Pop vs Opera singers

[quote]Opera singers like Luciano Pavarotti, Maria Callas or Placido Domingo are amazing but it doesn’t mean they sing better like the top notch pop singers Whitney, Celine or Barbra. Just different styles in singing, deliveries, and techniques.

Since you answered your own question so perfectly and concisely, why did you even bother to ask it? Do you just enjoy having written conversations with yourself?

There was a British reality show called From Pop Star To Opera Star where pop stars would learn to sing opera.

Marcella Detroit from Shakespear's Sister didn't win but she did impress. Considering they were also singing in a foreign language the contestants did very well.

Not that Charlotte Church ever sang opera professionally but her attempt at a pop career was quite unremarkable. She had a very nasal tone when singing a standard pop song.

Opera singers are better vocalists. Period.

Opera is fine art.

Pop music is not.

Charlotte Church isn't going to start singing like Rhianna. Or be some pop superstar, but the voice is trained to sing non opera.

Bocelli sings " Maria."

Houchen sings " Maria"

I like Houchen much better - pop and West End theater singer.

Opera singers can also sing pop better than pop singers can sing opera. Not that opera singers are all that convincing in their pop turns, but it’s easier to go from non-miked to miked than the other way around.

Bocelli Sings like shit, R5

I dare any opera singers who can sing I Will Aways Love You better Whitney

R8 ff. Are you usually full of sh!t like this? Opera singers all had the same technique and styles. Pop singers offer variety of styles, techniques and the uses of voice.

R2 POPSTAR TO OPERASTAR was such a fun premise, and the final show turned out quite entertaining. Meat Loaf was a judge for a few episodes, which I thought was cool—he’s kind of the best midpoint between pop & opera.

I remember thinking how cute Danny Jones of the popband McFly was as a contestant. He didn’t do so well, but made a brilliant effort.

Nicole’s attempt at singing opera. Not bad if you ask me

I don't get classical music in general. Sure it's technically on a very high level, but it lacks feeling, it's a lot of over the top singing that really gets on your nerve after a while. I think there is more musical creativity in popular music. No musical genre created more sophisticated song compositions and melodies like popular music. In classical music it's mostly variations around a theme, rather than melodically sophisticated compositions.

Also, if you ask opera singers or musicians what kind of pop music they like they often mention the most trite and tacky stuff.

[quote] Opera singers can also sing pop better than pop singers can sing opera

Bullshit! I'd like to hear Pavarotti or Callas try to sing this gem.

People who rely on electric devices pressed to their lips are NOT singers.

They are fake singers.

R16 are you usually full of shit like this? I can’t stand these idiotic and ignorant people like these

r17 is having a moment, and she would like you all to step back please and give her some room.

R17 is stating their (electronically-amplified) boundaries.

It's like comparing apples and oranges. One isn't better than the other, but they are completely different styles of singing. Opera singers train to sing so that their voice can be heard over a full orchestra without the use of amplification. There are some singers who can do both, but not many famous singers come to mind. One who comes to mind is Eileen Farrell. Of course, she started on the radio in the 40s, so the style of popular singing was different, but she sang and recorded a lot of pop and jazz in addition to opera.

Of current singers, there's this video of Cristina Ramos. She has a legit sound, but it doesn't look as though she's sung a lot of opera.

Proper singers enlarge and contort their mouth to ensure maximum articulation and volume can reach from their diaphragm to the audience.

Pop singers just stand there and pout with their hoochie-koochie lips while the sound engineers and mixers and the subtle microphone and back-up microphones do ALL the work.

The majority of pop singers today use autotune and fixes in the studio to get their vocal product done. Opera trained singers can sing live better. Whether you like the style of opera or pop better is not relevant. Who can sing live is the test of who is a better singer?

I enjoy both

Some opera singers can do both, yes it’s not really a pop song but his voice would suit perfectly to a pop tune

Sarah Brightman. Best of both. And her live concerts? SPECTACLES.

Bravo.

Sarah Brightman. The best of both. And her live performances? SPECTACLES.

It takes a black girl to do both well.

r13 your first line says it all.

Pop music is mostly simplistic melodies. Classical music including opera has subtle shadings, and can project all sorts of emotions. The techniques required for opera and other classical music far outshine anything pop ever had.

[quote] I don't get classical music in general. Sure it's technically on a very high level, but it lacks feeling

I mostly listen to opera (and musical theater) and shocks me to hear someone say that classical (opera) lacks feeling. It’s ALL feeling. The lyrics/librettos themselves are often trite and pedestrian, but this is compensated for by the tremendous emotion on display by both the composers and the performers.

If all you know of Opera are the greatest hits (a few arias from Carmen, La Bohème, etc), then that’s like saying there isn’t anything more to the soulless pop music of Rhianna. There’s depth to any genre, but I’m willing to bet the best opera, pop, country, rap, rock, r&b is not what you’re hearing on the radio.

Even with some of these example of operatic singing in this thread- Andrea Bocelli is a hack! Opera lovers turn their noses up at him. I don’t consider him any more of an opera singer than Celine Dion. He sings pop-opera on the level of a Josh Groban or Charlotte Church.

Listen to Beverly Sills in the voice lesson scene from Fille du regiment. I can’t think of a single pop singer who could come close to handling the complexity of the runs, while also mining the humor and ultimate triumph in the piece.

West Side Story - One hand, one heart (Te Kanawa/Carreras)

Opera singers are objectively better technically. There is no argument about this.

Any opera singer could sing ANY song attempted by a pop singer. Most pop singers have the range of a fifth. There is not a single pop singer who could sing on the Metropolitan Opera stage WITHOUT a microphone and sing La traviata, for example. They literally COULD NOT do it. Physically, Dua Lipa would be incapable of making the actual sound that is required to carry over an eighty piece orchestra without amplification into a 4000 seat hall.

It’s pointless to argue about this, it’s an incredibly stupid thread.

I’m puzzled whether r30 is attempting to make the case for or against opera singers. That recording is an embarrassments to classical singing , demonstrating that untrained singers like Carol Lawrence and Larry Kerr brought Bernstein’s music to life .

Training for classical singing puts purity of tone above all else. Human emotions don’t function that way, which is why opera singers are frequently described as either maudlin or soulless.

R32 knows less about music than the references suggest. No pop singer has range of less than a fifth - that’s absurd. And volume is hardly a measure of musicianship. If you are really looking for good classical singing, look to lieder and concert singers rather than the park and bark opera singers.

“Better” is relative to what you prefer in music. It’s pointless to argue about this for that reason.

Freddie Mercury could have very well become an Opera singer if he wanted to. I truly believe that.

There is a direct correlation between properly trained Gospel singers and Opera singers. They both learn how to project and carry their voices either delicately or to the rafters without harming their voices. Aretha Franklin was already mentioned upthread. Karen Clark Sheard of The Clark Sisters is a good example as well, her soprano range would work wonderfully for "The Queen of the Night" and she can actually hit the gist of the notes for "Glitter and be Gay" but in Gospel and I'm dead serious.

Freddie Mercury did what I'm linking to when he was already ill so imagine what he could have done before. It's something else.

R33 The composer and conductor himself loved that performance. Enough said.

Aretha Frankin, which is a great example, was fluke shit singing Nessun Dorma. Yes, she sang it just as anyone with singing ability could also sing it, but it wasn't great at all. The spirit of Giacomo Puccini was rolling his eyes incessantly.

The well trained opera singers ie Pavarotti, Callas, Price et al are the best singers in the world hands down. Pavarotti was the greatest who ever lived. That will be all.

[quote] Aretha Frankin, which is a great example, was fluke shit singing Nessun Dorma.

Actually, Aretha was a last minute replacement. Whoever was supposed to sing it got sick.

But as pointed out above, opera is about emotion and Aretha brought the emotion. You may not like her performance, but she ticked all the necessary boxes for singing opera.

Most pop voices couldn't be heard past the third row of an opera house without amplification. Well trained opera singers don't need a mic.

I was listening to opera singer Nadine Sierra sing “Glitter and Be Gay,” and it made me wonder why no classical singer has ever been as good in this mock-operatic piece as Barbara Cook. They have the notes but miss the humor, I think.

Aretha was out of her league with opera. Lol

An opera singer has never used autotune. Pop singers-SOP.

Christa Ludwig - I Am Easily Assimilated

Opera singers have smaller ranges than pop singers and have a more "covered" sound because they sing without amplification, and that means that they must keep to their tessituras and cannot make unusual stylistic choices during their performances, which wouldn't be heard within an opera theatre or above an orchestra. However, opera singers could sing pop very effectively with minimal training, as classical music is MUCH harder than pop and mastering it required formidable discipline. Moreover, classical singers cannot get away with avoiding high and low notes, transposing passages down and hiding limitations with choral support, pre-recorded vocals and dance moves. They must deliver everything impeccably well, in full voice and without any sort of support from technology.

Pop singers can afford to make bold choices and develop peculiar stylistic traits because microphones can pick all sorts of sounds; if you whisper, sing in the whistle register or reach a note that is beyond your tessitura in pianissimo or briefly scream it, audiences will hear it and appreciate it because no one expects every noTe you sing to be full, resounding and perfectly clear. This also means that pop singers can get away with deficient technique and straining, because everything can be excused as an "artistic choice" and "personal style". On top of that, dancers, fireworks, acrobats and bright screens are used nowadays in order to further mask how utterly untalented pop singers are. These things would be considered unacceptable in a classical music setting, and would cause singers to be booed offstage.

So no, pop music is not merely "different" but equally as complex, rich and difficult as classical music. Pop music can be very beautiful, but you cannot compare a swarovski crystal to a real diamond. Both shine, but only one of them is truly sublime.

Oh god. There is going to be an entire thread of Marys repeating R43.

R37 - staaaaaaahp it! 😂

R35, Bernstein loved that recording BECAUSE he was the composer and conductor. It’s bombastic and the voices are all wrong, although I’ll admit the orchestra is gorgeous.

Opera singers use much more closed vowels not to dissimilar from one another to keep a consistent tone.

Pop singers use much more wide open vowels sounds with a wide mouth.

It's why opera singers sound terrible singing pop songs as they sound like they use only what seems like 2 vowel sounds for a whole song.

Lol R46, I remember someone posting that same fact like a year or two ago in some other classical music thread. I wonder if it was you 🧐

The ignorance on display among those criticizing opera singers (R10 / R13 / R14 / R33 / R43 / R47 ... maybe you’re all the same person) in favor of pop talent is truly staggering. You'd think they must all be Republicans considering that the exact opposite of everything they are saying is what's actually true. I've never seen such a stunning display of stupidity and arrogance.

R12: Just because the word “Opera” is in the title of the show doesn’t mean that "Phantom of the Opera" is an opera. It is a musical.

R35: You can watch the behind-the-scenes of Bernstein conducting those recording sessions, and he was beyond frustrated with Carreras (who, to be fair, was a last-minute replacement and who barely knew the score). I’m not certain how much Bernstein “loved” that recording. (Although R46 is correct that the orchestra sounds fantastic.)

Mr Fancypants, INDEED! 😃

Lol, I went to the two top conservatories in the country and have had an international singing career R33. You don’t have a single fucking clue what you’re talking about. Lieder singers. lol. Shut the fuck up you musically illiterate cretin.

R49 Bernstein said that piece destroyed him in the video voice over

[quote] Opera singers have smaller ranges than pop singers and have a more "covered" sound because they sing without amplification, and that means that they must keep to their tessituras and cannot make unusual stylistic choices during their performances, which wouldn't be heard within an opera theatre or above an orchestra.

This is quite literally word salad nonsense. Another person who doesn’t have a single clue how classically trained singers work. Your garden variety lyric coloratura singing as Gilda in Rigoberto in a backwater regional theater in Peoria has a much broader and more serviceable range than Mariah Carey, someone touted in the pop industry as having “five octaves” (100% not true, btw.)

Like I said, this is a stupid thread with incredibly dumb responses. I’m out.

Rigoberto = Rigoletto

I feel sorry for you r13. Classical music is emotionally scintillating - it absolutely rocks the soul. It's a shame people are raised to fear classical music and to believe it's something hard to understand.

[quote] Any opera singer could sing ANY song attempted by a pop singer. Most pop singers have the range of a fifth. There is not a single pop singer who could sing on the Metropolitan Opera stage WITHOUT a microphone and sing La traviata, for example. They literally COULD NOT do it.

I can...

"Human emotions don’t function that way, which is why opera singers are frequently described as either maudlin or soulless." - Lol, when and just how frequently are opera singers "described as either maudlin or soulless", r33?

THANK YOU R49. The stunning display of arrogance is so Trumpian, declaring oneself an expert when they have zero real knowledge. It’s just astonishingly embarrassing.

All of these DL singers, trained in classical voice, but who are now stocking shelves at Duane Reade, are letting go of their frustrations and disillusionments here. Le them have their moment of satisfaction.

I love Shirley Bassey. She’s a great pop artist. She would never sing or project enough sound on the Met stage without amplification. Period.

[quote] Opera singers use much more closed vowels not to dissimilar from one another to keep a consistent tone. Pop singers use much more wide open vowels sounds with a wide mouth.

Again, complete and utter nonsense. Just stop. You’re embarrassing yourself.

[R60] she could in her prime. She started her career singing without amplification, that's why she's loud and projects her voice at the expense of nuance and shading.

R61 has set himself as some kind of expert but literally knows next to nothing.

A typical old queen who owns a thousand old records(nothing after1953) and thinks they know the pedagogical art of singing,

You have to laugh.

Sissel is a beautiful opera singer, she was amazing on Warren G's Prince Igor and her version of Abba's Like An Angel Passing Through My Room is lovely. Abba's original version is also lovely and so is Madonna's Ray Of Light era William Orbit produced version.

Can you give us an example of such a skilled pop singer, r63? Or an opera performance you believe backs up your claims?

R9, not many singers period would want to sing that song like a power ballad. Dolly sang it much better than Whitney which proves that artistry is not just about vocal chops.

Dolly didn't sing it better than Whitney, she sang it differently.

The great thing about music is that songs can be interpreted in different ways.

That's a big difference between pop and classical music r67, that pop songs are basically performed by one singer, two or three at most in cover versions. Pop songs are usually associated with one singer. Classical music, including opera, is continuously reinterpreted and can belong to an endless number of performers, aside from its composer.

Dolly writes well-crafted songs, which is why they can be interpreted by more than one performer, but there will still be a limit to how many interpretations we get.

R65 Do us all a favour and go back to your vintage collection and dig out Maria's very special live recording of Rigoletto that she sang in Berlin barn for displaced Jews. Leave the pedagogy to the adults in the room.

R69 uses the word pedagogy too much to be taken seriously.

R69 thinks we didn't notice how he tried to get around stating facts.

I can practically see the spittle spraying from r69's mouth as he hisses at the computer!

I'm surprised there are no voice teachers or students posting here.

Generally pop singers have more voice problems than classical singers--Adele has had surgery on her vocal cords and cancels performances--because many aren't trained to give proper support to their voice. Classical singers are "better" vocalists in the sense that they have more training and are more aware of the importance of proper technique.

But classical singers also have surgery and damage to their chords (and try to keep it a secret) because LOUD singing is hard on the vocal chords no matter how good your technique. But loud is what's popular now, and surgery rates are through the roof for pop and classical singers.

Girls, please keep these bitchy comments coming. My top just canceled, and I have nothing to do for the next couple hours.

Opera? Classical? Which is best? Which poster insulted your top-tier conservatory eduction? Who has better technique? Does being fat help? What about the under-studied impact of sizemeat? So many questions!

R49, where have I criticized opera singers? The only thing I've said that could possibly be interpreted as negative is that they tend not to sing across the entirety of their range, but more often than not limit themselves to sing within their tessitura because they must sing using a special technique in order to be heard without amplification. How is that a criticism of classical singers?

R53, all I have said is that classical singers need to sing without amplification and they cannot produce every single sound in their range above an orchestra that can be audible throughout a full theatre, and they only consider part of their range those notes they can hit with ease, with impeccable tonal quality and at full power. Also, they DO cover their voices and don't sing in the same way as pop singers do, who can include any sound they want into a song because it will be picked up by a microphone.

And yes, I know that Mariah Carey doesn't have a 5 octave range and she cannot hit any notes above A5 without those colourless, disconnected whistles she uses, whereas a soprano leggero can easily go up to E6 and higher sounding powerful and displaying a beautiful, rich tone. I also know that Mariah Carey isn't a contralto because her lower range is breathy and weak - you needn't be so ridiculously condescending and rude.

I have clearly stated that pop singers include in their range anything they can hit as picked by a microphone, even if they cannot hit the notes properly. That would be unacceptable for classical singers who, as I have mentioned time and time again, tend to keep to their tessitura because those are the notes that they produce with a perfect quality.

And the average vocal range for a classical singer is 2 and a half octaves, with quite a few being able to sing across three octaves and only a few, being able to go beyond that. However, I have never claimed that opera singers couldn't hit the same notes as any pop singer if they used a microphone - and in fact, they would be able to do it MUCH better.

Now, is that clear? Thanks.

Opera singers can destroy their voices as much as pop singers if they don't keep up proper technique.

Case in point Bryan Hymel who went from toast of London (Olivier Award) and the Met a few years ago who has been fired from several major productions in recent years as he can no longer hit or hold the notes.

R76 Callas is a classic example. Her repertoire was too hard for her voice.

[quote] Aretha Frankin … was fluke shit

I don't understand what that means, R36.

[quote] Most pop voices couldn't be heard past the third row of an opera house without amplification.

It's a show-business axiom that the ugliest singers have the best voices and the prettiest of pop-singers need the most auto-tuning.

Viz: Aretha Franklin and Enrique Iglesias.

R56 What point are you making?

You claim a pop singer could sing on the Metropolitan Opera stage WITHOUT a microphone yet you show an image of a pop singer WITH a microphone.

[R39] Dawn Upshaw's Glitter and Be Gay nearly equals Cook's, I think.

I wonder if Jeff Buckley had "the instrument" to be a countertenor. His version of Britten's Corpus Christi Carol (though not all in head voice) sounds more crystalline than that of the few opera singers I've heard doing it--that last note!

R81 I think Jeff Buckley had the goods if he chose that route. We'll sadly never know. He fearlessly flung his voice at most anything effortlessly. With "Glitter and be Gay" I like what Kristen Chenoweth did even though it's not technically most precise and Madeline Kahn actually did it rather well also.

Some old opera queens are so easily triggered that they don't read people's posts properly and go off on a wild spray worthy of a Kathleen Battle meltdown. The don't understand resonance, registers, oscillation of pitch frequency, covering, appoggio etc. All they know if they have EVERY recording of Renata Tebaldi and therefore they know EVERYTHNG about opera technique.

[quote] Some old opera queens

R83 Your point would be stronger if you actually name names so we can better understand it.

Define “better vocalist”

It’s all completely subjective

Global scold Greta Thunberg’s mother sings pop and opera.

To me it's apples vs. oranges. I'm a classical musician and have worked with opera singers for decades as pianist. But we're talking about two different art forms with two different aims. Opera is meant to be sung unamplified. Singers are trained to sing on vowel sounds and minimize consonants in order to sustain the sound at the volumes they are required to project. Consequently crystal clear diction is often a casualty. Opera singers must be able to sing soft to loud, (piano to forte in musical terminology), but they are mostly singing in their forte range when accompanied by full orchestra - they drop back to a softer range only when the orchestration thins or if they are singing recitative, which is minimally accompanied. Pop singers are generally singing in their own languages. They are using microphones, so they don't have to use their loud voices unless they are belting. Since even a whisper can be amplified, they can simulate a wider range of emotional qualities, even though their loud is not really "loud" in the sense that it is representing the kind of full body effort that a scream would require. Since they don't have to project a sustained sound to soar over an orchestra, they can emphasize the consonants more, and their diction is often clearer. Granted the words to pop songs are usually pretty silly, (or sometimes non-sensical). but frankly, so are the words to a lot of operas. Technically, pop singers can and do sing unsupported - which only means, they don't have to train to use their breath to support their singing to the same extent that opera singers do. Consequently, many sound "breathy". They can use that for emotional effect if the song is about vulnerability, but it means that they might flag in a song which is meant to portray strength or vitality, because there is not much there there. There is a specialized technique in using microphones well. Most opera singers are not trained in this. Pop singers spend a lot of time on this and they have a close working relationship with their sound persons.

Generally speaking, a pop singer would sound weak and uncompelling in any situation in which he or she didn't have a microphone. An opera singer would sound much more compelling in that circumstance. That's where there are various shaming videos out there, where the sound system cuts out briefly and a singer is humiliated by the abrupt lack of volume and sound quality.

In general, opera singers have an easier time "crossing over" than vice-versa, mostly because they technical chops needed for singing opera take years to develop, and pop singers wouldn't have the time or energy to devote to that. However, sometimes opera singers have trouble letting go of their big sound and the way they glide from vowel to vowel to do a convincing pop sound. Sarah Brightman is an example of someone who was very successful in both styles. Some singers who studied classical style voice include Katy Perry, Lady Gaga, Jason Derulo, Kelly Clarkson, Roberta Flack, Bebe Rexha, Nicole Scherzinger

Opera's finest.

^^ Forgot to add Dionne Warwick to that list of classically -trained singers

I say this as someone who is not a country music fan in the least. Dolly's version of I Will Always Love You is so much better than Whitney's. Whitney goes full-volume Al Jolson blast them out of their seats for a very sweet song.

Here's Diana Ross performing classical pop with a couple of opera singers, and she knocks it out of the ballpark. Over the Rainbow just isn't meant to be sung with an Italian accent.

R13. You do realise that there is classical music that is not opera? It’s also hard to know what to say to the claim that popular music is less sophisticated melodically than pop music. If you view Bach, Haydn, Stravinsky, etc as unsophisticated, there’s probably not much argument anyone can make to change your mind.

Opera is the one genre of classical music that is characterised by some of the same kind of vacuous, personality-driven, show off entertainment as pop music.

However, opera singers will always be much more capable of handling the technical demands of pop music than pop singers will be of singing opera. It’s rare that either category is stylistically appropriate in the other genre, which is why crossover efforts almost always induce cringes. However, at least with an opera singer you don’t have the added embarrassment of a singer who simply has no ability whatsoever to do what he or she is attempting to do, as for example with Aretha Frankilin.

R91. You do realise the two opera singers are Spanish, right?

R93 Maybe that's why they plastered the Italian accent on a little too thick.

[Quote]Singers are trained to sing on vowel sounds and minimize consonants in order to sustain the sound at the volumes they are required to project. Consequently crystal clear diction is often a casualty.

R87 So THAT'S why I don’t understand everything Leontyne is singing in this song. I know she's great, and I adore her, but I thought her pronunciation was lazy. Thanks for educating me about this.

The fact that operas are so frequently supertitled is an acknowledgment that the attempt to combine, music, drama, and literature has failed.

Operatic singing could best be described as controlled screaming. It requires not just ability to make sounds (pleasant or unpleasant) but power enough to get that sound out over an orchestra, often other voices and out into whatever venue. Larger opera houses or theatres require those with more powerful voices to get sound back to "nose bleed" territory.

Pop singers are totally different animal, so it isn't a fair comparison. Opera singers (legitimate) have done popular songs and or those from musicals, but in their own way. You're not going to get say a Wagnerian soprano singing "Gloria".

Better analogy would be legitimate theatre voices versus opera stars.

Back in day nearly all Broadway musicals had one or more legitimate voices (depending upon production). These would be trained sopranos, altos, baritones and bass voices who could maybe do light opera, or maybe certain operatic productions, but on balance lacked power and stamina for a full production.

Late Rebecca Luker was one such legitimate voice. So was Madeline Kahn, Julie Andrews, Peggy Wood, Robert Goulet, Cris Groenendaal, and others.

I wish we had a whole duet with Whitney and Pav

Freddie Mercury had a four octave range voice (give or take). Montserrat Caballé was a powerful soprano (or mezzo when required), but they made recording of Barcelona work.

ha r96, didn't Pauline Kael call opera and film "the bastard arts"?

[quote] It's a show-business axiom that the ugliest singers have the best voices

Montserrat Caballé was one of few opera singers that did popular music that worked out well.

Album Friends for Life was a huge success for Montserrat Caballé, it expanded her already huge following even further.

Listening to "March With Me" you understand why opera and pop singers are just totally different animals. It is often difficult to contain a powerful voice down to levels sung with pop music.

From same album, Bruce Dickinson - Bohemian Rhapsody

Alice Ghostley hits the high notes at 2:20.

Ezio Pinza famously brought operatic style to Broadway in South Pacific. Immensely popular at the time, today it seems a bit overwrought. Maybe if he'd ditched that Italian accent.

R96

Opera performances having super or sub titles has more to do with brining that art to masses than anything else.

People have been attending opera performances for over 100 years without benefit of such titles, but there you had different sort of cultured audience. You also had large enough followings of Italians, Germans, scattered not just all over Europe but North and South America that could understand what was being performed, or at least enough of it to make connection.

French for ages was considered language of culture, breeding and even diplomacy. So many persons as part of their education had some exposure to that language.

Even English language operas are dubbed. The fact that operas were not dubbed in the past is not a indication that the singing was actually conveying the meaning of the drama or the text. The audience had simply familiarised itself with the plot and text beforehand. The opera itself wasn’t accomplishing that.

Sorry —-titled, not dubbed.

Jennifer Rush was a good example of a pop singer who could probably throw down an aria with the right training.

[quote] Jeff Buckley had "the instrument" to be a countertenor

I'm sure the recordings were enhanced. Did he ever sing live?

Well R109, if we take into account that her father is an operatic tenor and voice teacher, I would say that he probably taught her pretty well. She's never sung opera, but she did sing duets with Plácido Domingo and José Carreras in the 80s and 90s.

Thank you very much for your explanation, R87. That was excellent. The only thing that surprises me is that the likes of Katy Perry and Bebe Rexha would have received classical training - Perry is a VERY bad singer who has no breath control, doesn't know how to place her voice properly, has lots of tonal quality problems and is off key constantly. Rexha is only marginally better, sadly.

As for Jason Derulo, Kelly Clarkson and Lady Gaga, I also find your assertion surprising. Gaga didn't properly train her voice until 2014, when she was chosen to do the Julie Andrews tribute and spent 6 months receiving daily vocal lessons in order to be able to tackle the material. If she has received classical training, it has been very late in her carrer. As for Jason Derulo, his voice is surprisingly weak and colourless, and his impostation is rather bad. As for Clarkson, her strangled screams in her upper range show that she didn't learn much when she was receiving vocal lessons - shouldn't high notes be open, clean, relaxed and with full resonance? She's never sung tham like that.

Anyway, this thread is extremely interesting. Thanks for your contributions, everyone! :)

[quote]Pop music is mostly simplistic melodies.

That's rubbish and confirmes my previous statement that opera fans have the most trite taste when asked about what popular music they like.

Irene Dunne was another great actress and singer who had high ambitions for an opera career, only to be told "thank you, but no" by the Met. She ended up like so many others making a career in musical theatre and films.

Keep coming back to artists such as Ms. Dunne because for good amount of recent history songs from musical theatre were popular music.

Then you have Jeanette MacDonald along with Nelson Eddy, Allan Jones and few others she paired with introduced opera to a good amount of then American population.

Many legitimate theatre voices have instruments capable of coping with operetta performances. But full out opera is likely out of the question, at least live full performance. In a recording studio or concert is another matter.

There are actors you wouldn't think could, but can sing approaching legitimate voice level to point of musical theatre or operetta. Whether they should or not in a live performance is another question.

We're all the same and as good as one another. We just are...!

A member of the k-pop group Shinee sometimes sings Nessun Dorma during their concerts

R3 nails it!

Anyone can sing "pop" music. it does not require much training or technique. This even for those who have instruments proven or claimed to cover several octaves. Indeed back in day actors who couldn't sing but were cast in musical theatre productions had numbers written especially for what they could handle, Send In The Clowns is most famous example.

A third or fourth year voice student from Julliard or any other reputable school would blow Mariah Carey out of water far as opera is concerned. However for pop music sounds made by that woman are perfectly acceptable I suppose.

For this and other reasons while many opera singers have done pop music, few do it other way round. Mariah Carey couldn't carry "Un Bel Di" if it was neatly packed in a bag.

For me the greatest were Leontyne Price for opera and Whitney for pop.

I only recently found out that they were cousins

R115 Who is this fascinating man named 'Joey' that Seth is crooning over?

Joey is a stud from musical "Most Happy Fella". Kind of guy who blows into town and gets female population hot and bothered.

K-pop singers go through years of formal vocal training before they debut, unlike American singers. If Americans would actually listen to them, rather than assuming that they are all like Americans and ridiculing them, then they would be better appreciated for their work. From their version of Masked Singer:

More...

The styles of singing are so different and require such different kinds of training that just as it's nearly unprecedented for a rock star to sing opera well, it's nearly impossible for an opera star to sing rock well. They always sound too refined.

"But classical singers also have surgery and damage to their chords (and try to keep it a secret) because LOUD singing is hard on the vocal chords no matter how good your technique. But loud is what's popular now, and surgery rates are through the roof for pop and classical singers."

Which opens up another can of worms labeled "Belting".

As true daughter of Judy Garland, Liza Minelli can (or maybe by now rather could) belt with best of them and suffer no apparent harm to her voice, But then again she grew up in household with a mother who was a master of that technique.

Being as all this may, a person's instrument is what it is, and can only be pushed so far for so long before damage occurs. All sorts of singers have suffered damage (sometimes permanent) from pushing their voices to do things it shouldn't.

I studied voice. but I don't understand what the question is. The whole closed vowels thing is news to me, I don't think you could properly sing opera with closed vowels, it would lock your voice. Opera is much harder to sing, is challenging and precise. It feels more like an art to me. BUT I think my voice sounds much prettier singing "normal" music- probably depends on the voice but I think mine sounds best doing theatre, than pop, then opera. I think opera singers don't sound the same as pop- when they sing pop- because their ear has been trained to prefer the challenging, precise way to sing. But if you asked them to imitate a pop artist they could do it in a second.

"Leave Wagner Alone!"

That was advice Kirsten Flagstad gave young opera singers starting out back in 1950, and it still holds true today.

Ms. Flagstad's advice rings true regardless of fach or singing style; one cannot expect to lift 500lbs just starting out body building, it takes years of steady training and practice.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Birgit Nilsson yet.

R129

Because there's nothing much to say regarding Ms. Nilsson and this thread. The lady was a Wagnerian soprano with big powerful voice who didn't do "pop" or even musical theatre songs IIRC.

Ms. Nilsson's voice was often described as a force of nature, and there isn't much more to say...

Why, r129? Did she sing heavy metal as well as Strauss and Wagner?

As a contrast, Slim Whitman (remember him?) was the George Szell of the Country Music world, and not really anybody liked working with him.

Shirley Bassey has a big strong and powerful instrument, but not operatic by any stretch of imagination.

Or...

Ms. Bassey even treated musical theatre numbers to same pop treatment. It's really all that she knows, which is fine I suppose.

We now turn the page to Mario Lanza, a performer who likely would have a had a much stronger career in legitimate opera if he would have but settled down.

R130 and R131 Actually, she did several hundreds of concerts in Sweden off-season singing traditional Swedish music, the northern European (very rough) equivalent of USA's 'Country and Western'.

Sadly it seemed Mr. Lanza preferred Hollywood over opera...

Mario Lanza singing I'll Walk With God dubbing for Edmund Purdom who appears on screen.

What about death metal singers? Where do they rank? How about yodelers?

R129 - Yes, you are totally correct, and that's the answer to the people arguing towards the top of this thread. I mean, OK, so some pop performer can squawk out three and a half minutes of Nessun Dorma, but can they do four and a half hours of Isolde with three days notice?

Opera singers need to blend their vowels into each other to sustain placement, resonance, amplification and smoothly transition the registers.

Aside from Wagner, most opera sustains a legato line and you cant spread the vowels far and wide like pop singers do. Most pop singers use little vibrato because of the vowel spread, incorrect breathing and also the dynamic range of their material.

Your tenor has his high C's but they will be few and far between because of Opera technique and acceptable 'sound'.

Pop singers can screech all over the place both high and low as there is no real demand for a consistency of tone whereas Opera singers must maintain the even line throughout the whole range.

Sutherland was a prime example of how her diction was almost incomprehensible a lot of the time because she sacrificed that clarity to keep an even consistent tone and some vowels have to be modified significantly up in the range to maintain that even line and avoid spread..

Pat shares a couple more octaves.

So who's better: a classical concert pianist or a top notch jazz pianist? Hmmmm? You mean each requires different skills and passions?

Every other singer in this performance of famous sextet from Lucia di Lammermoor manages good diction. Sutherland stands out as she always does; a big sound at cost of clear diction. Sure she stands out high above others, but try to understand darn word sung.

You have no idea what you’re talking about R75. And you are misusing the word tessitura over and over again. Stop. It’s embarrassing you.

[quote] Ms. Nilsson's voice was often described as a force of nature

Yes, and the videos of her (R130) and Joan (R145) are thrilling!

Obviously, Mariah and Ariana Grande could have become lyric sopranos if they had wanted. They can hit any not that Kathleen Battle could hit in her prime. They could sing any operatic role(at least Ariana could) that they wished to train for.

Mariah has her whistle register. Like or not ?

Mariah has the chest for opera, but little Ari has a tinny whine.

Only Celine and Whitney, and may be Aretha have the technical skills and the sheer power to go head to head with an professionally trained opera singer.

Celine is one of very rare pop singers who is able to sing LIVE on stage (no lip sync) with other top opera vocalists.

The Prayer - her powerful voice

Pavarotti with a boyband!

[quote] You claim a pop singer could sing on the Metropolitan Opera stage WITHOUT a microphone yet you show an image of a pop singer WITH a microphone.

Shirley Bassey is a pop star so she doesn't try to sing without amplification BUT SHE CAN. She sings with a full orchestra that is amplified so she is amplified as well. Her singular vocal talent has been acknowledged by Grace Bumbry and Jessye Norman.

Lol, no, R96, it's to do with the fact that most operas are in the Italian, French and German languages and Anglophone audiences (presumably you're talking about Anglophone countries) aren't good with foreign languages. Do they subtitle Bernstein, wherever you are?

Yes, opera singers are better than the vast majority of Pop singers. Get real, OP.

Opera singers don't use autotune and don't lip-sync. Nuff said.

R13 thinks Pop is "more sophisticated" than Opera! Oh, yes, Dr. Luke is so much "more sophisticated" than Verdi! Doja Cat has it all over Joan Sutherland!

Where do you people come from, the Okeefinokee Swamp?

R155, That video has always been one of my favorites, given I was a major fan of all (saw LP twice, once at the Met just to hear his "Nessun Dorma." His "Ave Maria" is beyond compare. And Ronan Keating had the best voice in Pop during Boyzone's day--- notwithstanding that "NMW" is Stephen's song.)

That said, Pavarotti's voice is superior in richness and depth.

Nevertheless, it seems true that Operatic voices cannot "do" Pop that convincingly, but why would they want to?

Back in the day, I slept on the streets of NYC to see Ricky Martin on "The Today Show." Major, major fan. I still love his songs, his voice, his looks, his persona.

But though Ricky does a more than creditable job here, Pavarotti's voice resonates like no other.

R107, in the eighteen century, people often sat and read the libretto as the opera was being performed. In the nineteenth century and into the 1940s, popular operas were sung in the local language. There are recordings that reflect some implausible combinations: a "Carmen" in German, a "Faust" in Russian, an Italian "Parsifal." Later on, it was thought sacrilegious not to perform a work in its original language and eventually that made subtitles necessary.

That Tiny Tim post was awesome! Thank you!

Classical music by definition is very rigorous in content and structure. Pop will have more leeway and individual performers creativity.

Ahem, r131

R163. I’m very well aware that opera used to be sung in translation and exceptionally continues to be. The English National Opera continues to sing non English operas in English.

It is not just a matter of language. The style of singing makes the text often difficult to understand. If it were merely a language problem, they wouldn’t title the English language operas as well.

R165, it's horrible. An innocent song about first feelings of love is turned into a bellowing, indulgent misinterpretation by a fat old woman.

R196. I specifically said opera. Whether English language operetta Vd musicals are titled I have no idea However, I would think the reduced reliance on melisma would make it less necessary.

My own experience of English language operas is limited to Covent Garden and The Chicago Lyric Opera. So as, you note, my experience is limited to where I’m from. In more prominent venues they may not do this lol. Or they may have only turned the titles on the night I was that I could understand lol.

R157 and R163

And by the way., the English National Opera uses surtiitles despite singing all opera in English.

R169, doesn't that have to do with the fact that English, which is a language that constantly shifts the placement of sounds from the back of the throat to the teeth and back, makes it impossible to understand anything that is being sung in operas, given the way that vowels must be produced? I recall a teacher mentioning this at school, but I am unsure about it.

That could be true. I’m not completely fluent in any language but English so I can’t judge perfectly. Nonetheless, I find opera librettos very difficult to understand in languages besides English as well It’s a result of the style of singing and the fact that the singer is singing in amplified over an orchestra.

[quote] Gaga didn't properly train her voice until 2014, when she was chosen to do the Julie Andrews tribute and spent 6 months receiving daily vocal lessons in order to be able to tackle the material. If she has received classical training, it has been very late in her carrer.

Gaga went to NYU for musical theatre. I doubt she had to train that much to sing the Sound of Music numbers. Marie Osmond, did it too as did Mary Martin--the songs are pretty simple.

Leontyne Price was superb in singing this non-operatic song from "A Chorus Line."

Pump

[quote]Opera singers can also sing pop better than pop singers can sing opera.

Amen, r8!

The difference was painfully clear in the Evita movie adaptation. Madonna's voice was way too thin and weak for the rock/opera songs, pretty underwhelming and shitty compared to Patti Lupone. They should've given the part to a real vocalist.

The best is a blend of pop and opera.

I’m reminded that DL Fave Kelli O’Hara sang Despina at the Met a few years ago and quite well.

This documentary does a good job of showing how professional opera singers adapt to pop music in the studio.

[quote] Obviously, Mariah and Ariana Grande could have become lyric sopranos if they had wanted. They can hit any not that Kathleen Battle could hit in her prime. They could sing any operatic role(at least Ariana could) that they wished to train for.

Mariah and Ariana might be able to hit the notes, but could they sing a role that goes for two hours, unamplified, in a auditorium that seats 4000?

NO

R173, that last note is amazing

Let's state the obvious: once again: Pop singers sing pop better than opera singers and opera singers sing opera better than pop singers.

Thanks, R180. That previous comment was quite ignorant.

Great pop singers can have amazing technique--but it's a technique appropriate for pop.

Opera singers, to sing unamplified in a huge auditorium, MUST have technique to do that and sustain it for hours, while acting.

Well said R182

The main problem with opera singers trying to sing pop is that they use falsetto to sing high notes, whereas a pop singer would just belt it out in chest voice. The high belt of a good pop singer will always be superior to a falsetto. It's why the people like to listen to Barbra and Whitney and not Julie Andrews.

[quote]The main problem with opera singers trying to sing pop is that they use falsetto to sing high notes, whereas a pop singer would just belt it out in chest voice.

"Falsetto" is not the correct term for what you're referring to. Your post is idiotic.

Operatic falsetto, or head voice, sounds so corny today. It's why people don't like opera.

Jason Derulo was operatically trained.

How did he do?

another pop star classically trained.

R188, falsetto and head voice are two different things. Normally falsetto is used by countertenors and therefore is heard only in baroque opera.

[quote]Operatic falsetto, or head voice, sounds so corny today. It's why people don't like opera.

Are you another no-nothing, or the same one who previously wrote something stupid about "falsetto?"

[quote] Are you another no-nothing,

Oh, [italic]dear.[/italic]

[quote]Are you another no-nothing

What an idiotic thing to say.

R160 has never heard of Whitney Houston, Chaka Khan, Aretha Franklin, Ella Fitzgerald, singer songwriters like Smokey Robinson, Stevie Wonder. This is exactly what I said, ask any opera fan which popular music they like and they come up with the most tacky examples.

Falsetto opera. This type of singing by adult males was common during the Elizabethan era.

GOP VS. OPERA SINGERS?

What do Republicans have against Opera?

R157, they hate everything and everyone.

But, seriously, one of the most beloved music genres, heavy metal (well, beloved by many, though not by me), features preternaturally high male voices shrieking away. People don’t object to falsetto if it’s accompanied by thudding bombast.

I guess it's difficult to explain that a male voice singing high notes does not necessarily translate to falsetto across the board.

Early on females were considered little better than whores if they appeared on stage in acting or even singing roles. In Shakespeare's time and even before acting itself was considered realm of men. Female roles were played often by young men or boys dressed as women/girls, or even older male actors.

Far as singing goes young boys would often suffice where alto or soprano sound was required. But young boys grow into men which means a change in voice. Some grown men naturally have good to excellent higher ranges (falsetto) and were used instead of females in opera and other vocal performing arts. Many works by George Frideric Handel among others were originally written for boys or men capable of producing falsetto. Today most are now done by female mezzo-sopranos.

Other solution was the castrati, that is to castrate young boys so they wouldn't go through puberty and thus retain higher voice range.

Castrati were the rage for some time, with most famous being Farinelli.

What made castrati wonderful (if one may use that word) is they had stamina and breathe capability and control of an adult male, but sound of soprano. Thus could tackle roles, songs, arias that would wind an 8 year old boy. Oh and they also would have vocal power needed to produce a big enough sound that would fill a theatre.

To produce sound for film Farinelli" voices of both a legitimate female mezzo-soprano and male falsetto were electronically combined. It was close as anyone was going to get since obviously castrati aren't around.

Late Jeff Loeffelholz was one of a core group of actors/singers who could handle complicated "falsetto" Broadway roles eight shows a week, two matinees.

. Michael O'Haughey was the original "Mary Sunshine" in Broadway production of Chicago.

That final trill, held for what seems an eternity, shows perfect blending of technique with artistry.

Yes, you likely would find many male singers who could hit that note, but to hold it for so long would be another matter.

[quote]Are you another no-nothing

I am deeply embarrassed by my weird error. I really do know the correct phrase is "know-nothing." But my very strange mistake doesn't change the fact that the person here who wrote that opera singers sing their high notes in "falsetto" is, indeed, a know-nothing.

Castrati?

You mean puberty blockers are this generation's gift to opera?

Castration of young boys, or even men for various reasons goes back ages.

Suppose puberty blockers administered early on enough to a young boy would have same effects, but at what cost I shouldn't wonder.

Castrati took off in 1700's due to huge rage for opera seria which placed great weight upon high voices, at perhaps cost of other qualities such as good acting.

Gluck's Orfeo ed Euridice is another famous opera once with hero lead cast by a castrati.

Ariana Grande would be amazing in Madame Butterfly.

Opera singers in fact do NOT use falsetto.

Tenors, for example, use full chest voices to reach all the way up to high C. Some have a “ping”—that’s called squillo.

That dude at R196 is singing in falsetto. Call it contr tenor if you like, but to my ear it's falsetto.

So, who sings better in this one then? 🙄

Eileen Farrell moved well between the worlds of opera and pop.

R210– yes, of opera singers, only countertenors sing in falsetto.

They’re trying to mimic the castrato sound but descriptions of that sound say that the castratos had a fuller high voice

Alessandro Moreschi, was the only castrato to have been recorded...

Singing "Ave Maria"

Sounds sort of spooky if you ask me...

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Alessandro Moreschi vs. Philippe Jaroussky (counter tenor)

Last one, but more (from same LP recording IIRC), are on YT.

Either chemical and or surgical castration does not totally eliminate production of testosterone and androgen in males. Human body has other secondary ways of producing either, but at lower levels than primary glands. This is true for females who undergo surgical and or chemical treatment to remove ovaries and or suppress production of estrogen.

A blood chemical essay can pretty accurately reveal if someone is a biological male or female regardless of appearance. When all there is are bones, they too have a story to tell.

What is falsetto, and what it ain't......

Interestingly, although we have his recording, Alessandro Moreschi was considered rather mediocre

Broadway singers make fools of themselves trying to sing rock; it's horrible. This just goes to prove that, even if you have a great voice, you might not be suited to sing other genres.

That's really not very impressive R222. Way too stiff interpretation, and the lead singer's voice isn't really that great.

R221

Sistine chapel choir actually still had a large number of castrati by early 1900's, of which Moreschi was but one.

"But Moreschi also had some bad singing habits that he picked up from no one knows where. Among the worst of these was an unusual “glot” in the voice where he will briefly sing a bit of a lower note and then suddenly jump up to the same note an octave higher. Vocal experts are still arguing as to whether or not this was a defective mannerism picked up in the late 19th century or an early, 18th-century form of acciaciatura which departed from the normal placement of such a note a half or whole step above or below the principal note to be sung. The other was his propensity for whining, or sobbing, when he sang, but to be honest this was a bad habit of a large number of Italian singers of the late 19th century that did not come to a complete stop until the 1950s. "

Woke Broadway is planning and all-castrati production of " Dreamgirls."

They might be able to hit notes, but show me a "pop singer" with this level of technique and breath control.

R226, Ariana Grande sounds better than that.

Linda Ronstadt did operatic training during the 80s. She did Pirates of Penzance, but her singing was not that good.

R226, people like Ella Fitzgerald, Jackie Wilson, Chaka Khan definitely could match that. As I said in my post @R13, opera singing is very squeezed and very often not pleasing to the ear. The sound of most opera singers is just not nice.

You are right about bad opera singing (and there's a lt of that), R228, but good opera singing is glorious.

There are only few opera singer who get their voice to a level where their voices sound full and good. Most sound forced, stilted and narrow.

Celine and Whitney’s vocal power, range and unmatched techniques could have easily competed with any female opera singers and won.

Celine and Whitney’s vocal power, range and unmatched techniques could have easily competed with any female opera singers and won

This argument is so stupid. Opera singers are a totally different animal than pop singers. The incessant," Well, so and so could sing opera," or " Listen to this opera singer sing a popular song," is ludicrous. Acknowledge that each type is legit and move on; opera snobs can claim victory and pop princesses can continue thinking their way. Kelly Clarkson isn't going to sound good singing " “Sì, mi chiamano Mimì” and Kiri Te Kanawa isn't going to sound good singing," Stayin' Alive." It's just silly.

Neither Celine nor Whitney could sing for a straight four hours unamplified, over a full orchestra, and filled the MET.

Yes, they have gorgeous voices but they’re not opera singers not can do what opera singers can do

The difference is that virtually every opera singer has the technique to sing pop but they almost never have the style. Virtually no pop singer has either the technique or style to sing operas.

Opera singer's voices would not sustain the rigorous touring popular music singers do.

R236. Nonsense. Opera singers sing without amplification and sing several nights a week. It is true that many opera singers would avoid using some of the voice damaging techniques pop singers use. The want to have as king a career in top voice as possible.

Opera singers sing only every 4 to 5 days.

First of all what is your evidence for this statement? Second, Is that a sign of lack of ability or a sign of good sense. Lastly, you do realise singing with a microphone is a completely different affair from singing unamplified?

There is no way on earth Céline or Whitney could sing opera. They couldn’t even begin to. That is not a denigration of their talent. It’s simply an acknowledgement that they didn’t aspire to be opera singers and didn’t undergo the tears of specific training required. Since they didn’t attempt that training we will never know if they could have succeeded as opera singers or not.

It’s interesting that opera still exerts some snobbish attraction for pop music fans. Fans of Calllas, Pavarotti, etc. are not particularly invested in the idea that they could have succeeded as pop musicians if they wished.

Although the music Céline and Whitney make makes my skin crawl, what they have achieved is much more rare than almost any opera singer achieves. They created their own personal form of entertainment that’s immediately recognised and loved by millions of people. Am opera singer is just a vehicle for a composer’s music. Why their fans feel the need to make absurd claims that they could have succeeded in a completely different art form is beyond me.

Nina Simone exemplifies this phenomenon. She spent her life regretting she never succeeded as a classical musician despite the fact that she would probably be largely forgotten today if she had. Instead she created her own individual form of music that will keep her reputation alive for a long time to come.

[Quote] Opera singers sing only every 4 to 5 days.

Because it’s so fucking hard

[Quote] Opera singer's voices would not sustain the rigorous touring popular music singers do.

They could if all they needed to do was sing into a microphone

[quote]Lastly, you do realise singing with a microphone is a completely different affair from singing unamplified?

You not only need a new pair of ears, but also new glasses.

R243. What on earth is your point?

Here is Monserrat Caballe with not just one but two microphones in front of her!

You're an idiot R242!

Whitney’s singing opera in front of Luciano. You people can kindly f off

Celine’s attempt: head voice or falsetto?

Bump

Celine could never sing opera because she's not fat.

[Quote] Whitney’s singing opera in front of Luciano. You people can kindly f off

Whitney can barely sing 10 seconds and she’s out of breath

R250 is another retard

"Whitney can barely sing 10 seconds and she’s out of breath"

Considering Whitney Houston has been dead ten years now, fact that she can sing even ten seconds is a miracle in itself.

Bump

R247, when Celine dips into her chest register and then climbs back up to the high notes, there’s no register break. As I understand it, that means she’s singing with her head voice, not using falsetto.

R235 is completely right. Classical singers could easily sing pop a million times better than most pop singers if they simply altered the way in which they produce each sound - just thing of the way in which Renée Fleming sang indie rock Dark Hope, show tunes in her Broadway album and techno-pop in Distant Light. She has said that she found the pop and rock styles of singing to be incredibly easy and not much above talking.

And if you want to see someone who does classical and pop singing impeccably, sjut look at Dimash Kudaibergen - yes, he is exceptional, but Aida Garifullina adapted to pop just as well when they sang with Lara Fabian.

The people going on about how some pop singers are just as technically and expressively competent as opera singers can only come up with a bare handful of names of such brilliant pop singers in at least 70 years of pop (Whitney, Celine, is Ella Fitzgerald "pop"?), and even then they are referring not so much to live performances (as is the case with opera) but to studio recordings.

The point is that to have a career opera singers have to be excellent. Pop singers, even the biggest ones, can be utter shit and that gets covered up with studio processing and these days even autotune at supposedly "live" concerts. Most pop singers are not particularly great singers. Sure, better than you or me but they're not particularly great singers. Pop singers also have songs written for them or worked to fit around their voice or abilities, which covers up their limitations, whereas opera singers have to perform an established repertoire. We're also now in an era where there are very few great pop interpreters.

Here is Ariana Grande, arguably one of the current crop of female pop singers who is talented, singing apparently live (although her doing harmony with herself and having her own vocals as backing vocals suggests it's not all totally live).

It's ok, but it's not a wow performance, and she doesn't hit all the notes. The other problem with pop singing today, especially for female singers, it's that it's all belting and shouting, there's little nuance or developed skill required. It makes every song and every vocalist sound almost the same.

Ariana performing live for BBC1 radio, so she can't hide behind autotune. Very close to the microphone, relying a lot on the backing singers (who have to be good). For pop, it's ok. As a vocal performance, it's nothing much.

People like Whitney Houston, Aretha Franklin or Ella Fitzgerald were all excellent live performers R256.

The same handful of names from a history of 70 years, r259.

3:13 Cheno sings Puccini

Fucking Pavarotti could NEVER sing this.

Serious question, why does it matter if pop singers can sing opera or not (and vice versa)? It's such a different skill level, that I find the discussion futile. What next? Can jazz singers sing death metal? Who cares? They artistry is completely different.

Do you think the average rock guitarists could play Elizabethan lute music? Could the average lutenist play rock music? Who do you think is really more talented ‘?

R263, the entire thread is for the opera queens who think that everyone who isn't bowing at the feet of opera singers is a cretin. It's merely an exercise in masturbation and unwarranted arrogance.

[quote]The same handful of names from a history of 70 years, [R259].

These are just the names opera people, the ones with very little knowledge of decades of popular music recognize.

R265, the OP started this thread to argue that pop singers are better than opera singers. I'm not sure pointing out technical abilities is "arrogance" and it always intrigues me how the majority (i.e. those who don't listen to classical music) are always so quick to proclaim snobbery or whatever from listeners of opera or classical music when the snobbery and stereotyping is coming more from the "pop" side (people who listen to classical music are all snobs and weirdoes!).

Funny r266, because those are the names that pop fans are citing to show that pop singers are better than opera singers. I'm pretty sure r259 is arguing in favour of pop. Can you offer any other names, especially for pop singers active right now?

R267, there is so much digital manipulation of sound now, even in live performances, that it’s hard to tell who may have a good voice.

r233 not sure, Kelly Clarkson was classically trained.

Bump