Toronto

Charles Barkley says it's his favorite NBA city.

Please, don't try to act like Canadians are going to defend Toronto. We know it's a mess and we all hate it.

it got out of hand in the late 90s with uncontrolled sprawling... it faced many of the same physical and social problems as S.F did with the tech boom. . . which radically shifted the personality of the city and widened the income gaps... which caused the local govt to cater public interests to the trends of the poorest and the richest.

Because of the trans.

Their ideology is responsible for all the evils in the world so I just know they ruined Toronto too with their extreme ideology

r4

Beats me, OP, and I've lived in Toronto since 2001. It's a provincial backwater Victorian burg that was forced to become the most important city in Canada once the troubles in Quebec started in 1960s and all business relocated here from Montreal. And it's still almost impossible to buy a bottle of wine on a Good Friday, as I just realized yesterday.

The airport is a fucking nightmare. The security people handling your carry-ons are complete assholes. My ipad was left in the bag, so the guy threw a hissy fit, and put it all through x-ray again. Except he threw the contents everywhere, and I only back 3/4 of it. All my charge cables, gone. The had containers finally came through but there was one item at a time, bag came first.

Fuck Toronto. The rest of Canada doesn’t care about them or Quebec.

R2, it's less about defending it and more about explaining it. R8 I think has the key - it was forced into a broader social role that caused a lot of disruption. But given the sheer numbers involved (and the number of educated people), it's amazing that there has never been what looks like a master plan or even working guidelines for any of it.

San Francisco at its gungiest still inspires thoughts of "this place could be great if you..."

Toronto is such a visual disaster there's no clear way to imagine it as anything else.

R10 Still, no one in Canada gives a shit as to why Toronto is a mess.

Canadia is not a real country. It is part of us historically and by extension.

I just visited Toronto for the first time and want to ditto OP’s comments. Very strange city.

I had rewatched Blade Runner a few days prior to my visit and was surprised at the similarities- shining towers for the rich but grotesque urban decay at the street.

R13. What was strange about it? I've lived here for more than twenty years (because that's where the work is) but I have hated it more and more every year. I cannot wait to leave. The City is incompetent even for city government. They get big ideas and execute them so badly. Anything good that happens in Toronto happens in spite of the politicians.

Premier Ford personifies Toronto perfectly. He is their spirit animal.

Most of urban canada - excepting Montreal and Quebec City - is an ugly mess

When I visited in 2019, I was struck by how miserable and nasty the people were. And I live in NY so that’s saying a lot. It could have been the August heat, I don’t know, but the energy of the city was very off. You could feel the hostility. I mentioned this to a Canadian friend and she said “oh yes, the people in Toronto are rude, everyone knows that.” She said the rest of Canada feels about Toronto, the way that America feels about New York. She said if I hated Toronto, I would love Montreal - went to Montreal a few months later and she was right - I thought it was fantastic.

I did have some really great food in Toronto though and enjoyed the architecture of the houses in Little Portugal and around Trinity Bellwoods. Also loved the AGO.

Sounds like I moved out of the GTA at the right time; left 24 years ago and have no desire to go back

Calgary is the best city in Canada 🇨🇦

Toronto is a grind, so that may have been part of the nastiness. Even if you've got buckets of money getting around Toronto will drive you insane and, more, waste your time. But Torontonians are also a cold bunch on their best day (unless a team has won a championship), whose greatest delight is scolding one another for not thinking like you do. Plus, it's big without purpose, except commerce. Its biggest city in the country peers - New York, London, Paris... they have purpose and character. Toronto does not. It cannot compete and will never compete. The talent goes elsewhere but it doesn't stay here. Everything about Toronto is B team.

"So why is it such an ugly, tacky, incoherent mess? "

Because it's cold and snowy and that fucks everything up 😠

[...]

Montreal

There’s an insane amount of expensive condo skyscrapers being built there. Who lives in them? Is it foreign money like every other large city?

Montreal is wonderful.

Montreal has character and a gorgeous natural setting. It is also comparatively small and easy to navigate. Montreal was meant to be the biggest city and powerhouse in the country, the but separatists fucked it up and Toronto was runner up. Toronto is probably like Dallas... a sprawling city with little point other than it is required to exist.

I hate the huge highway that cuts most of the city off from the shore (not literally, but visually and maybe atmospherically).

Calling Toronto "the most important city in Canada" is like calling someone "the most fuckable chick at an STD clinic".

Even if the highway didn't, the high rises do. The lakeshore should have been developed thoughtfully, as a public space, but that's where the useless city government doesn't come in. They were all held in the thrall of Jane Jacobs for years but it amounted to fuck all and now they're trying to cram in it once its too late. The present mayor actually found some balls with a plan to toll highway users and then the premier cancelled it in an epically failed bid to save her ass in the election where she cratered her party from 58 seats to 7. Toronto politicians do a lot of talking. The left can create the most successful voting block when it can stop fighting amongst itself but despite that they get surprisingly little done for the people they claim to care about most. Public housing is a mess, shelters are a mess. They scream every year about taxes being too low but they never successfully make the case or create a coalition to get a tax increase that would let them do something other than talking. My councillor, the lefty's lefty, has been holding his seat for twelve years... I guess better to talk talk talk year over year and get re-elected for caring than actually do anything substantial.

Don’t they make a lot of movies there?

R31, yes. Pretty big film infrastructure, even classic studio buildings. The dollar almost always favours the U.S. and the skilled talent is present.

I went to Toronto a few years ago and I was shocked by how dead it was at night. I went expecting a big gay club and bar scene and there just wasn’t any, for such a big city. Montreal was fun though.

Same here OP i was told it's the best city in Canada and everything new york wasn't - in a good sense. Oy were they wrong.

I thought Gayopolis was in Toronto.

I've only ever been to the airport in Toronto for a flight connection, not into the city itself although I want to - though this thread is putting me off. I hate cities that are just cities because they are required to exist, like R27 says. I'm not a big city guy so if it doesn't have character and identity then I'm not interested. I guess next time I go to Canada I'll check out Montreal instead.

I have been surprised by Toronto's ethnic diversity which is reflected in the food scene

It is more like Chicago than NY-DC-Boston in that things are fairly spread out and not always as walkable as you might like.

It's unlike Chicago in that you can walk for fucking ever and never get to "the interesting part".

Chicago's Loop >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Central Toronto

It has a lot of pretty green space. Built around a ravine system If you like that kind of thing. But usually not a tourist attraction. I live on the edge of the city which suits me fine. I may make a move in the next few years. Right now I enjoy the access and having family in close proximity. I do agree it is not friendly. But a lot of Canadian cities are not friendly. Toronto specifically was founded and governed by a tightly knit group of puritanical elitist WASPs that are still around today and have their private clubs and galleries and no interest in investing in anything artistic for all classes to enjoy. . Add to that the big government push for multiculturalism and massive Asian and Middle East immigration that began in the 70’s and accelerated in the 90’s onward, and you have two separate worlds that will never intersect or mesh well together and barely understand each other or want to bother. Then, within the multicultural groups, you have areas that they have settled in and are not particularly friendly to others so no one else goes there and they don’t make appealing to tourists. The rest of us who might be affluent but don’t fit in either of those categories of multicultural or elite, are not accepted in them and get lost in the “in-between”. And that sucks. In US cities, the affluent non-elites have more presence, respect and power. Here they are lost in between or are champagne socialists that scream about woke causes to the point where art of any kind for arts sake is like a cardinal sin and not thought of for the tourism or just making a happier livable city. City council is both left wing and super elite which is bizarre. Nothing gets done. Urban planning is a disaster. You should see the eyesore a wealthy family is contributing to the waterfront that was recently announced - playgrounds and a pathway. Wow. Thanks.

There are so many “bread not circuses” whiners in Toronto that any imaginative / cutting edge avant-garde development ideas get stymied by the “we need to end poverty first” crowd. .

I will say there was a period in the early to mid 90’s where the theatre scene was on fire. Garth Drabinsky was literally transforming us into a major theatre capital and at one point we had more productions than london’s west end. Restaurants and glittery clubs followed suit. Major broadway productions tested out here. It was such a fun time. Those were heady days. Livent folded when Garth went to prison for I don’t recall what white collar crime. No one filled the gap he left. Never recovered.

Vancouver is way less friendly but has the outdoorsy appeal. That being said I know people that descended into depressions living there because of the snobbiness and the months on end of cloudy drizzle.

Montreal became stagnant. The people loving it so much on this thread are coming from a tourist perspective and only seeing it for a day or two or are proud Francophones . It has tourist appeal but zero appeal to live there. Honestly there is a bland quality to all Canadian cities. Halifax had none of the appeal that natives of there told me it would have. Big disappointment. I have been to most and live in one. The best places to live are the smaller spots like London Ontario, Guelph, etc etc. close enough for a visit to a major core but not stuck there.

If it is specifically a gay scene or nightlife then yes you need to be in one of the big three.

[quote]the smaller spots like London Ontario, Guelph, etc etc.

they always felt like endless souless parking lots, or sorry, parkades

R39 thank you - that’s interesting.

What about Vancouver? I’ve heard good things about it.

No one has mentioned the raccoon problem yet?

I will say the restaurants are pretty good. Not A+, but not less than A-.

I like the Dallas comparison. A horrible city that shouldn’t even exist - but was started and built in the late 20th century and just grew. Ugly, uninteresting and mean - but it’s where the jobs are. Not sure which one I would prefer tbh.

Less chance to get shot in the head in Toronto.

I lived in Toronto for years but my husband and I left in 2019 for the "Suburb" life. Toronto before it became ridiculously expensive was a great place to live IMO. I mean I grew up in a small town, so Toronto for me was like all the diversity and more fast paced way of life mixed with a town vibe. When you get out of the downtown core, Toronto never really feels super crowded. I think Toronto's lack of a coherent "vibe" stems partly from it's diversity and from the fact it wasn't designed to be Canada's economic hub. Toronto really only began to boom in the 70s when Quebec became hardcore about "cultural preservation" so most large companies moved their HQs to Toronto.

I never got why people compare it to American cities because Canada is a very different vibe than the US. We only have 34 million people here and over all Canadian cities are quieter, cleaner, and safer. They are not known for the bright lights and adventure.

Dreadfully dull. The downtown is filled with the worst urban renewal ever---dead block after dead block. The gay village also was surprisingly dull. It's long been more diverse than it seemed downtown but with horrendous time wasting traffic.

Before Montreal lost its business primacy, Toronto was compared to Cleveland (its better days, which was hen it settled into being a big small town) and Chicago (it's dull early post-WWII era). In some ways it's more like a giant version of Indy or Columbus with better public transportation.

[quote] The gay village also was surprisingly dull.

The gay village started dying out in mid-2000s when Canada legalized gay marriage. It was gradually rendered obsolete.

You’re right op it is really ugly. I feel like somebody planned on it becoming such a big deal it just did. The people from there are just as awful.

R8 here. As I said before, I've lived here for 20 years and I'm still shocked at the fact that the city is choking on its own vomit in terms of its (lack of) urban planning. The main streets through the city are perpetual mess, due to dubious repair work (i.e. someone in the city administration procuring shady contracts) and road closures which reduce a lot of main thoroughfares through the downtown to single lanes for weeks and months. Canada (and Ontario) doesn't have an equivalent of RICO laws so Toronto is a great place for dirty money to get laundered through expensive real estate. There are 40+ floor condo buildings with actual permanent occupancy lower than 50%, units bought by investors and arms dealers from China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Israel, Iran, and other places, which are paid for in cash. Strange dental offices owned by Iranian doctors at premium retail locations such as King & Spadina where I've never seen anybody walk in, not even receptionists at the front desk. TTC is one of the most expensive public transit systems in North America and wider (certainly more expensive than those in Tokyo and large parts of Western Europe) and it has 2.5 lines plus a number of barely reliable and inefficient bus and streetcar lines. Like many things in this city, it's run by organized crime-adjacent entities.

I disagree with the Dallas comparison because Dallas is a genuine frontier city, and Toronto is a gateway city built on a classic gateway city model - abutting a major body of navigable water & platted in a grid with a centrally located business district.

Toronto's weirdness I can only imagine has something to do with zoning and what appears to be ambivalence to its own architectural and historic heritage... that Yonge Street, such a major street linking downtown with midtown, is covered for long stretches with dilapidated two story buildings with fast food joints and seedy shops, was unimaginable to me... the zoning laws favor putting the 50+ storey residential towers midblock on transverse streets, is mindboggling to someone like me who is from Chicago where zoning keeps highrises in limited areas There are plenty of major lowrise commericial thoroughfares in Chicago where attention is paid to ensuring the historic character exists along new construction (Belmont Avenue, Fullerton Avenue, Armitage Avenue)... I don't know why Toronto just let Yonge Street go to seed like that.

Respectfully disagree with R49’s take on Montréal as someone who has lived in the city.

Loved every minute of living in Montreal - as did all my neighbours and friends. Some had the unfortunate experience of living in Toronto prior to moving to Montreal and shared their horror stories of life in Toronto. Toronto was often the butt of jokes as a result.

My time in Toronto (of months , thankfully not years), left me cold on multiple levels. I would agree that it is reminiscent of a larger Midwest US city such as Indy or Columbus rather than a Chicago or Dallas.

Toronto is a charmless, graceless place brimming with sterility and coldness. I’d be happy never to visit again.

^Disagree with bold R39’s [/bold] take on Montreal.

Apologies, R49.

I am a huge Toronto critic - best view is in your rearview mirror - but reports of the Village's demise are overblown. It is still there. The bars are largely still in tact and it chugs along. It is not much different than I remember from ten and ten times two years ago.

I was in the Village two days ago, it’s there and vomiting Progress Pride flags.

every city that's filled with progressive lefty twittish twats is a disaster. period.

^ but that's bascially every city.

jeffrey gayrey is a keebler elf!

I have lived in Toronto for 30 yrs. I would love to leave but can’t (family). Meghan Markle is the typical Torontonian: incredibly rude, delusional, and desperate (for those in the arts). Toronto tries desperately to be NYC and fails desperately. The people are savagely rude, impossible to befriend, and pretending to be big city hot shit. Every big intersection is constantly under construction. The only cultural things worth a damn have come from another metropolis. The arts people are totally 3rd rate. And there is always litter and trash wherever you go.

Toronto fucking sucks.

The stench of all those foreskins has affected the air quality in Toronto which has had a domino effect.

Hmm yes. Something you may notice, should you be in Canada enough - general incompetence is a big, big thing here, for profound and unchangeable social reasons, always has been, and this incompetence extends also to urban planning and related disciplines. Mediocrity rules here, and its rule is absolute.

I'm centre-left but after the pandemic I have had to accept that in Canada everything must be some combination of slow, complicated and expensive. I said upthread, Toronto in particular is home to many big ideas, all badly done.

I’m loving all these Toronto DLers and their honesty about how they don’t enjoy Toronto.

it's as canadian as possible. . . .

[quote] I hate the huge highway that cuts most of the city off from the shore (not literally, but visually and maybe atmospherically).

Yes that’s so terrible! I hate that about Toronto too!

It can't be much worse than Oslo, the ugliest capital in Europe.

I'm an American and I know, unfortunately, that Canada's politics and culture are being gradually sucked into the American slipstream, but I honestly never thought I'd hear their two major cities, Toronto and Vancouver, being characterized as unfriendly or unwelcoming. It goes against decades of common, usually correct, wisdom that Canadians are the better version of U.S. citizens. No more, eh?

This is quite depressing. I thought Canadian people were kinder as a whole, even after Rob Ford merged himself everywhere into Toronto society before he had the good grace to fuck off and die.

When I was in Toronto on vacation, my mother (who is in her 70s) was driving our rental car. She’s not a bad driver, but she goes a bit slow. The drivers were unbelievably rude and aggressive. One guy (white, middle aged, straight) rolled down his window and SCREAMED at my mother to “learn to fucking drive.” We were in traffic, there was nowhere to go, I forget what minor infraction she committed that led to his aggression but it was bizarre and a bit scary. The stereotype of polite Canadians was not very present in Toronto.

In Montreal, I found people to be very helpful and kind.

[Quote] Toronto is a charmless, graceless place brimming with sterility and coldness. I’d be happy never to visit again.

Torontonian here, born and raised. I've lived in several parts of the city until I just gave up in my 30s, moved to another large city and never looked back. This comment perfectly captures the steaming pile of garbage that is this cursed, uninteresting, unwelcoming and elitist fucking city. I hope the Russians nuke it to shit so we can start over like Chicago did after the fires.

I've traveled all over the US to most major American cities, and even Indianapolis is more interesting than Toronto.

Also, what the fuck is Drake's problem and why does he live here, bigging up the city like it's anything other than what's UNANIMOUSLY been described here. Go fuck yourself violently, Drake. You ain't shit, just like Toronto.

[Quote] This is quite depressing. I thought Canadian people were kinder as a whole

I dont get this myth or where it orginates from. Canadians are pure fucking miserable, unfriendly assholes and the further west you go the bigger they get (our version of deplorables). For example I too am an asshole. You would be too if you grew up in one of our cities with the notable exception of Montreal as others have stated.

Misery incarnate. And I hate my parents too for choosing this place when they came here in the 70s.

R69's story reminded me of this video I saw some time ago:

Honestly all North American cities are trash. Toronto is a very long way from the worst of them. I found the lakeside, islands and parts of the city centre pretty charming. Decent food and bars, and not completely terrible public transit as well

And as for comparing it to San Francisco – at least you can walk more than 2 yards without being harassed by a homeless person. Definite win for Toronto.

Weirdly, R68, we are better as a collective nation than as individuals. Despite everything, the majority still vote for the Liberals or the NDP, which is a pretty collective way of looking at things. But like everywhere, I sense a moderate drift - likely because the politicians we should vote for don't seem to talking about the things that matter in every day life. But Canada being Canada, it's a milder drift and dissent. Most Canadians, for example, did not support the trucker fuckers.

Drivers are rude and aggressive, R69. Sorry for that. I was probably one of them. Toronto council and Toronto traffic planning are engaged in a quiet campaign to "nudge" drivers out of cars on to what little transit exists, packed, limited and unreliable as it is. They've got the nudging underway but they've done fuck all to make the transition work. They just keep limiting options. They just expect everybody to share their vision and values. Doesn't always work that way but when you're NDP and know better than everybody, you don't spend much time thinking about how to sell your ideas because you can just get together with the rest of your NDP circle and shake your heads about how everybody else just doesn't get it.

This is the most clueless town. Anything good that's happened, anything cool or fun or creative or interesting has a strong tie to the private sector. The municipal government are all frustrated social workers. God, I hate living here and really look forward to selling up. It is a joyless town.

Rosedale is gorgeous.

Toronto spawned DL favorite Dan Levy.

Funny how these "butt ugly" cities such as Melbourne, Calgary, Brisbane and Toronto consistently top the world's most livable cities rankings. I wonder why beautiful homeless-infested SF and gangbanger central Chicago can't even crack the top 20?

There are many green and walkable neighborhoods, but the core has been sold off to developers (by the looks of it, to the lowest bidders) who put up whatever they want wherever they want, and, as many have noted, the city bailed long ago on any adequate strategy of urban planning.

I lived in Montreal for 20+ years - loved it but finally the winters and my poor French got to me.

Americans are much friendlier than Canadians. And Toronto is the very worst of Canada.

I've always thought it would be boring, compared to Montréal. But I've yet to visit either city.

Probably the single best anglophone city in Canada is Victoria. But it's not great either, still very WASP, otherwise sort of like a discount, disappointing California coastal city. Or like a mini Vancouver.

I hate to agree with people in this thread but... as someone who has lived in Toronto for 20 years, I have to say the last ten years have been a "grind" to quote a poster above. The only time I did enjoy living in Toronto was from March to May 2020 when nobody was going outside due to the pandemic. The city was so quiet, so clean and rewarding. Why? The nasty people of Toronto were not out and about.

I suppose Toronto has always been rude but in the last ten years, as others have said, it has become incredibly hostile and unpleasant. People seem to go out of their way to show you their hostility and unpleasantness. They're also very territorial and don't care about invading your personal space.

Perhaps this is due to how unaffordable Toronto has become. Landlords are doing everything to get long-term renting tenants out, there's so much construction and noise, the TTC is a mess and the lack of concrete plans for Toronto transit remains an ongoing issue.

There are also a lot of people with mental health problems wandering the streets. It's become very unsafe.

Where in Canada would people recommend Americans visit outside Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver? Seems like a dumb question, but would be interesting to get the perspective of the posters on this thread.

r62 has no idea how large but how unpopulated canada is.

some of the funniest folks on earth/in entertainment are from canada.

I’d visit the prairies, the northern territories, Atlantic Canada and Montreal. The rest is lame.

I also thought the huge influx of people from the UK would have made the people in Canada a bit like the British. I have heard they have impeccable manners. But in the past few decades at least there has been an awful lot of immigration from elsewhere, I know. People often talk about Canadians as if they're just like Americans, but I thought they had more class in general (or something). For instance, when I lived in England, I always got asked if I was from Canada, because of my mild nature, I guess. They were always surprised to hear that I was American.

Other than traffic, I find it's a grim, quiet fury. We're not brawling with each other.

Canada used to have more of a British feel to it. Marks & Spencers, Boots and WHSmith had stores there until the 90s or so. CBC showed Coronation Street every day (I think they still do). Britain used to have a more British feel to it too though. Everywhere has become more homogenized since the Internet came along.

Atlantic Canada is lovely, people are very friendly and it's a very liberal place, even at its most rural. Speaking from experience.

Calgary is the most livable city in Canada.

Calgary? Fucking yuck. The city is a conservative shithole consisting of maybe 4x4 city blocks which resemble something approximating a bland downtown while the rest is nondescript residential nothingness. Kind of like Ottawa, but without history or even minimal pseudo-sophisticated charm.

1. Vienna, Austria 2. Copenhagen, Denmark 3. Zurich, Switzerland 4. Calgary, Canada 5. Vancouver, Canada 6. Geneva, Switzerland 7. Frankfurt, Germany 8. Toronto, Canada 9. Amsterdam, Netherlands 10. Osaka, Japan and Melbourne, Australia (tie)

A lot of Canadian cities especially Vancouver have been ruined by rich foreigners. This includes euro trash so it’s not a racial thing. Rich people flocking to our cities hoarding housing and just being assholes.

Once Remington’s closed it was all downhill!

Well, it's no Thunder Bay, that's for sure.

We Canadians are the masters of passive aggressiveness. Maybe only second to Swiss, when it comes to the entire world. And Toronto is the ground zero for it in Canada.

Toronto is going to explode one day. The anger and hostility continue to rise.

Thinking of the Post-Covid Rage thread, the Rage in Toronto is palpable.

R45 “started in the late 20th century” ?????? Lolololololol

To each his own r54. I have lived in Montreal as well and it has the same cold, lacklustre qualities as toronro. People have been hanging in to that chic Montreal image garbage for way longer than the city has deserved. It’s the most depressing place on earth in the winters too, which are the most punishing I’ve ever encountered here it in Northern Europe.

If everywhere I have travelled the one city that reminds me most of Toronto is actually Frankfurt Germany. No good architecture ( in Frankfurt’s case it was destroyed in ww2), non descript modern yet dated looking buildings and ultimately it’s just a “work” city with zero character and people who don’t give a crap

Unfortunate for you r40 if that’s all you saw while passing through.

Doug Ford was their spirit animal

They loved this man. Need I say more.

Just take a look at what "Toronto Life" reports on. And I assure you that this is not some anomalous week or day when there are no real, serious issues to cover when it comes to what concerns those of us who live in Toronto. The main city mag is, essentially, a guide to mindless upper middle class consumption, real estate and food porn, and saying virtually nothing about cultural events in the city. (unless it's something Drake-related!) It very much captures the mentality of an average downtown dwelling Torontonian.

R68. All of Canadians cannot be judged by Toronto and Vancouver. Canadians are medium on the scale of being outgoing and high on the scale of politeness as a whole. But those two cities are very cold (and I’m not talking temperature). Drive 30 min outside the GTA and people are actually quite friendly. I went to grad school in London Ontario for 5 years and was so used to nods of acknowledgment or friendly hello’s to strangers just walking down the street. But when I would come “home” I was barely out of union station in Toronto and would have people rushing to cut me off while walking to a street corner where we all had to wait anyway, an old lady lose grip of her suitcase and people just watching her struggle until I went past about 10 people to help her, etc etc. and everyone looks miserable. It was real culture shock and London is only 2 hours away from Toronto.

Yet Toronto will claim that "downtown" Toronto HATES the Fords.

I don't buy it.

R70 while I appreciate the dislike of the city and agree with the critiques here, you wishing fellow posters death by nukes is a little extreme and your anger is a little over the top and creepy and disturbing. You’re angrier than any Torontonian thankfully. And I’ve lived here my whole life.

Downtown Toronto is too busy trying to get into some mediocre faddish Scandinavian-Korean poutine hotdog restaurant to care about such trivialities like which party is in power.

Why is Toronto so unhappy, though? Is everybody competing with each other? The skyrocketing prices are making people more competitive, more stressed, and angrier?

Every day when I leave my apartment, I can feel the tension in the air.

R89, rural Atlantic Canada is liberal? Are you kidding?

I spent 10 months last year in rural NS and had nothing but positive experiences everywhere: Lunenburg/Bridgewater area, New Glasgow, Cape Breton... Little rat's ass towns in Cape Breton and elsewhere we went had their share of Pride flags last June.

I'm an American (dual citizen now, as I became a Canadian several years ago) who has lived in Canada for over 15 years now (I met my now husband in college and we got married in Canada in 2006). I've lived in Toronto, Vancouver and now Ottawa (which I loath), and I'll just I'm thrilled to be in Canada and would never move back to the US.

So a couple things:

Canada is not a country known for its architecture. Outside of Quebec it's towers of glass and concrete.

Vancouver was beautiful but it's a very "outdoorsy" city (which I am not) but if your a person who loves that sort of thing, you'd love it...also the best authentic Asian cuisine in North America.

Toronto is a great city. It's not New York nor should it be compared to it. Yes, it's duller and quieter but I think the people who moan about are the people who would just be miserable anywhere. It's usually the people who've lived there all or most of their lives who hate it, but that seems to be true in most cities. I actually found Downtown Toronto the most boring part of the city. But there are ton of fantastic areas: The Danforth, College West, Lawrence Park, etc.

Canadians are more reserved than Americas but much I have found generally more fair, better educated, and more open minded and less brainwashed in terms of being patriotic. The American influence is strong here, but also anti-Americanism is also part of the culture too. Canadians believe theirs is a better country than the US (and they are right) but I found at first when I moved here, people were kind of suspicious of me in a "oh there's the American" kind of way. Also Canadians have a far better sense of humor, sorry humour, than Americans. Like the British, the can take the piss out of themselves and not be offended by it.

Rude people in big cities....paint me shocked!

10 months is nothing, R89. I'm not saying people aren't friendly or that they don't show outwardly liberal signs, but rural Nova Scotia is very conservative, especially when it comes to sex. Canadians can also be friendly to your face then rake you over the coals the moment you're out of earshot, Maritimers are no different in that regard.

R112 thank you for that perspective. I’m a Torontonian who has written a couple of the critiques here and you brought some good perspective back for me certainly and maybe a few others. Yours is probably the most balanced opinion . I do agree with you. Same with r113 lol.

R114 that’s not a Canadian specific trait at all. Welcome to the human race

Vancouver island and surrounding islands are beautiful but they’re being overrun with douchebags. Visit during the fall to avoid obnoxious tourists.

I'm Mad at Canada I Just returned from Guanajuato Mexico where Canadian Mining companies own the numerous silver mines surrounding the city. These companies or maybe just one company own virtually all of them.. The Companies have hired Mercenaries to shoot to kill And they do regularly the local poor as hell kids who sneak into the mining tunnels at night and steal like 30 dollars worth of silver. With total impunity. The Mercenaries are armed like solders and even have helicopters and armored cars to patrol the area. It is disgusting and Canadians should know this.

I lived in Toronto from 2005 to 2019. I feel like I arrived to Toronto right before it really started to shift away from kind "this where the outsiders comes to live," to the "Manhattan rich-elite" wannabe city it's become. I still like Toronto more than I dislike it, as R112 implies, in Toronto you have to kind of explore and get out there to find stuff, but is also depends on what your like to do too. Are Torontoians snobby? Yes kind of. But I find that true of any city I've lived in/visited. Big City people tend to think their more "with it" than smaller town folk. And yeah, Toronto has terrible infrastructure, but that's a problem across all of Ontario really.

I think living in a city has a very specific life cycle. You move there in your 20s with a ton of dreams kind of a "the world is my oyster" mentality. It's your first bout of freedom and your more willing to make concession in your lifestyle because this is the place you want to be. Then by your 30s, you're more settled, it feels hard to make new friends, your goals change and city life wears at your more than it does when you're younger. I moved away to a smaller city in 2019 because I was just feeling tired of the grind. The every increasing cost of living and I was unwilling to make cutback to the "creature comforts" I had grown accostomed to.

R118. That’s the very least of Mexicos problems! You’re hearing the perspective of some cabbie that took you back and forth to some resort.

I work for a multinational with a large production facility in Mexico. The Canadian head of that production facility was kidnapped going to work one morning. The company had to finally pay a ransom to get him out alive and without further injury beyond the horrors he did face. Didn’t read that in the news? It wasn’t in the news. And this shit happens all the time down there. Bring on the mercenaries to protect innocent expats.

We are talking about the city of Toronto so go take your whine and cheese elsewhere.

Go research the complete lawless chaos that is Mexico r118. Start a different thread where you will be pulverized for such a naïve perspective. Leave this one alone. Jesus. Reads a thread called Toronto and starts blathering about the poor sweet drug cartels that require that type of approach for expats to even survive and do some honest work in that corrupt economy.

R121 Good try, this has nothing to do with the cartels or expats honesty or dishonesty. The Naiveté is yours. I know mexico quite well. you mentioned the cartels not me. Unless of course you mean the Canadian mining cartels

FF r122. Again go start your own thread. Let’s see how you fare.

R123 No i like this one.

It’s interesting that Toronto had the imagination in the early 70’s to build the CN tower which for about 45 years was the tallest freestanding structure in the world. That kind of ambition would never happen these days.

Toronto is the poor man's version of Chicago.

Jealous of the American who married a Canadian and never has to come back to this hellscape again…

I was actually shocked by the number of homeless. As bad homelessness as a major American city.

Google Earth is great

Look at this mess. It’s awful for people on the ground. Totally dystopian.

Even a relatively sprawling American city like Atlanta has managed to keep their high rises zoned.

Even Houston, famous for no zoning, has avoided Toronto’s fate

Another city with runaway construction, Miami, is not too bad comparatively either

R97: why do you think it's going to explode? What's the driver?

R103 and R106: that's not entirely fair. In the provincial election last month Toronto proper (the city, the core, downtown) went entirely Liberal or NDP, which are the centre left or, for the hapless NDP, totally left, parties.

Crack Ford was a reaction to David Miller, the condescending, I've-got-great-hair, lefty leaning mayor who governed for the poor and basically nobody else. Lots of his ideas were probably good but like most people of his world view, he didn't think he had to sell anything, he preferred instead to gather the likeminded and look down his nose at everybody who didn't agree or didn't care as much. (I live in a part of town which has money. (I'm one of those buy the smallest house on a really good street so I don't have as much as my neighbours. But we are represented by the NDP. In the provincial election, they couldn't even be bothered to campaign here. Didn't even see a flyer. Which makes you feel really confident about who's representing you.) That indifference is probably the main distinction between left leaning and the centre. Miller's union loyalty demanded the purchase of new mass transit vehicles from a union shop in northern Ontario, which resulted in years of malfunction when they bothered to deliver. He also, toadying to the unions again, let a garbage strike run rampant that saw trash piled high in city parks in summer. You don't recover from that. You don't let it happen, either. When you fuck up on the big files that affect everybody, all your green roofs don't amount to much and start to look silly and tangential, even when they shouldn't.

I think Crack's brother was much the same thing - a reaction to Kathleen Wynne, who burned everybody out with her schemes. (I think she had a good heart but her background was school board... she simply didn't have a broad enough view of how the world works to effectively govern the biggest province in the country.) I am not sure why he won re-election except the other parties had weak or weary leaders and everybody was so tapped from COVID it was hard to get riled.

I'm a dual US/CDN citizen - my dad is American my mom is Canadian. I've in both NYC and Toronto and much prefer Toronto. Toronto is quieter, cleaner, safer, and for the most part, sanity prevails. I agree with the criticism that downtown Toronto is ugly but when you get out of the core, most of the older parts of the city are beautiful. Also Toronto has some of the best green spaces in North America. I love the ravines (there is like a crazy kind of artsy underground down there also apparently used to be quiet a hookup/party spot for gay men in the until the early 2000s), and also Toronto has the most diverse food scene in any major city I've ever been to or visited.

I'm not living in Halifax for work and it's meh. But as I was the republic fall, I ain't leaving Canada for nothing.

R134 is it worth visiting Halifax for a weekend? Can one get around without a car?

There should be zero tourism in Toronto. Why the fuck would anyone come here voluntarily?

Halifax merits a weekend but no more. And a car is good in Nova Scotia. Lots of beautiful small towns to see: Lunenburg, Shelbourne, Annapolis Royal, etc. Not to mention Cape Breton and the Cabot Trail

American citeis are a mess because states won't give them actual sovereignty.

Then they blame leftist "city governments" for the damage wrought by republican and rural state governments. (see Michigan)

R100 nails it with the comparison to Frankfurt. Both are the largest cities in their respective countries, the major economic centres and transport hubs, yet they have a soulless feel and are places to live and work. Both offer little appeal to outsiders to visit and are overshadowed by other more vibrant cities in this respect (Montréal and Berlin).

Berlin is the largest city in Germany. Frankfurt is like sixth.

Soulless is a nice description for Toronto. Places have a psychological topography :which is just as significant as the physical climate and flora and fauna of any locale.

There are those who will claim, “but it has nice parks”; or “once you leave the city, it’s great!”. This in itself speaks volumes.

Some are more attune to the subtleties of places; while others remain obtuse......or drawn to soulless places for their own reasons.

The only US city where I have seen the same dichotomy of dilapidated lowrise structures besides new towers is Atlanta, which, upon reflection, could probably be likened as the most similar city in the US to Toronto. (Particularly in the area of puffery.). Atlanta and Toronto both sprawl up from a financial district to a premium retail district (Buckhead and Yorkville) in the same South-North pattern; they both have odd placement of cultural centers; they both have massive stadiums dominating the skylines. Oddly both are centers of runaway film production and often stand in for someplace else.

Frankfurt seems apt. I've usually just changed planes there but when I had a long layover to explore, it seemed lifeless, but "modern" like Toronto.

I was talking to a friend the other day and we both agreed, it's time to leave. Getting around is so slow and inefficient. Toronto is a waste of precious time.

Atlanta is awful in different ways from Toronto---Toronto has a more functional downtown and mass transit system. The only real density in Atlanta is in Buckhead; otherwise the city is built up at streetcar densities like most central cities. Toronto's suburbs aren't as sprawly because the lots are smaller. Atlanta's tiresome boosterism and defensiveness is limitless and beyond anything outside of of some other sunbelt dystopias. The cluelessness of the people also is more striking. Toronto is closer to Columbus or Indianapolis, although with functional mass transit and bigger more viable downtowns.

What are the bad neighborhoods in Toronto? Are there any? Where do the wealthy people tend to live? Can someone please do us a service and breakdown the specific neighborhoods/inhabitants?

R103

For real? I thought this was a Chris Farley skit.

[quote] Atlanta is awful in different ways from Toronto---Toronto has a more functional downtown and mass transit system. The only real density in Atlanta is in Buckhead; otherwise the city is built up at streetcar densities like most central cities. Toronto's suburbs aren't as sprawly because the lots are smaller. Atlanta's tiresome boosterism and defensiveness is limitless and beyond anything outside of of some other sunbelt dystopias. The cluelessness of the people also is more striking. Toronto is closer to Columbus or Indianapolis, although with functional mass transit and bigger more viable downtowns.

Would second this. A US comparison with Indy is apt. The seething, repressive mask that citizens don is similar in both cities. (Am thinking of Mike Pence-like individuals.)

R147, first, define wealthy.

The NW of the city is generally what would pass for a bad neighbourhood in that it is a lot of low income people living in highrises and underserviced neighbourhoods.

There are sketchy sections downtown but not violent... just homeless and drug addicts lingering near what services there are for them. Sherbourne St. is a good example, particularly between Adelaide and Gerrard. It's probably the worst but it is measured in maybe ten blocks? There's another pocket, I think, in the west end. Don't know where.

The truly wealthy live in Rosedale and Forest Hill, Moore Park, Deer Park and Lawrence Park. But anybody who has a house in the core is doing pretty well.

Those aare fighting words since people in Toronto think Atlanta stole "their" Olympics through bribery. Which they would have done, if they had the money, but Atlanta in 1989 was a smallish city of 1.6 million urbanized with no public support for the Olympics and no particular private support either. Indeed, they spent more on each of the last two stadiums than they spent hosting the Olympics, which tells you how far Atlanta has come since 1996. Back then Toronto was a big world-class city and Atlanta was Fatt Matt's rib shack and hominy grits. Today they are comparably sized.

I was waiting for an Atlanta shoutout. It’s probably the most universally reviled city on DL next to Toronto. After reading this thread Toronto actually seems more despised. Dallas would be the third most hated. If I had to choose between them I’d pick Toronto since it feels more like an actual city, is on a large body of water, and isn’t in the South of the USA.

[quote]Those aare fighting words since people in Toronto think Atlanta stole "their" Olympics through bribery.

Are they? Every time we don't get an Olympics, I'm relieved. Everything's bad enough as it is. Can you imagine Toronto planning an Olympic games? John Tory would insist on being the star of the organizing panel, as if he did it all single handedly. Mike Layton would whine about bread, not circuses. The TTC would probably strike. The humidity would probably be lethal.

OP, I believe Toronto started booming in the 60s and 70s. Not exactly a great time for architecture.

The Olympics would kill Toronto.

John Tory is such an ineffective mayor.

For what it;s worth, Tornoto men are by far the coldest/most hesitant men I have encountered on Scruff. If they reciprocate, it's like they always want you to make the first move. Montreal men are completely the opposite.

And that's why there's more monkeypox on Monkeyal. In Toronto, you really gotta work for it.

Montreal men are way hotter than Toronto men so I"m not going to work for the attention of Toronto men when I can get someone hotter in Montreal.

Canada and the United States made a huge mistake in redesigning their cities to be ultra car friendly.

Actually weren’t the 1996 Olympics widely expected to go to Athens for the centennial prestige, not Toronto? (Yes Atlanta bribed the IOC). I remember Toronto trying very hard for 2008 which went to Beijing.

Never mind they did bid for 1996 (their fourth losing bid.)

But can you imagine a Toronto Olympics? The marathon would probably be down Yonge street past the homeless. The Olympic village would be a ninety story tower so it could be converted to condos afterwards.

Regarding ugly buildings from the 60s and 70s, I did notice a higher than average proportion of brutalist monstrosities, but I thought that may have been due to the central location of the University of Toronto. Even Harvard and Yale built these ugly giant buildings in that era.

The 60s and 70s really were the absolute nadir for architecture. It's crazy to think people thought those builidings looked good. Or maybe that was the whole point to them. They probably felt the whole notion of "good taste" was bourgeois or something so they were trying to go against that. I'll take bourgeoise any day.

I was also surprised that some of the city’s premiere luxury shops were in this monstrosity from the sixties called The Colonnade. Any other city would have torn this down by now if it were in the heart of the luxury district.

Toronto has also given itself a dumbass nickname like Atlanta. They’re T dot and there’s Hotlanta.

I only visited Toronto once as a five year old. Even then o thought it was gross and tacky. Also my cunt yuppie aunt lives there and loves it.

Wow, 167 replies and no one has dug up this old quote yet:

[italic]New York run by the Swiss [/italic] – a take on Peter Ustinov’s oft-quoted reference of the city to reporter John Bentley Mays in The Globe and Mail on 1 August 1987:

“Toronto is a kind of New York operated by the Swiss.”

When reminded of this later at a reception in June 1992, he responded (again cited in The Globe), “I’ve learned it’s really run by the Canadians.”

That quote was always too complementary.

It’s more like San Francisco run by people from northern Wisconsin.

R169, minus the hills and the bridges and the...well, actually, it's not much like San Francisco, regardless of who was running it.

It's got Buffalo's roads, LA's traffic, IKEA's design aesthetic, a suburban mall's energy and a city council full of thwarted social workers. It is essentially the bastard baby of Soviet and Hong Kong, after handover. The best view of Toronto i from a departing plane.

Can you tell us about any encounters with or gossip about Canadian celebrities in Toronto?

“Back then Toronto was a big world-class city and Atlanta was Fatt Matt's rib shack and hominy grits. Today they are comparably sized.”

R151 - do you just shoot opinions out of your arse pretending they are facts? You can fit about 5 populations of Atlanta’s inside Toronto and have room to spare.

Behold the most recent annual ranking of largest cities in North America.

R163. The only library in the world that resembles a Turkey.

turkey 🦃

That library is actually a perfect example of most city or government buildings in Toronto that are imaginatively build ….using only poured concrete.

The population of the metropolitan regions of Atlanta and Toronto is almost identical (6.3mm to 6.2mm). No one would reasonably compare the population within city limits, given that Toronto is a consolidated city and Atlanta is notoriously small.

😂 apparently they do. If you want to add outside of city limits including Georgia swampland though, go ahead. I will stick to official measures that are published and constantly referenced

Built not build ^

Toronto is probably the city they’re talking about in this shitty song

R180, most of us love that classic '80s song. SUCK IT. 🍆

R180 that’s San Francisco

Toronto is Chicago as run by a bunch of stupid Drake fans who are convinced they are more British than American. A city with an identity crisis.

I wondered the same thing 20 years ago and concluded it's the harsh weather beating everything up.

R183 trust me there aren’t many people left who think they are remotely British

I stand behind my San Francisco comparison

Yonge Street reminds me exactly of Market Street between the Ferry Building and City Hall

Except with worse architecture

There is no way Yonge Street looks anything at all like Market Street, so what else reminded you of it, R186?

Run down

Streetcar wires

Full of Asians

Toronto always makes me think of Schitt's Creek.

Streetcars don’t run on Yonge street

They run across it

I live here.

I would never recommend anyone come here as a tourist, it’s just not a great town for getting around (traffic, not the greatest subway coverage) and there’s nothing world class to see here unless you are a huge sports fan.

At the same time although I hated it here initially I now like it. It takes a long time to figure out. People are much nicer than the rest of Canada gives them credit for, they are mostly just reserved.

I also appreciate the crazy levels of diversity having grown up in a super white small town.

Toronto mascot

Who is that person?

Margaret Trudeau, Rose.

This account shows some beautiful Toronto architecture

Thanks for that link r196

I thought many of the Victorian facades on Yonge street would be quite beautiful if they were restored

Toronto is essentially a Victorian city with some great Queen Anne and Richardsonian Romanesque survivors, but it seems very little went it to preserving them in the central core outside of Old City Hall and the Legislature

Ok, since Remington's closed, is there anything else like it now in Toronto? Or do I need to go to Montreal?

There was a massive fire in the early years of settlement. A lot disappeared from that.

There was massive indifference in the later years of settlement. The rest disappeared then.

I live in Toronto. If you never step foot here in your entire life, you won’t have missed a thing.

^ Duly seconded. I just came back from scouting a place in the country. Get me the fuck out of here.

Shove it r200

R203, are you actually telling me that during the 1970s and 1980s and, in fact, up until now, the CBD of Toronto did not shed historic buildings faster than any North American city not actually on fire?

No I’m telling you you are a sarcastic prick.

Feel free to post a board where "sarcastic prick" is not the going deal, R205.

May I suggest chickensoupforthesoulandoranalprolapse.com

A big small town that had its moments but now officially sucks. The people of North Toronto are demon spawn. Eg: Faith Goldy

Calgary is the best city in Canada

What, no love for Hamilton (Ontario)?

When Toronto became too expensive, people moved to Hamilton.

Thus, spoiling Hamilton.

Toronto people are cold, rude, and third rate. Calling Toronto a world-class city is essentially a huge con job.

^ Agreed. And I'm a Torontonian.

The people in Toronto were nice when i was there.

Didn't make this ranking.

Though in fairness neither did most cities you'd recognize at a glance. No New York, London, Paris, Rome, LA....

R72 Some people just don't like cities.

Only in Toronto