People refuse to see that transphobia is rooted in misandry

OP refuses to see that men in a dress are men, not women.

Transphobia is the most overused word of the 21st century. Please understand, no one thinks that “women” with tits and a dick are really women, or that “men” with mastectomy scars and a cunt are really men. No matter how nice they try to be by pretending otherwise to your face.

Fuck off, OP. Terf is a slur. Women have rights. Women have the right to female only spaces as in locker rooms, bathrooms etc, same with women's sports, WITHOUT MEN. Trans women are men. 90 % of trans women keep their dicks and can rape women. Many of them are mentally deranged and get turned on by dressing like women, it's called autogynephilia. They can not have access to women's spaces. They are dangerous to women.

You can't opt in to the opposite sex. Reality is what is there when you stop believing in it.

Depends...the left wing feminist transphobia...sure. The right just hates "fags".

r3 yet this is their own politics coming back to bite them.

and they're incapable of taking responsibility for it because for all the talk,

they can't walk the walk and need the patriarchy to treat them like weak and bratty little children.

r5 the left wing hates fags too. they always have... but they've already got you by the balls, you're trained to hate the right and glorify the left, excusing actions based on the this tribalism and accepting the lesser of evils because you are just a fag. So, maybe *you* need them more than they need you. Do study the history of leftwing feminism. . . but try comparing the newer books vs older books as the narratives tend to be different especially in those parts where it feminism and lgbt history overlap.

R6 I don't hate the right. I was exaggerating for the purpose of making a point...I don't hate the left either. I just meant to say there are different reasons why people "hate trans". The right has different issues with it than some on the left. It DOES bother me that the only time misandry is considered to be an actual thing is when some trans dudes get hated on.

anyone remember how women reacted when they were told to stop having their hen parties in gay male spaces especially prior to marriage equality?

or perhaps we could reflect on why there are less public and private services, businesses, education, gyms, clubs (even down to clubs for boys) etc exclusively for men vs the sheer numbers available for women.

Or how women react to cancers which affect men and the reaction from cancer organizations for women?

Or how feminist constantly berate us for toxic masculinity yet now they're upset that males are too feminine and it's infringing on their spaces? They love watching drag race but then go on to protest it in their neighborhoods because drag is woman face? And how about how they blame gay men specifically for creating the butch/femme dynamic among lesbian relationships among the general sexualization of lesbian by convincing them to engage sadomasochism?

i do keep receipts.

OP the whole trans idea is based on ridiculous stereotypes based on sex. Gays and lesbians have spent our entire lives trying to fight against those stereotypes. That's why we don't like the idea. We don't hate trans people. I don't think anyone on DL is likely to chase some trans down the street trying to hurt them.

We were getting to the point where it didn't fucking matter if a girl played with toy cars or a boy played with a Barbie. Now the trans ideology suggests those kids need to be 'dealt with'. It's horribly regressive and harmful.

It's also nonsensical. If a trans women were a woman, the word trans wouldn't be needed and they wouldn't have needed hormones and surgery. The whole ideology is incoherent and has implications for gays and lesbians. That's why gays and lesbians are unhappy about it.

r3 why should anyone be invested in your cause when you have no interest nor empathy for others?

shall we count the number of women that usually respond with how you've carried every gay man because they were useless little nancy boys more invested in picking up diseases, dancing on floats in their underwear and taking drugs? Most often that's from female celebs, faghags, that once had a large gay following, which disappeared when they went mainstream and ditched the fags but then when they lose their mainstream success become angry bitter feminists and lash out at their former gay audience for abandoning them or the academics that still retain their radical homophobic roots and a few of the actual people still alive, and still as hateful as ever.

last year was all about tearing down gay men at pride with the same language the religious reich had used for decades, so, what will this year be?

what more will be demanding of us to do to cater to you?

r9 you make it sound like all gays and lesbians are unhappy about it. When it seems the majority of those concerned about it are part of radical "conservative" groups and organizations that have ties with the religious right.. so unsurprisingly, they tend to share the same views and use the same rhetoric.

There is a middle ground. But we're not likely to get there when we're dealing with this kind of propaganda that is predominately based in creating a hysterical moral panic, working from ignorance and spreading hate.

There's seven anti-gay bills being debated in the U.S. right now

Florida's is the most discussed

the only thing the anti-trans crowd has done is hijack it to target trans

they've ignored it on all other grounds.

and they work it from both sides of the aisle

to the left, they use trans as a scapegoats and attempt to recruit LGB into their ranks.

to the right, they ignore their homophobia and applaud them for targeting trans.

so, why should we invest ourselves in an anti-trans cause that is more likely to do us harm than benefit us?

frankly, I'm not too keen on the extreme side of trans community either... but most are just operating from a social justice space and using feminism as the foundation. As we've seen throughout history, it's very effective.

How important are gay and bi men anyway? We're told trans ruled Stonewall and we're told that women carried the gay liberation movement on their backs that without them, there would be nothing, we would be nothing. If they both want the credit so badly, let them fight it out.

Anyone remember when they began campaigns to take gay men's names off of buildings?

from the east bay to new york.

Or why we ended up putting the L first before the G

or how people talk in the way that hiv/aids brought too much attention to gay and bisexual men. . . and condeming us and the patriarchy for being diseased attention whores who reaped what they've sown.

Yeah. fun times.

How many have waggled their fat fingers at gay men over aids/hiv from every angle... but the last few decades, it's been the "it was once a reason for gay men to act up" and berate you for having stood up then, while trying to guilt, manipulate and shame you to join their causes, whatever the cause of the moment is... or as often with this cause using the same rhetoric and fear that has been used to justify hate crimes against us for centuries, and is still being used.

Now they'll say it's neither here nor there. They will scream it's whataboutism. Why won't anyone think about the strong, independent women that can do anything and help them?

the view ftm as the patriarchy's version of the stepford wives as misguided but not really dangerous

not dangerous like perverted nancy boys in dresses out to molest children and accost women in public restrooms.

Do you know how many radical feminists supported John Money?

They enjoyed his research because it supported their views.

It also opened the door to childhood transitioning and his research also spawned the uprising of intersex activism to fight against non-medically necessary treatments and surgeries.

speaking of intersex, did you know between the late 90s to early 2000s several western european nations had debated putting people born with those conditions on pre-offender watchlists based on long debunked and archaic research? *pre-offender, as in yes, pre sexual offender, but also on watchlists for crime and terrorism with the belief that every single one was a potential danger to society.

Society has long had it's needs for scapegoats... it's the need to point at someone and say "they're evil!" and to put a public face to all of society's ills and problems.

Misandry is ignored for a similar reason.

And we've come full circle from feminism, where i guess now they've told us feminism isn't about empowerment, it's not about equality, it has failed because women are just that fragile and well, dumb, and helpless, that they're not really equals at all.

the organization in the link is where many of the surviving 60s activists turned academics terfs belong to.

I recommend you check out their video channels as the site can be difficult to navigate. . . while they are minimal online, they do have larger power in the academic world and have for generations. . . most of the modern feminists have little understanding or knowledge of how these roots still affect modern politics today, even in the most trans-friendly spaces.

so many of the materials are out of print while the newer editions have been thoroughly revised and sanitized yet the undercurrent remains.

It's quite a sickening group when you get into it... especially in their hatred of gay men and I'd dare say even in how they perceive lesbians - actual, sexually atracted to other females kind of lesbians. They're quite keen on policing lesbian sexuality while routinely calling for the re-criminalization of gay men by tying them to child predators.

(and to think of all here that scream when you speak on female sexuality and gender)

Lesbian feminists developed a profound critique of gay male politics and gay male ambitions, as is clear in Marilyn Frye’s work in The Politics of Reality and my own Unpacking Queer Politics. Lesbian feminists criticised gay male politics on a number of very important grounds. We saw gay men as having a sexuality very similar to that of heterosexual men even though it was aimed at other men and not women. We saw male sexuality as constructed out of the power relations of male domination, as the sexuality of the ruling class. It was, we argued, formed from men’s bonding through the sexual subordination of women, and out of men’s ‘male sex right’, the right of sexual access to women and children. It is centred on the penis and penetration, shaped by the eroticised power difference of sadomasochism, powered by the prostitution and pornification of women by the sex industry. This model is the basis of gay male sexuality too. Gay men saw their very identity as tied to the enactment of eroticised power difference and a profitable industry of sadomasochism developed in gay male culture in the 1970s and 1980s, with clubs and bathhouses, leatherwear and torture implements, pornography and prostitution all based upon the eroticising of power difference . Gay men, like women, were likely to eroticise powerful masculinity. Most gay sadomasochists were ‘bottoms’ rather than ‘tops’.

...

Use of the term ‘queer’ to describe a politics developed in the very early 1990s out of AIDS activism. Male gay activists who came out onto the streets to protest the wave of anti-gay hatred that accompanied the AIDs epidemic used the term ‘queer’ to differentiate themselves from what they saw as an older generation of men who used the term ‘gay’. They saw the older generation as too accommodating and not sufficiently confrontational for the moment of emergency that the new activists saw themselves to be confronting. We lesbian feminists were horrified, it clearly disappeared lesbians all over again. Lesbians were subsumed under gay men and this was clear in the fact that immediately lesbians needed special words to describe them. Queer meant men and lesbians were queer women or female queers, adjectives were needed to modify the generic male of queer politics.

An explanation of what queer meant was given in the editorial of a new academic journal, GLQ or Gay, Lesbian, Queer, founded in 1993. It says that the Q in the title has two meanings, quarterly and also "the fractious, the disruptive, the irritable, the impatient, the unapologetic, the bitchy, the camp, the queer" (p. iii). All these adjectives describe the traditional culture of gay men . Camp and drag are forms of behaviour that imitate what are seen as women’s mannerisms and dress. Camp behaviour was a sign of male homosexuality right up to the 1970s but is less common now.

It consisted of men flapping their hands and being ‘limpwristed’ and speaking in an affected way, ‘Oh Darling’.

High voices and wristflapping were associated with femininity.

It became an aesthetic style which emphasised appreciation of bad taste in which gay men idolised extremely effeminised heterosexual women, particularly those with a tragic story, like Judy Garland.

Camp is based on the sending up of womanhood.

Drag, as everyone here will know, consists of gay men dressing up as extremely exaggerated versions of femininity for amusement and to excite other men.

... The point has been reached today where the word lesbian and the concept of being a lesbian have been almost eliminated in the queer culture into which young lesbians come out. They are likely to encounter a culture that has been entirely queered, and has not a trace, no historical memory of lesbianism, not even in a homeopathic sense.

There is no model for lesbianism as a form of resistance to male domination.

Womanhood is a biological reality. It is not something to be worn as a costume. The whole gender movement is based on how women look, act and talk. It is based on stereotypes and it is deeply misogynistic. There is no right way to be a woman. All women are women. Women are bound together by a shared biological reality. Men can never know how it is to be a woman, because they are not. They are men. Fucking hell, biological women don't really know what it means to be a woman. They just are. They exist.

Only the original/real TERFs (i.e. actual radfems) have hated teh trans based on misandry.

The pile of whatevers called TERFs these days have a variety of paths by which they arrive.

r19

Op is the homophobic "everyone that doesn't agree to the homophobic and misogynistic trans cult is a TERF!" First of all trans loon women are called terfs by the trans cult out of jealousy and to try and silence them. Fuck off loon, why don't care about men in dresses and bearded women.

Also no being gay has nothing to do with body dysmorphia, we have nothing in common with the mentals.

r18

No one's clicking on that those videos sweetie.

r28 I know I know I'm dealing with people akin to religious fundamentalists. But I'll add them, anyway. Just like you'll fap yourself into a frenzy and post half a dozen threads on trans related crimes and call the manager when a butch biological woman identified woman that looks like a man enters the women's restroom.

I cosign to all of R3.

Except this:

[quote]Many of them are mentally deranged

ALL of them are. Not many.

r30 many recognize the mental health classification but why would you say deranged? And why is it you believe ALL of them are deranged? Can you answer in detail and why this is a "cause" for you?

if you're going to speak against trans... you should at least investigate their politics, right?

[quote]anyone remember how women reacted when they were told to stop having their hen parties in gay male spaces especially prior to marriage equality?

No. I don't know any real women who had "hen parties" in gay spaces. This is BS.

[quote]or perhaps we could reflect on why there are less public and private services, businesses, education, gyms, clubs (even down to clubs for boys) etc exclusively for men vs the sheer numbers available for women.

There are plenty. You just haven't been invited into the club.

[quote]Or how women react to cancers which affect men and the reaction from cancer organizations for women?

LOL. This is just too rich. No medical condition get as much attention as the ones that affect MEN. Hello? Erectile dysfunction?

[quote]Or how feminist constantly berate us for toxic masculinity yet now they're upset that males are too feminine and it's infringing on their spaces?

No one cares if you act "feminine". Don't give a fuck at all. Just don't say you ARE a woman. Get it?

[quote]They love watching drag race but then go on to protest it in their neighborhoods because drag is woman face?

Never watched that trash. Don't know any real women who have/do.

[quote]And how about how they blame gay men specifically for creating the butch/femme dynamic among lesbian relationships among the general sexualization of lesbian by convincing them to engage sadomasochism?

Uh, what?

[quote]i do keep receipts.

Too bad they're all fake

r28 keep ignoring them, dear.

[quote] Helena (age 23) identified as non-binary and transgender throughout her teenage years, transitioning with HRT from the age of 18 - 19 before detransitioning. In this episode, she reflects on the social and online influences that led to her down the path to transition.

r35 I've already proven they aren't fake.

Why are you lot like little Trumpians... when any presents you with facts. Y'all scream "Fake" news.

and then y'all claim everyone else is deranged.

not even so much for a "cause" but hatred, and not just hatred of trans but everything loosely connected.

You'll tell "gay men that soon they'll be coming for you" but you're blissfully unaware of how they already have because you don't care. not really. not enough to research. not enough to know wtf you're talking about. you'll hide behind "but I'm a woman" while you lash out at any that so little as questions your position. That's pretty fucked up. Especially not knowing the history of the "anti-trans" movement and it's homophobia.

Dear God, transloon. Night sweats from fake hormones keeping you up? Get some sleep.

"But I'm a woman"

the fragility of it all...

Let's just take this to misogyny since that's going to be the defining and manipulated outcry here...

can anyone imagine a world ruled by women?

Funny how you can't do blackface but men can do womanface and if women object, they are called a TERF. Funny also how there is no slur for the MEN who KILL transwomen.

r44 so, you have issues with that but come to a largely gay male site but where fraus routinely discuss drag race and then cry about womanface?