What explains the rise in lesbian divorce? Divorce rate higher among lesbian than gay men

I'm a little surprised too, but one thing is how much lesbians and women CARE so much, and gay men like all men can be a little more mellow about some things. ISSUES are the lifeblood of female relationships, more so then male.

In heterosexual marriages women are more likely to file for a divorce than men. I think women (whether they're gay, straight, or bi) are raised to see love as a fairytale and expect things to be perfect. I think men are more likely to just stick it out, and if they aren't getting what they want, just find other partners on the side.

gay men are inclined to shop around but inevitably settle down when their own market value declines or they're finally ready for an investment piece.

lesbians, however, pick up random junk from yard sales, flea markets, thrift stores. They tend to be hoarders from an early age and it's only with time (and probably perimenopause) that they start to take a minimalist approach before bringing trash into their home.

Uhaul is clearly to blame.

Don't lesbians move in with each other on the second date? That may be a reason.

I don't know how lesbian relationships work, but most men don't have a reason to divorce. Gay men generally know better than to go into marriage looking for fidelity. They KNOW the fucker is gonna cheat. They just hope he doesn't fuck up the money.

Maintain separate bank accounts and you can be married forever!

I also think women are more likely to have trouble maintaining a sexual relationship with someone they don't love or have fallen out of love with. I was reading about the architect Lutyens and his wife wrote him a letter years into their marriage saying she no longer wanted to have sex with him and that continuing to have sex with him when she didn't love him anymore was akin to being raped. I can't really picture a gay or straight man feeling that way

Lesbian drama. Christ, I'm shocked their leading cause of death isn't exhaustion. Instead of heart disease

One factor among many is probably that some women are still not doing as well financially (and bi/lesbian ones likely worse), may be dealing with the extra expenses of single parenthood, so some of these marriages may be partly based on "financial security", and rushed at that (all those U-Haul jokes have to have some degree of truth to them) After a while they realize it really won't work long term. Thinking about it, I think I only know of two couples who were married once this was legalized, and one ended up in a bitter divorce. Small sample I know but still....

r9 so, lesbians revel in victimhood and gain greater social currency because of it while gay men are more consumerist and change their circumstances to acquire privilege?

R7 Good point. Men are driven by their hormones and can easily compartmentalize their feelings. Gay men can have sex with men they detest if he is hot looking or has a body part they are attracted to.

Women expect more out of marriage than men.

The Cheryl problem.

How do these rates compare with heterosexual marriages?

Lesbians are not level headed about relationships.

r12 One would venture they expect less. . . so, they aren't particularly choosy with who they start a relationship with. Whereas males are more guarded with those they choose to open up to, in addition, it's a bitch separating your stuff after a merging.

for most males sex is a handshake whereas for most females, it's a means to an end.

so, females are generally pretty clueless about their own personal sexual desires and interests. Biologically, they also have more stuff going on that may change that down the road.

So, sexual compatibility falls low on their list.

And there we have the much hated term "lesbian bed death"

females also tend to prefer intimate circles with expected routine and respect for boundaries. they don't do as well with longterm change.

males on the other hand, often seek out the impersonal and active, they frequently seek to push boundaries, both personally and socially.

and comparatively, even str8 couples are more apt to explore sexual or relationship alternatives than lesbian couples are.

in truth, one of the bigger losses/fear for lesbians is the loss of community and social support networks.

This is why among post-op transmen that were initially lesbians are more likely to stay connected to the lesbian community vs formerly gay, post-op transwomen that are more apt to leave the gay community.

We could also go into the realities that gay men are more likely to move and travel vs lesbians that have a greater tendency to stay in the same area for numerous reasons but primarily the differences in the social aspect of the community. They build up and invest more in the external.

Likewise, it's more difficult to integrate into a new lesbian community vs gay men with social networks that are more centered around the anywhere/anytime hookup scene.

r16 i.e. while it seems counter-intuitive, gay men having greater versatility means they're able to seek more compatible relationships as well as be more apt to stay in relationships with imbalances. Whereas lesbians have a support system in place that supports whether they stay or go. Although, I theorize if lesbian couples were more likely to move outside of their established social networks every five to ten years, we would see less divorces and greatly reduce the amount of dyke drama.

Women expect more in relationships and when they don't get it, they're more likely to leave. Me have lower standards in relationships, with the exception of straight men and their expectations that their wives never cheat. They definitely have a high expectations of fidelity from their women.

r16 Lesbian bed death??

r19 a pop culture reference to why many longterm lesbian relationships come to end... the passion has died and they've become platonic roommates. A fraction of the lesbian community claims it's a myth and the rest recognize it as a trope with many truths.

It also extends to the greater hatred of bisexuals in the lesbian community than in the gay community. . . but in younger years, LBD often involves the variations of the politician lesbian - that may or may not be lesbian - but is pulled into the community often through social justice and feminism; a unifying external force.

but male or female, the majority of young bisexuals tend to marry the opposite sex. Of course, problems with both - many also fall into categories of bicurious (sexually curious but not necessarily romantically interested and questioning sexual attraction; which may also only be towards a body part or a sexual activity more common among homosexuals), only bi when high/drunk/manic/other factor or biromantic (romantically interested in a specific person of the same sex or more socially comfortable with the same sex but not necessarily attracted to the same sex in general) than those are attracted to both sexes. And there are more cases of females that avoid males because of past trauma. And sorting much of this out might only be discovered through YEARS of experience. Some theorize from an evolution standpoint, bisexuals are akin to tribal sexuality - there are benefits to bisexuality in youth and old age while there are greater benefits to heterosexuality for the ages between to promote healthier offspring. so, we see this pattern emerge in regards to monogamous relationships in various societies more frequently.

In older years, it's just the rut.. when the differences of opposites attract becomes too much. of course, too much unification has its drawbacks, too, when one partner desires to explore other avenues. . . and lesbian couples tending to be the ultimate "we" couple.

r20 Thank you. What would the evolutionary or any explanation of yours for why gay mens relationships once committed last longer?

Gay men will tolerate cheating much more, that's one reason gay men's relationships last longer. They also have less pressure to be in relationships in the first place so if they're not relationship material they're less likely to even engage, and subsequently, fail at it

r22 You think lesbians face more pressure to have or be in a a relationship?

I think women put more pressure on themselves and other women, and even straight men. That's where the societal pressure to couple up comes from, it's women driving it. Men don't give a shit, generally, even if they want to be in a relationship themselves.

r24 Ok thanks for reply.do you think what you outline might change as gay men are increasingly embracing marriage and domestication or heteronormative values as some describe it and hence there may evolve to be the same expectations on gay men as there is women? Maybe gay men in say 50 years will have those expectations as the default or the norm?

Doubtful. Straight men don't seek it now, they just have to if they want to get laid. Gay men aren't romantically involved with women so the pressure simply isn't there.

r26 Surely men who are unmarried have no problem getting laid nowadays?

Getting sex from women outside of relationships is rare. Not saying it doesn't exist, but by and large women want commitment before sex. That's why so many men manipulate women into believing they love them, it's because getting sex from women takes work.

I would love to know about how all of the gay men here know how women work in relationships (any, much less lesbian ones) what they value, why they match up, how they feel about sex and so on.

Most here seem to detest women and barely endure those they only work alongside.

And no, your mothers don't really count.

R2 gets it

r28 Do you believe men do that all of the time or that in some instances they do geniunely love a woman they are in a relationship with?

Of course there are men who genuinely love their women. But love is not nor will it ever be their primary goal. It's not that all men just want sex and sex only. But it's the truth to say the majority do. And the majority don't want relationships. Why do you care so much R31?

High rates of domestic violence.

r29 the same way queer studies, specifically that which is related to gay men, is dominated by females.

With study, experiences and loads of personal biases.

Desperate to get married, so they marry someone that's not quite right.

I know so many lesbian marriages that have broken up in the last year during Covid. And for half of them, I always thought, "Why is she with her? She can do so much better."

Whatever.

I don't know every couple is different but each time I see more younger long-term gay male couples.

r29 You're right we don't know anything about women's sexuality, we're just commenting.

r32 I find it interesting. I find your take a little too reductionstic or cynical.I think most men love a woman romantically at some point just not the majority of women they have had a relationship with. . Men are definitely more sex at first sight and love maybe later in terms of how they feel. If i care its in the sense of wondering if gay culture and hence gay men will end up like women in terms of expectations around sex and relationships or whether the behaviour is more guided by biology and human nature rather than societys norms?

It’s not too complicated.

Women with high self esteem put up with less shit.

R5, straight women also do the move in shit on the second date, or pretty damn close.

I allowed a man move in after 3 weeks!

NEVER AGAIN!

And I knew better, too. He had limp dick issues, and then when we got viagra at the doctor’s office, he started cheating on me.

I was PISSED. Kicked him to the curb ASAP. He ran around talking shit about me everywhere, and unfortunately, I repaid him in kind. I should have just been the bigger person, and kept my mouth zipped. And I would have, as I usually do.

However, he actually brought over a girl he was fucking around on me with to my place, and she attempted to confront me over this loser. I was a lady to HER that day, because she was newly sober, and I didn’t want to be a poor example to her. But I defrocked his ass all over the west side and the valley.

I take total responsibility for that mess. I was in fear. Didn’t want to end up alone, and he looked like a cross between Keanu & Brad. He was GORGEOUS. But he was a bum.

My fault. Totally for acting desperate, which wasn’t my style then, before him, or even now, actually.

Anyhow, women make relationship mistakes as much as men do. Straight, gay, lesbian, bi. I don’t think there’s that big of a difference.

Eventually, we want someone to settle down with, whom we have lots in common with, who doesn’t resemble Quasimodo (forgive my spelling-perhaps I misspelled it).

Most people don’t want to end up alone, but I’ve learned that it’s better to take that chance of ending up alone, than ending up with the wrong person.

Seeing the situation my mom ended up in, taught me a huge lesson.

Respect yourself. Yeah, no one is perfect. Sure, we struggle here and there and most of us persevere and overcome. But ending up with an abusive partner is NEVER worth it, regardless of age or life experience.

On the final analysis?

Relationships are about ending up with someone you don’t argue with 24/7. They’re about being with someone who isn’t out to control you, and DEFINITELY about one not attempting to control someone else.

Getting along with a partner genuinely, and respecting each other’s differences are very BIG deals.

The last 5 + years have really taught me what and who I never want to be or whom I never want to end up with. And I learned it mostly from my mom.

My mom REALLY fucked up.

My father ADORED her and treated her VERY well and was an EXCELLENT father to me when they were married. She threw it all away because she loves to argue. Then she found an asshole who loves to argue as much as she does, and if he cannot win the argument, he beats her to the point she ends up in a hospital.

Everyone:

If you find a good person whom you’re also attracted to? Be good to them. Work it out.

There aren’t as many chances as you believe there are when you’re young.

r39 if they had such high self esteem, how did they end up in such a shitty relationship to begin with?

I'd wager the lesbians are getting married at a much younger age than gay males. I honestly don't care enough to dig for those stats though.

r42 yes, in greater numbers, they do tend to explore relationships more at an earlier age and explore the extent of their sexuality at a later stage.

not to say, there isn't an active lesbian hookup scene. But as a whole, they also have incredibly more peer pressure to be within monogamous relationships than either gay couples or even hetero couples.

And being, they're less likely to move outside of communities they've established themselves within... much of the dyke drama comes from having exhausted the local dating pool. So, they're more likely to also be friends with their exes or at least, see them regularly within the community.

There's not as many separate factions for lesbians as compared to gay men. . . for gay men, there's a wide variety of subcultures with it's own aesthetics, interests and standards. It's more streamlined for making friends, finding hookups and relationships. . . than the lesbian potluck.

and that's without touching the politics. . . largely, the negotiations with what being a lesbian means is led to more debate among lesbians than any other group reflecting upon themselves. Heteros question their sexuality more than any of us. But being a lesbian comes with more sociopolitical baggage. So, even just saying you're "sexually" attracted to the same sex can be controversial in some corners of lesbosphere. And, yes, that is without even "trans" being tossed into the mix.

r38 the less offensive view is, that despite exceptions, the majority of males have a greater biological urge to mate, whereas females have a greater urge to nest and that this sets the tone of their relationships.

It also sets up the dynamics for what lengths males and females are willing to go to pursue a relationship, maintain a relationship and what may be their primary reasons for ending a relationship.

In general,

Females take longer to discover what they really "desire"

Males take longer to explore their boundaries and discover their limits.

heteros eclipse us both because they have more experiences with traditional dating in general, especially learning those skills and having more moderated experiences during their developmental years.

but all of us are influenced by our greater communities and the normalized standards that exists within them. .

[quote] What would the evolutionary or any explanation of yours for why gay mens relationships once committed last longer?

r21 Once you get beyond the repressive bs, for males in relationships, sex often circumvents the individual insecurities of the male, and sex is less of a chore or an obligation. It is often required for their reassurance and emotional security. So, between two males the awareness of this factor is heightened.. so we see more give or take with the circumstances that may impede upon it, such as open relationships, exploration of bringing another into the relationship or merely finding ways to adapt with new circumstances - sexual innovation or moderation.

Also, helpful that gay men usually aren't threatened by a partner's use of sex toys, porn or masturbation.

the sexual is often reduced as superficial yet it is often maintains a central emphasis within gay relationships.

This connection ends up giving them a stronger foundation that they can return to even while pursuing opposing goals or separate interests, or facing individual crises. . . because the primary connection point comes back to weight of compatibility in its totality.

Also as men, regardless of our group dynamics, we're socialized to be independent. There are some biological factors that make this more tangible but the expectation for us to be "grown ass men" - both works for us as it may hurt us. the latter, we're taught to learn to cope with any situation at hand. For all the calls of masculine toxicity, it's often the females that are quick to invoke the weakness trope. . . and there's the realities, we're not likely to receive as much public sympathies.

From the evolutionary standpoint, we can reflect on ancient history and the sheer number of tales about warrior-lovers spread throughout the world.

Or we could examine the fluidity of sexuality within the military, frats, prison, any sex segregated or isolated circumstance and examine how males interact and relate in general...

or perhaps even the sex differences of groups with survival in the wild.

our key motivations lean towards survival of the fittest

and that's not limited to physical strength.

-- now as to what the future may hold in an ever changing society... the trouble areas come with the extremism of social engineering and the mainstreaming of acquired disability or what i would term as "learned" or "socialized" autism.

Unlike the women cited in this article, I don't know any gay men who married after ridiculously short periods like one year of dating, and I don't know any gay men who cited political reasons for getting married.

Gay men are just a lot smarter about this shit.

[quote]Men don't give a shit, generally, even if they want to be in a relationship themselves.

A young, ambitious straight man I knew as a friend once told me straight-out that he and his friends believed you needed to get married and have kids by your late 20s "to get that out of the way so you can get on with your career". He meant that for straight men, having the established (suitable) wife, home and kids forms the base from which you can build your career without having to worry about the drama of dating. For the same reason, you obviously DON'T want an UNsuitable wife and the attendant drama. He's still married, now with adult children and a good career (as are most of his friends), so I guess he knew what he was talking about.

That attitude differs very markedly from almost any woman's approach, let alone a lesbian's. On the other hand, it assumes that the woman is going to do the main share of heavy lifting in making the relationship itself and the domestic arrangements that go with it work. I have a sneaking suspicion that the lesbian relationships that really work are either the rare genuine marriage of equals, or ones where one of them does (VERY tacitly) agree to carry most of the domestic and emotional weight, while the other pleases herself in everything short of infidelity. In such a situation, where that was the deal, you can see why infidelity would explode the relationship.

I'm a lesbian and have noticed a lot of lesbian couples get married really quickly. You're less likely to stay married if you don't know each other well, whether you're in a lesbian/gay or straight marriage.

It must be wearying trying to remember all the stated boundaries.

1. Failure to state boundaries prior to getting married.

2. Unwillingness to share canes.

3. Incompatible menstrual cycles.

4. Disagreements over nutloaf ingredients.

R49 wins. Thread closed.

Women in general are more way possessive and controlling than men. They must be in charge in every aspect of their relationship.

My naïve frau friend surprised that I'm totally cool with my husband jerking off to porn. She insist her husband is "nothing like that" LOL

They are prone to fight.

R29, why would you assume you are the only woman commenting here?

R51 I'm female, I'm not a prude but I believe you're right. Many women are naive when it comes to what they expect their partner to be to them. It puts their partners under a huge amount of pressure. And R5 I have a lesbian friend who just met the love of her life, literally three weeks ago. (They're both a little over 20). By now, they are engaged and are planning their wedding. What could possibly go wrong! (I know that's just anecdotal evidence.)

I knew a lesbian couple who literally moved in on their first date. There are too many examples like this for it to be written off as either a joke or an unfounded stereotype.

Another vote for R2.

Too impulsive and fantasy driven relationships. Women want those weddings while not addressing sufficiently questions of compatibilty.

r44 Thank you for your detailed reply. Lots for me to chew and digest on there. I had wrongly assumed that gay men were more likely to divorce due to incompatibility over the long term and conflict over silly dramas.

R51, tell that to all the jealous, controlling men who beat and kill their wives

I don't buy that women are more possessive than men euthery. Nothing enrages straight men more than finding out their girlfriend/wife is cheating on them or watching porn where the men have bigger dicks.

Open relationships are fine in gay relationships because it's two men but men do not want women looking outside their relationship for sex, though they themselves do it all the time.

Either^^

t58 well, I would say females are better at handling incremental changes, whereas males tend to be frustrated by them. And yet more males can more easily adapt to major changes, whereas for females it's often the deal breaker.

Which gets into the tendency of males to be goal oriented and females tending to be outcome oriented.

These traits are more easily recognized in other aspects of life.

Women have a higher tolerance for small inconsequential changes, especially, if they feel it will help them achieve or maintain their desired outcomes - their trouble area tends to be with facing major obstacles or challenges. Their mental health tends to suffer with threats to their personal comfort and overall sense of harmony in their safe space; so, they tend to be more risk adverse and prone to escalating anxieties. . . that if left unchecked may become a major crisis for them. -- all in all, they have a more difficult time managing stress in relationships because they can't be honest about what they want, like food at a restaurant, they know what they DON'T want but in the meantime, they want to eat off your plate.

Males tend to handle major crises better but become more easily frustrated with the excessive and inconsequential ... especially those that impede upon the pursuit of their goals. They're overall more stable when they have challenges to face and tend to become cagey, claustrophobic, stagnant when they don't. Their more apt to repress or compartmentalize their thoughts and feelings. Communication tends to be poorer than females. So, their mental health fares better when they have outlets for stress and maintain regular longterm goals to pursue - even mere superficial ones. Sex is a great stress release and might even get some aggression out, and dudes tend to be more up for it more frequently than females.

women tend to be high maintenance -- they also tend to lash out when challenged because of their massive insecurities, much like the few that keep popping up in this thread to proclaim how independent, the bestest, they are and how evil everyone else is. -- which we could also call risk averse in the fear of challenging themselves and their perceptions. Dudes are generally more in touch with their insecurities even if they don't communicate it well.

R39 I wouldn't stereotype lesbians as having high self esteem. Lesbians as a demographic have many great qualities, that's not one of them.

[quote] 3. Incompatible menstrual cycles.

Tell me you don't know anything about women without telling me you don't know anything about women.

Interesting. But in my admittedly breezy read of the article I missed any solid details on the *rise* increasing for women.

In the U.S., I was aware that lesbians divorce more than gay men from what are now old statistics. But is the spread increasing as the title suggests?

[quote]Women want those weddings while not addressing sufficiently questions of compatibilty.

True of well over 80% of all women, I reckon. It's got worse in social media times, because a wedding = the most attention you're ever going to get, if you're not marrying the Prince of Wales.

I also agree with R51. Women who consider themselves essentially "nice" are mostly astonishingly naive about sexuality in general, and men's in particular. It doesn't get better with age, either.

r59 r60 this is about gay male couples vs lesbian couples not about crazy hetero breeders . Heterosexual dynamics and expectation still bounds by traditional mores way different from same sex relationships.

R51 She is indeed naive. I don't think there is a man alive (gay or straight) who has never jacked off to porn.

r68 Very naive to put it mildly!!😁

I've had women say that to me before. That their husbands don't use porn or masturbate.

And some say men don't understand women. It clearly goes both way.

Inherent toxic masculinity of lesbians.

Gays always have a "woman" in the relationship but Lesbians never have a man. Bumping pussies gets boring.

Are Che and Miranda included in this or no because Che is neither man nor woman.

r70 Good point very true.

What say the Pittsburgh Lesbians?

Women still have a hard time admitting that they aren’t interested in things society says they should want and pursue. My ex husband was exasperated with me, constantly, because I just didn’t care about the things he expected me to be. I don’t know what you’re going to have for dinner; I had a tuna sandwich. I don’t know where your socks are; I picked up the dry cleaning, did my laundry and the sheets and stuff. Your socks are your responsibility. I’m going to the club in the Bronx Saturday; no you can’t come, it’s just me and my girls. Lol I’m just grateful he didn’t strangle me.

That was 23 year old me. Fast forward to 39 year old me. I waited for my partner to get out of the shower, with a towel and dried her off. I called to find out what she felt like for dinner and either ordered it or made it 3 times a week. I did laundry; she cleaned.

You have to realize when you’re not who you’ve been expected to be; ask people what they want and expect from you. Decide if you even want to attempt to give it with this person and with an open dialogue. Talk to the person; don’t hold grudges and be honest. My boss tells me all the things she’s unhappy about in her marriage, but doesn’t tell her husband. WTF

The greeks claimed there was no stronger love bond than the one between two men. As someone with many ex boyfriends, I can attest to the truth of this statement. I keep up with all of them, and the ones that don't want to communicate, I support their go fund me pages, or donate to their charities, or go to their gallery exhibitions, after opening night, when I know they'll be hungover. Gay men don't give up on love, we just put it in a different box, so we can find the right place for it. We're good organizers.

Women, lesbians, whatever you want to categorize it... They have to either elevate something or burn it to the ground. It seems... to me... from my vantage point of great male privilege lol

Have long maintained that marriage does not benefit women, straight or gay, as much as it does men.

Females retain more autonomy and happiness living either alone or communally with other women friends/family.

R51/R66 the misunderstanding you have about porn-watching is contextual.

Porn is not degrading to the political beinghood of men—it can’t hurt the patriarchy, can’t hurt the safety and social standing of men in general. So of course it’s nbd in a relationship between two men. Why would it be?

In a relationship with women, whether one or two or more females, porn is automatically a sociopolitical problem, and should be. Because it makes women objects and commodities with no agency beyond how much money a ‘star’ (likely trafficked) can get for the next dehumanising act on the checklist.

My husband and I dated for 3 years before we contemplated moving in together. That, and we were both in our 40s when we got together so we had aged out of “the scene.” There is more to life.

I think it's a combination of 2 things:

1. Moving too fast in a relationship, just wanting to be coupled-up.

2. Being more proactive (than men) about getting a divorce.

The economic thing probably plays into the pairing up too fast. (Women making less $ than men.)

I've lived with partners before as DINKs and it's amazing how much more economical that is than living in my own place.

Aren't nuptials like part of every Lesbian second date?

r24 being elder gay and working around many many straight men (I work on film crews for 30+ years) I can say honestly that there are a lot of straight guys that do not want to be alone. There are a lot of straight guys that wanted to be married and be fathers. I have me very few men whose true choice would be to be single and fuck whatever female they want whenever they want. Straight guys like security just as much as women do.

[quote]Desperate to get married, so they marry someone that's not quite right.

The straight guys I met when first in the business when they were single fall into this category, I watched them all start selecting the women they would marry. I never heard them talk about love or being in love although with a couple of guys I could see they were smitten and felt they were getting "a good one".

But everyone of them felt "it was time" and one by one they got married and had families. It's been an education and witnessing it made me really happy I'm not straight.

Our bullshit society has made monogamous straight marriage a rite of passage for ‘becoming a real man’ (whatever the fuck that means), and for ‘completing’ oneself. When really it’s just rape-as-practise, and everyone selling themselves for a Disneyfied Platonic dream.

I guess mental illness would be, uh... out of the question?!?

Back when I was still teaching (community college), when the Civil Rights section came up (American Government class), I used to tell my students, "I don't give a damn about gay marriage; I can't even find a woman I want to date, much less marry!"

r79 What makes you say porn stars are likely trafficked?

Bear in mind that population numbers have much to do with this. Kinsey 5 & 6 Lesbians report in fewer numbers than any other legitimate sexual minority group, so the pickings are slim to begin with. Then factor in the vicissitudes of love that we all face; the low likelihood of every lesbian finding another with whom she’s highly compatible as a life partner....

R89 speaks truth.

And it sucks.