Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine, the REAL Part IV

Continuation of Part 3

Thank you OP!

Gracias, OP.

Merci, OP.

Putin is continuing to bluster and is threatening to cut off gas to Europe if "the West" halts oil imports. He's getting more and more desparate.

Hvala, OP.

*despErate

correcting myself before someone else does :)

R5. I saw that. He's insane if he thinks cutting off his last source of revenue is a good idea. It's either bluster or he really thinks Russians would be OK going back to sustenance farming 16 hours a day.

LNG levels have been restored in Europe. He's pissing into the wind on that one:

Putin could retaliate by cutting off Europe’s gas in a last-ditch attempt to throw the West off-balance, but this weapon has lost its potency after weeks of mild weather and copious deliveries of US liquefied natural gas. European gas storage was dangerously low at New Year after months of manipulated flows from Gazprom. Today it is back within its historical range.

China will purchase Russia when all is said and done.

We need more people to save the cats of Ukraine!

For a seven year in the making plan, this is shocking in it's ineptitude. I still believe the ugly little yard gnome was diagnosed with a terminal illness and miscalculated badly out of desperation. Maybe he felt he was running out of time?

Archive link for R9

I'm sure they will R10, but for reduced prices. I'm not sure China is going to be very happy with Putin soon either though.

Time for hot ukranian priest to bless this thread

R15- Nice.

Yes, despite the trolls who keep coming on to downplay the Russians' errors, this invasion looks like it'll be a cautionary tale taught in military schools for years to come.

Oh, and in three and half hours the sun will rise on the thirteenth day of battle and the Russians still don't hold Kyiv, and have to use local phone service.

[quote]So, why has RT been banned / forced to close over its alleged "spreading of misinformation",

A couple of important distinctions. The NYT is a news business owned by shareholders and the founding family.

RT is financed by the Russian government. It's literally state-controlled media aka media of the Putin regime. Spreading disinformation and propaganda IS their raison d'etre. Unlike NYT or normal "mainstream" media, they never acknowledge or apologize for their disinfo just like FauxNews.

[quote]In September 2017, RT America was ordered to register as a foreign agent with the United States Department of Justice under the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

R11, told you bitches I was hardcore!

"The horror of this war will backfire on Putin."

[quote]China will purchase Russia when all is said and done.

Before this happens Russia will install a democratic leader and they will join NATO. You can trust China only as far as you can throw them.

Putin has already turned Russia into a Chinese client state.

[quote]Before this happens Russia will install a democratic leader and they will join NATO

NATO exists as a counter to the USSR/Russia. What purpose would NATO serve if Russia joined?

Yeah, highly doubtful that the Russian markets will open tomorrow (if they ever do again).

Moody's predicting Russia will default on its debt by mid-April

Hoping Ukraine can somehow minimize the carnage until then.

Ukrainian member of parliament Kira Rudick was just on NBC News Now. She kept demanding a no-fly zone. When the reporter asked, to paraphrase, "Well, if you have a no-fly zone, you'd probably have to enforce it, meaning NATO could end up in armed conflict and could end up shooting down Russian planes—couldn't that potentially lead to a wider conflict and escalation (nukes)?", she said, to paraphrase, "Well, it's a wider conflict already (?) and there could be a nuclear disaster and radioactive fallout doesn't care about who's a NATO member or not. And he's going to go after Poland and Lithuania. It's already snowballed. He's like Hitler and you're basically appeasing him."

She surely understands the administration's position and what escalation could mean, but still demands it. She doesn't seem to care about escalation or that everyone on the planet could die as a result. I think nationalism (she ended with "glory to Ukraine") is blinding her to what could happen beyond Ukraine. She's willing to roll the dice, risking human survival rather than just accept Russia's proposal from today.

And really, the war would stop if Ukraine surrendered; fewer people would die if they surrendered today rather than next week (that's just true). Isn't one life more valuable than joining NATO and keeping Crimea?

(And if NATO stays out, Russia isn't going to attack a NATO country; nuclear powers don't fight each other directly, thank goodness.)

Even more desperation

Again with the sinophobia, entitlement, and childish resentment at not getting your way.

How about the EU and US solve this since they appointed themselves the heroes of this drama?

How about not childishly resenting that China doesn't want to get involved and won't act against its interests just because two white great powers, the EU and US, demand it? Nor will India, the Arab world, and most of Africa come running to serve the West against their own interests just because entitled white men and women in suits from other continents demand it.

Duly noted. Your "interests" come before any the good of anyone but yourselves and "white men" in suits.

OMG after I posted R22 I read Paul Krugman's latest column and he uses the same phrase! Is Krugman a DLer??? I've been saying since that since last week—it seems truer than ever now. As Krugman points out, Russia has a GDP one tenth China's and would be very much the junior partner in any partnership. This is what Putin's power grab has accomplished. It just seems incredible that while the Chinese go on laying careful plans for future dominance, the Russians have pissed away all their potential national wealth in favor of a flashy oligarchy and bombast about global power. All hollow.

God forbid developing countries comprised of peoples of color watch out for their own interests, r28.

But at least you get it. So cut the entitlement— Coolie isn't coming to serve master anymore.

So Europe is still dependent on Russia for oil. So there is no way Europe is “cutting off Russia”. Germany basically said they will keep giving Russia billions for oil. This is not over - Putin has the upper hand still because he controls the oil and gas. Energy independence is the only way to control Russia.

Putin is just poking at NATO, begging for one little excuse to fire nuclear warheads into Europe and the U.S.

Putin's control over Russian oil and gas by no means assures him the "upper hand." The cold season is on its way out, Europe can find other sources of oil, and the other economic pressures on Russia are tremendous.

Putin doesn't need an excuse to fire nuclear warheads. He could do it anytime he pleases. Just like how he invaded Ukraine. Putin is a bully (the same as Trump). With a bully, you have to force them to "put up or shut up". It's time for that little fucker to "put up or shut up" or he will continue to blackmail the west with nukes.

R29 I've always thought DL was popular with journalists. Our irreverence and ideas and even the rigor we demand are a goldmine.

R25, I’m just curious….do you think Hitler would have won if the US didn’t get involved in WW2? If there is a time and place for the US to get involved, when exactly is that?

I honestly don’t think we will know if we used the correct strategy until it is in hindsight. If Putin succeeds, and he then proceeds to say, invade Poland, the US will second guess our strategy.

R36, I don't know. Maybe as in our world the Germans would have gotten stuck in the Russian winter and the Soviets would have finished them off, all the way to Berlin. I don't know.

I think Biden will fulfill the obligations of Article Five if Russia proceeds to attack a NATO state. Whether that necessarily escalates to nukes, I don't know, but it's possible. That said, I very much doubt Putin is going to invade a NATO country as long as NATO doesn't directly attack Russian planes or troops.

The Soviets eviscerated the Nazi war machine; the US had very little to do with Hitler's inevitable doom, they just sped it up.

Is it possible that there’s a link that the breakaway region of Russian separatists who have attacked Ukrainian in Donetsk have simply moved south to Mariupol and massacring the Ukraine civilians as a rogue attack force? It is possible that these medieval killers don’t give a damn who they kill. Don’t forget these savages shot down the Malaysian airplane over Donbas and took no responsibility for it.

These Russian separatist forces have been operating outside of Putin’s control since 2014. They are hardened soldiers with years of combat experience now and likewise, Putin has never claimed any connection no matter what crimes this rogue unit commits. They simply do whatever they want. Just think, now this rabid group has access to unlimited, advanced artillery and ammo. Perhaps this is why no official ceasefire in Mariupol has been acknowledged. These war dogs must smell easy prey as the innocents try to evacuate.

[quote] there is a time and place for the US to get involved, when exactly is that?

R36, sorry, I didn't address this. Do you mean today in relation to Ukraine? Or with Germany in WWII? Or generally?

R38 Historical illiterate.

R34 Been there done that.

Russia’s military looks bad in Ukraine. Much weaker than people expected. For comparison Germany had an army of 16 million while Russia is invading with 150k. This is nothing like WW2 in terms of scale.

It’s not clear the US would have ever entered. WW2 unless attacked first. They provided weapons and money but not soldiers until forced in by Japan. But with NATO the US will have to fight for Poland. No way out of that.

Hitler insisted Russia was coming for Europe one way or another and even after learning of their material superiority in 1941 said he would've attacked anyway. He said this to his Finnish allies in 1942 in a secret recording. He regarded himself as a bulwark against Bolshevism in Europe.

R38. The Soviets were doing well but not THAT well. If there hadn't been pressure on Hitler's war machine from the West I doubt the Soviets would have made it to Berlin. It seems more likely to me that they would have fought to a stalemate at some point.

Yes, the US was not completely integral to WWII but I'm not completely sold that the Allies could have done it without them. The US did supply a LOT of money, achieved through rounds and rounds of war bonds sold to the American public, and excellent technology. The weapons tanks that the US provided were more fine-tuned than Hitler's Wunderwaffe a lot of the time.

But Hitler's mistakes also played a big role in his defeat. He severely underestimated the use of U-Boats for example, which early and aggressive use of might have given Germany a significant advantage by sinking crap tons of cargo being shipped by the Allies. By the time Hitler promoted the u-boat leader though the US had already developed radar and other counter-tactics to render u-boats relatively unworkable.

I'm not a historian but there was two Netflix series which talked about the events of WW2 that were very informative (I thought).

Sorry I disagree R45. US weaponry was seriously under-performing and out of date by the time we hit the beaches. Sherman tanks were known as Ronson Lighters. They were blown up like toys in the face of German tanks. The US did offer a lot of material super to the Soviets however, most notably trucks and jeeps. The failure of the Enigma system led to the crushing losses of Hitler's U-boat force.

NATO got involved in the Balkans War so there's already a precedent to intervene in non NATO countries for humanitarian reasons and in the interest of peace and security in Europe.

Behind the scenes vigorous negotiations are in play, but if things don't turn around soon, and if evidences of atrocities against civilians increase NATO is going to make a move. As it should.

Wow, Morgan Stanley thinks that Russia is heading for a Venezuela-style default. Yes, still an analyst opinion but big if true.

R46. I think that Ronson thing is a myth since I've read that Ronson didn't start using that slogan till the 50s. I defer though since most of my knowledge comes from the Events documentary.

Breaking Enigma was also, obviously, an amazing development. One I don't believe was possible if some idiot on a u-boat hadn't allowed the Allies to capture one intact.

A similar appearance by Ukrainian member of parliament Kira Rudick. This is from MSNBC whereas the one I'm talking about at R25 was on NBC News Now.

Charismatic but I think somewhat blinded to what's beyond her borders and hyped to delusion by nationalism.

Her main idea seems to be "NATO must go to war now because Putin might invade NATO. Who cares if nukes are used; Russians are already damaging nuclear power plants and that could lead to another Chernobyl."

🤔🤨

R47, the Serbs weren't protected by a Russian nuclear umbrella. If NATO gets involved, we may not survive.

She's coorect IMO. See r47.

The Poles had already captured a couple Enigma machines by 1939, R49. Ronsons were widely used by US soldiers in WWII.

Interesting R53. Didn't though they had captured some so early in the war.

Ronson obviously has been around for some time. I was referring to the "lights first time every time" slogan that gets attached to the Sherman. Fairly certain that was a fable.

^^ Supposed to say "didn't know they had captured some..."

R51. NATO would get involved only to establish a no fly zone. Europe has to be strong and stand up to Putin or he'll never stop breaking international law.

Rattling the nukes is just unforgivable.

R56. I do think Europe and the US needs to be a little more proactive about escalation but they are taking, not unreasonably, the approach of waiting to see whether the current strategies are sufficient before gambling with MAD.

It is possible that Putin will essentially enslave his country and press on with the attack regardless, in which case NATO will have to think a bit more seriously about brinkmanship.

R56, how is a no-fly zone enforced? Shooting down Russian planes. That means war.

Tucker agrees we're in WWIII. I post this because this is what a plurality of cable news watchers will see.

It's already war.

R61, war with NATO means nuclear war. Right now it's not war with NATO.

This is what young men in America are hearing.

Oh well if that that fat face Tucker fucker says so than clearly it must be R60.

I would argue it's already a form of WWIII because countries all over the world are taking sides, joining in with sanctions or supplying help. It's just not 'official'.

Better video.

R64, the point is to see what he's spreading to his viewers. The lies, etc.

Tulsi Gabbard today. Russian asset?

OK, R65. Exactly WHICH "countries all over the world" are "taking sides"?

Last time I checked, it was Russia and Belarus against EVERYONE ELSE. Countries sitting on the sidelines don't count.

Oh right, R67. Well his lies are stupid.

Saying we're in WW3 is over-dramatic. It's more like a renewed Cold War if anything.

R69 Check out the UN resolution and which countries joined Russia. Yes, they were a bunch of unimpressive ones including Venezuela and Eritrea but it isn't just Russia and Belarus. And it's still a world-wide conflict even if it's just Russia and Belarus, I don't really get that argument.

[Quote]war with NATO means nuclear war.

You sound scared. Putin is counting on this.

[quote]Fairly certain that was a fable.

It was.

[quote] Sorry I disagree [R45]. US weaponry was seriously under-performing and out of date by the time we hit the beaches. Sherman tanks were known as Ronson Lighters. They were blown up like toys in the face of German tanks.

This proves what? Any weapons system has vulnerabilities. The Sherman tank liberated France and conquered Germany.

Not only did we use the Sherman, the British and Free French forces did too. It was reliable and fast. In 1945 you don’t see images of Panther Tanks in Massachusetts. You see images of Sherman tanks in Westphalia and Bavaria.

Russian mililtary striking a lot of oil depots around Ukraine. Fuel may start getting scarce for Ukrainian military and civilians soon.

Reminder here that the Russians still can severely wreck Ukraine, if are unlikely to win a long term occupation, because they just have so much more equipment.

Russia's tactic does seem to be to constantly lie and gaslight. Russia's ambassador to the UN, Vasily Nebenzya, was today in the Security Council, claiming Ukrainians are shelling themselves.

BEWARE!! R75 = Vladimir

Yes, it's a horrible truth R75. I think Europe and the US has done the cold calculus of war and determined that Russia will just grind itself to bankruptcy against Ukraine, no matter how many lives are lost in the process.

Horrible, and I'm sure everyone wishes they could do more, but in the end I don't think they see the nuclear and PR gamble from more direct intervention as worth it. The head understands even if the heart will not forgive.

How much longer can they keeep shooting, r75? They are depleting ordinance and don’t have a deep reserve. Where will the money come from to buy more?

By the way, the comparisons to Germany in 1939 are foolish. The Nazi juggernaut blew through Poland in weeks. France was conquered in a little over a month. The Balkans were steamrolled. Russia came within a hairs breath of falling too.

Meanwhile Russia invades a vastly smaller neighbor and stalls out a few miles from the border, being reduced to indiscriminate shelling that is brutal and Neanderthal but can only last so long.

So, where’s the comparison?

R77 I'm not pro-Russia at all. Just a realist.

That's not necessary R77. I think R75 was just pointing out the human cost to this war. That lies squarely on Putin who doesn't know when to cut his losses and accept defeat like a big boy.

Putin is obviously a person who just shot anyone who so much as beat him at chess.

Why does everyone think Putin is this mentally unbalanced, out of control loose cannon who has no plan? Has he ever demonstrated that kind of behavior? Everything he does is meticulously planned out. He's three steps ahead of you- and laughing.

Remember: Putin acts, everyone else reacts.

The sanctions are nice, but I'm sure that was all factored into his plan.

Wake. Up.

From Washington Post:

[quote]The Ukrainian military has mounted an unexpectedly fierce defense against invading Russian forces, which have been dogged by logistical problems and flagging morale. But the war is barely two weeks old, and in Washington and European capitals, officials anticipate that the Russian military will reverse its early losses, setting the stage for a long, bloody insurgency.

[quote]The ways that Western countries would support a Ukrainian resistance are beginning to take shape. Officials have been reluctant to discuss detailed plans, since they’re premised on a Russian military victory that, however likely, hasn’t happened yet. But as a first step, Ukraine’s allies are planning how to help establish and support a government-in-exile, which could direct guerrilla operations against Russian occupiers, according to several U.S. and European officials.

Please R82. Try and at least live somewhere adjacent to this reality. Putin is rapidly being revealed as a moron. He's not a chessmaster, he's not a master manipulator, he's an aging dictator with an ego bigger than Russia and so deluded about his own prowess he can't conceive of the fact that he's completely overplayed his hand.

R84 Yes, I genuinely don't know what the end-game of this is him now and it looks like sheer petulance/bull-headedness that he is continuing to wage this. He's wrecking his economy and Russia's international standing over a war he is unlikely to get his objectives from. Attacking in the first place was based on a huge gamble that the Ukrainians would surrender quickly and that the West would be weak - neither of which transpired. I guess he never learnt about the 'sunken cost fallacy'.

R63 OMFG, this country is doomed if that's the best we've got.

R46 Stupid Son-of-a-Bitch.

That stupid bitch Sunny Hostin was on The View today defending opera singer Anna Netrebko, the piece of shit Putin cult member whose career is quite rightly dunzo now. Hostin really can be quite the moron. At least Ana Navarro put her in her place.

Sunny always plays the race card, too.

I wonder if Ukraine will go on offense when they have nothing to lose. And go on the attack instead of defensive moves.

Military expert Rob Lee: "That means 70-75% of Russia's total battalion tactical groups is committed plus Rosgvardia, army/division-level assets, and possibly contract reservists. To mass this force, the Russian military is stretched thin leaving it vulnerable if another crisis occurs."

It would be awesome indeed if someone attacked Russia so that they'd be fighting on two fronts... I know it's unlikely to happen though.

R83, they may be preparing for that (and they should), but nobody knows what’s going to happen, including “Western officials.”

What seems clear is, Russian logistics are very stretched, and the morale of the Russian soldiers is very low. So, how long can they blast the Ukrainian cities? And once they do, who goes in to dig the Ukrainian troops out?

Have we heard anything on the invasion from RT's favorite American whore, General Mike Flynn?

R93 He's blathering on about it being Biden's fault. Somehow. The contortions he must have to make to get to that are so fucked. I hate those people, they're useful idiots.

Going back to the question of whether the Soviet Union could have beaten Germany in WWII without the US' entry into the war, this video gives some important perspective. It's worth the 18+ minutes--it catalogs the deaths in WWII by country, year, location, civilian v. military, and in comparison to other wars and other atrocities. One thing that it shows clearly is that the Soviets caused the most harm to Germany, but on the other hand it shows the absolutely catastrophic loss of in the Soviet Union compared to every other country. As decisive as Stalingrad was, it just doesn't seem possible the Soviets could have sustained that kind of loss for much longer had the Allies not opened up another front on D-Day.

Something similar was happening in the Pacific theater as well--China was enduring catastrophic loss and it just doesn't seem possible they could have sustained it without the US coming in and ratcheting up Japanese casualties as well.

What’s the end game here? It doesn’t seem to have a logical ending.

The Russians told the Ukrainian negotiating party what it wants. During this third meeting yesterday.

1. Ukraine becomes a neutral country, writing it into its constitution. It pledges that it can never join NATO or the EU.

2. Ukraine recognizes that Crimea is part of Russia.

3. Ukraine recognizes the two new republics in the Donbas.

If they refuse and continue to fight, Ukraine may cease being an independent state.

R97 link

Fuck their demands!

and you believe the Russians? Because I don't.

And the genie is out of the bottle either way - the Ukrainians have said loudly that they don't want that and won't surrender.

Just look at Russia and how full-on totalitarian it is now. Journalists and educated people fleeing the country, you're not even allowed to say the word "war", ruled by a dictator (not a democracy), stagnant economy and conditions, a country that invades other countries, is becoming fascist. The Ukrainians don't want that for their country.

LVIV, Ukraine (AP) — Russian President Vladimir Putin warned Saturday that Ukrainian statehood is in jeopardy and likened the West's sanctions on Russia to "declaring war," while a promised cease-fire in the besieged port city of Mariupol collapsed amid scenes of terror

... Putin continued to pin the blame for the war squarely on the Ukrainian leadership and slammed their resistance to the invasion.

"If they continue to do what they are doing, they are calling into question the future of Ukrainian statehood," he said. "And if this happens, it will be entirely on their conscience."

If Ukraine surrenders today, there'll be fewer deaths from war than if they keep fighting and/or surrender later.

If they don't surrender, he's going to destroy it completely and carve it up even more. He'll channel to Ukraine's far west insurgents and newly government-armed criminals (bandits, looters, organized crime). They'll fight over territory over there using all the arms from the West, as in Syria (Idlib is a catchment for all that).

That said, it's obvious that this is going to drag on. The Ukrainians seem locked into fighting this to the end.

You are right R103. And it will be entirely on Putin for all the destruction and the slaughter he has wrought.

Boy, the troll I have blocked on this thread sure does post a lot. I can tell from the gaps and from people engaging with him. (E.G. R97, R98, R102, R103 )

Maybe ignore him instead of arguing with him?

How dare they continue to resist invasion and indiscriminate shelling!

The latest.

Maps. There was an interesting piece in Foreign Policy and these maps — in fact very little of the red areas shown is actually held securely by the RGF.

I'll name him the Vichy France troll.

[quote] He's blathering on about it being Biden's fault.

All of tRump’s acolytes and enablers are singing from the same flawed, inaccurate, bullshit songbook: Biden is “weak” and Putin didn’t do this on Cheatolini’s watch and wouldn’t have invaded if our useless idiot had still been in office. Yesterday, Chuck Toad pointed out to Nikki Haley on Meet the Press how her assertion omitted all of tRump’s attempts to favor Russia, help oligarchs, and weaken our response. Her take: “well, he tried, but he wasn’t ultimately successful.” 🙄🙄🙄🙄

Actually r103 if the USA bans Russian oil, it’s likely that Putin’s gangster state will be overthrown, perhaps as early as mid-spring — maybe even earlier.

R105 the poster you referred to doesn't seem like a troll. Maybe he just had a different take on something and you got pissy and blocked him? DL works better if you scroll past posts you don't like, rather than blocking unless someone is completely unhinged and being a racist or something. Just a suggestion intended to be helpful.

Ukraine risks being an independent state? Didn't he just say last week it wasn't one?

R112 the poster he blocked is a Russian disinfo agent. Fuck off, Boris.

R114 the particular posts he referred to didn't read that way to me. And FYI I'm the OP of this thread, so if anyone should fuck off.....

[quote]Did that boy ever, ever pick up a book...? Nope, R86, but he's watched hours and hours and hours of Joe Rogan and Russell Brand etc. on Youtube and they told him he now has the secret knowledge the brainwashed sheeple don't have.

Sorry, the quote should end after "a book...?"

How long will this ceasefire last do you think? 5 minutes? 10?

Mariupol residents have been trapped by Russian assault and have no access to running water, electricity, or heat. A humanitarian crisis is coming.

It already arrived R119. Sadly.

EU to announce plan tomorrow to cut 80% Russian gas imports *this* year, and full Russian import cut "well before" 2030.

Incredibly if true R121. Putin will be in full panic mode now.

R31 Many in Germany (and not only there) believed that trade relations to Russia would lock them in mutual dependency. There is some truth in it but the question right now is who has who by the balls. What Germany has though is time - Russia does not. When it comes to trade relations or any business relations, reliability is an important factor. Putin single-handedly burned any flimsy trust that was ever developed. There will be no new pipeline now, and Germany will find alternatives. Russia's most important trade partner in this regard is China, by the way.

Poor delusional DL millennials, who never seen a real war in their lives and fighting wars on social media. Yes, you keep believing the bullshit the media and your governments are feeding you, while Putin steamrolling through.

Meanwhile, Israel's PM, Bennett: "..Israel's security echelon is diverging from the U.S. defense establishment, convinced that Russia will plow through Ukraine despite surprising Ukrainian victories..."

Putin is not "steamrolling through", regardless of what Israel supposedly believes R124. The rest of that article isn't necessarily wrong though - Russia might eventually take Kyiv and some of the other major cities in Ukraine. They also might not.

The question is: how is Russia going to hold Ukraine? Their economy is in tatters and their army overextended. The numerous mistakes we are witnessing from Russia's army is a sign they are not prepared for a conventional war, much less a guerilla one.

I'm sure Israel is keen to act as a mediator on this conflict, perhaps explaining their public position on Ukraine's defensive capabilities, but I don't they'll find either side particularly receptive.

R125, It'a simple. They driving Ukrainians out. They will flatten the place, killing the remaining resistance and then they re-populate or may not even bother to do that. All these corridors are to flood Europe with refugees.

R27 = Imran Khan

Russian media reports that Zelensky is now ready to accept Russian terms of surrender.

That will simply not happen R126. There are 44 million Ukrainians, only 1.5 of whom have left so far. Tens of thousands of fighters are heading to Ukraine to fight. Assuming Russia does manage to get control of key areas they will be fighting a guerilla campaign unless they are willing to level the entire country and all its infrastructure to the ground.

But then they'll have control of a big patch of dirt that they can't do anything with because they'll be bankrupt. All the oil and natural resources in the world are useless if you can't extract them.

And repopulate? I know you can't be serious. People aren't grown in cloning vats overnight like this is a game of Civilizations. If they move people from Russia to Ukraine they'll just be moving jobs from one patch of dirt to another. That doesn't provide any benefit at all for decades. In fact, probably a net cost depending on how many Russian soldiers get killed in the process. Every soldier lost is a young fit male, fit for a multitude of jobs, that could be doing something productive right now. Instead they're dying in a war.

R129, let's see.

[QUOTE] would argue it's already a form of WWIII because countries all over the world are taking sides, joining in with sanctions or supplying help. It's just not 'official'.

So were we at war with South Africa too during Apartheid?

Imran Khan, president of Pakistan since 1996, made an angry speech in support of Putin yesterday, asking why Russia should be 'bossed about' by the west. Maybe Pakistan will send weapons or men to help the tyrant.

R129. Bless you for mentioned Sid Meier’s Civilization.

There’s some pretty naive people here that think if, IF Pootie wins, things will work well for him afterwards.

BWHAAAAA…HA…

Those who can't differentiate between a differing opinion and Russian propaganda are as bad as Trumpists stuck in their bubble. If you follow realistic reporting/analysis (not just commercial infotainment with crying babies, displaced dogs, and star anchors), you'll hear similar realist assessments as have been expressed here. (See the link--all anti-Russia, with different views of how it's going and why.) My deepest wish is for Vlad to be Ceaușescu'd, now. But realistically, it could also end up very badly for Ukraine.

R129, you're aware that the Russians/Soviets have often moved populations around for geopolitical reasons?

Nobody's under the illusion things will go swimmingly for Ukraine R134. That ship sailed the minute Putin invaded.

Also, I appreciate you linking the podcast but 1.) I don't like podcasts and, 2.) I don't have an hour to listen to one. No chance there's a transcript right?

And obviously people were/are moved around all the time for political reasons but my point was that it doesn't exactly provide much benefit in a scenario where Ukraine is a blasted wasteland.

I've been wanting to know how many Russians support the war.

These people claim to have taken an independent survey and found: 59% of Russians support the war, 22% oppose it. Under 30, 40% are against; over 65, only 11%. The main difference is 73% of war supporters trust state media, 85% of war opponents don't.

Navalny's twitter account also posted surveys of Moscow internet users over time, arguing that the trend won't look good for Putin.

R135, I guess that depends on whether it is a blasted wasteland. So far, the shelling seems to be more about terrorizing them into submission (which could of course change and even devolve into nuclear attacks to "escalate to de-escalate). As far as I know, their industry is in the eastern/Russian region, so not likely they'll level it. Otherwise, Ukraine is mostly wheat fields?

Has Putin been dumb all along and we just didn't realize it? The threat to cut off gas to Europe is astonishingly stupid. It's one of the few avenues of income they still have going and he wants to cut it off. Unfathomable.

R134, on the off chance that you're for real, there's something you need to understand: everything you say sounds like trolling. You're combative and confrontational for no reason, snotty, superior, and you resort to ad hominem at the drop of a hat. If someone calls you a troll, it's far more likely to be because of how you behave than it is about what you say.

R138, you don't get it. Do you! They don't give a fuck. Here, what they propose.

Puttie is not dumb, per sé…just deeply afflicted. There’s a difference.

Meanwhile, the assault on the freedom of press in Europe continues using this war as an excuse.

[quote] Again with the sinophobia, entitlement, and childish resentment at not getting your way. How about the EU and US solve this since they appointed themselves the heroes of this drama? How about not childishly resenting that China doesn't want to get involved and won't act against its interests just because two white great powers, the EU and US, demand it? Nor will India, the Arab world, and most of Africa come running to serve the West against their own interests just because entitled white men and women in suits from other continents demand it.

Forgive us that we are not as enthralled with China as you seem to be, R27. For YEARS now, billions of individuals worldwide have been directly impacted by a virus that originated in Wuhan. Skullduggery, misdirection, and lack of transparency only aided and abetted the release of the deadly human virus from CHINA throughout the PLANET: impacting lives, livelihoods, economies, governments, animals and the well-being of EVERYONE.

So perhaps check yourself before defending the great “Sino” Authoritarian country.

Many are Not Impressed.

[quote]Former Chinese Resident

How was the food?

There us NO fucking sinophobia here, you asshat! I am a half-Chinese, half Nordic Russian (Eurasian) American male and this has nothing to do with hate for the Chinese! Why don’t you study what Xi Jinping is doing to obliterate western values of democracy and human rights in China (I.e. Uighurs and the outright hostility towards gay rights, etc.) taking your country back in decades progress and see how much he and now China mirrors a close attachment to Putin. Don’t bring that anti-Asian hate crap here on Datalounge!

[quote]God forbid developing countries comprised of peoples of color watch out for their own interests

Oh, are you pretending this is all about racism now? That's cute, and I'm sure it's genuine and not just some petulant little temper tantrum you're having because people are starting to call you out for spamming these threads with your idiotic ideas and insults.

I liked it in the last thread when you called everyone dummies and stupid old people, then posted a link to Joe Rogan's opinion about the Russian invasion.

The city of Kharkiv looks like Aleppo now, just a bombed out shell. It's horrific what the Russians are doing. Why aren't the soldiers at least saying that they won't do this. I have heard that Belarusian soldiers and generals have been refusing to, which is part of why they haven't gone in.

Good Lord, this thread really developed into the troll wars overnight. They seem to come in waves, but always with the hyperbole that "Russia is steamrolling Ukraine" and the straw man that "naive Westerners think Ukraine can win."

Anyway: it's past lunchtime in Ukraine on the thirteenth day of hostilities, and as far as I can tell, Putin still doesn't have Kyiv. If and when he does, the occupation will not be good for Russia (litotes). As I said upthread, his miscalculation and poor planning have only turned his country into a Chinese client state. Surely not what he wanted.

R148 Genuine question, how long do you think wars last? This is only two weeks. And if we're trolling, then so are military experts and US intelligence sources.

Russia is now a Chinese vassal state…BWHAAAAA…HA! A white man on his knees forced to suck a fatass’ Asian cock! The Horror! BWHAAAA.HA! HA! The cuckolding irony of it all. Simply historic.

R149, I'm not sure what your *rhetorical* question is getting at (I suspect the straw man I referred to), but military experts and US intelligence sources have serious doubts about Russia's ability to hold on to Ukraine in the long term without severe military and economic compromises, even apart from the international sanctions. The fantasy someone posted upthread about Russia simply bombing the place to smithereens and replacing the population with Russians would itself require massive diversions of resources for years.

R148, if anyone is a troll here, it's you, idiot!

[quote]What’s the end game here? It doesn’t seem to have a logical ending.

There isn't one. The original calculation by Putler seems to have a been a quick, effective occupation done in a matter of days with comparatively minor sanctions from a largely more divided or even indifferent world. Everything's going wrong at once for him. Economy is weakening each day (they can't even open their stock exchange), the troops are ineffective, their oil and gas revenues are about to wither. It's a total mess. His proposal for Crimea/Donbas/neutrality in the constitution seems to be his escape plan but will that happen? Does he actually mean it?

Excellent argument, R152! And so concise!

R153, are you the all knowing intelligence expert! How do you know what his calculations have been? Were you in the room?

Turns out we DLers have only ourselves to blame for this invasion.

Also from r152:

[quote]Russian media reports that Zelensky is now ready to accept Russian terms of surrender.

Yeah, seems legit.

Cauldron in the east may be finished. 120,000 UA troops surrounded.

I guess those would be the same Russian media that report that Ukraine is currently governed by Nazis who are bombing their own cities in defiance of a Russian peace-keeping operation.

R159, why wouldn't they? If they know they will be Russian in a matter of days.

Interesting.

OMG!!!!

China pushing Russia's shitty propaganda line about Ukraine supposedly developing anthrax and plague spreading bacteria, I see, as a reason for Russia to take Ukraine out.

Not r153, but if you check out the Twitter accounts for Anne Applebaum, Tom Nichols, and Alexander Vindman, all policy experts in the area with decades experience, the consensus is the scenario that poster presents. Kyev in three days and quick advancement.

I think someone in the last thread said that that false claim was soon to be used. You’d have to be soft in the head to think the US was outsourcing work with Anthrax to Ukraine when we’ve got perfectly good facilities at Fort Detrick.

Putin just signed a new law, essentially either writing off or offering "repayment holidays and interest freeze" indefinitely for all debts for Russian citizens and companies.

[quote] Russian media reports that Zelensky is now ready to accept Russian terms of surrender.

“ Russian media reports that the sky is green and the grass is orange”.

R166 Link please

CNN: Biden expected to announce US ban on Russian oil today

good, a great gesture. nearly ALL of our oil is domestic, canadian or mexican, so it really won't change anything but fuck the ruskies

7% of our oil is Russian. I guess the Venezuelans are going to provide it now.

From Heather Cox Richardson last night:

[quote]In two weeks, that astonishing number of refugees has been absorbed by Poland (1,028,000), Hungary (180,000), Moldova (83,000), Slovakia (128,000), Romania (79,000), Russia (53,000), and Belarus (406), and others, according to the United Nations. The communications and plans necessary simply to move that many people, let alone feed and shelter them, show an astonishing level of cooperation.

If I were Belarusian I'd be insulted that I'm coming in dead last, even behind Russia, in the refugee sweepstakes. Why no one want to flee to beautiful Belarus?

UK, EU to announce plans to reduce reliance on Russian energy

UK refuses to drop visa requirement for Ukraine refugees

I wonder if Russia will stop oil and gas exports to Europe. That'd be costly, but maybe they can sell it elsewhere.

Moscow said on Monday it approved a list of countries and territories taking “unfriendly actions” against Russia, its companies and citizens in the wake of severe economic sanctions over the Ukraine conflict.

According to a government statement, the list includes Albania, Andorra, Australia, Great Britain, including Jersey, Anguilla, British Virgin Islands, Gibraltar, European Union member states, Iceland, Canada, Liechtenstein, Micronesia, Monaco, New Zealand, Norway, South Korea, San Marino, North Macedonia, Singapore, United States, Taiwan, Ukraine, Montenegro, Switzerland and Japan.

"What’s the end game here? It doesn’t seem to have a logical ending."

Surprise, catastrophic nuclear attacks on the U.S. from Russia and N. Korea. That was the reason for the whole invasion, a bully saying, "Hit me! Hit me!".

R155, what is your scenario then? And please try to control your emotions, you're embarrassing yourself and if you have something to say it undercuts your point.

Nickel prices double to record $100,000 a ton, trading suspended in London

The LME said in a statement that it had been monitoring the evolving situation in Russia and Ukraine and it was evident this had affected the nickel market.

Three-month nickel on the London Metal Exchange briefly jumped to a record high above $100,000 a metric ton, before paring gains.

“It is a very dangerous market right now because this is a market that is not driven by supply and demand, it is driven by fear,” Saxo Bank’s Ole Hansen said Tuesday.

[quote]I wonder if Russia will stop oil and gas exports to Europe. That'd be costly, but maybe they can sell it elsewhere.

One of their problems is their distribution. Their pipelines to ports are all built to sell to the west, not the east, for China.

Chinese companies are expected to scoop up discounted Russian oil should sanctions deter other buyers, traders said, potentially repeating a pattern seen when Iran and Venezuela were hit by U.S. curbs.

Importers in the top oil user are likely to take advantage of the opportunity to build up stockpiles on the cheap, they said. Potential Chinese buyers may use workarounds to secure cargoes as other nations avoid dealings with Russia.

Is oil the last big sanction measure that the West has? That's why some reporter on Sky just said, but is that true?

[quote] They driving Ukrainians out. They will flatten the place, killing the remaining resistance and then they re-populate

The Russians have already done this. But then by "driving out" they meant starving to death 7 million people. They then shipped in Russians.

[quote] 7% of our oil is Russian. I guess the Venezuelans are going to provide it now.

So I See Chesa Boudin is advising the Biden on energy policy now.

After the recall I guess we will see him in Washington in the administration.

[quote]Why does everyone think Putin is this mentally unbalanced, out of control loose cannon who has no plan?

[quote]Everything he does is meticulously planned out. He's three steps ahead of you- and laughing.

That forty mile traffic jam of tanks is an interesting example of meticulous planning. What a good use of manpower and hardware. Still, the barbaric bombing of civilians is proving a good enough distraction.

Everyone thinks Putin is mentally unbalanced because he's a pathological liar, and a psychopathic murderer. The catastrophe he's caused will of course last for generations. If he's laughing, well that underlines the point which needs no emphasis. Putin is the epitome of human evil.

[quote] That forty mile traffic jam of tanks

No, that’s not a traffic jam, babe. That’s an encirclement. It’s called a siege. They are preventing any other military or civilian group from using roads into the capital, preventing the provisioning of food, medical supplies or weapons. When the cities surrender, the tanks will move in. I wouldn’t worry about gasoline. Russia’s got plenty.

I realize by now that Americans are dumb enough to call a tank siege a “traffic jam.” After all, they called trump “a president.”

Both Russia and Ukraine have been undergoing demographic catastrophes since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Russia doesn't have the people to repopulate Ukraine.

From your keyboard r185 …

R188, I don't think that's the goal. They want a neutral buffer. That's it.

[quote] That forty mile traffic jam of tanks is an interesting example of meticulous planning.

It was also suggested that the Russians did not want to engage in skirmishes with the locals and this main road approach could help limit that. But what do I know about warfare?

But seriously, again, drone them - all 40 miles.

Trying to reason with Putin seems to be going as well as expected.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Hackers at work!

R193, seems fine right now.

[quote]Twitter is DOWN: Social media app crashes leaving users around the world unable to view replies to their tweets

The good news is 90% of them are satisfied just having pronounced.

Army reinforcements are headed to Ukraine.

... and the air force.

[quote]No, that’s not a traffic jam, babe. That’s an encirclement. It’s called a siege.

40 miles of vehicles without fuel, being bombarded by Ukrainian drones, is a "siege"?

So when do they start sieging, Oleg?

I think that's a troll account, r192, some (or all) of those images are old.

Ukraine supplies about 50 percent of the world’s neon gas, analysts have said, a byproduct of Russia’s steel industry that is purified in the former Soviet republic and is indispensable in chip production.

Manufacturers have already been reeling from shortages of components, late deliveries, and rising material costs, with companies that rely on chips, such as carmakers, facing production delays as a result.

Many companies, including US manufacturers Applied Materials and Intel, have said constraints would persist into 2023. Demand for raw materials is also expected to rise by more than a third in the next four years, as businesses such as the world’s biggest contract chipmaker Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company increase production, said consultancy Techcet.

“We are in great trouble. We have no rare gases to sell,” said Tsuneo Date, who runs Daito Medical Gas, a pressurized gas dealer north of Tokyo.

When Russia invaded Crimea in 2014, neon prices shot up by at least 600 percent. Companies have said they can tap into reserves, but the rush to find suppliers that are not in eastern Europe is causing shortages and price hikes, not only of neon but also other industrial gases such as xenon and krypton.

Forty percent of the global supply of krypton comes from Ukraine. The price of the gas, which is used in semiconductor production, rose from ¥200-300 ($1.73-2.59) per liter to nearly ¥1,000 ($8.64) per liter by the end of January, according to Date.

....

With gas prices rising, one Los Angeles station's prices are edging toward becoming the highest in the country.

A Shell station off of Olympic Boulevard told Newsweek that its current price for regular gas is $6.99 per gallon, with its premium gas currently at $7.29. Its midgrade gas is just barely less expensive at $7.19 per gallon.

"I don't think we've ever paid that [much for gas] ever," one resident told local news outlet KABC-TV.

[quote] There us NO fucking sinophobia here, you asshat! I am a half-Chinese, half Nordic Russian (Eurasian) American male

I am half Russian, half Chinese, half African American, half Ethiopian Jewish, half Arab, half Eastern European & half Irish/Sicilian. Don’t think you can tell me anything about my prejudices!

Buy some stuff made in Ukraine.

Colbert & Cooper

Gas in my area has jumped $.25/gal overnight! Currently at $4.12/gal. YIKES.

R187 Oleg babe, the 17 mile convoy was set there to rush into the airport as Putin planned to take it that first weekend. A lot of the vehicles have been blown out and the road is obstructed at this point so they're not going anywhere.

Buy some Ukraine bracelets.

Colbert & Cooper will next be reporting on the sun setting in the west.

Wait, some troll is seriously trying to sell the stalled convoy as an "I meant to do that" moment?

OH MY SIDES!

Buy a charity bee.

A different charity bee.

Charity mushroom boy.

I know it feels so nice to stick it to Putin from your keyboard somewhere in fuckhole Oklahoma, but the reality is Russians are levelling the whole god damn place with disregard for any human life. Stalled or not, Kyev is fucked.

Just one more charity bee.

Buy a charity octopus plush. It's cute.

Charity plushie keychains.

In every thread R214 has to be reminded that it can both be true that Ukraine is and will be suffering catastrophic losses AND that Russia is not nearly the military might that Putin desperately wanted the world to believe. It's you the simpleton who can't handle the nuances.

And I would add to R218 that "Stalled or not, Kyev is fucked" needs to be followed with, "So is Russia in the longer term, if they plan on holding on to Kyiv and the rest of the country."

Thread about Russian casualties.

The sanctions are still not working to change Putin's mind even a little.

So they should be dropped, r221?

R219, yes, you keep hoping for that. Could he, would he! Same questions being asked before he even started. And you losers still keep guessing and speculating. Don't fuck with Putin, he always delivers.

[quote]And you losers still keep guessing and speculating. Don't fuck with Putin, he always delivers

As do you, r223, as do you.

Putin needs to die

[quote]Don't fuck with Putin, he always delivers.

Will Putain be able to keep the Russian economy from its inevitable collapse if he keeps pushing this?

R223, care to walk us through the Russian plan for holding down a hostile country with almost a third the population of Russia, when the Russian military has proven so inefficient and the Russian economy so vulnerable? Are you betting on the Ukrainians resigning themselves and any insurgency just fading away? Will the Russians turn their problems with supply and training around in a jiffy? How is this supposed to work to Russia's advantage?

R223 thinks this was the end of the Iraq War:

R226, we shall wait and see. Once Trump and GOP is back in every office, the sanctions will be history! LOL. R227 as for how they are going to hold the territory? they have a good recent experience of obliterating resistance. The reason they can do it is that unlike the West, Putin does not have red lines and won't hold back. He will use any means necessary. He will gas them, nuke them and torture them. He will kill every single one of them if he has to. You just don't get it, still.

Sorry, forgot the link at r220

Sorry, forgot the link at r220

Joy Reid: World paying attention to Ukraine because it's a 'White... Christian nation'

Could this POS be any more disgusting out of touch with reality? Don't think so.

China's not happy with Putin, either.

President Volodymyr Zelensky said he is no longer pressing for NATO membership for Ukraine, a delicate issue that was one of Russia's stated reasons for invading its pro-Western neighbor.

In another apparent nod aimed at placating Moscow, Zelensky said he is open to "compromise" on the status of two breakaway pro-Russian territories that President Vladimir Putin recognized as independent just before unleashing the invasion on February 24.

That is so weird r233, because our trolls have been assuring us that China is totally on board with their good pals the Russians, and would never do anything to hurt them!

News at R234 is excellent. Very promising.

R233 a match made in hell.

China is mad because their cheap tires are getting blamed for the stuck convoy.

R234, well there we go. I was called Russian troll for sharing this news when Russian media reported it earlier today.

R235, you keep believing these fairy tales the American government feeds you. It may be what CIA director wants to share and us to believe but that's not the official position of China as of today. They are signing contracts and business deals left and right with Russia at expedited pace these days.

So he's easing up re two of Russia's demands, but what about Crimea?

R239 speciba Oleg

Speaking of cheap Chinese crap, that Amazon link with the bracelets looks like it emanates from a Chinese seller who also offers polyester lingerie, press on nails, and anything else you want. Don't give money to unvetted sources.

R241, you are welcome Mary-Anne.

A top seller today. I'm buying.

R234 is big news, but notice that almost no one here understands the significance of it.

R129 I wish you were right but I think Putin capable of many things. Driving out a population and replacing it is not without precedent in the history of Russia. Putin couldn't do it any other way. The Ukrainians hate him, now more than ever and will now for generations.

I think Zelensky is softening because he knows the cauldron in the east is sealed. He knows our media isn't covering it yet, however, so isn't addressing it, nor should he yet. But he knows the bulk of his armed forces are there, trapped.

[quote]You keep believing these fairy tales the American government feeds you. It may be what CIA director wants to share and us to believe but that's not the official position of China as of today.

Thanks. You go right on believing that China's "official position" is what the Xi Ping and the elites actually think.

R248, it's no just position but what their actions too. Not some words by CIA director who is paid to literally lie.

R247, apparently Zelensky not even in Ukraine (but in Poland) anymore and he has no control of most of those Ukrainian resistance (particularly the Nationalist ones).

R249 you'll have to lie better than that, Russki. I do hope we'll bomb the shit outta Russia. Destroy the Kremlin.

R250, you wish LOL.

Meanwhile, McDonalds finally gave up and just announced that they out of Russia. Some good news for Russian people health, I guess.

CIA and DNI both testifying in the Senate today.

Trump is not running idiot

Ukranians aren't going to go away. They begin a hostile insurgency

R254, they won't go away. They will just be exterminated while we cheerlead.

He's open to Crimea, too. Said so on ABC News.

R255 Muriel needs to block you and the Russian trolls. Go fuck yourselves.

R256, so what was the point of his posturing and the useless destruction and human suffering? What a loser.

R258 you will never deflect the blame from Putin. N.E.V.E.R.

Another experienced military man admits what was inadmissible a couple of weeks ago.

Slowly, just as Major Gen Repass of US Army said a few days ago to CNN, they are starting to realise that avoiding war and allowing Putin to succeed through mass slaughter is just to put off the day of reckoning.

We have a lunatic mass murderer on the doorstep. He needs to be hunted down and his scalp hung up on a wall in the UN.

R259, Putin can burn in hell for all I care. You, fool.

This is from CNN:

[quote]Chinese retail investors are snapping up stocks with even the slightest link to trade with Russia, as they bet on closer economic ties between the two countries following unprecedented Western sanctions on Moscow.

And this is from Bloomberg:

[quoteChina is considering buying or increasing stakes in Russian energy and commodities companies, such as gas giant Gazprom PJSC and aluminum producer United Co. Rusal International PJSC, according to people familiar with the matter.

[quote]Beijing is in talks with its state-owned firms, including China National Petroleum Corp., China Petrochemical Corp., Aluminum Corp. of China and China Minmetals Corp., on any opportunities for potential investments in Russian companies or assets, the people said. Any deal would be to bolster China’s imports as it intensifies its focus on energy and food security -- not as a show of support for Russia’s invasion in Ukraine -- the people said.

Something about this sounds less like they're hoping to increase their economic partnership with Russia than it does that they're hoping to take advantage of Russia's crashed economy.

There's a good piece in NYT today about how Russia is now a problem for China in a lot of ways.

R258, I think he believed that NATO would help. He may have thought the Western media's hype would translate into NATO involvement. He sees it's not happening, maybe.

The humanitarian corridors are being used by Russia the same way as in Syria, I bet: allow standard soldiers to drop their arms and go home along with the refugees, leaving behind the hardliners they really intend to smash (Azov Battalion, etc.). Some Azov types will also head out, to reconstitute elsewhere, but I bet they'll be driven to the Idlib-in-the-making in the western part of the country. Well, to Kiev first to fight the coming onslaught, then whoever among them who survives that will head west.

Apparently China didn't know Russia was going to launch a full-scale attack:

[quote]The war in Ukraine evidently surprised Chinese officials, at least in its scope. “They did not anticipate a full-scale invasion,” said Yun Sun, director of the China program at the Stimson Center, a think tank. That helps explain why China has edged away from Russia over the past two weeks, as my colleagues Chris Buckley and Steven Lee Myers write:

[quote]"It has softened its tone, expressing grief over civilian casualties. It has cast itself as an impartial party, calling for peace talks and for the war to stop as soon as possible."

[quote]These subtle changes are a sign that China is not fully comfortable with Putin’s mayhem. It risks solidifying the “alliance of democracies” that President Biden has called for. It risks reminding the U.S. and its allies that they have more similarities than differences.

Interesting point made about how China is now investing in Russia:

[quote]“China doesn’t need to loudly condemn Russia,” Hass said. “They can just choose to be judicious about what they trade in and invest in.” Xi is one of the few people in the world with leverage over Putin. Xi also has reason to be wary of the uncertainty and disarray that Putin’s war has created.

This comes from the link in r262 (also, sorry I screwed up the formatting in r262, formatting on DL is a harsh, unforgiving mistress).

R262 - Actually, the TIMES article is a good illustration of how nuanced geopolitics is these days. China is glad to see the West suffer instability - but not so much instability that its markets and economic plans for the next 50 years go off the rails.

China doesn't need the 22nd century's reincarnation of Adolf Hitler to succeed. China is sowing seeds in Africa, India, the UK, the UK, and the Middle East.

As the Wicked Witch of the West said, "These things must be done delicately."

Had Ukraine rolled over in three days, China might have sat back, smiling. But the truth is, all that would have done would have been to maintain a status quo: a non-NATO sphere on Russia's western flank, a happy smug Putin . . . but this isn't what China bargained for. China wants the sort of instability that produces grumbling, self-absorbed, Me-First populations as it rolls forward.

All Putin has done is unify the West as it hasn't been unified in a very long time.

Come under the heading: Be careful what you wish for.

Why do we have just one dedicated Russian troll? There are other pro-Russian trolls but they're people I've had on ignore for ages, mostly old-timer rightwingers, not like this dude who tried to tell us hours ago that Zelenskiy surrendered. Who on earth is still paying for Russian trolls to post on DL? Surely they'd be spending their money on, I dunno, Twitter or WaPo comments or something?

Ugh, god, what if it's just some chucklefuck from Dumbsville, Ohio pretending to be a Russian?

^^*the US, the UK (not the UK, the UK)

R266, don't let it drive you crazy. Just remember: DL isn't important enough for actual Russians to troll, and nothing that's said or happens on DL affects the real world in any way.

R266, Shitsville, Ohio must be your neighbourhood. Sad!

McDonalds “temporarily” closing all 850 stores in Russia.

Coca Cola and Pepsi better do their bit soon.

R270, yet they will be still paying to all 65,000 employees in Russia which sounds odd.

[quote]formatting on DL is a harsh, unforgiving mistress

I get that a lot.

I fucking like it. A lot.

"Joy Reid: World paying attention to Ukraine because it's a 'White... Christian nation'

Could this POS be any more disgusting out of touch with reality? Don't think so."

I don't think she needed to say it (it's already been said by plenty of observers), but it's partially true.

I wish all depictions of Ukraine's flag would use the very attractive "Strong Azure" instead of that pale blue so many are using. Like use the same color as on Zelensky's flag.

I don't think it matters at this point. There's bigger things to worry about.

[quote]nothing that's said or happens on DL affects the real world in any way.

It affects DL, r268. It makes it shabby, unsightly and rancid.

[quote]DL isn't important enough for actual Russians to troll,

You keep saying that, but you're trolling these threads and have been for days. No one thinks you're Russian (and I doubt anyone cares) but YOU are a troll on DL, trying to tell us nobody trolls DL.

Mr. "Nobody Bothers to Troll Datalounge" is at #2 on the linked thread, too.

R276, just block anyone who's a troll.

R276 is the Dataloungiest post ever.

I block anyone who trolls, and anyone who calls me a troll.

R278, yeah, I posted that the other day. Repeating it in another thread isn't trolling. Since you're impliedly calling me a troll, I'm blocking you. I hope you block me.

Trolling isn't the same as posting something that someone else disagrees with, by the way. Bye forever!

From 10 minutes ago.

That’s interesting about the neon gas R201! You know I think this war was always about China cornering the market on chip production. Maybe Xi promised him a cut of the action based upon having access to the Ukrainian component parts the CCP would need for Taiwan’s chip factories.

And this is where I remind all the Americans on the thread that Build Back Better is a national security necessity. Also if you are in construction buy American steel so we can create our own neon gas.

Methinks r281 doth protest too much. Here he is in the afore-mentioned thread.

[quote]So many paranoid threads about imaginary Russians on DL.

[quote]Someone's new to DL.

[quote]Newbie, no one cares about DL outside of irrelevant DL eldergays. Truly.

[quote]Get over yourself.

Repeating something that's true for the purpose of settling nerves and improving the conversation (e.g., by tamping down on "troll!" accusations) doesn't make one a troll.

Block all who call you a troll. It makes DL MUCH better.

Why do you care so much about DL, r285? Are you indeed an irrelevant DL eldergay? Truly.

Dear Oleg, "impliedly" is not a word.

Please have the new trolls go through an English grammar review with the trollfarm supervisor to avoid obvious mistakes, mkay?

kthxbye

R287 is limited and a blocked troll accuser.

R287, it's a word. It's a word people use every day.

As for the shelling of their own buildings, isn't that in the nazi controlled areas? White separatists are crazy so I wouldn't put it past them.

The radio chatter about keeping civilians hunkered down mentions strafing them about the feet to hold them. It does not tell the soldiers to shoot them dead.

[quote]Trolling isn't the same as posting something that someone else disagrees with, by the way. Bye forever!

You're too short for that gesture.

R290, yeah, I agree: they want human shields. But no one's going to believe it, even if there's subsequent evidence and testimony. To the media the Azov people don't even exist.

"As I plainly stated in my last 487 posts, there are no trolls on Datalounge!"

I never said r285 et al. was a troll because he said trolls would never bother coming to an unimportant place like DL.

I said that he claimed trolls don't troll here WHILE HE WAS TROLLING DL. His existence proves what he said is a lie.

Anyway, r285 et al., the reason you're a troll is because you do things like post links to Tucker Carlson and say things like the US and EU are "two white great powers" who only want China to obey them because they're racist. You repeated Putin's propaganda that Ukraine was jeopardizing its statehood, and you said that Ukraine is "placating" Russia now by agreeing to their demands, which you called "promising," and when no one took the bait you complained that no one on DL "understands the significance" of the so-called "placating" like you did.

On the thread about Biden banning Russian oil, you complained about sanctions against Russia, you don't want Russia to be sanctioned.

On Part II, you said people should stop watching CNN and reading NYT which are "filtered and slanted" and instead listen to Putin directly to get information. You kept saying that things were going well for Russia and American media were lying about it.

That's all I have time to look up, but basically anyone can look up your comments on this thread, Part II and "Biden Bans Russian Oil" and see for themselves what you've said and how many times you've posted.

What a convenient diversion in this thread. Just what a troll would want.

Meanwhile, Poland says "Look Vlad, we're not giving jets to Ukraine, we're giving them to the US. It's NOT OUR FAULT what the US does with them!"

It's eerie how R290 and R292 sound exactly like paid ruskie trolls. No-one seriously believes this 'denazification' shit.

This is just your reminder that the sun has now set in Ukraine on the thirteenth day of fighting, and the Russians still haven't taken Kyiv or Kharkiv. But they're on the verge of taking them, as they have been for the past ten days or so.

R297 I swear I'm not a troll but Putin seems to be hell-bent on destroying Ukraine - bombing cities, driving millions out, cutting elec/water/supplies, and making small gains each day. 2 weeks is still EARLY for a war.

Thank you R297.

3 demands:

1. Declare Ukraine neutral in the constitution; it never joins NATO or any other bloc.

2. Recognize that Crimea is part of Russia.

3. Give Luhansk and Donetsk their independence.

If Ukraine agrees, all of this stops. (Or will it?)

"On the verge" is the new Friedman unit.

R298, for the eleventyith time, WE KNOW.

R300 The last line is the million dollar question. It's my personal belief that no, they won't. Putin has shown himself to be utterly untrustworthy (not keeping to ceasefires) as well as a persistent liar and gaslighter. And even ceding those regions is appalling in itself. I believe he wants regime change to a puppet government ultimately.

ABC News: Starbucks suspending operations in Russia, will support its workers however.

I haven't accessed DL for about a month, so this is the first time I comment on this subject, but I think Putin's death about to start getting discussed and planned.

He has become a huge menace to planet earth 🌎 now.

It is unfortunate that Zelenskyy feels he might have to compromise with Putin but I can understand he might not be able to see any way out for Ukraine.

He has accomplished a hell of a lot though. The sanctions leveled against Russia are unprecedented and, assuming Western resolve holds, are not going away with the war. The sanctions imposed after Crimea were not unwound and as long as Putin holds the separatist Eastern regions I don't think these latest sanctions will be unwound either. That will essentially cripple Russia's economy for decades to come. Furthermore, Russia's foolish ventures have woken up the world to how unstable an economic partner Putin is - already we are starting to see a realignment of European economies towards a reduced reliance on Russia for anything.

It's not the stunning, underdog victory we might have hoped for (I certainly did), but it's certainly not nothing. And who knows? Russia might still have to deal with insurgencies in Luhansk and Donetsk for the next 10 years depending on the public mood. Maybe even Crimea.

The only thing he can't compromise on is Ukraine remaining neutral. That has to be a no-go. Agree to that and we'll have an exact repeat of this in 5 or 10 years.

R301 Two weeks is nowhere near 6 months, come on? It isn't even near the Friedman Unit.

I wonder if Zelenskyy is floating possible concessions to call Putin's bluff. So far Z has outsmarted P on the PR war, he clearly has some good intel operations, he knows Putin isn't at all trustworthy.

Once again, R298, few doubt that Putin can take Ukraine with all-out warfare—but the longer it takes, the more obvious the weakness of the Russian military. Two weeks is not early for a conquest that most expected to take a few days—and "war" in this case means a long occupation that'll be no victory for Russia at all.

Way to completely miss the point, R306.

Anybody speculating that Zelenskyy will start agreeing to compromises with Putin has NOT been paying attention to the last week.

R309 My point stands - 2 weeks is silly-early to judge in terms of wars/invasions.

I think that Putin is suicidal/crazy for doing this because I can't see how he gets a successful long-term occupation but he also appears unwilling to back down and will destroy Ukraine in the process.

[quote] The only thing he can't compromise on is Ukraine remaining neutral. That has to be a no-go. Agree to that and we'll have an exact repeat of this in 5 or 10 years.

R305, that's the most important among the three, I think.

I agree that they probably won't reach an agreement. I have no idea what that means, however: years of war?

I've been paying attention R310. I know Zelenskyy would rather die than compromise. But in the hypothetical scenario where he does agree to some sort of compromise, it is still a potential victory for Ukraine, provided Zelenskyy tells Putin to shove his neutrality up his ass.

But I agree R312, I think that the neutrality clause will topple the negotiations. Neutrality absolutely cannot happen. If it does, Putin WILL try again and he'll be better prepared next time.

I wager that somewhere on the planet, someone is conspiring on how to exterminate Putin from the planet. I hope they succeed.

R314 I fear the coup talk is over-optimistic

- The oligarchs are politically dependent on Putin to keep their wealth. If they deposed him their ill-gotten/stolen wealth may be targeted and taken back by the state or the next leader.

- Putin has a private guard who have got very wealthy so they have no reason to take him out either

- Putin has taken himself off to a bunker in the Urals with a bunch of oligarchs. How is anyone going to get close to him?

- History - in modern Russian history there has only been one successful coup, so they don't even really have an established tradition of it.

- I could see either.. economic conditions getting bad enough on the ground that the people uprise, or Putin becoming a Maduro-like figure who still clings on despite mass suffering of his people.

Moldova

I agree it is optimistic. But I still hope it happens. I'm far from an expert, but it seems like the population uprising after things become truly awful for the ordinary Russian citizens might be how it happens if it happens.

R317 My bet is on that he becomes a Maduro-like figure. I want to believe otherwise but probabilistically, I think that's the most likely outcome. Unless he's sick (he's 69) and that's what does him in (one hopes).

I have never read up on Maduro so I'll have to do some research. Thanks R318.

R319 ah well, the short of it is that Venezuela is another very oil-dependent and corrupt country that has been heavily sanctioned. It is led by a dictator (Maduro - no true democracy). Despite the widely-reported suffering of the Venezuelan people on the ground and the decimation of their currency, Maduro still clings on.

He is rumored to have Parkinson's and cancer though r318. Not sure the severity.

This fake news?

R323 I wish I had posted it at the time but I saw a great video showing all of the closed luxury-brand shops in Moscow.

However, I'll share this meme that is going around some Russians:

I wonder how much pressure is coming from the west in phone conversations with Zelensky to compromise and end this.

6, why pressure, they could just off him easily if they want to. No, Zelensky is a puppet and he is doing someone else's bidding.

Wot, Eunice?

[quote]"Joy Reid: World paying attention to Ukraine because it's a 'White... Christian nation'

Staying in Europe: Does Joy Reid have any idea that NATO/US went to bat for the MUSLIM Kosovars and Bosnians in the Yugoslav war?

r327:

[quote]R219, yes, you keep hoping for that. Could he, would he! Same questions being asked before he even started. And you losers still keep guessing and speculating. Don't fuck with Putin, he always delivers.

[quote]R226, we shall wait and see. Once Trump and GOP is back in every office, the sanctions will be history! LOL. R227 as for how they are going to hold the territory? they have a good recent experience of obliterating resistance. The reason they can do it is that unlike the West, Putin does not have red lines and won't hold back. He will use any means necessary. He will gas them, nuke them and torture them. He will kill every single one of them if he has to. You just don't get it, still.

EXPOSED!!!! This Nuland lady again exposing the America what it is and feeding into Russian and Chinese claims of shady American activities in Ukraine. How stupid can one be!!!!

^Exclamation mark key got stuck

[quote] It may be what CIA director wants to share and us to believe but that's not the official position of China as of today.

Why don't you brush up on the correct grammatical use of the articles a/an/& the or prepositions before glaringly giving yourself away?

You're too sloppy to be employed by your superiors. Will your firing just be a loss of employment or with greater repercussions?

r95 imagine how many sexy men died in the peak of their youth without a chance to pass on their seed. So sad.

R333, I dont give THE fuck about your articles, you fat/ass Uncle Ben.

We're talking about rice now?

Why Uncle Ben? Where did that reference come from when bringing up native Russians' seeming inability to correctly use the English articles?

You really should, r335. It would help you to be a less blatant troll.

Which one is THE fuck, r335?

R339, you.

Pithy, r340...

R337 There are DLers from all over Eastern Europe so who's the fool for assuming them all to be Russian? And paid trolls at that? You do amuse, Missy.

Bless your heart, r342. You do try.

R343, Mary-Anne from Arkansas is extra pissy tonight.

I'm almost tempted to believe that R335 is someone's consummate impersonation of a Russian trollfarm peon, but it's just too perfect.

OK, R342 -- all Eastern Europeans are misguided misanthropes ignorant of the West and bent on their own idiotic self-destruction.

R343 you just shit on yourself, ESL teacher.

"Mary-Anne from Arkansas"? "Uncle Ben"? Someone really needs to work on their feel for idiom.

R348, all these big words. Idiom, my ass.

I'm not ESL teacher, r347. Bless your heart.

R348 is an ESL TEACHER and damn proud of it!

It's like he's using a "random idiom generator." He almost sounds like a foreign exchange student in a John Hughes movie who only talks in half-understood bits of American slang.

That ESL degree was the roughest 6 weeks of my life.

R351, or a failed Broadway actor/loser, making living teaching ESL, and then coming here and shitting on the hand that feeds him

I'm surprised that the BBC didn't throw this down the memory hole.

Those who needs to stay upbeat, ignore this.

r349 in the **Russia’s Invasion of Ukraine, Part III: Give Putin the Gaddafi “Special”!** thread:

[quote]Putin is not crazy and the Russian invasion is not failing. The West’s delusions about this war – and its failure to understand the enemy – will prevent it from saving Ukraine

This is DL, r349, we know from trolls.

Again, ignore this if you need to stay upbeat. It's about the National Militia.

In honor of R327 I will henceforward refer to Zelensky as the Lord’s Puppet.

And while I really have no way of knowing, the fact that China appears to still be backing Putin makes me think that the threat of nukes is a bluff.

Rhetorical questions:

1) if you have more money than Bezos, but are forced to shelter in a bunker in the Urals, are you really rich?

2) is there a journalist on TV more single issue than Joy Reid?

But you did it, r353! Congratulations.

R357, 1,2,3....and R356 will call you a Russian troll.

Sam Seder adds context to the nationalist militias.

3) will the US be at war tomorrow morning?

Fat Pootie Dies In The Bunker -- a documentary charting a flaccid Nazi's last excruciating drug filled days. Brought to you by Cialis

R360, I don't even see him. I block anyone who accuses me of being a troll.

"Downfall", but played for laughs with a klezmer band playing "Hava Nagila" throughout?

Ukrainian Paralympics team.

r344=

Everybody needs to call r364 a troll...just to see what happens.

Coincidentally, I had R364 blocked. Probably as a troll.

A huffy one, r369.

Coca-Cola and Pepsi have announced they're shutting down their Russia operations.

Looks like the humanitarian corridors are holding and people are able to evacuate.

Mrs. Steele would have wanted it that way, r371.

dayum.. ruskies really getting the Soviet Union back aren't they. No more McDonald's, Coke, Starbucks, Louis Vuitton, Apple, IKEA, etc.

Peopling queueing in line for staples, potential nuclear plant disasters, wasting the lives of their young men in an ultimately fruitless war.

Good times!

Just like old times, ElderLez...

I wonder if there's another market outside the West with its own retail and dining chains. If it exists, maybe they'll want to serve 143 million consumers.

[quote] So he's easing up re two of Russia's demands, but what about Crimea?

This is exactly what Konstantin Kisin and maybe some a few others said. The few ones who knew and predicted there would be an invasion in the first place. They don't want the country destroyed - not people who really love it and are not just saber rattling. It was said that Ukraine doesn't really give a shit about those break off regions and that they accepted a long time ago that Crimea was not coming back. Good riddance for now.

As long as the gas reserves stay with Ukraine including the ones in the Eastern areas and near the Crimea and not interfered with, they can accept this. I have my doubts that Putin will allow Ukraine to prosper. I still think that's' his main goal - resource plundering and money.

BUT it means there need to be troops on the borders to ensure protection against Russia. And no interference with joining the EU. If the sanctions continue for long enough and sufficiently enough Russia may collapse as a power while Ukraine rises as an economic and Western democracy. Considering that Kyiv and Ukraine existed before Russia did maybe it will be a greater Ukraine in the end. If Ukraine pulls this off and essentially defeats Putin he did it without being in NATO anyway - sorta like a play brother.

The best solution for the future of Ukraine has always been some kind of compromise.

R378, well put. This should have been done from the very start, if Zelensky had any brains. But now Putin is cornered, I doubt that he will just settle on Crimea and Donbas only. He will make them pay more for this humiliation. There is just nothing to lose for Russia now.

That was a huge mistake by Ukraine, who took some stupid advice from Americans and no amount of trying to fix it now with the sanctions and the massive PR war mounted on Russia can save that country.

While Ukraine may have existed before Russia, it never really prospered. Ukrainians are corrupt as fuck, even worse than Russians. It was always dependent on Russia throughout its history and those gas reserves and mineral reach areas also only recently became part of Ukraine. They should have made it work with Russia but no they wanted to stick it to them.

Glenn Greenwald thinks the public will overwhelmingly support NATO intervention. He reasons it out.

Is it really THAT simple though. And why would corruption usurp State sovereignty. Even if Ukraine IS corrupt, I don't see how that means other countries deserve to have their way with it.

R380, I am not sure the public what's stopping NATO? LOL They have been very clear why NATO is not getting involved. We will be all fucked and annihilated, including the stupid public who gets to cast vote on this matter.

R381, did I say it is fair???? Of course it isn't. It's just reality.

The people of Western Ukraine has a clear conception of their being a distinct people, and they've despised Russia for ages. They're also extremely nationalistic.

Why not let them go their own way and have their monolingual and monocultural state? They can jettison the Russian population, leaving them to Russia.

Russia defenders like R379/R383 always sound like abusive husbands: "You're FORCING me to hit you! It's just 'reality.' I'm entitled to hit you because I'm stronger!"

Yea, R379, I don't agree with you at all. Not what I said at all. I need to brush up on my writing skills. LOL!

R385, YES, let's make the stupid analogies and woke arguments why a tiny country should annihilate itself into dust to score a point. Let's compare this to domestic abuse or trans rights, of course.

Wow, our resident Putinophile is actually belittling opposition to domestic violence as "woke." I assume R387 is the same poster who belittles democracy in R382.

Can we just annihilate you, R387?

Well, we can make a fight of it or wait till Putin, bloated by being left to eat Ukraine, casts his eye next on Poland, or Latvia, or Lithuania - just sticks his toe into a NATO country to see what we'll do.

If avoiding annihilation is the goal, why have NATO at all? I mean, if you aren't willing to try it on because of Ukraine, why try it on with Lithuania? Are NATO troops and American taxes really worth Lithuania? Poland? Who gives a fuck about Poland, anyway?

The point is, Vlad is trying to find out just how much he can get away with. Saying, well, we'll risk annihilation for Latvia but not Ukraine is somewhat silly, ins't it?

What Putin is wreaking in Ukraine is going to haunt Russia and Russian history. Fuck, at least Pol Pot died in jail. At least they hanged Eichmann.

You don't seem to realise what you're dealing with here. It's fight now, or fight later.

It is, r388. He's very prolific, I'll give him that. His syntax is...well...creative.

LOL, there is the American response to Poland. No planes for you, Ukraine.

R390, stop, stop, just sop. Ukraine is not in NATO, it is not in EU. That's the whole basis for this crisis. Enough!!!!

R385, it's the realist school of geopolitics. It's not saying how things should be. Rather, it's saying what's possible given differences in power, etc. They're not saying that what they think will happen is good. They're just describing what's happened and prognosticating what will happen.

It's a problem in these threads: some posters read a tone or bias in realist posts where one doesn't exist, because they themselves are so passionate in their defense of whatever entity they think the realists are attacking. Post something from NPR that says "Russia is advancing quickly in the south" and they think that merely posting such a thing is some kind of partisan statement.

I suspect we have quite a few here who have advanced degrees (poli sci, etc.) and thus the lease objective analytical frameworks of those fields, and/or deeper knowledge about the region. These commenters are mostly just observing, analysing, and predicting,

That said, we clearly also have the CNN/MSNBC/BBC/NYT watchers and readers who are new to Ukraine's politics, who are newly deeply emotionally involved. I suspect they also view what's happening largely within a WWII appeasement rubric because that's what much of the media are saying, and it resonates with what they know about WWII.

thus the *largely objective

R379 - Vlad has everything to lose. He's turned Russia into a global pariah, and the massacres in Ukraine will go into the books along with the Holocaust, Campuchea, Bosnia, Rwanda . . .

He's already got the Crimea. Donbas - let them all go settle in Russia if they're so keen.

He's a mass murderer, trailing in Stalin's footsteps.

You make deals with the Devil, he comes back for more.

They thought the same thing in 1939. "Peace with Honour" at Munich.

And then Adolf went home in disgust, throwing up his hands and saying, "What the fuck do I have to do to make these people fight?!"

So he invaded Poland.

And then they knew. You give Vlad the Crimea and Donbas, and in five years he'll be back for the rest, like the crocodile that kept following Captain Hook around, licking its chops for the rest of him.

Too many deals with too many men like this in the rearview mirror.

Zelensky is right to lay it all on the line and force Putin to nail his blood-soaked flag to the mast. There won't be a respectable government in the world willing to deal with him again.

No more burnt offerings.

For Pete's sake, don't try to reason with R390; he's just the troll who was warmongering all over here the other day, trying to stir up bellicose spirits by pretending to be in anguish about the plight of Ukraine—to no avail, since we saw him for the troll he is. He's gone back to that futile tactic.

Now he'll respond to me with more faux anguish, and I'll block him.

This war is great for the USA. The longer this goes on, the weaker Russia is. Great for USA and other powers.

R398, exactly. Poor Ukraine, used as a pawn.

Politico is reporting that same R392. I don't think the deal is dead though, they're just somehow "surprised". Although how that's possible is beggar's belief considering Poland and the EU have been talking about it for a while.

Hopefully the Pentagon pulls up its big boy pants and approves the move.

This war is good for no one but the CCP, and even then it is iffy.

The Community College of Pittsburgh, ElderLez? Why, did they invest in anti-tank missiles?

Not even the CCP R401. Russia is speculated to be ready to default on their sovereign debt, of which China owns a fair amount (though I can't seem to find out exactly how much).

R403, it won't apply to China.

The ruble is dead.

R405. It had a hot ass but it couldn't live forever.

Pro-tip to young Russians fleeing - convert your rubles to fur coats. Wear them a few times in your new country and then sell them.

R406, hot ass? it didn't.

R394, there is an interesting piece on this subject in this week's The New Statesman.

R409, I'll read it. Thanks.

Of those compromise terms Putin wants Ukraine to agree to, the one about enshrining neutrality in the constitution is the one I'd be most strongly opposed to, were I the president. That's tantamount to declaring Ukraine to be Russia's vassal. A constitution is a country's foundation. What right does some other country have to dictate what goes into it? No way. Absolutely no way, if I were Zelenskyy.

r411, not only neutral but also completely demilitarised. I guess the trade off would be Russia will defend it?

Either way Ukraine will need somehow defend itself and rely either on NATO or Russia. So he is forcing them to make the obvious choice, which also answers his question about the perceived threat Ukraine poses by choosing NATO? They are in a tough spot. Hence, they should agree. There are many neutral states in Europe. One of them is right on Russia's border, Finland. So it's not like Putin is setting some kind of outrageous precedent.

[Quote] What right does some other country have to dictate what goes into it?

It's not about rights. It's about power.

After WW2, America wrote Japan's entire constitution because it wanted to effect its priorities in a reconstructed Japan.

I wonder if behind the scenes they're negotiating a renege deal. Ukraine appears to concede, the sanctions are left in place, Putin falls and then Ukraine amends the constitution again while Russia is in relative political disorder?

I tried R409 but 1.) the writing style is difficult to parse, no sentence should run on for four lines; 2.) the thinking is somewhat sophistic (in my opinion)

My read was that it was saying that spheres of influence exist and that it's natural for great powers to exercise their power rather than conforming to international rules and norms. Both seem to put us right back into the Cold War from 50 years ago if you ask me.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting though. It honestly seemed like a lot of words to essentially say nothing at all.

Well this seems ominous…I know Russia’s economy is tiny but any country about to default on its debt makes me nervous. And this combined with red-hot inflation..not good.

Finland is not demilitarized R412. Nor is it barred from joining NATO - it is considering doing so right now.

Russia's demands for neutrality are unreasonable and demilitarization is outright ludicrous. As R411 points out either will be essentially making Ukraine into a vassal state of Russia, particularly if they have to rely on Russia for military protection.

And protection from whom? Only Russia seems keen on invading Ukraine.

R415, it's badly written and a very superficial take on Mearsheimer and the realist approach, which the author glibly labels "glib."

I think by demilitarization he means a small defense force is ok. That's usually what it means in this context.

I'm R411. It's the constitutional part that I was addressing, R412 and others. I know there are other neutral states. R413, I would never acknowledge that power. It's not power unless it can be exerted, and only a country that's been soundly defeated with its back to the wall--yes, like Japan post-WWII--has to accept terms such as a constitution dictated by the conqueror. Ukraine and Russia are not in that situation.

R417, great powers have vassal states. America has a collection of them spread around the world. Having a vassal also act as a buffer is common throughout history.

r417, demilitarisation is a new demand, which will keep piling on from Moscow the longer this drags. Finland may not be barred but just today both Sweden and Finland officially stated that they are not going to do it as that will threaten their security not enhance it. They are smart. Ukraine on the other hand has been actively pursuing this path, with the American assistance and despite Russia's persistent requests, for a decade now. Those efforts were publicly exposed.

Nobody is saying that Russia has rights to demand this but they are are doing it because they can and Ukraine wasn't playing this game smart for years. That's why we are here. Now what's the solution?

A lot of the commentary treats NATO and Russia as polar great powers, each deserving of a "sphere of influence," as if this were still the cold war. Only its nuclear weapons give Russia anything like this claim. Russia isn't a great power; even before their expansionist war brought the sanctions down on them, they had a very modest economy (with much of their wealth parked outside the country), and the war has shown up their military as hidebound and unready, unfit for anything bigger than bombing South Ossetia or Aleppo.

[quote] just today both Sweden and Finland officially stated that they are not going to do it

Link to their deciding not to join NATO? As far as I can tell it's being debated in Sweden, the government being opposed, but with recent opinion polls in support; and still under discussion in Finland?

You can’t just give in to a terrorist. Shoot him in the head and then have McGyver ready to dismantle all those nuclear missiles. Easy peas. I am sweaty and angry.

R423, Soviet Union did not even have economy and still was a power with sphere of influence, exactly because of nuclear arsenal. And back then the West wasn't so much dependent on Russia economically either. They are bombing Ukraine (which is bigger than places you mentioned) are getting away with it. And will get away with it. Mark these words.

This war is simply driven by the nationalism and national security concerns. Economy will always take a second seat for countries like Russia and China. We can try but whatever the outcome of economic war we are waging won't be seen soon. And by then, this situation will either escalate and explode spilling out of Russia/Ukraine or this whole thing will be already forgotten.

I don’t think people will forget. This is the beginning of the end for Russia.

There was a Daily Mail article posted on DL a few years ago. A group of Russian men on a snowcat killed a (possibly polar) bear who wasn't bothering them by ramming the snowcat into her repeatedly at high speed, and then running her over.

Whenever I think about Russia, that pops into my mind. I hope they got prison.

Tucker this evening: You are about to get a lot poorer

I detest his smug ugly face and demeanor. Manipulating old people and soulless.

Serbs volunteering — for Russia.

World War Z! Yikes

I hope the West helps rebuild Ukraine so infrastructure, housing, etc. is better than before. Everything can be modernized. The EU will probably take the lead.

A Ukrainian homage to their drones.

Ukraine has biological research facilities supposedly.

NBC News special just posted.

Recall Pussy Riot from Russia?

One (formerly imprisoned) member weighs in:

I have such a horrible sense of dread on this. No one seems to know the end game. Putin will not peacefully bow out.

Right R438. No one knows the timeline, what happens, how it escalates, what countries get tied up in it. Even relatively isolated America who isn't involved on the ground could be fucked - as we've already seen with soaring prices. No that's not the same kind of fucked as being killed or having your home destroyed or having to flee, not even close. But still, the reverberations are wide.

[quote]I have such a horrible sense of dread on this. No one seems to know the end game. Putin will not peacefully bow out.

This. No one even knows how to predict the war's conclusion. Prominent scholars who have been Sovietologists or have studied modern Russia for decades have little idea. Tom Nichols among them. He's simply said that despite his four decades of work in the field, he doesn't know how it will unfold. There's simply no comparison point in history. This is uncharted.

R440, probably the same outcome as Crimea.

I have no words....😢

It really does seem like Russia isn't touching much of anything west of the Dnieper. Maybe Russia will capture the entire coast but leave the rest of the western part alone. If they split the country along the Dnieper, how do they split Kiev?

This situation is UNPRECEDENTED. And that word must be used at least 10,000 times a day by teleprompter readers around the globe.

Do you think they need a teleprompter to tell them that, fool?

Republican Candidate in Michigan SUPPORTS Putins invasion..And said in an interview he told his teen daughters "'If rape is inevitable, you should just lie back and enjoy it.'....He is also saying Trump won. He is favored to win..

R445 you missed the entire point.

It was a pointless bitchery comment about the extreme over-use of the word "unprecedented" in the media by the news drones (oops I mean reporters), fool @R445.

Which other synonyms would you rather us and reporters use for this situation that would suit your prissy, cunty aims, r448?

Please provide your personal Roget's with your acceptable list.

The US has charged a dual national with being an unregistered agent. Looks like we're going to get more of the spy stuff. Maria Butina is wearing Z T-shirts and promoting the war now.

Not interested, R449. Find someone else to pick a fight with.

CIA Director William Burns told the U.S. House Intelligence Committee on Tuesday: “I think Putin is angry and frustrated right now. He’s likely to double down and try to grind down the Ukrainian military with no regard for civilian casualties.” Putin has “been stewing in a combustible combination of grievance and ambition for many years,” Burns said, “in which his own circle of advisers is narrower and narrower.” U.S. Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines agreed Putin “is unlikely to be deterred … and instead may escalate — essentially doubling down.” Putin also “probably still remains confident that Russia can militarily defeat Ukraine,” the U.S. intelligence community believes.

Interesting thread on that sniper.

3.5km? Jeez.

Two Russian generals down, how many more to come?

In May 2017, an unnamed Joint Task Force 2 Canadian sniper was said to have eliminated an ISIS combatant just outside of Mosul, Iraq, at a distance of 3,540 meters, or roughly 2.2 miles. Details about the shot are scarce, but it’s known that a Canadian operator used a McMillan Tac-50 to engage an ISIS target preparing to take part in an ambush on Iraqi police. The shot was reportedly captured on video and was later confirmed by Canadian Armed Forces.

That bullet was probably in the air for a little more than 10 seconds.

Ukraine needs 10,000 more expert snipers to pick off every despicable Russie.

[quote]Not interested, [R449]. Find someone else to pick a fight with.

Said the person who fired the first salvo.

R397 Well, fuck me if it isn't the ghost of Neville Chamberlain . . .

I am really starting to think it is exactly that, r345. The idioms are just too "accidentally" humorous.

^signed, heartless R390

The U.S. said no to those fighter jets from Poland, but we ARE sending Patriot missile batteries Poland, apparently with the concern that Russia will be targeting Poland in the future.

Have you ever been on a train and a fight starts and you are pretty sure there’s a pickpocket in the vicinity? That’s kind of how I’m feeling on this thread.

The MIG fighters could have helped picking off the Russian tanks, but alas, the US is cowering to Putin.

The lyrics at R434, as far as I can make them out, are great—rhyming bayraktar with "kommentar" and "tsar" (the English subtitles leave a little to be desired).

Bush and Poland came to an agreement they would host a missile defense site. Naturally Obama-Biden wimped out and cancelled the deal. So once again here we rushing to play play catch up.

R379, Zelensky did try to get a peace in the separatist zones from the time he was first elected. There was even briefly a ceasefire in 2019. But the hardcore nationalists in Ukraine called him a Russian puppet or Russian sympathizer for considering a compromise there, and the Russian separatist side, which is also far right paramilitary, was equally extremist or more so, committing war crimes and not wanting a compromise. Over 13,000 people died in the war between the Russian separatists and the Ukrainian nationalists before the invasion happened.

R463 Exactly!!

R467, Zelensky is most definitely a puppet, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Poor Ukrainian people are facing extinction because they decided to elect a comedy actor as their leader.

R469 So, your opinion of Vichy France...? And don't pretend that the Russians wouldn't have fought back as well if they'd been the ones who were attacked.

Nothing like some warmed over Russian propaganda in the morning, R469. Russia is losing the PR war and nobody buys their bullshit. I don't know why you bother.

I hope Russia enjoys their new Venezuelan economic collapse.

... As is certainly well understood in Kosovo and the Balkans, in 1999 under the leadership of US President Bill Clinton and Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, NATO intervened with an intensive bombing campaign in the brutal internecine war between Serbia and its breakaway province of Kosovo, in which Serbia engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Albanian majority, creating a humanitarian crisis. After 78 days, NATO prevailed and the war ended in June 1999.

Russia strongly opposed NATO’s intervention and remains Serbia’s staunch ally to this day. NATO established a peacekeeping force, KFOR, which also continues to this day. These events planted the seeds for the ‘Kosovo precedent’, which would be utilised by Putin in dramatic fashion in the years to come.

In February 2008, Kosovo unilaterally declared its independence from Serbia with the support of the US, the EU and other countries. This watershed event infuriated Putin, and he vowed that it created a precedent that would circle back to harm the West. And it did so in short order...

I hope the Lord’s Puppet survived another night.

Dontcha know, R472, that Putin's long game is going exactly according to plan? He factored this whole economic collapse into his plans. Also the stalled tanks and crashed jets and helicopters. He's going to unleash destruction and mayhem on Ukraine and the ensuing occupation will only make Russia stronger! So our resident informants have been telling us for the last two weeks.

[quote}I hope Russia enjoys their new Venezuelan economic collapse.

Does this mean I get a warm-water port?

... Olga Pindyuk [an economist at the Vienna Institute of International Economic Studies] believes that the West should already be making provision for Ukraine’s reconstruction.

“Ukraine will have to receive a lot of financial assistance. The EU must have this in mind now,” she said, adding that any reconstruction must promote technology.

Ukraine already had big plans to boost its IT sector considerably. “We want to transform Ukraine into a country of start-ups,” Zelensky said in February, before the new Russian invasion. “We expect the technology share of GDP to grow from four to 10 per cent by 2025, up to 16.5 billion US dollars, making us the largest tech hub in Europe.”

When it emerges from the war, the IT sector is likely to be more important than ever...

supposedly about 60% of the sighted/verified Russian vehicles the Ukrainians have been able to claim were either abandoned or captured which suggests that they broke down or were not working. It's not that the vehicles were terrible quality or very old - it's because they weren't maintained well.

It seems this conflict has unveiled the poor state of Russia's fighting army to the whole world.

Russian billionaires quietly list Plaza spread for $50M

Russian billionaire lists UES mansion for $41M as bank faces sanctions

[quote] Russia strongly opposed NATO’s intervention and remains Serbia’s staunch ally to this day.

Russian paratroops were on the ground as "peacekeepers: just like the NATO troops. Clinton buddy Wesley Clark was our commander on the scene, The Russians began a fast move to capture Pristina airport which Clark felt belonged to him. so he ordered his troops to push in and confront the Russians at gunpoint. The British commander and Clark's deputy refused this order effectively mutinying. Soon after Ckark was removed from his post and forced to retire.

[quote](the English subtitles leave a little to be desired).

Here's another with better subtitles.

R479, there is more, a criminal probe has been launched by Attorney General office in Russia to investigate how the conscripts ended up in Ukraine. Apparently, they were sent by mistake or negligence and most of the dead Russian soldiers are conscripts who weren't even aware they are in Ukraine. LOL.

Subsequently, they spent past two weeks taking them out of Ukraine and replacing with the proper army, which LOL Hot mess.

Said that, they are supposedly back on track now.

Ukrainians in race to save cultural heritage

Many believe destruction of cultural assets is part of Kremlin strategy to ‘erase’ Ukraine as independent sovereign state

[quote]Russian billionaires quietly list Plaza spread for $50M

[quote]Russian billionaire lists UES mansion for $41M as bank faces sanctions

Time for a few "Tasteless Enemies" threads!

ironically, one of our best bets is Russian mothers complaining about their dead sons; it has been a problem for Russia in the past.

The whole situation in Ukraine is completely unnecessary. Putin just wanted Ukraine to remain neutral and not join NATO which would give the USA and its ulterior interests access to the Russian border. The USA has a hard-on for Ukraine to join NATO to allow the West more strategic access and leverage against Russia. The US government has no place expanding its interests on that continent. Russia was leaving Ukraine alone, but just expected it to be a buffer state between Russia and the NATO countries. Russia's not taking over Ukraine; they're just wrecking it now so that NATO can't use it.

The Russians 'liberated' a children's hospital by bombing it to a shell.

R488 How many times? Ukraine literally couldn't join NATO because they had disputed territory. The Russians could just have left things at Crimea or even Donbass, and Ukraine wouldn't have been able to join Nato.

This. Was. Never. About. Nato.

All Russian oligarch/billionaire properties should be confiscated, and the profits used to help rebuild Ukraine.

You have to excuse R488. He's trying to hard to earn his .0009 ruble for the day.

Ukraine had a hard-on for joining NATO and threatened to develop nuclear weapons (something Zelensky mentioned when Harris was last in Europe a few weeks ago) if NATO membership looked unlikely.

[quote]Said that, they are supposedly back on track now.

Nice try, R484. You do a decent job at pretending to mock the Russian military with your scattered "LOLs," but your incompetent grasp of English usage, particularly in the money line, gives you away.

I think it's funny that we've seemingly collectively decided that, in order to separate the from our everyday Boris trolls, we will refer to the Ukraine specific trolls as Oleg!

Waves to Oleg at R488.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

I'm old enough to remember when some DLers doubted there were any pro-Russian trolls posting here. You'd think by now their English would have improved, but it's actually gotten worse.

I hope the winds are blowing east from Chernobyl.

One thing about this entire situation is assured. Twenty or thirty years from now, Ukrainians will probably be shooting us with our own tanks and guns. Seems to be how it goes when we help arm a nation to fight Russia.

R469, if both sides with equal fervor call you a puppet, both sides which hate each other because they’ve been literally killing each other for years now and only listen to one extreme side, doesn’t that suggest that maybe you are not in fact a puppet, but somebody standing in the middle witnessing extremism? The whole Euromaiden thing probably wouldn’t have happened if not for the worldwide recession in 2008. Crimea is wealthy and full of resources- it’s probably only feels worth dying for if you’re financially desperate. In the US too, before people started defaulting on loans, causing the recession, minimum wage had stagnated for years. If it hadn’t, would people have defaulted on loans? The easiest way to end the conflict would be to ease people’s poverty.

Hunger could be coming to developing nations because of wheat costs (Ukraine provides a LOT of it).

The gluten intolerant will thrive, r501.

I think the Chernobyl "concerns" are another talking point, under the talking point (e.g. Kira Rudick making the rounds on cable news) that "NATO must intervene, because nuclear fallout from a meltdown doesn't care about whether a state is a NATO member; Russia could cause a nuclear meltdown, and the fallout could easily spread all over Europe."

Not saying it's not true, but the IAEA has dismissed all of these "incidents" after checking for nuclear leaks. All three times.

America's arable land will come in handy, profitably so, in any kind of wheat crisis.

[quote]one of our best bets is Russian mothers complaining about their dead sons; it has been a problem for Russia in the past.

Psychopathic liar Putin will assert they were genocided by the Nazi Zelensky, which is why Ukraine needs to be obliterated. Then on to the next item of business, perhaps another nuclear threat.

R505 See, this is one area they don't seem able to gaslight people on. The Russian mothers will not have it otherwise. It is extraordinary already that Putin has been forced to backtrack on his lie that no conscripts were sent to the Ukraine war. The mothers must be creating an almighty stink for them to do that.

The latest Chernobyl scare is yet another false alarm.

In a statement, the IAEA said 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝒄𝒖𝒕 𝒑𝒐𝒘𝒆𝒓 𝒍𝒊𝒏𝒆 “𝒅𝒐𝒆𝒔 𝒏𝒐𝒕 𝒑𝒓𝒐𝒗𝒊𝒅𝒆 𝒑𝒐𝒘𝒆𝒓 𝒕𝒐 𝒔𝒂𝒇𝒆𝒕𝒚-𝒓𝒆𝒍𝒂𝒕𝒆𝒅 𝒆𝒒𝒖𝒊𝒑𝒎𝒆𝒏𝒕,” and added: “Due to time elapsed since the 1986 Chornobyl accident, the heat load of the spent fuel storage pool and the volume of cooling water contained in the pool is sufficient to maintain effective heat removal without the need for electrical supply.”

Wow, the "Russia wanted to leave Ukraine alone but AMERICA forced them to invade!" troll has arrived. Curious.

Cleopatra would be very surprised to hear that Egypt needs Russia for wheat imports. In ancient times Egypt fed the entire Mediterranean.

And guess who has admitted that the US was financing laboratories in Ukraine, for the development of biological weapons? Psychopath Victoria Nuland, who claims that Russia wants to use the bio weapons that the US was developing in Ukraine to harm Russia, to attack NATO! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I guess that Russians are not allowed to turn the tables on anyone? 🤣🤣🤣

So hear this: Russians are tying to blame America for trying to attack them with biological weapons, by using the biological weapons that the US wanted to use to attack them against America's allies - because that's the Russian way! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

R511 OK Sergei. Are you sad that McDonald's has closed? Did you queue around the block with your fellow Ruskies?

It's like a return to the Soviet Union with all of these companies leaving but still nothing like what the Ukrainians are going through.

What to do when your flimsy arguments cannot refute the evidence presented? Follow R512's and accuse everyone of being Russian assets! Because blatant xenophobia invalidates other people's arguments... Even former Colonel Douglas McGregor is criticizing the US and its behaviour int he entire Russia-Ukraine conflict.

R514 Ah, the posting of shitty sensationalist Youtube videos by orgs/people I've never heard of. You make it a bit too easy to spot you, dear Vlad.

They just don't get DL, r515.

Blah, blah, blah... If Rachel Maddow doesn't bark it out, it's not true! I'm R515 and blindly believe anything I'm said, because I need someone to hate and lack critical thinking skills.

Douglas McGregor is a Trump stooge. That's all you need to know about him.

R517, if you are going to be an able Russian propagandist, better brush up on your English.

"I'm said?"

Ooooh, I made a mistake while making changes to my post and that exposes me as a deranged Russian spy!!! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

You still cannot refute any of my arguments, tovarich! You better run to watch MSNBC and pray for Killary to bring about a nuclear holocaust, because that's the only way in which you'll be able to escape the truth @R519.

Tulsi again.

Mar 9, 2022 • Tulsi Gabbard tells Laura Ingraham that this war is not in the best interests of the American people or the world.

damn, this troll *definitely* doesn't understand DL. He has not been briefed well before he logged on for his shift or he's not smart enough to get the place.

R397 - Hey, Neville: the Russians bombed a maternity hospital today - a direct hit. There are infants and children buried in the rubble.

Take your fucking moral cowardice and your determination to protect Putin's right to park his increasingly likely to be legendary slaughter in Europe.

What didn't you learn from Dachau, Darfur, Bosnia, Rwanda, Cambodia, et al.?

You cocksucking Putin apologist.

R511, there are labs all over the world that study biohazards; that doesn’t mean that they intend to make bio weapons. What if your country doesn’t want its own nuclear bombs, but does want to invest in a defense system to prevent a nuclear attack? It’s the same thing with studying biohazards. It is true that some scientists think the US crossed a line by saying that non-lethal biohazards were not prohibited. But plague and anthrax are lethal - even if they were being studied from a defense standpoint no one approved their use as weapons. Ukraine is aware of Russia’s own bio weapons history.

You have no arguments, R520. Just poor English skills, emojis and LOLs.

[quote] There are infants and children buried in the rubble.

Just a small correction re R523. There are no infants or children in the rubble. None were killed. However, women including pregnant women were injured. Just on Sky News.

Don't take this as a partisan comment. Just correcting a mistake. See R394.

R488 - If you believe Putin was ONLY interested in a "neutral" state on its western border, I have a large, elegant, but desperately in need of repair palatial residence in the heart of London going cheap. You can look right up the Mall from the, er, front balcony.

Putin wants the Soviet empire back. Ukraine is now a democratic country. It's tantamount to the US telling Canada or Mexico what alliances they can make because they're right on the American borders.

"Neutral" in fact means "neutered". A country without a destiny, with a puppet government installed that dispenses with all freedoms of speech, dissension, a completely controlled media . . .

What neutral actually means in Vlad's dictionary, is enslaved.

You and the rest of the whingers are kidding yourselves.

That ONLY means EVERYTHING to the people who actually have to live under it.

Vlad's troops just bombed a maternity hospital. Wait till the world sees the tiny bodies being brought out.

You still won't accept who you're dealing with here.

This is one of those cases where compromise equals failure.

Letting Putin succeed in taking Ukraine and subjugating it on Europe's doorstep will protect no one over the longer term.

You know that old saying, "They came for the Jews and I said nothing? They came for the blacks, and I said nothing. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me."

You're looking at it.

Just wait for the optics of that maternity hospital. Just wait.

How many French hospitals, schools, and churches did the RAF and US Army Air Force blast? Goode guys or bad guys you get collateral damage.

So now the bewildered teenage conscripts were just a clerical error, and no problem really? LOL!!!!!OK!!!!LOL!!!!

Zelenskyy is an absolute hero but his braying for a NATO No-Fly zone is not a good look for him. He must know that if NATO did that World War III would officially commence and a nuclear confrontation would be extremely possible.

What's everyone doing to address the humanitarian situation on the ground?

It's an excellent "look." !!!!!!!

R528 What does that have to do with what's happening right now, not to mention that the Allies were trying to win a war against an aggressor? No-one has bombed Russia. Only Russia is bombing Ukraine, and Russia is the clear aggressor here. Typical whataboutism from Russian trolls.

R530, I can't blame him. I wake up every morning wondering if he is still alive.

R481, what a Dump!

R528, you’re a boob, read up on a the Geneva conventions, dumbass

How on earth do you shoot someone from 3.5 kms? What if the target moved? Seems like these long-distance snipers must have a lot of luck on their side.

Re R523, now hearing that Zelensky claims there are children in the rubble of Mariupol's maternity hospital. Sky News.

R537, they are probably using an automatic or semi-automatic weapon, i.e., they are firing multiple bullets at the target.

I'm sure the snipers are trained, but if they're just spraying bullets, then these long kill shots are as much luck as skill, R539.

There is clearly propaganda coming from both sides. This is especially evident in the statement about Chernobyl.

I get it, from Zelensky’s perspective. He is seeing his Nation attacked by his bigger neighbor, and he is doing and saying everything he can to get help. Who can blame him?

You can feel bad for Ukraine, you can send money, you can morally support them, but that doesn't mean you don't need to be critical when reading news from their sources. They have an agenda too. For a very good reason, mind you, but it is an agenda none the less.

$14 billion in aid from the US. The House is about to vote to approve it. ABC News on YouTube right now.

[quote]For a very good reason, mind you, but it is an agenda none the less.

Adding the *but* negates what comes before it, r541.

R542, I'm sure that a significant amount of that "aid" will be invested in financing the ISIS and All-Nussra associated White Helmets from Syria. We ought to remember that Hillary Clinton arranged $10 billion in weapons to be sold to Saudi Arabia, which not-so-mysteriously ended up in the hands of the jihadists in Syria.

Colonel Douglas McGregor is right: the US wants to turn Ukraine into another Afghanistan.

Gonzalo Lira is an independent journalist in Kiev. He commented on another channel that the situation looked bad for Ukraine militarily and it looks unlikely that Ukraine will win; he said nothing derogatory about Ukraine.

Government officials and/or nationalist goons came to his home looking for him. He went underground, and his family is now hidden elsewhere.

Sure, Jan.

Wait, what exactly are you saying Zelenskiy is lying about, with regard to Chernobyl?

But, but, but... Only Russians do that, R545!

Of course, the US and UK are slowly torturing Julian Assange to death but... Well, he hacked! He is arrogant! Lenin Moreno said that he smeared feces on the Ecuadorian embassy's walls after Wikileaks exposed him as a corrupt crook!

In short, stop spreading misinformation: if what you're saying were true, Joe Biden would have condemned it, right? After all, he is the best president since Roosevelt! 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

Ok!!!!LOL!!!!

My understanding of the bothsiders is they are saying that Chernobyl is fine without fresh cold water. It sends its love.

Did I get that right?

IAEA says it's fine.

I almost feel sorry for the Putin troll on the DataLounge beat, exhaustively posting dubious news reports and racing to keep up with our English phraseology. Does he ever take a break and go over to "Taron Egerton Says He Is Completely Fine" or "Madonna with Her Tits and Ass Out," or would his supervisors dock his beet rations?

A new analysis from Russell Brand

I know he was seen over on the Why Doesn't Petula Clark Move Her Feet? thread. He had nothing of value to add there, either.

[quote] “Ukraine will have to receive a lot of financial assistance. The EU must have this in mind now,” she said, adding that any reconstruction must promote technology.

R477 flooding Russia with massive amounts of US development and investment $$$ in the ‘90s, post-USSR, was what gave rise to the Russian kleptocracy.

Someone will have to keep a sharp eye on any assistance that goes to Ukraine, post-invasion. And it better not be the boys at Harvard.

[quote]A new analysis from Russell Brand

I'm sure the Soviets were saying the same thing about Hungarians in 1956 and Czechs in 1968.

[quote]And it better not be the boys at Harvard.

Just the cute ones.

R548, both Republicans and Democrats in Congress have been concerned about the Azov Battalion in the past, and founded joint bills to oppose them, jointly backed by members of both parties. On the other side, the Russian Sparta separatists, also with neo-Nazi views, were committing war crimes. Zelensky was a moderate, someone who tried to get both sides to moderate, and he couldn’t, because the extremists were the ones with guns, the ones wanting to use their guns to get their way no matter what, rioting and trashing government offices to get their way. Putin had absolutely no business trying to violently remove a moderate peacekeeper from office. And no one in Ukraine will accept his having a say in their government now, even if they would have in the past for shared history’s sake.

R548, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[quote]Maria Butina is wearing Z T-shirts and promoting the war now.

Rolling Stone: Butina claims Ukrainians are bombing themselves

[quote] Putin had absolutely no business trying to violently remove a moderate peacekeeper from office.

Irony.

What's going on war-wise? Who's making advances?

Here's the brilliant article that Russell brand discusses in the video at R553.

[quote]As a result of this coverage, the interventionist mentality has trickled down to the public. One poll found that, should Russia actually invade Ukraine, 50% of Americans support embroiling the US in yet another quagmire, up from just 30% in 2014. Biden, however, has said that no US troops will be sent to Ukraine. Instead, the US and EU have threatened sanctions or support for a rebel insurgency should Russia invade.

[quote]The past few weeks have seen several failed talks between the US and Russians, as the US refuses to alter its plans for Ukraine. The US Congress is rushing a “lethal aid” package to send more weapons to the troubled border. Perhaps if the public were better informed, there would be more domestic pressure on Biden to end the brinkmanship and seek a genuine solution to the problem.

Is somebody seriously bring Russell Brand in this discussion? I always look to illiterate, unhinged Brits to understand complex geopolitical issues.

Anya Parampil from The Grayzone interviews political analyst Mark Sleboda.

[quote]Mark Sleboda offers a critical assessment of Russia’s military maneuvers in the early days of the conflict in Ukraine and evaluates the possibility of a Syria-style dirty war erupting in the country. Sleboda also explains how the war has ushered in a “great decoupling” between Russia and the West and why he believes it could represent the “end of the unipolar world.”

The photos coming out of that maternity hospital in Mariupol are quite shocking. Don Lemon will have to bring out the smelling salts on CNN tonight.

R565, nice to know there are people here who don't just regurgitate CNN/MSNBC talking points.

The humanitarian corridors seem to be allowing the escape of UA soldiers who want to desert from the various cities, leaving the hardliners. After that comes the serious hammering. As in Syria.

The eastern cauldron's pretty much finished. I'm wondering if they seize Kiev before Odessa. Both will take a while.

I trust the assessment of the IAEA of Chernobyl over either the Russian or Ukrainian governments. If they say it's fine, it's fine.

Zelensky is upping the rhetoric so other countries step in. Who can blame him? That's what he is supposed to do, and that's what any of us would do were we in his shoes.

He knows that he is not going to get a no-fly zone, but if he keeps pushing for such a grand gesture from NATO, he might be able to get planes as a "we can't do that, but here's something" sort of make good.

In the end, as President of Ukraine, he is doing his job by trying to protect his country and people.

Everyone throws out "genocide" now, so it means almost nothing to events of this century.

[quote] How many French hospitals, schools, and churches did the RAF and US Army Air Force blast? Goode guys or bad guys you get collateral damage.

What the hell is your fucking point? Are you seriously trying to compare the two?

You're an idiot.

True but in an odd way he’s very swiftly becoming sort of a Lin-Manuel Miranda of foreign leaders. Overexposed and becoming a tad annoying.

[quote]The humanitarian corridors seem to be allowing the escape of UA soldiers who want to desert from the various cities, leaving the hardliners. After that comes the serious hammering.

Any evidence there's large scale desertion or are you just pulling that out of your ass?

[quote] Zelensky is upping the rhetoric so other countries step in. Who can blame him? That's what he is supposed to do, and that's what any of us would do were we in his shoes. ... In the end, as President of Ukraine, he is doing his job by trying to protect his country and people.

If I were he, I'd reach a peaceful settlement, now, even if that means meeting Russia's four demands. Because if I'm trying to protect my "country and people," that means ensuring that I do what it takes so my people stop dying as a result of this war.

If I surrender today, I'd reason, fewer people will be dead tomorrow than if I don't surrender.

I wouldn't attempt to delude others or myself with David-and-Goliath narratives.

But, if I were surrounded by scary people backed by Ukrainian oligarchs threatening my family if I didn't keep a hard line--fervent nationalists, for example--I'd do what they say and act exactly like Zelensky is acting like now.

[quote]50% of Americans support embroiling the US in yet another quagmire

It's not often that we get such unbiased polling. Bravo!

[quote] flooding Russia with massive amounts of US development and investment $$$ in the ‘90s, post-USSR, was what gave rise to the Russian kleptocracy.

That's very disingenuous. Corruption gave rise to the kleptocracy. You do not get to shift that blame onto the efforts to help Russia rebuild.

No doubt R573 would have surrendered to Hitler as well.

[quote]But, if I were surrounded by scary people backed by Ukrainian oligarchs threatening my family if I didn't keep a hard line--fervent nationalists, for example--I'd do what they say and act exactly like Zelensky is acting like now.

Is this the new Russian line now? The lies keep getting more outrageous.

It would only take a handful of guys with hammers and nails to make that blasted out bridge crossing safer. There are plenty of planks lying around the area.

Ah yes R545, the sign of a true journalist - Patreon!

R563 that article needs to brush up on what brinkmanship actually is. What the US is doing is not brinkmanship. Real brinkmanship would be if the US decided to push for a NFZ or more interventionist approaches that actually escalated the situation.

Refusing to roll over to Russia's demands or convincing Ukraine to do the same is not brinkmanship.

Zelensky is loaded - a billionaire. He doesn't need this stress. People are keeping him there.

World leaders see Putin constantly bombing the escape routes, violating cease fires they agreed to, bombing hospitals and children, bombing nuclear reactors, deliberately killing families with kids who were doing nothing but walking along a route that Russia agreed would be safe, etc. and realize Russia is taunting everyone.

They're committing as many atrocities as possible while being filmed and photographed. They keep escalating the war crimes.

They want a war with NATO and probably the US, too. There's no other explanation for it, really.

Pandora Papers.

The Guardian explains Zelensky's offshore accounts and massive wealth.

[quote] Driving the news: Ukraine is the country with the highest number of politicians named in the leak of offshore data, which implicates hundreds of people linked to offshore companies — including President Volodymyr Zelensky.

I'm not sure what the guy who's going on about Zelensky's Chernobyl "propaganda" is going on about, but Zelensky updated the IAEA by saying the workers at Chernobyl were exhausted and needed rest and were, due to circumstances, potentially likely to make mistakes because of the exhaustion, especially when it came to repairs.

The IAEA is continuing to be very concerned about Chernobyl. They're not saying it's safe and there's no problem like some guy on this thread is implying.

[quote]Director General Grossi has repeatedly stressed that any military or other action that could threaten the safety or security of Ukraine’s nuclear power plants must be avoided.

[quote]“I remain gravely concerned about the deteriorating situation in Ukraine, especially about the country’s nuclear power plants, which must be able to continue operating without any safety or security threats,” he said. “Any accident caused as a result of the military conflict could have extremely serious consequences for people and the environment, in Ukraine and beyond.”

[quote] There's no other explanation for it, really

Other than pure evil and love of destruction, you mean.

Is there a Part V?

France 24 reports on the Pandora Papers.

No one's a saint. The Disney narrative we're getting from the media is bull.

The Daily Show explains the Pandora Papers

Why are people talking about the Pandora Papers? What has that got to do with Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

It's one Pro Russian troll stinking up the entire thread.

Oh, thanks R591.

Go bother some goats, troll.

R590, the point is that Zelensky may not be in control here. And that he's not a saint whom we should believe 100% because the media makes him out to be one.

Those accounts seem more defensive in Zs case. He knew this day might come which is why he set up the accounts. That area of the world is not stable and we see why he did it. Pretty smart.

There are children here who first learned about Ukraine on CNN a few weeks ago, and now are so certain they know what's been going on over there for the last decade.

Anyone who introduces any information that doesn't fit into their narrative--even if reported by the mainstream media--is a Russian troll.

Block those children.

He didn’t take his money and run. Even though he could have afforded to abandon Ukraine, he stayed. He is a hero

So now Zelensky hid his wealth because he knew this day will come!!!! Really????

Zelensky is a puppet. He just does what Americans tell him to do. The war stops once the US backs off and they are not. This a proxy fight between USA vs. Russia. Ukraine is just a pawn.

Americans are evil, everywhere they go is a destruction. Now they are trying to implicate Poland in this. The latest Polish planes situation is another embarrassment for Americans.

Meanwhile, Russia just stated that they will NOT stop until every single one of their demands is met. So, fuck you, America.

As R597 types from his shithole Russian country, sucking Putin's cock. Go fight for your last Big Mac and Ikea pillow like all of the other Russian scum.

R597, this is DataLounge. We're not going to let you post again until you tell us who had the worst boob job:

1. Princess Stephanie

2. Paris Hilton

3. Donatella Versace

4. Vladimir Putin

5. Vivian Vance

R598, Thank God, good riddance American junk. You enjoy your shitburgers in whatever some shithole in Alabama you are. Fat ass, Yankee.

So R597 is not even pretending anymore. Any chance we can get someone to kick him off the site?

You still haven't told us who got the worst boob job, R600.

r597, enjoy your new economy.

R561, no, not irony. The Revolution of Dignity in 2014 led to 121 deaths. The Russian invasion of Crimea led to more than 10,000 deaths. One was rioting in the streets over an extremely unpopular decision and the other was a full blown war.

[quote]Corruption gave rise to the kleptocracy. You do not get to shift that blame onto the efforts to help Russia rebuild.

Correct. The US-style liberal market reforms were promoted by the think tanks and consultants. But it was the communist elites - gatekeepers who doled out the state owned economies into their own very private hands. The Russians also exported corruption throughout post-Soviet Europe, esp. in former satellite countries. The aim was to capture entire sectors of their economies through kickbacks and corruption of consecutive governments - so imagine the political influence. The main venue has been the energy sector. For instance, Bulgaria is a EU and NATO country whose energy sector is entirely in the hands of Russian interests. And not only in Eastern Europe - see the former German chancellor Gerhard Schröder .

[quote][R590], the point is that Zelensky may not be in control here. And that he's not a saint whom we should believe 100% because the media makes him out to be one.

Well then, r593, we'll just let Putin have his way. That obviously will make you happy.

Bless your heart, r597.

Your insults wound us, r600, absolutely wound us...giggle.