Dept. failed to follow protocol at a fundamental level that the situation demanded, and their willful ignorance (at the very least) and deliberate passivity led to even more deaths. They knew the shooter was still active and they sat on their proverbial fat, donut laden asses. Pulling children out of windows doesn’t count when they had the manpower, training, and weapons to do much, much more. They should be held accountable.

R166 he's posting similar benefit-of-the-doubt crap on another thread as well.

R165 that's borderline crazy conspiracy theory, but honestly we can't put anything past Abbott and the current GOP. Remember his fauxrage about the TX power grid and how it was everyone else's fault and he was going to get to the bottom of it and then... he went after abortion and trans kids instead and the power grid is still a fucking mess. He is precisely the type who would see an undocumented shooter massacring children as an opportunity.

R12, that cop lied to you. A .223 will certainly kill someone instantaneously, but should they miss their target and strike a limb, the bones will outright shatter if not completely amputate the victim. Good luck escaping at that moment.

Let's worry about car accidents or nuclear proliferation. The number killed in mass shootings is freakishly small.

r169, It's a form of terrorism, and terrorism should not be ignored.

It speaks to larger issues in our society, r169, when 18 year old men feel the solution to their problems is to brutally murder lots of people. And the good thing about society is that different groups can work on different issues without there only being room for one thing at a time.

Loved how Hot Wheels got booed by the crowd in Uvalde when he showed up to try to get his photo op.

Federal oversight of local police departments for a finite period of time for specific reasons is NOT unconstitutional. After a number of significant complaints and incidents, the Department of Justice applied Federal oversight to the Detroit Police Department and I believe it lasted about 2 years, maybe it was extended longer. They do a forensic audit of procedures and examine protocols, and cases, wade through complaints, officer involved shootings, etc. and then come up with an action plan that the department has to accept. There are goals and benchmarks and testing that goes on and people get fired. Training occurs. It is not a bad thing and it seems like training for cops is certainly lacking in many of our police departments.

Abbott serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever at those things.

R173 they can investigate and try to come to an agreement with the local police departments but the only real power they have is denying federal funds to them if they don't meet their targets. And if the state government resists for them it becomes even harder to get meaningful change.

On the plus side, since Trump's DOJ stopped doing any investigations like that, it's nice to have them started up again under Biden.

r174

Haven't read all the posts, so I don't know if this has been mentioned. In addition to the 19 dead, 17 more victims remain in the hospital recovering from their wounds. The cops have repeatedly asked the media not to mention the wounded.

A friend who works in a television newsroom in Austin told me that a couple of state legislators want the backgrounds of the victim's families checked to see if any of the dead kids are "illegal". If any of the kids weren't American citizens, the state legislators want their numbers removed from the final death count.

One child smeared herself with blood from her nearby dead classmate hoping the shooter would think she was dead and be left alone. The child was physically unharmed, but no doubt she's psychologically damaged for life.

The thing that struck me as I read the report, aside from the cluster fuck, and cowardice, were the phone calls from kids inside those rooms facing a killer. One little kid told 911 she could hear the cops next door getting other kids out of the building, she knew cops were right there in the building, and she begged for them to come and get them. Think about that. Can you even imagine being in the room. Cops were there. And they did nothing. If you have ever called 911 in an emergency you know how agonizing it is to wait. minutes drag on forever. Those kids were left to the mercy of a deranged killer with an AR 15 for 50 minutes. And they knew the cops were outside in the hallway by their room.

I have nothing but sympathy for the Uvalde families . But I have to say, they have a gun culture in their communities. And they are Trump supporters and Republicans. Not all of them want to see Gun Safety reforms. They even say there are conflicts within families between spouses and family members about how to deal with this. Can you fucking believe it. And today they were demonstrating when Biden was there screaming at him, "Help us! We need your help, President Biden! Help us!"

R173, where I'm at in the country, our police have been under federal consent for more than a decade, and goddess knows we need it. Our latest scandal is that cops outright defrauded the department by never showing up to details, or by accepting off-duty jobs that were fictitious. It has led to some improvements: at least our SWAT doesn't outright jump out of vans blasting anymore. "Defund the police" isn't simply a rallying cry of BLM. Those of us that have been dealing with crooked cops for years, if not decades, know that they care little for others than themselves.

R176 they don't want to discuss the wounded because some of them are probably still fighting for their life. A .223 bullet will turn your organs into jelly. Their wounds will turns into knotted aneurysms, turned inside out. Those kids, if not disabled completely, will probably require multiple surgeries over their life.

R179 The Republicans in state and federal government have done more than anyone to "defund the police." They've defunded public education too. Their tax cuts force lay offs and erode equipment, crippling local police departments and courts. They want to starve government out of existence and privatize everything including our criminal justice system and public education. Many Republican governors have also refused to participate in Medicaid leaving millions of American without any healthcare even though the Federal government funds most of it. These people also block passage of minimum wage increases.

[quote] I have nothing but sympathy for the Uvalde families . But I have to say, they have a gun culture in their communities. And they are Trump supporters and Republicans.

God, I am so sick of fucking "liberals" assuming that anyone who lives in a state taken over by Republicans is a Trump supporter and believes everything that the Republican fascists say. Get off your fucking arrogant pedestal and clean up your own hellholes. I guess that, since someone is from New York, he, she, they totally subscribes to the SJW/ cancel culture. You must, since you are from New York. You must believe in everything they espouse including the entire trans agenda. Grow the fuck up.

r182

It's not arrogance; it's stupidity. The same stupidity that consume Boebert and Greene.

There's some asshole rightwinger who is claiming the chef of police in Uvalde - a guy named Arredondo - donated to Beto O'Rourke....in 2012. He donated $5. And the Arredondo who donated to Beto lived in Laredo. A 2 1/2 hour drive from Uvalde. There are a shitload of Arredondos in Texas. It's like Williams. lol

R178 their State Senator is a Democrat and that asshole Gonzalez only won because the Texas Democratic Party is crap. The nominee was Gina Ortiz Jones who is a half-Filippina, half-Anglo out lesbian who lives in DC, not in the district. That's a Latino district. Had Jones spent any time actually campaigning in the district as opposed to giving interviews to the NYC media about how she would historically be the first half-Filippina, half-Anglo out lesbian to have ever been elected in that district!... she might have won. Dumb bitch.

Perfect is the enemy of good, r185. Let it go.

There were federal agents involved in this operation, so I think that gives the feds a hook to look into it.

These shootings are ludicrously rare. They don't say anything about our culture or young men. We need to worry about Mexicans and other foreigners taking over our land. We need to make immigration and immigrants illegal.

R182, being a liberal, I actually went and looked at the facts. Uvalde votes over 60% Repug. That means they voted for Abbott. They voted for Cruz. They voted for Cornyn. And they voted for Trump. So, being the usual hypocritical, fact-free piece of shit Repug you are, go fuck yourself.

R189 thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

R182 “Trans agenda.” Is that like the homosexual agenda to recruit children?

Or like the Republican agenda to turn everyone into moving targets?

I see that the same neo-nazi troll who infested the Buffalo shooting thread has discovered this one as well.

Uvalde's a little hick, rural town in a hick rural county. Texas rural counties are GOP since forever. Texas' cities and increasingly suburbs are Democratic enclaves. Beto's got to make in-roads in rural Texas and he's fucking working his ass to do so. The GOP just ignores rural Texas as they automatically vote for any GOP asshole. But Abbott made - among his million mistakes - a big one with his proposal for school vouchers for private schools to appeal to rich people in suburbs who don't want to pay private school tuition. Problem is: there are no private schools in rural Texas and all the whole social life of a community revolves around the public schools, particularly the high school's football team. Friday Night Lights is real.

If Beto can campaign enough, get TV ads on for people who aren't on social media and don't have broadband, he can do it.

[quote] that asshole Gonzalez only won because the Texas Democratic Party is crap. The nominee was Gina Ortiz Jones who is a half-Filippina, half-Anglo out lesbian who lives in DC, not in the district

What? You'll have to explain that. Was she working on some congressional staff or something like that?

She already ran against incumbent Will Hurd in 2018 and barely lost but she was riding on Beto's coattails. She bitched that it was Beto's fault she lost because he hadn't endorsed her, accusing him of protecting his buddy Hurd. She ran again in 2020 and without Beto's coattails, lost by a lot more against Gonzalez after Hurd retired from Congress as the only black Republican in the House. She'd been in the military and had some kind of job at the Defense Department. She claimed she grew up in San Antonio (she was from DC) but it appears she only actually lived there a couple of years. Biden's given her a job now.

The truth is: Americans are fucking nuts and obsessed with guns, violence and “protecting their property”. Mass shootings every day, God bless America.

R198 most of us have never been within a thousand miles of a shooting. America goes to war to protect peace And our people need to be practicing with their weapons. Death is part of life and we need to witness it often to desensitize

How will Texas teachers be required to teach both sides of gun safety or mass killings?

R190, are you not aware that 60% doesn't equal 100%? Of course the majority of the town no doubt voted for Hot Wheels and the orange psychopath and every other Nazi, but that doesn't mean they ALL did. You obviously have no idea what it is like being a democrat living in a very red area of the country. You spend most of your time either biting your tongue, changing the subject, or telling people you don't agree with them and don't want to talk about it (because no one EVER changes anyone else's minds about anything remotely political).

[Quote] Get off your fucking arrogant pedestal and clean up your own hellholes. I guess that, since someone is from New York, he, she, they totally subscribes to the SJW/ cancel culture

You sound like a Republican to me

[Quote] These shootings are ludicrously rare. They don't say anything about our culture or young men. We need to worry about Mexicans and other foreigners taking over our land. We need to make immigration and immigrants illegal.

Events like 9/11 are exceeding rare too. Let’s worry about Mexico…

[Quote]No matter what excuse the police come up, it’ll be laughably insufficient.

How about, "If you idiots in Congress could get your act together and introduce gun control laws, maybe, just maybe, idiots with guns wouldn’t walk into (name a venue) and start killing people".

[quote] The truth is: Americans are fucking nuts and obsessed with guns

They like gadgets and cars and mechanical things. Especially boys and men. Like they like motorcycles and fishing gear and electronics.

I don't think it's so much about killing or we'd have constant killings or shooting people by those who legally own guns. And we simply don't.

People only want to see that horrible aspect to it. Most legal gun owners are responsible and they teach their children to be responsible with guns.

It's something more and it's more recent. Not that these things haven't happened before - they have. But there have always been guns available without this recent trend.

People always want to reduce serious issues to simplistic analysis.

There was a notable, significant uptick in mass shootings once the assault weapons ban was allowed to expire under GW Bush. Most mass shootings feature assault weapons. The guns themselves contribute to the problem, regardless of the culture. There are many reasons but that is one big one.

[quote] [quote] I don't think it's so much about killing or we'd have constant killings or shooting people by those who legally own guns. And we simply don't.

This is a parody, right, R205? A joke (that’s not funny), given Americans obsession with guns which were devised to kill. They are not tinker toys.

Guns. Are. The. Leading. Cause. Of. Death. In CHILDREN. In. The. USA.

We live very safe lives. The tiny percent of people killed accidentally by firearms is acceptable. We can improve safety if we want by training. We need a gun culture because it is a violent world and we r world police. Blacks should not have guns but we are too scared of them to take their guns.

[quote]There was a notable, significant uptick in mass shootings once the assault weapons ban was allowed to expire under GW Bush.

Yep:

Thanks for the breakdown, OP!!

OOF, #9 is #1 on the list of things NOT to do when there's an active shooter. JESUS

[quote]There is no training to prepare you for a Mass Shooter!

What? Of course, there is. It seems the Uvalde DP didn’t have it, the equipment, or THE BALLS for one.

Can I just digress for a moment.Boris Sanchez is in Uvalde and he is anchoring for CNN RIGHT NOW!

R209, we have so much to be grateful for with the Bush Presidency. We have 9/11. We have a war fought in the wrong country, Iraq, simply because Saddam "tried to kill my dad..." We had Hurricane Katrina, And then we had two Supreme Court justices: Alito, and the Chief Justice Roberts. And in 2005, the ban on assault weapons expired. And he and DICK let it, wanted it. And he was the one who intoduced the Extemist Federalist Society to vet all judicial nominees. So much is traceable to Bush....and before him Reagan. Never foget.

^ Plus Cheney and Rumsfeld, who with W2 formed the first axis of evil in American politics.

R214 people always forget because Americans are idiots who are flat broke but are convinced they're gonna win the lottery and don't want to have to pay taxes when they get their imaginary mansion and yacht.

Serious question: are we ever going to find out which teacher propped the door open? The media keeps brushing it off. I'm guessing locals know who it was. I can't imagine being that person; I think I would kill myself.

I don't believe a teacher did prop open a door. That was their first attempt at trying to cast guilt on anybody but the police and the gun laws. Back when they claimed the school cop had gotten shot by the kid when he went into school. They can't keep their lies straight.

I agree, R218. They've changed their stories so much I won't believe that story without a lot more proof.

^ I have to believe much of this is on video since they have footage of the killer entering the school. If a teacher propped it open it should've been captured on video. The news said s/he did it to get a cell phone presumably out of a car.

Guns don't kill people, doors kill people

Guns don’t kill people, stupid cops with their thumbs up their asses kill people

Who cares anymore? Let's move on to the next mass shooting, let's just hope it's in Texas again, they made their bed, stop bitching.

Here's what I thought I knew, and this is within the past two days: A teacher was outside by the back door and had propped it open. (Maybe a smoker?) The shooter had just crashed his car and was shooting at two guys and the teacher saw or heard this and ran to get their cell phone leaving the door open. The shooter had run acoss the street and was shooting windows out of classrooms from the parking lot. By now teachers had called police to alert to an active shooter.

Then the shooter got in through the door that had been left open. Now IMO this is full of holes. Because the first thing any sane person would do is not leave a door open. reflex. Shut the door and run to alert others , call 911 etc. It's interesting to me that There's a lot of silence right now. As I understand it there are some people kids and teachers, who were wounded and hospitalized. Nothing on them.

Nothing on the Chief who failed. Nothing on the cops who were in the hall listening to the gunfire. Eveything has been focused on the famillies of the dead, and the "officials" who hold news conferences. I read somewhere that some GOP state legislators wanted to know who was in the hospital because they wanted to check for illegals. What fucking monsters.

Thank you, r224. That is more than I've gotten from anywhere.

Please ignore this "who propped the door open?!" crap. It's a sad pathetic attempt at distraction right from Ted Cruz's playbook. If the shooter was blasting through windows, he would have gotten in one way or another. The Sandy Hook shooter blasted through the locked security doors. These guys go into these schools READY for a shootout.

Imaging being so desperate to deflect from the danger of AR-15s that you've accepted that children's lives are contingent on whether a door can be propped open.

R217: As grim as it sounds....at first, I HOPED it was one of the teachers who was killed. Not because I think either of them deserved to die for such a mistake...but because the guilt is just too great of a burden to live with. To know that YOUR mistake lead to THIS?!

Also, reports keep saying "a teacher". Do they mean a REAL teacher-teacher? As in, a fully-credentialed (by the state), full-time classroom teacher....OR, a teacher's aide/assistant...who are not necessarily as "on the ball" or follow procedures, to the letter. (I speak from personal experience).

The truth is that guns rule in America and we are the scourge of all advanced nations. No modern nation in the world comes close to allowing what we do- the police response is a distraction that make the GOP happy. The most common cause of death for children in the USA is gun shot. When will there be political will to address this savage issue and the GOP obsession with the NRA which is evil personified. Their original purpose was fun safety. Now it’s the sale of weapons of mass murder.

R228 is right, tho. The shooter had an AR-15. Military grade automatic weapon. So even if that door had been closed and locked, he could have blew the lock off and breached that door easily. What is important is that a teacher or some school personnel was standing outside by an open door of the school and was able to see and hear and alert the police. because the focus should be on the police. Also, from the moment the first reports came in, the Governor's office had to be aware. lots of dirty hands in this scenario.

While I was thoroughly embarrassed and shamed by Trump leading The States for 4 chaotic, interminable years, this recent massacre right on the heels of Buffalo and followed by the NRA corruption-lovefest in Houston has solidified my complete embarrassment as an American.

I, fortunately, have surrounded myself with non-gun lovers in family and friends (except for a med school classmate that surreptitiously carried a pocket pistol in her lab jacket....she was from South Georgia and reminded me of a watered-down version of MTG....but I digress.)

Having lived in saner countries: Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Australia, and NZ.... I know what it is like to exist in a culture that is not obsessed with firearms.

After surgically removing bullet after bullet and seeing first-hand the damage of firearms on human tissue, it is incomprehensible that the USA does nothing massacre after massacre. I have always carried a small spark of optimism that decency and kindness triumphs over insanity in this country.

However, it appears that the knuckle draggers are all coming out of the woodwork in the US.

When the #1 cause of death for American children is due to GUNS; and people on this site as well as throughout the country continue to become defiant and defensive when gun control is suggested, it beggars belief.

Gun violence is deterring people from wanting to come here. I know personally know people who had to really think about whether they wanted to take up a job offer in the US because of this sort of thing.

R230, that new stat on guns being the leading cause of death in children is misleading.

The ages include those up to and including 19. Those older ones are not children and those in the teens at15, 16, 17, 18 , and 19 are most likely engaged in illegal gun activities. Gun laws will do little to curb that activity. These deaths need to be more carefully studied.

The article linked gives more insight into what they believe may be the cause. Apart from the fact that traffic deaths have significantly decreased due to increased auto safety.

Go fuck yourself, R232. Those are still kids, asshole. And, of course, gun laws would curb it.

[quote]Also, there are a lot of things to attack Abbott about but I wouldn't lay any of this at his feet.

[quote]Wasn’t Abbott heading to a fundraiser when this was all going down? He was criticized because he continued on and blew off the crisis. Then he conveniently spouts heroic cop nonsense and limits the amount of information he doles out to the public concerning the massacre.

This entire tragedy can be put at the feet of Greg Abbott without a shadow of a doubt. He put those AR 15s in that 18 year olds hands. The blood of all those dead children is on him. He is so covered with it.

R226 Dude, it's all relative and not remotely a distraction. SOMEONE left the door open and that's how he got in. I don't nitpick with disaster like this. Those children were failed on EVERY LEVEL. I want to know EVERYTHING. Goddammit, I want to know what music that toilet baby was playing.

FLOORED when I heard officers were in the HALL while he was LESURIELY moving through rooms.

A guy on CNN said this was the worst example of police mishandling (paraphrasing) in US history. I can't confirm THAT, but it's certainly in MY lifetime.

Nothing will change, Repugls will give BS lip service to this and block or vote to do nothing in 3....2....1...0.

Merka

The Republican strategy and it's a McConnell special, is to pretend to be open to negotiation and discussions about curbing Gun violence. Then after a protracted period of time, after they have dragged it out until the next recess or what ever, they say the Dems refuse to work with them and they walk away saying "we tried but the Democrats are unreasonable." They do this with EVERY issue. WTF is there to negotiate? Gun Safety reforms are not negotiable. You ban the assault weapons. You insist on background checks. You impose age limits. You ban those big magazines. You institute Red Flag Laws, and you close loopholes on gun purchases. I would also include allowing Gun Manufacturers to be sued. And then afte that lets take a look at the NRA. They ought to be RICO'd and dismantled.

The Houston Chronicle which, in the past, has leaned Republican, has had enough of Greg Abbott. Yesterday they published an article noting Greg Abbott said at the 2nd press conference in Uvalde that he was "open to all solutions" and simultaneously told the NRA via video that gun rights were absolute. Fucker.

[quote] Go fuck yourself, [R232]. Those are still kids, asshole. And, of course, gun laws would curb it.

R233, it's your kind of ignorance and refusal to face facts that will keep us from effectively dealing with this issue. One size does not fit all. Gun laws do nothing to stop illegal gun possession.

A 6-year-old child walking home from school and getting shot in a drive by shooting or being killed while their parent is attacked or shot in school by a maniac has ZERO to do with a 16-year-old gangbanger out feuding with a rival crew selling drugs.

No one calls these teens children until it's political expedient to do so.

R239 you're wrong. And you are so convincing in your assertions that some unfortunate "low information" voter type may even accept what you're peddling, but you are in the wong place. You're peddling a variation of the whole "If we take away guns only bad guys will have them." "Gun laws do nothing to stop illegal gun possession." Yes they do.

In mandatory miniimum sentencing for example, people who commit a crime using a gun face much tougher sentences than those committing a crime wihthout one. Second, If guns are illegal there will be fewer guns because access will be limited, and sales will be illegal. The guy selling out of the trunk of his car, or from his kitchen table will be a ciminal and he will face steep penalties.

IMO the basic minimum we can do RIGHT NOW is ban assault weapons, insist on background checks, impose an age limit, and ban sales of large magazines. Certain types of ammunition should also be banned for personal use. And we absolutely need a Red Flag law. You can call it "one size fits all" I call it common sense gun safety reforms.

[quote] One size does not fit all. Gun laws do nothing to stop illegal gun possession.

So, let's do NOTHING

[quote] One size does not fit all. Gun laws do nothing to stop illegal gun possession.

Murder laws don't stop murder either. Should we get rid of the laws?

The gun fetishists will simultaneously insist that no gun restrictions are worthwhile because they won't stop every single gun death, but half-assed solutions like single point of entry and armed guards at schools are the answer even though they repeatedly fail at stopping mass shootings.

[quote] Murder laws don't stop murder either. Should we get rid of the laws?

These monsters have no problem believing that abortion laws stop abortion.

Now it seems that Greg Abbott who first claimed the shooter only had a handgun and a "rifle" didn't want to admit the kid had an AR-15 because the multiple mass shootings in Texas on his watch were all with AR-15s. They also delayed identifying the shooter, hoping against hope he was an illegal.

These guns were legally purchased like every other mass school murder, but nice try.

I think what he meant they were hoping the shooter was undocumented, so they could throw the narrative in that direction, making this about immigration, instead of guns

Shocker, the cops were caught in another lie when they tried to blame a teacher

Texas Gov. Greg Abbott: "We as a state – we as a society – need to do a better job with mental health. Anybody who shoots somebody else has a mental health challenge. Period."

Also Gov. Abbott: "I'm slashing the budget of the agency that oversees mental health services."

I would have run into there.

^^Not before me

R251, you beat me to it!!!!

[quote]The Uvalde PD and Uvalde Independent School District police force are no longer cooperating with the Texas Dept. of Public Safety's investigation into Robb Elementary School shooting, multiple law enforcement sources tell @ ABC News.

They see the bus they want to throw them under.

More claims made by the cops are being disproven

Well then, you're unemployed.

If the teacher didn’t leave the door open, who did???

R257, they are saying that the lock on the door failed. So doors aren’t the easy answer . . .

R257, no one did. The teacher shut the door. But the door wasn’t locked.

At least the illegal was shot. We somehow have to get control of the border.

R201 why continue to live in such a backwards hateful area? Move!

Ted Cruz and other upstanding public figures were tweeting a healthy dose of commendation for heroic law enforcement before the victims' blood was dry. Have any of them recanted those cookie-cutter, meaning!ess routine proclamations?

More shit

Amen R261 . My 1st husband had a great job offer while we were there for the 3rd time .I flat out told him "I am not staying one more minute in this bigoted hellhole of a state!"I was dead serious. The people there are seemingly nice,but their true natures are very close to the surface and they slip all the time. It seemed like everybody hated everybody . I havent set foot in that state since.

Louise Mensch must be read with a shaker full of salt, but I like the image.

Looked back at the UT Austin Tower sniper in 1966. Numerous civilians left their own safe cover to aid injured people and pull them to safety. Some were killed or injured themselves. That hasn’t seemed to happen even with LE now. I think there may be some suicides when it sets in how they are ruined by this do-nothing stuff.

[quote]More shit

Where?

If this actually was a billboard at R 265, I guarantee more people would be upset and file their complaints at the use of the word " Fuck" than would be upset by the idea of a bullet killing little kids.

This anti cop stuff is unforgivable. The cops were injured risking their lives. Their boss told them not to attack.

R263 I bet we're going to get a "Retirement from law enforcement" announcement soon. Hope they hire more security for those council meetings cause they ain't gonna be able to get shit done with the number of protesters.

R269 Bullshit. Who stands down when children are being murdered? PLEASE. Parents were begging to be let into that building with nothing but some car keys and a cellphone. I'd be embarrassed as an officer.

" I'm retiring to spend more time with my family."

[quote] This anti cop stuff is unforgivable. The cops were injured risking their lives. Their boss told them not to attack.

19 kids dead with plenty of armed cops just on the other side of the door.

THAT is what's unforgivable

So the "who propped the door open?!" crap did in fact turn out to be not just a pathetic diversion but a flat out lie. Shocking.

And it turns out Uvalde police had EXTENSIVE active school shooter trainings and protocols. They explicitly addressed 1) having to confront the shooter immediately, 2) that it might involve temporarily ignoring cries for help from the injured (because getting to the shooter first is priority), 3) that they cannot wait for tactical gear and backup--if its there, great use it, but time is of the essence and you CAN NOT WAIT, 4) that if necessary a single officer moves in because again, they can't wait, 5) the protocols and roleplays included what to do if one or more initial responding officers is shot (spoiler: the next officer(s) KEEP MOVING IN ON THE SHOOTER BECAUSE THAT IS #1 PRIORITY).

And the kicker: “A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field."

R269, “unforgivable”—what are you, the Catholic Church? They violated their oath to protect the public. They can’t just claim that they were “following orders” if the orders were obviously wrong. The mother who saved her children disobeyed orders. The guy who shot the killer was not following orders. He simply did the right thing.

If you look at R269's other posts you'll realize quickly it's not worth responding to.

Basically, the presence of the cops did NOTHING to change any aspect of this this attack.

It was the border patrol who showed up and actually killed the guy

[quote] If this actually was a billboard at R 265, I guarantee more people would be upset and file their complaints at the use of the word " Fuck" than would be upset by the idea of a bullet killing little kids.

In sure the Fuck has been photoshopped in

[quote] The teacher shut the door. But the door wasn’t locked.

Aren't there doors that automatically lock but opening them in a certain way can disengage that automatic locking mechanism? Like metal fire doors automatically close and even some swing doors do but if you open them beyond a point they don't.

It may be the teacher disengaged the lock - intentionally or unwittingly. So shutting the door wouldn't keep the shooter out. This was a startling event I would assume from the moment she heard of a gun. Until we have all the evidence I'll withhold judging any of the participants.

Correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge no police officers were injured during this incident. I think Lardass Arredondo is going to Jail. Of couse maybe they will cover up for him. Republicans stick together. Is Criminal Dereliction of Duty a crime? No way did they really believe this was a barricaded gunman. Everyone could here the shooting including cops waiting in the hallway. And in case they weren't sure, the 911 command center notified the police SEVERAL times that they were getting calls from inside the classrooms from Kids begging for help. So, IMO that is some kind of fucking crime and some of those cops should have ignored the illegitimate order and breached the classroom.

Fome FBI guy Andrew McCabe said in this kind of situation the command usually shifts to a more experienced leader with more resouces. So if the Uvalde Police, o the Sheriff's depatment or the State police or WTF ever arrive they take over. This guy Arredondo was the head of the SCHOOL police. So he was barely above a damned Mall security guard. Now the Uvalde police and the county law enfocement and the state police had to have been there. WTF happened. Do not tell me they all backed off and allowed Mr. Rent a Cop to stay in charge. I smell a cover up. Is he taking the fall? And if no one else was in charge why weren't they? Dereliction of duty? Something stinks.

And people are still trying it with the door.

If the door was locked, he would have just blasted through it, the same way the Sandy Hook shooter did. Or jumped through one of the windows he shot up.

Just waiting for the next "solution" to be "no windows in schools!"

It should be stated--AGAIN--that we are getting so much BULLSHIT from this town that it's really hard to tell what's fact or fiction. What we DO know is that the door that was supposed to be locked wasn't because someone unlocked it.

R280 Blasting through a door can be heard and SOME time given to those inside. Since they're obviously NOT going to do shit about ARs, I think locking down rooms is the only solution.

The lock didn't work. The door was closed. It was not left unlocked. It was supposed to be a security door only opens from the inside. Which is why it had to be popped open. If you were outside you would not be able to get back in if the door closed.

R279, according to this timeline, two police officers received “grazing” wounds. The city police officers did arrive on the scene some time before the border patrol forces showed up.

Why was border patrol even there?

I wonder if any of these cops were actually grazed by bullets firing out of an AR-15.

THAT also sounds suspicious.

R269's other posts in this thread, r270:

[quote]I've heard that new soldiers are useless under fire. They can't even shoot at the enemy in the beginning.

[quote]R133 why lump Jews with white people? Whites have a moral compass and have created democracy. Whites are human.

[quote]Let's worry about car accidents or nuclear proliferation. The number killed in mass shootings is freakishly small.

[quote]These shootings are ludicrously rare. They don't say anything about our culture or young men. We need to worry about Mexicans and other foreigners taking over our land. We need to make immigration and immigrants illegal.

[quote]R198 most of us have never been within a thousand miles of a shooting. America goes to war to protect peace And our people need to be practicing with their weapons. Death is part of life and we need to witness it often to desensitize

[quote]We live very safe lives. The tiny percent of people killed accidentally by firearms is acceptable. We can improve safety if we want by training. We need a gun culture because it is a violent world and we r world police. Blacks should not have guns but we are too scared of them to take their guns.

[quote]At least the illegal was shot. We somehow have to get control of the border.

CNN caught up with him. A lot of dodging. He's been coached.

R269 is morally bankrupt. Plus incredibly stupid. Probably ugly too. The trifecta of worthlessness.

Thanks, R286.

Wonder if he's trolling for "fun" or if he's getting paid. Yes, even here on our li'l Data Lounge.

[quote] Why was border patrol even there?

Apparently the border patrol helps out because it has military-style equipment which local police lack

I read that the Border Patrol was there in case any "illegals" were involved. Can you believe it! Fucking worried about Illegals. All this weaponry, people stockpiling military grade weapons all of it is tied to racism and targeting POC. It is all tied to White Supremacy. The GOP will never cooperate with limiting guns. It's a strategy. All ove this country lunatics in unifoms or militias are just waiting (and hoping) for the race war to start. I hate these people.

In a situation like that it is all hands on deck so all local or adjacent law enforcement arrived.

r292

R293, if it's any comfort, I have you on block, too. Which I had to log out to determine. Have the day you deserve.

from r287...

I believe the report was that the agent at the head of the formation wielding the protective shield that enabled them to approach the shooter's position was grazed in the head - so that is a very close near-death shot.

Seriously people are going to mock the people who took this guy out? Any of you ever, I mean EVER, risked your life for another?

[quote] Seriously people are going to mock the people who took this guy out? Any of you ever, I mean EVER, risked your life for another?

No, we're mocking the people who armed to the teeth but too afraid to take this guy out.

In fact, a border patrol officer, who was told not to go in by the head of city police, went in and shot the guy.

[quote] I read that the Border Patrol was there in case any "illegals" were involved.

I read that they were there because a shop in town was giving out free donuts. It's just as credible as what you" read."

It wasn't a border patrol officer who shot the shooter

[quote] Any of you ever, I mean EVER, risked your life for another?

That’s absolutely beside the point, you intellectually challenged excuse for a human.

I am not an LEO, in which putting your own life at risk for the greater good, even when the odds are not in your favor, are a critical requirement in the carrying out of your duties. I don’t need to justify my moral or ethical outrage by offering up a comparable life-saving effort in my defense, because I’m not paid or expected to do that as I go about my daily life. This is why we have police and public safety departments; to shield and protect the general population from the burden of having to doing such things.

Don't bother, r300. r296 is pro-gun, anti-gun controls...

[quote][quote] The truth is: Americans are fucking nuts and obsessed with guns

[quote]They like gadgets and cars and mechanical things. Especially boys and men. Like they like motorcycles and fishing gear and electronics.

[quote]I don't think it's so much about killing or we'd have constant killings or shooting people by those who legally own guns. And we simply don't.

[quote]People only want to see that horrible aspect to it. Most legal gun owners are responsible and they teach their children to be responsible with guns.

[quote]It's something more and it's more recent. Not that these things haven't happened before - they have. But there have always been guns available without this recent trend.

[quote]People always want to reduce serious issues to simplistic analysis.

[quote]Texas law enforcement said days ago that all the kids in Uvalde were shot by Ramos. This sent off red flags; that perhaps the police shot a kid. Now radio communications have surfaced with a kid saying "I got shot", and authorities saying "They shot a kid." What's going on?

We have lost any and all sense of nuance in this debate, and on many other issues, as a nation. We are guaranteed a right to bear arms in the USA-- I myself own a few, but it was instilled at a young age that they are not toys, but tools whose ultimate function is only violence. It's because of that I never went hunting even when offered; I was happier shooting a target on a range.

What is obvious is that guns are the problem: easy & nonchalant access to things that will kill will beget killing. Fixing all that is easier than our larger issue: we are addicted to violence in this country. Keep in mind we're the product of mawkish Puritans. There are many in this world who get off on other peoples' suffering.

I hate it so much, I wish Napoleon never sold my ancestors.

"We are guaranteed a right to bear arms in the USA"

No, "well-regulated militias" are

The only reason this was ever put into the Constitution is because the British soldiers would just force their way into people's houses, conduct searches and confiscate all guns and anything considered a weapon.

R304 & R305, that is just one viewpoint. The right to possess weapons for self-defense dates way back in common law before the US existed. You know that common law the US based its constitution and our own common law on.

R306 please indicate where in the Magna Carta assault weapons are mentioned.

R40 couldn't the police have looked in the classroom window from the outside? Kids climb out of the windows to escape!

But, R308, we mighta gotten a splinter or sumthin' in our fingers!

paid to provide a rational opinion? You guys attack anything republican because some republicans don't believe gays should marry. Pretty silly approach. I don't agree that an 18 yr old should be able to buy an automatic rifle . That's a bit crazy. $$$$$$$$$$$. Send me my dollars.

[quote] please indicate where in the Magna Carta assault weapons are mentioned.

We're talking about the premise of the Second Amendment.

What can be allowed under that is another discussion.

But, R311, the conservative heroes are strict constructionists when it comes to the Constitution. Funny how they become such complete hypocrites when it comes to the second amendment. I mean, moreso than they usually are.

The gun nuts seem to think that only the Second Amendment, but none of the others, is absolute. They scream "Second Amendment!" anytime anyone suggests even the most reasonable and common-sense of restrictions on guns. But they were perfectly willing to kick Beto O'Rourke out of the press conference with Gov. Abbott when Beto was simply talking and exercising his First Amendment right to freedom of speech. I wish someone had asked how they could justify ordering Beto to leave when the First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech. I'm guessing their response would have been something like this: "The First Amendment isn't absolute. There need to be some reasonable restrictions on free speech to avoid disrupting the peace." Exactly.

JESUS CHRIST, I can't recall THIS much cover-up over THIS horrible of a tragedy in some time. I read something one day, and it's LITERALLY contradicted the next day.

Is this expert Russian trolling?

Bill Gates should announce he's going to exercise his second amendment freedom by buying a nuke.

[quote] The only reason this was ever put into the Constitution is because the British soldiers would just force their way into people's houses, conduct searches and confiscate all guns and anything considered a weapon.

No, as most historians now agree, "bear arms" in colonial times meant to be part of a state militia. The fear was a federal government would squash all state militias, so the second Amendment says: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Scalia and the SCOTUS right wingers were intellectually dishonest when they twisted like a pretzel to pretend that the second Amendment means there's a personal right to keep guns.

What is the gun nut's explanation of the "well-regulated militia" part of the amendment beyond just ignoring it?

[quote]I wish someone had asked how they could justify ordering Beto to leave when the First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech.

The First Amendment doesn’t guarantee you the freedom of saying anything, anywhere, at any time. The First Amendment guarantees you will not be arrested by the government for what you say.

Throwing Beto out was a pussy move that had more to do with who he was and Hot Wheels’ inability to take the heat from a constituent, but it has nothing to do with the First Amendment.

I do wonder if this shooting was gods way of kidding rid of a future Hitler type. We can't assume these kids were destined to contribute to humanity.

r319=bloody stool

I repeat, yes Commonlaw is really the backbone of Law in the US. It comes fom the UK, and evolved fom the times of Kings and serfs, and it allowed people to have weapons because they had to hunt and they had to defend their families from all manner of threats. But...as I was saying, the reason our Constitution even discusses any of that shit is because of the conduct of the British leading up to the Revolutionary War. In fact the war had, for all intents and purposes, begun and they were trying to suppress the rebellion, but instead they fed the fires. They would also confiscate private homes, and billet British soldiers in them as well as othe poety.

I think many of us need to read history and educate ourselves about our Constitution. I am not being derrogatory. In fact I think all of us should read about the history of our Constitution, and the particular decisions that came out of it from over time. The Right wants to rewrite our Constitution. They want to nulllify parts of it and establish something new that confers legitimacy on their push towads authoritarianism. Read Nancy MacClean, Professor of History and Public Policy at Duke Univesity. He book Democacy in Chains spells it all out. The Exteme Right aided and abetted by the Koch organization here.

. Whats important is that as we have evolved as a nation we have made out Constitution more INCLUSIVE. Adapting and really always trying to live up to the promise of Democracy. Inclusive of Women, POC, Gay Rights, etc. The "well regulated militia" was, I believe the framework for the way our National Guard evolved. It has nothing to do with these illegitimate militias that have been popping up all ove the place since at least the 1990's. In fact, the way our Govenment and our Constitution was established, by it's very nature there was an abhorence for a too strong central govenment which would become authoritarian and suppress our feedoms as spelled out in the Bill of Rights.

R321 they should have defined person as male,white, christian. We allowed Irish,German etc to be white which was enough generosity.

[quote] But...as I was saying, the reason our Constitution even discusses any of that shit is because of the conduct of the British leading up to the Revolutionary War.

The prefatory clause does not limit the right to bear arms. That prefatory clause was inserted for political reasons that existed at the time, as you mention, to announce a purpose but that has never limited interpretations of law or even other areas of the Constitution. The operative text and history is the right to bear arms. And, yes, the Court has upheld numerous restrictions on it as it has on other constitutional rights. The common law right of self-defense was also a major issue as is shown in similar clauses in other state constitutions written at the same time - but minus the militia prefatory clause.

And, obviously, the rights would attach to modern usage - so not restricted to muskets as similarly Fourth Amendment rights got extended to phone booths and wire taps.

Lose their jobs? How about some prison sentences with that?

Look, in Uvalde you have people who are determined to not only keep their guns but buy more guns. And you have a strong Republican, Trump supporting presence. Among the Latino population. The Mayor is a Republican, and you better believe the fat fuck Arredondo is too. Texas Rangers were on scene as well as sheriff and regular police in addition to these stupid School police. They insisted they had a barricaded gunman even in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Now they have suddenly come up with some guy who attempted to call the shooter to negotiate. It boggles the mind at how much they fucked up howTF can you be in denial of an active shooter when you have MULTIPLE calls from inside begging for help telling you he is shooting people, and you have cops in the fucking hallway outside the class rooms hearing the shots. One lie and one excuse piled on another. Almost childlike. You know. When a kid closes his eyes and believes you can't see him? This is shameful.

[quote] The First Amendment doesn’t guarantee you the freedom of saying anything, anywhere, at any time.

Exactly. That's because everyone understands that the government needs to impose some reasonable restrictions on free speech. So why should it be any different with the Second Amendment? The gun nuts think the Second Amendment guarantees them the freedom to own any gun, anywhere, at any time.

[quote] Throwing Beto out was a pussy move that had more to do with who he was and Hot Wheels’ inability to take the heat from a constituent, but it has nothing to do with the First Amendment.

A press conference held by public government officials in a public setting could be considered a limited public forum. A government official kicking someone out of that forum simply because they don't like what the person is saying has everything to do with the First Amendment. Once again, the deplorables are willing to trample the First Amendment while insisting that the Second Amendment is absolute.

WTF???

This is the full article tweeted about at R327. Yeah, that’s disconcerting. Message: “Please don’t report the consequences of gun violence.”

So why the fuck is biker trash providing security at the funerals?

Unbelievable, the rightwing cops got the rightwing bikers in there. They want the news media to leave and forget about them and how incompetent they were. This town is so corrupt. Had the parents' videos never come out (and presumably the cops were unaware parents were filming on their phones), the cops' bullshit story promoted by Hot Wheels would have been accepted as Gospel: the fault was teacher's who left a door open. It's obvious now why the fat mayor went ballistic on Beto: he interrupted their fake story about Good Guys with Guns. Beto smelled a rat and he was right.

Erin Burnett had kinda sexy Texas Senator Roland Gutierrez on last night for an update on the investigation, and he was told by the Texas DA before coming on air that he could no longer talk about it.

I mean...what in the convoluted Martin Scorsese film is going on here?

The shooter could have been a hero if he killed his bullies but chose a soft target.

r332

Don't worry, Within a month, Texas will have a law that says you cannot film law enforcement, or some crap like that

R334, you joke, but they would absolutely do something like that. Man, This poor town town of Uvalde is in hostile territory. I picked up on the hatred for Guiterrez, the guy in the state legislatue a couple days ago. But he said he was going to stay and talk until he got answers. They really do not want him there. What ugly people these Extremists are. These biker types would happily participate in a fucking civil war. These are the gun people. That fucking state has a lot of crazies. I'm finally beginning to appreciate how much courage it takes for Beto to run for office in that fucking hell hole.

Biden likely had these kids assassinated to make the NRA look bad . Biden is desperate to get his numbers up.

r336

I had r336 blocked already, r337. Can you believe the sludge-level of trolling we're getting?

R336 is running low on vodka. Trolling is getting desperate.

Dregs, r339, they're sending us the absolute dregs.

Police chief wasn't carrying a radio at the time of the shooting

Quel surprise!

ahem

I only hope some of these useless police officers have enough of a conscience to fucking kill themselves like the police officers who were complicit in the Jan 6th attack.

Can you imagine...he had no police radio on him!? I mean...how far is Miss Kitty's fucking saloon from the Uvalde police department?

[quote]The right to possess weapons for self-defense dates way back in common law before the US existed.

R306, no. Absolute horseshit.

The law in England during colonial times was that only men with a certain amount of land and/or ranking could own a gun. It was not allowed among the commoners. In medieval times you had to have a special license from the King to walk about armed. There were also many laws related to "brandishing" weapons, probably the most famous being you could be put to death for showing a weapon in the presence of the King, or his guards, or in his "hall," which was often broadly defined.

Until the lunatics took over the asylum, this was well known and well-briefed in the DOJ and the federal courts.

[quote]While it has been said that the question whether there was a common law right to possess or carry firearms is a disputed one (People v. Horton, 264 N.Y.S. 84, 87, affirmed, 239 App. Div. 610), it cannot be doubted that at least the carrying of weapons without lawful occasion or excuse was always a crime under the common law of England and was a part of our common law derived from that nation. The earliest enactment upon the subject of bearing arms (Statute of Northampton, 2 Edw. III, c. 3, enacted in 1328) seems to have gone so far as to make it a misdemeanor for anyone, except the king's ministers or servants, to go or ride anywhere armed by day or night. While it would seem doubtful that this statute was construed as broadly as its language warranted, it was recognized that the statute meant at least to punish people who went armed to terrify the king's subjects and that in this respect it constituted an affirmation of the common law.

[quote]In Sir John Knight's case (1686), 3 Mod. 117, 87 Eng. Rep. 75, the Report states (p. 118): The Chief Justice said, that the meaning of the statute of 2 Edw. 3, c. 3, was to punish people who go armed to terrify the king's subjects. It is likewise a great offence at the common law, as if the king were not able or willing to protect his subjects; and therefore this act is but an affirmance of that law; and it having appointed a penalty, this Court can inflict no other punishment than what is therein directed. And in Bishop on Statutory Crimes (3d Ed.), sec. 784, it was said (p. 531): Whatever we may deem of this statute, the leading offense punishable by it, namely, riding or going about armed with dangerous or unusual weapons to the terror of the people, was always indictable under the common law of England, and it has become a part of the common law of our states.

[quote]In further derogation of any supposed right to possess weapons conferred by the English common law, a statute was enacted in 1670 (22 Charles II, c. 25, sec. 3) which provided that no person not having lands of a yearly value of 100 pounds, other than the son and heir of an esquire or person of higher degree, should be allowed to have or use guns, bows, etc.

Pretty exhaustive compilation of laws on firearms from English common law and US States up to the 20th Century. Even the Texas Constitution gave its legislature the "power by law to regulate the wearing of arms with a view to prevent crime." Several States had total or near-total bans, and lots of severe restrictions on "brandishing."

Uvalde mayor is letting these guys patrol the area

One of the victim's dad is initiating legal proceedings against gun manufacturer Daniel Defense

Good, r349! Every one of those parents should do likewise. Although I think there is precedence that gun manufacturers can’t be held liable (DL legal eagles, please weigh in), keep them in litigation spending their money on lawyers.

The Uvalde mayor is a piece of fascist shit.

Superseding criminal acts will probably break any chain in duty of care.

Not even sure a lawsuit against the city/county would succeed. But they can try and hope for a settlement.

How about suing the maintenance staff which took an hour to find a master key?

Thing is suing in Texas doesn't get you very far. Hot Wheels got $10 million tax-free from suing the tree which fell on him while he was jogging through a rich neighborhood in the middle of a storm. After Hot Wheels became AG, he instituted tort reform to prevent any other Texans from getting a juicy settlement like he did. Hot Wheels is evil.

The AR-15 is not automatic, Jesus Christ. While you can get an automatic weapon in America, the amount of red tape required, not to mention the at least $10,000 tax stamp makes it nearly impossible. The AR-15 was actually rejected by the military, because they overheat at high rates of fire. I'm so tired of people who don't know anything about guns talking about them.

Ok mr. picky at r354. It’s technically a semi-automatic weapon. Still not anything an 18 year old should have.

This guy is horrible

The dialogue needs to change. Can we STOP calling ASSAULT WEAPONS like AR-15 whether they are automatic or semi-automatic (who cares) GUNS?

Talking points Republicans are using to distract from Uvalde

This discusses the mother who said she ran into the school to rescue her kids. Towards the end It shows an aerial of the school campus - didn't realize it had so many buildings.

R359, which makes Ted Cruz's "only one door" policy that much dumber

Okay here's Donut Operator. I always enjoy him. He's never political and he's former SWAT team. No longer with police and owns a skateboard shop. I think he has the biggest cop Youtube channel breaking down & explaining police shootings and operations.

Here he talks about Uvalde but gets pissed when people want an analysis before the info is in. He shows and explains an active shooter situation seen via body worn cam and what the issues are cops encounter during them.

He's also kinda cute. Scruffy but cute.

R361 That's great and all but nobody's doubting how difficult the situation is for the cops. Uvalde CLEARLY had no plan for this or adequate equipment to resolve it. I mean...it's 2022, why wouldn't ANY police department be SOMEWHAT prepared for an active school shooter? Their chief didn't even have a radio on him. Too bad the more info we get, the worst it's getting for Uvalde PD.

ALSO? Donut Operator is fucking HOT

He is very cute R362 but I loathe his hair.

[quote] why wouldn't ANY police department be SOMEWHAT prepared for an active school shooter?

Because they're just not. That's the reality of life. It's a small town with a small school and people don't live expecting the worst to happen to them. Otherwise, no one would ride the subway or go to concerts or parties or whatever. All these things take a lot of money and people always can find a lot of other things to spend the limited funds on they see a need for every day in their lives.

In many places cops are required to have their service revolver/gun on them 24/7 - which is why if cops can they don't live in the jurisdiction where they work. They don't want to be on duty every hour of every day they are outside their homes. Nobody should have that pressure on them continuously.

I so agree with Donut that we should wait for all the facts to come out and then condemn if that is called for. And save the condemnation for those that earn it - not every person involved.

R364, the police received active shooter training two months before the shooting happened, and, as everyone knows by now, received a remarkable amount of money; they accounted for almost 40% of the town’s annual budget. There’s no need to pretend otherwise.

A rightwing white supremacist motorcycle gang has descended on Uvalde and claim they're working for the cops to throw journalists and photographers out.

Yes, R366, I saw them on CNN pushing reporters around and saying they were there to help the police. They were pretty rough. Man, if we don't turn out the vote America will be Texas.

[quote] the police received active shooter training two months before the shooting happened

Real SWAT teams train practically every day. Unless you know what that Uvalde training consisted of it doesn't tell you much. Not saying they didn't botch this but we seem to be expecting a level of preparedness that may be out of reach of most police forces. Even getting the right people for the job may be a very hard task.

The city police budget is about $4 million. That's not really a lot of money and it's 40% because most other things don't cost as much. Even still. Parks and recreational things got $2 million.

We do know what their training consisted of, it's at the link at R273. Despite the efforts of the bootlickers out in force to keep covering for them, we know for certain the police were well aware that the #1 priority was to move in and stop the shooter as fast as possible. They acted out various exercises to account for different scenarios, including resisting the urge to stop and help the injured while the shooter is still active, and officers continuing to move in even if they don't have full backup or equipment.

They were told very clearly what's expected of them. “A first responder unwilling to place the lives of the innocent above their own safety should consider another career field."

Stop lying for them. If they don't care about children, they don't care about YOU.

R368, what is your vested interest in this? Because it's really obvious you have one. You think $4 million isn't much for a small town police force?? You think their training a couple of months ago just was too long ago?? You think it's just too hard to figure out what to do when there's someone shooting when the entirety of your job is focused on what to do when there's someone shooting??

So, are you a cop, former cop, or family with cops? It's definitely one of those.

Do Ignore-dar on R368. Total Republican nonstop talking points in many threads.

Trying to be objective is once again somehow bootlicking. Trying to wait until we have all the facts is bizarrely considered bias. Many of you do not live in the real world. You live in some TV fantasy world. Good luck with that.

r372

R372 thinks lying to protect the police is "trying to be objective."

R373 LMAO!

r376

^^^ LMAO

The antipolice crap is obnoxious. Humans are pigs and we need the police to keep us in line.

R372, trying to be bootlicking is once again somehow bootlicking.

R372 Uh-huh. I bet you're really objective. Again, the more "All of the facts" come out the worst it's getting. You're acting like there's a chance for some massive retraction of what's been reported.

Don't think that's happening. ESPECIALLY, with all of the covering up. The racist motorcycle gang ain't helping either

[quote] the more "All of the facts" come out the worst it's getting.

Then so be it. WTF is your problem with facts and objectivity?

Actually some of the original narratives have been debunked.

The mom who went in to get her kids is being threatened by law enforcement

^ 'Merica! ^ MAGA! ^Freedoms!

Florida undercounted Covid cases and deaths. Shocker!

^ Oops, posted in the wrong thread. Ignore.

Abbott has now ordered cops from all over Texas to go to Uvalde. WTF? What are they supposed to do? Give out parking tickets? Or try to find illegals? Abbott's playing more of his fucking games. He's stark raving mad now. McConaughey's speech has got to have killed him.

R382 Not sure how or why you're assuming I have a problem with facts or objectivity just because I'm not looking to give the Uvalde PD a pass for its ineptitude. Yes, things have been debunked because they were LYING which they've been doing from the beginning.

There's been MORE than enough information to make an ACCURATE assessment of the failure here.

What more do YOU need?

Our “well regulated militia” are the pistol packin’ good guy civilians who are supposed to be there when these things happen.

No, R389, that would be the state's well-regulated National Guard unit. Otherwise known as the military.

r390

The U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security warned on Tuesday that people in online forums known for hosting violent extremist content are lauding the mass shooting in Uvalde, Texas—and are pushing others to commit further attacks.

^ WTF? God, I want out of this shithole country.

The conservatives built this. They must be so proud.

The total amount of NRA funds given to schools to improve security since the program began in 2014 is less than $2 million, or .08 percent of the $2.2 billion in revenue the NRA and its associated foundation have raised in the same timeframe, from 2014 to 2019, according to an NBC News review of charitable tax filings and information from the Second Amendment organization.

The NRA is not responsible for a society which has demonized, disregarded, and disposed of young men, and their subsequent mental health.

You're fucked, R396.

[quote] a society which has demonized, disregarded, and disposed of young men, and their subsequent mental health.

Pray, lost the ways Texan society has done that, r396.

and maybe some of the 54 billion taxpayer $$$ Biden gave to the Ukraine could have been used to make schools safer. Remember Sandy Hook and Parkland? or how about some of 20 billion $$$$ earmarked for Build Back Better (and safer)

The NRA is typical of these money grabbing behemoths. Like the ASPCA and BLM - they end up being all about themselves and enriching their leaders. People need to be more skeptical of big organizations feeding off people's emotions.

Shame on them for not giving more money to help schools in the wake of the school shootings.

NRA trolls on the DL? As I live and breathe!

Only developed country with out of control gun violence: the good old USA. Every developed country has pissed off men, violent movies, violent video games, fatherless families but they all have sensible gun control.

[quote] maybe some of the 54 billion taxpayer $$$ Biden gave to the Ukraine could have been used to make schools safer

What, exactly, would that entail? 25 foot walls around school campuses topped with razor wire and corner towers with armed guards? Maybe a moat, too? Would teachers, in addition to having a supply cabinet in each room, have a SWAT chest as well?

Making schools “safer” implies instituting some sort of ludicrous Dark Age approach to solving a grave societal ill, similar to the days when the Barbarians roamed with impunity and forced what was left of civilization to hole themselves up in forts and bunkers in order to save themselves.

R402 jump to extremes much? Maybe the safety that exists in apartment buildings, banks, the many other schools who learned from Sandy Hook and Parkland and I will bet you that new safety measures, procedures and protocols will be in lin Uvalde come September. Parkland made many changes after 2017 when the school of 2500 and comprised of 2 buildings with i 1 security guard, no cameras and unlocked doors that made it easy for someone to open a door and enter the school unnoticed.

And none of it means squat, R403, if law enforcement just stands outside holding their dicks, when some breaches the security.

(^.^) It might mean someone with a gun or a grudge or a backpack of explosives will not have an EZ time getting into a building. as Ramos obviously did carrying 2 WMDs.

And I'll ask again R404 do you think that like Parkland. Uvalde will implement a number of safety procedures and protocols by the fall?

BTW what's your favorite Disney Princess movie?

r396, hate to break it to you, but the most violent criminals throughout history, in every country, are young men. There was never any point where the bulk of crime was committed by old men or women of any age. Fuck off, MRA incels

Both sides troll at r400 comparing BLM to the NRA

Another loon with a gun.

[quote]It might mean someone with a gun or a grudge or a backpack of explosives will not have an EZ time getting into a building. as Ramos obviously did carrying 2 WMDs.

So, the problem in your scenario is that the elementary school wasn't hardened enough like a prison, not that this psycho legally had "2 WMDs"? You are a fucking idiot.

Some more on the Uvalde shooting.

R409 What's your favorite Disney Princess movie?

R409 so no change to safety protocols in Uvalde? Same old same old like you.

R409 were your parents Brandy and Johnny Walker?

This is another Texas school shooting. Summer sports camp. Whether they learned from Uvalde or they already had these protocols in place I don't know.

This was at a black school in a black neighborhood. We don't know yet who the shooter is. A school staffer confronted him and exchanged gunfire. Couldn't get into any classrooms as they were locked. Doors were not able to be breached with his gun. Police showed up and killed him.

Or we could implement rational gun restrictions and use our tax dollars to actually improve education AND stand up for our allies in Europe. But that might make too much sense.

R415 Ukraine is not part of NATO and yet the Biden administration gave them $54B of our tax dollars. How much did the countries bordering the Ukraine give them?

Let’s see, Poland had taken in 2.5 Million Ukrainian refugees as of April. Housing, language and social services support… Maybe the US should offer to take in several million refugees instead? Oh right, you don’t like refugees either.

[quote] maybe some of the 54 billion taxpayer $$$ Biden gave to the Ukraine could have been used to make schools safer

The irony here, of course, was the gunman just locked himself inside the classroom with the kids. It was so secure that even the cops couldn't get in.

NRA had a fortune earmarked for school safety. They barely distributed any of it. Where's the money??? They get tens of millions and where is it? Not all of it went to politicians. Yes a lot of it did, but WTF? Where's the millions and tens of millions? Fuckers.

R418 the tragedy is that a stranger with 2 weapons could get that far in 2022 after Sandy Hook, Parkland , , ,

R418 did you conveniently skip over R414?

That's nice but does it =$54billion? and what is happening in Ukraine currently? The media has stopped covering it and there's been no talk recently about Putin and the threat of nuclear weapons which would certainly be bigger threat to Poland and Easten Europe than the US.

R417 ^ PS I wonder why we are no longer being bombarded with coverage on the state of Ukraine. Where's Sean Penn?

Gun-fucking loon at R420, the actual tragedy is that he had those guns to begin with. If he couldn't get in the school, then it's off to the local McDonalds or church. Or, should we lock down everything in society so maniacs like you and this shooter can have your military weaponry to cuddle in the place of your tiny, tiny dicks?

Biden should buy up ALL the AR-15s for sale in the US and send them to Ukraine.

R403, your argument for implementing amplified security is a rearrangement of the chairs on the Titanic approach—it doesn’t address the real problem and won’t change anything. And, comparing apartments and banks to schools is laughable as it is an apples-to-watermelons comparison.

Schools are and always will be, soft targets and “new safety measures” will not reduce the carnage. These types of structures are inherently and highly vulnerable and the reality is that nothing short of transforming them into fortresses, unless we treat the root causes of school shootings, will stop this deadly trend that is pervading our schools.

R403, my analogy isn’t jumping to an extreme at all. We are living in times where the rule of law itself is under constant threat.

R424 R426 and safety protocols in all public and charter schools changed AFTER Parkland in 2017. I wonder why?

R426 the root cause of school shootings is the easy access 18 year olds have to AR-15s

and the 'root cause' has existed for years and too many schools aren't prepared R428 and even in the unlikely scenario that all guns will be eliminated can you think of other reasons why mentally ill people should not have easy access to public schools?

[quote] and the 'root cause' has existed for years and too many schools aren't prepared

How else should they prepare exactly?

with concerned administrators, parents, security staff and teachers who learn through code red and yellow drills what problems to address that are particular to their school. and I take it you are not a teacher, administrator, security guard or parent R430 or else you would have known this has been going on in many schools for well over 15 years.

[quote] the root cause of school shootings is the easy access 18 year olds have to AR-15s

But that's the entire debate, isn't it? Is that the "root" cause? People disagree. I don't think it is. There are tens of millions with these guns - including many 18 year olds - and yet they only cause a small fraction of the number of deaths caused by hands & feet and blunt instruments.

The real root cause of gun violence is whatever causes people to commit violence against others. You're going after the tools rather than the cause.

Not the main concern of educators nor to parents regarding schools R432 The change in protocol and safety measures in Florida's schools following Parkland was in response to an incident which was a wakeup call regarding school safety.

R432 How odd every developed country in the world has those problems too but no mass shootings because of gun control. Keep trying, NRA troll.

R432 no one is arguing for or against the second amendment at Board of Education meetings.

Somebody on twitter pointed out that evangelical xtians basically view children as livestock.

Regardless of whether that's true, it's the plausibility of that statement that scares me.

[quote] How odd every developed country in the world has those problems too but no mass shootings because of gun control.

Juvenile name calling aside, you're just wrong. No. Those "developed" countries do not have the same levels of violence that the US has. They just don't. They never have.

The root cause is deeper and more complex than the tools people use to commit violent acts against others. Try to not be so kneejerk and think.

We have to figure out what makes one person pick up a gun and want to go slaughter people and what makes millions of other people NOT to that. Is it mental illness? Is it psychopathic behavior? Is it social contagion that affects sociopaths more? We better be honest and start examining this rather than thinking there is some quick fix, cause there isn't one.

R436, of course they are just livestock to Evangelicals. Those little babies are all just going to Jesus when they die, so it hardly matters if how long they live.

R432/R437, I will never understand your position, assuming that you are advancing it in good faith. We will never solve the problem of human evil. No one has for as long as human beings have existed, and that is a very long time. All we can be sure of is that unlimited access to guns will not help matters.

They can rarely predict who will do this kind of thing. Yes, you can and should limit weapons and keep them out of the hands of mentally unstable or violent people. But that is not always predictable, and some have no history before the act.

You will never confiscate all the guns nor will you outlaw gun ownership for the masses. So people need to start thinking in another direction.

R414 Law enforcement revealed the name of the gunman who wanted to shoot up the school outside of Dallas.

[quote]You will never confiscate all the guns nor will you outlaw gun ownership for the masses

That isn't the goal and you know it, r439.

[quote] You will never confiscate all the guns nor will you outlaw gun ownership for the masses

Murder will never stop either, but it's still illegal

[quote] Yes, you can and should limit weapons and keep them out of the hands of mentally unstable or violent people.

The Uvalde shooter was never considered mentally unstable or violent until he actually killed the kids. It's the same with many of these mass killers

These shooter are all "law-abiding citizens" till they start shooting.

That guy must be a true DLer. He certainly does not look 42.

[quote] Murder will never stop either, but it's still illegal

What kind of an analogy is that? There is no purpose or right to murder. There is a purpose, even positive purposes, and arguably a right - a Constitutional right - to own a gun.

Please stop with these false equivalencies. they don't make sense and don't offer any workable solutions.

[quote] What kind of an analogy is that? There is no purpose or right to murder. There is a purpose, even positive purposes, and arguably a right - a Constitutional right - to own a gun.

Scalia's Heller decision NEVER said Americans have the right to own any gun. In fact, he said many times that the government could put restrictions on who could own guns in order to keep society safe.

So, the analogy is correct--just because a crime will happen anyway doesn't mean it shouldn't be banned. Just because criminals will have access to guns doesn't mean the gun shouldn't be made harder to get.

It's not the goal R441 it's the reality we have to accept and plan for. The gun is a vehicle, the danger is in the intent.

[quote] The gun is a vehicle, the danger is in the intent.

The only point of a gun is to kill. The danger is the weapon.

Lawrence: Uvalde Coverup ‘Scheduled To Last At Least Six Months’

Abbott's scared shitless.

yet R450 he's polling ahead of Beto! Ramos killed those people, and the police and the school's response was to put it mildly insufficient

R448 people kill not guns or cars. School shootings are often the result of depression, revenge or bullying. 42, 915 people were killed in 2021 in vehicular deaths/homicides versus 169 killed in school related mass since 1999! Do the math and figure out your chances of being killed by a car vs a gun. A staggering statistic!

^ 'mass shootings'=3 or more victims and the stat of 169 since 1999 may not include the victims of Uvalde

R452 thank you for your insight, Wayne LaPierre.

We get the most imbecilic trolls, r454.

[quote]They can rarely predict who will do this kind of thing. Yes, you can and should limit weapons and keep them out of the hands of mentally unstable or violent people. But that is not always predictable, and some have no history before the act.

And some *do*, r439...

"Guns don't kill people. Doors do." -- Lying Ted Cruz

(^.^) United and American Airlines installed secure cockpit doors after 9/11 and 2400+deaths. and Parkland installed doors inaccessible from the outside and additional security after 2017.

Cars serve a purpose other than death, you fucking morons.

R458 and yet they still don't allow guns on planes.

THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED IF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HAD BEEN POSTED IN THE SCHOOL!

R460 and they still don't allow guns in school. I guess airlines have better security than schools

and yet motor vehicle crashes are the number 1 cause of death for those under 20 R459

Now Greg Abbott is fighting to avoid having records released. What are they hiding?

unpreparedness most likely R464 certainly they didn't kill anyone did they?

Call me when they release the photos or video. Until then it didn’t really happen in peoples minds.

Can someone seriously answer the question? Is there a FOIA for the video of the assault?

What about individual cell phone recordings. There must be a few. Where are they?

For non-Texans, back in April Abbott has diverted almost a billion from the budgets of health care, mental health care, prisons, to stick it all in Trump's idiot border wall. Nobody in Texas wants a border wall so this is solely so Trump will pat pathetic little Shot Wheels on his balding pate.

A journalist who is normally middle-of-the-road working for the non-partisan Quorum Report tweeted: "Gov @GregAbbott_TX has drained almost every other state agency’s budgets to fund DPS operations in South Texas. When DPS was on the scene of the #UvaldeMassacre in South Texas what did they do? Fucking nothing. Your tax dollars at work, Texans."

He is now reporting from the GOP convention in Houston. Poor turnout for the GOP: only 4,000. They booed John Cornyn and Abbott is so afraid of being booed after being booed at a Trump rally he went to and being booed while with Biden in Uvalde, he isn't going to give a speech.

[quote] 42, 915 people were killed in 2021 in vehicular deaths/homicides versus 169 killed in school related mass since 1999! Do the math and figure out your chances of being killed by a car vs a gun. A staggering statistic!

About 40,000 people die from guns each year. Your chance of being killed by a car and a gun are roughly the same. By you can take make precautions to prevent being killed by a car: seat belts, driver's license, protections of cars themselves, lessons to get a license in the first place.

Can't the NRA come up with a better argument than 'cars are dangerous too!' especially considering you have to learn to drive, get a license, pay insurance and regular upkeep and every year take your car in for inspection. If the rules for owning a gun were the same as for owning a car, we'd have a helluva lot fewer shootings.

Makes them look simple-minded.

driving is a privilege R469 and perhaps those privileges should be taken away from many drivers. Never knew anyone who was shot but I know a considerable number of people killed in accidents either as a driver or pedestrian. 3 of my eighth-grade classmates were killed in a single car accident and the driver lived. One of my co-workers was confined to a wheelchair after being struck by another car.

Uvalde Police Trying To Suppress Body Cam Footage From Day Of Shooting

R466 agree with you though as always people like to speculate and have questions including myself. One though why did the teacher need to prop the door open? it must have been a door that shut automatically when you walked out of the building and had no exterior handles allowing you to have access from the outside. Again, why would she need to prop it open otherwise?

[quote]Can't the NRA come up with a better argument than 'cars are dangerous too!'

Hammers! Doors! We're trying, r469

Shish kabob skewers!

R473 what's stopping you from coming up with a better rebuttal?

McConaughey released a video today of him visiting with Senators, Congresspeople and Biden. Notably missing was his very own Senator Lying Ted Cruz. McConaughey has now hired a lobbyist to work on gun control in Congress. I betcha McConaughey's gonna run against Cancun Cruz.

If you live in Texas vote for Beto and send Hot Wheels rolling in to traffic!

Cops claimed they needed time to get keys to unlock the doors....the doors weren't even locked

R478, you have to wonder if anything they have said about the shooting is true.

This is making me freak out.

I was hit by a guy driving a stolen car, me, a pedestrian, and I was completely on my own, as I was not in a car with insurance, and there was no one to sue, the person walked away, and the police never caught him. I had to use my own insurance, and, as this was before Obamacare, I reached my lifetime limit, and was in debt for 50K on top of that. I guess the NRA comparison would work in my case, given that gun manufacturers and law enforcement are unsueable.

I wonder who is going to pay for all the hospital expenses of the shooting victims who survived the shooting, ended up with exorbitant hospital costs and may be left with permanent disabilities. McConaughey paid for the funerals but what about the wounded survivors? These are poor people. They probably don't even have health insurance.

R480 this is why everyone must own a gun who can legally do so.

R468 your chances of being killed by a car is greater since vehicular accidents occur more frequently than shootings

R448 guns are also for safety

R483, this country is full of fucking idiots who can barely use grocery store self-checkout machines. Now they’re all going to have guns? Terrific.

I know many are allergic to reading lengthy articles, but read this one to the end.

It bears repeating. There was no clear command. The person everyone is blaming for failure to act or failure to order others did not think he had command. For one reason, the person in command should not be an active participant in the operation - that person being blamed was an active participant from the get-go.

This is not the first time that an operation involving multiple agencies encountered this problem.

[quote] guns are also for safety

Safety by threatening to kill someone...

[quote] your chances of being killed by a car is greater since vehicular accidents occur more frequently than shootings

Yes, because there are far more cars than guns. But that makes guns more dangerous as something there is much fewer off kills about the same number of people annually--40,000.

Uvalde shooting: Gunman could have been stopped within three minutes - safety official

Lawrence: Texas GOP Is More Concerned With Tow Trucks Than Mass Murder

I've solved our school shooter problem! If those rooms are so well-sealed in lockdown, just install some gas nozzles and pump the rooms full of knockout gas. All schools and public buildings should be build this way from now on. So much easier than not letting people have fucking machine guns.

Greg Abbott wants to continue to hide the truth about what happened

The other attempted mass shooting at a Texas school after Uvalde was stopped by a school employee who confronted the shooter with a gun and exchanged gunfire. That sent the shooter outside.

What is wrong with you, R488? It was an “abject failure” of law enforcement, per the Texas Dept. of Public Safety themselves. What more needs to be said to conclude that the Uvalde school district police dropped the fucking ball?

It also bears repeating, R488, that the very person who couldv’e and should’ve taken charge from the very beginning didn’t, and apparently deliberately shunned that critical responsibility. Why did he intentionally leave his communications devices behind? Why did he assume he was in no position to take any action when one of his essential duties was was doing just that specifically for this kind of armed shooter situation? That was why his school district police force was created in the first place.

You are one fucked up individual to consistently rationalize a glaring, gross dereliction of duty. You must be trolling.

r488 is also:

[quote]The other attempted mass shooting at a Texas school after Uvalde was stopped by a school employee who confronted the shooter with a gun and exchanged gunfire. That sent the shooter outside.

Ignore the troll.

This is looking like another cover-up to target Pete whatsisface and absolve the DPS who were on the scene, of the fact they did fuck all. Pete was the fucking school policeman - like the guy who is supposed to confiscate weed from students. They had a SWAT team arriving there immediately who did nothing? This is Abbott trying to cover his ass and designate a guilty party when all the money Texas has invested in these assholes along the border is proof he's wasted taxpayer money.

Hunny, the Republicans are scum. Literal scum.

R489 the entirety of the peace you have known during your lifetime was kept at the barrel of a gun. "Peace through superior firepower" is the reality of the world. All of human civilization is built upon the threat of violence.

Weapons increase violence. Duh.

Fuck this. Other countries have mentally ill people. Other countries have problems. No other country uses fear and anger to inspire people to grab a gun and do harm. No other country permits the promiscuous ownership of assault weapons for personal use. Plenty of countries teach kids how to use guns, to take them duck hunting or WTF ever. Do not try to get philosophical about this. When the fuck are we going to open our eyes and insist on living in a rational society. Things dont have to be that had. Why allow yourself to be manipulated by fear all the fucking time?

Right now I am watching commercials about hRow dangerous the Democratic Senate candidate is. He is responsible for inflation. He wants to make people pay more for their medicines. None of that is true. The Republicans offer nothing but fear, lies, division and anger. We can have a better healthcare system. We can have a better education system, we can have a stronger economy, and we can help save or at least slow down the deterioration of our environment. oads, bridges, electrical grids, clean water and clean energy, etc. it is all within our grasp. All of it. We could be so much better than we are. When people get murdered for going to a movie or a mall, or to church, when we sit here "negotiating" afte 19 babies are mudered, all of us need to get angry enough to get out there and dismantle these extremists who are holding us hostage,.

The GOP knows they can't hold their ground anymore.The Uvalde shootings, really hit hard. So they promote the lie that "this time is different" and start "negotiating" with regular bulletins on how close they are to an ageement, then we get this bullshit. Nothing wrong with it. Mental health dollars are always a good thing. But there's no assault weapons ban, no age limits, no background checks, no banning of high capacity magazines. And yet now they will stand tall and lie to the public that they "did something" to stop the violence while still protecting our rights? A fig leaf in time for the midterm elections. Pesonally I was offended that they believe we are that stupid. But then I remembered. A lot of us are that stupid.

Look. We need overwhelming turnout. We need more Democratic Senators and we need to hold the House. It is time to channel the anger and the frustation into votes. Run these treasonous, corrupt extremist bastards out of office. Fuck all the bullshit. It gets real simple. VOTE BLUE. Anyone who thinks there is no connection between the GOP's position on guns, and the Insurrection on January 6th is delusional. Assault weapons are weapons of war. You have a TV Network out here peddling lies, promoting white supremacy, and promoting fear and rage, you have the internet spreading disinfomation and recuiting unstable people, and you have no age limits and ready access to assault weapons. What did you expect to happen? Are the Democats going to save us? No, we are going to save us. The Dems are what we have to work with. And if we keep our foot in their asses they will do what needs to be done. It is time to step up.

The husband of one of the teachers, an officer, was detained because he tried to go in.

[quote] All of human civilization is built upon the threat of violence.

Duh! Because human nature unfortunately creates people who are up to no good. No good I tell you. And they sometimes have to be sat down.

Don't make me get the belt.

Funny that they don't have these mass shootings in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc. because they have common sense gun laws and their politicians aren't bought and paid for by the NRA.

It isn't just the laws or the NRA. It's the way they have all shaped US into believing this is normal or it's important to have a gun. As if these lunatics are building an arsenal for a war. Think about it. Because that is where this is heading. We have had guns around forever. But it's mostly been since the so-called Reagan revolution that this shit has gained traction.

R502 ever think of leaving? I did!