Alternatives to Tesla

I would never purchase a vehicle from that asshole Elon Musk.

Neighbors just bought an Audi Q4 eTron. It is very fancy and the interior looks like a space ship compared to my 12 years old car. Amazing quality and milage. They are very happy with it, but it's quite expensive.

I know someone who's put their name on the list for the EV Chevy truck and says it's going to be one of the better EV trucks. He already has a Chevy pickup for his business so he may be biased. It does look pretty nice though (I generally don't like trucks).

Cadillac is hoping to make a comeback with their new EV...

There's lots of luxury EVs already, the car makers need to start pumping out more affordable options if we're really going to do something about emissions.

Teslas have lost their tax credit (7500) so that pushes them off a lot of lists these days.

You can use it for the Lucid I believe so it brings down the price a bit.

When Teslas first came out they were cool but now only losers drive them. If you notice, it’s not the tastemakers anymore. They have moved on. It no longer carries cache

R3 is gorgeous.

Neighbor has the Audi like r1. Perfection. Down the street, bought Ford eMach. Nothing but trouble. Stranded. Quits for no reason. Had to have it flat bedded to dealer. 6 week wait for parts. New Ford products seem to be thrown out on the market and hope for the best. Tesla quality build needs improvement.

I’ll wait 5 years then buy electric.

As these other car companies catch up, they are blowing Tesla out of the water. Tesla has rested on its laurels for a decade and will be seen as the boring, overpriced choice in the lot. When up against these other electric cars, they become last choice. Nothing special, run-of-the-mill.

I would be cautious with electric vehicles in general. There was some uproar a couple weeks ago over GM no longer providing replacement batteries for their Spark EV, which they now say is no longer the case - but who knows the entire truth, they may have been responding to the backlash. Batteries in EV's are eventually going to degrade over the course of a few years and if the carmaker stops supporting certain makes and models that are more than a few years old, the vehicle is basically useless and also pretty much has no resale value.

^ You're right, but I would think that more EV sales will open up a huge new business of after-market batteries

Polestar 2 is nice. Volvo made and 400hp with dual motors.

The next few years how will Tesla stand out?

They will be last week’s news. The second mouse gets the cheese.

I should buy stock in these other companies. Is Lucid a public company?

"Tesla has rested on its laurels for a decade."

That's what happens when you become the corporate version of a welfare queen: you get all fat and lazy. If Elon hadn't sucked down on those corporate welfare dollars, he would have been toast a decade ago.

^And saved the world a lot of trouble. Thanks Obama.

R13 I hope a lot of people call out Elon and his ilk who get rich off the government and then want to dismantle it.

Thiel is another one. Government contracts are his bread and butter yet he tries to make the government weak and wants it to disappear.

Can’t somebody get them on the record about their glaring hypocrisy? They need to answer for that.

Basically Tesla is just old news. It’s out of style. People move on from things and don’t want their parent’s toys.

This is what has cause the demise of several once popular car companies. They simply don’t keep up with newer offerings.

I think my next vehicle will be a gas hybrid.

From a labour standpoint, Tesla treats its employees like shit and they're not unionized unlike GM, Ford and other auto workers. That alone is why I won't buy a Tesla when I'm ready for an EV (in the next 4-5 years).

Taycan, Ioniq 5, and EV6 have 800V architecture and therefore the ability to charge quickly.

What do we know about ioniq? I want a Lucid and might order one. But want to look at some other brands first. Tesla is not on my list.

Lucid is having teething problems and Rivian production is struggling. I’d wait or look at the established makers (GM, Ford, Hyundai/Kia, VW/Audi…).

I don’t get all the Tesla-trashing, but I’m not a car buff. I have a 2018 Model 3 (that’s the cheap one). I was on the waiting list and got one of the earliest ones made. Got the full tax credit, too. I think there’s been only one company-identified problem with the car. I had to take it in once for some kind of correction to the wiring for the rear camera. Other than that, there have been no problems. I mainly drive it around LA and Palm Springs. After four+ years, the mileage is less than 50,000 miles. I’m extremely happy with the car and don’t see why it won’t continue to meet my (limited) expectations. My brother bought a Model 3 in 2020. By then, the price had gone up quite a bit and even the partial tax credit was no longer available. He does the kind of driving that I do and has had no problems whatsoever.

Maybe a good option would be a used Model 3 if you want a reliable car at a not-bad price. From what I’m reading here, you won’t impress a lot of people, but you’ll satisfy most driving needs with minimal problems.

I want to get an VW e-Golf

R22 is typical of teslas owners. They are in some sort of mass delusion. These piece of junk cars that fall apart or are completely unusable but they still rigorously defend their purchase and won’t budge an inch.

Every report that comes out about systemic quality issues makes them cling tighter to their purchase. It’s bizarre to say the least.

This message brought to you by Lucid. (Who no one has heard of, and probably never will. )

Minimal problems? Give me a break. The delusion of it all.

If new Teslas fall apart so easily why would anyone want a used one?

Teslas are trash and it’s time to say it out loud. Enough of the denial. Face the facts already. It’s ridiculous. They are junk. It’s a faulty product. The problems are with the shoddy manufacturing itself and there’s no way to fix these worthless lemons. Only complete assholes drive teslas and they make BMW owners seem polite and respectable.

You’re better off walking.

Who wants to think of Elon Musk and his smarmy antics every time they start their car?

Not me.

As if driving wasn’t stressful enough already.

I'm surprised at all the Tesla and Musk bashing. Musk set up Starlink satellites in Ukraine in partnership with the USAID which is giving them an edge in fighting Russia. That said Musk is no hero, but he isn't evil incarnate either.

I don't understand why Musk is doing everything he can to piss off liberals. Conservatives, especially the hard right ones won't be buying his EVs.

^As always the motherfucker wants all the credit, but in reality it wasn't a gift or selfless help for Ukrainians. The US government paid him for his Starlink satellite systems.

Those star links were worthless because they gave a way the Ukraines locations. Why would muck do that? So cruel to give them false hope.

And then he bashed the support for Ukraine. So he probably gave away their locations on purpose. If you think this person is altruistic then you’re a fool.

R33, link please.

Anyone who defends this creep is a gift because you know who to avoid in life and make sure to keep your distance and even have your mace ready in hand if you catch my drift. Support for him is a universal identifier of an unstable person.

I was done with him when he called that diver who saved those children "pedo guy" for simply living in Thailand and not agreeing with him and appreciating his ridiculous mini submarines.

I still can't believe that jury let him get away with this.

Elon is in bed with the fascists. He did not help Ukrainians. Don’t be so easily mislead, people:

“SpaceX sent Starlink internet terminals to Ukraine. They could paint a 'giant target' on users' backs, experts say. “

After CNN busted him, he was forced to release a statement making it look like an accident:

“Shortly after this story was originally published, Musk also weighed in on Twitter, saying "Important warning: Starlink is the only non-Russian communications system still working in some parts of Ukraine, so probability of being targeted is high. Please use with caution."

Of course Elon knew that before he sent them.

Also he was trashing people for supporting Ukraine. He has been seduced by the right wing. They have him right where they want him.

New owners of teslas realize they are arriving late to a party that is now over. Last weeks news. The rest of the world has moved on to better things.

I never thought propagandists would care about DL...

You have to admit Musk was at the cutting edge of calling critics pedos.

[quote]Only complete assholes drive teslas and they make BMW owners seem polite and respectable.

The people who were the stereotypical “asshole BMW drivers” all moved on to Tesla years ago. The remaining BMW owners are polite and respectable.

These electrics are all unreliable, overpriced California-centric monstrosities. None of them are suitable for use in cold climates, where the usable range is reduced by half.

R40 is a Tesla owner, I’d bet. I see this over and over. It’s like they are seriously brainwashed or in some sort of cult. A bunch of sickos. Don’t drive too close to them. Who knows what they will do in the name of their sacred leader. These are not people who are thinking for themselves.

If people would stop driving these huge suvs and pickup trucks that get 8 miles a gallon, then gasoline cars aren’t that bad. Especially a hybrid. That can use both.

Elon strikes me as a broken clock who happened to be right once decades ago and has coasted every since. Pure luck.

I calll bullshit on R63. I've driven electric (not Tesla) for seven years. The only thing I ever had to do was add windshield wiper fluid, and new tires. My VW eGolf and my ID.4 have proven themselves totally reliable. As for use in cold climates, it can't be that bad or EVs wouldn't be selling like hotcakes in Norway, Sweden, and other cold places. Modern EVs have battery warming systems that make winter range loss minimal.

It's fine if you don't want or like electric cars -But you have to keep up with the tech, rather than relying on ancient arguments that (if they ever were) are no longer valid.

I think a good alternative to Tesla would be another brand of car.

R37, I read the article by CC, Musk admitted there could be safety issues and not to put the satellites close to where people congregate. Even the critics admitted Starlink was useful but it had risks. Not everything is black and white and no I don't drive a Tesla.

Now, at the dawn of the conversion era, I would get the cheapest EV and drive it into the ground for 10 years.

By then, things will have cleared up after Tesla emerges from bankruptcy...

@r42, " The remaining BMW owners are polite and respectable. "

😂 No they're not... So, what model BMW do you drive?

OP- There is enough evidence to show that Mercedes are clearly LEMONS 🍋 as are German cars in general. One of the car experts at Consumer Reports recently said that BMW stands for Break My Wallet.

R1 - According to Consumer Reports that E model Audi has more worse than average reliability so the quality is not amazing.

When I still had my older car I used to love parking right beside douches with expensive cars who parked on an angle taking up two spots - usually a Mercedes, Caddy, BMW or higher-end truck.

I get the early evangelism for Tesla and all electric vehicles because we simply must stop using carbon-based fuels (and yes, I know electricity is [italic]currently[/italic] generated using carbon, but the reality is that we could generate 100% of our electricity with renewable means [italic]if we wanted to.[/italic] ). That said, Teslas are of poor build quality, off-the-shelf components substituted where traditional car manufacturers would engineer and manufacture custom parts, and are governed by the software ethos forced on users decades ago where you basically have to be an engineer to simply operate one, be it an early desktop PC or an early EV. This is nothing new; I come from a family of antique auto collectors and I have to laugh when people assume that cars have always been reliable, high quality machines out of the box, so to speak.

Musk is South African, and it doesn't take an automobile engineer to see that his vision for the world was shaped there, where there was a small ruling elite that did everything it could to hold back progress. It neither takes a psychologist to understand this fact. Musk doesn't care that average people can't afford his product that he positions as the future of automobiles. He could manufacture a low cost version, but he chooses not to, and does so because he does not care about people, the planet, and certainly not the American way of life (unless he can find a way to enrich himself in the process).

Musk is no hero. He is in this for himself and the very small group of people he considers his peers, probably enumerated with the fingers on one hand.

Nissan Ariya

Toyota bz4x

Genesis GV60

All these electric cars are $10k - $15k more expensive than comparably equipped gas vehicles from the same manufacturers. They’re certainly not going to save anyone money even with the zero fuel costs and reduced maintenance. Your home electricity costs are going to go up.

No, R56, your premise is incorrect:

The VW ID.4 has a sticker price of $41,320. After the rebates it goes for $33,260. Its gasoline-powered sibling the Tiguan, comparably equipped, goes for $30,120. So, basically $3k difference. The ID.4 comes with three years of free charging. The Tiguan has a combined MPG of 25 mpg. The average American drives a bit over 14,000 miles per year. Average price per gallon as of yesterday was $5.70. That means gas for a year will cost $3,192. Over three years that becomes $9,576. Add in the cost of oil changes and other misc. costs and the ID.4 is a better buy all around -without even considering the "green value" of driving an EV.

Those of you saying "you are lying if you say your Tesla has been running fine so far" are being ridiculous. I don't like Elon Musk, and the cars have issues, but that doesn't mean EVERYONE has issues when they drive it without exception.

Also, those of you saying Teslas aren't status symbols: Teslas with their waiting list and high price are still huge in California. They're still VERY much status symbols out here because anyone can go to a Mercedes or BMW dealership and grab one off the lot for a set price, but people have to wait to get Teslas and can't just snatch them up when they feel like it. Ownership of a Tesla is a way of saying "look at me! I had to wait to get this $55K car."

Toyota bz4x

Genesis GV60

ID4 etc.

Those are some uninspiring, boring names. Imagine your neighbor asking about your new car and you have to say your bz4x is such a wonderful and fancy car you've dropped 40k on it.

I don’t think the criticism is that Teslas don’t run well or are unreliable. It’s that they have poor build quality… misaligned body panels, loose trim prices, interior rattles. You won’t find that on a new Mercedes or BMW.

Batteries doesn’t cover enough miles and I don’t have an hour to wait for a charge if I’m in the middle of a long drive (like NYC to DC). I’d rather get a hybrid than pure electric at this point.

By 2025, there should be tons more to choose from

I drive a 2019 Kia Soul EV. Very happy with it, but it has limited range. But I didn't want to spend a lot of money on a brand new car so I bought an older model. The 2022 model has a better range. Sadly I don't think this car is available in USA. Other popular EV cars here are Renault Zoe and Nissan Leaf, those are the cheapest and you get all the incentives of the EV policies, like free toll roads, free public parking, you can use the bus lane on highways etc. And of course you save a fortune on gas.

Anyone who calls other guys pedos when they call his stupid ideas out is a prick

Or a Trumpublican.

[quote]According to Consumer Reports that E model Audi has more worse than average reliability so the quality is not amazing.

I'm not sure if you've ever had a German car, but they're pretty reliable from my experience and they're high quality. The interior is usually premium quality with great finishes. I've had American, Japanese and German cars and you simply cannot compare a BMW or Audi with a Toyota.

Out of the more expensive good alternatives to Tesla, you have Polestar, Hyundai Ioniq 5, Ford Mustang Mach-E, Audi E-Tron etc.

Electric cars with the best range.

I think I still like Tesla.. I would drive one. The prices have come down some as the used ones are always more than a new model 3. There's so many of them in California, I see them all the time.

My new fave is Rivian. So it's a truck. And it is on the higher end/luxury side. The design looks great. The colors are great. They have a believable ethical platform and an adventurer appeal.

Remember that if you qualify for the $7500 tax credit, you don’t get that money back until the following year when you file your taxes. And you don’t get it if you lease the car, since you’re not the owner. (The majority of people driving $50k+ cars are leasing them).

Do you Americans have any incentives to buy an EV? Like... free toll roads, access to the public transit lane on highways, free public parking etc? Here in Norway new EVs are also exempt from our 25 % VAT.

^ Yes, but it varies state to state

The Renault Mégane E-Tech has gotten great reviews. It's built on the same CMF-V platform as the Nissan Ariya.

R71 Thanks, I was curious. I would deffo consider buying one then, if I was American. Here in Norway we have lost most of our incentives because they were supposed to be temporary to get more people to buy EVs, now that 80 % of new sold cars are EV they are starting to remove incentives like free toll roads, free parking etc. They're even talking about implementing the VAT on new EVs from next year. I don't give a shit, like, yeah, it sucks, but it's expected. This has been coming for a while. Even if we lose all incentives, it's still cheaper than a regular gas car because electricity is cheaper than gas, and it's better for the environment because 98 % of our electricity comes from hydro power.

[quote]The VW ID.4 has a sticker price of $41,320. After the rebates it goes for $33,260. Its gasoline-powered sibling the Tiguan, comparably equipped, goes for $30,120. So, basically $3k difference.

An All Wheel Drive base ID.4, which is what most people in states where it snows will want, is at least $46k. A more well-equipped one will be much more. Compared to a comparably equipped AWD Tiguan SE which will be about $32k. The price difference is much more than $3k.

Rivian

This is an enlightening thread. In response to my original comment, r22, some of the comments are over-the-top, but I understand what’s being implied. I’ll say it again: my early Model 3 has been nearly problem-free for four years and 48,700 miles. It’s never been driven hard and I live in a relatively mild, dry climate. Looking online, some of the most pervasive complaints are about poor body panel fit, rust, poor back-up camera, touchscreen malfunction, and gps problems. I think my backup camera is a little crude, especially after experiencing the superior backup camera on a friend’s Model S, but mine is acceptable. I don’t rely on it much, anyway. My brother’s Model 3, two years newer than mine, isn’t quite as good. We joked that mine must have been made when the company was a little more careful and were trying to establish a good reputation for the new model. We immediately noticed some ill-fitting body panels in his new car, but it wasn’t enough to get upset about. He’s had no leakage. Something I’d forgotten about is that his touchscreen crashed after about a year. Tesla replaced it. Other than that, we have no complaints with our cars. Our cars certainly aren’t “junk,” “falling apart”, or “unusable.”

At the time I made the deposit on my car, I’ll admit that I felt like a virtuous trail-blazer. I was also thrilled that I’d be able to have one of the first affordable Teslas. I thought Elon Musk was a total asshole, but that didn’t matter. Today, with the reputation he now has, I’d never buy anything from him. There now seem to be better, more affordable alternatives. Still, my car has served me well and I’ll stick with it as long as I can.

Does anyone feel bad for buying a car from an anti-vaxxer? You're literally supporting an anti-vaxxer with money. It just feels wrong to buy a Tesla when I know Musk is a rightwing nutbag.

R65- You response belongs on the Insufferable thread

R65 is 100% correct. The German brands have superior build quality and driving dynamics. They just do.

I’ll also add that BMW’s turbo engines are very efficient. I have a newer 330i that regularly gets 30 mpg in my usual mix of city and highway driving. I think that’s very respectable efficiency from an all-wheel-drive car that can do 0-60 in less than 6 seconds.

"BMW Reliability Rating Breakdown. The BMW Reliability Rating is 2.5 out of 5.0, which ranks it 30th out of 32 for all car brands. This rating is based on an average across 345 unique models. The average annual repair cost for a BMW is $968, which means it has average ownership costs."

Meh 😏

Musk just seems so swarmy...

Love my Kia Niro EV. It's a small SUV. I bought the Premium Package and with a full charge, I get almost 300 miles. I live in Hawaii, so that's more than enough to get around. I typically recharge once a week.

There’s no fucking way I’m paying $50k for a fucking Toyota or Kia. Not gonna happen.

Consumer Reports ranks BMW #3 out of 32 among all car brands, behind only Subaru and Mazda.

Jesus r80, fuck off with your Reliability ratings bullshit. I've had several Audis/German cars and never had any problems with them. Bought a new A4 in 2009 and never had any additional costs or repairs besides the annual inspection. My Toyota was a piece of shit compared to Audi and I would never pay $50k or $80k for a Nissan, Kia or Toyota.

R82 Same. I love my Kia Soul.

@r85, Better tell your buddies @BMW Blog they're wrong...

R79- ALL German cars become MONEY PITS after the honeymoon ( warranty expires) .

R79= Frasier Crane

R58 joins us from 2009.

Welcome.

Who is saying 50k for a Toyota? Is a Prius that much?

R91- Toyota Highlanders sell for that much nowadays.

Just be sure to keep your Tesla away from airports, seems they don't recognize planes and will crash right into them. Try explaining that to your insurance company

[quote]Who is saying 50k for a Toyota? Is a Prius that much?

A Toyota bZ4X electric AWD Limited costs $49,995.

^ Just try and find one that cheap

Toyota supports election-denying Republicans.

It's going to be a long time before you start seeing Rivian's and Lucids on the road. They're both having huge production problems. And no one has road tested production line versions yet.

Tesla meanwhile:

Where's Tesla's Cybertruck?

Ford already has one for sale...

NYTimes April 2 2022:

"Tesla, the world’s leading electric car company, on Saturday reported a steep increase in worldwide sales in the first three months of the year as it overcame supply chain problems and moved closer to production levels on a par with established luxury carmakers like BMW and Mercedes-Benz."

"The nearly 70 percent increase was in contrast with major carmakers like General Motors and Toyota, which reported big sales declines on Friday because of shortages of key components."

[quote]A Toyota bZ4X electric AWD Limited costs $49,995.

You can have a very nicely equipped, sharp-driving, stylish-looking, free-maintenance for 3 years BMW X3 for the same price. No thanks right-wing Toyota.

Fisker

I drive back and forth between the valley and West Hollywood every day. On my drive, literally, every other car is a fucking Tesla. For a city full of liberals, I'm truly surprised to see this kind of obliviousness and hypocrisy.

R102, Hollywood is a cesspool of obliviousness and hypocrisy. The rest of the country has been knew for a long time.

I have ridden in Teslas a few times but didn't really have in interest in them. I scored and got a Lyft driver with a Tesla. I asked him a lot of questions. The one thing he said was annoying was that everything is controlled by that iPad in the center, including AC, etc. There are no knobs (nobs?). That's seems like it would be an ordeal.

Tesla's market cap is now equal to that of the next ten automakers combined (or at least it was a couple months ago). It's insane, and it's gonna blow up. I was sad to find out that one of the mutual funds in my retirement plan has several percent of its assets in Tesla stock. So while I wouldn't mind see Musk go up in smoke, I'm not thrilled about the hit my retirement will take.

No need to be a cunt, R103. I've lived here for three years, and I know.

They aren't very luxurious for the price. For 100K+ I would rather have something that feels and drives comfortably.

I see a lot of electric vehicles waiting to charge at Service Areas on the road to my place in New England. I like the idea, but would have range anxiety. I run my Air Conditioner on high and I live in the Southwest, with long stretches of highway. For now, I have a compact gas powered vehicle that is simple to maintain and operate. But I’m watching for the right hybrid or EV and will know it when I see it.

I think the BMW i3 had a rough slog in the market and performed poorly in crash testing. I see them for sale quite inexpensive, but I bet they will be hard and expensive to service.

Teslas are ok. Maybe a little prissy.

Mercedes-Benz EQS 580 4 Magic - A Redline review. Interesting watch.

Again, the car makers need to come out with affordable EVs. Middle class and working class can't afford to spend 50, 60 grand or more on a car.

I admire Elon Musk and what he's achieved. For decades Cadillac and Lincoln had been trying to take on the Euro prestige cars but Elon Musk did it with the Tesla Model S. But today his cars are starting to look dated. And the interiors look like they were designed by Ikea compare to a Mercedes..

I don't think he has much to worry about from the start ups, but the big established car companies are getting into the game and it's going to be interesting to see how Tesla confronts this new competiton.

Nissan Leaf is a very reasonably priced car for working-class buyers. It's a very practical, reliable, basic EV.

[quote]I like the idea, but would have range anxiety. I run my Air Conditioner on high and I live in the Southwest, with long stretches of highway.

Electrics aren’t good in hot climates, or in cold climates. Maybe they work in Nebraska??

[quote]And the interiors look like they were designed by Ikea compare to a Mercedes..

^This.

I cringe when I see teslas and their smug owners. It’s just not a cool car anymore. It’s your dad’s EV.

[quote]Nissan Leaf is a very reasonably priced car for working-class buyers. It's a very practical, reliable, basic EV.

Not available with All Wheel Drive. Good way to ignore more than half of the country.

Imagine paying $50k for this? Insane.

R104 Ugh that big touch screen. I had an UBER Tesla driver last weekend who fiddled with that touchscreen to the point of distraction. Then, when we merged onto a span of highway, he said “watch this!” and floored the accelerator into the rear of a car ahead of us. The car surged forward but then faded back due to a sensor that prevented us from rear-ending the car ahead. But it was a weird interaction. The behavior of some of these drivers is irritating. We are in a weird place technologically, some end-users feel invincible and so cool.

"I admire Elon Musk " is a statement I can't hear myself saying for a long, long time after his asinine behavior of the last year (and especially since he didn't even found Tesla or invent anything himself.).

[quote]Again, the car makers need to come out with affordable EVs. Middle class and working class can't afford to spend 50, 60 grand or more on a car.

I'm leasing a 2021 Hyundai Kona Electric ($42,000) for $200 a month. I'm happy with it too. They're not that far out of reach if you have decent credit.

Also, I have a choice of charging the car for free or for a flat fee of $5, depending on which public fast charger I use.

[quote]especially since he didn't even found Tesla or invent anything himself

He is legally listed as one of the company's founders.

He's been CEO of the company for nearly 20 years.

R109, The Mercedes EQE is a few inches shorter but looks nearly identical to the EQS. It's supposed to be more "affordable" too, at around $83,000.

[quote]I'm leasing a 2021 Hyundai Kona Electric ($42,000) for $200 a month. I'm happy with it too. They're not that far out of reach if you have decent credit.

Did you put $10k down to get that “$200 a month” lease??

I put $1000 down. I could have gotten the $38000 model for no money down and $250 a month. Practically every Hyundai dealer in the city was offering something similar. The ads were everywhere. You had to have great credit though.

Plus, Consumer Reports said it was a great car. As I said, I've had no trouble with it.

Is the Toyota Prius considered an Gas/Electric hybrid? It's been around for years, so I'd think they got all of their bugs out, but I never hear much about it. Anybody have experience with the Prius?

R125, Prius is a hybrid. You don't hear much about them anymore because all the car manufacturers are gearing up for the all-electric, zero emissions mandates going to take effect around 2030.

R125 Prius cars were huge 5-10 years ago in CA. They’re fading out now and I don’t see them as often. I support hybrids as a step up from full gas power, but they are ugly as HELL and thieves steal the catalytic converters in CA cities constantly if you look on Nextdoor to the point where people are now coughing up $400+ just for a shield for the Prius.

Designers also inexplicably made recent Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords look sportier (they’re practically identical because of copycatting), which I think is a extremely ugly for a sensible sedan car.

R120 FYI, the Hyundai Kona Electric and the Kia Niro EV are pretty much the same car. Hyundai owns Kia.

How long have we been hearing about this mystical Tesla truck. At least 7 or 8 years. Is it going to happen?

Hundai and Kia have a lot of basically the same cars. It recalls the the Chrysler/Plymouth days when they had a lot of the same cars with different names. I guess it makes business sense.

The thing about EVs is once they reach a critical mass, those charging stations won’t be free anymore. They can charge as much as gas.

Public transportation would have been the better investment from an economic and environmental perspective.

R130, The Hyundai Ioniq 5, Kia EV6, and Genesis GV60 are all built on the same platform and are basically variations on a theme--crossover EVs. The Kia EV6 is the sportier of the three, and the Genesis GV60 is the luxury model designed to rival the German brands.

For R121

R133 Eberhard and Tarpenning have been gone from the company for over 10 years. It is during those 10 years that Tesla became the car company it is today.

R134, the point was that Tesla wasn’t Musk’s idea or his invention. He brought the money and some leadership, but he’s not some great inventor. He’s a rich kid from South Africa who learned to invest well.

R135 I've never heard him described as an "inventor". He's a visionary businessman.

[quote]He’s a rich kid from South Africa who learned to invest well.

You understand little about business.

“visionary businessman”

Good grief.

Does anyone remember Who Killed the Electric Car documentary in the early 2000s? Some vehicle manufacturers were breaking out with electric cars in the mid to late late 90s after California laws mandated more electric vehicles and the companies made prototypes but tanked them to “prove” there was no market for EVs in the public eye (many culprits were blamed) and all of the EVs on the market were destroyed.

Just a few years later Tesla would start selling their EVs, many hybrids came out, and EVs are clearly considered the path of future for vehicles at this point.

But damn, companies are really clinging to their gas-powered car models despite the need for change.

[quote]He brought the money and some leadership

Oh, I see. "some" leadership. Then please explain to us who has been guiding the company through the development of the Model S, 3, X, Y, the charging network, the expansion of sales around the world, the growth into the world's most valuable car company, the 6th most valuable company in the US...etc and etc....

Please do tell us.

per R102

[quote] On my drive, literally, every other car is a fucking Tesla. For a city full of liberals, I'm truly surprised to see this kind of obliviousness and hypocrisy.

Elon's annoying on Twitter and Teslas are still pricey but driving an EV is worth it(?). What would you have them drive? Are the other car companies so much better?

R140 whacks off to Musk’s picture daily.

R142 I don't even care for his cars, but do answer my question at R140. Thanks in advance.

What we need is better public transit. Think about what that would do for the environment.

"But damn, companies are really clinging to their gas-powered car models despite the need for change. "

Millions of people live in apartments without access to electrical hook-ups. You can't tell people to go all electric until adequate charging stations are available.

"What we need is better public transit."

You can't force people to take the bus if they don't want to

R145 sure, we need to make sure our energy is mostly renewable, as well. But the US could achieve this and making electric hookups more accessible for all everywhere. We have the technologies, but someone somewhere is fighting it tooth and nail, probably corporations that profit from oil reliance.

The Koch family for starters. They hate this crap. But you don’t see big bad Elon going after the Kochs.

He picks on easy targets like AOC and Bill Gates.

This Tesla truck is probably another one of Elons flake jobs.

‘Oh look, a squirrel.’

Someone upthread mentioned the $7500 federal rebate, saying that you have to wait until tax time to get it, and that if you lease you don't get it at all. That's not true. I leased my last two cars and the dealer took the $7500 off the price of the car (as he was getting the credit). If your dealer doesn't do that, find a different dealer!

I'm retired and in the market for a small, affordable plug-in city car. At this stage in my life I mostly run errands within 15 miles, and rent cars for anything beyond that. I recently bought my first electric vehicle, a Ride1Up V2 Roadster ebike, which is really delightful. Vroom-vroom!

If Elon ever makes anything tiny, I'll still not buy anything from the little fascist.

People who have 'em are raving about the Ioniq 5 and its Kia equivalent. They're getting verrrrrrry good reviews, too.

[Quote]Again, the car makers need to come out with affordable EVs. Middle class and working class can't afford to spend 50, 60 grand or more on a car.

Those exist. They are called Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. Both are cheap compared to other EVs.

Hyundai's are so shitty. I'm surprised they cost as much as 42,000 and your payment is only $200. Maybe they are are fire selling them.

Everyone is talking about the Mercedes EQS. I haven't seen one on the street, but described it as "what a persian dad in Beverly Hills would drive". I wonder if they will make an EQC for the poors. If they could do a C class for 50K, that is close to the Hyundai.

[quote]Millions of people live in apartments without access to electrical hook-ups. You can't tell people to go all electric until adequate charging stations are available.

This is me. I'd have to arrange my life around having time to charge my car somewhere for a few hours. Besides the amount of charging stations, the 'fast charging' needs to be better developed.

Elon tricked Tesla drivers into a living beta and had them foot the costs for all the defects. No wonder he is so rich when there are so many people willing to pay for tech that is not ready for prime time. They will do anything to be see as early adopters. ‘You MUST notice me!’

[Quote]This is me. I'd have to arrange my life around having time to charge my car somewhere for a few hours. Besides the amount of charging stations, the 'fast charging' needs to be better developed.

They could also just develop a standardized, replaceable battery unit and when your battery is empty, you get a full unit at a "gas station". You drive over a ramp at a "gas station" and a robot underneath your car simply replaces your battery unit. No individual charging, no worries about range or waiting time to charge your car. Impossible? Probably, since we still need multiple chargers for our phones, tablets, watches and companies are unwilling to agree to a standard. They want to charge extra for better batteries and range. But this would actually be a much better solution for millions of people without access to electrical hook-ups at their homes. Maybe in the future an organization like the EU will step in and force companies to solve this.

How about a broom?

[quote]Hundai and Kia have a lot of basically the same cars. It recalls the the Chrysler/Plymouth days when they had a lot of the same cars with different names. I guess it makes business sense.

Platform engineering is not the same thing as "badge engineering."

Arcimoto from Bend, Oregon! Anyone for a E-Tuktuk?

At first I read this as Alternatives to Testa! I can think of many...

Automotive engineer legend Sandy Munro has consulted with Tesla and Arcimoto. He checks out the Arcimoto 2021 summer showcase in Portland here.

Bravo Elon...after decades of American cars high-end buyers shunned.

And all of those Teslas you see in the US, are manufactured in the US.

And: "Tesla Dominates 2021 American-Made Index, 4 Cars Make The Top 10. EV maker has the highest average total domestic content at 81 percent, according to Kogod's Made in America ranking.

I love Arcimoto and have a thought or two..

1 - I think they're in the same boat as some other new companies in supply chain crunches. Perhaps because of this, when I first found them the FUVs were more like 12K not 17K.

2 - I think they know they have to focus on ramping up instead of different use cases. I worry they're confused on who their customer is or who they want to appeal to.

3 - Weather conditions. They have a half door option and a case for it being "ok" in rain.

4- I see then as a fun rental thing in a beachy place which is what they're doing with them in Key West, Ft. Lauderdale, SF, San Diego. I don't really see it as a highway thing. If I had one I'm picturing more "errands in town" vibe.

It's early days. Here's their new e-trike.

Alternatives to Tesla?

Take a bus, you elitist asshole.

My neighbor swears by her Toyota Prius; she’s had it 6 years and it’s never broken.

[quote][R40] is a Tesla owner, I’d bet. I see this over and over. It’s like they are seriously brainwashed or in some sort of cult. A bunch of sickos. Don’t drive too close to them. Who knows what they will do in the name of their sacred leader. These are not people who are thinking for themselves.

Sickos? Did you learn English from Carol Burnett reruns?

Can the Musk fanboys stick to tonguing his asshole in his twitter replies?

R167 Musk is gross. Anti-vaxxer and anti-science rightwing nutbag.

Musk is King of the Incels

r102, I don't know if WB still does it, but they used to give Teslas like candy as a thank you to high producing directors and producers.

I love the Musk Derangement Syndrome.

Work yourselves into a tizzy, people.

Gas hybrids have too many parts that can go wrong, we’re on the list for a Lyriq and they extended my husband’s lease on his Caddy until delivery.

I own a 2019 Final Edition Beetle with three years bumper to bumper warranty left on it and am staying put until it’s paid off. It’s such a fun bit finicky car, solid engine but can cost a fortune if you need to repair it!

I’m considering the VW Bus because we want an RV, but need to drive one as it would be my commuting car.

Walking?

Tesla is doomed. Elon has shit all over his liberal buying base. He’s anti union. He’s the definition of right wing toxic masculinity. We all hate him now.

Plus the cars are actual garbage. A friend of mine described them as the world’s most expensive software. As cars, they’re shit. They rattle, break down, are impossible to get fixed and when you can get them fixed cost a fortune. Mechanics won’t work on them because they’re trash. On top of that, no one actually buys them. Every other carmaker does multiples of business over overhyped Tesla. They’re basically vaporware. Elon will abandon Tesla when he realizes it carries no further weight and when the bubble finally pops on his dead company’s valuation, which it will.

He’s really turning into Trump V2.0 lately. Thank God he cannot run for POTUS.

^ Oh, sure, until he buys America and changes the rules 😜

Servile Musk fantards can't help but defend their lord and savior as if doing so will get them a ride on his spaceship. I tweeted about the questionable build quality of a friend's $100k+ Model S plaid and got swarmed by those freaks. A lot seem to believe that the only people who might not want a Tesla are those who can't afford a Tesla. One particularly deranged and virulent example got me, against better judgement because who really gives a fuck, to post a picture of my garage with cars that exceed in price any Tesla in existence. Of course he instablocked me after that. Even the calmer one are often nasty snobs with bizarre superiority complexes worse than any BMW driver of the past. The cars are technologically interesting, but not so much that you'd voluntarily join that cult. Especially when alternatives already exist and more will in the future.

R177, the only ones on this thread with attitude and using wild ad hominem are the "Musk bashers."

So far in 2022 (as of April 9th) the Tesla Model Y is the 3rd best selling American car (not truck) in the USA. And it's the best selling electric.

That's a pretty incredible showing.

R179 there has been very little competition until very recently. The new electric cars from established automakers that know how to build a quality product will be the death of Tesla. And the fact that Musk is alienating his buyers who tend to skew liberal. They are no longer cool.

r178 My tweet wasn't about Musk. It was about the atrocious construction of a car that cost six figures. I don't care about Musk, but his freakish worshippers need culling.

I didn't realize that Teslas only have a touch screen and not any physical knobs. WTF!? Because that's so safe and smart--make a screen where you have to hit a bunch of buttons to get to the menu you need and to get to your heating and A/C and audio settings and wipers?

What idiot decided that a touch screen was a safe way to handle settings on your car while you drive? How does this pass safety standards at all in the U.S.?

You're basically using an iPad in your car every time you get in.

A German court declared Tesla's car controls as a "distracting electronic device."

I swear by my Toyota Highlander. I looked up the longest lasting cars that a reliable and won’t cost me a fortune; they were mostly all Toyota made.

R183 I want a Toyota 4-Runner. Try finding a new one. Yes the gas mileage sucks but those things are bullet proof.

Uh whut? Tesla Model Y is not even in the top ten, and do they even deliver their cars on time if at all? It won’t be the top selling electric for long. Toyota, Ford, and Volkswagen all have affordable modes coming out and will absolutely swamp Tesla.

[quote]Tesla Model Y is not even in the top ten, and do they even deliver their cars on time if at all?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Every word I wrote is true: "So far in 2022 (as of April 9th) the Tesla Model Y is the 3rd best selling American car (not truck) in the USA. And it's the best selling electric."

I’m shocked how many people pay $50-$100,000 for a car. That is crazy! Unless I’ve got $10M in the bank, I couldn’t justify that. I’ve seen Tesla’s in driveways of houses that clearly can not afford them. I just don’t understand how or why people spend so much money on a car instead of a house.

R187 the average price for a new car has now hit $45k. The used market is averaging around $29k. I dunno how most of the buyers can afford it.

[quote]Toyota, Ford, and Volkswagen all have affordable modes coming out and will absolutely swamp Tesla.

They may have announced vehicles, and may ship a small quantity. However, every new electric model from manufacturers other than Tesla are severely battery-constrained, and will be for the foreseeable future. No one else has the battery-building capacity, vertical integration, and manufacturing infrastructure already built and producing at volume, and they won't for at least the next several years. You may not like it, but Tesla has an almost 10-year headstart on these issues.

There are several clickbait videos on YouTube, apparently from the same dubious content factory, which go something like "Mindblowing!! Elon Musk reveals new $5000 Tesla!" Millions of views.

[quote]Every word I wrote is true: "So far in 2022 (as of April 9th) the Tesla Model Y is the 3rd best selling American car (not truck) in the USA. And it's the best selling electric."

Ford, GM, and Chrysler stopped making cars, so not impressive that Tesla is the THIRD best selling American car in 2022.

R191, Ford still makes the Mustang and Mustang Mach-E, plus the Escape. Chrysler still makes the Chrysler 300 and the Dodge Challenger and Charger. Chevy still makes the Malibu, Spark, and Bolt.

[quote]Ford, GM, and Chrysler stopped making cars, so not impressive that Tesla is the THIRD best selling American car in 2022.

The Tesla Model Y is an all wheel drive SUV.

Of American vehicles that are not trucks the Tesla Model Y is the 3rd best seller.

Got it now?

[quote]No one else has the battery-building capacity, vertical integration, and manufacturing infrastructure already built and producing at volume, and they won't for at least the next several years. You may not like it, but Tesla has an almost 10-year headstart on these issues.

AND Tesla owns the biggest charging network in the world.

R18, how are things in the 1980's?

R187, true. But right now they aren't paying high gas prices.

My neighbor has a Porsche Taycan. Nice car! Maybe he will offer me a ride?

Tesla is rapidly losing ground in Europe as consumers opt for quality and reliability from tried and tested brands. Many are already seen as better than Tesla and BMW's next line is set to blow them out of the water. I expect the same will happen in America.

Yes, R186, please continue to cherry pick your nonsense information to make it look like people are buying Teslas. 🤣🤣🤣

Ehhhhh try again R189.

Keep trying Muskites. You’re no better than Trumpies.

R199, being impervious to facts isn't a way to live, son. It's unfortunate that Tesla threads here always devolve exactly this way.

Teslas aren't "pieces of crap". You're just mad Musk bought Twitter and can't handle the fact the lunatic left won't have free reign over it.

You're exposed, fool.

Meanwhile, my trusty 2007 Prius is still chugging along, maybe $400-600/year in gas.

R204 For real? You haven't had to replace the battery?

r205, *knocks on wood* No. maybe the 10 year thing was a conservative estimate? To tell you the truth, I haven't heard of anybody needing to replace theirs.

R198 Note: Tesla is the ONLY American made car on that list. And there are not one but two on the top ten list.

That's quite an achievement something that Ford and GM have never done.

[quote]Yes, [R186], please continue to cherry pick your nonsense information to make it look like people are buying Teslas.

Facts are facts.

The stories of hybrids needing the batteries changed turned out to be mostly an urban legend -perhaps spread by the people who didn't want to see the technology succeed... People spread a lot of misinformation that they are just sure is true...

[R108], BMW i3 always had very good crash test results. (Tire reliability was awful, however.)

If BMW of USA still wanted to sell a subcompact or compact EV here in the States, I'd buy it to replace my i3. Sadly they don't seem interested, so I might try Genesis GV60 instead. I would never want a Tesla.

Oh please. There were no cars available to be sold in 2021 and not much so far in 2022. The rankings a skewed to say the least. Tesla was able to slap more cars together with their shoddy manufacturing because there are nowhere near the quality of legacy brands who are held to higher standards. They can’t just slap any old thing together like these piece of crap.

Nobody will be driving these jalopies in 2023 when the inventories of the rest of the car companies start catching up.

[quote]Oh please. There were no cars available to be sold in 2021 and not much so far in 2022. The rankings a skewed to say the least. Tesla was able to slap more cars together with their shoddy manufacturing because there are nowhere near the quality of legacy brands who are held to higher standards. They can’t just slap any old thing together like these piece of crap.

Why does Consumer Reports rate them so highly?

"The updated Tesla Model S probably would have garnered the highest road-test score we’ve ever recorded if it weren’t for its new yoke-style steering wheel."

Their highest road test score of all time.....but for their new steering wheel!

For a $100,000+ car, I hope it’s one of the best they have driven. Do people just not care how expensive Tesla’s are? They are discussed like they are a Ford. $100k for a car! Capitalism needs to go - time for a revolution,

[quote]Their highest road test score of all time.....but for their new steering wheel!

Road Test Score isn’t particularly important when it falls apart after two months.

[quote]And we now have Lucid motors. This is what all the cool kids are ordering. They are coming out just now. Most people can’t even get one yet. Super exclusive.

So super exclusive they've only been able to deliver 360 cars so far.

And in the meantime they've jacked up prices by $10 -15,000 making their cheapest model start at $90,000.

Here's an article about the cars production woes:

"Ordering parts on Amazon, 100-hour weeks, and broken glass: Lucid insiders detail the EV startup's fight to ramp up production"

I need a smallish crossover type vehicle so am considering either the Kona or the Bolt EUV. I'm financially comfortable but refuse to spend upwards of 60 K on a car. The Leaf would be okay, but a bit too small for what I need.

I really prefer a premium subcompact, but there are fewer of them now. I really like the 1-series BMW coupes, but can’t find one with low mileage. Most second hand ones that come to market are convertibles, and they feel too much like the old VW convertible Rabbits. Strangely feminine.

If I could find a silver 1-series coupe with light colored Sensitech upholstery with low mileage,I’d buy it right away.

I miss the compact turbodiesel CDI engines I drove in France for years. I wish they had them here, but no, they don’t.

R217, shoot for the 128i. The turbo'd 135i has hosts of issues, most prominently the high pressure fuel pump failing.

Have had a Tesla Model Y for two years. No problems at all. Really like it.

My Uber last night was a red Tesla long range model, surprisingly nicely laid out and comfortable, yet a little bit like a fast golf cart. I did admire the climate control.

Mercedes EQS. New BMW i7. Tesla is OVER! Liberals don’t want to be associated with Musk anymore.

[quote]Mercedes EQS. New BMW i7. Tesla is OVER! Liberals don’t want to be associated with Musk anymore.

Yes, screw American workers and buy foreign made!

[quote]shoot for the 128i. The turbo'd 135i has hosts of issues, most prominently the high pressure fuel pump failing.

BMW fixed the fuel pump problems in their turbo I6 engine a long time ago. That hasn’t been an issue for at least 8 years now.

R221 they are both made in America now. get with the times.

R223, which is when the 135i was replaced by the 2 series. The N55 fixed most of the issues the N54 engine had. But not all. Hence its redesign to the B58 with Toyota in the Supra.

Luxury cars lose their value quickly. Look at how many Uber/Doordash drivers are in cars like BMW's, Cadillac's and Lexus's these days. I see these and more and more in used car lots constantly.

[quote]For a $100,000+ car, I hope it’s one of the best they have driven. Do people just not care how expensive Tesla’s are?

Last I looked, a Tesla Model 3 was priced at $45,000 to $60,000. A Model Y is also about $60,000, I think.

The Model 3 is the only Tesla that Consumer Reports likes and recommends. They think the Model S rides beautifully but they don't recommend it because they hate everything else about it.

R209 BMW i3 has been discontinued and a replacement will be released this year. Designwise, I thought it was the most beautiful EV hatchback.

Lol - I’ve been in 3 Ubers lately that were Tesla’s. Are these people doing this as a side hustle to pay for the car? I don’t understand how an Uber driver affords a Tesla.

R229, we had a Lyft driver who also listed his cars on Turbo, so he had a fleet of Mercedes and BMWs. No doubt that's how. It sure was fun getting to go home in an E-class.

Turo. Hate spell check.

R229, all the Ubers I took during a recent trip to Palm Springs were Teslas. Literally every single one. I think the retirees must have to have a side hustle as an Uber driver to pay for their "hip" Tesla.

I spend about 10 us dollars on "fuel" a month for my electric car. How much do you guys use on your gas guzzlers?

Teslas should come with an "I'm saving the world" feature for jacking off the driver.

R233 Hoe many miles is that?

[quote] And we now have Lucid motors. This is what all the cool kids are ordering.

Hi, Lucid PR shill!

Where would one go to service a Lucid, Rivian, or Fisker?

The Jaguar I-Pace won the World Car of the Year award, World Car Design of the Year as well a World Green Car of the Year. Probably worth a look!

R235 About 650 miles.

Bicycles, foot scooters, walking..

[quote] Where would one go to service a Lucid, Rivian, or Fisker?

Starting with diagnostics with app has me a little suspicious.. Rivian claims to have mobile techs and service centers.

"Starting with diagnostics with app has me a little suspicious.."

Me too. That sounds too much like using Comcast's customer service app when you're stranded by the side of the road.

If you break down on the side of the road then it doesn’t matter where you bought the car. That’s a stupid example.

Good thing that teslas have dealships you can take them to weekly with constant issues due to shoddy manufacturing.

R243, if I break down on the side of the road in a Ford, I can call the Ford dealership - there's always one within a few miles- and get a tow. How many Rivian dealerships do you pass when you're out driving around?

A Tesla just caught on fire and the doors automatically locked the passenger inside. Someone has to break the windows to get him out

Teslas are the only 100k car that I see constantly stranded for one reason or another.

Never seem to see any other 100k on the side of the road.

R245 this kind of stuff happens with teslas everyday you see something or other happening on the west coast. I don’t know if it makes the national news or not but people over here are starting have teslas number. They have a “reputation” so to speak.

Teslas always seem like cheap toy cars to me. I was never on that short-loved bandwagon. I do not shed a tear now they are being thrown in the garbage heap.

Once they start charging money for charging the vehicles then the jig is up.

Tesla is rated as the safest car by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.

yeah maybe for the drivers lol. But not the rest of us poor saps who happens to be walking or driving near one. Or the poor passengers that are burned alive with the doors sealed shut. These things are death mobiles.

So many haters on this thread. Elon is revolting but we ordered a Tesla in September and it was delivered in March. We LOVE the car. My husband has been driving a Fiat 500e EV for the past few years, it’s tiny and the range is under 100 miles but it’s a great commuter car. We wanted to replace our 2011 Volvo with an EV we can road-trip with and the supercharger network can’t be beat. For the complaints of the “iPad” - there’s a button on the wheel you push to give voice commands to control the AC, wipers, etc. The car is amazing and Elon Musk sucks, but at this point Tesla has the best option for long range and good charging capabilities.

That Tesla IPad dashboard is dumb as fuck.

R253, have you actually used it?

What happens the power grid goes out in a hurricane or isolated events? Snow storms? Etc?

Emergency evacuations?

I'm seriously thinking of getting a Jaguar I-Pace when I'm done with my XF. It's the most attractive EV by far, and has a fabulous interior.

Tesla on fire!

How are they catching on fire so easily when they don’t contain any combustible fuel?

Another Tesla on fire!

Really? 15 mpg?

R255 asks: "What happens the power grid goes out in a hurricane or isolated events? Snow storms? Etc?"

When the power grid is down, all of the gas pumps are down. The last major outage we had (3 days) my electric car was fine, and I ended up offering rides to neighbors who couldn't get gas. We can "what if" all we want, but the truth is the in a serious disaster or longterm outage everyone will suffer.

[quote]How are they catching on fire so easily when they don’t contain any combustible fuel?

They don't, this is a pernicious myth. Teslas (and electric cars in general) actually catch fire much less often than gas-powered cars (MUCH less). They just get headlines and social media posts every time it happens, where gas-powered fires never make the news.

Hybrid vehicles: 3,474 fires per 100K sales

Gas vehicles: 1,529 fires per 100K sales

Electric vehicles: 25 fires per 100K sales

I have a Honda Clarity plug-in electric hybrid. I have a level-2 charger installed in my garage. It's a great combo. Zero range anxiety because I can just use gas on long trips. For commuting and daily errands, I never need to use gas. So far, I've used less than 20/gallons a year (mostly thanks to the pandemic and a reduction of long road trips).

It's a great car. Really high quality. Great Honda service and support. I've had it over 4 years now, and it still feels like new.

R264 You get NONE of the incentives though. Here that means using the bus lane on the highways, free public parking, free toll roads etc. You get none of that if you buy a hybrid.

I don't get any of that anyway. So no loss for me. I imagine the places where you get "incentives" like that are few and far between, and they'll be phased out over the next few years anyway.

I'd rather ride a bike than drive a Tesla.

How does one solve the “green transpiration” problem with the US being a massively spread out country with huge cities with sprawl and not enough mass transit options? Europe’s mass transit and bikes work because their cities are older and more densely compacted by far, as is the entirety of Europe. We just can’t do that for every city in the US or to get from one state to the next.

Driving a ton of Teslas won’t solve the problem.

*green transportation

Electric cars make no sense unless you live in a house that you have installed a battery charger. For apartment dwellers, non plug-in hybrids make a little sense, but that god awful expensive battery replacement makes for hellacious depreciation. By the time the battery needs to be replaced, the cost is close to the trade-in value of the car. Stick with a gas engine for the foreseeable future. I my opinion the battery replacement cost for all of these cars make them financial disasters.

Polestar from Volvo.

Your information is outdated, R270. EV batteries don't need to be replaced like flashlight batteries, and when the time comes to replace a cell you do it individually -not the entire battery pack.

In a time of cheap gas your argument about apartment dwellers might make financial sense, but even if you had to pay for every charge at your local public charger it would still cost less than gasoline. And now that many new EVs come with extended periods of free public charging it makes sense to consider an electric vehicle.

If you're rich enough, there's going to be an all-electric Range Rover for the 2024 model year. In the meantime, there are lots of hybrid varieties (petrol and diesel in Europe).

This is very cool.

R274 that IS cool. Great name too.

I’m leaning more hybrid right now, since I do a lot of country driving.

The Toyota Venza may be the best deal out there right now and the front isn’t that gaping maw other Toyotas have. The Corolla Cross is so frickin ugly.

We have Hyundais and Kias as fleet cars and as a rule they have terrible trouble past a certain mileage. I don’t know if I’d trust anything too advanced from the company. I mean, my friend’s Kia was one of the fiery ones and it burned into a Laffy Taffy.