The Staircase

I love the actors involved, but what the fuck? Why is an American story almost solely cast with Brits and an Australian? Colin Firth sounds ridiculous.

Just watch the documentary about the case done by French guys that’s on Netflix. It will be hard for a dramatized film to top the authentically bizarre circumstances of the case.

Colin Firth sounds exactly like Michael Peterson.

Supposedly, the original documentary pulls its punches when it comes to the prosecutions case. Makes for a better documentary if you think he's innocent. Something to keep in mind when watching stuff like this--sometimes the filmmaker wants to make the best film, they're not under oath in court and they are not responsible for being 100% unbiased.

How many people a year die falling down staircases?

However many women are married to closeted gay men.

R5, they don’t usually die, but they always lose the baby…in Oklahoma.

He is so guilty!

I can’t stand him. He’s arrogant and greatly overestimates his own importance and intellect. I hate how he lives in a mansion drinking French wines but drives around town bemoaning the inequities imposed not by him, but by his ignorant inferiors. He’s a creep and I think he did it, he had a history of pushing mousy women down staircases and then sitting back pontificating with his pipe like a jackass.

The creep killed her and the girls mother too. Serial killer !

Seriously OP who did it then? The owl?

I believe his kids have addressed this in interviews but the oldest adopted daughter could be the twin of one of Peterson's biological sons. It makes all the mystery surrounding the years in Germany seem weirder.

[quote]I love the actors involved, but what the fuck? Why is an American story almost solely cast with Brits and an Australian? Colin Firth sounds ridiculous.

JULIETTE BINOCHE IS FRENCH, FUCKER!

Just saw the trailer for this. and it without knowing anything about it it looks intriguing.

The minute you find out about the SECOND staircase death, it’s case closed.

How many books, movies and documentaries do we need on this case?

Who plays his HOT sons?

Watching the trailer for the unnecessary film only made me want to rewatch the brilliant documentary.

R14 is correct, that was my turning point too.

Wait. He pushed two women down staircases?

Good god OP, HE DID IT!

Yes, once in Germany. As mentioned by R14 that's when you can't even buy any other bullshit about owls and shit.

There was also a Lifetime movie about this story starring Treat Williams as Peterson. It came out in 2007.

The woman in Germany died from a brain aneurysm which was proven by an autopsy.

R23, the initial autopsy concluded that the death was an accident due to a brain hemorrhage. After the death of Petersen’s wife, the body of the first woman was exhumed and re-examined; the second autopsy concluded that she had been hit by a blunt instrument. Face it: what are the odds that a man would find not one but two women dead at the bottom of stairs? Apparently a homicidal owl had followed Peterson around for years waiting for the opportunity to kill and kill again . . .

HBO seems to be finding it's feet again... it was it in the 90s and 000s... wobbled a bit... now it seems to be leading the pack again.

I'm watching it and the lovely Patrick Schwarzenegger is doing an outstanding job. He has a future. It'sgood, too. Well done.

I agree r15. Move on to another case. This country is full of strange shit. You can see most of them in cliff notes versions on any given day on ID Channel, Oxygen, A&E, HLN, etc.

The fact that blood was found outside of the door to the house doesn't make the owl theory crazy to me. That, and the fact that he was so reticent to plead anything amounting to guilty.

He killed both women in the SAME manner. Blows to the head but he says they "fell" down the stairs.

Schwarzenegger is surprisingly good in this.

it was the owl!!!

[QUOTE] Patrick Schwarzenegger is doing an outstanding job.

I agree. He’s great in this.

Evidence for the owl theory:

The wounds on Kathleen’s head are EXACTLY the same size and shape as owl talons She had microscopic feet feathers from an owl in her hair Her blood was found outside the house There was gravel from outside on her knees Her fingerprint in blood was found on the inside of the front door Her hyoid bone was cracked exactly as it would be if something slammed into her head from behind People were attacked by owls in the area Owls were living in the trees surrounding the Petersen’s house

I think she took the rubbish outside and an owl slammed into the back of her head causing her to fall to her knees. It’s feet got tangled in her hair and she had to grapple to get it off. She ran inside & slammed the door behind her. She ran to go upstairs and collapsed, maybe knocking herself out. She bled to death.

Kathleen did not die of blunt force trauma to the head. She had no brain injury or skull fracture…she died of blood loss due to the lacerations on her scalp, nothing else. Who the fuck murders someone by clawing their scalp? It’s absurd.

People can snigger all they like, but if you look at the actual evidence the only scenario that makes sense is an owl attack.

I'm waiting for Ms Patsy Ramsey formerly of Boulder Colorado to say "owl attack. I've seen it before"

[QUOTE] People can snigger all they like, but if you look at the actual evidence the only scenario that makes sense is an owl attack.

Hi, Michael!

I love how they are telling the story. They are giving Kathleen's POV (before her death) a place, getting into the behind-the-scenes of the documentary, and showing both sides of the cases.

The Owl and the Pussy Cat theory, the Owl to the head diving and clawing, the Pussy Cat entangled at her feet and she tripped to death...

This is very enjoyable. I always found the original doc a little boring, but this is entertaining. Lots of interesting performances.

The expert (crime reconstruction) used by the Peterson prosecution was a fraud spewing junk science. The US Attorney used that same expert in one of my murder cases and we fought so hard to keep him out. Our judge didn't listen to us. He would only let us impeach him on one little area - that he lied about his credentials. He was still allowed to testify as an expert. That really hurt our case. When we learned he was involved in the Peterson case we alerted his defense and gave them what we had. They used that info and their judge smartly understood how bad his lies were and struck his entire testimony in the Peterson case.

R35 It was a Brent Wolgamott attack! He was such an entertaining character at the trial.

Was there an insurance policy involved? There usually is.

Just watched Episode 1. The technical merits are outstanding. That spiralling shot of the family driving in separate cars on their way to make a statement about Michael being charged was evocative. The ensemble is a dream. Firth is killing it and watching Posey wind up is making me giddy. I could say strong things about every actor in this cast. A masterclass in an establishing episode of TV mini-series storytelling. If the subsequent episodes can hold up, I will be impressed.

Parker Posey is cast PERFECTLY. I can't wait for her, "He was a BYE-sex-sue-ahl." scene. We still repeat that line from the documentary. Seeing her just walk in the door made me cackle.

That's for the spoiler in the headline you piece of shit

The case happened over 20 years ago you rancid lump of suet.

EPISODE 2 - Holy shit! "That son-of-a-bitch used the blow-poke!" The second episode's main feature is choreography. It's not just a dance presentation at a fundraiser in the Peterson's home, but the elegant manner in which the story switches back and fourth between time, as well as supposition. And at the centre of this orchestration is Kathleen--an ambitious and able wife, mother, and professional who is the glue, foundation, and mechanics of this family. She's vibrant and accomplished, but, even for her, the pressures of work and the expectations of her husband and children are pressing down on her and weighing on her face. This episode effectively demonstrate the defence's assemblage of events point by point before revealing a recreation care of Toni Collette (effortlessly mesmerising) in a scene that might as well been out of Hereditary. The precision the filmmakers employ continues to enthral, down to the score and production design. There are a lot of moving parts which don't always perfectly nestle into the theme, but the series is sparing and efficient in its inclusion of details. The episode culminates in an exciting scene where Rosemarie Dewitt chews her scene from one end right along to the other.

Told you I was hardcore!

EPISODE 3 - "We'll let the jury decide," retorts Freda Black (Posey) to a young, supposedly hung man boasting about his goods. This episode covered perceptions and closeted lives of those revolving around the sphere of the manipulative Michael Peterson. Whether directly asked or subtly implied, he finds a way to bend everyone around him to his will. The series continues to brilliantly portray relationships and the complex nature of the case in very cinematic ways. The best deployed scene in the episode happens early on when Michael surprises Kathleen with a masseuse. Once she lays face down onto the massage table, we see Michael in positions where he is both lost in thought about politics, but also unconsciously studying the physiology of the more vulnerably placed Kathleen. Collette's expressive face distorted from the table, we see his legs walk off in an askew angle from her POV in a bit of foreshadowing. This economic storytelling is another prime example of why this series is so engrossing. The cast continues to shine including lesser known actors like Cullen Moss as D.A. Jim Hardin and Tim Guinee as Peterson's put-upon brother, Bill.

There was only one tiny feather found, not feathers, and I would question how no one heard her scream in the front yard. Her husband may have been too far away and behind the house, but neighbors were close enough that someone should have heard her when being attacked by an owl.

I don't discount the theory entirely but there are a couple of reasons why I don't think it's terribly likely.

Look. I believe his first wife died accidentally, but it gave him the idea and the basic framework for how to get rid of wife #2. Can I also predict how well Patrick is doing? He has a very bight future if he makes smart choices. And Colin Firth is completely brilliant. I have never seen him do such gritty authentic work. I have always like him but this is probably his best work ever.

I am enjoying this because even all the should-be recognizable supporting actors are performing to the point of near anonymity. Such as Sophie Turner. Even uber-douche Patrick Schwarzenegger is doing well. Always liked Dane DeHaan, too (Chronicle). Plus, my childhood friend Trini Alvarado has turned up and is killing it in the kind of quirky character role (Patty Peterson) Piper Laurie would have done 30 years ago.

Here’s the original family.

I’m surprised this is an HBO Max series instead of HBO proper. Even though HBO Max occasionally has some true gems (Hacks, Station Eleven), it’s clearly HBO’s home for projects in which they have limited faith.

Why are they making movies about documentaries? Just watch the fucking documentary which is a million times better. It’s like that stupid Tiger King movie. Completely unnecessary. The Mommie Dead and Dearest didn’t need a movie either.

R46 that was a good moment….I like how she tried to psych him out. Re: his nude photos and escort ad being passed around at the trial.

Brad: “Good thing I’m well hung.”

Freda: “I’m not so sure about that.”

But Brent Wolgamott was well hung. Not huge…but perfectly serviceable goods for the escort he was.

Peterson’s emails and calls had him talking like a top and he was mostly into hyper masculinity from his hook up partners, but of course a big dick always helps.

I've followed this case closely. Watched the documentary when it came out and was relieved when he was released from prison.

He was released because the forensic "expert" manufactured evidence against him and it was discovered that he had done the same in dozens of other cases that led to conviction.

I don't believe for a minute that he killed her. Even if she confronted him about being gay, the guy has shown repeatedly that he breezes past shame. He was exposed as having lied about his military service, which is pretty humiliating, but he just ignored it and carried on with his city council campaign. I highly doubt that being exposed as being bi would have rattled him. His first wife found out and he didn't kill her.

My guess is that she was drunk (she was known to like the sauce and was drinking more because of job stress) and fell. Also, the owl theory isn't as nuts as it seems. There have been many recorded owl attacks which have led to similar injuries. Maybe she was attacked, ran inside and up the stairs and fell. Her blood showed that she was drunk.

Michael clearly was prosecuted because he was very vocal about local politics and they used evidence that he had sex with guys to get the redneck jury to convict.

I've watched the first few episodes of the HBO series. It's very good. But suggest you watch the documentary first.

He killed her. Next.

Good thing I’m well hung

Was the owl trying to rape her, and things got out of hand??

R53 You mean the documentary edited by someone Michael was fucking?

Hunny I live in the South. I live in a residential area, upper middle class, lots of trees and we have squirrels, ducks, geese, raccoons, and all kinds of varmints. It attracts owls and hawks. And they can and do swoop down and try to get you. It is not a joke. It is not a wild concoction. I have seen it, and they are fucking scary.

R60, animals like owls and hawks are dangerous because they are territorial. They attack when their territory is threatened. It’s incredibly hard to believe that an owl would feel territorial about the inside of someone’s house.

I mean most people don't know shit about this guy his past is nasty and his son was a psycho.

Non of it has ever been talked about in documentary or movie.

Check out some podcasts.

Elizabeth Ratcliffe wasn't married to Michael Peterson. Some have speculated that the Petersons and Ratcliffes were swapping partners.

[quote] Supposedly, the original documentary pulls its punches when it comes to the prosecutions case. Makes for a better documentary if you think he's innocent. Something to keep in mind when watching stuff like this--sometimes the filmmaker wants to make the best film, they're not under oath in court and they are not responsible for being 100% unbiased.

ITA. Long-time true crime fan here. I've seen several different accounts of Peterson's story. IIRC, it was the Netflix account that, also, left out some strong points that the prosecution had. Totally irresponsible for a documentary-type show. I guess it's OK for a dramatization, though (to make it seem more like he's innocent).

[quote] I believe his kids have addressed this in interviews but the oldest adopted daughter could be the twin of one of Peterson's biological sons. It makes all the mystery surrounding the years in Germany seem weirder.

I never noticed that. Maybe he's the bio father of the adopted daughter.

The step-daughters (from Kathleen's previous relationship) initially supported Peterson, but the broke ranks and now think he killed their mother.

R62: They allude to one of the sons being a mess, but I'm surprised they didn't reveal more. maybe that's in a future episode. They seem to be judicious about "bombshells"--his bisexuality, the crazy ex-wife, the daughter's lesbian love affair.

The escort guy seems underplayed in the film. There's a YouTube of him on "The Price is Right" and he seems like an overstimulated handful.

The problem here is that the prosecution evidence was tainted but the defense didn't entirely add-up. Her blood alcohol was not high.

[quote] The escort guy seems underplayed in the film.

The escort guy was a character nobody would believe if you wrote it as fiction. That guy was so much enjoying himself on the witness stand. He and Peterson are both full of themselves and drama queens.

The opening credits of this are masterful.

[QUOTE] The step-daughters (from Kathleen's previous relationship) initially supported Peterson, but the broke ranks and now think he killed their mother.

Why is there only one of Kathleen’s daughters (Caitlin) on the show?

She only had one daughter. Clayton and Todd were Michael's biological sons. Martha and Margaret were adopted by Michael and his first wife Patty. Caitlin was Kathleen's daughter from a previous marriage.

OK, sorry, I thought Kathleen had more than one child from previous relationship(s).

The family dynamics are confusing. In the first episode they show an extra person at the dinner table but don't explain that it's Clayton's wife.

Can someone list what they left out of the Netflix documentary, for those of us who haven't listened to the true crime podcasts?

The first lady named Elizabeth who died was a friend of Michael Peterson's, not his wife. His first wife Patty is still alive, I believe.

The adopted girls, Martha and Margaret, who were daughters of Elizabeth, look so much like Peterson's two sons with Patty that it's long been speculated that Elizabeth's kids were fathered by Michael.

[quote] Can someone list what they left out of the Netflix documentary, for those of us who haven't listened to the true crime podcasts?

R73, I'm sorry, I can't remember what Netflix left out. The incident happened so long ago and the Dateline-type stuff has been going on for years as well. I usually don't put that much stock into re-enactments by either side. I forgot what type of evidence seemed persuasive to me (that wasn't in the Netflix show). I think it was the blood spatter evidence that may have been persuasive to me.

I work in the field of law and I also try not to be persuaded so much by the previous woman dying on staircase as well. (Try to focus on the case and evidence at hand.)

The Netflix documentary didn't mention that Peterson had a relationship with the documentary's editor for a decade, and also that the documentary team became employees of Peterson's legal defense team during the making of it.

The timeline Peterson gave about Kathleen's death doesn't match the forensic evidence, and also she was not all that drunk. She was sober enough to have passed a Breathalizer.

R76, I just read that article. Peterson was 1.4 million in debt, and that's how much his wife's life insurance policy was.

Yes! That was really shitty that Peterson was in a relationship with someone involved in the documentary (Netflix). He is such an unattractive windbag.

R77, oops. That doesn't look good. How inconvenient. Or convenient.

Sheknows.com is an impeccable source.🙄

He’s such a dork.

I watched the documentary, which had me on the edge of my seat. No need to watch another show about it

Is no one going to mention the kitchen scene? I really didn't need to see Colin Firth with his face in Toni Colette's ass.

A fall on the stairs can't explain Kathleen's blood on the ceiling and walls of the stairvase. Cast off from a blunt object does.

r76 how does one perform a breathalyzer on a dead, non-breathing woman? Am i missing something here? I heard her BAC was .07 and she also had valium in her system.

Classic Occam’s Razor solution. Peterson killed his wife. End of story.

R85 “to have passed,” Mary.

R85, there are different ways to obtain a BAC measurement besides an Intoxylizer (fka Breathalyzer). You can obtain BAC from blood and urine as well. So, for a dead person, blood.

Yes, that was what i was getting at with r76 - she can't "pass" a breathalyzer test when she wasn't breathing. it was measured by blood or urine and it was .07 which is not passing in most states.

Hell, i've stumbled after a few glasses of wine on a FLAT surface, much less a staircase.

She wasn’t operating a motor vehicle, anyway, so she didn’t need to pass a BAC test.

BAC stands for Blood Alcohol Level so guess how they got it

^ C = concentration (not level)

I am watching just for Parker Posey playing that bitch on wheels country attorney!

Freda Black the prosecutor died at 57 from liver disease. Parker Posey sounds like interesting casting.

Colin Firth is killing it as the blowhard Michael Petersen. He sounded EXACTLY like that in the docu, and also brings across the guy's demeanor pretty well.

Maybe this will revive Colin's career.

That scene of Kathleen falling down the stairs in the reimagining of the forensic team was quite gruesome. I was not prepared for that.

Agreed that Toni is amazing, though. I love how the show is making the owl like a spectre waiting in the wings, the bad guy lurking about.

Oh, he did that shit.

He’s the guiltiest man on the planet.

Yes, I fell down a flight of stairs once and literally painted the stairwell with my blood.

I'm watching part 3 now and I'm already bored, obviously since I'm on the computer while watching. The film alone doesn't hold my attention and I can't stand the character who is supposed to be the killer husband. Even if he didn't do I hope it turns out he's send to prison for the rest of his life or gets the death sentence.

Yeah, even though i feel like they made far too much of his bisexuality than what was needed AND the evidence from forensics was fabricated/not correct, 2 wives dying and found at the bottom of the stairs is pretty suspect.

Elizabeth Ratcliffe wasn't his wife.

Parker Posey is fabulous in this and I usually find her a little irritating. I consider it an open question whether Michael did it or not. But the prosecution didn’t have the evidence to convict him and thought substituting homophobia and the Freda Black show would make up for the reasonable doubt. Big mistake.

r103 okay. Kind of semantics at this point.

Michael Peterson is now a free man. He was released in 2011 after evidence was found that SBI analyst Duane Deaver, one of the principal witnesses against Peterson had falsely represented evidence in 34 cases.

I love that the character playing his brother clearly thinks he did it.

Yes, that fucker ruined a lot of cases, Duane Deaver.

Did Colin wear inappropriate period piece costumes?

Couldn’t have said it better myself, R101. These big-name streaming crime dramas aren’t as good as they should be.

[quote] He’s the guiltiest man on the planet.

it isn't enough to be guilty. You gotta prove it.

R42 I also loved that sequence. I was wondering if it was supposed to imitate the feeling of tumbling down the long set of stairs. That’s how I felt as I was watching it.

Owls can't talk, right? Because they sound good for next time but the last thing I need is another Polly-want-a-pineapple problem to solve.

[quote] it isn't enough to be guilty. You gotta prove it.

No I don’t, I’m not a fucking court of law. He’s so guilty you can see it from space.

The “owl theory” is so emblematic of the ludicrous idea that he didn’t kill her.

Why don’t they just claim that Mr. Darcy, a fictional character from an Austen novel, pushed her down the stairs and be done with it?

It's surprising how many people seemingly seriously entertain "the owl theory."

If an owl truly attacked Kathleen, it begs a couple of question. The first one would have been how the owl managed to fly right out of the house after the unusual chance of flying into a house (I guess whilst attacking Kathleen). Now, I'm sure many will explain that one-in-a-billion occurrence away as owls just being really intelligent animals. Okay, sure, fine.

But, the second question would pertain to the fact that this mythical owl left barely any evidence behind. If a bird attacks a human being--especially one adorned in a rich jacket--they're going to leave more than a micro-feather behind, particularly an especially violent attack that would have had to have gone on for minutes. A few feathers would come out.

There is also the observations by paramedics that Kathleen was dead for much longer than Michael suggested with his calls. Remember, she's breathing when he makes the first call. She's not minutes later during the second call. Minutes after that, the paramedics arrived.

Yes, Freda Black and Kathleen's sister Candace were awful homophobes who used their vile biases to fuel a narrative that would secure a conviction for a man who murdered his wife. That doesn't equate to Michael's "innocence." Further, the fact that he was having gay affairs doesn't absolve him from cheating on his wife. He was a narcissistic leach and a proven liar. Look at the careers he pursued: writing AND politics. And he was able to do it because his wife was earning the big bucks and furnishing his and his family's lifestyle. She also did all the cooking. The guy was lazy.

And, the likely situation (as R86 smartly pointed to Occam’s Razor, which is the way to go the vast majority of the time) is that Kathleen did not know about Michael's affairs (there's no evidence that she knew), and she probably made the discovery when she went up to check her work email after the phone call (the email would have been checked on the same computer Michael kept records of his extramarital material). They were both drinking. Angry, she probably confronted him and possibly told him to go pound sand. He probably flew into a rage, because he was entitled and his lifestyle was now threatened to be taken away from him. He whacked her to death with the blow poke. And this doesn't even cover all of his odd behaviours.

Who knows what happened to the Ratliff's mother. That's bizarre as well, especially after the father's death. Perhaps he did her in, perhaps it was an accident that gave him "an idea."

I will say it's probably a coincidence. How on earth would he have grabbed a blow poke seemingly from the fireplace and bludgeoned her to death right when she was at the stairwell and it not be a coincidence?

Anyway, not a frau, but gay man here. If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's a duck, and the guy was guilty as fuck.

I don't know R14 sometimes things do happen twice. I had to tell my first husband that his best friend was dead (car accident) and I had to tell my second husband his best friend was dead (Asthma attack).

I can't get married again, I'd be condemning some poor man to death.

The defense said it was a rape gone wrong and that there was significant evidence of owl penetration and owl DNA In her underpants

I’m curious whether they’ll do a recreation of how Michael could have killed her, the way they did one of how she could have truly fallen down the stairs. Switcheroo on the viewer.

Is all the stuff about the bats to set up for the owl theory?

[quote]it was measured by blood or urine and it was .07 which is not passing in most states.

Absolutely untrue! Just look this stuff up! Or were you trying to pull one over on us?

[bold] It's 0.08 in every state because that's the Federal limit. She was at 0.07. [/bold]

I'm curious as well R119. From a filmmaking standpoint, if they go for it and succeed, I'll be really impressed.

At any rate, they way they handled the original defence theory in Episode was so masterful. The playing of the scream recordings and then showing Collette fall multiple times accidentally was chilling. But, it was also presented in a way that any sane viewer could watch and think, "Well, maybe, but probably not." The scene is followed up with the defence attorney dismissing the need to coherently explain the scratches and damage to her thyroid.

I think they'll definitely run through the D.A.'s version of events (aka what really happened) in a hopefully equally chilling fashion.

But, yes, I'm curious about how they'll address the owl theory visually. It probably won't be until Episode 7 or 8.

"The classic “hoot” call is not the only sound owls make. Many owls have a wide range of vocal sounds, including hisses, whistles, screeches, screams, and purrs. Owls will also use bill clacks for communication, especially when agitated."

Sounds like a typical DL thread. Between that and the capacity for lacerations, I think they should become DL's spirit fowl.

Marry me r122

Patrick is hot in this! Is there a scene in a later episode where he explores homosexuality as a way to handle the step-mom’s death?

Yes, R124. Many!

So the son is gay too? It appeared he was trying to hide his stiffy from his friend in the bathroom stall.

So I live in this city. I was working at Whole Foods when MP was released and was checking out after work when MP was also checking out. The bagger was a sweet 18 yr old girl with autism and she spotted him.

In her loudest cheeriest voice she exclaimed, 'Hey, I know you. You're that guy who killed his wife!'

He fled while the rest of us nearly peed our pants.

I seriously believe the owl did it.

An Owl Named Michael by Agatha Christie.

Owl Capone

Owl My Children

Owls Do Cry

Why do gay men think they have the right to trap women into sham, often abusive, loveless marriages?

He was bi, not gay.

R133, this one particular guy seemed to think he had the right to do anything. And he’s gotten away with it.

[quote] Why do gay men think they have the right to trap women into sham, often abusive, loveless marriages?

She wasn't "trapped." She was the breadwinner and, IMO, he's obviously a windbag drama queen. She could have kicked him to the curb. No, she didn't deserve to get murdered.

[quote]Why do gay men think they have the right to trap women into sham, often abusive, loveless marriages?

Why do straight/bi women think they have the right to do the same thing via pregnancy?

^^^ Both of you are right. And pretty, too, I'm sure.

They got the look of most of the characters amazingly accurate. Parker Posey looks exactly like Freda Black.

The homely lesbian daughter looks exactly like the person she’s portraying.

^^She absolutely does r140. It's uncanny.

[quote]She could have kicked him to the curb.

R136, it's quite possible that is what she finally tried to do on 9 December 2001.

They do say that supposedly the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she attempts to leave. I only know the outline of this story and have seen bits and pieces of the documentary. He seemed weirdly snide and smirky. Was she supporting him financially?

[QUOTE] Was she supporting him financially?

Yes. And she was also floating his wayward sons. (The hot one had some kind of fledgling website I’m 2001.)

*in

.

The plans that night 8 December 2001 (Saturday) tentatively included watching America's Sweethearts starring Catherine Zeta-Jones (who I'm sure was about "25" or so at the time). At 9:45 PM, Michael and Kathleen were sharing a bottle of wine (per Todd and friend). At 10:40 PM, someone logged onto the computer, likely Kathleen. At 11:08 PM, Kathleen took the work call from Helen regarding the 10 AM next day meeting (Sunday). Helen overheard her asking for Michael's email address, which Kathleen then provided. Helen testified that Kathleen was quite coherent during their talk (no slurring of words, etc). The call ended with the understanding that she would have to check Michael's email account for the email that night. At 11:53 PM, the email arrives, but the attachment is never opened.

It's possible that after the call, between 11:15 - 11:45-ish, she perused his email. It's possible that Kathleen was already starting to get suspicious of him having affairs, as he used QuickClean to remove hundreds of files from his hard-drive earlier that day. Only, Michael didn't think to check his "sent mail" file, where there might be illicit correspondence to other men still hanging around. Perhaps Kathleen stumbled upon them.

Perhaps Michael drunkenly gave Kathleen his email and then quickly realised it was a mistake. She discovered/substantiated his secret life. His life as he knew it (the writing and political careers, his wife helping with his campaign, his side affairs, the mansion he lived in, the dinners, etc) was finished. His instinct was to kill her, because there was no way she was going to put up with this after all that she had done for him and his sons, his stepdaughters (he also brought them into the marriage), as well as all of the sacrifices she has made. She said they were finished. The memory of Ratliff's death is in his unconscious (people can die at the foot of stairs) when she comes down the stairs to confront him, and he's ready with the blow poke. He bludgeons her to death.

Afterwards, all he knows is now his story has to involve him finding her like that, even though he has no idea who else could have done it. He cleans and hides the blow poke. He decides to make two calls to 9-1-1. The first will be to "establish life" (without thinking, he probably thought it would look better to find her "alive"). The followup will be to embellish his concern for his wife. Etc. What he doesn't realise is that the first call at 2:41 AM would be contradicted by what the paramedics ascertained at 2:47 AM: that she had probably been deceased for hours. And it seems likely that she probably died in the 11 o'clock hour (even though her time of death is officially some time after that).

It's not a very convincing story, but it's all he has in a moment of passion and "survival." There are no signs of a break-in. Perhaps he was secretly hoping this would be the road the police would travel down. This man, whose wife just "died," goes to check his email a few hours later (by 5 AM) and mumbles to himself. Of course he goes to his computer. It is basically the very thing which brought down his entire life.

This scenario best fits Occam's Razor, as the logic supports this by a long mile more than:

-A drunken accident. Per Helen at 11:08 PM, Kathleen speaks normally and professionally after drinking wine with a BAL of 0.07, when an accident would have had to have happened in the next 45 minutes.

-A vengeful owl. All that was found on Kathleen were micro-feathers which could have fallen on her whilst drinking wine out by the pool. Why didn't Michael hear screams? If she was attacked outside, surely he would. If she was attacked inside, surely there would be large feathers littered about the house.

Watching the Netflix doc. First, I’m not sure I could so cavalierly participate in a documentary right after my spouse died. Second, never mind bisexual- they guy seems gayer than a Christmas fruitcake.

Yup. Gay, not bisexual.

I'm re-watching the docu so i can compare it to the HBO lmtd series

R127 Funny! Fank you!

Two words for OP; Occam razor.

They have proven Michael couldn't have heard anything by the pool, and the blow poke was not the murder weapon.

^^you really can't hear anything by the pool with that waterfall; that was proven in the docu.

I wonder if he ever had sex with the hot son?

[quote]They have proven Michael couldn't have heard anything by the pool...with that waterfall; that was proven in the docu.

No one ever proved there was anything for Peterson to have heard, R153. There were no screams. No signs of a break-in. And no large owl feathers left behind after a violent attack.

“The problem with the feather is that it’s only a partial barb,” Dove said. “It could be that it’s an owl or it could be that it’s a duck or some other bird that is used to stuff pillows or clothing. It was unidentifiable.”

At 11:08 PM, Kathleen ended an unremarkable, professional phone conversation with a colleague with a BAL of 0.07%. Forty-five minutes later, she had failed to open the attachment in an email sent to her husband's account with the expectation that she would.

She was too busy being bludgeoned to death at the foot of the stairs.

I liked in the mini series the way they speculated she could have *fallen*. It was like watching a Peter Griffin clip.

I'm so into the series! Can't wait to finish it and rewatch the doc.

Margaret is definitely Michael Peterson's daughter.

^^r158 i completely agree with you. Her long face shape and prominent nose...she looks EXACTLY like her brothers who are MP's only supposed biological children.

I think it was done by Captain Peterson on the staircase with an owl.

I think the ex wife did it. She seems strange and guilty. I think she was jealous after all those years. And not only did she bludgeon Kathleen with blow poke she sexually assaulted her with it too. She then went off to her hotel room to watch an we episode of Baywatch.

Is Parker Posey suffering from long covid? She needed too many pauses before she could finish a sentence. And she sounded so out of breath.

Is Michael Peterson a sociopath? He fucked around with men all over town and still wanted to run for an office? Was he pathological deranged?

He had blood splatter on the inside of his shorts legs. He's guilty.

R161 has got a point. The real problem legally was that neither side had an argument that couldn't be challenged. Do we know what happened to the children?

Peterson’s lawyer was good at throwing up doubt. Many of the experts didn’t seem very prepared for opposing questions.

Did Caitlyn ever reconcile with her half siblings?

You mean step-siblings, R167. Half-siblings share a parent.

Ugh. It’s grotesquely compelling, but Colin Firth’s accent is atrocious and is hampering any kind of performance he can give.

I'm riveted to the series yet can't help but wonder if I hadn't watched the doc (years ago) would I be able to follow it all? It takes so long to establish all the family relationships (sisters, step-sisters, half-sisters, brother's wives & girl friends, aunts, step-parents, etc) and, IIRC, MP's earlier time and predicament in Germany is related far sooner in the doc. Curious what others who haven't watched the doc think.

And while I think Colin Firth is OK, he just isn't really getting the sly cockiness and entitlement of MP, and making him a little too dignified, attractive and intelligent. But perhaps that's the mini-series' intention to make him seem, at least initially, more innocent to viewers?

And gotta ask: why the awful wigs on Stulbarg and Collette? I find them more distracting than helpful in trying to create a likeness to the real people.

That’s true, R170, Peterson is one of those guys who you’d like to punch in the face. He’s annoying to listen to.

I just watched the NF docu and found the real Michael Peterson very manipulative and conniving. I guess the HBO series wanted to make him a better human being, thus more sympathetic.

Okay okay did Caitlyn ever reconcile with her step siblings?

R172, Manipulative sociopaths read differently in a fictional landscape. That is why the HBO series is si brilliant to me. The charm and facade is slowly being peeled away. The brother suspects Michael might be guilty and that scene with the 2 outside the house is really quite effective. Michael loses his control and shows what a selfish prick he is.

R133, Why troll and make this a symptom of all gay men. Most bisexual husbands are not murderous psychopaths.

While the rest of the Peterson family appears close, Atwater’s bid for closure seems to still involve a separation from the others.

Tried watching episode 1 but it's so damn boring. Granted I was in 5th grade when this happened so maybe that's why I'm not impressed with this show since I've never heard of this case.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

I’ve never seen Patrick Schwarzenegger act in anything. I only know him from DL gossip, really. He’s actually not a bad actor.

Because she was the main bread winner. He'd be broke without her. I don't know how true to life the show is vs real life, but it also seemed like she coddled and mothered him and his children. He was a selfish loser.

R179 He's not and he's fkin hot. I want to fuck him senseless.

Patrick seems like a stilted actor. I only started this show to see him. That was a mistake. Maybe his brother in-law can give him some one-on-one training. Preferably nude.

R180, he never got the insurance money, either, after all of that.

I heard Toni Collette is a twat in real life

R184 = Mandy Patinkin

[quote]I love the actors involved, but what the fuck? Why is an American story almost solely cast with Brits and an Australian? Colin Firth sounds ridiculous.

That is why it will be so sweet after the conservatives take over and kick out all of the foreigners from Hollywood. Conservatives are all about America/Americans first, whereas liberals seem to care more about foreigners/illegal immigrants.. It has become much more apparent in the past decade.

So Colin Firth is an illegal immigrant? Hmm..ok.

I can’t wait until R186 collapses into his prolapsed anus.

Did Michael Peterson have a face lift or some bad cosmetic eye surgery before Kathleen's murder? His wrinkled skin looks so oddly stretched. Was he dying his hair? All that alone would have put off a jury.

R189, IMO, he obviously had facial plastic surgery. Very pulled-looking, including the eyes. Hair looks odd as well. He's a psychopath.

After bingeing the first 3 episodes last night I started watching the doc again this morning and, believe me, it is so much more riveting to see and hear all the real people!

Colin Firth’s accent sounds exactly like Michael Peterson - who speaks like he’s feigning some kind of “cultured southern intellectual” identity. Pompous.

r192 very correct. everyone complaining about how his "accent is horrible" has obviously not watched the docu to know that is EXACTLY how MP sounds. I will say that Colin (so far in the 3 eps i've seen) hasn't hit the nail on the head with his characterization. i went back last night and binged the documentary and notice that MP has this insouciance, mini-blurting out things at times and weird sing-songy thing he does when he talks.

But so far, i think he's doing a really good job. Toni C is always great in whatever she does, but really...what do we have to know if she's hitting her character of Kathleen? Not much vid footage in the docu to show her demeanor, etc. Lots of very happy, loved up pics but not a lot to show her true personality.

I really do hope at some point the show flips the switch and shows the audience it’s just as (if not more) plausible that Michael killed her.

Didn't think Patrick Schwarzenegger was bad at all.

I wonder why the mini-series turned local lawyer and loyal family friend Ron Guerette from the real-life white haired and mustached hot daddy into the young black schlub?

Didn't he enjoy hooking up with random guys at the gym?

[QUOTE] I really do hope at some point the show flips the switch and shows the audience it’s just as (if not more) plausible that Michael killed her.

Oh, they absolutely will.

It’s a bit creepy that they didn’t clean up the blood for so long.

R199, IIRC, they wanted it to remain as a crime scene. (Defense did.)

Yes, I think this guy killed his wife. That corrupt forensic guy was the last nail in the coffin for the prosecution.

You mean the Asian guy, R200?

R201, someone upthread mentioned it was Duane Deaver (not Asian as far as I can tell) and I'm pretty sure that's correct.

Excuse me, r201...Henry Lee (who testified for the Defense) is NOT corrupt. He is a well-known and respected professional in his field and has been featured on DOZENS of true crime shows.

Duane Deaver is the idiot here, the one that fabricated evidence and used stupid test techniques just so he could get a blood spot on the inside of his shorts/pants. He's the corrupt one and was shown to fabricate evidence against a defendant in SEVERAL cases. He was fired for his lying in this and several other cases.

Henry Lee has plenty of issues. There are plenty of experts, even ones who should know better, who will say whatever they are paid to say, regardless of what the facts are

Peterson is 100% guilty, in fact. And he also 100% deserved exoneration, legally, given the open corruption of the prosecution in his tainted trial. America — learn how it’s designed to work.

Todd Peterson spilling all the tea

yeah, r206...he sounds reliable and completely rational.

FYI - About 5 months later, he uploaded a pic of his Dad sitting on the couch and watching tv together.

If an actor had the look down and accent right for Peterson, they'd end up sounding like a morose John C. McGinley from "Scrubs," and no one would take it seriously. Sometimes you have to tone it down.

He settled a $25 million dollar wrongful death suit with Kathleen's daughter.

Does that sound like something an innocent person would do?

Of which, she'll never get a penny.

R206 - sounds more like he got screwed out of some inheritance money and was pissed about it. It wouldn’t hurt, either, to float that out there and see if he got a book deal or something. Like dad, like son.

I think MP is guilty, but I can’t say the documentary explains how, or leaves me with a clear understanding how. If I watched only the documentary, I’d have to concede there is doubt. Particularly with what’s revealed about Deaver. The guilty verdict obviously hinged on Deaver, and likely the sordidness of having bisexual affairs.

R211, was he having any affairs with women or only men?

R212 - what does it matter? He’s obviously had sex with women, too.

The ex wife said he was screwing both men and women when they were in Germany.

Yeah, but he wasn't scheduling meetings with female prostitutes

What’s your point, R215?

While he was married to Kathleen, it was only affairs with MEN.

Who plays Brent the marine hustler? He's a friend of mine and a lot of fun....he loves to talk about the case and enjoys being noticed..... And he is nice looking and hung. Married to a man now and no longer escorting.

Peterson has had a long-term romantic relationship with Sophie Brunet, one of the editors of the documentary. It’s one of many fucked-up but little known facts about that whole enterprise and its core biases.

He had a years long affair with the female documentary editor. She even flew in from Europe every few months to see him in prison.

R206 He's broken sobriety, can't stand still for a second, now blames his father for the recent death of his mother. Watching one or two of the other #toddpeterson YT videos it's clear he's a racist lunatic who believes he's the most famous person in the Raleigh Durham area, and is ready to advocate for aggrieved white men everywhere.

Are any family members profiting from the hbo series?

Peterson and his sons are loons

Sounds like he was just using the documentary editor. Probably cheated on her with hustlers

R206 What's the 6th most dangerous city in the world he keeps mentioning?

[quote] Parker Posey is cast PERFECTLY. I can't wait for her, "He was a BYE-sex-sue-ahl." scene.

Freda did have the most egregious accent. among other things.

Freda looks like every drunk woman I know who thinks more eyeliner makes her look less drunk.

The "romantic relationship" with the film editor is just evidence that Peterson's relationships with women were opportunistic and exploitive.

The older Peterson son, Clayton, planted a bomb in a classroom at Duke. (It didn’t detonate.) He did 4 years in federal prison for it, BEFORE the death of Kathleen Peterson. Not a peep about it in the doc, though it’s been vaguely alluded to in the HBO Max series already. That entire family is a train wreck.

Yikes! That video of Todd at r206 is just sad sad sad.....

[quote] Clayton, planted a bomb in a classroom at Duke

I think it was an Administration bldg. Like any self-respecting radical.

I didn't know about Dennis Rowe

That's a bit of a SPOILER at R230, but thanks for sharing.

When Margaret and Martha.’s mother died of a freak aneurysm they were an infant and toddler. How long were they alone and unattended before someone discovered what had happened. Was it days?

Margaret is Michael's favorite child and the only one he wanted to adopt. Martha was just part of the package.

Is this the company Kathleen worked for? If they were Canadian why did they have such large headquarters in NC?

This is the third high profile Peterson murderer, making for a Peterson trifecta.

The Deceased:

Kathleen Peterson (December 2001) Laci Peterson (December 2002) Kathleen Savio (March 2004)

Shit, if I ever moved in with him, I'd make sure it was a ranch-style house.

R236 Ah the Bloody Oughts, I remember them fondly.

How many fucking times can this story be told? Who is making the big bucks on this over-telling the same story?

[quote]How long were they alone and unattended before someone discovered what had happened. Was it days?

They were sleepind, and the housekeeper found the body of Liz Ratliff in the morning. But Michael was the last person to see her alive. Too many coincidences, I guess.

R240 Thanks, so really no worse then the Sylvia Plath children.

R249 I see Opera written all over this story, but they’ll need to cut down the number of children or make them some type of Greek Chorus.

Apparently I get blackout drunk and do fucked up stuff- Que sera, sera!

Episode 3 has been out for a week, so not much of a spoiler. The backstory on Rowe and Lacour is interesting as is the connection to the wife.

The Research Triangle area has a good deal of information technology---SAS, the big software company is based there and and both Duke and UNC, as well as the state affiliated Research Triangle Institute do big data work. It's not in the same league as Rt 128 or Silicon Valley but it's a stable second/third string tech area that does boring stuff that would have been related to Nortel's mission and state or local government might have been dumb enough to give an unstable company like them a subsidy. FWIW, A friend who lived in the area for awhile characterized it as having a lot of gay right wing computer engineers. The friend also wasn't crazy about the small town cliche-ishness of the gay community.

Where did the prosecution get all their money for the experts, body exhumation and other stuff they throw at this trial? It must have financially ruined the county?

In the documentary, and the series, it looks like the lawyers basically set up offices in the Petersons home. This can not be standard practice, where was that coming from? Was it done for the documentary alone?

He's guilty all right

As an author I’m assuming Michael wrote is own book about this, is it worth reading?

I don’t understand how his children get all their time off from college and jobs to attend the trial?

The series blow poke seems like a much larger one then the actual one. Did they have a septic tank on the property? Maybe he dropped it down inside there? Or was it just an unwelcome present they got rid of days after receiving?

I guess one uses what's handy in the moment as a weapon to commit murder, but seeing the blow poke passed around to the jury to handle in the documentary, I was struck by how light weight it was. I would have thought a cast iron skillet from the kitchen would have been more effective.

Did I miss something or did both the mini-series and the documentary never explore why the two Peterson dogs weren't alerted by Kathleen's screaming?

Verifcatia of sizemeat?

[QUOTE] The series blow poke seems like a much larger one then the actual one. Did they have a septic tank on the property? Maybe he dropped it down inside there? Or was it just an unwelcome present they got rid of days after receiving?

I remember in the Forensic Files on the Peterson case, they theorize that Todd Peterson got rid of the blow-pole thing. There were drips of blood on the front front platoon that could have been cast off dripping off of an instrument like that.

Here's a great article examining the case--including info on stuff left out of the documentary. Even if he did murder her (I never thought he did), the level of corruption and bias involved in his prosecution should have given him complete exoneration. If this can happen to a wealthy white guy, just imagine the level of systemic abuse is aimed at people of color and those who don't have the $$$ for a proper defense.

^ What abuse? The reason he's free right now is because he's a right white man. He did it. It wasn't a fucking owl.

IS the son who was getting the boner in the bathroom a gay homosexualist?

The prosecution did bungle the case.

However, also true, Peterson ultimately went free because he had the privilege of access to the legal team he had. A black man in Durham tried for murder like that would have probably stayed in jail, because he wouldn’t have been able to get that defence team.

Also, those who are sticking with the owl, can you please explain why there were no large feathers left behind after such a violent attack. Also, why wouldn’t Kathleen’s screams alert the dogs. The evidence using Occam’s Razor points directly to Michael Peterson, especially if you apply the circumstantial elements. Just because Deaver manipulated the simulation and lied on stand doesn’t mean Kathleen wasn’t bludgeoned to death with the blow poke. The defence also eventually abandoned the theory that it was an accident and she fell, which is what they based their original approach on (that’s where a lot of the money went; these experts weren’t working pro-bono).

Let’s not ignore that Michael cleaned up the crime scene and the paramedics stated Kathleen had been dead for hours. He had stated that she had been alive just seven minutes before (a lie).

“Do you like our owl?”

At R256, what happened? Looks like he got roasted on a spit.

^^^ To much time in the sauna cruising guys.

The series is clearly putting a vicious bat in the attic as a possible murder suspect. But I don't remember a bat being discussed in the documentary.

Wouldn't a bat's claws have been a possible explanation of the lacerations on Kathleen's scalp? Was a bat ever really brought up in court?

Call me crazy maybe but I'm getting quite a crush on defense attorney mensch David Rudolf as I rewatch the doc years later. He seemed to wise up and groom and dress himself better as the filming went on and on. Hot man!

Defense attorney is attractive, I admit. However, he dyes his hair (on his head) and then has this white beard. Pick a color, buddy.

You know what I forgot all about the dogs. He defenitely murdered her. I believe the younger son helped him clean up and stage things too.

R170, I'm so glad you brought up the bad wigs, they are so distracting that's all I think about when the characters are on screen.

There wasn’t a preponderance of evidence supporting his guilt - it’s all circumstantial. Maybe better investigators and prosecutors could have come up with more plausible reasons, but they did things such as rely on a supposed murder weapon that the police found, photographed… and left behind? Bizarre case.

Most murder cases are "circumstantial"

Lashing out at the cops and prosecutors is all the Peterson defenders have

R269- get the fuck outta here. The case was circumstantial and later found to be full of inconsistencies. While a lot of people might be found guilty based on circumstantial evidence, there exists a great deal of doubt in this matter brought on by the dubiousness of the prosecutors and investigators. That doesn’t mean people are defending Peterson - they’re defending due process. You can’t just have a “feeling” that someone’s guilty without plausibility, and that plausibility shouldn’t be contaminated to the degree it was here.

R270, this is DL not a court of law. We don't have to pretend he was innocent

I don’t recall anyone saying he is, R271.

[Quote] "The classic “hoot” call is not the only sound owls make. Many owls have a wide range of vocal sounds, including hisses, whistles, screeches, screams, and purrs. Owls will also use bill clacks for communication, especially when agitated."

[Quote] Sounds like a typical DL thread. Between that and the capacity for lacerations, I think they should become DL's spirit fowl.

Your post inspired me, R122. 🦉

The calls of the owl. Definite DL ornithological mascot. Each of these calls match up distinctly to various types of DL posters.

Ex. "MARY!" would be the first call.

[quote] There wasn’t a preponderance of evidence supporting his guilt - it’s all circumstantial.

The criminal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt (not preponderance). Also, circumstantial evidence can be compelling. For example, in a sexual assault case. If the defendant claims to have never met the victim, but somehow, there's his semen (and DNA) in her vagina, that semen is circumstantial evidence. Nobody (except the victim and the defendant) saw the sexual assault happening. The semen (with DNA analysis) in vagina is a circumstance the a jury can find compelling.

R274 ... defendant claims to never have met the victim but his semen is in her vagina ... is circumstantial? That's about as direct as evidence can get.

R275, it's circumstantial in that nobody has to say: "I saw him depositing semen into the woman's vagina." The location of the semen and "circumstances" speak for itself. So, if you just pretend the woman's dead and can't testify that Defendant raped her, then the location of the semen (and DNA) would, indeed, be circumstantial.

[Bold]The owl theory sounds really plausible in this article.[/bold]

This article.....

So I'm watching the documentary, loving it, and into Episode 10.....but when is owl concept introduced? Peterson is already into his re-trial and there's been no mention of owls.

This was the first time I'd ever seen Sophie turner do a role in a non-fantasy series or movie. it was so weird to see her with normal colored hair for once.

The owl theory was introduced by the Peterson's neighbor and attorney, Larry Pollard. The theory suggests a barred Owl (a common bird in Durham, North Carolina) swooped down onto Kathleen, becoming entangled in her hair and ripping out part of her scalp. Kathleen was able to remove the bird from her hair, and went inside to, perhaps, tend to her wounds. However, a disoriented Kathleen fell down the stairs to her death before she was able to. If you think this theory is super far fetched — it's actually not. Kathleen was found holding three small feathers in her hands, which could be consistent with attempting to untangle an owl from one's hair. Pine needles were reportedly stuck to her hand. Her injuries were also reportedly consistent with an owl attack. "When you look at her injuries, they do appear consistent with being made by an owl’s talons,” Peterson’s defense attorney Mary Jude Darrow told Audubon. In fact, she told the outlet that it was perhaps because the theory sounds so farfetched she chose not to include it at trial.

I don't think the owl theory was introduced during any of the trials. Definitely not during the 1st trial.

Kathleen's injuries look like deep tears not wounds made with a blunt instrument. There was no damage to her skull or brain tissue.

It's possible she was attacked by an owl but Michael let her lie there and bleed to death.

"Kathleen was found holding three small feathers in her hands, which could be consistent with attempting to untangle an owl from one's hair."

The feathers were microscopic and could have just blown into her hair when she was outside. They weren't even proven to have come from an owl

It's an odd show because it seems to be aimed mostly towards people already familiar with the case. I had never seen the original documentary series nor read about it before, so in the first episode I was very confused by the family relations: I could not figure out who were the actual birth parents of which children, nor what the birth order of the children was.

Michael Peterson is such a larger-than-life character in so many ways that that confuses things even further. I can;t figure out whether Colin firth is good or not in the title role because Peterson was (is?) such a consummate actor--always being different things to different people.

In some ways the actual murder is less interesting than the problems of the family--they were so dysfunctional though they acted like they were so happy to one another when together.

I'm very impressed with Patrick Schwarzenegger and (especially) Toni Colette, who is playing a role a bit atypical for her as an ostensibly normal person.

R285 is correct.

And R272, in this thread, there are multiple people asserting the owl did it, not Peterson. So, I do recall people in this thread claiming his innocence.

And then you have people like R281 transposing “microscopic” to “small” and leaving out that they could have come from a down comforter, all the while ignoring that there were no large feathers left behind after a violent attack which resulted in someone’s death, as well as the dogs not being alerted by Kathleen’s screams. But, let me guess … the owl had one of his talons shoved down Kathleen’s throat, which is why the dogs didn’t respond to her screams.

Honestly … one just has to shake their head over the suspension of disbelief some are partaking in here.

[quote] Kathleen was found holding three small feathers in her hands

This is the first recounting that I remember hearing mention of a pine needle in between her fingers. They seem to make special note of it in the autopsy. Wondering now if it will turn out to be significant.

For anyone who like me who didn't know :

"The remaining (5) episodes will be released once a week through Thursday, June 9."

I'm assuming that means on Thursdays.

y'all weren't lying...twinkie Schwarzenegger is impressing me in this

brent walgamfidorkrkr is ugly as fuck IRL

[quote] Schwarzenegger is impressing me in this

He's good. The actual Todd Peterson was still way better looking at the time.

I think he did and hes so psychopathic i honestly think he just beat her head against one of the end of the stair tips a few times, and then just left her to bleed to death. It wouldn't surprised me if a put a few owl or bird feathers there to throw off investigators. However I don't think it was premeditated so that last theory is probably not true.

Even if Michael did it, I'm surprised the dogs didn't do any barking because she wouldn't have taken such a beating silently and they would understand one of their owners was hurting the other. It actually makes me think Michael really *was* outside, away from what was happening to her and that is why the the dogs were too preoccupied to notice if she fell/was attacked.

The sauna scene had a Kubrick feel to it. Just wish it had gone on longer, and gotten weirder.

The daughter Caitlin doesn't think her mother's a drunk, but months/weeks before she dies, she jumps into a pool at a cocktail party and practically breaks her neck. The only non-boozers in the bunch are the adopted daughters.

R295 sounds like the people who are trying to pretend she was falling down drunk at the time of her death when she wasn't legally intoxicated

Make Kathleen look like a drunk while pretending Michael was a saint

r296, She may not have been legally drunk, but anytime u mix a valium with alcohol one's behavior and balance can be like mirror drunkeness. Its all moot nayway because he murdered her. There is no logical explanation how she could have fallen producing those injuries.

R296 Hardly. I think he's guilty as sin. And that the family has issues with the use of alcohol.

They have Toni Collette’s Kathleen REALLY putting away the drinks so it is being emphasized.

The earlier part of the scene that ends with her jumping into the swimming pool and injuring herself, she’s downing an almost full glass of champagne (that she just poured) and then quickly pours herself a full one before joining the party. And Michael is constantly refilling her wine glass while she cooks.

R298, if anyone had issues it was Michael and the sons he raised, not Kathleen and her daughter

Am I the only one who had never heard the term "blow poke" until this case?

It sounds like a sex act.

All TV miniseries from now on should involve Toni Colette being ominously stalked by an evil owl.

I've never heard the term "blow poke" either.

In the documentary Kathleen's sister goes on and on about the blow poke like it's the greatest Christmas gift ever. 🙄 You just know they threw it in the basement and never gave it a second thought.

"It is kind of weird that both our mothers died at the bottom of staircases..."

--Martha to Margaret

I love how campy Antonio Campos realizes this whole thing is.

Kathleen's sister was a harridan.

Is the director Antonio Campos gay? He seems like he might be in the post episode clips.

If I had to listen to Fredda Black speak in that grating voice in a courtroom for days on end, I'D be the one committing homicide with a blow poke.

Pure-Tee-Filth!

I really hate the real Kathleen’s snooty, cunty blonde sister.

[quote]She may not have been legally drunk, but anytime u mix a valium with alcohol one's behavior and balance can be like mirror drunkeness. Its all moot nayway because he murdered her. There is no logical explanation how she could have fallen producing those injuries.

R297, except we have Helen's account of her conversation with Kathleen at 11:07 PM. Helen testified under oath that Kathleen conducted herself in a normal manner. If the valium mixed in with the alcohol to the point of affecting Kathleen's motor and sensory skills, there would have been some indication of that in the conversation, which there wasn't. Kathleen was likely dead within the next 45 minutes, as the attachment she was expected to open in the email went unattended.

[quote] All TV miniseries from now on should involve Toni Colette

That first part nearly seems to already be the case.

It's rare for me that I'm enjoying a miniseries far more than the Datalounge thread about it (usually it's vice-versa). But then I rarely enjoy threads going over a notorious murder with self-appointed Sherlock Holmeses and Jessica Fletchers arguing whether or not someone did it or not--all the information is not available to you, so it's just dull armchair sleuthing, and it's not even really about the miniseries.

What I've loved so far about the actual series is that Antonio Campos understands how perfect this family looked from the outside and how bizarre they were as an extended dysfunctional family, and how truly messed up this case is with the bizarre theories being advanced for how Kathleen died. So part of the fun is that he makes them all potentially true: having the ominous owl noises around Kathleen in her final weeks is absolutely hilarious, plus we also see what an insane liar Michael was so we can never trust him or anything he does. And everyone in the family seems to be crazy one way or another, with patricia (Trini Alvarado) saying inappropriate things and Kathkleen's sister (Rosemarie DeWitt) almost hysterical with her obsession that Michael did it, and the aunt of Caitlyn claiming that God talks to her directly.

I also love how kinky he makes the family. I was not expecting to see Michael toss Kathleen's salad in the kitchen (especially after watching Freda tell her legal team she had no idea whether or not that would be enjoyable), nor him giving the handjob to the extremely hot mechanic in the porn store booth. I was even less prepared for the hilarious scene with Todd (Patrick Schwarzenegger) at the bar when it was clear he wanted to kiss and go down on the handsome guy he was doing coke with in the bathroom stall (and that he was hiding an erection from him).

What's so poignant about the whole thing is how this messed-up family dynamic made the children all feel so lost and vulnerable. Martha and Margaret are desperate to believe Michael but they have absolutely no other parents, having lost their biological parents and Kathleen. The boys still have their mother, but she's crazy. Caitlyn is the only one who has a functional loving father, so she was the only one so far who could break away from Michael--and of course he immediately cast her out forever without trying to talk to her.

Why didn’t families claim and raise Martha and Margaret? Who lets the German military base neighbors just adopt the kids when there were two branches of the family that could have raised them?

Michael’s like a CIA operative or some type of deep state fixer right? That bumbling professor/writer routine is all a cover. How else could they have afforded that house, all those kids and their colleges and bail and fancy lawyers? Why didn’t the government help extract him from this, or did they set him up to get rid of him? I think there’s a whole other yet to be revealed layer to this story that I hope the miniseries ends with.

r315, the miniseries has been quite clear that it's all paid for with Kathleen's money. She was an extremely high-paid top executive at Nortel. Michael is pretty much an eccentric trophy husband gone to seed in late middle age.

I think we will absolutely be seeing the prosecution’s version of events which will include Kathleen confronting Michael about the gay porn and emails and him snapping and beating her to death.

[quote] You just know they threw it in the basement and never gave it a second thought.

It was found in the garage in a dark corner, covered with cobwebs, I believe. But there were photos of the living room fireplace where you could see the blow poke in the background at some point in the past, which is what the prosecution relied on as evidence of the existence of the blow poke.

[quote]Michael’s like a CIA operative or some type of deep state fixer right?

The fact that his neighbor in Germany, Capt. George Ratliff, died mysteriously in the military and the government still won't tell the family the details of his death makes that seem plausible. Peterson said Ratliff had a heart attack during the invasion of Grenada, but others say he died in Panama doing work involving the planning of the invasion.

But then Peterson's own comments about being in the CIA make him sound like a liar, so who knows.

I also love the scene where Michael is going on and on about the gift of the blow poke.

MICHAEL: "Who gives as a Christmas gift implements for the fireplace? especially only one??"

*pause*

TODD: "But a blow poke is pretty cool though..."

There's usually a "cooling off " period after CIA service after which you can disclose certain things, but most people don't discuss their service until long after ward. They often find people jobs for a couple years after they leave CIA because that provides a way of keeping an eye on them and enables a transition to normal life. Often it involves teaching at a friendly college or university or some corporate gig.

I went to a prestigious public high school in Northern Virginia and there were several of my fellow students whose parents had extremely vague-sounding jobs. One guy’s dad was gone for long stretches of time. We all just assumed they were CIA.

Oh god, the cunt blonde sister is going off in the appeal about victims rights and the assigned prosecutor.

Once you've been in the CIA you are ALWAYS in the CIA.

And fireplace pokers are rarely sold as individual items. They are nearly always part of a set.

Is there a YouTube video of where they all are now? Did any of the kids become lawyers inspired by trial or to seek justice for their dad?

Todd became a major drunk and drug addict and now thinks that his father did in fact murder Kathleen.

[quote]Why didn’t families claim and raise Martha and Margaret?

I believe it was in the Ratliffs' will that they wanted the Petersons to take care of their daughters if anything should happen to them.

The victim's sister has a point, but none of you want to admit it, because you want this murder case to be an entertaining show for you to watch and talk about and have fun with.

She's right in the documentary when she says no one involved in the production actually cared that a real woman was brutally killed. Everyone treated it like a game.

It is perfectly understandable for her to be livid about the whole thing. She never asked for this, and now she's being painted as the one true villain in this story, which is absolutely ridiculous.

[quote] And fireplace pokers are rarely sold as individual items. They are nearly always part of a set.

Perhaps. But the show has been quite clear Candace (Kathleen's sister played by Rosemarie de Witt) gave both Kathleen and Lori (the other sister) individual blow pokes (without the rest of a fireplace set) as Christmas presents one year.

I'm surprised Datalounge has not talked much either about the scene where Colin Firth rims Toni Colette in the kitchen (something I never expected to see done so graphically) nor the scene where Patrick Schwarzenegeer does blow in the bar men's room and it's made so clear he's sexually attracted to the other guy.

Why do so many keep calling her sister a cunt and what exactly is homophobic about not accepting your married 50 yr old sister would not have accepted her husband hooking up with the other guys.

I'm having some trouble figuring out the family relationships.

So, if I'm clear: Michael's two biological sons are Clayton and Todd, which he had with crazy Patricia.

When Michael and Patricia were stationed in Germany for his work with the Marines, they became close with a couple named the Ratliffs. Mr. Ratliff was also in the Marines and died a mysterious death through his military service, and Mrs. Ratliff supposedly had an aneurysm (but may also have been killed by Michael) and fell down a staircase and died. The Ratliffs asked in their will that their daughters, Margaret and Martha, be raised by Michael and Patricia Peterson. After this happened, Patricia and Michael divorced, and he raised the two boys and Margaret and Martha (whom he legally adopted). Margaret and Martha see Kathleen (his secodn wife) as their adopted mother and address her as "Mom" when the show starts.

Kathleen's biological daughter with her first husband is Caitlyn. Kathleen divorced her first husband, who also lives in Durham). When the show starts with the death of Kathleen, Caitlyn and Martha (and also Margaret?) are all off at college; Clayton lives in town; Todd lives at home with Kathleen and Michael.

Kathleen is quite close until the time of her death with Margaret and Martha, who call her "Mom" and love her as if she were their actual mother. Margaret and Martha are also close with Caitlyn, but not as close as they are with one another. Kathleen is closest of all with Caitlyn, her biological daughter, and she tells her things she tells no one else. Caitlyn is close with Michael before the death of Kathleen, but she always addresses him as "Michael" and not as "Dad" because her own father in living. Kathleen is not as close with the boys as she is with the girls because their mother is living, and they address her while she is living as "Kathleen." Todd is closer to Kathleen than Clay is because Clay is an even bigger fuck-up. Am I right in saying that the boys did not go to college, but all three of the girls did?

The five children see themselves as siblings to one another until Caitlyn breaks away from the other four after she sees the horrible puncture wounds on Kathleen's scalp, which indicate she was not killed by the fall down the stairs.

Clayton and Todd both have had business failures by the time of Kathleen's death, and Clayton has done time in jail.

I am not entirely sure of the birth order of all five children, but Clayton seems to be the oldest of the five and Martha seems to be the youngest.

Is all that correct?

R330: Read R313

Thanks for the recap R332. Which is the daughter with lesbian relationship going on?

Around the time of the murder/accident several people in the neighborhood were attacked by owls, so the owl theory isn’t totally crazy.

I was confused there, r334. I think it's Martha who is having the lesbian relationship at college with the Black girl. But maybe it's Caitlyn?

It’s Martha, R336.

R335, by "attacked" I'm guessing you mean they had really mild injuries.

R332, Clayton is the oldest, then Todd, then Margaret, then Caitlyn, then Martha. I believe both of the boys did go to college. Todd was expelled from Duke for planting a bomb, then I think he went to NC State

^ correction it was Clayton not Todd who was expelled

R335, the other “owl attacks” were said to be on joggers, with no apparent reported injuries. That makes sense: the joggers were outdoors and moving in an apparently aggressive way through the owls’ turf. None of that is true in the case of Kathleen.

[quote] Around the time of the murder/accident several people in the neighborhood were attacked by owls, so the owl theory isn’t totally crazy.

No, it's indeed totally crazy. There have been cases where owls have attacked humans, but there has never been a case in recorded history where an owl has actually killed a human being.

The whole owl theory was part of the theatrics the defense was trying to inject into what was a very obvious case.

Michael’s fake story that Kathleen was breathing seven minutes or whatever before the EMTs got there was a very clear sign that his whole timeline was a lie. Kathleen had died hours earlier around 11:45pm - the 911 was almost three hours later. Michael was staging the scene and probably alternately freaking out.

Was the owl supposed to have killed her on its own, or did the fall down the staircase do the trick?

The problem with the Owl theory is that the dogs didn't get involved at all. The owl itself should've gotten their attention (since dogs are territorial as hell), and then the supposed altercation.

R39 Okay that was fascinating- i want to hear more

R344, the Owl Theory, as I now understand it, is that Kathleen was heading into the house when a very large owl sailed down and repeatedly clawed and attacked her. She fought off the owl but made no effort to tell anyone about it, which seems strange. Instead, she headed up the stairs, made it to the top step—and then plummeted down to the bottom of the steps and somehow bled to death from a wound apparently inflicted on the way down.

Audubon magazine, of course, did a write-up on it.

The other problem with the owl theory is only one or two tiny micro-feathers were found in Kathleen's hair, which does not seem to coincide with being repeatedly struck and wounded by an owl's talons.

I’m almost done with the documentary and the pine needle hasn’t emerged yet???

My god, every time I get to another episode of the documentary I think it’s the last, and yet they keep coming and coming! And I’m watching it on 1.25 speed!

[quote] where Patrick Schwarzenegeer does blow in the bar men's room and it's made so clear he's sexually attracted to the other guy.

And is awakened by his father the next day with his hand down the fly of his opened trousers. I liked that touch.

My favorite line so far, when the kids are just learning about Dad,

"Remember those jean shorts? Yeah, the jean shorts!"

The jorts will always give the Gay men away.

I didn't realize that the first season of Trial & Error was spoofing that particular case.

r353

murder board! murder board!

This is not scientific at all, but to me, his 911 calls sounded phony, like he was trying to convey panic but wasn't really upset.

Just my opinion, of course, but I remember being in high school and hearing the Menendez 911 calls, and thinking, "This is such a crock of shit, they did it."

I hope there’s been a French documentary film crew recording the Murdaugh case. Southern courts and lawyers seem corrupt as hell.

I don’t think the owl “did it.” But I suspect she was returning to the house and was attacked by the owl. Ran into the house, and up the stairs. Was disoriented and injured by the owl, fell and that’s what killed her.

[quote] This is not scientific at all, but to me, his 911 calls sounded phony,

Totally fake. And Firth seems to have replicated that fairly well. Even before you know anything about the case. The panting, out-of-breath quality, so obviously performative.

I was actually thinking during the 911 call, that they used the real voice recording. Was it definitely Firth?

I think Firth has nailed this character so far. Toni Collette almost has the easier job because we don’t have the extensive footage of her that we do for Michael (who is a total on-film drama queen).

R358, you explained it so much better than I did. Thank you.

I would bet the argument that preceded Kathleens " fall" was more about money than sexuality. She was probably sick of supporting his ass. Money can get really strained with one breadwinner and all of those kids. The real life Petersen looks just like the head doctor in the TV show Scrubs by the way.

[quote] I was actually thinking during the 911 call, that they used the real voice recording. Was it definitely Firth?

I dunno for sure, I'll have to go back and listen to it again.

The show is interesting in concept. At first I wondered why have they chosen to name the series The Staircase. Has there ever been a dramatic take on an actual documentary and it's topic, let alone one that been seen so widely? Probably not.

[quote] I would bet the argument that preceded Kathleens " fall" was more about money than sexuality. She was probably sick of supporting his ass. Money can get really strained with one breadwinner and all of those kids.

Yup. And only one of the kids was Kathleen's bio child. Women can be so desperate to be married. Who the hell wants to take on an underemployed douchebag with a bunch of kids.

R363, in all fairness the Petersons were married for more than 10 yrs before the murder. He may not have always been a bum. He did write two successful novels but by the fall of 2001 he was most certainly a well refined, educated bum.

[QUOTE] Has there ever been a dramatic take on an actual documentary and it's topic, let alone one that been seen so widely? Probably not

The Eyes of Tammy Faye

Betty Broderick woman scorned murder.

How did the French documentary makers ever get permission from EVERYONE to film them? I mean, even the jury members were filmed and quite extensively. And Candace, Kathleen's sister, makes a point in her tirade against Michael in the very last episode of the doc that she never gave them permission to include her.

How does that work?

Wonder why Todd is now saying his dad killed Kathleen....did he find something out about daddy?

If Michael Peterson had been some kind of spy, with his massive ego he’d be sure to drop hints about his background, not just the Purple Heart lie.

[quote]r28 The fact that blood was found outside of the door to the house doesn't make the owl theory crazy to me.

Also that there were owl feathers, pine needles and a hank of her own hair in her hand.

Stop spreading lies R370. They were microscopic feathers that could have come from anywhere, include a down comforter. This has been repeated already in this thread.

R364 Well refined and educated doesn't mean much when you have a gaggle of adult kids ( nowadays young adults need a lot of financial help) and a partner who isn't bringing anything to the table. I can understand why his articulate and educated nature attracted her to him but I think by the end the charm had worn off and she had had enough.

So what you are saying R372, is that it was only a matter of time before she had him knocked off and perhaps with his superior military training he knew to hit first and hard before she got the chance?

Evidently, Michael bought the house (with wife #1 as a cosigner), and then she deeded it back when they divorced. So much weird stuff.

I could see that homophobia and other issues made them downplay the evidence that backs the owl theory during the investigation (was it initially dismissed and the evidence at the crime scene not properly handled?).

Sure, R375, but it doesn't explain the dogs being absent from the crime scene, nor barking. It doesn't explain the crime scene being partially cleaned up. It doesn't explain Kathleen's neck being in complete alignment with the rest of her body after what would have been a horrifically violent fall that would distort her body. It doesn't explain the paramedics stating that Kathleen had been dead "for hours." It doesn't explain the dried blood and presence of red neurons indicating Kathleen had received her injuries and died hours ago--around the time she was on Michael's email. It doesn't explain Michael claiming she was breathing 7 minutes before the paramedics got there. It doesn't explain how she laid there for two - three hours whilst Michael snoozed by the pool. It doesn't explain how they could possibly forego watching a practically teenage Catherine Zeta-Jones giving a star performance in America's Sweethearts. Etc. Etc. Etc.

[quote] The Eyes of Tammy Faye

So true. I wonder if it's a trend. Will we be seeing a dramatization of the Fyre Festival debacle?

[quote] Wonder why Todd is now saying his dad killed Kathleen....did he find something out about daddy?

If you can make any sense of Todd's 10 minute video, R206,, he explains while walking in circles, he came to the realization that it was all about the money. His eyes were opened when his father attempted to break his (Todd's) sobriety. He also comes to the conclusion that his father recently killed his birth mother Patricia, despite his attempts to save her.

It's all pretty fucked up, but surprising that it took him this long to wake up to fact that his father is a murderer.

Realizing your father really could have been a murderer is a difficult thing to accept. It's not like buying chicken parts.

True. I believe my father killed his wife during a vacation in Africa but it took years to come to this understanding.

While the lack of the dogs barking might seem odd, it also seems to be a non-issue because they didn't bark no matter how Kathleen died, whether it was an accidental fall down the stairs, a vicious beating by her husband or an intruder or an attack by an owl or other raptor. Aren't bull dogs rather complacent and sedentary, especially once they've gone tom sleep at night?

Anyone else following Todd Peterson on Instagram? I really wouldn't trust anything he has to say about anything. What a fucked-up life he's created for himself, clearly a spoiled boy who always coasted on his looks....which are disintegrating rapidly.

It would be so funny if they gave Colin Firth a line to Martha like, “Your mother threw herself down a flight of stairs back in Germany just to get away from you and your constant PUSSY-LICKING.”

R382, link? I tried to find it but there were a lot of Todd Peterson’s.

R378, Wait the boys German birth mom was murdered in recent years?

R376. Love u cinesnatch. And all that you have pointed out is why he is clearly guilty.

A lot of people with addiction issues change their opinion about loved ones. When you get sober, a lot of relationships seem very toxic and detrimental to one's sobriety.

[quote] So true. I wonder if it's a trend. Will we be seeing a dramatization of the Fyre Festival debacle?

It is a trend. They're shooting a scripted miniseries now out of "Tiger King"

The first wife had a heart attack and died last year.

Watching "America's Sweethearts" made him a murderer. It was so bad that it filled him with rage.

[quote]The real life Petersen looks just like the head doctor in the TV show Scrubs by the way.

Yeah, John C. McGinley, I mentioned that too in one of these threads somewhere. I think McGinley is too old and he also seems to be having some health problems, his voice is kind of odd these days, similar to Ed Begley Jr's vocal issues. As far as looks and craziness goes, though, I think he would have just nailed this role.

R380, is Dr Larry Rudolph your dad?

Firth is very good as Peterson. It would be easy to make Michael into a Snidely Whiplash-like cartoon, but we can see the family looked postcard perfect from a distance because Michael and the others are all underplayed. The one exception is wife #1 who is peripheral enough to be played as a bit madcap. The prosecutor as weasel is fitting---no one in the story is meant to be an angel and Posey is just great as the ADA. I like how "Brad" is a bit underplayed as he clearly loved attention and if his "Price is Right" appearance is any indication, the real Brad would have been too hammy to be believed.

There was a Lifetime movie where Treat Williams played Michael Peterson. I don't remember it being THAT bad but that was years ago

Did or has Michael Peterson benefited financially from the documentary? I'm wondering what funds he lived on once he was released from his 8 year prison stay? In the doc they keep referring to him as "indigent" (poor, nedy, in need of charity) but how did he pay his rent, etc.?

He fucks men for money.

Obviously he gets Social Security and maybe some kind of military pension?

R397, I think those can’t be reached by the civil judgment Kathleen’s daughter got against him, but everything else could.

Todd definitely looks like he went through a phase where we was trade in exchange for drugs.

The owl attack theory makes no sense. if it happened inside the house, the owl would have had to get outside again after the attack, and none of the family claims to have seen that happen. If it happened outside (and then Kathleen ran in to get away from it, climbed up the staircase and then fell back), Kathleen would have certainly screamed in fear and pain while being attacked outside and Michael would have heard that.

I hate that episode 4 somewhat painted Kathleen as the aggressor in the physical confrontation after discovering the emails. I'm sure she was livid and denigrated him in an immasculating way but come on. The lunatic beat her to death, then just left her to bleed to death. If that were my mom I'd been pissed she was depicted that way. She had been dead for hours before cops came to the home for christ sake.

They showed in the doc that you couldn't hear anything from the pool.

The latest episode showed what the series think what allegedly happened to Kathleen. The dogs were outside, sleeping by the pool, so they wouldn't get unnerved by the commotion inside the house though. And if it were an owl attacking Kathleen, I believe, the dogs would be running back inside the house and barking madly. Animals don't like other animals in their territory.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

If you're talking about the current series, r403, I think they've yet to show definitively what Campos thinks happened. So far almost all interpretations of how Kathleen died seem to be presented as equally viable and equally unlikely. That's part of what's making me enjoy this series so much.

It reminds me a lot of "Reversal of Fortune," which was also about a wealthy and unhappy blended family (although of course the Von Bulows/Von Auerspergs were much, much richer than the Petersons). Although that film was marred by its portrayal of the despicable Alan Dershowitz as always right, what was best about it were (like this miniseries) its ambiguities regarding its chief culprit, its victim's relationship to him, and finally the question of whether it was a murder or an unhappy accident. It also had the same ghoulish sense of humor as this one did, with the bizarre behavior of some of the family constantly being normalized or glossed over by the other members.

I really REALLY hope that anyone enjoying the mini-series will watch the entire documentary which has 13 episodes. The series truly doesn't come close to the real events and people. And, even if you watched the doc years ago, it's worth a second look now. I just finished it last night and.....my god what a ride!

This has much about the showrunner.

Have Firth and Binoche ever been in a movie together before?

[quote] Wait the boys German birth mom was murdered in recent years?

Yes Patricia, she was from Arkansas. She died of a heart attack, her 2nd. She lived with her murdering ex-husband in an apartment at the time. Todd thinks Michael delayed calling him, instead of calling 911 immediately.

Considering how that worked out for him last time, that might be understandable.

Most hilarious line in tonight's episode was when the children all fought among themselves:

CLAYTON: (caught in mid-sentence, to Martha, furiously) "... or you'd be in some FUCKING German brothel right now!"

Other funniest line:

MICHAEL (also furious) "If anyone's going to testify about this FFFFFFFFFUCKING blow poke, it's gonna be me!"

The numerous close-ups of Firth in the role are not always flattering, to his credit. But he doesn't look as well preserved as a 60 year old actor - or anyone that cares about their looks, really - might be expected to. You think that's deliberate age progression?

He does look better in the episode extras interviews.

Apparently, the owl theory is possible, but what are the chance that a murderous owl would follow someone across continents to attack a two women in one specific man's life in a staircase?

The fact there are two identical deaths makes me think it wasn't an owl.

Perhaps the owls were enbys and neither of the women respected their pronouns.

"This iddunt inteemate relationships! This is PURE-T FELTH!"

R409, wow this man is a maniac. Who the fuck would live with him at this point.

R413 The 4th post of that audubon.org article in this thread. That photo's starting to appear on the inside of my eyelids.

I do think he that he did not kill Kathleen but I do think he knows more than he lets on. No doubt in my mind that he saw her on the stairs and decided to do nothing to get her money, out of the marriage... who knows

Lord, that death scene was brutal. I guess that’s why Toni took the part, because that's an award winning performance.

[quote] MICHAEL (also furious) "If anyone's going to testify about this FFFFFFFFFUCKING blow poke

Firth is pretty good add shifting into the high-pitched range that Peterson uses for emphasis.

Or when covering for his lying ass.

That was a devastating episode. Toni Colette gave the performance of the year, as far as I'm concerned (she may be even better in the scene in the car with Clayton than she is in the confrontation with Michael that leads to her murder), but the girl who plays Martha is wonderful... that's a very real performance too.

Daaaaamn, this episode. That death scene...I bet that's honestly incredibly close to what happened.

I didn't even consider the murder could have been done without the blow poke.

In the "Behind the Scenes" featurette, one of the producers says that the blow poke only emphasized the story the prosecution wanted to get across, and wasn't necessary to what actually happened. But they didn't say how Kathleen got those wounds on her head if there had been no blow poke.

Also, if it happened that way, why was Michael found guilty of murder in the first degree? The murder as depicted seemed wholly unpremeditated and an act of blind rage. That's second-degree murder, not first-degree murder.

Anyone listening to the HBO Extras podcasts for the series? They worth it?

R423, different states have different definitions of first-degree murder. In some states, the brutality of the crime, or the fact that you have killed your spouse, can be a factor.

R421 Yeah she is very good. The whole cast is great so far.

Thanks, r425. I did not know that.

What would have been Peterson's motive in killing the lady (who was his friend, not his wife) in Germany? Was he that eager to adopt 2 baby girls who were no relation to him?

r428

that she was going to tell his wife that they had an affair and a child together perhaps?

Well, in the documentary, anyway, Patty Peterson and all of the Petersons' friends in Germany swore that the idea of Michael having an affair with the Widow Ratliff was absurd. They were merely platonic friends.

She might have caught him hooking with some German guy.

The Todd Peterson Facelift. from 2 weeks ago.

He should get a lot of exposure out of the renewed interest in the series.

Maybe she was going to tell everyone that her late husband and Michael had had a sexual affair.

R410 r411 As runner up I would suggest this one from the ex wife " Michael had many relations with both men and women while we were married but I never ended up at the bottom of the stairs". Actually I think that was from episode 3 but it's still a keeper.

R434 She does seem like a real sweetheart.

[quote]What would have been Peterson's motive in killing the lady (who was his friend, not his wife) in Germany?

Well, I guess Michael also got a truckload of money from adopting these Ratliff girls. Michael is always able to smell where the money is and has no qualms about grabbing it.

I am assuming we'll find out more about Michael's and Patty's life in Germany and their friendship with the elder Ratliffs (and Liz Ratliff's death) in future episodes. At least I hope we do. I love Trini Alvarado, and I want to see more of her.

It looks like there will be an episode devoted to the owl theory. I cannot wait!

Toni Colette was masterful in the car scene and then later the death scene. If she’s nominated for lead the voters watch the whole series. If she’s nominated for supporting she submits a tape and despite limited screen time, this has to be “the tape” right?

Surely a later episode showing a fight with an owl won’t top this?

[quote]R376 …It doesn't explain how they could possibly forego watching a practically teenage Catherine Zeta-Jones giving a star performance in America's Sweethearts.

You have redeemed yourself with that last sentence.

I think she had to have an on-set tutor for that one, as per child labor laws!

r439, this would certainly be an Emmy-worthy episode. My understanding, though, is that potential Emmy nominees now submit a tape (or a disc) with multiple scenes from a show now rather than just an entire episode, but I could be wrong.

It's funny how Colette can (if only rarely) sometimes go very wrong in her performances (as in the TV miniseries "Unbelievable"), because when she's on target there's just no better actor alive.

I love the repeated scenes of Kathleen with her coffee mug staring up at the attic door trying to hear the bats.

I think it’s also interesting that the fight/death are all master shots with no closeups. The fight is from a distance as if we are really watching the fight in person, and yet, unable to stop the murder we know is coming. Bold choice but brilliant

R443 In the Vanity Fair piece I posted above the show runner talks about making those choices.

Toni!!!!!

What did Peterson do in the hours after he murdered Kathleen? If the EMTs said she'd been dead several hours when they arrived, and Peterson said she'd been alive 7 minutes before their arrival, he wasn't just waiting for her to bleed out after the attack. Some attempts at cleaning up the scene shouldn't have taken hours.

What did he do in those hours?

Do you think Peterson jacked off with his hot sons?

Todd Peterson has pozface now

The sons may very well end up looking like the father, horrible.

Toni Collette is ripping my heart out with each death scene. Watching her convulsions in this newer one gave me goosebumps. I kinda like how the camera was held far away in that scene because it helped keep the confrontation from feeling melodramatic, but rather I felt like child helplessly witnessing my parents fight from the other room/top of the stairs.

Not surprised Dane Dehaan was cast as the faux school bomber.

The actress who plays Martha Ratliff looks and sounds like a young Clea DuVall, which is very annoying and infuriating. Everything about her character must be over-intense.

FUCKIN' SUCKIN', AND RIMMIN'

Peterson was hot when he was young. They show pics in the documentary.

HBO is very daring in showing another rim job on-screen in their series.

But I'm not going to watch the documentary now that I found out the editor was so deeply smitten with Michael Peterson while she was editing the doc. She tried to make him look innocent and not so creepy too.

[quote] She tried to make him look innocent and not so creepy too.

Really? Can't imagine how he'd be portrayed if she weren't. No awards for her.

[quote] HBO is very daring in showing another rim job on-screen in their series.

Girls, White Lotus, Staircase.... What have I missed?

Did Oz go there?

Not sure if it was on-screen in SATC, but it was definitely covered.

Is Parker Posey's widow's peak real? She is amazing. I'm happy for her to be this good alongside Collette and Firth.

[quote] What would have been Peterson's motive in killing the lady (who was his friend, not his wife) in Germany

Michael was in her will and would inherit her estate, something like $350,000.

R400 maybe that is why the bats have been part of the story. If they were in the attic and causing plumbing problems, maybe an owl got in and out of the house without anyone seeing it through some hole/pathway no one ever saw, the same way the bats were getting in.

Not saying that’s what happened, but what I think this show might portray as a theory.

Episode 4 was really good. The “Michael did it” theory was presented in a believable fashion, a crime of passion that also revealed the content of his character. It seems to point out that the prosecution really backed themselves into a corner with the blow poke (even if they had the right guy).

I feel more strongly that the owl theory will be depicted as well. Based on the structure of the series, it seems inevitable. The sooner it is, the more I think the series creator will dismiss it. It’s now such huge element of the case though. I wonder if it will end the series (like after we get all the outcomes of what happened to all of the characters). It’ll be a real feat on both storytelling and technical levels if they portray it convincingly.

R456 Didn’t “Looking” have rimming? I feel we had a Groff shocked face when someone stuck their younger up his hole?

I think the way the series portrays her death in ep 4 is probably closer to the truth.

R463 Yes there was a lot of rimming on Looking. And a pretty extensive scene of Groff eating out Michael Hsu Rosen in the movie.

[quote] Girls, White Lotus, Staircase.... What have I missed?

Julia

Nancy Drew

The sixth episode is about the owl theory, and there are eight episodes.

R463 but we didn't actually see a face burying in the ass crack, like what HBO did in White Lotus and The Staircase. Amazing "low down dirty rimming" scenes.

If you had asked me which two stars I would have least expected to film a rimming scene together, Colin Firth and Toni Colette would be right up there.

But it is kind of an HBO hallmark. "Sex and the City," "White Lotus," "Girls," "Looking," "The Staircase".. maybe next season on "The Gilded Age" we'll see Mrs. Astor toss Agnes's salad.

[r469] if Nathan Lane is involved, there better be bereavement pay

Wait what? Who gets rimmed and rims in this?

Parker Posey's Assistant DA character rims the judge. I can't remember the actor's name.

[r472]

.....

Patrick Schwarzenegger rims the owl. The owl loves it and goes into hoots of ecstasy. Then it kills Toni Colette.

R475, I want to see that

The producers exhumed the corpse of Aretha Franklin and resurrected her to record “Who’s Rimming Who?” as an update to her 1980s hit “Who’s Zooming Who?”

R475 I felt the scene was very tasteful and relevant to the story. I feel the richness and complexity of aviary sexuality has long been ignored in Hollywood so I was definitely ready to take this journey. I think American audiences are finally ready for this. The producers and directors made me feel incredibly safe during filming by the way.

No Patrick getting rimmed. Was Joseph Baena not available?

R471 Firths character rims Colettes character.

It's actually impressive how many big names in this film manage to meld completely into their characters. I don't see Colin Firth or Parker Posey at all. Or Toni Colette but she's usually great at becoming her character. I wouldn't have expected that from Firth or Posey.

Will there be more rimming on HBO shows? I refuse to watch if it's on "Real Time with Bill Maher."

Kathleen's focus on a disturbance in the attic reminds me of The Exorcist, the motif of the mother thinking there are rats in the attic.

Re: claims here the wife was dead for hours before hubs called 911 - can they really pinpoint time of death that precisely?

You’d think they should be able to in this day and age, but I’ve read differing beliefs.

They cast some roles with uncanny resemblance to the real people - the actors playing Peterson's brother, the DA, Parker Posey.

In the documentary Peterson looked a bit like Emilio Estevez so I wonder what that casting might be like. Colin Firth can't help but bring some gravitas (for lack of a better word) to his roles but otherwise doing a great job. Missed opportunity to have Emma Thompson play Peterson's first wife.

[quote]I felt the scene was very tasteful and relevant to the story. I feel the richness and complexity of aviary sexuality has long been ignored in Hollywood

And some people on this thread had to wonder why American actors couldn't take on these roles.

"It's not rimming. It's HBO."

Glaring woke casting for Jean Xavier de Lestrade, The Staircase docu French director, who's actually white.

[quote]To prepare for the role, Vermignon was in contact with the real de Lestrade. He recalled: "I was lucky enough to spend enough time with them [de Lestrade], in order to prepare my character, he was very, generous, very open. "He told me how he felt about all this experience on The Staircase, and some hidden facts and some hidden stories about what happened, and it was just amazing to be able to talk to the guy and you have so much material to prepare for that part."

Not sure why it's so important that the actor playing the director needs to be white, R488.

Michael Vartan would be great for the role of Jean Xavier de Lestrade, but the black actor did such a great job nonetheless.

R486 It wasn't until watching episode 2, and reading this thread, that I realized Margaret is played by Sophie "Sansa Stark" Turner. that's why it's called acting.

R484, a dead body loses heat and goes through rigor mortis in predictable ways. Blood also dries at a predictable pace. I assume that the conclusion here, that Kathleen had been dead for hours before Michael called the police, was so obvious that it could have been drawn back in the sixties.

Also blood pools to the lower parts of the corpse (e.g. the back of the body if it's lying front up etc) and it takes a certain amount of time to do that, so it's a good indicator or time of death.

Pure-T... Filth! This is hardcore porn!

Have you heard this expression before? Is she trying to say "Purity filth" or "Purty filth" Neither of which makes any sense. I don't get it.

R495 I had the same question and wondered if it was some sort of southernism. I've never heard it before. Maybe DLers below the mason Dixon line can chime in. I assumed that she said pure - T filth.

Ir's "pure-dee" (short for "pure damn") and it's an intensifier, i.e., "absolute/total/100%."

Trini Alvarado! She never quite made it as a star, did she? She had big Hollywood movies, but her IMDb credits have long gaps between. Interesting career.

Bette Midler was on a commercial run in the 1980s. One hit after another: Down and Out in Beverly Hills, Ruthless People, Outrageous Fortune, Big Business (not as big as the others, but still made x2 its budget), and Beaches. So, after Beaches, she decided to really go for an Oscar again. She did a remake of Stella Dallas starring Barbara Stanwyck and Anne Shirley as mother and daughter. Both got Oscar nominations in 1937. The director was Emmy-winning gay man John Erman on his first feature. Alvarado hitched her star to film and it flopped. Bette got a Razzie nod.

Alvarado did a few films after, but the next time I noticed her was playing the sister of Winona Ryder in Little Woman four years later.

r499,

OK, I get the hint. Where does Bette live?

R492: The confidence intervals for these things are pretty large---the pattern may be predictable but how long it takes, less so. I wouldn't have huge confidence in the ability of a smallish community ME or even a state one to have much precision in their estimates.

[quote]Not sure why it's so important that the actor playing the director needs to be white,

There's a thing called verisimilitude.

The owl theory is so stupid. If she had been outside, it could have been easy for her to have any number of debris in her hair or on her hands. The likeliest is they had a fight on the staircase and he pushed her, probably unintentionally. That wouldn’t necessarily leave any marks on her body other than what she sustained from falling backwards. The fact that she was dead several hours, that there was dried blood plus attempts to wipe or clean it, makes me think he did push her, and then panicked, maybe felt remorse, and didn’t know what to do. He spent several hours then wondering what to do. It’s possible he came up with the falling story based on his former neighbor as it was a familiar reference for him. Had he admitted to a fight or argument where he pushed her and didn’t mean to, he probably would have still only spent 8-10 years in jail on a lesser charge.

He never could explain why he was outside sitting by the pool for three hours on a chilly winter night. There was no owl, although his weird eyebrows make him look like one—I think its the barred owl with those tufts above the eyes. He was so giddy and screechy throughout all the proceedings Akin to a screech owl. Then he wrote that awful sappy corny poetry about Kathleen whispering in his heart, like a dopey owl.

R501, the difference here is that Michael claimed that Kathleen had *just* died. I don’t think anyone could mistake a body that has been dead for several hours with one that has been dead for ten minutes.

I thought that Parker Posey was over the top ridiculous until I saw the real person she was playing.

She really nailed it.

There were seven deep lacerations on her scalp caused by a beating, and 30 other injuries all over her face and upper body. That he just simply pushed her once by accident and panicked is highly improbable.

OMG!!! Another mysterious death of a person involved in the Peterson murder trial!

[quote]Prosecutor Freda Black, portrayed by Parker Posey in HBO Max's "The Staircase," was found dead on her couch years after she prosecuted novelist Michael Peterson for the death of his wife Kathleen Peterson.

So he could have beaten her, R507, which can explain the lacerations. It doesn’t mean he didn’t still push her on the stairs, or that he didn’t panic afterwards. You’d have to argue premeditated murder, and I don’t think it was. Was he responsible, though? Yes. This whole story has been sensationalized beyond what it needs to be when it’s a domestic scenario that happens a lot. All these theories about owls, etc., when a lot of it comes down to a shoddy investigation and prosecution.

At the risk of Mary!ing myself, I am in awe of Parker Posey. She *is* Freda in this. It's pretty amazing.

I just started watching (on episode 2) but why is there still blood on the stairwell wall weeks after Michael has been released on bail? Wouldn’t one of the kids have washed it off and repainted? Or were they under police orders not to?

Tasteful Friends would at least hang some artwork over that!

Play with himself.

Episode 2 at the fundraiser:

The Durham Dance Company remind s me of this crowd:

[quote] This whole story has been sensationalized beyond what it needs to be when it’s a domestic scenario that happens a lot. All these theories about owls, etc., when a lot of it comes down to a shoddy investigation and prosecution.

You make it sound like it's the police's fault. Michael was the one who killed her and then lied about it afterwards.

[quote] There were seven deep lacerations on her scalp

They looked severe in the prop autopsy photos, which I'm sure were created to be accurate/realistic.

In the first re-enactment, where she alone, loses her footing, falls backward hitting her head, then struggling, falling again and going into convulsions - are we meant to believe that the lacerations were caused by striking the woodwork?? That just doesn't seem plausible.

Can we discount this theory - despite Toni Collette's incredible portrayal?

R515 Correct, she gave a very credible performance of a scenario that is incredible.

Yes, the way they showed the death in the last episode can't account for the head lacerations. We already saw another scenario for how Kathleen died, so my guess is we'll see even more enacted (like the owl theory).

Toni Colette said while filming it she never could decide for certain whether Michael Peterson did it, so I'm guessing the point of the show will be that you can never be sure you know anything. We're already seeing that play out as well with the family--in the first episode they seemed so happy, and now we're learning how much unkindness they all harbored for one another.

Oh, fuck off, R514.

I’m totally getting everyone blow pokes for Christmas.

I'd never heard of a blow poke before but it turns out to be a lot less exciting than I at first thought.

Maybe it's just me but I find the series leans heavily into Peterson's guilt whereas the documentary truly leaves you not knowing for sure.

I know I will get flamed here, but I have to say....when I watched the documentary when it first appeared years ago, I was completely turned off by Peterson and thought he was likely guilty. But watching the entire documentary again this past week, I'm actually more inclined to believe he is innocent of murder. He doesn't ever betray the slightest anger towards anyone other then some indignant huffing and puffing towards the DA and Kathleen's sister. And there was plenty of time and occasion for anger to surface. I just can't imagine him summoning the anger in the moment to get so violently physical against his wife - it just doesn't seem to be in his DNA.

And I was very taken this time with the unwavering loyalty of David Rudolf, who always believed in his innocence, as well as family friend Ron Guerrette, Michael's brothers, the Peterson sons and step-daughters and ex-wife, who were all always there for Michael (even more impressive considering the homosexuality in the case).

Now, that said, I can't come up with a solution of how Kathleen died. But I do wonder how many posters here who are posting about Peterson's guilt have watched the entire documentary recently.

[quote]But watching the entire documentary again this past week ... He doesn't ever betray the slightest anger towards anyone other then some indignant huffing and puffing towards the DA and Kathleen's sister. And there was plenty of time and occasion for anger to surface. I just can't imagine him summoning the anger in the moment to get so violently physical against his wife - it just doesn't seem to be in his DNA.

R521, you do realise it was edited by someone with a bias for him, right?

And, yes, I watched the entire documentary series.

Except one of the Peterson sons is now saying he did it

R520 Professionally referred to as an aerator poker, nothing to get excited over.

Unless your name is Candace.

r522, the doc editor may have had a "bias" for him but perhaps that's because she spent a lot of time during the trial and after getting to know him as well as all the intricacies of the case, and thus believes in his innocence. What could she possibly have to gain in supporting him if she didn't believe in his innocence?

And r523, as for his son Todd who is now ranting on about his belief in his dad's guilt.....have you watched all his videos? He's clearly a drug addict and entirely unreliable.

R521, I think the theme covered in Episode 4 of the miniseries addresses your post R525.

Also, you seem to also be ignoring a great deal of evidence discussed exhaustively in this thread.

Who plays the hot son? I always thought the bi dad had a special place for the cute son.

Patrick Schwarzenegger

hawt

R525, Michael Peterson is clearly a grifter and unreliable

Young Michael Peterson was good looking.

Yeah he was hot ish. Always wanted to see the lacrosse player he was trying to fuck in his emails. Played for NC. DL web sleuths never figured that one out.

I feel so sorry for Kathleen, having to toil away for years at a stressful job to support the layabout husband and his 4 kids from different marriages.

If she were a Datalounger, she’d intone, [italic]”Enough!”

The owl defence is as absurd as the OJ Colombian Necktie defence, but attorneys have no shame. So anything goes.

The hot son always gave off an attention liking bi vibe to me.

[quote]R534 The owl defence is as absurd as the OJ Colombian Necktie defence

Why? None of the Staircase theories make much sense.

R536, the injuries between Elizabeth and Kathleen were not dissimilar to each other.

The theory that Kathleen--who had been supporting Michael, his political career, his four children--discovered her lazy, narcissist of a husband was also shtupping others on the side (who happened to be men) and decided to end the marriage sending his world crashing down and causing him to react violently makes a great deal of sense.

Within 45 minutes of the email sent to her which she agreed to go over that night and didn't after a seemingly sober and professional conversation with a colleague, she was more than likely dead or in the throws of a significant argument. The observations of the paramedics further support the former.

[quote]The paramedics arrived 8 minutes after the first call. They had many years of experience with both unfortunate accidents and deliberate violence, and had attended staircase falls before. They were surprised by enormous amount of blood at the scene, especially because it had dried considerably. There was some which was still liquid, but they didn’t need their usual protective gear to do their jobs.

[quote]Mike said he’d just stepped outside to turn off the pool lights, and came back to find her on the floor. After the paramedics mentioned the dried blood, he changed his description to say that he had been outside by the pool for 45 minutes. (You can check these details in the September 2006 appeal reasoning and in the documentary The Staircase.)

[quote]The autopsy showed deep lacerations to Kathleen’s head, which were the subject of a lot of debate. It also showed the presence of red neurons in her brain. These indicate that she had been bleeding out for at least 2 hours before the paramedics arrived.

What's this about a hot lacrosse player?

The prosecution bungled this case by doggedly sticking to the "Michael beat her with handheld object" story when "Michael smacked her head against the stairs" makes so much more sense with all of the evidence, including the evidence that she might have been strangled as well. I have no idea why they wanted her death cause to be put down as "blunt force trauma" when the evidence that she was dead way before Michael called 911 means officially acknowledging it as "death by blood loss" wouldn't exonerate him at all.

Mr. Peterson strikes me as being a high handed handful, but it also seems the jury found him guilty due to the issue of (shudder) gay sex.

How do we know Kathleen didn’t know he played around on the side? It wouldn’t be the first marriage where bi spouses were allowed to step out on occasion.

R540, Kathleen said nothing about it to anyone, and it's not like she never talked about her personal life. There are no people who can back up the claims that she knew he was hooking up with guys

She ditched her first husband because he cheated on her

Even a lot of younger women would not be cool with their spouse or bf hooking up with male prostitutes, so why do we think baby boomer Kathleen would have no issues with it?

His first wife knew he was sleeping with men and appeared to be fine with it.

R538 in his emails he was arranging a hook up with a college lacrosse player. I think he was willing to pay

Was it the editor or the director of the documentary who was having an affair with him while the series was being shot? No chance of any bias there, right?

[quote]How do we know Kathleen didn’t know he played around on the side?

How do we know she did? The only person that will attest to it is the husband (a proven liar) who didn't have to work a regular job and lived like a king, along with his four children.

Yeah, there are doormats in this world. But, one to the point that people are suggesting here about Kathleen? Yeah, no.

Michael lied about, amongst other things:

-Earning a Purple Heart to further his political ambitions

-The length of time Kathleen was alive.

-The length of time it took to discover her body.

[quote]His first wife knew he was sleeping with men and appeared to be fine with it.

Which has zero to do with Kathleen Peterson.

It would be interesting to know how much truth there was about Michael unwilling to discuss sexuality with his daughter, which the series is suggesting was lesbian. If one was so open about it with his wife (suggesting Peterson was comfortable enough with his own sexuality to share his truth with her), you'd think he would support and encourage his own teenage child coming out of the closet. I mean, if you're going to apply logic.

Obviously the editor also knew he was fucking men and she didn't mind.

How many breadwinning baby-boomer women in 2001 were comfortable with their husband fucking men on the side whilst supporting him and his four children?

Also, I think it may have already been mentioned--but bears repeating--about the degree of Michael's hubris to be a straight-married man in 2001 fucking men on the side and still running for office ... in NORTH CAROLINA (voted for Reagan twice all the way through Bush Jr twice).

Well, I wouldn’t say it’s beyond a shadow of a doubt that she knew. There’s no evidence either way.

I just remember in the documentary the female prosecutor rails something like, “WHAT wife is going to be OKAY with her husband having sex with MEN?!” And I thought, “Um, [italic]some [/italic]wives?”

Well, Kathleen was perfectly fine about sleeping with Michael while he was still married to Patty, so maybe she did have a flexible view towards fidelity...

Ive never seen Patrick in anything. Is he a good actor.. He's very good looking. With very rich famous parents.

Had no idea Maria and Arnold's first son was so handsome..

It was only after Michael was separated from Patty that he moved back to Durham from Germany and started his relationship with Kathleen. I'm not sure why the series pushes the whole "Kathleen slept with a married man" angle, when it had some context to it (namely, he was separated, not living in the same country as his wife, and on his way to being divorced).

If this production can be trusted :

. Clayton says he walked in on his father beating off to gay porn.

.Todd says Kathleen knew about his interest in men. (without explaining how)

. He had a pair of booty shorts.

It's not unreasonable to conclude Kathleen on some level knew he was homo. Even if she didn't want to confront it.

North Carolina is a weird, mixed up state. (I grew up there.) The Democrat Governor regularly refuses to sign the shit the Republican legislature passes.

[quote] The Democrat Governor regularly refuses to sign the shit the Republican legislature passes.

How is that weird?

Maria and Arnold made really good looking kinds. One of the daughters is gorgeous. Was completely clueless

[quote]The wounds on Kathleen’s head are EXACTLY the same size and shape as owl talons She had microscopic feet feathers from an owl in her hair Her blood was found outside the house There was gravel from outside on her knees Her fingerprint in blood was found on the inside of the front door Her hyoid bone was cracked exactly as it would be if something slammed into her head from behind People were attacked by owls in the area Owls were living in the trees surrounding the Petersen’s house

Stop the stupidity

An owl can not break a hyoid bone. The hyoid bone is not broken/cracked from a hit in the back of the head. It happens when there is trauma to the front of the neck. It takes a lot of force to break it. He admitted to going out the back door after finding Kathleen. That's how the blood got out there. Whatever he beat her with he had to get rid of

This owl flew in there, beat her to death and only left 1 feather and then magically found its's way out? NO

In other cases when owls fly into homes they have a hard time getting out and will fly into windows or walls

The one daughter is married to Chris Pratt. Patrick is insufferable and entitled, but he is cute.

I'd suffer him gladly.

[quote]It's not unreasonable to conclude Kathleen on some level knew he was homo.

Being a homo doesn't necessarily mean you're actively involved in gay sex, R553.

I speak from experience.

At any rate, has any of this been substantiated? And, if we're going to go by the mini-series, it's making it pretty evident that there is a great deal of repression in this family when it comes to communication (which would support the theory that Kathleen didn't know). Again, the guy wouldn't even have a convo with his teenage lesbian daughter about sexuality, why would that same person feel comfortable enough to share this with his breadwinning wife?

Also, it seems we should have a separate Staircase thread about people creaming their pants over Patrick Schwarzenegger. Yeah, I'd love to fuck him too, but have a cold shoulder please.

If Kathleen didn't know why would Michael be stupid enough to look at gay porn on the computer they shared?

The owl attack was outside. No one ever suggested the owl was in the house.

I thought it was his computer that she had to ask him his email address of, r561.

R561, by all reports, he was drinking when he gave her the email. Also, this was an important document she required that night for her job (you know, the one that furnishes his lifestyle). Was he going to refuse her?

Yet, R562, yet no conclusive owl feathers were found on her, only microscopic feathers that could have been from a down comforter.

Do people even read?

Who payed for Peterson's massive legal fees? Did he hit up his first wife for funds as usual? She would likely have offered to pay, considering her nature. Probably why she also took him in when he was released from prison.

Did Kathleen's family get any kind of wrongful death settlement?

He also use a programme to delete files from that computer that very day, R561 (and days after).

[quote]Police seized Michael’s computer and determined that he had deleted 216 files the day before Kathleen's death and 352 files two days after, according to Jones’ book. The state hired an expert to recover some of the deleted files. That expert said he found deleted emails that details Michael’s financial issues. In one email, Michael said that both of his sons were living in debt and struggling. In another, he asked a relative for $5,000 for one of his adopted daughter's college tuitions. In another, he asked his ex-wife to take out a $30,000 home equity loan to help their son's debt issues.

Nothing a $1.4M life insurance policy couldn't cover.

IIRC, I don't believe the insurance $$ was ever paid out

If Kathleen left her first husband because he was cheating on her, why would anyone assume she would be cool with her second husband doing it?

Yes, R567, but if Michael killed Kathleen and expected to get away with it, it follows that he would have also expected to receive the proceeds of her life insurance.

r568 hmmm....is it AT ALL possible that Michael and she discussed his bisexual tendencies and accepted them? Do new partners discuss and make the boundaries of their relationship in terms of sex?

r569 i was simply stating that insurance $$ were never paid out (from what I recall). I wasn't saying that would NOT be a motivation for killing her; obviously it was probably on his mind somewhere, given their rather large and outstanding debt.

[quote] Nothing a $1.4M life insurance policy couldn't cover.

Hmm, one-time payout vs. a long=term cash cow, who only requires the occasion ass eating.

Unless of course I suspect she may be just about to dump me.

R571, it appears that Kathleen was on her way to losing her job. Not exactly a long-term cash cow.

She could just as soon been promoted in the re-org for all you know.

It's been over a decade since I've seen the Staircase doc, at least the initial episodes. I'm debating whether I should rewatch it on Netflix before proceeding with this series. I'm thinking it may enhance my appreciation for the details.

Has anyone else done the same?

r574 me. i considered it required reading when i started the HBO series

R574 I've watched multiple documentaries on the Theranos, WeWork and Anna Delvy debacles. I thought sure as hell I don't need to see dramatic re-enactments of these fraudsters.

After the first 3 episodes of Staircase, I did go back and watch the original docu-series. Definitely worth it.

Jury is still out on whether I bother with the dramatic versions of the other subjects.

If you rewatch the Staircase doc you should supplement it with research. A lot of details that make Michael’s guilt more obvious were omitted from the documentary.

For example, the defense’s forensic expert Dr Henry Lee’s key theory to explain the copious amount of blood splatter on the walls was that it could have been Kathleen coughing up blood which had streamed down from her face.

However, the autopsy showed that no blood was found inside her mouth or her lungs. Because it’s a crucial detail that discounts the defense’s argument it wasn’t included in the documentary.

I've made up my mind: Michael Peterson killed his wife!

i have a hard time with whether he was guilty or innocent. He really seems quite spineless and unable to carry out the murder of woman who has financed his Himbo/Mimbo lifestyle. It seems very short-sighted on his part.

However, the characteristics exhibited by both sons point to some faulty genes. One can't overlook the progeny.

[quote] If you rewatch the Staircase doc you should supplement it with research. A lot of details that make Michael’s guilt more obvious were omitted from the documentary.

Like I wrote above, Michael was sleeping with the documentary's editor or director while it was being filmed. That explains a lot about was included and excluded.

....

R542, she knew because she caught him cheating, not because he was 100% honest with her

Sophie Brunet was, in fact, a jailbird pen pal, she fell in love with the murderer even before they met in person. Yes, Michael Peter came off in the docu, appearing like a guy who's been done wrong by the justice system.

So, about this down comforter…was she under or on one out at the pool? Or snuggling up with one while watching the movie starring a teenage CZJ? Don’t get me wrong, I think the owl theory is crazy, but where did the “microscopic feathers” come from?

I think the key is “microscopic”. That would mean visible under a microscope. Could have been on the lounge chair, or she could have brushed up a tree branch. It could have just been floating in the air. That’s what makes the owl claim so stupid. What other microscopic debris did she have in her hair?

R572: She is shown laying off people. The circumstances sound like nothing was certain for anyone, which typical under circumstances of a re-org, esp. if they wind up laying off 2/3 of their staff.

Wait, is it the actual Juliette Binoche who became involved in a relationship with Michael or is she playing a character? I don’t think they’ve actually given her name yet?

If you want to discount the documentary because you think it's prejudicial, why would you ever believe an HBO mini-series would be any more truthful?

Omg lol at R587.

Thanks, Cinesnatch, for your rational, logical comments/explanations. I'm wondering if you have any theory about what happened to the murder weapon. (I assume that some sort of object or tool would have to have been used to cause those lacerations on Kathleen's skull.) I would think the Durham investigators would have scoured the property looking for anything that might have been the murder weapon. This is the part that, if I had been on the jury, would have perhaps swayed me toward a "not guilty" verdict. And, of course, the malfeasance of some of the prosecutor's witnesses/experts did not help matters.

I've read the book so long ago that I forget all the details, but as I posted earlier Peterson bought the house (with the ex cosigning). He must have had money at some point - was it book sales?

One of his books became very popular for a time. “The Eye of the Dragon” maybe?

Thanks R590. It could be the prosecution was just didn’t pursue the theory which Episode 4 presents at the end. Those lacerations could have come from Michael slamming Kathleen’s head into the wall/stairs. But she didn’t have brain trauma or skull fractures which is why they opted for the blow poke (hollow metal that could create those injuries).

At the end of the day, some kind of fall was involved. And if there was a fall with that much blood, I don’t think it’s beyond the pale that her head was violently slammed by another as well. And Kathleen’s injuries weren’t dissimilar to those of Elizabeth.

when this is done

Even though I think he did it or at least contributed to her death, none of the stories fully make sense and explain her injuries. The prosecution seemed to be idiots--the blow poker, the gay angle, the discredited blood spatter guy, just dumbshits.

R587 Oui, it was. Catherine Deneuve dated him first but he left her for Binoche. To this day, the women will not work together on film.

After watching the first 3 episodes of the documentary, I'm struck by how awful Peterson's skin looks. For someone who was 58-60 during the filming, it was pure-t bad.

He needed more facials.

Is there a thread I missed about Todd? He clearly deserves his own. I remember always seeing him in the background...Dateline, the doc, other TV takes...and thinking how gorgeous he was. I imagined him being smart and loyal to the family but he's WAYYYYY more fucked up than I ever imagined. This story keeps going and going...and the show is fun!

Seeing as he admits to being an alcoholic and drug addict, I want to know how he went from thicc meaty hunk to the shredded knife-jawed man he is today. Alcohol and drugs?

r588, are you aware of anyone involved in the HBO show being romantically involved with Peterson? Because then I would look at that show differently too.