Behind The Scenes Of "Hello, Dolly!"

I bet you 50 bucks that Babs vetoed that Trisha Noble.

Seeing those two on screen together would not have been flattering to Babs.

News flash, Barbra Streisand didn't have the power. The thought that a new actress could have such control over William Wyler and Gene Kelly is ridiculous.

How in holy fuck were JoAnn Worley and Sandy Duncan NOT cast??? Also give Irene Malloy to Sally Ann Howes.

Is Dolly supposed to be Jewish (Levi)?

Sandy Duncan was perfect in her audition.

Dolly's full name is Dolly Gallagher Levi, and in the original musical (and the Thornton Wilder play it is based on) she's supposed to be a child of Irish immigrants who married a Jew and is now his widow.

Who cares what she was supposed to be (Irish) or that she was too young. Does anyone really think any other entertainer (uh Carol Channing) would prove over the decades in fact to be close to the fire engine of talent that Streisand was in the film (let’s face it, Hello Dolly is a farce) or sing the music even remotely as well. You cannot take your eyes off her and when she sings she becomes anything she wants you to believe. Only one other entertainer has had this much talent and charisma for this type of film.

I'm surprised Sandy Duncan was not cast. Maybe she needed to cut back just a little, but she really lights up the scene. She came across like a star.

I thought Jo Anne Worley was pretty dreadful.

Ron Rifkin was turning his scene into a kitchen sink drama.

[quote] The thought that a new actress could have such control...

On what date was Babs anointed with her Academy Award, R2?

[quote] Only one other entertainer has had this much talent and charisma for this type of film.

Susan Hayward?

The OP's video doesn't discuss the casting of Michael Crawford.

I remember reading they filmed in upstate NY in the middle of a boiling hot summer, in all those heavy clothes.

Babs totally unbalances this small comedy. The movie is overblown and lopsided.

Danny Lockin was such a doll.

[quote] How in holy fuck were JoAnn Worley … NOT cast??

Because you can see her in the video rolling her eyes like a vulgar burlesque Jolson or Cantor.

Did this movie have an ending?

Did everyone just catch that train back to mediocrity in Yonkers?

Trisha Noble makes a lot of impact in that audition. Maybe too vivacious? She died of cancer recently. She had a tiny role as Natalie Portman's mother in the Star Wars reboot.

[Quote] when she sings she becomes anything she wants you to believe.

Nonsense. Streisand is always Streisand.

Walter Mathau had disdain for Streisand. He is famously quoted as telling Barbra that she "had no more talent than a butterfly's fart".

We all know that she can sing. It was another case of an Actor clashing with a Star.

[quote] Maybe too vivacious?

Indubitably!

An audience member looking up at that giant cinema screen would be shocked at seeing a fairly-attractive woman with a well-proportioned head on one side of the screen. And Babs' ill-proportioned, ill-matched, ill-sized features on the other.

MIA is Ann Margret’s screen test

It seems odd that Ann-Margret would even screen test. Was someone like Doris Day expected to play Dolly at that point?

I saw a quote from Gene Hackman recently where he said Streisand was basically not an actor.

Jo Anne Worley was Channing's original standby in the first production of Dolly. She left as soon as her contract was up. Channing never missed and she got bored with the job pretty quickly.

Babs wasn't an actress, she was a star.

[quote] Who cares what she was supposed to be (Irish) or that she was too young. Does anyone really think any other entertainer (uh Carol Channing) would prove over the decades in fact to be close to the fire engine of talent that Streisand was in the film (let’s face it, Hello Dolly is a farce) or sing the music even remotely as well. You cannot take your eyes off her and when she sings she becomes anything she wants you to believe.

DOWN, Mary!

Or we'll have to sedate you!

Didn't Tovah play Dolly as Irish?

I fucked all of them..

Yes, r27, and Tovah claimed she was the first person ever to play the part with a brogue. But Yvonne De Carlo had done that quite charmingly years earlier.

Did Toni Lamond have to follow Yvonne's lead?

R30 We know Aussie Trisha Noble but we don't know Aussie Toni Lamond .

Toni was Yvonne's understudy in Dolly.

I had the soundtrack for years, but didn't see the movie until summer 2019 when it was shown in theaters during one of the Fathom events. Quite frankly, it was thrilling to see on the big screen, and Streisand and Matthau are equally entertaining. Streisand was perfect in the role, and at the peak of her comic skills and voice. Gene Kelly's direction was a throwback to the old MGM style, especially in some of the bigger musical production numbers. The parade sequence alone was spectacular, with Streisand's stunning vocal delivery. Best time I had at the movies in a long time.

It was considered a hoary old stinker on its release, and killed movie musicals for over a decade.

What about "On a Clear Day..."?

Part of the reason 20th Century went bankrupt,- Barbra was wrong, Walter was wrong, and despite Patricia Ward Kelly's revisionist history Gene HATED Barbra. HATED.

Who could have made it a hit, though? Doris Day was being demoted to TV. Shirley was box office poison.

[quote] when she sings she becomes anything she wants you to believe.... Nonsense. Streisand is always Streisand.

Too bad THAT didn't work out for her.

[quote] Best time I had at the movies in a long time.

Pssst, this is DL, you're not supposed to like anything, or at least admit it.

[quote] you're not supposed to like anything, or at least admit it.

I liked that bit when Babs has Dolly Levi do that Mae West impression which annoyed Mae.

[quote] And on those cold winter nights, Horace, you can snuggle up to your cash register. It's a little lumpy, but it rings!

[quote]Part of the reason 20th Century went bankrupt,- Barbra was wrong, Walter was wrong, and despite Patricia Ward Kelly's revisionist history Gene HATED Barbra. HATED.

You're confusing "Hello Dolly" with the fiasco "Cleopatra". "Hello Dolly" came after "The Sound Of Music money. "Dolly" still played Roadshow, and in theaters for two years, and Fox made money with the NY back lot streets by other studios.

Some of the the most famous movie artwork was done by artist Richard Amsel. 20th Century Fox held a contest and the 22 year old illustrator won and his work became his first of many iconic movie posters.

Here he is as an interviewee on the pioneering cable TV show "The Emerald City."

R41 I guess he was gay.

Do you know what else Amsel did the poster for?

The point is: it's not a good musical. The book is terrible - hammy and boring and incredibly hoary, while there is basically only one memorable song. The fact this piece of rank ham was competing with HAIR!, for fucks sake, shows how dire the situation was. You could also argue that the talky parts of Hello Dolly brought out in Babs the aspect that possibly grated with Middle America – a too-raucous, abrasive and vulgar NooYork Jewishness. When she simply sang, that's what it liked.

By the time My Fair Lady came to the screen it was in the same situation: another musical with a boring book, but at least a few more good songs. However, it was only saved because Audrey Hepburn was young and charming, and because of the Ascot scene and Beaton's costumes and Rex Harrison. You could ditch the rest.

[quote] there is basically only one memorable song.

Sweetie, we are talking "Hello Dolly", with "Before The Parade Passes By", "It Only Takes A Moment", "Elegance", "Hello, Dolly!", not some Sondheim show.

[quote]News flash, Barbra Streisand didn't have the power. The thought that a new actress could have such control over William Wyler and Gene Kelly is ridiculous.

It's common knowledge that Barbra walked all over Wyler on Funny Girl. Willie's famous quip telling people to go easy on Barbra because this was the first picture she ever directed for one thing.

Gene and her didn't get along, because she would call Kelly late at night, wanting to spend several hours on the phone going over the days shoot. Gene refused and pissed her off. Matthau detested her as well, but they made up years later.

Being a pain in the ass and having control of the project is two very different things.

An A list star has some amount of control over a movie. Funny Girl was her movie. She was signed to a five-picture deal without having to do so much as a screen test. Almost unheard of in those days. Streisand made it in movies before she filmed a single take. Don't think she wasn't allowed some input into the picture and had the studio's backing to do so.

Those battles are documented in numerous books about her, so I get why want to refute stuff that is so well known.

Please, Barbra. Barbra, please.

Nobody ever walked over William Wyler. And what he said was that FG was the first film she had ever tried to direct.

[Quote]How in holy fuck were JoAnn Worley and Sandy Duncan NOT cast???

R3 Well, Jo Anne Worley did play the Long Beach, CA version of Dolly back in 1982. Robert Osborne said she was good, so there's that.

As mentioned above, Jo Anne was Carol's first standby in the original production but left after a year because Carol never, ever missed a performance.

Even though she was far too young for the role, Barbra was amusing. No, she's not much of an actress, but she does have that star quality.

"All of the actors did their own singing, except for Marianne McAndrew (Irene Molloy) whose singing was dubbed by Melissa Stafford for Irene's vocal solos and Gilda Maiken for when Irene sings with other characters."

Oh..

You, r44, are an idiot.

I stand so embarrassed and corrected.

Lots of info here. I think Streisand was strangely just the right choice for the time, because youth was big in the 60s and nobody wanted to see some old lady croaking the tunes. Her performance is Fanny Brice/Mae West/Rosalind Russell, but her amazing voice made the soundtrack memorable (though it incredibly only peaked at 49 on the Billboard charts).

The "new" song written for Streisand, Love Is Only Love, was actually written for Angela in Mame but cut in rehearsals. I prefer Angela's more delicate, nuanced version to Barbra's overbroad caterwauling.

[Quote] youth was big in the 60s

Streisand mostly couldn't get arrested on the Hot 100. She was not a youth recording artist. She was old school show business. She hadn't worked with Richard Perry yet.

Jo Ann Worley was the standby for Carol Channing? She was only 27 years old in 1964 and unknown.

Wasn't Julie's standby in Victor/Victoria in her twenties?

There should be a Tony award for best poster, and Amsel should have won it for "Follies". 11/10

[quote]Jo Ann Worley was the standby for Carol Channing? She was only 27 years old in 1964 and unknown.

Yes, r61, it's listed on the page below at IBDB. But that wasn't even my source.

[Quote] There should be a Tony award for best poster, and Amsel should have won it for "Follies". 11/10

Are you making a little joke?

All you had to do with Jo Ann Worley was watch her for 5 minutes on Laugh-In and you saw her entire shtick.

I saw her in Pirates of Penzance and I kept waiting for Ruth Buzzi and Judy Carne to show up.

Anne Runolfsson, r62...

They were *not* going to allow Mrs. Molloy to sound like this...

Young Jane Romano stood by for Merman in GYPSY. And then she died.

If people were paranoid about the women cast in a Streisand picture, why was Madeline Kahn cast in "What's Up, Doc?" And why wasn't her part cut to ribbons?

Gower Champion deliberately cast against type when he cast Eileen Brennan and Charles Nelson Reilly as the ingenue and young leading man in Dolly. It wasn't what Herman had intended and he disapproved.

Well, Shirley is quite a snappy ingenue in The Matchmaker, r71.

[quote] If people were paranoid about the women cast in a Streisand picture

No it was Babs who was paranoid.

She did not want to share the screen and be upstaged by a woman playing Irene Molloy who was more desirable and with more REGULAR facial features.

Trish is leaving...

Dolly Gallagher Levi was a nice middle-aged maternal empathetic woman who knew how to listen and who brought people together.

Madam Streisand did not fit the character.

Booth and Paul Ford are both wonderful in The Matchmaker and the best way to enjoy Dolly on film is to watch that and then listen to Channing's or Martin's cast albums.

I enjoy Miss Marilyn Maye.

[quote] "I guess he was gay."

He was, R43. He died of AIDS at age 37, in 1985. I'm not quite sure if that was meant sarcastically or not, but I can always talk about Amsel and his beautiful work.

I forgot what a pretty song is "Ribbons Down My Back".

[quote]I thought Jo Anne Worley was pretty dreadful.

She was too hammy and broad.

Sandy Duncan, on the other hand, was very good.

Trisha has such a deep voice at r74. I guess they sped up her vocals below.

R74 Patsy Ann Noble is trying to replicate Dolly Parton.

R81 Patsy Ann Noble is trying to replicate Little Millie who was Jamaican and created a sensation in 1964 with this —

That "Accidents Will Happen" song is from 1963, dear. Millie was not yet a blip on the pop charts.

Debbie Reynolds or Doris Day would have been great as Dolly and a better age for the part.

Barbra is fine, though, and in great voice. The real issue is Kelly's directing. Those dance scenes just go on and on and on: Jesus, how much footage do we need of the dancing waiters? If the dance sequences had been cut back to something bearable--and the dud song "Love Is Only Love" cut altogether--the film would have been a much more manageable length.

I'd have cut "Ribbons Down My Back," too. The actress playing Irene wasn't a strong singer, and we already know she's a gold-digger from her conversation with Minnie.

Cut the extended dance sequences with nameless extras that accompany "Put On Your Sunday Clothes," "Dancin," and "Hello, Dolly!" and the film would have had more zip.

R85 Marianne McAndrew was dubbed actually

Yeesh, they should have found a better vocal stand-in, then.

Over Barbra's dead body!

Barbra should have showed her clit.

Barbra was and is the cuntiest cunt who ever cunted. (And I’m sorry if I offended her son, Jason who is probably a Datalounge contributor)

I'm sure Jason knows that.

Right on R90!

I feel like a faggot.

[quote] If the dance sequences had been cut back to something bearable--and the dud song "Love Is Only Love" cut altogether--the film would have been a much more manageable length.

I thought that was a beautiful and important song. It was the only thing that (barely) made sense of Dolly's attraction to thoroughly unpleasant Horace. She wasn't in love, just being practical.

But I agree with others, the constant dancing in stupid songs like "Put On Your Sunday Clothes" (which did nothing to move the plot), needed to be severely trimmed.

[quote]stupid songs like"Put On Your Sunday Clothes" (which did nothing to move the plot)

How many musical comedy songs actually "move the plot", r94? It's an anticipation song about what's to come and it builds. And, indeed, it *does* move the plot from Yonkers to NYC. Not "stupid" at all.

[quote]If people were paranoid about the women cast in a Streisand picture, why was Madeline Kahn cast in "What's Up, Doc?" And why wasn't her part cut to ribbons?

Barbra hated What's Up Doc? to begin with. She thought it was a piece of garbage that nobody would go and see. But she wasn't happy with the attention Kahn was getting and didn't say two words to her on the set.

When it became a hit, she washed her hands of it. She's spoken about the movie all but a handful of times since then.

[Quote] But she wasn't happy with the attention Kahn was getting and didn't say two words to her on the set.

Not true. Kahn said that Streisand gave her advice after a take, which Kahn appreciated.

Yes, the film is poorly directed.

And the sets, the costumes...it all looks so overblown and over stuffed.

I wish it had been done with more artifice like "Singing in the Rain" or "Guys and Dolls". The material indicates that.

[quote]stupid songs like "Put On Your Sunday Clothes"

It's a thrilling song. A gorgeous big-time Broadway melody. Listen to it here:

I'm not mistaken. Dolly was a flop. Look up the numbers.

Dolly and Paint Your Wagon made the big Hollywood musical look creaky and over in 1969. The genre was pretty much dead until Fosse resurrected it in a very different form with Cabaret a few years later. All of the successful movie musicals since that time (not counting Disney which is its own creature) follow the post-modern Fosse formula.

For all the cries of Streisand being too young, people seem to forget that in the time period the movie is based in, it was not uncommon for women to marry MUCH older men. Their wives would die, and they would marry younger women. So Streisand WAS NOT too young to play Dolly. In context, she was spot on. Just because the role was originated by an older woman does not make her portrayal any less relevant.

That marriage template was embodied by Irene Malloy, who wouldn't have been older than early 20s. Dolly was a widow who had a full first marriage and then made it on her own for some years before deciding to snag the wealthy Horace and retire. She should be at least mid-30s.

In the late 60's, movie musicals were dead and no one wanted to see them. Films like this and Sweet Charity were dated before they even arrived, which is a shame because they're both very good in their own ways. Years later, it's become easier to appreciate them for what they are rather than what they weren't at the time. Audiences had a taste of more realistic and gritty stories and they wanted those, not splashy big budget musicals.

It's also a shame Streisand doesn't appreciate What's Up Doc? It's one of her best performances and one of her few films that's genuinely good and fun to watch. Her commentary on the DVD is hilariously inept. She's clearly forgotten everything about the movie and sounds like she'd rather be anywhere else. Considering how much she seems to hate doing things like that, I wonder how they persuaded her into doing that. It's not even a full commentary - just a few scenes.

Take it up with Thornton, r101. Can you *really* picture Barbra as a dried oak leaf?

[quote]In the late 60's, movie musicals were dead and no one wanted to see them.

Thoroughly Modern Millie was the 11th highest grossing film of 1967.

Camelot was the 12th highest grossing film of 1967.

Funny Girl was the highest grossing film of 1968.

Hello Dolly was the 5th highest grossing film of 1969.

Paint Your Wagon was the 7th highest grossing film of 1969.

[quote]Audiences had a taste of more realistic and gritty stories

Love Story was the highest grossing film of 1970.

Fiddler on the Roof was the 2nd highest grossing film of 1971.

And achieved that without stars, r106. Dolly was BIG and SPLASHY and BARBRA!...and managed to lose the heart and charm of the show.

The problem with the musicals mentioned is that they were OVER produced.

[quote]It's also a shame Streisand doesn't appreciate What's Up Doc? It's one of her best performances and one of her few films that's genuinely good and fun to watch. Her commentary on the DVD is hilariously inept. She's clearly forgotten everything about the movie and sounds like she'd rather be anywhere else. Considering how much she seems to hate doing things like that, I wonder how they persuaded her into doing that. It's not even a full commentary - just a few scenes.

You people make shit up. She did the commentary because she wanted to. And this bit where YOU watch a movie a hundred times so she's supposed to remember something she did 30 years for a minute of screen time is ridiculous. Not all stars are Norma Desmond who spend their days watching their work. Many actors don't give their work another moment of thought the last second of the last interview promoting it. She hadn't seen it in years but did talk about the production and did seems to enjoy re-visiting it.

R109 It was the most pathetic and worthless DVD commentary in the history of DVD commentaries. It was also the shortest.

There just was no point to it.

[quote]For all the cries of Streisand being too young, people seem to forget that in the time period the movie is based in, it was not uncommon for women to marry MUCH older men. Their wives would die, and they would marry younger women. So Streisand WAS NOT too young to play Dolly. In context, she was spot on.

I get that you're a starry-eyed fan, but that's just foolish.

Dolly supposedly had a full life with her husband and has been single and pining for him for a long time.

So Streisand's age made no sense. Even she knew that.

Burnett & Bailey

Rona has the scoop.

From...

Was Channing not even considered? She was coming off a recent Oscar nod and she was a star that was identified with the musical so there was a built in audience for it.

No, r115, her Dolly screen test (Millie) proved she wouldn't pass muster for the expensive Dolly. Judy Holliday's screen test for Born Yesterday (Adam's Rib) was more successful.

This video feature fails to mention that Marianne McAndrew did not do her own singing in the film, and it implies that she did.

Was Julie Andrews ever considered?

The movie is really terrible. Though ironically, Matthau and Babs have good chemistry together.

Still - it’s wretchedly boring and unfunny.

*ahem* I love this film.

Shirley Booth was 60 when she did the matchmaker and Channing was 42 and the women that played dolly in touring productions were age appropriate (pearl bailey, Betty grable, ginger rogers, etc...) 26 year o.d Barbra playing dolly was never going to work.

Filming "Before The Parade Passes By"

That parade scene is as impressive as fuck.

Danny Lockin's murder

[quote] That parade scene is as impressive as fuck.

Yes, I suffered 'la petite mort'.

R41 I had the soundtrack album as a kid (asked Santa for it for Christmas, what a little gayling thing to do) and used to love staring at the cover art,,especially the flowers. I adored that record.

[quote] It's common knowledge that Barbra walked all over Wyler on Funny Girl. Willie's famous quip telling people to go easy on Barbra because this was the first picture she ever directed for one thing.... Gene and her didn't get along, because she would call Kelly late at night, wanting to spend several hours on the phone going over the days shoot. Gene refused and pissed her off. Matthau detested her as well, but they made up years later.

Not according to Gene Kelly's wife and she might know more about it than you.

Doesn't Gene Kelly's wife make money by doing clip shows about him all over the world? She knows what audiences want to hear.

I love Barbra, but I do think Doris Day would have been the very best choice. She was the right age, was a wonderful singer, and had warmth.

What about Miss Alice Faye?

Though the brilliant Irene Sharaff (Funny Girl, The King and I, West Side Story, Cleopatra, An American in Paris, Meet Me in St. Louis, Brigadoon, etc.) is the credited costume designer of the entire film, I find it hard to believe that she designed anything more than Streisand's costumes. Marianne McAndrews' dresses are all particularly horrible whereas all of Streisand's are gorgeous.

Was Eileen Brennan even seen for the movie?

How could Rula Lenska have been overlooked? Tragedy!

It’s great though they still made big budget movies for senior citizens back in the 60s.

That dress...

What about her, r130?

I don't like the gold dress. The red one is much more iconic.

Good for Sharaff for making the extra dress and charging them a fortune for it when the first one got ruined.

Who d'ya think I am, r137, Freddy fuckin' Wittop???

This is a tough crowd (I know, it is Datalounge after all). I think Streisand was pretty phenomenal in the film and the movie was pretty entertaining.

Even though I don’t care for Streisand’s bitchiness she is a remarkable talent. If you’ve never seen her Happening in Central Park concert from the 1960’s it’s worth a look, she’s captivating and an amazing vocalist and performer for a woman in her early 20’s.

She wasn't in her early 20s.

[quote]That parade scene is as impressive as fuck.

...except that the final pull-back shot is very unsteady and jerky, rather shockingly so for a movie filmed in 1968. Especially when you compare the very sloppy and amateurish shaking of the camera as it pulls back with the utter smoothness of the famous pull back shot of the wounded at the Atlanta train station in GONE WITH THE WIND.

Patricia Kelly lies about a lot of things- especially not knowing who Gene was when they met. She's a nasty labia licker.

I googled "Doris Day 1968," just to revisit what she looked like that year. I landed on the opening to her TV show, which has to be THE single most wholesome thing I have ever seen. I remember in subsequent seasons the show was moved to I think San Francisco and given a swinging version of "Que Sera Sera" for the theme song.

R144 So the show was about Doris Day looking after her grandkids?

Coordinating that parade scene looks overwhelming. So many people doing so many different things.

And don't you know they were fucking sick of that playback by the time they finished the scene.

This ain't a grandma bod, r145...

R147 What stupid plot device did they come up with so that Doris "had" to be in a fashion show?

Ya got a problem with couture, r148?

I didn't know much about the film the first time I saw it, so I found it very 'Jewish': taking place in Yonkers, her last name being Levi, the accents, the droll put-down humor of Borscht Belt comedians.

"Matthau was born Walter John Matthow on October 1, 1920, in New York City's Lower East Side.

His mother, Rose (née Barolsky or Berolsky), was a Lithuanian-Jewish immigrant who worked in a garment sweatshop, and his father, Milton Matthow, was a Ukrainian-Jewish peddler and electrician, from Kiev, Ukraine."

They could have Britished it up with Rex Harrison and Angela Lansbury.

I'm sure it was an homage to That Touch of Mink, r148...

[quote]Barbra's overbroad caterwauling.

Several elderbays just collapsed.

[quote] r144 I landed on the opening to [Doris Day’s] TV show, which has to be THE single most wholesome thing I have ever seen.

The landscape and Stepford vibe remind me of the infamous Mind-Sticker commercials (1969)

Rutanya Alda ("Carol Ann" of Mommie Dearest) talks about working as Streisands stand-in on "Hello, Dolly!" in her book"The Mommie Dearest Diary: Carol Ann Tells All".

According to a review: "Here, Alda puts a microscope on the songstress´s ego and insecurities and the results are addictive story telling; sometimes the voice shifts into a fabulous Hollywood Babylon-esque flamboyance that is both measured and mesmerizing."

Has anybody read it and can give us the dish?

That Doris Day intro is a reminder of how much time they wasted on intros in the 60s.

Doris Day would have been all wrong for Dolly.

The character is supposed to be exasperating and pushy (Hello, Barbra!), as originally written by Thornton Wilder and created onstage by Ruth Gordon in The Matchmaker and as played by Carol Channing in the musical on Broadway. Horace Vandergelder is supposed to find her a repellent and annoying busybody, not some dishy sunny California blonde he'd ever want to marry. Hence, the wrongness of Doris.

Besides the fact that Doris was no longer anywhere near top Hollywood film box office in 1968-69.

Agreed, R156. Also, I think it's important that Dolly read as some sort of old New York ethnic type, whether Irish or Jewish, so Doris Day would have been all wrong for the part in that respect as well.

But Dell thought she was a shoo-in for TSoM!

Doris Day could do anything. Except a character like Dolly Levi.

Thanks for posting that, r156. Exactly. Years ago someone on another forum posted (paraphrasing) "The thing about a good Dolly is you never know whether you want to hug her or slap her, often at the same time." The stage show opened for out of town try-outs under the title "Dolly, A Damned Exasperating Woman." Day would have been all wrong.

Debbie Reynolds could have done it.

[quote] That parade scene is as impressive as fuck.

This is an ugly sentence.

[quote]The parade scene is fucking impressive.

There, fixed it for you.

Debbie Reynolds would have been as wrong as Doris. Dolly Levi is NOT plucky!

I hate pluck!

But is she unsinkable, r164?

R141, she was 24 when she did the Central Park concert. She was filming Funny Girl in LA and returned to NYC for the concert. She was and is a talent that comes along every 50 or 75 years. He voice and artistry as a vocalist are her great gifts but she is also a producer, a director (of films, TV movies and stage shows), song writer, activist and philanthropist.

Get a look at her Happy Days at 6:45...

[quote]Her voice and artistry as a vocalist are her great gifts but she is also a producer, a director (of films, TV movies and stage shows), song writer, activist and philanthropist.

And she has no special talent in any other area besides her singing, and also the talent she showed as a comic actress when she was young but which she pretty much gave up in later years when she started to take herself very, very seriously and lost all of her sense of humor.

And of course Julie had to have *her* Funny Girl...

It would have been a great role for Jackie Gleason.

Jane Russell would have been a fun Dolly, but she wasn't a box office draw by 68.

Nope, it really did have to be Streisand, and I don't mind her being too young for the part: She acted and sang it with a lot of style. I'll always maintain that it's Kelly's turgid direction that hamstrung the picture. I'd love to see a good editor take the scissors to those dance scenes and get it down to a about two hours in length. Maybe even 1:50.

[Quote] Doris Day would have been all wrong for Dolly. The character is supposed to be exasperating and pushy (Hello, Barbra!), as originally written by Thornton Wilder and created onstage by Ruth Gordon in The Matchmaker and as played by Carol Channing in the musical on Broadway. Horace Vandergelder is supposed to find her a repellent and annoying busybody, not some dishy sunny California blonde he'd ever want to marry. Hence, the wrongness of Doris.

You're not very familiar with Doris Day movies, are you? She often played headstrong.

They should have cast Janis Joplin.

I've seen Love Me or Leave Me and I know Doris could act but she'd still have been all wrong for Dolly.

Doris as a busybody is not hard to imagine.

I always thought Lucille Ball might have pulled off Dolly. Only a little beyond age appropriate and had that right combination of lovable but annoying. She could sing a few phrases herself and beyond that she was always dubbed in her films.

She starred in the wrong Jerry Herman film.

[quote]and beyond that she was always dubbed in her films . Well, except for that one unfortunate time....

Hello Dolly Medley

She sure as hell didn't skimp on the orchestra in her shows.

No, r177, just...no.

I still like the idea of Doris. And frankly, I think the problem was more with Walter Matthau. I get that he was supposed to be an unappealing old fart, but there had to be a little something more there. Does anyone have any ideas for an alternative to him? I can’t really think of one at the moment.

Doris and Jim Garner!

Wasn’t Jim too handsome?

I think someone once mentioned Sean Connery. I suppose if he could’ve gotten past the Scottish burr, there was the right kind of orneriness to him and yet *some* sex appeal. Or maybe he could’ve kept the Scottish burr, I don’t know. I guess not with a name like Vandergelder.

I find Doris Day's obvious wig very distracting.

It looks like she bought it at a drug store.

Sylvia Miles and Raymond Burr!

I like the Garner idea. What about Jimmy Stewart? He could have leaned into the querulousness of the character. Jack Lemmon, too.

Horace only has one big song, so he doesn't have to be much of a vocalist.

Dolly Levi was born Dolly Gallagher, so she doesn't have to be played by a Jewish actress.

Doris Day and Dean Martin would have been fun. He could certainly sing, and he was actually a curmudgeon in real life--he could have brought that out for the role.

Jayne would have brought in the international market...

R190 A festival of cultural appropriation and orientalism!

Jack Lemmon! Not bad at all.

Jayne was the daughter of Missionaries. She was born in China and spent much of her childhood there. She spoke fluent Mandarin.

Jack Lemmon and Judy!

I guess he wouldn't have translated to the screen, but I always liked the look of David Burns, who originated the role of Horace on Broadway. That big olde tyme mustache. His gruff version of "It Takes A Woman" on the cast album is great, too. I just don't care for Matthau in this role, all gloomy moaning.

Back in the 60s, my parents saw Ginger Rogers as Dolly on Broadway and always said she was great. However, I can't see her getting the film part in '68.

[quote]Back in the 60s, my parents saw Ginger Rogers as Dolly on Broadway and always said she was great.

Interesting, as I have heard several people say that she and Betty Grable were the worst of all the stage Dollys.

Doris Day was an extremely limited actress. Wonderful at what she did but with little range.

The two classic musicals she should have done as films were ANNIE GET YOUR GUN and SOUTH PACIFIC. And she might have been a fabulous Sally in a film of FOLLIES in the early 1970s. But DOLLY? Just, no.

[quote]Doris Day was an extremely limited actress. Wonderful at what she did but with little range.

I don't agree with that at all, but I do think she would have been all wrong for Dolly. Again, I think the character needs to come across as old New York ethnic in some way, and that just wasn't in her wheelhouse.

I don't think Doris had a rich enough belt for the Annie songs, r198. She was better served by her Calamity Jane songs.

Jane

[quote]I don't think Doris had a rich enough belt for the Annie songs, [R198]. She was better served by her Calamity Jane songs.

What a strange comment. For whatever reason, Doris obviously made the choice NOT to belt on that very weird and disappointing recording of ANNIE GET YOUR GUN, but she belts just fine in CALAMITY JANE and also in THE PAJAMA GAME.

Gene Kelly brought in some old Freed Unit queens for the music - Roger Edens and Lennie Hayton. Note both of them died shortly thereafter.

[quote]News flash, Barbra Streisand didn't have the power.

Thanks for chiming in with the usual bullshit, Barbra.

Streisand was a mega-star and the movie company, and that includes the director, bent over backwards to make her happy. She had LOTS OF POWER.

Roslyn Kind would have been wonderful.

r200, actually, that Day/Goulet collaboration was my introduction to the AGYG score when I was a wee gayling. Imagine my shock when I finally first heard Ethel Merman belt out those numbers, even Moonshine Lullabye, lol, years later.

But I agree with r202, though, that it was a choice made by either Doris or the record company to sing those songs with a gentler and more "Dayish" lilt. And for those who have always hated Merman's brass or Betty Hutton's manic screeching, maybe a gentler approach would have made for a better film.

R206, anyone other than Betty Hutton in the role of Annie would have made for a better film :-(

I remember seeing Hello Dolly on television when I was young. I think it's great, but it suffers from two major problems. (1) Bad casting in one role in particular -- there is almost nothing appealing about Walter Matthau. He can't sing or dance, and he also had zero sex appeal. I get it, he didn't like working with Barbra, and he bitched about it. But he looks miserable the entire time he is on screen, and consequently, we can't understand why she would be attracted to him. (2) This movie is too long. Gene Kelly, you should have trimmed these song and dance numbers down to get this thing to fit in about two hours.

I think Betty had a much Annie in her, r207. I don't know why George Sidney chose to go the Bombastic Betty route. Type and voice-wise, she was a good fit for the role, able to be a brassy hoydenish tomboy and still be feminine.

I'm still curious why she never did Dolly (that I know of).

^

Another reason I don't think Judy was good for the role is she doesn't appear believable as a backwoods hick.

R141. She was born in 1942. That makes her 25.

Imagine if Judy Garland had taken care of herself. She'd have been 46 and I think could have played a good busybody.

r208 there was one other problem...it was way overproduced.

[quote]...it was way overproduced.

Turn in your Gay Card!

Debbie Reynold had the gown.

History of the gown

[quote]Interesting, as I have heard several people say that she and Betty Grable were the worst of all the stage Dollys.

That's because she was drunk

They would have hired and fired Garland, then either Betty Hutton or Susan Hayward would have taken her place.

[quote]Bad casting in one role in particular -- there is almost nothing appealing about Walter Matthau. He can't sing or dance, and he also had zero sex appeal.

I can't believe several of you people think Walter Matthau is the worst piece of casting in the movie. I think he's well cast and a very amusing curmudgeon, while by far the most horrendous piece of casting, and the most unwatachable and unlistenable performance, is clearly Michael Crawford as Cornelius.

R169, you don’t have a clue- do you?

R220, I stand by my opinion that Streisand was supremely talented as singer and, at least in her younger years, as a comic actress, but not especially talented in any other area, including directing. If you disagree, that's fine.

Jayne Meadows didn't learn to speak English until her parents moved back to the US when she was in her adolescence. Up until then she spoke only Chinese. I don't see any cultural appropriation with a woman singing a song in her native language.

[quote] I don't see any cultural appropriation with a woman singing a song in her native language.

The whole thing was cringy. Every oriental stereotype. And white guys in chinaman drag?

There's not much plot, so they wisely amped-up the dancing, and hired a dancer to direct it.

Was Kelly so traumatized he never wanted to be a part of any film again?

He did Xanadu, silly! Classic roller dance!

My choice is Liza & Burt. Or Liza & Gene.

I just feel like Horace should have had SOME latent sex appeal, something for Dolly to bring out. That just never happens with old Walter.

Okay. What about Tony Curtis? He had the comedic chops. I could see him performing "It Takes a Woman."

Just think, when this movie was made Barbra had been a star for all of about four years. Today it would be like someone who broke out in 2018. She sure packed in a lot of work during the 60s.

[quote]I just feel like Horace should have had SOME latent sex appeal, something for Dolly to bring out. That just never happens with old Walter.

I agree that Matthau lacks "sex appeal" as Horace, but I really don't think that's what Dolly's looking for in wanting to marry him. She just wants caring and companionship and, as she says, she wants to be stop living from hand to mouth. I do think Matthau comes across as charming in the final scene, after his transformation, and that's enough to make us feel good about their marriage.

Paul Ford in The Matchmaker movie opposite Shirley Booth and David Burns as Horace in the original Broadway production of Hello Dolly never exuded sex appeal of any kind. But they were both brilliantly funny in their own right.

I saw the show in the theater and thought it was stupid. There is almost no plot.

I get that people like the songs, but I'm still surprised it is a popular show.

No plot ? Were you sleeping through most of it r231 ?

[quote]I don't see any cultural appropriation with a woman singing a song in her native language.

Oh yeah, r222? Well then, how do you feel about the Meadows girls warbling in Japanese???

I thought Matthaue was quite sexy in Charlie Varrick.

*Matthau

Poor Sandy D. It was a case of Lucy/Madeline K all over again....never let someone upstage you

Yes, because Sandy Duncan went on to prove she is a much bigger movie star than Barbra Streisand.

Madeline Kahn wasn't a bigger movie star than Streisand but Kahn was a more talented actress and comic performer.

Kahn never gave a good dramatic performance.

Mange merde, r239...

Supposedly Stanley Donen turned down directing Dolly.

R219, I actually loved Crawford in the movie. That part where he and the younger guy meet the two women for dinner and he just stares through them as Irene says "Here we are" always got me to laugh. But he was definitely a very awkward performer/actor, and his later success on the stage always baffled me.

For what it's worth, I love this movie as it was a piece of my childhood. Looking back on it, parts of it were clunky. I actually have no issue with Bab's casting; I think she rocked it and I'm not even a fan of her singing or her in general. And although the dance scenes did get stupidly long, the choreography was absolutely beautiful, especially the Dancing' number. It was over-produced, but I think the end result really was a polished product, hit or not. The only two I couldn't stand were the niece and Tommy Tune; that was some f-ed up mess.

Frank Spencer.

[quote]R237 Yes, because Sandy Duncan went on to prove she is a much bigger movie star than Barbra Streisand.

Barbra ruined Duncan’s career just like she ruined mine.

Oh for Christ sake "Paper Moon" is a comedy.

Do you find that monologue comic, r245?

ONE monologue is not a dramatic role.

Laughter is very close to tears.

Or is it?

Thanks to this thread, I’ve had hello dolly songs running through my head all day. “Put on your Sunday clothes when you feel down and out… Strut down the street and have your pic -tcha tooook….” Streisand’s phrasing is so wonderful. She’s been around so long you forget how fresh and stunning she sounded, at least to young me. Every line she sang was a bonbon. I know, Mary!

She was in such command of those songs. Now I’m thinking of the duet with Louis Armstrong. I remember hearing it for the first time and being thrilled. Only 26 years old. I know this is a weird question, but where the hell did she learn to sing like that? Joni James records?

Mwah!

Good Lord, Streisand’s voice is positively superhuman in r179s clip from Ed Sullivan.

R179

R251 Mm, that was a bit de trop. Dolly was a mere five years after this. Boy oh boy did she blossom and mature rapidly in that short time, vocally, lookswise, everything.

Barbra is a sensation no matter who she’s teamed up with!

[quote]where the hell did she learn to sing like that? Joni James records?

Streisand has a severe issue with crediting any other singer from influencing her style. Sis Roslyn Kind confirmed in a radio interview what I long suspected - Barbra listened to Lena Horne. That would be young Barbra and the later nightclub headliner Lena, not the MGM one. If you don't know the difference it would be worth your while to find out.

If you don't know, you better ask somebody.

If you don’t know, ask Roslyn.

A new production....

[quote]where the hell did she learn to sing like that? Joni James records?

Yes. It was Joni James.

From the NYTimes obit of Joni James' recent death:

"A top-selling artist known as the “Queen of Hearts,” she had a voice tinged with longing and melancholy and was an early influence on Barbra Streisand."

FG deleted scene

She hated Gene Kelly.

"Heartfelt chanteuse," that's a very sweet thing to be called in one's obit.

R260, I'm not saying that obit is inaccurate, but I have observed those NYT obits deteriorating - written by youngsters who have no idea what or who they're talking about. Of course pre-written obituaries of famous people are in the files in case they die, sometimes I wonder by who. It's like Stephen Colbert interviewing a Broadway legend only knowing who they are because his notes say the name.

How is it over produced? Have you seen pictures of this period? How people were dressed? The crowds at parades? The architecture? And then you have to factor in Sharraff and DeCuir who were going to make it stylized. How else do you make a 14th Street parade? You people haven't seen a turn of the 20th Century photo of Manhattan in your life.

The only criticisms that make sense to me are get rid of Michael Crawford who is clearly mentally challenged and too silly. He makes Charles Nelson Reilly come across like Spencer Tracy. Get rid of the waiters' gallop which serves no point and is badly choreographed and the other dance numbers could use a bit of trimming. But not too much. Dolly in two hours? I guess everyone today needs Cliff Notes.

And who is the complete idiot who says My Fair Lady has a boring book? To this day it is one of the most popular and beloved of all musicals and you've got obsessive young video guys totally into sci-fi and action videos praising the MFL 4k to the skies on youtube. One says it's the best 4k of 2021. And while few classic films are in 4k a ton of new films are. And MFL still shines to these guys who were born decades after the film was made. And they don't say well it's beautiful but boring. They think it's pretty great. I myself saw it on a rainy afternoon at the Criterion theater in Times Square which was very memorable for a boy like me. It was like going to a Broadway show when people would dress up. Get a 4k player for this film alone. It is sumptuous.

Toy R Us. Now I don't know what it is.

The Wendy Hiller Pygmalion is all you need.

Pygmalion is missing the songs which keep running through your head while you're watching it.

Saw the restored 70MM "My Fair Lady" at Radio City Music Hall. It was enjoyable but would love to see a production where Higgins could actually sing and well too.

R264. Where did you get the idea Colbert doesn’t know classic Broadway? He’s in his 50s and was a Theatre major at Northwestern in the 80s.

Wendy Hiller and Leslie Howard were loverly.

Yes Warner should have had Bill Lee dub Harrison. It would have improved his performance immeasurably. It might have even got him an Oscar.

Our Lenora...

[quote]Yes Warner should have had Bill Lee dub Harrison. It would have improved his performance immeasurably. It might have even got him an Oscar.

I posted above that the best way to enjoy Dolly on film is to watch the fabulous The Matchmaker film with Shirley Booth and Paul Ford and then listen to either the original Broadway cast recording or the original London cast recording.

Likewise I posted years ago on another forum that the real way to enjoy My Fair Lady on film is to watch the fantastic 1938 film of Pygmalion with Howard and Hiller and then listen to the original 1956 original cast album (not the London stereo remake). I saw the original Moss Hart staging of My Fair Lady and as much as I love George Cukor his film version is an overblown, sloggy mess that doesn't touch the original stage production.

Higgins was written for a nonsinger, was it not? It's a bad idea to get a singer for a nonsinger role. The singer will try to hold note and bend the whole structure out of its original construction.

*hold notes

Harrison win a Tony for his performance as Higgins. There was no way anyone was going to dub him.

[quote]How is it over produced? Have you seen pictures of this period? How people were dressed? The crowds at parades? The architecture? And then you have to factor in Sharraff and DeCuir who were going to make it stylized. How else do you make a 14th Street parade? You people haven't seen a turn of the 20th Century photo of Manhattan in your life.

Did you ever see the Ascot scene in "My Fair Lady"?

It's simple and stylized. The race is only indicated, the audience uses its imagination to fill in the rest.

THAT'S how you do it.

[quote]You people haven't seen a turn of the 20th Century photo of Manhattan in your life.

"Hello Dolly" was not meant to be a fucking documentary. It is a fantasy.

See the clip below of "Guys & Dolls". Go to 1:42 in the video and look at Times Square.

That's how you do it.

"Hello Dolly" should have been a confection. A music box. A diorama.

Gene Kelly's choices were banal. He sucked the charm right out of the show.

Thank you r279...I couldnt have said it better myself. Im the poster who said it was overproduced.

[quote]Higgins was written for a nonsinger, was it not? It's a bad idea to get a singer for a nonsinger role. The singer will try to hold note and bend the whole structure out of its original construction.

Sorry I confused you I meant to say with singable songs. Yes Higgins was written for a nonsinger, , that's why they never hire a musical actor to do it but some stuffy Brit ACTAAAH!

I don't need to see behind the scenes. I had enough trouble with what was Before me on screen.

In the 90s I saw a Broadway revival of "Dolly" with Carol Channing. There was no zero charm to suck out of that production.

The only reason to see it, r283, was because you knew it would be your last chance to see Carol in the role, r283.

And that's what Dolly is a fantasy, a confection. It builds on the accuracy of the period and turns it into an ornate candy box the kind I used to see on Valentine's Day in the main street candy store when I was a boy.

I happen to think the look of the film of Guys and Dolls is terrible and cheap. It makes me think that this is the Sam Goldwyn who used to pour unfinished wine from dinner guests glasses back into the bottles after they left. And that opening is dreadful. The opening of Dolly with the still photo of 14th Street and suddenly the elevated train starts chugging along is astounding.

'Did you ever see the Ascot scene in "My Fair Lady"?

It's simple and stylized. The race is only indicated, the audience uses its imagination to fill in the rest.

THAT'S how you do it.'

Yes that's wonderful too but very different(by the way there is a poster who loathes it.) I love it but you actually do see the very real horses and jockeys and their thundering hooves will shake your sound system. The Dolly14th Street parade is magnificent. It's like the musical version of a magnificent scene in an epic, Equally valid and just as much fun. DeCuir was very proud of that set. And damn deservedly so.

I love both films. But Guys and Dolls no. Not only do I dislike the look of Guys and Dolls but it might be the worst cast of the major movie musicals. Still I have to admit it was a hit film not least of all because it starred Brando in what may have been the worst casting decision in cinema history(though not of course from a financial point of view.) That was Sinatra's role.

My post had nothing to do with the merits of Guys and Dolls as a film or its casting.

It was about the stylizing of reality.

See Gene Kelly in various scenes in American in Paris as another example. The artifice of the sound stage. Paris was evoked...not "recreated".

Compare the the "Trolly Song" scene in Meet Me in St. Louis...and how we play along with its delightful fakery.... to "Sunday Clothes" in Dolly with its attempt at recreating the reality of a train ride.

The film is a lead balloon.

By 1969, that train had left the station. There was no way audiences then would have accepted the simplicity of anything seen in Meet Me in St. Louis in a new major Hollywood extravaganza.

Sadly.

[quote]n the 90s I saw a Broadway revival of "Dolly" with Carol Channing

By the 1990s, Channing had at least one foot in the grave.

Yes, r288.

Sadly, the grave her foot was in was the DOA production of "Dolly".

Maybe it's time for a remake.

You were talking about the merits of its stylization so I said I think it's terrible, cheap and ugly. Like the rest of the film. Dolly is a masterpiece in comparison. Interestingly they have the same costume designer and choreographer.

r291...have a seat...the role was meant for me !

1968, a turbulent year and still before Manson, before Woodstock… I don’t know, just musing on it that way.

[quote]I guess everyone today needs Cliff Notes.

Who's he?

[quote]Yes Warner should have had Bill Lee dub Harrison. It would have improved his performance immeasurably. It might have even got him an Oscar.

There was a lip sync category?

And the best way to enjoy this thread is to ignore R275.

If you look VERY carefully you'll see an extra in Before the Parade Passes By actually wearing Judy Garland's blue Under the Bamboo Tree dress from Meet Me in Saint Louis, which the great Irene Sharaff also designed. She apparently thought it would be amusing for those who caught it.

Funny, R298, just today I learned that sort of thing is called an "Easter egg." I'd never heard the term.

r298...

Wonder if the extra appreciated what she had on.

Sad to say, I think the acting by both Streisand and Sharif in that deleted scene at R261 is quite poor because it's very false. I'm guessing that's the main reason why it was deleted.

[quote]Saw the restored 70MM "My Fair Lady" at Radio City Music Hall. It was enjoyable but would love to see a production where Higgins could actually sing and well too.

Stupid comment, R269. Harrison delivers those songs exactly as they're meant to be delivered, singing certain parts (especially in "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face") and speaking others. Some Higginses have "sung" more than others, but If anyone ever chose to sing most or all of songs, it would sound ridiculous.

[quote] I'm guessing that's the main reason why it was deleted.

I trust William Wyler for his good taste but I reckon Arnstein's grubby character was thinly-drawn was whitewashed. And it didn't help have an untrained person in the role.

[quote]By 1969, that train had left the station. There was no way audiences then would have accepted the simplicity of anything seen in Meet Me in St. Louis in a new major Hollywood extravaganza.

This argument makes no sense to me. MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS doesn't have any "production numbers" in it. The closes one is "The Trolley Song," and even that only involves Judy and a small chorus on a trolley. But of course there were big production numbers in old musicals -- look at that very lengthy, huge Munchkinland sequence in THE WIZARD OF OZ.

There's nothing in MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS that remotely compares to "Before the Parade Passes By," which is indeed set during a major parade on 14th Street. How else would they have filmed it other than as a huge production number with hundreds of extras? Of course it didn't look like that on stage, because that would have been impossible.

'There's nothing in MEET ME IN ST. LOUIS that remotely compares to "Before the Parade Passes By," which is indeed set during a major parade on 14th Street. How else would they have filmed it other than as a huge production number with hundreds of extras?'

Well according to some movie musical directors on DL a NYC 14th Street parade would have 10 people and a milkcart otherwise it would be overproduced.

[Quote] Harrison win a Tony for his performance as Higgins. There was no way anyone was going to dub him.

Ha ha.

"...a huge production number with hundreds of extras?"

When I watch older movies, I see all the extra characters/background actors and I think of how they don't do this anymore.

Think of Cecil B. DeMille movies with all the extra cast players.

Imagine the costs to do this today.

[quote]Stupid comment, [R269]. Harrison delivers those songs exactly as they're meant to be delivered, singing certain parts (especially in "I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face") and speaking others. Some Higginses have "sung" more than others, but If anyone ever chose to sing most or all of songs, it would sound ridiculous.

No shit Sherlock. I'm talking about a traditional musical actor with traditional songs. And if you think Lerner and Loewe didn't write some before settling on croaker Harrsion than you're a fool.

You want them to put cut songs back in the show?

Every guy has a dick. Somebody post a shot of that fabulous, luscious, massive BUTT!

^ SORRY, WRONG THREAD!!

[Quote] Every guy has a dick. Somebody post a shot of that fabulous, luscious, massive BUTT!

Nathan Lane thread?

Well, to get things back to Dolly, Nathan was informally sent out word asking if he'd be interested in replacing Bette in the last Dolly revival and he sent back word to Rudin to get over himself.

Jack Benny was offered the chance to be a replacement Dolly in the original production with his old friend George Burns as Vandergelder and the two told Merrick to forget about it. Benny had famously done drag in the film of Charlie's Aunt.

Get over himself?

Merrick also offered replacement Dolly to Mae West. She said she'd accept if she could write her own dialog. Merrick said no, you'll play the original script and she declined.

Supposedly, Mary Martin was first offered the role of Eliza Dolittle but famously turned it down saying something like "Those poor boys (Lerner and Loewe) have lost all their talent!" but who was first offered Henry Higgins? Were there more traditionally written songs for the character originally?

The first three names considered for Eliza were Mary Martin, Deanna Durbi and Dolores Gray.

*Durbin

[quote]No shit Sherlock. I'm talking about a traditional musical actor with traditional songs. And if you think Lerner and Loewe didn't write some before settling on croaker Harrsion than you're a fool.

Ah, no, you sir are the fool if you think Lerner and Loewe even considered writing for Higgins the type of songs that would have to be sung by a full-throated baritone or tenor. It would be ALL WRONG for the character to sing songs like that, regardless of who was cast. Also, though I can't find a clip to link to and can't remember the name of the movie, there is at least one old movie (from the '40s) in which Rex Harrison can be heard singing full-out in a very pleasing, full, lyric tenor voice. So, I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about.

It's one of those songs...

Merrick also offered replacement Dolly to DL fave Lena Horne. She was insulted and rejected it. By the 1970, 53 year old Lena considered herself hip and contemporary and refused to be associated with something so old fashioned.

Lena Horne would have been as wrong for Dolly as Doris Day.

Not that Lena and Doris were similar but they both, in different ways, had completely the wrong kind of energy

If you're an actor, you FINE the "energy."

I thought Diller was the least regarded Broadway Dolly.

I don't think so, r325.

I think Martha Raye had beef with Herman. He didn't attend any of her performances in the role, something like that.

[quote] I can't find a clip to link to and can't remember the name of the movie, there is at least one old movie (from the '40s) in which Rex Harrison can be heard singing.

Can you give us a clue? British or American? Color or Black and white?

[Quote] if you think Lerner and Loewe even considered writing for Higgins the type of songs that would have to be sung by a full-throated baritone or tenor. It would be ALL WRONG for the character to sing songs like that, regardless of who was cast.

It wouldn't have been beyond the realms of possibility that, say, George Sanders might have been cast. He had a pleasant light baritone.

I think the point to be made about Higgins' voice is you wouldn't want to hear the likes of John Raitt, Gordon McRae or Howard Keel singing his songs with their beautiful baritones. Maybe Alfred Drake.

It's too bad Gilbert Gottfried never got to do the role.

I've Grown Accustomed to Her Face became a popular song for men who could really sing. Has anybody seen a production of MFL where Higgins really sang the role?

Eddie Fisher in the Vegas production was purportedly enthralling, r332.

Barbra Streisand - "Funny Girl" alternate "Swan Lake" sequence with addtl. footage (1968)

[quote]Wonder if the extra appreciated what she had on.

She farted in it so much, we could only photograph her from the front. (If you know what I mean.)

Very nice, R41. On a sidenote, Amsel also designed this Diana Ross & The Supremes 1969 Motown Lp cover.

[quote]I think the point to be made about Higgins' voice is you wouldn't want to hear the likes of John Raitt, Gordon McRae or Howard Keel singing his songs with their beautiful baritones.

And the point also to be made is that Lerner & Loewe would never have written for Higgins the type of songs that would have been well suited for legit, semi-operatic voices like Raitt, MacRae or Keel, because songs like that WOULD NOT have fit the character.

[quote]Has anybody seen a production of MFL where Higgins really sang the role?

No, because those songs as written would sound ridiculous if anyone tried to do so. That said, Harry Hadden-Paton sang (rather than spoke-sang) more than just about any other Higgins I can think of.

I'm sure some of you knowledgeable eldergays have read some reliable memoirs by and about Lerner and Loewe.

I read the biography taken from Michael Redgrave's memoirs and he mentions that he was briefly considered for Higgins before Harrison was locked in at the end of 1955.

Redgrave sang in this Euro-pudding.

Just thought I'd mention, Thornton Wilder's original play was called The Merchant Of Yonkers. It was staged by Max Reinhardt, and ran only 39 performances on Broadway, opening in 1938. It starred Jane Cowl as Dolly Levi, with Percy Waram as Vandergelder, June Walker as Mrs. Malloy, Tom Ewell as Cornelius, John Call as Barnaby, and Nydia Westman as Minnie Fay.

Wilder's rewrite, The Matchmaker (which has never been revived on Broadway) ran for 486 performances (in 1955-1956) and starred Ruth Gordon as Dolly. It featured Loring Smith (Vandergelder), Eileen Herlie (Irene Molloy), Arthur Hill (Cornelius), Robert Morse (Barnaby), Rosamund Greenwood, Prunella Scales, and William Lanteau. This production was originally staged in Edinburgh, Berlin, and London, with Sam Levene as Vandergelder.

It was based on John Oxenford's 1835 one-act farce A Day Well Spent, expanded into a full-length play (in Austria) entitled Einen Jux will er sich machen Johann Nestroy in 1842.

Tom Stoppard's play, On The Razzle, was based on the same material (omitting the Dolly character).

(The Matchmaker was directed by Tyrone Guthrie.)

[Quote] On a sidenote, Amsel also designed this Diana Ross & The Supremes 1969 Motown Lp cover.

^ an 'homage' to Alphonse Mucha.

R341 That is beautiful. I miss movie poster and album cover art.

American studios cranked out big splashy colorful musicals throughout the 1940s, 50s, and 60s. But were there any British musical films during this time?

I can only think of American musicals that were set in Britain or that cast British actors (Mary Poppins, My Fair Lady). The only British musical I can think of is Hard Day's Night, and that was not big, splashy, or colorful.

I guess England was busy being mod and swinging.

Wouldn't Ken Russell's THE BOYFRIEND be considered a British film musical? It was certainly better than most any American endeavour of that era.

[Quote]I guess England was busy being mod and swinging.

I was there for that, and Gary let me!

R346 I’ve never seen that. Had the soundtrack album though. Twiggy did a really nice job with it.

R347 That is some deep, hardcore camp you’ve uncovered. Phil Spector?! I wonder if Mike Myers saw this.

R344 Yes, there were British musicals in all eras. Hint: You could even try typing "British musicals" or "British musical comedy films" into a search engine.

R350=Oliver

Poor little...

Nothing in those 1960s/70s film musicals compares to the inventiveness of those musical numbers in THE BOYFRIEND.

from

to

Jessie Matthews - Anna Neagle - Jack Buchanan - Gracie Fields -- some of the stars of British musical films of the 30s - 50s. Look them up.

I love Flash, Bang Wallop from Half a Sixpence. Of course you have to have a tolerance for Tommy Steele which a lot of people don't. Also Money to Burn would be terrific if it hadn't been padded with a lot of silly stuff. In both numbers Grover Dale is stunning and dances far too little. One of the best male dancers I've seen in movie musicals.

Jessie Matthews, with DL fave Kathy Kirby.

[quote] Look them up.

Do we have to?

By the way...

let´s give a little credit to John Oxenford and Johann Nestroy.

Einen Jux will er sich machen (1842) (He Will Go on a Spree or He'll Have Himself a Good Time), is a three-act musical play, designated as a Posse mit Gesang ("farce with singing"), by Austrian playwright Johann Nestroy. It was adapted from John Oxenford's A Day Well Spent (1835), and first performed at the Theater an der Wien in Vienna on 10 March 1842. The music was by Adolf Müller.

Although about half of Nestroy's works have been revived for the modern German-speaking audience and many are part and parcel of today's Viennese repertoire, few have ever been translated into English, because Nestroy's language is not only stylized and finely graduated Viennese dialect, but also full of multiple puns and local allusions.

Einen Jux will er sich machen is the only one that has become well known to English-speaking theatre-goers. It has become a classic more than once. It was adapted twice by Thornton Wilder, first as The Merchant of Yonkers (1938), then as The Matchmaker (1955), which later became the musical Hello, Dolly!. It also achieved success as the comic masterpiece On the Razzle, which was adapted by Tom Stoppard in 1981. Stoppard claims in his introduction that in most of the dialogues he did not even attempt to translate what Nestroy wrote.

[quote]let´s give a little credit to John Oxenford and Johann Nestroy.

Do we have to?

Jessie Matthews was a wonderful performer. See Evergreen. But what a selfish bitch! But then I guess a very talented star has to be.

[quote]R324 If you're an actor, you FINE the "energy."

This sounds cruel. And unnecessary.

[quote] Jessie Matthews was a wonderful performer.

She's not to my taste but she was extraordinary. She sang soprano, wore skimpy costumes, did high kicks, looked like Betty Boop and Liza Minnelli and appeared in about eight big Busby-Berkeley-type musicals. She did 'Victor/Victoria' and "Dancing On The Ceiling" before Hollywood did.

She was the natural partner to Fred Astaire but studio contracts forbade them from partnering.