NHS nurses sacked over Annex B while Parliament debate

This sounds like the plot of a Shonda Rimes show (names and all).

“The rights of another group do not supersede the rights of the group that is already there. My contention is that the dignity, the privacy and the safety of women patients which has been fought over for several decades"

I like this Lady Nicholson. Glad people are feeling more comfortable bringing these issues to the public's attention, and to the legal authorities.

I'm camp Lady Nicholson.

How does this play out? While you're laid up with your real vagina after squeezing out a baby, or recovering from a hysterectomy or brutal rape, you are in full view of the mentally ill prostate haver in the next bed? What the actual fuck.

R4 it gets worse. Lady Nicholson also cited the recent case of a 14-year old girl who was expected to undergo a cervical smear test conducted by a man, even after she and her mother specifically requested that a female nurse or doctor perform the exam.

British woman are becoming fearful to see a doctor or undergo hospital treatment thanks to this new world order. Something has got to be done, and thankfully a few women in power are standing up and defying the new regulations.

[quote] becoming fearful to see a doctor

Half of Britain's population will be fearful of visiting the NHS if they're treated by this black-hearted, black-clothed doctrinal zealot—

^ I wonder if that nurse at R6 took the Hippocratic Oath? or the Nightingale Pledge?

I've been saying this since the translunacy intensified 6 years ago. End the empty-headed debate, make it easy and simple: Dicks in the Gents. Twats in the Ladies.

Thanks to the fuckwit who bumped this dead old thread from last February.

[quote]British woman are becoming fearful to see a doctor or undergo hospital treatment thanks to this new world order.

Yeah, you're not a QAnon lunatic AT ALL, are you?

Are all wards single sex, then? I thought some were mixed.

I feel if I was ill enough to be in hospital I wouldn't really care what ward they put me in, considering some hospitals are really struggling for beds to the point some are stuck on trolleys while they wait for a bed to free up.

I also don't mind having a male or female doctor if I'm ill. They've all seen it before and aren't going to judge my genitalia if they need to see it for medical reasons.

I do think the trans stuff has gone too far, but I also feel the defensive people have gone too far as well. Women who don't want to be within sight of a man because we're all clearly interested in seeing them (sarcasm) or women who don't want to go near male doctors because they're obviously all pervs (sarcasm again).

I have been on mixed wards in the past. The annoyance comes from noisy patients not what sex they are. There are individual side wards for those requiring more privacy for whatever reason.

The Baroness is ignorant. Sort patients by their birth sex, by their DNA. Protect females from men who'll say anything, any lie, to get where they want to be. DUH. As if that hasn't been happening, some men taking advantage of vulnerable females, since the beginning of humanity! If YOU want to live under the safety of the Honor System like the TRAs do, then take the oaths and combine all prisons, schools, bathrooms, etc.

[quote] the Honor System

The word 'honorable' doesn't seem appropriate for these deceivers.

The obvious potential for abuse cannot be ignored, not if you care at all about girls and women. We must prioritize safety over feelings--safety for those who have less muscles, strength, height, and aggressive hormone advantages naturally. Real women are smaller, physically weaker, vulnerable to rape. Women are more vulnerable to these things, as statistics around the world show, than are men who call themselves female. Look at the numbers. Look at who the VAST MAJORITY of victims of male violence are.

Stop forcing us to live in fantasyland! It's not safe for us! Be REALISTIC. Which group, women and girls OR transwomen, are most likely to be taken advantage of? THINK.

I can’t understand why the presence of a penis in a room would affect a woman’s dignity if they’re in a ward? Don’t people have visitors? Should men be banned from visiting women in a woman’s ward?

As another poster said, noise is the main issue in any hospital setting as it can affect your sleep / recovery. Panicking about the possibility of one of the other patients not having the same genitalia as you is just self indulgent snowflake bullshit. Get over yourself you’re in a public ward you can’t police the other patients.

Also if I needed a prostate exam I wouldn’t give a flying fuck if a woman or a man was doing it as long as it was done correctly? Why are people being babied so much about this stuff? The paranoia is through the roof.

R14 the vast majority of abuse happens in the home. Should we ban men and women from living with each other? I stg some of you are so fucking stupid 🙄🙄🙄. Try and think about the rationale and proportionality of these things you want to impose.

[quote] Also if I needed a prostate exam I wouldn’t give a flying fuck if a woman or a man was doing it as long as it was done correctly? Why are people being babied so much about this stuff?

Ok, so it doesn't worry you. Speak for yourself.

Today I went to get my first ever cervical smear test, and when I went to check in at Reception, I was told that the gyneacological nurse 'Jackie' would administer to me. It was a depressing feeling to realise that, for a horrified few minutes as I sat silent in the waiting room, I wasn't certain if 'Jackie' would turn out to be a biological female nurse or not. Perhaps I should have asked. It occurred to me that in the year 2022 this was an awful, bizarre and dystopian worry to have. Thankfully, Jackie was a real bio woman, and she was so lovely and professional, a credit to her clinic and the NHS.

Call me a snowflake for wanting a female nurse specifically as a female patient, for 'discriminating', but it does matter to me and plenty of other women. How do you know which female patients are survivors of sexual/genital trauma abuse, or are in need of empathetic care from someone with the same body type? In the case of OBGYN, how can you be sure which patients need careful treatment with smaller gentler hands, or who have never been penetrated before? It's about putting patient needs and care as a priority, over the delicate feels of a male doctor who doesn't want a woman doing a job as well as him.

R17 you’re participating in discrimination. If a man is trained to provide a smear test and you turn him down because he’s a man, that’s discrimination. You need to work on your own issues separately and understand that a smear test is a service provided by a doctor. If you all of a sudden decided you’d prefer a white doctor over an Asian doctor would you still think it was righteous?

[quote] with smaller gentler hands

You’ve got to be kidding me.

[quote] delicate feels of a male doctor who doesn't want a woman doing a job as well as him.

Nice bit of tabloid column writing there ;)

[quote] If a man is trained to provide a smear test and you turn him down because he’s a man, that’s discrimination.

Yeah, I know it's discrimination; I said and admitted as much (but thanks for mansplaining my own fucking comment back to me). What I said, if you need it put in simpler terms, is that I felt it was necessary sex-based discrimination for reasons of patient safety and care. Sometimes we need to discriminate to protect ourselves--that's life, mate, that's reality. That's what I'm saying. But you knew that, didn't you, you creep?

All the ideological twaddle in the world about men being 'just as competent' and a doctor just being a sexless robotic means of obtaining healthcare means nothing if, e.g. by forcing a male nurse/doctor on a female patient you've fucking retraumatised her because she can't undress in front of a man because she's been assaulted in the past.

[quote] If you all of a sudden decided you’d prefer a white doctor over an Asian doctor would you still think it was righteous?

There's no wide physical discrepancy between white & Asian men. Maybe a small amount in terms of height/size or amount of body hair or something, but beyond that, not much worth noting. The physical discrepancy however between most average men and woman, race irrespective, is massive. We're taking into account bone density, muscle mass, testosterone levels, natural baseline height & weight (before fitness etc.).

Again, though, you knew that. You're just shit-stirring and whatabouting to make women look hysterical for defending their own safety.

[quote] forcing a male nurse/doctor on a female patient you've fucking retraumatised her because she can't undress in front of a man because she's been assaulted in the past.

Girl you’re using outlying situations in order to justify your everyday discrimination. Excusing discrimination by using extreme situations is a shitty tactic done by people that generally know they’re wrong, and it’s pretty shitty of you to use the instances of women being traumatized to justify your own shitty behaviour.

[quote] There's no wide physical discrepancy between white & Asian men. Maybe a small amount in terms of height/size or amount of body hair or something, but beyond that, not much worth noting. The physical discrepancy however between most average men and woman, race irrespective, is massive. We're taking into account bone density, muscle mass, testosterone levels, natural baseline height & weight (before fitness etc.).

Oh…..my god?

Lmao are you thinking about bone density every time you book a mammogram? Girl listen to yourself you’re talking absolute shite.

And nobody’s forcing a doctor on a patient. You’re entering Jehovah’s Witness / insane religious territory here with your demands. And that’s just the basis of this, you’re demanding services be provided to you in a way that justifies your own bigotry when all you need is the service done correctly. I stg.

I'm sure the UK's Muslim population will accept mixed NHS wards with their usual aplomb....

R20 doesn't get it, or refuses to get it. It's not about questioning the professionalism or even the fucking existence of male medical personnel. It's about giving respect and privacy and a level of consideration to the patients who don't have as much ability to combat any abuses they may face during treatment (spoken as someone who has faced medical malpractise from a male doctor).

Note also that the care-in-the-community professions--nursing/doctoring, teaching, psychiatry and therapy, elder or disabled care, social work--tend to attract much higher numbers of abusive, controlling or fetishistic personality types to work in them, because of the access these jobs afford workers to vulnerable people. That's on record. So taking that into consideration, it's not unreasonable that female patients--likewise elderly or disabled patients--may want a measure of peace of mind and understanding when it comes to the medical service they're getting (paying for, in fact, whether via taxes/NI etc. or directly).

Anyone using the NHS - male or female - can request to be seen by a doctor of a sex of their choosing. It may mean a longer wait, according to my cousin (who is a matron), but the option is definitely in the policies. Whether this option is taken seriously by all hospitals and all clinicians all the time isn't guaranteed, though. Fight for your rights.

My cousin is the first to admit their hands are currently tied when it comes to some transpeople conflicts. She isn't a supporter of men identifying as women - without actually making any physiological changes - being in the same room as biological women.

For me, as someone with a transwoman friend (who had hormone treatment, multiple surgeries, the lot!), I'm acutely aware that many transwomen do not support men with beards and dicks saying "I'm a woman because I feel like it!". That pisses them off as much as it does us.

R22 why don’t you compile a spreadsheet of identity types that you don’t want and bring it to your clinic next time. You can say you don’t want a male doctor, or any trans doctor, or maybe a black doctor, or an Asian doctor, and you don’t want to share a ward with any men, or non nationals, or people over 65, or trans people, or autistic people.

You know what it might be easier for you to just say you want a white female (“BIO”) doctor and only other white English women in the room with you. Just go for it hun you deserve it. And if question you just use some other woman’s story and scream “TRAUMA” until they give in. And then complain about the NHS on the way home and vote conservative x.

R17 Your argument is confusing. You firstly point out that some women may not want a male doctor because of a past trauma (eg rape). I can accept that.

But then you later mention "the delicate feels of a male doctor who doesn't want a woman doing a job as well as him", which then switches the focus from the patient to the doctor. I daresay most male doctors wouldn't mind if a female patient refused their care. They'd just move onto the next patient. Yet you make out as though they'd be upset about a female doctor being as good as them.

R24 literally I have never voted Conservative, being as I'm fucking Welsh, you clown.

As for this...

[quote] compile a spreadsheet of identity types that you don’t want and bring it to your clinic next time. You can say you don’t want a male doctor, or any trans doctor, or maybe a black doctor, or an Asian doctor, and you don’t want to share a ward with any men, or non nationals, or people over 65, or trans people, or autistic people.

You must be shattered, setting up all these strawmen. I didn't say a word about race, or nationality, or age, or mental capability. No-one did. Except you. Because you complete lack the ability to understand or present a nuanced take, or use human empathy to place yourself in a specific context.

It's YOU who want to 'scream' blanket insults ("TERF!", "BREXITEER!!!" and "MISANDRIST!!!", I'm guessing) and complain endlessly about the choices or preferences of others, but of course you're projecting that onto me.

Love all the mansplaining on this thread. Losers.

R26 girl you can’t accuse someone of projecting and then project onto them in the same sentence 😭.

My point about race / ethnicity is that you understand why you can’t discriminate against those in a client / service provider context (or at least why it’s wrong to do so) yet you are trying to justify discriminating via sex or gender because you have a feeling (?) and therefore can’t acknowledge that you’re wrong. Reflect reflect reflect. Also I don’t believe in misandry, and I suppose we can leave it at this, being welsh you have it hard enough as it is ;) x

R18, fuck you.

I wouldn't mind if this was just a general website, but -- let's face it -- it's largely for and used by gay men.

So (mostly straight) women coming here to lecture us and call us 'mansplainers' is pretty hypocritical. No one's making you stay.

[quote] If a man is trained to provide a smear test and you turn him down because he’s a man, that’s discrimination.

Someone should break it to R18 that women are no longer chattel and that they now have right to CHOOSE exactly WHO they wish to invade their twat, as well as touch other body parts. It's called personal preference. I would have thought posters like R18 would be sensitive to the issue of personal preference. Considering what type of forum this is.

R31 girl shut up - you’re misconstruing your being discriminatory as “rights!1!!!” Pls go and read the UN charter and learn what are and aren’t human rights. Begging you. This is so buzzfeed of u lol.

R28, ff you can't tell the difference between providing "services" like baking a cake, building a house or serving you in a department store and performing extremely intimate medical care like a doctor does then you are either obtuse or a clueless male.

Some services are very different. Men and women ARE different in ways that some of you seem oblivious to.

R27 fuck off, this is a gay forum

[quote] t you understand why you can’t discriminate against those in a client / service provider context (or at least why it’s wrong to do so) yet you are trying to justify discriminating via sex or gender because you have a feeling

No, not because I 'have a feeling'--because according to today's accepted genetic understanding, I have a totally different, more sensitive and less powerful physical body than a man, one that works in a way that a man cannot 100% understand (study and medical training only go so far), and one that Men in the general collective sense of the word have historically abused systemically. Look into the history of medicine, it's gruesome for everyone but in particular for women. In fact, until the last hundred years, post-animistic medical science has not taken womens' health needs and differences into proper account in terms of studies, prescriptions etc.

That's the issue, that's the point. Surprise surprise you aren't listening or grasping fine detail, though. Ever been checked for ASD?

R33 maybe for your primary care, but for hospital care or for something like a smear test provided at a clinic it is not acceptable sorry.

[quote] intimate medical care

It’s not intimate. It’s just medical care. Get over yourself.

[quote] I have a totally different, more sensitive and less powerful physical body than a man, one that works in a way that a man cannot 100% understand (study and medical training only go so far), and one that Men in the general collective sense of the word have historically abused systemically. Look into the history of medicine, it's gruesome for everyone but in particular for women. In fact, until the last hundred years, post-animistic medical science has not taken womens' health needs and differences into proper account in terms of studies, prescriptions etc.

What a load of bullshit. This is like a Pantene ad copy mixed with a preteen school assignment. A man can perform a smear test, and provide gyno care, and supervise a birth. Medical training actually goes very far, and isn't dependent on your mood. Wtf is wrong with you? Also as other ppl have mentioned, this is a gay mens board, keep that in mind x.

R32 You're dictating what should and should not be personal preference. England has not degenerated into a gulag where others' diktats take precedence. Neither has the UN.

[quote] It’s not intimate. It’s just medical care. Get over yourself.

R36 It's INTIMATE. That you don't deem it so doesn't change the fact that that's exactly what it is.

[quote] A man can perform a smear test, and provide gyno care, and supervise a birth.

R37 Not if I prefer him not to. That's the crux which you seem to ignore. Preference. My body, I choose. Not you.

R38 you choose to discriminate, let’s leave it at this as I said 10 comments ago. Maybe you can repeat yourself on a different forum, mumsnet maybe? X

[quote] fuck off, this is a gay forum

What does that mean? You're not suggesting there are no gay women are you? Do you need to be schooled on DL? Do you need to be told for the millionth time that this forum is and always has been for all gay people?

R38 I couldn't agree more, everyone is entitled to freedom of choice, it was your "mansplaining" comment that was irritating!

[quote] you choose to discriminate,

R39 EVERYONE discriminates in their personal choices. Including YOU.

R41 I'm not the author of the "mansplaining" post/comment.

Sorry R43 I mistakenly marked myself as R37 when I replied to you.

It's hilarious when Americans like r32 feel the need to comment on the details of other countries' laws.

Are there any gay women in this topic?

Willing to bet if there are any women, they're straight...

R46 yep, goldstar.

But a couple of shrill kneejerk MRAs in here think I'm a Frau, so whatever. I'll leave you boys to your "what about mennnn T0T" circlejerk.

If you mansplainers think women should be forced to have some random male stick things up their vaginas then any woman who chooses can have sex with you and you can't discriminate because that would be sex discrimination based on your stupid fucking logic. You don't want to fuck women. We don't want men sticking things up our vaginas and squeezing our breasts.

So, this lesbian says fuck off to all the mansplainers.

Girls, girls... calm down! You're ALL cunts! ;D

I do understand some women wouldn't want a male doctor examining them if they have trauma in their past, such as rape. It's not that.

It's the fact some women call a men mansplainers the second they don't 100% agree with what they say. Which makes it seem like it's more about trolling and being divisive than it is about having a discussion.

Calling people names will never endear them to your cause.

I meant to add that I suspect at least some of the posters saying "mansplainer" are men parodying how the more extreme feminists act. I see you!

Well said R50

[quote] Girl you’re using outlying situations in order to justify your everyday discrimination. Excusing discrimination by using extreme situations is a shitty tactic done by people that generally know they’re wrong, and it’s pretty shitty of you to use the instances of women being traumatized to justify your own shitty behaviour.

R20, it is only because you are not a woman that you are allowed to believe that female sexual abuse and trauma is an "outlying" situation. You're out of your depth.

This is not the law in the UK. it is NHS "policy". In fact the UK law does allow and even mandate same-sex spaces for women in certain areas. Of all places to not feel secure and private, a hospital ward is the last place you should be deprived of those things.

The whole idea that you cannot question a male in a female space destroys any safeguarding women have had to do.

I guess we knew that eventually the world would rebel at this nonsense.

[quote] I can’t understand why the presence of a penis in a room would affect a woman’s dignity if they’re in a ward?

I think I agree with you on principle. But I was part of one incident where I was obliged to call an ambulance for an elderly female relative.

The situation was frantic in the emergency room as the nurses buzzed around attending to that elderly female relative while I sat down so as not to get in their way. They were undressing her. I was looking away. They hadn't drawn any curtains so she was visible to everyone in the ward. Andd eventually the nurses realised they needed to draw the curtains and politely asked to sit on the chair outside..

[quote]It's the fact some women call a men mansplainers the second they don't 100% agree with what they say.

You really are dense, aren't you? It wasn't disagreeing. It was explaining to women how they should feel about a man shoving things inside them while they are spread-eagle in stirrups. As a man, you do not get to tell us how to feel about it. You don't get to explain to us why we should feel a certain way. That is mansplaining and you all are doing it all over this thread.

Part of issue at least for NHS hospitals is they still cling to those open Nightingale wards. JACHO long since forced American hospitals to get rid of them in favor of semi or fully private rooms, but alas unless one goes into a private hospital in UK, you're likely going to be on an open ward.

Besides infection control one big reason hospitals in USA and elsewhere got shot of Nightingale wards was lack of privacy for patients. Admittingly sharing a room with one or three other patients isn't so private, but beats doing so with twenty or more.

All singe patient suite hospitals should be the norm. You simply cannot recover when shoved in a room with one to three other disgusting humans doing all their noisy, disgusting human things.

Open wards are nasty.

I can't even imagine the smell of multiple people using bed pans all in one room. Just being in the hallway in a hospital with normal rooms makes me want to vomit.

[quote]Part of issue at least for NHS hospitals is they still cling to those open Nightingale wards. JACHO long since forced American hospitals to get rid of them in favor of semi or fully private rooms, but alas unless one goes into a private hospital in UK, you're likely going to be on an open ward. Besides infection control one big reason hospitals in USA and elsewhere got shot of Nightingale wards was lack of privacy for patients. Admittingly sharing a room with one or three other patients isn't so private, but beats doing so with twenty or more.

It depends what the patient is in hospital for but in some circumstances Nightingale wards provide better care for patients.

If you're recovering from surgery then a side room to yourself is better. But if you're elderly and frail and disorientated you'll be better off on a Nightingale where staff can see you and help the patients go to the toilet rather than them falling and breaking their hips and or getting a head injury.

With staffing crises a the moment you're more likely to get better care on a Nightingale ward than a unit of individual rooms.

But the trick to getting your own room, if you desire it, is to tell the hospital you're non binary. All NHS equality and diversity leads have done the Stonewall training and know it's a degrading experience to put non binary patients in the same space as people of the same sex, so clinical staff have been told to prioritise the needs of NB people to make sure they have their dignity.

Your last paragraph, r61.

You're kidding - You must be.

If not, UK taxpayers must be beyond apoplectic.

Actually many hospitals in USA long since put trans in rooms by themselves (private), even if their insurance or Medicaid wouldn't ordinarily pay.

There was no way back in day that a pre- op MTF trans was going onto an GYN floor in a room with a woman or women. Nor would they go into a semi-private room with males.

R56 It's disingenuous, though. The situation you describe -- ie "a man shoving things inside them while they are spread-eagle in stirrups" makes it sound completely different to what we were actually discussing - i.e. a trained medical doctor who also happens to be male examining a woman as part of his job.

You act like all male doctors in the NHS are perverts who get a kick out of "shoving things inside" you. Which you must know is not the case. So, like I say, you're disingenuous.

[quote]Your last paragraph, [R61]. You're kidding - You must be. 9If not, UK taxpayers must be beyond apoplectic.

The Stonewallisation of the NHS

[quote]We now use the term ‘gender’ to refer to an individual’s sense of themselves and is based on an understanding of gender as a biopsychosocial developed aspect of identity. Gender describes a part of a person’s identity which is wider than their biological or legal sex. This change to terminology may not be reflected in all historical reports published on this page.

The inmates have taken control of the asylum - by brainwashing the wardens and the staff.

R64, the fact that you cannot get it through your thick head that what you are doing is the epitome of not only mansplaining but, even worse, telling women how we should feel about things that don't at all involve you in any way is beyond ridiculous...much like yourself.

R67 It seems like you struggle to articulate a point of view without getting angry being insulting, which shows you didn't have much of a point to begin with.

I maintain you are being disingenuous and refused to reply to the points I made, instead just telling me I'm thick. Maybe you'll tell me I smell next...

R68, I literally described exactly what you did to be labeled a mansplainer. You have made no points to counter any of the actual women on this board telling you that you are full of shit because you have no perspective on this situation. You have no leg to stand on in this argument yet you keep pretending you do. As usual, trying to tell a mansplainer what he's doing is like talking to a brick wall. We women are used to your kind. We deal with you every single day.

Private hospital sweetie! Cromwell, Princess Grace Hospital, Cleveland Clinic London....

R69 Yeah you're so hard done by. Probably a straight white woman living in a western country. My heart bleeds for how tough you have it.

[quote][R69] Yeah you're so hard done by. Probably a straight white woman living in a western country. My heart bleeds for how tough you have it.

Now remind me why women want female doctors?

As I gay man reading this conversation -- I don't know why, work avoidance -- I am astonished. If I were a woman I would not want to have man, self-identifying as a woman, examining my nether parts. That the pro-trans individual here (in an explosion of rhetorical hostility that could only come from a man, I think) equates this sensible desire with racism, etc. suggests that he has lost all contact with reality. It's a kind of cultural dementia.

R73 If you're talking about me, I'm not even pro trans. I was talking about male doctors -- ie actual men -- not men who say they're women. I don't know how you'd get anything else from what I posted. And yet I'm the one who's lost all contact with reality? Okay...

[quote] Yeah you're so hard done by. Probably a straight white woman [bold]living in a western country.[/bold] My heart bleeds for how tough you have it.

I don't know what forum you think you're in, but if you mean the Western World, that's pretty fucking likely for anyone here.

What hasn't this thread been cancelled yet?

All the other mermaid and eunuch threads are disappearing.