Why are lesbians more likely to dress as conventional husband and wife

Because they are at least TRYING to play the straight game.

Because it's normalised for women to wear pant suits but not forvmen to wear dresses, duh

Why not just marry a guy?

Because one is in the role of a man (husband) and one the woman (wife).

Because the combination of a lumberjack shirt and a bridal bouquet offends even their sense of style.

Maybe they feel someone should wear the pants in the family.

Because traditionally one is butch and the other is femme. They dress accordingly.

These days less so. I feel like there are a lot of femmes marrying.

And when you ask why the femme one doesn’t just get with a guy - because they hate men - even the femme ones. They want pussy only.

Good thing somebody wants it, get it before it dries up.

They look retarded.

Two husbands is worse.

Any lesbians care to comment? Because gay men obviously know jack shit about lesbians.

Yes, I'm waiting for the lesbians to comment because I'm a gay guy and I have no clue.

Well, at least it answers the question “Which one is the man in the relationship,” and when the guests arrive they can still say “Bride or Groom side?”

That’s one of the fugliest women I’ve ever seen. She looks like a cross between Howdy Doody and Corky from Life Goes On.

They dress in accordance with their gender identity. I’m a lesbian and if I dress up, I’m drawn to traditionally masculine attire and completely uncomfortable in dresses, skirts, heels, etc.

My sister is a lesbian. She hasn't worn a dress since the 80s.

It's interesting: perhaps because I'm not attracted to women, I have no problem with them wearing traditionally male attire, but men doing anything that feminizes them - even something as simple as a stud earring - is an immediate turn-off to me.

Some gay couples do a black tux and white tux.

Rojo Caliente!

Because they’re men in women’s bodies.

Not many guys can pull off wearing a dress.

R2 completely got it right. It's widely acceptable for women to wear suits but widely unacceptable for men to wear dresses/skirts. So that's really why.

The only thing the way they’re dressed there tells me is that Cynthia has cancer and the Make-A-Wish foundation got her a nice dress and beautician to give her her Dream Wedding.

Lot less common, OP? I haven't come across any gay wedding with one gay in a dress. Has anyone? I'm interested in OP's question but only the gay men part.

I didn’t know Cynthia Nixon was married to temple grandin!

Being a man is an upgrade.

Sad but true

Men wearing dresses is NOT acceptable in society -yet. But if anyone were to start a fashion trend among men, it would most likely be a gay guy.

I assume all of you fascinated by this get the images from the media. Personally, I've never witnessed a lesbian wedding where one is dressed like the "man" and one is the "woman." From what I gather, clothes are what one is comfortable in and has nothing to do with bedroom role play. Kind of boring, isn't it?

I've only been to lesbian weddings where both were wearing dresses and I despise the butch/femme thing because I believe it is based on internalized misogyny. I also think they look ridiculous.

Seems odd that Rojo is the one who got pregnant and delivered their child, since she clearly wants to be the husband in that relationship. And they’re basically the same age. Maybe Cynthia did not want to be pregnant due to her TV career?

It's like gay men don't assume husband/wife roles at their wedding because they just don't have the clothing options to do it. It's true that men don't wear dresses, but it does seem as though one guy could wear a conservative dark suit and the spouse-to-be could wear a flowery print - I don't know. I think guys just aren't interested in communicating that kind of message at their wedding.

R28, it's true that what you wear in day-to-day life is what you're comfortable in, but weddings are symbolic events and nobody makes decisions lightly about what to wear at them. But I don't go to many lesbian weddings and maybe this is less common than I think. I've definitely seen it more than once, though.

Women have been dependent on men forever. They have always been told that they were nothing without a man. A few decades of feminism and bra burning isn't going to completely change the collective female psyche. Many women still believe that femininity = weakness and masculinity = strength. The media and movies haven't helped much often showing women who are miserable until they find the right men/get married. Or they showed beautiful feminine women who hated other beautiful feminine women like on Dynasty. The message was "beautiful feminine women cannot be trusted, will hurt you, gossip about you etc. Only men can be trusted." Women have absorbed these messages for centuries. And if straight women have been affected by these messages then lesbians have as well. Women are newer than men to homosexual relationships. They have far less role models than gay men do. Even today, there's a war on women. There has always been one. And there sometimes is a war on women BY other women including lesbians. The oppressed often become the oppressors.

Women, even lesbians, maybe have more fantasies about what their weddings will be like. Fantasies based on what they see in the media, hetero weddings, etc.

Future generations of lesbians will hopefully break out of the dress / pants suit tradition.

Whatever, the Nazis didn't even bother to round up lesbians. No matter how crazy the attached body and mind is supposed to be, the womb is always valued.

Lesbian weddings. No, it's not all butch/femme. Far from it.

The day when Donald carries me accross the threshold at Mar-a-Lago, you bet I will be wearing my bridal gown.

Are you REALLY asking why one male in a gay wedding doesn't wear a dress?

Women tend not to look at pants as a symbol of masculinity. The assumption that pants = butch or "husband" will often lead you astray. A woman might wear pants to her wedding for purely practical reasons (i.e., physical comfort) or because she couldn't find a dress she liked. Some couples think two dresses is one too many in wedding photos.

Completely false R38. Butch/femme weddings are gendered and the gender roles extend into the relationships they have. Butches have short hair and wear men's clothes because they feel masculine or reject their femininity because they suffer from internalized misogyny and think a lesbian should be masculine.

Discourage, you really are a sincere person. Kudos.

R39, that's a working class thing from my observations. Upper middle class and wealthy lesbians are not tied into that conformity.

Da Brat essentially wore a blazer atop her dress. The best of both worlds!

[quote]Butches have short hair and wear men's clothes because they feel masculine or reject their femininity because they suffer from internalized misogyny and think a lesbian should be masculine.

Fine. Can you explain to me why Rojo Caliente decided to become pregnant and deliver a child? Assuming she feels masculine and rejects her femininity as you claim.

[quote] Butch/femme weddings are gendered and the gender roles extend into the relationships they have. Butches have short hair and wear men's clothes because they feel masculine or reject their femininity because they suffer from internalized misogyny and think a lesbian should be masculine.

I don't know any lesbians who think they *should* be masculine, or that they are obligated to be masculine--which is what that statement means.

I know many masculine lesbians who feel that short hair, comfortable clothing, etc suits their lifestyle (sporty), their frame (chubby), or their very limited desire to spend time styling themselves.

Most lesbians are slightly femme of center.

I really can’t think of anything more “female” than going to 9 months of OB/GYN appointments and then being admitted to the Labor & Delivery unit of a hospital to push a baby out of your vagina.

I can, TERF R45!

R46, you don’t have a uterus or a vag…so you don’t have an opinion.

R39, you Just need to get out more. Really. Don't be discouraged.

And BTW, gentlemen, you'd be shocked at how many of those "butch" lesbians are what you would call "bottoms" in bed.

Thus the old saying, "Butch in the streets, femme in the sheets."

The only lesbian wedding I've been to had both women in wedding dresses.

So this is fake news to begin with, damn it.

OP is a drunken psychotic lesbian

R43, why do many transmen choose to become pregnant? Remember the pregnant man on Oprah? Because these people need psychological help.

Cynthias is horrible. She showed her true colours with the filth she spewed about Buttigieg.

Cynthia married Emperor Nero.

Cynthia's wife looks more like a man than a bio man. She's so unattractive, she looks like a fat dumpy man..

Doesn't Cynthia have a few kids from a longterm relationship with a man? Is she bisexual? People don't suddenly 'turn' gay.

Cynthia is an Anne Heche situation.

Women's sexuality is more fluid than men's, especially when they want something.

Her ditched ex should take comfort in the fact Cynthia likely rarely has sex, Lesbian Bed Death is the rule rather than the exception. I knew that she wasn't getting laid when I heard the filth spew out of her rancid mouth about Buttigieg.

We HEART all genuine dieseltrucks/bulldozers, of which, sadly, there are very few.

They are intelligent, fun to be around, and not a threat to scarce meat supplies.

Most who call themselves Lesbyterians are really fish (aka str8 females) who will bolt for the first man who offers lifetime financial security.

A mans' suit more effectively camouflages a bulging gunt and wide, non-child bearing hips.

[quote]People don't suddenly 'turn' gay.

Many people conclude they're gay later in life, more women that men. It's not a bi thing, it's a realization thing. As for "lesbian bed death," ALL couples experience severe decline in sexual activity after a decade. You'll find out, youngsters.

Why do topics like this constantly appear on Datalounge, always started by gay men? It's so dumb.

This is rare. If you look at the wedding photos of lesbian couples on Instagram, most of them have both ladies in a dress. Most lesbians are tomboyish women, some more femme, some more butch/,Andro, then come femmes and then butches. They are the smallest percentage of lesbians. How often do you see a butch woman in everyday life? How many butches have you met, unless you go to gay bars and hang in LGBT crowds?

Butches are the only true lesbians. The rest are tourists.

R61 That's BS. Butches often copy stereotypical male look, which is totally opposite of what lesbianism should be. Femininity..women that look like women attracted to women that also look like women. A lot of this butches go FtM way and and up transmen. And a lot of butches date bisexual women, not lesbians

Because even the most masculine, butch lesbian is STILL a woman and STILL has a female body. Not a male body. It's not rocket science, OP. A lot of lesbians, unsurprisingly, really don't like men because straight males are utter pigs. My friend is a lesbian. Her preference is tomboyish/androgynous looking chicks with hot, feminine bodies, who wear boyish clothes.

DL gay men like to play up butch lesbians in order to appear superior.

I think traditional wedding attire whether tuxes or frou-frou dresses are kind of ridiculous. (On straight people as well FWIW)

There are a lot of lesbians who just refuse to wear skirts. It has very little to do with other markers of femininity. There’s nothing particularly inherently feminine or masculine about either skirts or pants. Some people are just more comfortable in one or the other.

In the early 90s I remember a lot of gay men in kilts with doc martens.

Cynthia Nixon isn't a lesbian. Many of these women who marry butches are not even into women. They don't really see their female partner as a woman but more like genderqueer. But then again it's like men who are into shemales, ladyboys, drag queens and transwomen. Are they really gay?

Is it your business?

Its BECAUSE they dress like they want to dress DUH !!!!!!! who cares how they dress. As long as theydont go around nude . For 90% of the population nude is a TERRIBLE look.

There are gay men who, obviously, prefer the male physique but go for femme men and there are gay women who, obviously, prefer the female physique, but go for masculine women. It's always been like that to my memory. However, there does seem to be a snobbery amongst gay men who go for masculine men and gay women who go for femme women. It's like they think that only they are legitimately gay and everyone else either suffers from internalised homophobia or misogyny.

R66 = my grandmother after the Schnapps

Very true R68!

Skyclad lesbian weddings are the best.

Aren't we past how people look? I mean, just look at the men posting here.

This thread is really about male superiority and why women who dress "like men" are attempting to take male privilege - oh so threatening to DL males. And the straight guys in Bible Belt states.

Pretty much.

There’s nothing particularly privileging about having heavy fabric between your legs.

That’s why caftans.

R59 that's actually not true, as a masculine bisexual guy, I've gotten hit on and propositioned tons of times by men who ho I thought were 100% straight

Men don't talk about it because society hated bisexual/sexually fluid men, but loves and encourages it in women

The simple truth

Hell I stopped being friends with this straight guy who really wanted to experimental and fool around but I just wasn't interested in him at all, a few years later he was on the news for stalking and trying to kidnap some woman he was in love with outside a Chic Fila A

Yep^

R63 wrote "Because even the most masculine, butch lesbian is STILL a woman and STILL has a female body." Oh is that why many butches are now identifying as transmen? But wait, I thought they were still women. No they are not and never were.

Most women are crossdressers. Mannish lesbians are exceptions to that.

Women can and do wear feminine dresses and skirts, makeup and long hair, and they also can and do wear tee shirts and jeans, no makeup and short hair. Any woman can dress in reverse drag any day and not draw any attention whatsoever. And the grass is always greener: I've been told by women that men have it easier at formal events because we always know what to wear; however, I've often been envious that a woman can wear practically anything tasteful and not appear to be dressed inappropriately.

We have uniforms and they have a world of color and opportunity available to them.

Now that it's trendy for gay men to be genderfluid and celebrity men wear hybrid ball gown/tuxedoes, I imagine more gay men's weddings are featuring one guy dressed like a traditional man and the other like a Billy Whatever in a ball gown suit.

[quote]Cynthia Nixon isn't a lesbian. Many of these women who marry butches are not even into women. They don't really see their female partner as a woman but more like genderqueer. But then again it's like men who are into shemales, ladyboys, drag queens and transwomen. Are they really gay?

Your conclusion is wrong. Political lesbians and ladyboi and tranny chasers are not the same phenomena. They both have confused sexuality, but their motivation is the opposite.

The men who are looking for men who dress like women are identifying as straight and are usually in a relationship with a woman and are doing it with men on the down low. So the lady boy or the transwoman is not a substitute for woman, but rather a substitute for man. These man are looking for a person with dick, but who has a feminine styling, so they can fool themselves that they are straight even though they are actively seeking men for sex.

While political lesbians are seeking butch women for a relationship even though they are not genuinely same sex attracted, but because they have psychological and emotional issues with men. So, a butch woman might be more attractive to them than a femme one.

More similar to political lesbians are "political gays", who are perhaps also more likely to have issues with women or grew up in conservative communities where sexes were separated and they have grown accustomed to occasional homosexuality. But they are not looking for a dick under the frock, but for a pussy under the beard. They don't like transwomen, but transmen.

How nice, R76. But you don't speak for women. Women like my 47 year old cousin who went through two marriages in her 20s that didn't work. At 35 she discovered she was a lesbian and has been with the same woman for over ten years. Two of her friends had similar experiences. It isn't as common as it used to be, but it still exists.

Maybe they just lack imagination? Mind you, a woman dressing masculine is accepted far more than a guy in a dress, in spite of Harry Style’s best attempts.

I'm guessing that Cynthia is more comfortable with the traditional pairing of masc/fem. She may be married to a woman but I think her mentality is that of a straight woman. Her spouse looks better in male attire, makes sense for her to dress that way.

[quote]You'll find out, youngsters.

I'm not a "youngster". I'm a gay man in a longterm relationship. I know I won't suddenly turn straight when I become elderly, that idea is just absurd. There are five gay people on both sides of my family, ten of us are gay, not bisexual, 100% gay.

A lesbian cousin told me, she definitely knew she was gay as a child, she said, she didn't know what the feeling meant at the time, as she had no sexual feelings towards either sex, but she simply knew she was "different".

I'm so tired of hearing about straight women who were either verbally, or physically, abused by a man (or men), then turn to women thinking a woman won't do the same. That's bullshit thinking. Lots of people are evil, gay or straight. I've heard of lesbians beating their partners. Straight people sure don't have monopoly on being crazy and abusive.

It's more common for lesbians because oppressed minorities often want to piss off the oppressor which in this case is the patriarchy. What does the patriarchy want? Effeminate gay men to laugh at and beautiful feminine lesbians to fulfill their sexual fantasies. The patriarchy believes it owns masculinity and nobody else can be masculine. So when gay men want to piss off the patriarchy, they dress and act in a masculine way. And it's the same for lesbians. This is why masculinity is worshippped both in the gay male and lesbian communities. If we lived in a matriarchal society and the heterosexual matriarchy took ownership of femininity and discriminated against feminine people, you would see gay men and lesbians worshipping femininity instead of masculinity. It's about pissing off the people who control you.

Does Hillary C have a wife or gf?

R85 Wouldn't it make more sense to worship femininity if you are against patriarchy, R85?

I think it's also a normal part of the gender continuum, as much as anti-trans people here will hate to hear that.

Our bodies can be objectified neatly but our perceptions are entirely subjective.

Many straight men want to see themselves as ugly, large-bodied brutes who can fix things, and tall ones are just as content being large through fatness as shorter ones become musclebound to take up more space. Many women love that.

Hetero-minded people tend to see masculinity as big and forceful.

Gay men see masculinity as fat-free hard bodies with bulging musculature that looks like the segmented body parts of an insect. It's an entirely different idea of what the ideal man is supposed to look like.

Outwardly, gay men and straight men have the same features but we tend to groom differently to appear differently to the world and to ourselves because we have an idea of what we are supposed to look like, and it's a self-created look through styling.

The normal hetero idea of an ideal-looking woman is a waifish pretty girl just beyond adolescence and many straight women spend their lives trying to stay in that phase forever, which is totally bonkers since it is a transient developmental phase like childhood is.

Many lesbian women have an entirely different view of a woman, more like the way straight people idealize men. They just appreciate a mature woman's actual, natural body, the broader and lumpier the better. Big hips, big saggy boobs. They love it.

And curiously, many gay women also have sort of a gay man's view of the ideal man they want to look like as being well-groomed, slim and well dressed. And of course, many mannish lesbians can be easily mistaken for a short blue-collar auto mechanic, a rough-and-tumble, fat but strong straight person's idea of what a man should be.

We all have an idea in our heads of how we take up space. We are almost all wrong objectively. It's why we cringe when we see ourselves in motion on video and hear our voices.

It's not only transgender people; nearly all of us have a clear idea of how we present and it is not compatible with objective reality.

I am a gay man and in my mind's eye, I am a relatively handsome-if-weathered middle-aged guy who (get ready to snicker!) looks a little younger than my years. But just an average guy. Well, that doesn't really match the objective reality. In photos I take of myself, I am an average, handsome white guy. In candid photos taken by others, I'm a gawky gay man with skinny wrists and long hands who always seems to be rolling his eyes. I hear myself as an average man but objectively, I have a gay voice that my mother once correctly described as sounding like the voice of a menopausal woman.

So unless we see and hear ourselves recorded regularly, our ideas of ourselves really do not match well with how we really come across in the world. Some men see themselves as pretty women in their minds and dress as if they are, and some pretty women see themselves as rugged dudes and dress as if they are, and many of these never really understand that the two can never match.

[quote]Cynthia... I think her mentality is that of a straight woman.

WTF does that mean?

He probably meant a frau R 89.

R83, her spouse looks like it came out of a J.R.R. Tolkien book.

R89 Conventional marriage, doting on/controlling her children, passion for Kitchen Aid standing mixers and French-tipped manicures, obviously.

No R87. The patriarchy loves feminine women. So by being a masculine woman, a butch feels she is going against what the patriarchy wants her to look like. Of course she ends up conforming to something else and ends up giving the patriarchy even more power. But it's still the feeling she has of pissing off straight powerful men who don't want to look at ugly, butch women. The patriarchy also likes to believe that all gay men are effeminate fags who lisp so masculine gay men are the opposite of that.

Actresses are nuts. Start there

Gay men see masculinity as fat-free hard bodies with bulging musculature that looks like the segmented body parts of an insect. It's an entirely different idea of what the ideal man is supposed to look like.

THANK YOU

Cynthia Nixon can do whatever she wants in her personal life. But she stepped way over the line when she forced the writers on AJLT to remake Miranda into a caricature of Cynthia Nixon. Che Diaz is an abomination.

[quote]The patriarchy loves feminine women

The patriarchy loves "feminine" women. That means it loves women who keep house, cook dinner and shut up. And are ready for sex whenever he husband wants it.

I’ve only been to one lesbian commitment ceremony (they couldn’t have married at the time). I don’t remember what they wore but I remember one of them suggesting that instead of rice being thrown they should ask people to throw turkey basters.

I LOVE THAT. She didn’t normally have a wacky sense of humor but it would’ve been such a perfect statement about what the heterosexual world expects from and permits in its bonding ritual.

And R88, your post nearly redeems this entire website. There ARE insightful, well-spoken people here!

It's who you know. I've been to 4 weddings and the women wore dresses, they were bisexuals marrying lesbians so there's that.

R80, the guys I've met who are into fucking transwomen/ladyboys/shemales are not closeted gays. They like the dicks and the tits. They are no bisexuals either. You would have to create another category for them. I think it's the same with women who are into very masculine women/bulldykes/transmen. These women are not gay, straight or bisexual. They like someone who is half man, half woman. A man with a pussy. A man with big tits and a strap-on. You have to create new categories for such people.

Many straight people don't bother, it's all just "fags" or worse.^

I like butch lesbians because they’re the ones who aren’t afraid to show how ugly as men women can be without hiding behind makeup and crap.

Makeup and spanx

R100 Ok, you might have met bi guys with a fetish who are not in the closet, but the majority of them are the guys who claim to be straight and think that if a guy puts on a dress it doesn't count as homosexual. I have read in Boy George's autobiography that many men who slept with him claimed to be straight and that they had seen him as a girl because of his make up, but undressed he didn't look like girl at all. He has always been a big buff guy, tall with broad shoulders. And the face was the one of a guy with the make up. People can really be delusional when they are unable to accept a shameful part of themselves.

The guys paired up in prison are "straight" too. This has been going on forever.

I’ve always thought it was strange- out of my understanding.. But hey- it does not hurt me and it makes some couples happy- that’s all that matters.

Yea, but in prison you have no other choice, it is pure situational homosexuality, although I believe that some purely straight guys would rather jerk off. While those guys pursuing trans and ladyboys and guy in drags have other options and usually have wives too.

The simple fact is that when you're shopping for a topper for your wedding cake, you've got a much bigger selection if one partner is wearing a wedding dress and the other a tux or suit.

“ I've only been to lesbian weddings where both were wearing dresses and I despise the butch/femme thing because I believe it is based on internalized misogyny. I also think they look ridiculous.“.

There are more feminine gay women now who are attracted to other ladies . I rarely meet I will gay woman is attracted to Butch’s especially the butches . Stay encouraged!

A lot of lesbians really reject their gender and secretly harbor hatred towards women. Very sick and avoid them at all costs

A significant number of gender confused lesbians are autistic. They have zero self esteem

R104, Jon Moss of Culture Club had a relationship with Boy George. Jon was straight before being with George and after. He was married to Barbara Moss and they had 3 kids.

R85, utter crap. So let’s look and behave like a brute man to get back at men . That’s not even a sexual attraction that’s pure hatred of 50% of the population. I do feel sorry for the feminine women who are truly attracted to women.

Straight before and after, haha, you are funny.

Moss claimed he was straight during the relationship too.

Btw, you don't have to be straight to produce kids. My friend who is gay is a father who was married in his 20s.

IME, only good-looking women "realize they're lesbians" later in life. Let's face it, if you're 47, fat and ugly, no one cares if you've changed your stated sexual orientation.

Good-looking middle-aged women are a hotter commodity as lesbians than as straight women.

I’m a gay guy who lives in LA and yea can assure you there are plenty of good looking young gay women r115. I don’t get the lesbian hate from some gay men. It’s depressing

Maybe we only know the bitter rural manhaters.

Rojo Caliente looks like an ugly guy. Love truly is blind for some.

R116, take into account that the Datalounge is made up of fifteen year olds and seventy-five year olds.

Rojo is no beauty, certainly, but she has an intelligent, kind face. Maybe I'm just old, but that's what I look for now.

Plus, and call me crazy, I find conventionally attractive faces kinda boring. And, which is not cool, I tend to expect vapidity from the exceptionally attractive. I too often judge books by their covers, and it's foolish and unfair.

God, R120 there is not just conventionally attractive and fugly in the world.

Don't believe I said there was r121.

R122, for the record, I'm R118, not R121. I agree that unconventional looks can be quite appealing. I had a guy in my life once who had a nose like Cyrano de Bergerac but he was incredibly hot to me. And there was another guy, who had a very Jewish face and a bit of a hairlip, but he drove me wild. I've also been with some of the best-looking guys on earth, like this sexy black actor who played a fireman in a John Travolta movie. And everything in between.

Having said all that, Rojo Caliente is just fug to me. As I said, love is truly blind.

I wanted to see Cynthia Nixon elected governor just so I could see that wife of hers introduced as the "First Lady of the state of New York."

Does Rojo identify as a woman, or is she "they/them"?

Rojo--the name and face of a dog.

How to do butch chic (Julie Andrews, not Rosie). Ahhh, if most butchy/androgynous lesbians looked as good as Julie does in that interview, I would be all over them. But they don't. Not even close.

Cynthia Nixon's bio daughter also transitioned to male. There is obviously a whole lot of gender confusion in that family.

Was she promoting Seinfeld with that puffy shirt?

Oh my lord, Julie Andrews was not butch.

Most women--straight, gay, whatever--cut their hair shorter as they age because it is easier to color/dye.

How many women over the age of 60 do you see with long hair?

R131...

Ahem, R131

R132 sees Susan Sontag running around...weird.

R131, my 80 year old mother has long hair. Julie Andrews is what butches should look like. Elegant in a suit. Classy.

As I said, it's easier for women to DYE THEIR HAIR.

Don't show me Joan Didion or any other aging hippies who don't care about their appearance.

Most women over the age of 60 have short, easier to dye hair.

Name one Golden Girl or Jessica Fletcher or any woman of that age who takes care of herself with hair that is even shoulder length.

I'll wait.

"sees Susan Sontag running around...weird."

What's weird, R134, is your sentence. Care to rephrase, for clarity?

And calling Didion an "aging" hippie "who don't care about their appearance" is actually just stupid, R136. Didion wrote. her most famous essay sharply and critically observing hippy culture. And she wore Chanel suits, and got her hair styled at Bumble and Bumble. Oh, and she posed for a Celine fashion ad in her 80s.

My wife is over sixty and still has long hair and, imho, is gorgeous, so it can be done

That said hair thins as you get older so if you aren’t starting with exceptionally thick hair, pulling it off is difficult.

Crystal Gayle is still rocking it.

Goldie Hawn is still sticking with this look at 75

[quote]Oh my lord, Julie Andrews was not butch.

On the Datalounge she is. A real lesbian like Susan Sontag is not butch because she had long hair.

Will you please get with it, R131?

Looking at R133's post, tell me this - why have we never discussed Harrison's Ford's bad nose job?

R138 EkderLez How old are you and how long have you and your wife been together?

I am in my fifties and my wife is in her sixties and we’ve been together for three decades.

Yes, Harrison Ford does have a horrible nose job.

Do lesbian weddings all have cash bars?

Weddings are for women! Period. They plan for it their whole lives. The women wearing pants are definitely making a statement.

Because women are openly affectionate with each other there is a large part of mainstream that doesn't accept that women are lesbians. Straight men even fantasize about women having sex. They just don't believe a woman can romantically fall in love with another woman. For that reason, a lot of people see lesbian weddings as boring and unreal. I think the bridal party wants everyone to know two women are getting married hence the butch dresser.

Men don't need a lot of fanfare. Two men wearing suits, standing together holding hands and lovingly gazing into each others' eyes kinda says it all.

There is a formality to a wedding ceremony. Until the recent awareness of trans issues, men in dresses in western cultures has primarily been for performative purposes... which has usually leaned towards comedy. Men don't wear dresses in weddings because many feel that would distract from the seriousness of the wedding ceremony. Dress pants are perfectly acceptable for women in formal settings.

[quote] Do lesbian weddings all have cash bars?

Say what you like about lesbians, but I somehow think they'd serve free liquor, on the house.

Cash bars seem more like a Bridezilla, straight couple thing.

I could be wrong.

"Oh is that why many butches are now identifying as transmen? But wait, I thought they were still women. No they are not and never were."

What an utterly stupid response, R78. First off, not all butch lesbians are identifying as transmen. Secondly, they're still women regardless of what they claim to be. They have xx chromosomes. They have a female reproductive system not a male reproductive system. They went through female puberty. Not male puberty. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness. A woman claiming she is male doesn't mean she actually is male and, yes, contrary to your BS she has always been a woman whether she likes it or not.

[R128] They're dressed the same?

[quote]They just don't believe a woman can romantically fall in love with another woman.

R147, that's the easy part. What men don't understand is how women can have sex without a penis because men think the penis is some magical instrument that drives women wild. I feel sorry for their wives. I supposed gay men think that too because all they know about females is from porn.

Maybe if it had a vibrate function?

I watched lesbian porn and they definitely get off. It’s very sensual

Lesbian porn is sensual? Lesbian erotica, yes, but porn is never sensual.

Porn is male

More and more women will end up with women and marry women in the future.

I did go to a lesbian wedding where both brides wore poufy white dresses. It was weird, visually. Kind of like two overgrown flower girls.

Older millennial here, and I've seen what OP is describing only once: a lesbian couple who are friends with a good friend of mine, and who got married around 4 years ago.

The one who wore the suit has since got her tits sliced off, declared herself non-binary and is using they/them pronouns, all within the past year. No name change though, and as far as I know, no T shots yet either.

It will always be more acceptable to be a lesbian than to be a homosexual male.

Women can (and have always done) whatever they want. More women have eaten a pussy than sucked a dick. Modern women know they have to suck dick if they want a man. Fifty years ago a hand job would suffice.

More men have licked a pussy than have sucked a cock. Modern men know they have to eat pussy if they want to be with a woman.

Men generally suck cock for reciprocation. But because a lot of you are whores and will take all cummers, men can get their cocks sucked by other men without having to reciprocate. This is also why a lot of men (who receive blow jobs) claim they are not gay - but that is another conversation entirely.

Men set the financial standard for every household and women set the social standard.

It's funny that people say a man marries a woman to make an honest woman out of her when in reality, it is the opposite. The woman gives the man social credibility as she softens him.

Provided that a woman is not a whore or a criminal, she can do anything she wants and be respected. Lesbians know they can wear what they want!

R159, I liked your post a lot, but disagree that lesbians can wear what they want. A really butch lesbian can really anger people. I'm not joking.

True R160. They anger me.

R159 "More women have eaten a pussy than sucked a dick" And the dumbest post of the day goes to...

Yeah that part was BS

R162 Believe it or not, a lot of women don't like to suck dick. It was a lot less common just a generation ago. Keep in mind it was considered sodomy. Please educate yourself before calling others stupid.

STUPID!

Women who refuse to suck dick tend to be unable to keep a boyfriend.

[quote]Fifty years ago a hand job would suffice.

Those were the days...

R160 People get "angry" about everything nowadays and love to use the words "trigger" and "trauma." It is usually just an excuse to blame someone else for their own insecurities.

My point was that people may get angry seeing a lesbian but the worse she will "likely" get is some stares and maybe nasty comments but compare that to someone getting "angry" at a man in a dress who (depending on the circumstances) is liable to get his ass kicked... or worse. This has ALWAYS been the case for effeminate men (and boys) in general. For that reason I think a lot of men will think twice about what expressing femininity in their apparel.

R165 I don't disagree with that. Nowadays that is VERY much the case. ORAL Sex is an important part of most couples' (gay and straight) sex lives. They gotta give up the pussy too.

R164 Even if majority women hate sucking dick, there's still not more women that have licked pussies. Where is your logic behind that? By your logic, more men have sucked dicks than women had.

[quote]More women have eaten a pussy than sucked a dick.

Where did you read that information. On the cabbage leaf?

They seem to do so almost jokingly to some extent -- "Look at us! Aren't we making fun of the patriarchy?"

I don't think that oral sex has the same importance in hetero relationships as it has in same sex relationships and don't believe that sucking dick/eating pussy is a must if you want to keep the partner. I think that petting and vaginal intercourse is main on straight repertoire.

DL straights/bisexuals, am I right?

Lesbians don't have sex, which they believe to be a patriarchal construct.

R169 = gay male's version of straight women

R172, intercourse doesn't produce orgasm, therefore, oral is very important for females.

Straight woman here-oral sex is very important to me and is part of EVERY sexual encounter. When performing oral sex I enjoy giving my partner pleasure …and the feeling of power, confidence and satisfaction I get. Receiving oral sex is hands down the BEST feeling in the world. So it’s always mutually beneficial and I don’t know why anyone wouldn’t love it :)

R175 Radical feminist lesbian are you? If intercourse didn't produce orgasm, lesbians would never use dildos.

Lesbians don't use dildos, R177.

Bearing in mind all the fashion crimes committed by gay men throughout time, why so quick to pounce on lesbians for some of their sartorial choices?

No, R172, you're wrong. I don't know any heterosexual people who don't engage in oral sex. It's usually what leads to full blown penetration.

Lesbians usually have a deep psychological need for a man. And so their relationships normally result in one of them playing as a man. Gay men have no such need.

[quote] They seem to do so almost jokingly to some extent -- "Look at us! Aren't we making fun of the patriarchy?"

I think this is an underrated point. None of them get married without a little winking and making fun of marriage. Gay men usually are very earnest about their weddings, perhaps why gay male divorce rates are a fraction of those for lesbians.

It seems to me that many Lesbians have a granola-flavoured version of the fairly standard female “fairy tale ending and happily ever after” take on marriage. They get married more often (often in outfits that hew closely to straight people at their weddings), they get married much quicker, and they are prone to breaking up when happily ever after fades and the monotonies of daily life and the aggravations of living with someone who farts in their sleep and sometimes steps on your feelings set in.

In the couple of decades leading up to gay marriage, I think the general view was that gay men would be the ones having dramatic short-term marriages and lesbians would have have much more solid companionate ones, but I think the opposite have proven true. Gay men often seem like “old married couples” on their wedding days and usually don’t get married until they’ve gotten their slut years out of their system - and even if the still have the occasional tomcat urge, they seem to be people on earth who can negotiate a certain amount of non-monogamy in a long-term relationship with minimum dramatics and resentment.

Most lesbian weddings have both brides in wedding dresses.

R183 wrote "In the couple of decades leading up to gay marriage, I think the general view was that gay men would be the ones having dramatic short-term marriages and lesbians would have much more solid companionate ones, but I think the opposite has proven true." That's because the war against women and femininity has dramatically increased in the last two decades. Beautifully feminine and talented singers like Enya, Whitney Houston, Stevie Nicks and Sade were replaced starting in the late 90s with talentless prostitute-looking women like Britney Spears, Miley Cyrus, Nicki Minaj and Lady Gaga. Paris Hilton, The Kardashians and The Housewives became the new models of femininity while at the same time the woke butch/trans/genderconfused identity was growing and being pushed as an alternative to the slutty looking women in entertainment. Women were now given two choices: either look and act like a whore or reject your femininity, cut off your hair and now it's cut off your tits too. This has had a dramatic impact on all women of all sexual orientations. Lesbian couples I know who have solid and loving relationships and have been together for a very long time, met before the year 2000. They are older lesbians who have been together for 30-40 years. This is why in the couple of decades leading up to gay marriage, people believed lesbians would have solid long-term relationships but the newer lesbians are completely different. They are destroyed mentally.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a political arranged marriage. Christine looks weird even for a butch. She looks like a 15 year old boy with hormonal problems. I can't understand how anyone could be attracted to her. Also, Cynthia's bio daughter is trans. I wouldn't be surprised if in the near future we learn that Christine is transitioning to male. There's a political agenda behind this strange union.

Cynthia looks beautiful in this picture.

I think the masc-femme gender roles are stronger among lesbians than gay men.

All of the lesbian relationships I know have one who is very butch, like the “man” of the relationship, and one who looks/acts like a traditional woman.

All of the gays I know are both equally matched in terms of masculinity. Even in my own relationship, I couldn’t say who is more the “man”. We both have similar demeanors, dress similarly, have the same amount of muscle mass, make about the same amount of money, have traditional “man” jobs, share the household responsibilities.

This is just observational, but gay men seem to be their own brand, while lesbians seem to lean more “husband” and “wife”.

R188 Sweetie you need to get out more. I agree with you that a lot of college educated/professional gay men tend to present themselves as two masculine men in love, lesbians have not exactly cornered the market on the "husband" and "wife" model. I know plenty of gay men who consider themselves to be "wives." And don't even get me started on the gender roles associated with the whole Top/Bottom identification debacle.

You don't notice the femme/femme couples because they don't stand out R188. Butches stand out. Secondly who do fem gay guys date? There are plenty of you out there. You're talking as if only masculine gay men exist. lol. No dear. The fem boys are plentiful. Also, why do gay men constantly call other gay men QUEENS?

It's certainly true for weddings. I've never seen a single gay male wedding with one groom in a dress and the other in a tux. But it seems like almost all lesbian weddings go for that.

[quote]All of the gays I know are both equally matched in terms of masculinity.

What about top/bottom strict role playing?

"But it seems like almost all lesbian weddings go for that." No they don't. Get out more.

That looks like a blog does not look like it represents ordinary lesbians yet has several yet dress/tux on it.

The younger gay women are embracing their femininity and true lesbian attraction is women who look like women.

You're an idiot R194. It shows actual lesbian weddings and most of them are femme/femme, not butch/femme.

Those look like influencer or promotional lesbian weddings. Most lesbians are not femme.

R197, is a tranny shit stirrer .

There are very few high femme lesbians.

R199, get out more sweets . Most of them do not announce to world

Datalounge is filled with right wing conservatives pretending to be gay men.

R188 You don't know many lesbians then. Most of them are either tomboys or more feminine tomboys. There's not that many butches. And most femmes are attracted to tomboys or other femmes.

[quote]Most of them are either tomboys or more feminine tomboys. There's not that many butches

???

What's the difference between a tomboy and a butch?

I've NEVER seen a single man-man couple with one of them in a dress, so yes it is more common among lesbians than any other group.

Also, I’ve NEVER witnessed one lesbian say to another woman that she makes her clit throb!

You were out to lunch that day, Rose.

[quote]All of the gays I know are both equally matched in terms of masculinity.

HA HA HA BA HA HAAAAAAA!

🎶WILD THING! You make my clit throb🎶 You make my heart sing🎶You make everything groovy🎶I want you to hold me tight🎶Wild thing🎶

Tomboys are boyish, attractive and not overtly masculine, R203. Butches, on ther hand, are overtly masculine, are not particularly attractive in my experience, and are not pleasant to be around. They can also be extremely condescending and patronising towards more femme women, especially towards straight women. I prefer tomboyish women, tbh. They're the best of both worlds. Butch women just don't do it for me. I detest the word "butch" too.

*on the other hand.

R209, exactly! Butch women hate women.

By tomboy do you mean soft butch?

It was always tomboy. Then it was changed to soft butch. I get the reasons why a lot of lesbians don't like the word tomboy for obvious reasons, but I really don't like the word butch, R212.

Butches hate anything female . It’s self loathing to its core

The chart at R199 is helpful.

I make over 150K a year and therefore butches are not in my social orbit.

A lot of professional women are business butch. Think Suze Orman types.

I've always found women who present femme, but have a "butch" (masculine) personality attractive. Jodie Foster is a good example. Amber Heard would have been another good example too if she weren't a pathological liar and bedshitting psychopath.

R217, if you think Suze Orman is a butch, it's time to emerge from Mother's basement.

Yes, R218. A "masculine" personality, such as, having an opinion and not deferring to men.

Suze Orman is most certainly butch.

Tomboys don't usually look like men. Tomboys can be lesbian, straight or bisexual. They're sporty, can be very pretty and don't wear dresses very often. Butches are ugly and get mistaken for men. They often act like stereotypical blokes.

R16, are you male or female?

There's no need for the cunty BS, R219.

R230 see R221

That should be R220 see R221

Soft butch is a thing.

Not every butch is stone-butch.

Who said it wasn't, R226?

"Butch" sounds gross. Sorry, but it does.

R223, read this thread and repeat that question. With sarcasm.

Suze Orman is butch. Not all butches are stone butch. JoJo Siwa is butch. Butch is a broad spectrum.

No she isn't R230. Butches reject anything feminine. Suze likes to wear feminine clothes, jewelry, makeup, she has a short but feminine hairstyle. She's not butch.

See R199. It's a spectrum. There's no single cut-off point.

R218 Jodie Foster isn't really a femme. And Amber Heard is bi. Terms femme and butch are used for lesbians, not straight and bi women.

Whoever says Suze Orman is "butch" is high on crack cocaine. Rosie O'Donnell is a better example of a rich butch woman.

Suze is aggressive (as many professional women are) but she wears feminine clothing, always has her hair and makeup done. She wears jewelry. She talks in a soft voice. She doesn't talk with the condescension of someone pretending to have a big dick. And with that "Karen" haircut she looks like a suburban soccer mom.

She is very mainstream. She's "passable." Most people would not even know she was lesbian if she didn't say it. Butch lesbians are the opposite of passable (same with sissies). They WANT you to know.

JoJo Siwa is butch and wears makeup. She doesn’t countour or go for a sexy look though. She often wears stud earrings, many butches do that.

JoJo Siwa is not butch! OMG do you people not know what a Butch lesbian looks like???? It is a very distinct look!

[quote] Men wearing dresses is NOT acceptable in society -yet. But if anyone were to start a fashion trend among men, it would most likely be a gay guy.

Actually the NYPD tried to revolutionize fashion but it didn't go down well with the minorities

The strange thing is a lesbian couple will say there is no butch or femme in their relationship when there so obviously is.

Not butch at all...

The fact that on this thread some people consider Suze Orman butch and some people consider anyone less masculine than Leslie Feinberg femme just goes to show how socially constructed visual markers of gender are. And I’d guess ( based upon my limited anecdotal experience), very much tied to what constitutes normative femininity in one’s socio-geographic upbringing. Suze Orman seems butch to me having grown up in an impoverished area. And for the same reason flannel shirts and work boots aren’t to me, but when my wife visited my home town for the first time she thought the area was full of lesbians, because of all the toothless ladies in cheap functional clothes.

[quote] just goes to show how socially constructed visual markers of gender are. And I’d guess ( based upon my limited anecdotal experience), very much tied to what constitutes normative femininity in one’s socio-geographic upbringing.

Precisely. When datalounge still had a separate lesbian section somebody jumped all over me because I referred to Janine Turner as soft-butch.

Some people seem to regard Butch as referring only to Stone Butch Diesels, but Butch can also be used to refer to Soft Butch -- short hair, wear women's clothes but not frilly dresses and pink stilettos, would not be mistaken for men yet also clearly ping to those in the know.

R234 = NAILED IT

Funny how so many gay boys at the DL are experts on females and female sexuality.

When I think of a butch lesbian, I think of someone like Lea DeLaria. Someone without a trace of femininity and is basically a straight man in a woman's body.

Jo Jo doesn't go on TV like that.....

This is butch.

Close enough

No one said Jodie Foster was femme, R233, but she doesn't dress like a bull dyke either and Amber Heard is a full on dyke. If you think she's attracted to men too then you're a fool. Oh, and no one owns language or what adjectives people are allowed to use, especially on an anon board, you obnoxious cunt.

I'm the OP and a gay guy and I'm glad I started this thread because lesbians always seem so underrepresented at DL and I partly understand why - they bring out the creepy misogynist gay guys like R249.

I'm not a gay guy, R250, nor am I creepy.

But you are a misogynist (no one else calls women "cunts") and thus you're creepy by definition.

R249 Amber Heard is not "a dyke" you moron. It's called bisexuality.

Now now, R253, we all know that there is no such thing as bisexuals.

R238, there's no butch or femme in my relationship because we're both feminine women. But we're invisible. The only people who know we're gay are our friends and family. To the outside world we look like two friends.

Sure, Jan.

R254 There are way more bi than gay people.

I know that, but everyone around here says they are just lying gays.

All the lesbian weddings I've been to, and I've been to a few, had them both in dresses because they were both femme, or both in tuxes/suits because they both weren't. Anyway, love is love and happy pride, kids.

R259 my wife and I both wore dresses, as did our lesbian couple friends. The butch/femme dynamic is wayyy overemphasized in our culture and femme/femme and butch/butch pairings are ignored most of the time. As a more femme-y looking lesbian, I’m invisible to most and people assume I’m straight—same with my wife. Femmes always fly under the radar so people don’t see femme-femme pairings even though many exist unless I hold my wife’s hand in public.

I understand gay men's fascination with this topic - a butch woman wants male privilege and she's not a REAL MAN like me!

R255, you are so not alone .

R261 You are wrong. Butch woman doesn't get male privilege, they are much more frowned upon and discriminated against than a feminine lesbian. It is not gay men that don't approve of them, but straight people, who don't like effeminate men niether.

R263, this is not about reality.

Most people don't like butches R263. Even a lesbian site like LChat is mostly anti-butch.

Butches stereotypically are not pleasant people. Kinda caustic and seem to hate being a woman .

I know at least one perfectly nice and polite butch lady. They are out there. Maybe your approach is the problem.

Two actually, now that I think about it.

[Warning: Very OT, but since there are women here, I pose the question: Why do you think the female human clitoris has 8000(!) nerve endings? I mean in a evolutionary analysis?]

Because heterosexual women have more risk from sex than heterosexual men do, it makes sense that heterosexual women who have a higher likelihood of benefit would get knocked up more, thus blessing all women with more nerve endings.

That’s my completely off the cuff guess.

Yes, anatomically speaking, females are more sensitive to pain than males and are more sensitive to touch due to more nerve endings in general. However, it just seems so odd that this part is so very sensitive. I mean, why?

Tu give us pleasure R271?

What part are you talking about, R271?

Their overall bodies.

No, R274:

{quote]However, it just seems so odd that this part is so very sensitive.

She wasn't "butch" "BUTCH"

Many lesbians are just straight women who failed to get on with good men, so they get off on having their "hersband" look like an undeveloped hairless man.

Gay men, in contrast, are more likely to be true homosexuals, so most would hate having a boyfriend that looks like a woman. That's why even gay men who engage in part-time dress play, like drag queens, have trouble finding a boyfriend.

R277, is a woman hater and liar

R278 Yes, I'm a woman, a hater (of bad things), and a liar (when my life depends on it, or when a beggar wants something and I don't have much pocket money).

I don't think you're a hater, R279/R277. You're just delusional and in need of medication.

There certainly are political lesbians, women who are sexually straight, but have emotional and psychological issues with men and they seek refuge in relationship with woman, cause they need emotional connection and it is easier than going through life alone. But I believe that there are women who genuinely like female body.

Men are more animalistic and think with their dick so they tend to go after person they are genuinely attracted to, but lately I realized that political gays exist to. And it is not those who are with fem guys, because when fem guy takes off his clothes and stops affecting and twisting wrist he is just like any other men. But the guys who seek "guy" with the pussy and identify as gay are certainly political gays, who have issues with women. So, when a bio woman is presenting as male and doesn't scare them with girly style they will drool over pussy like dogs in heat.

It's not because a guy is wearing a suit that he's masculine. I've met plenty of masculine appearing gay men who turned into total girls once they opened their mouths. Just like there are butch-looking women who are feminine inside. Check out RuPaul and his husband George. Are you saying R277 that big burly George has problems with women and that's why he married the femmy RuPaul?

I can't post the link, since it's from a banned site (The Independent UK), but google the headline if you want to read the story: "Educated and attractive women 'more likely to say they are 100% heterosexual', claims study".

So yes, some lesbians are just failed straight women.

R283 Well, there certainly is a lot of anti gay junk science.

I could believe that lesbians are less attractive, but less educated? Even though there are lots of working class lesbians, isn't there this so called lesbian academia. And when you think of very few great female authors and intellectuals in the past, isn't the majority lesbian or lesbian adjacent or bisexual, starting from the first known poetess Sappho. Then Virginia Woolf, Marguerite Yourcenar, Patricia Highsmith, Simone de Bouvoir, Frida Kahlo, they were all familiar with pussy.

R284 A study is not antigay just because the results hurt your ego. The study was peer-reviewed and published in a mainstream journal. And more studies since then gave found a negative correlation between lesbianism and academic achievement, like the one below. Maybe in the past there was a positive relationship, when education was a male endeavor, but education nowadays is highly feminized.

Real men have better things to do than listening to blabbing in colleges R285

R273. Here’s what I was trying to explain. It gets a bit technical, but you'll get it.

R277 and yet gay men are more feminine than straight men and do things like drag. You'd think men who are only attracted to other men and socialize mainly with other men would be more masculine, yet it's the opposite.

Lesbians are not the female version of gay men. For some reason, they tend to love strict gender rolls. A butch dyke in the lesbian world is looked at by many as a prize, a good catch. In contrast, a very fem guy in the gay world is usually looked down upon as a negative, he's a queen, he's nelly. Gay guys love masculity and generally the more masculine, the more attractive they are considered. Lesbians don't seem to be attracted to femininity like that. There's still some weird male ideation of some sort going on.

Of course there are exceptions, there's always some gay guy who says he loves fems guys, but that's like 1% of the norm.

Women are more complex and attracted to all kinds of personalities and looks, men are much more rigid and inflexible. Regardless, gay men settle for feminine men (if they go for long term relationships) and so most gay couples are two feminine men.

[quote] Gay guys love masculity and generally the more masculine, the more attractive they are considered

R289 but they don't ACT masculine. For all the talk of loving masculinity, most gay men do some female ideation. The result is exactly the same.

Butch lesbians have more money, in general, than femmes. That's why they attract more women. It's not that they idealize males. I personally find hard butch lesbians gross.

[quote]Women are more complex and attracted to all kinds of personalities and looks, men are much more rigid and inflexible.

This whole thing that men have a rigid sexuality is so 2007. If that was so, why do men hook up with trans people more than women do? Why do men date more outside their race? Why has bisexuality been a male phenomenon for 99% of human history?

And it's also doubtful that women are attracted to all kinds of people. Ask any straight man under 5'6 tall if this is true. Women have evolved to like men who are strong-looking and supposedly able to protect them from outside threats, in other words, tall, muscular men. This greatly limits the horizon of possibilities for female sexuality.

Butch dykes know this from experience and so they try to mimic the male appearance to the best of their abilities. On the other hand, many of these characteristics are of no interest to men. Men, gay or straight, generally don't give a damn about their partner's height, for example.

Now, it's true that women become very open-minded about looks when they know you have money. Studies show that the richer you are said to be, the more women find you attractive. But personally, I don't think that makes them look complex; it makes them, on the contrary, seem a little vulgar, to be honest.

Another dig on lesbians. Nice try.

Femmes are the most sought out

R283 "lesbians are just failed straight women" Yes, all those lesbian models just couldn't find a man. Some of the prettiest women I've saw are lesbians. You are so full of shit.

R289 "A butch dyke in the lesbian world is looked at by many as a prize, a good catch" That couldn't be further from the truth. The more femme the lesbian is, she's considered the bigger prize. Femmes are most popular among other femmes, tumboys and butches

[quote] but they don't ACT masculine.

Gay men not "acting masculine" ? Plenty of gay men "act masculine" you just don't notice them because they fit in to your gender stereotypes of how men are supposed to act. You only notice the flamboyant queens. I am surprise women think this way.

[quote] For all the talk of loving masculinity, most gay men do some female ideation. The result is exactly the same.

Gay men do not have female ideation. They dont want to be woman. They just think it's funny how some woman behave, like watching a car wreck, it's hard not to turn away. But they dont wish they were more fem, or put fem guys on a pedestal as a desirable trait. So it's NOT the same because lesbians do put butch male appearing types on higher status level. They are not laughing at masculinity, they worship it in some kind of subconscious way.

It’s a wonderful thing for humanity that we aren’t all attracted to and competing for the same type of person.

Cynthia Nixon’s wife is for sure a very bitchy butch and perhaps that’s the only type of woman she is attracted to. The difference between her and a man who is attracted to super femme guys (lady boys, chick with dicks) is that those men identify as straight due to internalized homophobia. (Looking at you Eddie Murphy)

"Gay men do not have female ideation" ahahahaha! No, they never worship women like Barbara Streisand, Judy Garland and hundreds of other female stars. They never dress like them during drag shows. Rue McClanahan of the Golden Girls often said during interviews that she onced asked a gay man why gay guys loved her role of Blanche so much and he replied "Because we all want to be her!" Gay men never ever love anything feminine like hairdressing or fashion. They never lisp, they never bitch, they never call each other queens. They never have female BFFs. Gay men are all big hairy lumberjacks.

R289 = another gay male who thinks he has all the answers about lesbians.

I have never interacted with a stereotypical butch lesbian in my entire life.

r298, you really don't know anything about lesbians. And it's cute how arrogant you are about your perception of women as "funny" and think straight people don't think of gay men as the ultimate court jesters.

In the Lesbo world the older, fatter, and uglier you are........ the more you are in demand!

Total opposite of the Hershey Highway!

r298 you're projecting big time. Gay men are the ones who worship masculinity, frankly more than straight men if you ask me. The irony is gay acceptance has made straight men more relaxed about proving their manhood and gay men more desperate to prove theirs. That's certainly your prerogative, but leave lesbians and any women out of it.

Obviously many people worship masculinity. That's the default mode for most or all of the planet, right?

No R302. When I started dating women in the late 90s, most of the lesbian online dating ads said "no butches". I think it depends on social class. In bars, there were always lots of butches but women looking for women online didn't want butches. I also went to high end lesbian parties where there were no butches or only one lonely butch nobody was talking to. Today, I don't have to worry about these things. My girlfriend looks like a young Madeleine Stowe.

Lucky gal you are ! R306

Yes I am R307. She's a doctor too. Beautiful and smart.

Lesbian here. I look ridiculous in dresses...like a transwoman even though I'm not. I'm overweight and tall 5'8 with a size 12 shoe. Maybe if I were thinner (I have been losing weight...31 lbs down) I might be able to wear a dress and not seem so masculine. But there are a lot of very pretty, women's suits that are out there. One doesn't have to wear a man's tux or suit. I rented a tux two times in my life and I looked weird in that, too. High heels? Nope, can't walk in them and why would any woman want to wear them? They hurt like a motherfucker.

This is why I can't take transwomen seriously. That they embrace all these accoutrements that most women despise is a big sign to me that they know nothing of what it means to be a woman. Even my femme friends HATE wearing high heels and dresses most of the time.

Not sure what I would wear if I ever got married, but it would not be a dress or a tux. It would likely be a nice pants suit ala Scully on Xfiles.

Fat women don't look good in suits either because they usually have big boobs.

R298 you're kind of stupid aren't you? You don't see anything hypocritical with speaking derogatorily about lesbians but bristle (like a queen) when it's pointed out how feminine gay men are. Both are stereotypes, both are true to an extent, but for some reason, you can't take that truth....don't worry though, the world sees you as you are --an effeminate man.

R300 the delusion is strong with him. It's pointless to try to get him to admit it.

R289 Do they tend to also like their gender rolls with butter? Butter and jam?

lesbians scissor each other.

[quote]Gay men do not have female ideation" ahahahaha! No, they never worship women like Barbara Streisand,

You apparently do not understand the definition of iideation vs celebration. Gay men do not want their male partners looking like Barbra Streisand or any of the Golden Girls.

[quote]I have never interacted with a stereotypical butch lesbian in my entire life.

Do you live in a closet? Have you ever been to a gay pride event? You definitely don't live in a city. I don't even like hanging out with butch lesbians and they seem to be everywhere. Some are more masculine than straight men.

There’s almost nothing more frustrating than gay men “teaching” lesbians about their lesbian identity, and worse, straight up saying lesbians (women attracted to women) don’t even exist. It’s so ridiculous and not rooted in reality.

Butch and femme and more androgynous lesbians all exist. The butches are usually subjected to more risk of violence because they’re easy to spot as gay, however. There are many femmes who are largely invisible to some.

Women who are attracted to men earlier on life but then are attracted to women and in female relationships later are bisexual. Not lesbians. The key is attraction. If they were never attracted to men but in straight relationships, they are closeted gay.

There’s almost nothing more frustrating than a lesbian “teaching” gay men about their gay identity, and worse, straight up saying gay men (men attracted to men) don’t even exist. It’s so ridiculous and not rooted in reality.

See R291. " but they don't ACT masculine."

R318 Hence why I don’t pretend to know what it’s like to be a gay man. I don’t know who said that.

R318 the counterpoint of gay men acting and sounding like women was in regards to the imbecile who pretended that lesbians aren't feminine yet gay men aren't either because they love men. If they loved men so much they would act and sound masculine. If the argument is that masculine gay men are invisible then the obvious counterpoint is invisible feminine lesbians.

You want to stereotype and insult women but it hurts your ego to pretend gay men aren't easy to stereotype and insult as well. And frankly, you live in opposite land in regards to that.

[quote] If they loved men so much they would act and sound masculine.

More lesbians telling gay men how to act. Typical. Oh but dont call them out for their misandry.

R321 you're such a hypocritical little asshole. It's okay for an entire thread to insult lesbians but don't lesbians dare insult men huh? Fuck off, cunt.

R321 that was ONE person. Meanwhile we’ve had many weigh in about lesbians who aren’t actually lesbians.

Guess you didn’t read r319.

R316, most gay people - men and women - do not attend gay pride events. Or sit on bar stools.

Misogynists complaining about "misandry," R321, are hilarious. Cry more.

Most men complaining about misandry are misogynists and most women complaining about misogyny are misandrists. Two sides of the same coin.

I disagree with this premise. Actually, most lesbians do not dress butch. It is always jarring to me when I see the short haired, no make up, no jewelry butch women stroll into a venue with a masculine swagger. It is much more common to see a gay man flit in essentially wearing a sign saying "I'm gay, look at me!"

And Cynthia Nixon is a bad example. She is a rich celebrity who is also a very outspoken gay activist. Most normal people are not injecting politics into their wedding. Whether they be gay or lesbian, most will have a very dignified ceremony and not feel the need to "drag" it up. Most (especially if they are young) don't have the resources for a big splashy gay wedding. Even if their parents have not totally disowned them, most families will not invest $30K for a gay or lesbian wedding, in the same way they would for a straight wedding. That would be very unusual.

Penis envy.

R328 see R73. It may help you.

tl;dr

Sure R328 and according to Freud, you're desperate to have sex with your mother (if you're a man) or your father (if you're a woman). Interesting man he was.

Oversimplification. Not everything old is all bad (just in commercials).

I met a pretty lesbian in her 30's maybe at a party just before Covid. It was a gay social event, she was friendly so we go to talking. The only thing that was odd about the conversation is that she apologized for liking to wear jewelry. And she was not all bligned out, a simple gold necklace with strands the size of a fishing line, some very tiny earrings on a black outfit. No one questioned how she looked, just strange she felt so out of sync with the stereotype or maybe lesbian peer pressure that she felt compelled to say that without even asking.

R333, my first girlfriend was feminine during our first year together, then she started hanging out with a lesbian activist group and came home one day with a butch haircut and baggy pants. Brainwashing cult the lesbian world is. That's why I always stayed away from it. I've always wondered about lesbianism during the Greta Garbo days. It seemed far less political and more about a celebration of glamour and femininity. The worship of masculinity in the lesbian world seems to come from second wave feminism.

The gay world could use some political energy. And it has its own issues with worshipping masculinity.

[quote]The worship of masculinity in the lesbian world seems to come from second wave feminism.

The worship of masculinity in the lesbian world comes from lack of money and lack of sophistication.

R334 "That's why I always stayed away from it. I've always wondered about lesbianism during the Greta Garbo days. It seemed far less political and more about a celebration of glamour and femininity."

Yeah, cause Greta Garbo was so feminine and glamorous.

"The worship of masculinity in the lesbian world seems to come from second wave feminism"

Yes, that's why Greta Garbo never wore anything masculine, like male pants or suits.

I’m Seeing a lot more femme gay women everywhere . They are feeling more comfortable to come out .

Bump

[quote]The worship of masculinity in the lesbian world comes from lack of money and lack of sophistication.

Most of the lesbians I know are doing far better financially than most of the gay men I know. Gay men tend to spend it on beautiful things, lesbians tend to hoard it for utilitarian things.

It's about dominance and submissiveness. Just like a traditional hetero relationship.

But you don't usually see two gay men getting married with one in a dress, and there's plenty of dominance and submissiveness going on.

Women (straight and lesbian) rely heavily upon clothing to tell the world who they are. There are lots of masculine straight women. Some people call them "tomboys." If a woman does not say "I am a lesbian" it is hard to tell that she is a lesbian other than by her clothing. Many women want you to know (as do many men), but they often don't want to have to say it.

Other than clothing, a man has hundreds of ways to tell you he is gay. For example:

His hairstyle (we've all seen the guys with women's hair cuts).

His Jewelry (Is it gaudy or overly feminine?).

The Colors he chooses for clothing, cars, and everything else (Bright colors suggest Gay, Gay, Gay! Who can forget Aaron Schock's teal belt?)

The way that he speaks (the tone of his voice, does he lisp etc., does he have "gay voice?")

The terms he uses (particularly with other men: "guuuurrrrl" "honey" "girlfriend" etc.)

His conversation (Does he talk about Wendy Williams or Real Housewives of anything?)

His carriage and demeanor (Does he switch, throw his hands when he speaks, vogue? This is probably the single biggest tell for a gay man.)

His facial expressions (Does he have over exaggerated expressions? Does he have "gay face?" This is probably the second biggest tell for a gay man).

His smile (Does he need show his bottom teeth when he smiles? [Gay, Gay, Gay!]

His huge reaction to an attractive man (facial and "physical" reaction - is he getting a boner).

These are all ways that men consciously (and sometimes unconsciously) tell the world they are gay.

It just doesn't work the same way with women. Female affection towards each other is a part of our culture. Unless they are literally groping and tonguing each other down, it is hard to know if they are two lesbians. They do have to rely more on their clothing choices. Women are definitely making a conscious decision when they dress ultra butch and they are doing it because they want the world to know they are "the man."

God, so tired of "woman and man" role playing in homosexual world. Would even prefer a non binary.

Tired of woman and man roles period, but the trans thing (and their incredibly strong reliance on man/woman roles, to the point of self-mutilation) has fucked that conversation up for at least the next 50 years.

Apparently androgyny is the worst thing on the planet.

[quote]It just doesn't work the same way with women.

Are you high? Or just blind?

Her hairstyle (we've all seen the lesbians with the sides buzzed like men in the military, straight woman don't do that.). Google the Lesbian Cut, it's a thing.

Her Jewelry (is none, most straight woman love to put on Jewelry, it's not a chore).

The Colors she chooses for clothing, cars, and everything else (Plaid lumberjack shirts AKA Lesbian lingerie)

The way that she speaks (the tone of his voice, rough blunt, burps and belches in public like a man)

Her conversation (Does she talk about women's studies, Ellen, Melissa Etheridge, k.d. Lang)

Her carriage and demeanor (Does she swagger like a "dude" stop her feet instead of lifting them, sit with her legs open in blue jeans like a guy)

The car she drives, or should I say motorcycle? Pickup truck?

Her facial expressions (Does she smile with her teeth clenched? Like she really hates you but trying to be "lady like"? ).

Her weekend projects which usually involve construction, a trip to Home Depot?

Does she shun makeup? See it as a source of pandering to males?

R337, yeah Greta looked just like Lea DeLaria and K.D. Lang lol. Yes she wore pants but she was still very attractive.

political lesbian rad fems exclaim that the butch/femme are the result of lesbians being corrupted by the gaytriarchy and forcing erasure upon them through social transitioning to a masculine ideal.

R347

I realize some of you lesbians want to have everything the same as men, but you are not men. There are differences, most notably, we got a swinging dick and balls... where's yours? HAHAHAHA

I'm not going through your list because that would be pointless. All of the things you discussed relate to a specific kind of lesbian... BUTCH! If you read my post (or have any knowledge of lesbian culture) you will realize that not all lesbians are butch, in fact MOST are not. Lesbians very easily blend in to society. They have to make a statement with clothing to be seen.

That was my whole point. Most Gay men (generally speaking) do not BLEND as easily because, if you are paying attention, too much gives them away.

Yeah, we get it, misogyny LOL.

Why did Cyn marry a child?

r353

[quote] There are differences, most notably, we got a swinging dick and balls... where's yours? HAHAHAHA

Yes, I had heard that there was wit on this board.

because there's usually tomboy&feminine pairing in lesbian community while conventional gays are "masc4masc".

Women can get away with wearing a suit type outfit.

Men in dresses tend to either be drag or trans.

Because male behavior is seen as a positive good, R359, and female clothing and manners is not.

R347, you're taking that post far too literally. The point is that women can get away with far more deviance from gender roles. No surprise there. Also, most people don't really care about lesbians. We only pay attention because we're gay. Straight people don't give a shit.

Straight people don't give a shit? Sure, Jan.

Lesbians rock! This thread proves it.

Women are treated worse in this country, but an exception sometimes is the way women can transgress gender norms with masculine clothing TO AN EXTENT. Men are not allowed to transgress gender norms as much and are policed by other men (and some women) for it. A little boy in pink or purple or heaven forbid a tunic or dress or skirt would do more than raise some eyebrows, while a girl can wear some traditionally masculine clothing. That said, VERY overtly butch women are also easy targets for violence because they’re quickly read as gay by homophobic men, so they tend to face more ridicule or violence by homophobes.

Also, more masculine dressing women aren’t “the man” in the relationship. This isn’t the 1950s. Few lesbian couples fall into that true dynamic in terms of roles. Lesbian relationships are far more egalitarian in roles and duties than straight ones, and research backs this up.

R350 confirms this is really about men who resent that some lesbians want to TAKE male privilege. Gay males resent that some lesbians want to take their masculinity because there is so little of it.

Why do some lesbians want to dress like men? Men are the problem, at least the ones who were trained to be pigs.

R360 female clothing and manners is seen as positive for women, but not for men. Society dreads feminized men.

Male behavior is not seen as a positive good in women I have heard that butch lesbians face much more discrimination than femme ones. But it is much more tolerated than feminine behavior in men.

[quote]If a woman does not say "I am a lesbian" it is hard to tell that she is a lesbian other than by her clothing..

I think this is true, but I would say clothing plus hair, especially when combined with a boyish figure. I think a lot of people would guess right away that Rachel Maddow is lesbian but I don't think the clothes alone would do it. (And I think a lot of conservative straight people would never figure it out.)

I'm in Oregon where one of the women running for governor, Tina Kotek, is a lesbian (and very likely to get elected), and she's just like Rachel - lots of boxy suits (and t-shirts and jeans when she's not working) and very short hair. And both of them are partnered with women who aren't immediately recognizable as lesbians at all.

Here in Canada many straight women look masculine because they don't wear makeup or dye their hair. Half of my teachers in elementary school and high school were butch women but they were all married to men and had children. If Cynthia Nixon stopped wearing makeup, didn't dye her hair, didn't wear jewelry and went all natural, she'd look a lot more like her husbutchwife Christine.

[quote]That was my whole point. Most Gay men (generally speaking) do not BLEND as easily because, if you are paying attention, too much gives them away.

Clueless lesbian = anecdotal opinion.

Most gay men BLEND in probably more than woman because the pressure as a young man to do so is much stronger (his life may literally depend on it). You only notice the ones who stand out just like butch lesbians. It's the same thing. In fact, woman have it a bit easier growing up being a "tom boy" or experimenting sexually than young men. A young man who sleeps with another man just once is instantly labeled as gay. Or forever Bi or closeted. Conversely, woman can do the same thing and it's just looked at as experimenting. She can go off to get married to a man, claim she is straight and no one would challenge that.

I agree with you, R370, but please note that the plural is spelled "women," not woman.

Yes, I know R371, WOMEN, just some stupid type I keep doing.

TL,DR. ***I know I’ll be flamed for this.***

It all boils down to the fact that an XX female can always bear children, regardless of how she dresses or behaves. An XY male can never have offspring without a female being involved. Outside of female reproductive o failure, a woman can easily retrieve sperm to become pregnant.

It’s that simple. It is an immutable fact of science. It is indeed cold and harsh.

The most obvious reason is that a man cannot really get away with wearing an actual wedding dress. They tend to wear variations of male-typical outfits for a wedding. Whereas women can get away with much more variation.

Men can get away with a lot. Maybe it's proper to say that most men are too timid to wear the dress.

Why would a gay man wear a dress? This isn't a straight wedding it's a gay wedding. It's lesbians who do tux/dress who are odd.

Well lookie here...

Skyler is kind of hot

Wedding dresses for gay weddings aren’t completely unheard of…though this article is from 9 years ago and I don’t think the trend caught on much…

Or maybe it did?

Men in dresses look ridiculous. Women only look good in tuxes if they are very beautiful.

I would NEVER marry that R377

[quote]Women only look good in tuxes if they are very beautiful.

And there's the rub, most woman in tuxes don't look like Portia de Rossi, they look like Rosie O'Donnell.

according to political lesbians and radical feminists, women took up butch/femme roles in the 70s, having never existed before and all this was because of gay men that are literally worse than patriarchy.. they also forced lesbians to enjoy penetration with digits, tonues or toys... and robbed them of their intellectual capacity by makinng them view other females with the male gaze, physical lust when they should be free of the vices of males and masculinity, heteronormative patriarchy, such as sexual attraction... and desire. blame the gay liberation aka tgay civil rights.

stonewall wouldn't have happened without storme, as corrupted by the mens as she wants, she who was without sin threw the first stone whi while the little homosexual boys were busy performing tricks. everything in gay creation is the result of the asexual agender-expression political lesbians whose fruits like the tree of knowledge was stolen by the sm capitalistic gaytriarchy

[Quote]women took up butch/femme roles in the 70s, having never existed before and all this was because of gay men that are literally worse than patriarchy.

R383 This makes sense. Many are Republicans, and racist and anti-woman. Gay men are damaged and often display it in very destructive and hypocritical ways.

Modern new couple roles for the spectrum of lesbianism. These women are out front ahead of men, including gays, for enlightenment.

I hope you're joking R383

I hope you're joking R385