What is gay culture anymore?

Check out Daniel Harris, "Rise and Fall of Gay Culture". It's older, but a good book. Generally, it seems like camp is on life support, but I think lots of people are happy about that?

It is more fragmented now I would say. The club scene guys and the quiet corporate guys and the drag race fans...do they all mingle?

I don't know if it was ever true that all gays loved Judy Garland...

I agree about camp r1 but I feel like it's making a comeback maybe it's just nostalgia but it seems like a new type of camp.

Well, first, I'm happy for them (and somewhat envious) that coming out is a non-event for so many of them these days. It should be.

Second, gays will always be a minority (alas!) and there will always be bigoted/judgmental people, so I tend to think many aspects of gay culture will survive and get passed down person to person and at cultural institutions like the DL.

Yes, I just wrote 'cultural institutions like the DL'.

"Gay" culture seems to be all about drag nowadays.

R5 yaaassssss

[5] and it’s not even good drag.

I agree, I stopped watching drag rage when I was older than the majority of them

The Pride parades have been getting tired for years. But some elderqueens doggedly hold onto that.

It was always little more than drug taking and casual sex, both of which are on the downslide.

Dancing, which is also avoided these days

It’s going On Grindr and the apps texting people and not actually meeting up. It’s all men trying to goad people into their OnlyFans page. It’s not pretty.

Only sex, random hookups and open relationships are left.

Drag was always part of the mainstream entertainment. Back in the old days, drag performers were called female impersonators. RuPaul's Drag Race is a mainstream success, because the mainstream likes drag entertainment.

Gay Culture has always been "repackaged" to make it more appealing to the mainstream. Just look at TV shows like Will & Grace. However, in the long run, it helped to push gay / LGBT acceptance further.

But let's not kid ourselves, there is still a long road ahead of us since in many states members of the Gay and LGBT Community can still get fired without any other reason than their sexual identity. Landlords can terminate contracts and throw renters out for being gay. Adoption agencies can deny gay couples their services, as can other professions (like bakers and wedding photographers).

Gay Culture can still make an impact. It just moves to different medias (social media, streaming, etc.).

R14 - yes drag has been a *part* but now it seems to be the be all and end all.

While it would be fantastic if it were to reach the point where being gay was as "normal" as being straight and people didn't have to bother with even coming out, that situation also does mean the end of "gay culture" as a unique experience.

While I wouldn't necessarily wish it on anyone, there is something to the shared experience and struggle that the vast majority of gay people, even in big cities and gay meccas, experienced while growing up.

Part of what shapes culture is a uniquely shared experience which includes various touchstones, common references, and struggles. Without them, there is no "culture."

I've never really identified with the mainstream media's perception of gay culture like pride parades, drag queens, diva worship and Queer Eye. All seemed shallow, empty, effeminate and for extroverts.

The gay alternative scene of punk rock, rap, skateboarding, internet forums and zines were more my alley.

R13 I mostly agree with that but have you ever met a straight person in their 20s? All of that is extremely common with straight people as well. I don't think it's uniquely part of gay culture anymore. It's just mainstream.

Gay culture is any oxymoron.

What do you want to have for yourself, though? As pointed out, there are plenty of mainstream places and venues where a gay person can be himself. What sort of "From Gays for Gays" stuff do you want which you don't have to share with the mainstream sooner or later? Anal sex? More and more straight guys like to get rimmed, fingered or even pegged by their girlfriends. That's no more a gay exclusive. Blowjobs? Women do it for decades now (one can argue that guys are better at it, whatever). Cruising and private sex parties? Straight people have their swinger parties (or the old-fashioned key parties) indoors and outdoors. How about art like ballet or classical music? Not gay exclusive enough? Too stuffy? What about gay novels, poems, music, etc.? There are plenty of gay / LGBT artists out there who are not part of the mainstream. You know, the ones who get a "WHO???" response on DL.

I think a lot of what is gay culture was really NYC, SF, LA and London culture. Basically urban centers where gays congregated together and formed their own safe communities and became vocal as a result. The arts, fashion, literature and academics which many gays were part of where just part of the city world and they were less discriminatory than blue collar professions.

Gays in small towns and rural areas just either have to blend in or are outcasts. Basically silent. Play football, work at a factory or Walmart and have gay sex but more discreetly. Maybe your small town has a gay bar but most likely not.

So it is probably more urban vs rural. With gay culture really just being a subset of urban culture.

For all the great progress we've made, we are not living in some post-gay world. Coming out isn't this easy, smooth, non-event for everyone, and the 'closet' and its culture haven't gone anywhere. All the old shit still exists, it just evolves and takes on new forms. And if we're not careful about where we're going as a society, it can get bad far too easily once again. Don't take any of it for granted.

As for gay culture, like everything, it evolves. It changes. And some things die off, and some thing stay the same. As said above, much of it isn't that different from the straight world anymore. The sexual aspect is still there, it's just in the digital realm now. Judy and others have replaced by whoever is relevant to those of a particular age/demographic now. The one major thing I would say feels significantly different is that the physical spaces we one occupied (often in the underground), and the culture of those spaces and experiences, are gone in exchange for it all now online/social media, and the physical spaces left are very mainstreamed, corporate and clean.

I, for one, don't miss drag queens. I always found them gross, scary and not funny.

A crisis like AIDS helped in the late 80s and early 90s the Gay Community in the sense that angry or frustrated gay artists expressed themselves in a way that resonated with Gay people (in the closet or out and proud) and it even got the mainstream's attention.

Nothing now.

Every gay boy should read James Baldwin and Oscar Wilde.

Or Alec Baldwin.

Gregg Araki's early movies like The Living End and Totally Fucked Up captured the frustration and isolating experience of being gay and nihilism that could result from it. He showed many different types of gays too, effeminate ones, masculine ones, club-going ones, professional white-collar ones, and many in the rock and punk scenes. The Doom Generation and Nowhere, both had a male protagonist who was mostly gay but in a hetero relationship and spent time resisting that until the end. Not masterpiece movies but really struck a chord with gays who were more on the introverted and alternative side that were never going to be able to assimilate.

R21 I think you're right. And with gay acceptance becoming more widespread, especially in rural communities, young gay people have less incentive to migrate to urban Meccas. So the "community" is becoming more diverse and less centralized. And even in larger cities gay people are not finding it necessary to move to the gayborhood

R28 Araki’s movies really appeal to me and speak to my feelings of loneliness and marginalisation and frustration, even though I’m not the target audience (lesbian, not urban, and too young).

The main character dynamic in THE LIVING END especially touches a chord, and the ending scene makes me melancholy.

The pressure's off, though the prejudice isn't gone entirely. Little gay kids still grow up with the impact of hearing fag on the playground or what have you. We're still othered to some extent, sometimes to a large extent. What's helping is the structural changes the prevent or reduce the impact of that. The price of that may be the loss of some distinct identity but that reflects the progress into acceptance, which has to involve some mainstreaming. For our mental and emotional health, our prosperity as gay people I argue that's a price worth paying, even at the loss of that rich apartness that characterized us while we moved.

[quote]Gays don't identify with Judy Garlands anymore.

Mamas????

I think gay culture has taken a path that's similar to other cultures, or movements, or styles of communication.....things that were once "on the edge" or fringe and that are in conflict with the mainstream eventually become part of the mainstream. We've seen that slowly over the last 50 years, especially with marriage equality.

Death, R33?

[quote] Gays in small towns and rural areas just either have to blend in or are outcasts. Basically silent. Play football, work at a Walmart, and have gay sex but more discreetly. Maybe your small town has a gay bar but most likely not.

R21 has it right. The English town I grew up in is and always has been like that for gays & lesbians. My lesbian aunt has never come out officially to anyone (not even her younger gay family members), and essentially presents as an elder workaholic barren spinster with close ‘sisterly’ female friendships. She mostly only ever does the ‘normal’ straight things, except for the odd ‘hiking/camping’ trip out of the county when I suspect she cuts up more and dykes it up where the home community can’t knlw about it. She’s in her sixties now; can’t imagine how hard it’s been all these years.

Easy to say, “just move to the City” or “emigrate, then”, but if you’re really rural then sometimes in it’s in your blood and it’s hard to just leave forever (or even a long time). The cultural differences are stark. Not everyone is a city rat, or can be.

Reckon it’s sort of like being left-handed. Mostly destigmatized and unremarkable in the West, but occasionally one hits a societal bump and is reminded that we still do live in a world made for and by a majority of right-handers.

What is gay culture? What was gay culture? What does gay culture hope to be?

Rock stars, rappers and athletes who were all paragons of masculinity are all coming out too. So we're now seeing more masculine and non-stereotypical gays which is helping with acceptance. But I do think there will be pressure on effeminate or non-monogamous gays to conform to gender roles and heteronormative relationships among conservative environments.

There never was one gay culture .

Race, class, age etc.

[quote]But I do think there will be pressure on effeminate or non-monogamous gays to conform to gender roles and heteronormative relationships among conservative environments.

Yes. They’ll transition.

Gay culture is getting as much attention as possible in these ways: Dressing up in Halloween costumes daily (fashions by Nasty Pig), being a clown who dishes out advice à la JVN, spending too much money, making sexual explicit art as one of the many ways to signal that you’re gay. Most importantly, sex comes FIRST, and no one stands between me and COCK!!!

I'm sick of people tacking "anymore" onto the end of sentences.

Part of what I was touching on at R33 is that the things that were truly outrageous, revolutionary, etc. are now mainstream enough to be corporatized and commercialized.

For better or worse, drag is now a commodity (thanks to RPDR).

Bars being the only place gays and lesbians meet has been dismissed by younger "queers" - because they recognize (perhaps rightly so) that bars aren't the healthiest place to be 24/7. The old framework of gay spaces and gay magazines supported by ads for alcohol and sexually suggestive ads aren't cutting it with the younger crowd.

It also parallels in some ways what's happened in, say, television - what used to be a few channels now has a hundred different channels to choose. Same with gay culture. It's not just parade, drag, leather. There's pluses to having more choices, more ways to build and access community, but you also lose that feeling of, wow, everyone experienced the same as me, watched the same thing as me, we have this shared experience to bond us, etc.

[QUOTE] Gay culture is getting as much attention as possible in these ways: Dressing up in Halloween costumes daily (fashions by Nasty Pig), being a clown who dishes out advice à la JVN, spending too much money, making sexual explicit art as one of the many ways to signal that you’re gay. Most importantly, sex comes FIRST, and no one stands between me and COCK!!!

We call that being a Professional Gay, R41.

If you look at gays like an immigrant group, you'll have your answer.

Every group - Irish, Italian, Jewish, Puerto Rican- has a moment when they are still new to the US and a strong immigrant culture emerges, whether it's a Little Italy or the Borscht Belt.

Future generations start to assimilate and pretty soon they start to look and sound like everyone else, and don't live in distinct neighborhoods anymore and their identity as a new parent or tech geek or snowboard enthusiast become more important than their ethnicity and soon the only people left in the ethnic enclaves are very old or working class or both, and the disconnect becomes even more pronounced.

Same thing is happening to gays.

[quote] making sexual explicit art as one of the many ways to signal that you’re gay.

You rang?

Every culture dies.

Boys Town (no longer its name) will be a great symbol for the death of gay culture in the next 10 years when it’s decimated with crime, drugs, and prostitution.

Millennial gay. I did really love The Wizard of Oz as a kid. But I don't think that's a gay thing anymore. Many kids still watch and enjoy that movie just like Willy Wonka and Mary Poppins.

I did have a fondness of girly things like Barbie, Sailor Moon, Britney Spears and makeup and dresses as a little boy. But oddly I grew out of it and became more masculine in attitude and interests. I don't think it was entirely due to pressure. I read somewhere a lot of gender nonconforming boys grow up gay and many will become more masculine as they become aware of appropriate gender roles. Then there's those who don't.

There probably isn't a coherent gay culture. But there is a lot of commonality in growing up gay. Plus scientists have found there is a gay face and mannerism of walking too.

Young gays have an opportunity to create a whole new culture. They are growing up in a time of acceptance and often feel more kinship with straights over other gays.

Let’s see how that pans out

Gay culture has gone mainstream

The thing is, gay culture is about expressing yourself, your point of view. What is the usual go-to response to that these days? "What an attention whore!". Self-expression puts you in a position of either receiving "Yass, queen!" or "you're embarrassing yourself, you're embarrassing ME!" responses.

Social media makes self-expression more easy and provides one with a much bigger audience, but it also attracts a large number of haters and hecklers to be part of said audience.

Gay men were always drawn to women entertainers. Not much has changed, actually.

Are they haters or are they just honest?

R41

None of this is new. This thread is a giant turd.

I enjoy that we have mostly moved into the mainstream. After all , Judy garland was hardly an event to build a culture around.

American democracy is fragile. We are surrounded by shithole countries and evil religions. As Trump demonstrated, things can change overnight.

I thought the whole point was to just be normal, but maybe that's just my (gay) friends, and me.

I used to enjoy drag, but it hasn't been subversive in decades. Now drag queens want to read to children at libraries. The fuck?

Maybe the point was less to be normal than free to be ourselves, without oppression.

We've come a long way, baby!

There is no gay culture unless you're attractive or have money.

Tell that blue-collar gayborhoods. ^

*to blue-collar

Gay culture has and will continue to evolve, but we'll always be our own island, whatever the cultural signposts we recognize (whether it's old-school Bette and Judy fans, to whatever it is the young gays are into now). Gay women are their own club, gay men are our own (even though gay men and women are united by being same-sex attracted).

I know it's true bc when I'm hanging with the gay men I work with, we notice the same things, and find things amusing that others probably wouldn't notice. Minor example: years ago at a restaurant we both worked in, I was in the station with a coworker and he nodded at a woman sitting in my section "where did she get her hair done?" I said I didn't know, why? He said "cause I want to make sure I NEVER go there!"

It's just an easily amused bitchiness that most of us seem to have in common.

I guess maybe the biggest thing right now is the prevalence of gay male throuples. An astonishing number of middle-age gay men are in them. I know it's becoming more popular with younger straight people too but not nearly at the same numbers.

No thanks to throuples.

R45 you summed it up perfectly.

What was gay culture in the past exactly? What are we trying to save?

hiss.....

HISS!!!!!!!

R24 that's such a great photo

The Gen Z and Millenial still belt out Judy and Barbra songs.

Why not coming out, R16? People always share important life announcements with friends, family and the community. It seems a more important thing is not experiencing negative consequences for being gay.

I sense personally that there has always been a gay culture collective identity and awareness that are generational. Those who question why they think there isn't a "gay culture" any longer among younger people, are probably we Baby Boomers who identify with the gay culture that our generation grew up learning about and experiencing since the pre-Stonewall midcentury through the 2000s. Our generation saw and became used to the outcomes of the Gay Liberation movement, the rise of gay neighborhoods and bars in large urban centers, and the midcentury film and music icons particularly associated with that era. But ours wasn't the first gay culture identify -- most likely, different variations of that have been known, experienced, and lived for as long as there have been people in civilizations. We've just been used to our own late 20th century American version and stories of it. The Z-gays may not have Babs, Judy, exclusively gay nightclubs and '70s discos, but I think they have and will have their own gay cultural legacies and memories to enjoy and, later, to then reflect back wistfully on and wax sentimentally about with the gay generation that follows them.

It seems to be a question of whether you prefer straight culture appropriated for gay ends (see Judy) or prefabricated gay culture (dreck created just for gay audiences).

Or maybe the world has evolved to a place where being gay is no longer the most interesting thing about you.

I'm not a part of it, so why bother.

You forget gay advocacy is very much a part of gay culture, and still needed here and in many other places. When you hear about gay men being hanged in Iran or burned alive by homophobes in Ukraine/Poland or beaten up by gangs outside of clubs in France it makes it hard to pretend everything is fine and dandy.

Drag gets boring.

Our culture was born and lived in the shadows. No one knew what a slut I was. Except the colleague who saw me at the bookstore... or my publicist who joined the same sex party... Or... Oh never mind.

R18- Like tattoos.

R62 blue collar gay borhoods?

Can you name an example, because I can think of none.

Liking Judy Garland is really so gay and makes you an old Nelly gay.

[quote]What is gay culture anymore?

Uncultured.

R82- You must be OLD yourself if you still use the word Nellie.

Things changed so much, so fast that I’m not sure what being gay means now. I was born around Stonewall, never thought I’d live to see gay marriage - or for that matter, coming out in the prime of AIDS deaths, that I would live to see 30. I loved gay life (aka, culture) in the 1990s. But now I’m not sure what young gays want or need. All I know is I still like being surrounded by gays at gay bars - it’s a comfort that may be specific to my time and place but it’s where I feel comfortable and grateful.

R85- Back in the mid 1990's when I went to my first crowded gay bar it really made me feel normal that here were all types of guys in the bar. I started to not feel like a freak.

That’s all I want, a normal life with as few issues as possible, and my life can be about my work and what interests me. I guess that’s not the current LGBTQIA+ thinking, where your entire existence is about who you are, not what you do.

R87

You sound like a gaslighting conservative attacking gay people for Pride. “Current” thinking is not new at all, it’s an extension of what the community was.

r87. To this day, gay men can be legally fired just for being gay. I guess, you only care about such things when they happen to you, then it's "whaaaaaaa! Current LGBTQIA+, I've been betrayed by my own conservative peers, help meeeeeee!".

What is wrong or “conservative” with what R87 said?

To be honest, I never really identified with gay culture. The current focus is largely on trans, non binary and alphabet spaghetti, and I’ve never felt less affinity with it all. I’m just a guy who happens to like guys. Nothing to see here.

I’m gay but I get that transgenderism makes a lot of white gay men very rich, so that’s why they push it so much. Transgenderism “kills” poor gay kids. Wealthy white gay guys don’t care.

I imagine these wealthy white gay men who push transgenderism are Peter Thiel types. Sociopaths.

R92

Trans is not the threat you conservatrolls are making it out to be.

R93

Wow you’re delusional.

What gay culture?? Gen Z don’t “come out” because they all identify as gay/bi/trans. It’s a fad for them.

It IS a threat.

[quote]Wow you’re delusional.

No.

It’s ironically stupid because Peter Thiel is obviously anti-trans AND anti-gay, as with most conservatives.

The real sociopaths are the gay conservatives who are leaving their community in the dust and supporting anti-gay politicians and ideals, as well as supporting the movement against gay rights.

I see what these trolls are doing. Projection, deflection, and gaslighting are the conservatives’ ways.

I’m out. I do not support this shit. I will never vote for it. It’s bullshit that Democrats are tied to this garbage. Leave it to the state to decide. Put it on a proposal so I can gladly leave it blank.

R99

Conservatroll

[quote] It’s ironically stupid because Peter Thiel is obviously anti-trans AND anti-gay, as with most conservatives.

Some years ago, some right wing shill was boasting on DL how Peter Thiel is starting some gay organization for gays from gays, only for it to be run by a trans person which was in the original press release the shill didn't bother to read.

Gen Z never stops talking about Judy it seems

Gay culture is now young men twerking on Tik Tok.

I’ve never identified with gay culture because I’m deeply masculine

Dick and butt are the only things that interest me about gay men

Conservatives are a blight on humanity.

Nobody ever tried to make all men-who-fuck-men be a part of gay culture. There have always been guys who neglected to identify with more visible gays. We don't need to hear from these people (yeah the guys on the gay culture web site who strenuously object to being seen as GAY).....

Defensive fem hair dresser ^

More of a sweater queen actually.

I don’t need to ask anyone for help when it comes to my rights, and any conservatives I work with know where I stand. I don’t need to take my clothes off to stand up for myself either, yelling “No apologies! No regrets! Sex positive!!!”

[quote] Nobody ever tried to make all men-who-fuck-men be a part of gay culture. There have always been guys who neglected to identify with more visible gays. We don't need to hear from these people (yeah the guys on the gay culture web site who strenuously object to being seen as GAY).....

Men-who-fuck-men are gay or bi. They have to seek out other men to have sex with which would involve a culture of communication. They would have more in common with men who fuck other men because they may have also faced isolation, homophobia or self-loathing. They are part of gay culture too. Masculine and non-stereotypical gay men are not ashamed of themselves and they have been activists and scholars on homosexuality. They don't associate with flamboyancy or effeminacy because it's not who they are personality-wise. And thus they would get frustrated by the over-the-top caricatures that permeate throughout the mass media and have overtaken pride parades and gay websites just because it grabs attention.

R41 So sad that many gays dedicate their lives to sex when they don’t have the capacity to fulfill the purpose of having a sex at all - which is reproduction.

R102 I only hear Judy discussed on DL

R111 fuck off. The purpose of sex is to GET OFF. If I'd had the terrible luck to be born straight, I would've had a vasectomy as soon as I could afford it.

R112 Cool, wouldn’t it have been great if your dad came up with the vasectomy first? To say the purpose of sex is getting off is like saying the purpose of eating is to feel full and have a shit later…..

In the UK the concentration of the gay scene to major City centres (London, Manchester, Birmingham) destroyed small town gay bars in the late 1980's, when the gay districts began to become more mainstream nothing was left.

The gay culture has gone, but you'll find gay people in almost every 'straight' bar now.

If you’re looking for gay culture these days the likeliest place you’ll find it is in the nacreous layer of permacum on the gym sauna room floor.

To have a true culture, you must have a cuisine

Fish dicks

The media will always show caricatures and flamboyant queens. Its what sells

I was talking to someone today about how I the 90s gay bars would often play snippets from popular TV shows of movies with popular scenes, gay characters, etc. Usually it was comedy or scenes from popular campy films, but it was something the crowd enjoyed together. Today most of that couldn’t be shown, because someone would inevitably be offended. Also, everyone watches something different than on TV now, so there would be a lot of people who couldn’t relate.

Now everyone stands by themselves and stares at their phones in gay bars. Progress?

[quote] Masculine and non-stereotypical gay men are not ashamed of themselves and they have been activists and scholars on homosexuality. They don't associate with flamboyancy or effeminacy because it's not who they are personality-wise.

That's not the problem. The problem is when these uber-masculine gay men cry "He femmes, stop making ME look bad! Butch it up a little, will you?". Or the usual "I don't consider myself part of the Gay Community, because of the femmes!" self loathing bullshit.

Members of a community have a common interest. It can be sex, it can be supporting like minded people, or it can be a common enemy. And, you're not so extra special by acting all high almighty why you don't consider yourself part of a certain community, like the Gay Community. Either you are part of it, or you're not. You don't see idiots on straight message boards going on and on and on why they don't consider themselves straight and feel the need to share that with other straight guys for some reason.

Now that young guys don’t have to go out to bars and such to meet guys to fuck I don’t think there is much desire to have a shared culture, whatever that is, or to even have gay friends. For a majority it’s just bros who fuck other bros. The gay label is unfashionable. There will always be a subset of guys who like all the cultural stuff like Drag Race or diva singers, but that will become increasingly rare.

There will always be those who come together for a common - Liberal - good, like Gay / LGBT rights. And yes, there'll always be those who think they fare better by siding with the Conservatives who keep on pushing for anti gay / LGBT legislation. Because the Conservatives wouldn't dare to discriminate against their fellow gay suck-ups. Like, you know, exclude the Gay Log Cabin Republicans at any public event and convention. But sure, blame the Trans or the femmes for the Conservatives having to take action against the Gays.

I feel like this forum is getting more homophobic by the day. Sigh. We literally have a str8 creep in here attacking gay sex.

R123 Say that again

I take my gay culture cues from Lady Gaga.

Oh come on, the thread can't end with a wet fart like that!

Careful, R126. R124 will declare the wet fart a menstrualization landmark.

I was just complaining about Lady Gaga, she doesn't get to win.

Lady Gaga was only interesting to me in 2008 to 2010 and only because she was different from the other pop tarts visually and musically. Her first two albums were good and I liked she didn't rely on sex to sell like Rihanna, Fergie, Beyonce and others at the time. But funny enough, when she became obsessed with being a gay icon and obsessed with being taken seriously as an artist and an actress. Her novelty wore off and I became so uninterested in her. I never cared that she was a gay ally because by the point she debuted, there was already enough gay movies, gay literature and gay representation on TV that I didn't need to live vicariously through a female diva. In fact it took me a while to get why elder gays liked Judy Garland and Barbra Streisand so much and I never understood drag either until I educated myself about it.

Let’s end it by watching Linda’s film.

r11 IVF and other developments are changing that.Gay dads are becoming mainstream or at least semi mainstream in gay culture.

r131 meant for r111

r119 I miss the 1990s when I could walk into a gar bar pub or club in the UK and have so many eyes on me or my arse instead of indifference as people are glued to their smartphones...

I’m kind of of burned out on cyber connecting and how much of a hassle it all is. COVID has worn me out—I miss actually connecting with other men in person and being able to have sex without navigating apps, cameras, chats, photos, talking to people who aren’t really paying attention, etc . It just seems to stressful and time consuming. At least with bars and even places like bathhouses you just provided your ID and had fun with other guys. Now it’s all so complicated. What sucks is it’s either this or not connecting at all because of COVID. I could probably do this for six months, but after two years, I’m burned out trying to make it work. I’m also sick of gay blogs being nothing but trans bullshit and hair on fire politics.

[QUOTE] I’m gay but I get that transgenderism makes a lot of white gay men very rich, so that’s why they push it so much.

Who are these white gay men who push the trans, because I don't know anyone who does that. And how are they getting "very rich" off of this? Explain yourself.

God forbid us being nice to trans people, who have been part of our community for decades.

The only reason the trolls are going after trans is because they got their marching orders from conservative leaders.

R136 I think it’s more that the trans community has managed to usher in some unsavory aspects of queer culture that fulfill certain bigotries. For decades gay men have fought the stigma of pedophilia. Now it’s the trans community saying it’s a bad thing if parents don’t let their children change their gender and pronoun when the child hasn’t even hit puberty. Not to mention the fact that the gay community has always looked down at closeted/DL men, but when a young guy who is clearly gay just wants to call himself trans or non-binary instead, it’s almost the same thing as just denying your orientation altogether.

R137

Bullshit. The trolls are attacking everything trans people do. It’s not about “the kids”. That’s a concern trolling argument the conservatives always put up.

R138 I don’t think so. I think it’s really centralized around them forcing trans ideology on children — and not just as a matter of acceptance — and the obsession with forcing people to accept pronouns that defy the English language.

[quote] God forbid us being nice to trans people, who have been part of our community for decades.

Has it been LITERAL VIOLENCE for decades?

[quote] I think it’s more that the trans community has managed to usher in some unsavory aspects of queer culture that fulfill certain bigotries.

Just like when Gays "proved" to the bigots that we are recruiting children since we can't have children of our own? That sort of bullshit rhetoric?

Trans is a difficult subject, I'll admit that. Anybody who deals with the trans issue (child or adult) is faced with questions like, "why do you think you are born in the wrong body? Could it be just a phase? What triggered (this delusion)?". Remember in the past when kids struggled with being gay, being different, and it being dismissed as just being a phase or some devious gay show promoted something unsuitable for kids? Parents should care why their kids struggle with gender identity, parents should be allowed to listen to professional advice how to proceed while supporting their children on this journey. It should and never will be in the hands of internet trolls.

A lot of people who are eager to transition seem damaged emotionally from some type of trauma and have misconceptions of gender. Gender roles are reductive and create a lot of confusion and dissatisfaction. Young people's minds aren't fully developed, so they may see things in a black-and-white way. When people say it's phase it's not being dismissive particularly, it's that many adults used to be kids and teens and just see that acting out as adolescent behavior.

I think there definitely exist actual transsexual people. They're a tiny minority that suffer from intense dysphoria that they must live as the opposite sex. These usually do seem to be homosexual and were a part of the gay community. These transsexuals are actually discriminated against by the TRAs because they insist that you must have gender dysphoria to be transgender.

Being gay is instinctual as it's biologically determined in the womb. Hormones and epigenetics play a big part. Some homophobes here try to argue people are made gay by abuse or father abandonment and it doesn't hold weight. I do think there's androgynous features in many gay men and lesbians, I'm gay myself and was gender non-conforming as a kid. But I never really wanted to be a girl and grew out of it as soon as I reached puberty.

The gym.

r142, kids and adults need access to resources to clarify what their issues are about. What they don't need is internet trolls telling them what is right and what is wrong.

R144 Unfortunately, The US health industry is very profit driven. There's overdiagnosis and pushing of therapy and prescription drugs for profit. But little actual addressing of the source of trauma and fixing the issue. The US in general is a very sick society that prioritizes making money over being a living, breathing human being. We are taught to dope ourselves up and keep working nonstop instead of dealing with stress in a healthy manner. You can't be mentally well in a society run by corporations and sociopaths

r145, isn't that the same argument the antivaxxers use, big pharma can't be trusted?

R146 Vaccines are far different than transitioning people. And we know The US is a money driven country ruled by private interests. Look at the opioid crisis.

Now, anti-vaxxers are morons because vaccines have saved millions of lives and made conditions like smallpox and polio extremely rare. Their argument has no basis in science. Most children have to be vaccinated to go to school and college. So the aversion to the Covid shot was incredibly anti-scientific. Covid threatened the US economy and millions of lives, so tons of money was invested in those vaccines.

Now, aversion to the transitioning of children is completely based on science. Because we know children are not mentally developed enough to make such a decision. We also know gender roles have changed over time and gender nonconformists aren't new. But transitioning which involves artificially injecting hormones, cutting off of genitals and other physical procedures which are irreversible and can create a whole set of problems is a completely legitimate concern.

And no mental health expert can read the human mind. It's still very speculative and we are still discovering new things. Psychology in general is a newer field compared to astronomy and chemistry. Children are very flexible and they change fast. Once you reach your mid-20s your brain is fully developed and you get settled in your identity. Only adults should be able to transition. Children can be encouraged to not conform to gender roles and express themselves. But transitioning them isn't ethical. That is all I got.

[quote] But transitioning them isn't ethical.

That is your outsider point of view. You're no child, you're no parent of a child who struggles with it. You are not even part of the trained professional side.

Once upon a time, people left things to the professionals, now some people think they know better. Because they did their research, or whatever.

R148

[Quote] You're no child, you're no parent of a child who struggles with it. You are not even part of the trained professional side.

All adults were children. I'm gay and was a gay child who was gender nonconforming. I said things like "I want to be a girl." But I grew up just to be a cis gender gay man.

[Quote] Once upon a time, people left things to the professionals, now some people think they know better. Because they did their research, or whatever

You realize those same professional psychologists put gays and lesbians in institutions, under electroshock therapy, lobotomies, chemical castration and sterilization? Then what they did to autistic, bipolar or schizophrenic people. Also many people who were not even mentally ill but we're nonconformists got diagnosed with something.

Psychiatry is an ever-evolving field. It's a very new science. Misdiagnosis is not uncommon. The DSM is updated constantly. Transsexuality and gender dysphoria is a real thing. But I think it would be better to solve it as much as possible with transitioning being the last result.

[quote] But I think it would be better to solve it as much as possible with transitioning being the last result.

And that's what I believe is currently going on, case by case.

Gay culture apparently = stupid conversations about trans topics?

Culture schmulture.

I miss gay camp. I’m 58, and years ago, I met older gay men who indulged in it. This was back in the 1980s. Gay camp was still going strong back then.

I remember one elderly gay gentleman who admired Beatrice Lillie and sang “I’m a campfire girl…”

I welcome full assimilation and integration. Progress

Gay Culture has become so Hot Topic.

"Culture" is an ever changing thing. There was a gay culture in the 50's, different from the one in the 60's and so on until today. It's ever changing. People who talk about gay culture dying are probably referring to the culture they once knew and thought permanent, which it wasn't. In another 20 years what we look at gay culture today will have died and given way to a completely different form.

There is no more "culture" gay or otherwise.