The Mary Tyler Moore Show - I Have (Rhetorical) Questions

Rhoda had a terrible coke habit.

[quote]She was in her 30's and had a good job.

Didn't she go from job to job in the first seasons, sometimes not having any work?

[quote]Didn't she go from job to job in the first seasons, sometimes not having any work?

She was a window dresser for a while, and was even offered a good job in NYC which she turned down. But, yeah, she got fired once but was then re-hired. And she started her own business and was successful enough to pay Mary back AND add more money for a down payment on a new car (for Mary).

[quote]Yes, I"ve seen almost every episode at this point

The Datalounge condoles you.

I always wondered why Rhoda lived I such a weird space. But then I always wondered why Mary had two sets of tables and chairs but no bed.

Murray wouldn't have married Marie. She's too dippy for him (or for who he perceived himself to be).

All the fat jokes about Rhoda when she wasn't fat at all.

Good Lord. Let it go.

Schaal played a previous "mistake". Remember that Mary previously lived in a small town. Even the Twin Cities would have had a shallow dating pool for a single woman in her 30s----everyone makes dating mistakes and Howard was needier than the norm. He would have been difficult to get rid of in Roseburg (her home town). He was married to Valerie Harper during the run of the show which probably also influenced casting.

[quote]All the fat jokes about Rhoda when she wasn't fat at all.

Yes, that was odd.

I was stunned at how thin Mary was...I hadn't noticed that in prior viewings. She's really, really thin in the first couple of seasons. And it was casually mentioned in an episode that she was on a diet the week before. Unreal.

EPISODE #1 - Rhoda was planning on moving into Mary’s new apartment space, but Phyllis gave it to Mary instead. IIRC, Rhoda spent about half the show screaming: “This is MY apartment!!!” at the top of her lungs.

I guess she just decided to stay after that.

Mary!

The show was so unrealistic. As if Mary would be friends with the likes of Rhoda in real life! Just preposterous. Rhoda belonged in the Garment District.

^ That's funny, back in the 70s I worked in a big corporate office and I thought the office dynamics on the MTM show was spot on. All the men had a bottle of booze in their desks, there was always a few wackos in the group, but were accepted as part of the team. Lots of after work socializing with your co-workers. Many office affairs

I seriously doubt rents in Minneapolis were sky-high in the early '70s, so Rhoda's apartment only makes sense if it makes the character subservient to Mary, which was indeed the purpose. Remember, Rhoda flat-out stated several times that she wished she could be like Mary. Rhoda's position made Mary's more aspirational.

As far as MTM's appearance, well, she was a diabetic, which is one reason why she was so thin early on. She was also an alcoholic whose addiction grew worse with time, and it's especially noticeable by season 6, when she was suddenly puffy and bloated - a far cry from the ingenue Mary Richards started as.

Mary's hair was also thin, which is why she had those "falls", or long extensions, in the first 2 seasons. The bouffant wigs she wore in later seasons weren't nearly as flattering, and when she occasionally didn't wear them, her natural hair was wispy and thin.

OP, go do a bong hit and chill.

Phyllis fingered herself to a Rhoda/Mary scissoring fantasy scenario.

[quote]Why did they cast Richard Schaal and Jerry Van Dyke as Mary's love interests? They're very annoying actors, and Mary Richards was way out of their characters' league.

Richard Schaal was Valerie Harper's husband at the time, and MTM was good friends with Jerry van Dyke, so they both got those jobs through connections (although both men have good bodies, so it is not unlikely they would be attractive to Mary Richards). Schaal's character was someone whom Mary had dated only briefly before the show started, and whom she didn't like because he was so needy and obsessive.

I don't think window dressers made tons of money in those days especially. I would expect Rhoda made close to minimum wage, which in 1969 was pretty low, especially for women, and especially for people without a college degree like Rhoda.

Mary didn't make much either.

Yeah, the "new Mary" look was very noticeable in that show's Season 6. Except maybe the first 1 or 2 episodes, maybe they were filmed in advance before the cast and crew went on summer hiatus after Season 5 ended (?). Possibly they were trying to make Mary become more of a realistic working woman, not dolled up with the triple-lashed eyes, overly done makeup and hair, and different magazine-cover outfits switched about so frequently. In that 6th season, you notice Mary wearing that same ugly wig-hairstyle and repeating many of her same outfits in several shows...you know, like real human beings in the work world here on planet Earth. ;) And then suddenly in Season 7, she comes in with that helmet straightened hair look that remains pretty constant and the obvious eyes-life that has her popping bug-eyed through the whole season like she has one of Sue Ann Niven's soup ladles constantly up her behind.

▴"eyes-lift," sorry.

[quote] "The show was so unrealistic."

Speaking of which, I'd love to know why Lars & Phyllis rented an apartment, whem they could've afforded a house. He was a dermatologist. It makes no sense. I understand Phyllis and Lars managed the building...but I'm in season 3 (never seen it before), and no one has mentioned them actually OWNING the building.

So why did Lars & Phyllis rent an apartment when they could've purchased a house?

Lars and Phyilis owned the building--it was revealed at come point.

I always wondered why Mary hung around with Georgette. I guess she was the opposite of Rhoda and so it showed Mary had various friends. Plus Georgia Engel was a friend of MTM in real life.

During the run of the show, wasn’t MTM having marital problems? Maybe that was the cause of her descent into ugly. Her husband may have given up oversight of the show or she wasn’t taking his feedback seriously?

[quote] Speaking of which, I'd love to know why Lars & Phyllis rented an apartment, whem they could've afforded a house. He was a dermatologist.

We found out in the first episode of [italic]Phyllis[/italic] that Lars died penniless because he had squandered all of his money.

The Lindstroms' needs to take in lodgers was probably the first indication that his finances were not in order.

Lars was spending all his money on his affair with Sue Ann.

[quote] "Lars and Phyilis owned the building--it was revealed at come point."

Thanks, R23. I guess I haven't reached that point yet.

What odd, trivial, in fact stupid criticisms. It doesn't matter why Rhoda lived in a tiny apartment. She needed to live near Mary, so she could be dropping in constantly. You have to suspend your disbelief a little with any fictional creation. Mary never looked "matronly" or "descended into ugly." You must not quite know what those words mean, OP.

Take a Xanax R29

A Seconal would be more appropriate, given the topic of this thread

R29, I said she looked matronly in season 6 but I never said she "descended into ugly". I always thought MTM was very attractive and wondered why they tried to make her look unattractive in season 6.

Regarding Rhonda living in a tiny apartment, she could still live near Mary and have an apartment with a kitchen or at least room for a couch and chair. I don't know why the writers had her living in a bare-bones attic. She wasn't a college student, she was a 30 year old professional.

[quote] I don't know why the writers had her living in a bare-bones attic.

She was the Anne Frank of her generation.

Why did Mary always act like she wasn't in bed when anyone, usually Rhoda, knocked on her door late at night? She always got up, grabbed her robe, pretended she hadn't been sleeping and then offered to put coffee on. I would have just ignored the knocking so I could get enough sleep for work the next day. I understand being polite, but Rhoda, et. al. should have understood that Mary had to get up early...but since she didn't seem to, Mary needed to learn how to teach people not to come over late at night.

Mary put on weight in season 5 -- that's when the episode aired of her in the green dress that her hooker friend designed. She was about as heavy as she'd get in that episode. And in fact I just buzzed through 30 seconds of each episode from season 6 and the big difference that year was the dark circles under Mary's eyes -- and she looked a little puffy in the face, but she was actually fairly slim. But not as slim as in season 7...

Interesting R15 and R20. I didn't know MTM was wearing wigs.

She looks great in the hooker dress. Too bad she didn't stay that size.

Did the show ever explain why Mary moved to the new apartment?

If R29 finds it distasteful to obsess over mundane trivialities of old sitcoms, perhaps Datalounge is not the best website to peruse. That's what we do here, darling. So move along, toots.

As for the disconnect between apartment sizes and ownership, keep in mind that many of MTM's writers were New Yorkers with a skewed sense of rents and home ownership. They made the mistake of applying that sensibility to Midwestern, middle-class, affordable Minneapolis.

What single, twenty-something New Yorker moves alone to Minneapolis? That was perplexing.

Valerie Harper was married to Richard Schaal.

Shew wanted to get as far away from her mother as she could.

[quote]Did the show ever explain why Mary moved to the new apartment?

Mary was bored and needed a change in her life. In that episode one really wonders how an attractive young woman in that era has just stood still and not been interested marriage or children.

Anyway, the back story is apparently that it was difficult to get outside shots of (Mary Richards') Victorian house in Minneapolis because the owner was tired of people always showing up to take pictures of his house. He started putting political signs in the window ("Impeach Nixon") and the producers decided to move Mary out rather than deal with the disgruntled homeowner. (Why didn't they just use older footage?)

I thought the show lost a lot of its charm after she left her original apartment.

If Mary was disgusted with the price of meat, why did she fling it into her shopping cart? She wasn’t forced to pay those prices.

[quote] Murray wouldn't have married Marie. She's too dippy for him (or for who he perceived himself to be).

Murray, as a closeted gay man, would have married Marie. Marie would have been the type to marry a gay man and have children with him.

How come Mary lived in an apartment with no bathroom? Did she shit in her closet or just hold it until she got to work?

[quote]What single, twenty-something New Yorker moves alone to Minneapolis? That was perplexing.

I agree. I would think that Rhoda would have more success in her profession in NYC. She seemed to have a dead-end life going on there in Minneapolis. And when she visited NYC, it's like she had come to life describing it to Mary. Maybe New York was in too close proximity to her controlling mother.

R44 She was sexually frustrated. She had to listen to Murray's lame Ted Baxter insults and her boss was an asshole. She wasn't unhappy with the price of meat. She was just generally pissed with her life.

R45-If the MTM show went on the air 25 years later the writers would have just made Murray an OUT GAY man who had a platonic love for Mary.

Mary looked SO pretty and SO youthful the first two seasons. She looked like a 30 year old young person but by the third season she had a complete makeover that made her look 40ish for the rest of the shows run.

[quote] and it's especially noticeable by season 6, when she was suddenly puffy and bloated

Now I have to go check out some season 6 episodes to see what you're talking about!

Here is a cute promo for the MTM show just before it went on the air. She did look her best the first two seasons of the show.

Richard Schaal was married to Calerie Garper.

I’m leaving in that mistake.

In the early seasons of the show, didn't they sometimes show Mary's windows from the outside, usually in the evening with lights on? IIRC, the exterior shots of the building showed a large old framed home and Mary's apartment was on the second floor. Based on that, I assumed Rhoda lived upstairs in an attic apartment, and Phyllis and Lars owned the home and lived on the main floor. Or was that all my imagination?

Yeah, the exterior shots don't match what was supposed to have been the interior.

In the exterior shots, Mary's apartment is on top; nothing higher than her apartment. Rhoda's turret apartment would have been off to the side, on the same level.

In the interior shots, there's a stairway outside of Mary's apt. door that supposedly goes up to Rhoda's turret apartment.

The carpet didn’t match the drapes either.

The house is beautiful and in the city's best neighborhood. I used to walk by it all the time when I lived in Minneapolis.

Mary and Rhoda lived on the same level. The show did a lot of suspension of disbelief if they had Rhoda upstairs of Mary. Then again TV house are always wrong on the inside compared to the outside and that always really bugged me

Check out TV house window compared to real house window. So much suspension, so much disbelief...

[quote] "How come Mary lived in an apartment with no bathroom? Did she shit in her closet or just hold it until she got to work?"

The apartment had a bathroom, and it was accessed via the closet. It was situated beyond the closet, out of audience view. Mary's father asks about it specifically at 8:32, and she opens the closet/bathroom double doors. I would imagine there would be a second set of doors to separate the closet from the bathroom itself. It's an nteresting setup, that's for sure.

[quote] The apartment had a bathroom, and it was accessed via the closet.

But the bathroom would have extended out farther than the kitchen.

[quote] Why did Mary always act like she wasn't in bed when anyone, usually Rhoda, knocked on her door late at night? She always got up, grabbed her robe, pretended she hadn't been sleeping and then offered to put coffee on. I would have just ignored the knocking so I could get enough sleep for work the next day. I understand being polite, but Rhoda, et. al. should have understood that Mary had to get up early...but since she didn't seem to, Mary needed to learn how to teach people not to come over late at night.

Are you or have you ever been a "good girl" from Minnesota?

I didn't think so. So shut up: you don't understand.

Now check out Rhoda's tower apt. Make it all make sense...

[quote] "Mary's hair was also thin, which is why she had those "falls", or long extensions, in the first 2 seasons."

I recently read that they also put wigs on her to make Mary Richards even more different than Laura Petrie, her character in "The Dick Van Dyke Show".

[quote] What single, twenty-something New Yorker moves alone to Minneapolis? That was perplexing.

No, it's not.

Rhoda herself explained it: "I moved to Minneapolis, where it's cold. And I figured I'd keep better."

[quote] "But the bathroom would have extended out farther than the kitchen."

Correct, R61. But that's what they gave us, and expected audiences to suspend disbelief. As I said, it's an interesting setup. It's definitely more believable than "The Golden Girls" (which as we know was even changed from the pilot to the second episode...and was just as implausible).

Here's a plausible floor plan for Mary's 1st apartment.

The Brady house had the ugliest interior ever put on tv. All that wasted space and the kids crammed into that tiny family room!

That was a major issue when they renovated the Brady house, trying to cram that fucked-up interior into the real house

Here’s the floor plan of Mary’s first apt.

[quote] Here’s the floor plan of Mary’s first apt.

All that space and no room for a real bed?

^ It was a studio, were all of Mary's guests at her crummy parties suppose to sit on her bed?

For shame, r72.

Every gay man knows Mary's bed in the first apartment folded into a sofa.

Wow. In the preview at R52, I can understand why MTM cried at home the night of their first run-through and why her husband/producer called the writers and said, "Fix it". It got so much better after his phone call. This preview is awful. Ed Asner is overacting and he seems way too angry to be likable, and he and Mary have no chemistry.

This reminds me...I once read that when they did an audience test for the pilot, the audience didn't like Rhoda because they thought she was too mean. The writers then added a line where Bess says that "Aunt Rhoda" was really nice (or something) and that then warmed the audience up to her. Seems Ed Asner played it mean, too. Good thing the writers also softened up his character.

R59. Surprisingly, the 1970s decor is almost better than the current decor.

Also, regarding the preview at R52, I love the shots of Mary walking around outside in her various winter coats. She's so pretty. I love that look.

Mary's sofa bed was supposed to be charming for a single girl / woman in a new town with a new job. Also, the show might have been old-fashioned enough to not want to show a large, actual bed for a single woman. Rhoda's bed was actually a twin (single) bed.

In Mary's 2nd apartment, several years later, she had a bedroom with what looked like a queen-sized bed.

Mary really did seem to age 15 years between the opening season's fabulous Barbara Parkins flip and that stiff, ugly hairstyle she sported just a couple of years later. The change in the makeup job was not helpful, either.

Mary's look (teased hair, heavy eyeliner) seemed old-fashioned, even for the time. (Talking esp. about the early seasons.)

Was the white under her eyes a specific look or just bad camera/makeup work?

@r73, Huh? That's what I said in response to r71

- r72

if one was to believe that Phyllis and Lars and Bess lived on the ground floor and Mary was on the second then, Rhoda's apartment on the third floor or attic would be small based on the outside visual of the building.

Mary's move in the late seasons was terrible; such a bland apartment; the best part was her neighbor Paula played by Penny Marshall.

Murray bugged me for some reason and Ted was a little pathetic even for sitcom standards but otherwise this is the best sitcom ever.

I never understood the subservience of Rhoda. She was not fat and, I’m sorry, but was prettier than Mary. As far as the apartment, agreed. I’ve been watching on Decades and when Rhoda got a new job she said she was making more than Mary. Not sure how the house was set up, but they could’ve moved her to a bigger apartment.

Mary was also definitely not a goody two shoes, in fact she’s shady. She started dating her friend’s newly separated husband. She semi broke up her ex’s engagement and started dating him, then rejected his marriage proposal. Then she accepted a relationship where the guy basically cheated on her.

MTM looked 50s in the last few seasons. Definitely couldn’t pass for late 30s, even if she really was in her late 30s. I noticed a lot of 70s/80s sitcom stars guest starred like John Ritter, Mackenzie Phillips, Beth Howland 2x.

Oh yeah, Lou was an alcoholic. Surprised it was never addressed, at least I don’t think it was.

"I never understood the subservience of Rhoda. She was not fat and, I’m sorry, but was prettier than Mary. "

Maybe she was an actress playing the part of a dumpy Jewish girl neighbor with low self-esteem

I wonder where the concept came from?

[quote]Mary's move in the late seasons was terrible; such a bland apartment

Yeah, it was depressing. And such a contrast to the charming place she lived and which viewers obviously loved. Poor judgement on the writers' part; It didn't make the show better or open up more storylines. It actually made Mary's life less envious and made her character sort of generic.

I also though Rhoda was better-looking than Mary, for sure. I also dug her head scarves and her apartment. Now, that apartment would drive me nuts with all the colors.

"Oh yeah, Lou was an alcoholic. Surprised it was never addressed, at least I don’t think it was. "

Men at that time who drank a lot but still held down a good job weren't considered alcoholics

Mary's 2nd apartment was exactly the same as Bob Newhart's Chicago apartment. Anybody else notice that? It seemed like they used the exam same set.

Mary never looked at the camera or at the audience.

This episode talked about what they paid in rent (unbelievable if that’s accurate of rents back then). There was also another apartment downstairs that was never mention before or after.

Bob Newhart's Chicago apt. that he shared with Suzanne Pleshette.

I recently saw the Christmas episode during the first season. Mary has to work on Christmas Eve. Everyone left to be with their families, and Mary was the only one there except for a security guard in the lobby. She kills time and is very lonely. What's weird is, what, exactly, was she there for? If there was any breaking news, she didn't know how to write copy, she wasn't the newscaster and she certainly wasn't going to operate a camera. It didn't make sense. Then, Mr. Grant, Murray and Ted showed up late that night to surprise her and spend the rest of the evening with her. As if their wives (and kids) wouldn't mind that at all. "Oh, you're going out in this winter weather on Christmas Eve to spend the night with the new girl in the office? Okay, honey. I'll just read 'Twas the Night Before Christmas to the kids and put out the milk and cookies and then get 'Santa's' presents ready for the morning all by myself. Tell Mary I said hello and Merry Christmas!"

Mary's look in S6 and S7 was partly about her own health at the time, but also, women had some shitty hairstyles at the end of the late 70s and early 80s.

Beth Jarrett had a similar do.

^ Ah, there's that suspension of disbelief again

[quote]Mary never looked at the camera or at the audience.

She did it regularly.

I just had rhetorical questions about the Newhart show the other day, because the opening sequence doesn't really make a lot of sense to a local Chicago viewer.

He walks out of a Michigan Avenue office, but gets on the elevated train at what looks to be Chicago (many many many blocks away) which wouldn't take him anywhere near the building they show (which is on N Sheraton).

But yes, Bob and Emily's place and Mary's condo look very similar.

[quote] She did it regularly.

Proof?

Yeah, I agree with r97, r95.

I don't remember that ever happening either, so either put up or shut up.

[quote]Proof?

The show itself. Watch it and you'll see her do it. I noticed it mostly in the first two seasons, but I'm pretty sure she continues throughout the series but I've grown used to it now. I was surprised that she did that, especially because she was on a television series already and understood how to perform on camera before an audience.

Not to sidetrack, but I’ve also been watching The Dick Van Dyke Show for the first time. Don’t think there’s a thread. MTM was gorgeous in that, but I found Laura annoying with the constant whining and crying. Poor Rob. The sidekicks, especially Buddy, are also super annoying and unfunny.

Looking right at the audience...

^because she *had been* on a television series already

[quote] I found Laura annoying with the constant whining and crying.

Mary's character in MTM also did some of that whining and crying with quivering lip, etc. Ugh! Very annoying.

[quote] Proof?

[quote]The show itself.

Just as I thought.

Can't show the receipts. So pathetic.

[quote] Schaal's character was someone whom Mary had dated only briefly before the show started, and whom she didn't like because he was so needy and obsessive.

That was Howard Arnell. Remember she also dated Howard’s twin brother Paul Arnell, a real mensch who Mary’s friends weee very fond of.

And he played Chuckles the Clown as well! And a fourth character as a bit part. I find it hilarious when shoes recycle actors like that.

still hard to believe we lost Cloris, Ed, Gavin and Betty within a span of a year.

And they all lived really long lives.

R107 True. Even Valerie lived way longer than she was expected to with her form of cancer.

R99 She put her hand on her hip and looked away from the person she was with, waiting for the laugh. She was reacting to the other character's line. It was a mannerism of hers that apparently you have incorrectly assumed meant she was looking at the audience or camera. She would not have broken the fourth wall. All of us have also watched the show and I'm SURE we would have noticed that.

Nancy Walker was well cast and very funny, but I always thought the actor who played Rhoda's father was miscast.

R101 - that still is obviously of a curtain call; have you ever attended a sit-com taping?

Lars and Phyllis just managed the apartment complex. They didn't own it.

(sort of unrealistic I guess for a doctor but when they eventually show Phyllis' apartment it is much much nicer than the others.)

Hard to believe but back then many doctors were not rich. Growing up, my MD lived in a little cape cod house and his office was in the house. That was not unusual. You guys are applying a lot of standards from today on a show from 50 years ago.

thanks r113 good to know

I always wondered why Phyllis didn't demand a house.

There is that line too where she says how dermatologitsts are the first to get hit in a recession.

"if people need brain surgery no matter how trivial they find the money, if they have a rash they just scratch until times get better."

We find out Mary was likely from a wealthy family (her dad was a cardiologist), she was popular in school, class president, cheerleader, prom queen, and she was in a sorority in college. But we see in her character someone who is tongue-tied, often tentative and unsure of herself, lets people take advantage of her, super down-to-earth, sweet and without vanity, and who finds her niche within a group of rather unhappy people at a low-rent television station. It doesn't match up with her background. The writers seem to have written a "perfect" background for Mary in order to humorously contrast her life with Rhoda's, but her background didn't really fit her character within the series. They were a bit myopic and one-dimensional in their writing about her at first.

R114 You're welcome. Not only that, but the way people lived was pretty differentIt's hard to explain, but I don't think people needed or wanted as much. MIddle class people didn't live in McMansions. Many more houses were one-income and had one car. There weren't as many job opportunities for women. I don't think people were as ambitious but they possibly were more contented.

R115- They were upper middle class not wealthy.

Rhoda was a little chunky when the show began.

"she was popular in school, class president, cheerleader, prom queen, and she was in a sorority in college. "

Oh, please, she was used goods and was run out of town on a rail for all the shame she brought down upon her family

Threads like these are why I can't quit the DL!

I kind of hated Edie for leaving Mr. Grant. He seemed to really love her and their daughters and grandkids. It would have made some sense if she said she couldn't handle his drinking or something tangible, but no, she just wanted to be alone and enjoy time with herself. Which, okay, but then she got married not long after. That storyline was Kind of dark and meaningless.

R115. Professionally, women often had to take what they could get during that time. If she had chosen to marry well, her background might have set her up for a charmed life. For a woman who decided to remain single, I’m not sure the outcome is too surprising. Looking at the series now it is surprising that a series at that time depicted a woman well in her 30s as a normal and likeable human being. There were earlier series featuring single women, but they were generally much younger.

[quote]He started putting political signs in the window ("Impeach Nixon") and the producers decided to move Mary out rather than deal with the disgruntled homeowner. (Why didn't they just use older footage?)

They'd probably been using the original film shots over and over and they had degraded in quality, and they didn't have any good quality dubbed copies.

They must have wanted to change the apartment for other reasons because they simply could have done without external transitional cuts by season 6, they weren't needed.

Edie divorcing Lou seemed like a cynical ploy to be able to introduce new plots with Lou dating. It was unnecessary and it didn't make sense, I agree completely with you r121.

[quote]Rhoda was a little chunky when the show began.

I remember in the episode where she reveals her supposedly massive weight loss she says she's lost something like 15 pounds, which I think was probably an exaggeration for the show. She had a little bit of a stomach on her, maybe 8-10 lbs "overweight" but ONLY because she was on film.

I just found an article online saying Harper got up to 150 lbs but I don't think that was true at all. They were putting her in caftans and ponchos to make her look bigger.

R125 yes, they dressed her fat. That is not the jawline of a heavy woman.

@r121 and r124, It was the 70s, women's lib, everyone was "finding themselves", whatever that meant. Women left their husbands for no apparent reason. Just look at our beloved Ann Romano who picked-up and left studly Joseph Campanella for the glitz of Indianapolis and the arms of pudgy David (hold me, David)

Talk about suspension of disbelief

And Edie has the gall to invite Lou to the wedding.

[quote] Mary needed to learn how to teach people not to come over late at night.

Mary woke up thinking it was some strange guy returning for a dirty bootie call

[quote] Murray wouldn't have married Marie. She's too dippy for him (or for who he perceived himself to be).

Not to mention that Marie didn't have a penis. I don't know how that wasn't a dealbreaker for Murray.

That was MTM's biggest mistake not letting Murray be Gay as he was written. Think of the great storylines

[quote] Did the show ever explain why Mary moved to the new apartment?

Don't recall how much of it was covered on MTM, but around the 5th season Cloris Leachman left for her own spin-off. Her TV husband Lars had died and presumably Phyllis sold the house before moving with Bess to San Francisco. I assume the new owners didn't want to be landlords or jacked up the rent. Not to mention Mary was pushing 40 and probably wanted a God damn bedroom already. A pull out sofa bed would've been a pain in the ass for all those years and are terribly uncomfortable.

[quote] She [Rhoda] was the Anne Frank of her generation.

R33 wins the thread. LOL

Did she really offer coffee in the middle of the night.?

[quote] What single, twenty-something New Yorker moves alone to Minneapolis? That was perplexing.

This was explained during the opening song for the "Rhoda" spin-off: It was cold, and she thought she'd keep better.

Funny line.

[quote] If Mary was disgusted with the price of meat, why did she fling it into her shopping cart? She wasn’t forced to pay those prices.

Because dear, Mary was a passive aggressive bitch.

"Did she really offer coffee in the middle of the night.? "

Only when she was out of coke. Ah, the 70s

[quote] How come Mary lived in an apartment with no bathroom? Did she shit in her closet or just hold it until she got to work?

The bathroom was off-camera, stage right behind the kitchen. You had to pass through her walk in closet to get to it.

If she was truly drinking during the series, she must have been eating next to nothing. She was very thin.

R115: She's from small town gentry. I had an aunt who grew-up in a small Illinois town--her father was president of the bank, she was in class activities, went to college, etc. That didn't keep her from having insecurities. And as she put it, in a small town you can't chose your friends. Coming to Minneapolis would have exposed all kinds of insecurities because she was competing in a much bigger pond where the rules weren't so obvious.

The writers probably toyed with the idea of making Lou and Mary a couple. The network probably wanted that as they always want stuff like that. Network execs also like weddings and babies. They tried to give Newhart children on his original sitcom---he refused and they had an adoption episode that closed the door on that. Edie's divorcing him was linked to the women's movement and and she was made a modern divrcee who attempted friendship with an ex rather than making her a shrew.

[R132], speaking of Bess. I ran into Lisa Gerritsen on the Western Washington University campus in Bellingham. I think it was September 1979. I saw her, and she recognized a friend and said, "Hello, weirdo." She was standing less than five feet from me. I said, "Lisa Gerritsen?" She looked at me as though I was pointing a loaded automatic rifle at her.

I haven't seen the show for a while, but was Mary Richards supposed to be well into her 30s, or was that just Mary Tyler Moore? She looked and acted young. Back then we didn't really pay as much attention the actors' ages, there was no internet and and it was much less easy to have access to actos' personal info, such as birth date, religion, background, etc.

R52 - In that promo and for the first or so, she had the same hair style as Barbara Perkins (Valley of the Dolls) and Alexandria Isles (Dark Shadows). I guess it was a look for that time period.

She was supposed to be 30 when the show started. MTM was a few years past that already. Considering her horrible plastic surgery in later life, I would imagine that she influenced the harder look in later seasons as some nutty attempt at looking young. The heavy eye shadow is much like SJP in the SATC reboot, which I suspect is meant to distract from her wrinkles and the age spots on her hands.

Very insightful, R140.

I think people are reading way too much into her look changing over the seasons. Styles changed, and also, back then (unlike now) a woman who was supposed to be over 35 would not have been waering younger fashions or hairstyles. There was a stigma about trying to dress too young that doesn't seem to exist any more.

^ It really should... Looking at you, Madonna

R146, I thought her wardrobe was fine throughout the series. It was the sudden lack of eye makeup and the sudden matronly hairstyle that distracts me during season 6.

The eye makeup changed some because false eyelashes were very much out of style by the late 1970s, but I notice in clips of the episode where Edie gets married that MTM's false eyelashes are back, at least for that episode.

MTM was also having problems controlling her diabetes around that time, if I recall, which I'm sure affected her appearance.

Don't we know that Rhoda lived upstairs from Mary because after they had their most serious fight, the big reunion took place with Rhoda running into Mary as Rhoda was taking a trash bag down the steps.

Rhoda had blurted out that Mary's college education had not been as complete as Mary had said it had been. Rhoda mentioned it inside the pressroom with everybody there.

That's right, R150. Also, when Mary and that night school professor briefly reunited and Mary and him were locked out of her apartment, Rhoda came home with a date and they went *upstairs* to Rhoda's hovel, then Mary and her date sat on the stairs and talked.

Mary and he, I should say.

For love of god, those obsessing about Rhoda's apartment are missing few key points.

Phyliss's house was not built as multifamily, she and Lars basically converted various rooms into apartments. This was and still is rather common, but when you convert a private home into apartments not all rooms are created equal.

MTM lucked out in getting a larger unit that had large enough main room that a kitchen area could be carved out, but also a pretty nice sized bathroom. It basically was a very large studio apartment.

Rhoda got the attic apartment which explains everything. While is isn't usual for attics to have bathroom facilities along with hot and cold running water and a sink, it is possible. That or if someone did live in the attic they went down to use bathroom on second floor. In large homes designed with servants in mind there would have been back stairs that went from basement up to attic if that was to be where servants slept

There were actually two different houses used for exteriors. While the first was the famous Lake of the Isles house we all know, the second one was, apparently, a miniature dollhouse. I'm not kidding. There's some documentary or website that discusses this. And if you compare the two exterior shots, the houses look nothing alike.

Mary's high-rise is today public housing on par with Cabrini-Green. And yes, that boxy, sterile set was an atrocity. The writers have said that - with Mary promoted to show producer - they wanted to visually illustrate that she was making more money but, the show lost a lot of its charm without that iconic apartment. They should have put some thought into the set design and had her move into a "Frasier"-esque place with its own unique style, but they didn't.

That sounds so cozy and secure to live in a large Victorian house with separate living quarters but still the same house as your good friends.

Owner's of first house used for exterior shots were that fed up with their new fame, or rather that of their home. People forever stopping, gawking, taking pictures, wandering about the property, and worse actually ringing doorbell asking for tours or whatever.

In the end they decided enough was enough and pulled their house out of MTM show if you will.

Why did Mary throw her hat up in the air in the beginning of each show? Wasn't she afraid of making a fool of herself....hence, the old lady in the background, giving her a dirty look?

I think the new apartment was a jumping the shark moment of the show. I loved her Victorian apartment.

“I was in front of a department and they said: ‘Oh! Look, here, run out into that intersection and take your hat — which I had in my hand — and throw it in the air, as if this is the happiest moment of your life,’ ” she recalled. “And I did, and that was it.”

Even as a young kid I could tell the move to the new boring/ugly apartment sucked the life out of the show and Mary herself. The energy was totally different.

R127- Not to mention the fact that Joseph Campanella had TOTAL BDF.

I can just tell he was VERY well hung.

I'm quite enjoying this thread. Only on DL can one find this type of topic or analysis. A recent "Agnes Moorehead sings..." with the guy from Mad Men was yet another example of content only available on DL.

R74- If you watch the very early episodes of All In The Family from 1971 Archie is MUCH nastier and hateful then he was a year later on the show and Edith was less dingbatty and more of just a drip and less sympathetic. They were perhaps too realistic. The show was a comedy not a drama. They toned down his nastiness and hate and made Edith talk in that high voice but it made both characters more likeable and palatable.

I didn't love Mary's 2nd apartment but it made sense; she wanted a larger space but wasn't going to buy a house or move further out into the suburbs. When that development, Cedar Square West (now Riverside Plaza), opened in 1973 it was supposed to usher in a new "urban village." Unfortunately that never materialized and the complex eventually fell victim to social ills that plagued most large housing towers in declining US cities; the colorful Corbusier-esque panels on the exterior couldn't mask the rest of the ugly concrete and its pedestrian-unfriendly location sandwiched between two major highways. To expect a Frasier-like apartment is a bit ridiculous; how many other high-rise condo buildings were there in 1970s Minneapolis? Mary might have "made it" after all but she was still fairly unsophisticated.

Edith was a dingbat, but she was always smarter than Archie.

R164, the exterior shots of Mary's apartment weren't the issue - the set was. It appeared very spartan and utilitarian when it didn't have to. Mary seemed to have some decorating sensibility with her Victorian studio and it should have been applied to the high-rise.

It wasn't and fans to this day lament that.

And yes, this is the kind of ridiculous, picayune disagreement that can only be found on DL.

The Riverside Towers are now occupied almost 100 percent by Somali folks. Some locals refer to the area around it as Little Mogadishu. They did refurbish the exteriors a couple years ago and they don’t look as decrepit as they did for a while, I actually think they are architecturally interesting.

The thing that always bugs me when I watch MTM is the way that all her older male co-workers would show up unannounced at Mary’s apartment, usually just knocking on her door late at night. I know it was just for storytelling purposes but to me it’s a bit creepy.

R167- It's as if they all wanted to bang Mary- even GAY Murray Slauter.

[quote] Mary never looked at the camera or at the audience. She did it regularly.

Proud graduate of the Norman Fell School of Camera Acting

As mentioned above, thanks, Mary was a small town girl who moved to the city and was a bit behind in fashion, sweet and inexperienced. The false eye lashes were indeed on way out...it worked well with her backstory and being sweet ingenue facing salty, seen it all newsmen environment.

The white concealer was a sign of the times, very 70s along with frosted hair and lipstick. Also, this was a time before credit...people would save for big purchases, vacation and Christmas savings accounts. It’s doubtful a single woman would qualify for a mortgage. This was also the time of freebies and stickers when you bought groceries, opened bank account etc.

People were more careful with money and there more inducements to spend when people were more financially wary, especially habits borne from the depression. So different from today, also the inflation was high, especially reflected in the gas and meat prices. I think when Mary tossed it in her cart it shows what was going on and people feeling pressed and powerless. Also, she’s a go along don’t cause a fuss lady. That’s why it was so funny when she had to muster up courage and be outspoken when it was not her nature nor upbringing.

In the preview above I think the camera pulled back from the actors faces, sorry don’t know the term, works SO much better for this show!

R169- He would often stare at the camera on Three's Company.

He thought Jack Tripper was queer on Three's Company and would constantly make homophobic remarks about him- yet he could RARELY get it up to bang Mrs. Roper. He looked like a CLOSET CASE himself.

The series begins again this afternoon on Decades, with season one episodes one and two

Fair enough R166 but you can't take a Victorian decorating sensibility and translate it to a modernist/brutalist high-rise. That was the whole promise of modernism: get rid of all the knick-knacks and clutter and personality and focus on space and white walls instead. The sparsely decorated set signified Mary's transition from wide-eyed ingenue to "serious" news professional.

People saved for Christmas, vacations and big purchases. Remember the Christmas Clubs at the banks? I don't know if they exist anymore.

R173, it didn't translate on camera. The set went from warm and cozy to stark and empty. And that's not why viewers tuned in to MTM.

[quote] Oh, please, she was used goods and was run out of town on a rail for all the shame she brought down upon her family

That’s not the way she tells it. She even had a dark haired guy making drunk advances during her going away party.

And I hate that in that opening shot, when she is first introduced to us, that she didn’t brush her hair.

[quote] it didn't translate on camera. The set went from warm and cozy to stark and empty. And that's not why viewers tuned in to MTM.

I doubt viewers watched MTM for the sets.

I liked the show and the characters...but I also liked her charming and cozy Victorian apartment. It was part of my fantasy of living in a place like that.

[quote] The writers probably toyed with the idea of making Lou and Mary a couple.

They certainly toyed with the idea of making Mary and Murray a couple. Remember the episode where Mary had to go and explain to the Carol Brady reject actress that she wasn’t riding Murray like a horse? And then reject Carol Brady got all snippy about having to do an all white puzzle because Murray wasn’t giving it to her, when the entire audience knew he was the star of every tea room in the area and only fancied Mary for her ability to attract the attention of men.

Her backstory, earlier footage and theme song may make more sense when you consider Mary the character was originally written as a newly divorced woman making a fresh brave start. Which was major as MTM had become famous as Laura Petrie, a perfect suburban mother and housewife. They changed it to avoid controversy or turning off viewers. was this after Alice doesn’t live here anymore?

The first lead actress to play a divorced woman in a sitcom was DL fave Vivian Vance, on The Lucy Show.

Four years before Alice… won Ellen Burstyn her oscar

To put things into perspective MTM Show started while That Girl was still running.

In That Girl, Marlo Thomas tries to do the single career girl in a big city, but it really falls flat because Marlo allowed the writers to make her whiny and a petulant child. In an episode that ran just months before MTM debuted, That Girl is so afraid of a mouse in her apartment that she calls up her boyfriend and makes him come over.

That Girl had the clothes and the fun 1960s Manhattan background, but Mary had the modern 1970s empowered career girl story perfected.

[quote]I would expect Rhoda made close to minimum wage, which in 1969 was pretty low, especially for women, and especially for people without a college degree like Rhoda.

A college degree meant BUPKIS for any woman not in the professions like law, MD, etc. Rhoda could certainly afford a better apartment than that attic. She made more money than Mary.

You don't think the sets have anything do with a show's appeal, R177?

Have you read half the comments on this thread? Or any "Frasier" thread? Fans remember and discuss sets long after it's gone off the air.

A TV series invites you into its world and the desire to become part of it for even 24 minutes is what makes or breaks a show.

I understand that they were going for realism but they could have taken a few liberties with the apartment set to make it more inviting. The Bob Newhart Show set was basically a big concrete apartment building but the set was very nice. It was like they made a cheaper, smaller, uglier version of that for Mary.

Was Mary Tyler Moore the first woman to take over a role written for a man?

In 1980, she replaced Tom Conti in the Broadway production of Whose Life Is It Anyway.

I still remember the commercial. The voiceover said “Whose life is it, anyway” and Mary said, “Mine!”

R33 has been placed on a 2 week suspension from The View & has announced his engagement Yo Cheryl Hines.

R183. So true about That Girl. I loved that show, too...but because of her clothes and her life in Manhattan. Ann Marie was always too excitable, fast talking and hysterical for a so-called "independent" woman on her own. She always had to depend on Donald or her daddy to help her out. The mouse episode was really ridiculous. It's funny....how the shows I really loved back during their original run, have become annoying to me now. Some of the characters of these shows aren't funny to me anymore and have me SMH.

Lots of roles were originally intended for the other gender, R187. For instance, the Jane Fonda role in The China Syndrome was originally for Richard Dreyfus.

R185 Yes and as a matter of fact, I studied set design in college and did set design and/or set dressing for some local theater (sometimes I was even paid) ... but no, I don't think the audience in general is that concerned with sets. Artistic and gay people, yeah. (And for the record, I didn't really like Mary's apartment in Phyllis's house. I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.)

[quote]In That Girl, Marlo Thomas tries to do the single career girl in a big city, but it really falls flat because Marlo allowed the writers to make her whiny and a petulant child. In an episode that ran just months before MTM debuted, That Girl is so afraid of a mouse in her apartment that she calls up her boyfriend and makes him come over.

[quote]That Girl had the clothes and the fun 1960s Manhattan background, but Mary had the modern 1970s empowered career girl story perfected.

But I don't understand why two single career girls in the big city can't be two different people. Do all single career girls have to be depicted as empowered? Can't one be afraid of mice and call her boyfriend, and another not do that?

Well, obviously, I respectfully disagree, R191.

Take a show like TAXI - well-done, occasionally brilliant, critically lauded in its time. And yet it can't be considered iconic.

Much of that same creative team went on to produce CHEERS, which shares all those same qualities and is still watched today.

The difference? CHEERS invited you into a warm, cozy bar, whereas TAXI had that cold cement garage. Where would you prefer to spend half an hour?

If you think that's a stretch, know that even the Charles brother and James Burrows - creators of both shows - said the same thing.

Sets do matter.

R185 Maybe I'm wrong about sets. I think I originally said, people don't watch TV shows for the sets, which I meant. But if a set is really inappropriate, for ex., of course people will notice. I mean, people didn't watch I Love Lucy for the set, that's sort of what I mean. But when I saw Mary's new apartment (when it originally aired) I thought it was bad, and actually I remember my mom thought it was bad. I guess I'm just saying maybe this thread is placing an OVER emphasis on the importance of the set, to the show. Though I'm enjoying the discussion a lot.

R192 OMG no one said SETS DON'T MATTER. I love set design, of course it matters. But otoh I love The Honeymooners and so did millions of people, and the set didn't "invite you in". I can think of many shows where the set was not inviting, cozy or warm - Barney Miller, Night Court - so you can't generalize sets always need to be inviting.

[quote]But when I saw Mary's new apartment (when it originally aired) I thought it was bad

I meant: in the high rise.

Everybody loved Mary's spacious studio apt when the show came out, and everyone hated the apt in the high rise.

A character can be whiny and crying and still be funny. to me that is the mark of a good comic actor if they are funny when they cry. Mary is a good example. I always found Valerie Harper annoying as hell as Rhoda and was glad when she left. She seemed to me to overdo the New York thing.

^ Not from New York

Valerie wasn't Jewish and she was from Rockland County (NY) if that makes a difference.

As for Ann Marie vs Mary it was apples and oranges. Each actress played to her strengths. But it gets annoying how if you depict a single woman she has to be "empowered" in EVERY show. This is not real life. I was enjoying Stranger Things until the 3rd season - it had to be all about how Nancy has to feel empowered, and Wonder Woman is a role model and boys are assholes. In 1984! Real people come in all types.

R199, Valerie was born in Rockland. She grew up in New Jersey.

R200 Okay, and Rhoda was from Brooklyn.

Rhoda was from the Bronx.

Jane Fonda's role in Klute was also originally intended for Richard Dreyfuss.

R202 Thanks, I knew I got that wrong.

[quote] But I don't understand why two single career girls in the big city can't be two different people.

I was speaking more towards cultural zeitgeist. That Girl seemed a throwback to 1950s while MTM seemed more forward looking. These shows were appearing simultaneously yet seemed very different in tone.

R205 Maybe because That Girl ran from 1966 to 1971, and MTM ran from 1970 to 1977. Women's lib was not gaining much ground until the 70s. Also, Anne was an aspiring actress, a different type than an aspiring news writer-producer. And she had a steady boyfriend.

I didn't like Mary's second apartment. This was well before Tasteful Friends on Datalounge, obviously, but it offended my gayling sensibilities. At the time of the show, my Mom and I were living in a small apartment in a huge complex, where every apartment was identical (or a mirror image). Mary's new apartment for the last couple of seasons seemed just like that - cramped and "cookie cutter." He first apartment was much larger, at least the main room was, in a building that had character (and characters). Her second apartment seemed like a big step down. I guess she really didn't Make It After All.

R201 = not from ANY part of NYC

You all have to remember that "Here's Lucy " was also running at the same time and we all know what a snappy , liberated young gal our Lucy was

[quote]Women's lib was not gaining much ground until the 70s.

"Women's Lib" was not a thing until 1970. That's when it got big publicity and the number of "libbers" escalated. Any protest stuff before 1970 rarely got press, not many ordinary people knew about it.

Someone should start a thread on TV show sets we love.

My first solo apartment was very much like Mary's studio. It wasn't in a converted Victorian house, but a modern NYC highrise on 57th Street. It had the conversation pit/sunken living room with built in shelving. The galley kitchen had the half-wall and pass-through with shutters, and you could enter the kitchen from either side. The owner put up a wall between the kitchen and sunken living room so the kitchen wasn't visible from the main living area, and created a private nook for a bed. I had a table and chairs, a chest of drawers and my desk/computer on the landing in front of the window, one step up from the sunken living room. My bathroom was to the right of the front door, there was a sort of hallway with two large floor to ceiling closets on either side and led to the bathroom. It wasn't until several years later that I started watching MTM reruns on Nick at Night that I realized the similarities, and wondered how much of an influence that must have had on my little gay psyche. It was the only TV apartment I liked, along with Uncle Bill's from Family Affair which was way out of my price range.

So let me see if I have this straight:

Mary moved from a charming Victorian studio, with kooky but lovable neighbors, to a drab, unremarkable Somali housing project?

Gurl, you might just make it after all!

[quote] it offended my gayling sensibilities.

MARY!

MARY!

MARY!

MARY!

MARY!

R208 Oh, no! Not from New York City! What shall I do? Live my meagre flyover life without cockroaches or rats, I guess.

Look, Mary HAD to move. Rhoda Got spun off and so did Phyllis. Unless she moved into another charming studio apartment with kooky neighbors. But she was some kind of producer or whatever, and she probably didn't want to keep sleeping on a day bed.

There had been single career women on tv before--Our Miss Brooks and Ann Sothern come to mind, as well as Sally Rogers on the Van Dyke show.. Ann Marie was saddled with a bf from day one. Even Ann Sothern didn't have that, although she had a roommate. People were living together and relationships were changing in the latter half of the 60s. Ann Marie never takes LSD or even smokes dope, and never spends the night with Donald---that was totally not what was happening then. Mary was much more of her time and her age group---at 30 and single. She didn't have a steady bf and although no one was hit over the head with this, she occasionally did spend the night with someone who wasn't a steady.

MTM was lucky to play two parts that were of her time. Laura Petrie was way more contemporary than other sitcom mom/wives in her time. She dressed like an actual housewife and they lived in a suburb, not some fictional small town in the middle of nowhere. Mary Richards was of her time---she didn't have to move to NYC or LA (the most common settings for tv shows that weren't in mythical small towns) to be a single career woman which was the standard for media depictions of single women before then. It was possible and no longer unusual for someone to go a place like Minneapolis to make it on their own.

R96, I assume he either took the Evanston Express (as it was then called) or the Ravenswood (ditto) and transferred to the Red Line (can't remember what it was called), getting off somewhere around Bryn Mawr or Granville. Do you know exactly which building he lived in on Sheridan?

The Howard. It was called the Howard line (the other end named for either the Dan Ryan or another endpoint I can't recall).

LOL, R217. I know the building - but when I went to search the address to find a photo this article popped up.

I remembered seeing it since my friends lived about a block north and realizing, "oh! that's it!"

But even so, they show the building from a north traveling south perspective. LOL

The Brown Line, or Ravenswood, is now referred to as Kimball (its end stop) and the Red Line is Howard (its end stop, though the Evanston Purple Line goes farther north).

I read a book recently that I think is called Rock Me On The Water - about how one year, 1974, in Los Angeles, changed film, music, TV, etc. One thing that bugged me was that the author said things like MTM was the first single career woman on TV, and Freddie Prinze was the first hispanic TV lead. Like Even Arden and Ann Sothern - and Desi Arnaz - had never existed. It was really weird.

I used to know the building. It's above Bryn Mawr on Sheridan (5901 Sheridan). It looks as though he gets on at a commuter rail stop, gets off at the Mart and then his walks seems to be from the Metra at what is now the State of Illinois building, crossing bridges to an office at State and Grand. It would have been the Howard-Jackson Park in those days and he would simply have gotten on in Edgewater at Thorndale and off at Grand.

According to Newhart himself, it's supposed to be the Ravenswood L even though that makes no sense form what we see (and he knows that).

LA wasn't changing anything. In fact it's day on tv had past by 1974. Shows were being set in NYC again and in identifiable flyover places like Minneapolis.

R222 the article at R219 summarizes it

"It was possible and no longer unusual for someone to go a place like Minneapolis to make it on their own. "

Some of us preferred Indianapolis... God only knows why

I liked Mary's 2nd apartment (interior). The exterior shots were dismal and depressing, though (2nd apt.).

I especially liked the dark blue couch / sofa. I think it had white piping. Not practical, I guess.

We went to Seattle

MTM's real son, Rich, appeared briefly (no lines, though) in one of the first few shows when she visited another newsroom.

As long as Edie was single, fans would have hoped that she and Lou got back together.

Priscilla Morril died young at 67.

She only did 5 episodes of MTM but she was memorable.

They couldn't have Murray get divorced. Mary would have had to have called Human Resources on him eventually.

[quote] I always wondered why Mary hung around with Georgette.

She was pure Aryan stock. We approve.

[quote] Mary would have had to have called Human Resources on him eventually.

Back then, it was called Personnel and they didn’t handle employee sex pest issues.

Thanks, R219! That article is quite funny.

[quote]At this point, any reasonable Chicagoan might think Newhart is lost. But he presses on.

I hated the Georgette character, but the fans probably like it. Mary had lost all her funny friends (Rhoda & Phyllis) to spin-offs. She gained Sue Ann Niven (Happy Homemaker) as a female work associate, but Georgette was a dud, IMO.

But Mary didn’t stay in Minneapolis. She had NYC in her sights all along.

Georgette would be the first to be voted off the island, with Murray quickly following.

It was before, r180.

[quote] Georgette would be the first to be voted off the island, with Murray quickly following.

I think Phyllis would be the first voted off the island. Georgette was annoying but Phyllis was neurotic.

Let us not forget that both "That Girl" and Mary Richards got to bang the oddly and extremely sexy Ted Bessell.

In the Fall Preview clip, they show Mary being given a send-off from her former job. Was that ever in an episode? Looks interesting but then I guess they would have had to develop some quick storyline on why she was leaving and some personality to one or two of her supporting players.

[quote] Let us not forget that both "That Girl" and Mary Richards got to bang the oddly and extremely sexy Ted Bessell.

Everybody knows Don Hollinger was always in the Ramble. Ann Marie wasn’t giving him bupkiss. She was television’s first cock tease.

Was Suddenly Susan the successor to the MTM show?

R153...For the love of God, Phyllis and Lars did not own the building.

Murphy Brown billed itself a successor to MTM, but Miles and Corky seemed more like Mary Richards and Murphy was the Lou Grant. No Rhoda or Phyllis, though. 30 Rock also referenced MTM, but I think it was more like a successful version of the Mary Tyler Moore hour from 1979, which was supposed to be a behind the scenes sitcom about putting on a weekly variety show. 30 Rock wisely shied away from showing too many sketches from TGS.

Mary never broke the fourth wall. There is a short clip within the opening sequence starting in season 2 I believe that is an outtake where both she and Phyllis break the fourth wall. That is the only time, aside from the curtain call after the last show.

There was a curtain call after the last show? I don’t think they ever showed it in reruns.

[quote] It wasn't in a converted Victorian house, but a modern NYC highrise on 57th Street.

WEST 57th Street? New Yorkers always identify the east or west location. Like your 212 though, R212.

I'm sure I saw an episode in which it was revealed that Lars and Phyllis did indeed own the building. Mary was pissed because all this time Phyllis had lied about just managing the building and had talked about "the owners" telling her to raise the rent, etc. Of course Phyllis had been lying because she wanted to avoid the consequences of being her friend's landlord and therefore raising her rent or not fixing something in a timely fashion, etc. Which was very Phyllis.

I think there's a lot of confusion about this topic because if you didn't happen to see that episode (and it wasn't the main plot of the episode), you would never know as I don't think it was ever mentioned again.

I thought Phyllis and Lars only MANAGED the building.

If the Mary Tyler Moore show was rebooted for 2022:

Mary = transsexual lesbian

Rhoda = eating disorder

Lou = Alcoholic fired groping Sue Ann

Murray = gay man

Ted = Autistic

Gordy = Muslim black activist

Phyllis = Q-anon Karen

Sue Ann = Herpes-riddled sex addict

Georgette = domestic violence survivor

Oh, and it would now be a 60 minute dramedy on NBC

L&P MANAGEMENT

[quote] Edie divorcing Lou seemed like a cynical ploy to be able to introduce new plots with Lou dating. It was unnecessary and it didn't make sense, I agree completely with you

Edie went to the movies to see "An Unmarried Woman" -- it gave her ideas.

@ R125

The promo shot looks like Mary and Rhoda are doing a bus and truck tour of The Cherry Orchard

@ R171

Ironically, Norman Fell was family. And no, that's not wishful thinking...

[quote] People saved for Christmas, vacations and big purchases. Remember the Christmas Clubs at the banks? I don't know if they exist anymore.

Oh hell, Christmas doesn't exist anymore!

[quote] I doubt viewers watched MTM for the sets.

The gays did

R249, I think Sue Ann would be the one getting fired for groping Lou!

Mary bought herself a new set of tits before the start of season 5. That's why she looked so voluptuous in the hooker dress, a look she couldn't have pulled off in early seasons,

Later on after the show ended, MTM had to remove them for health reasons, so she said in her book and expressed regret for getting them in the first place.

[quote] Ann Marie was saddled with a bf from day one. Even Ann Sothern didn't have that, although she had a roommate.

Oh honey. Ann and her "roomie" were lesbians

[quote] It was possible and no longer unusual for someone to go a place like Minneapolis to make it on their own

{quote] Some of us preferred Indianapolis... God only knows why

All I can say is you bitches better stay out of Cincinnati

Here you go, R245.

[quote]Why did Mary Tyler Moore stare out at the audience (and sometimes the camera) after almost every one of the actors delivered a laugh line? She's so likable that it doesn't really bother me, but it is kind of unprofessional that she did it, and so often.

I'm not sure I've ever noticed that, but anyway, I'd hardly call it "unprofessional." I'm sure she thought doing that was actually a way to help get the laugh, and she was probably right. But I'm sure she never stared "at the camera," or at least, not INTO the camera. Weird comment on your part.

Mary was the straight man / woman most of the time. She probably wished she could actually get the laughs like the rest of the actors (Ted, Rhoda, Lou, even Phyllis). I don't know how funny Mary was. The times that her character was actually funny, it seems like there was some sort of physical prop involved. E.g., the awards night where everything went wrong: hair bump, false eyelash fell off on face, ugly floral dress (good dress got ruined by dry cleaner).

Mary would let the audience see her smile at the rotten things Phyllis, Sue Ann and Ted said to her. It showed she could take a joke and made their obnoxious characters more likable.

In the Golden Girls, Rue McClanahan did the same thing whenever Sophia called Blanche a slut or broken-down mattress. She laughed at it and the audience felt better about it.

[quote]A college degree meant BUPKIS for any woman not in the professions like law, MD, etc.

Like many women then, my mom went back to college at this time because she wanted to work outside the house and knew she could not get a good job without a degree. She got her B.A. at the extension school of the the University of Minnesota (she had left college in the 50s to get married and have kids), and only then was she able to get a good job with a government agency.

You're talking out of your ass.

[quote] Mary would let the audience see her smile at the rotten things Phyllis, Sue Ann and Ted said to her. It showed she could take a joke and made their obnoxious characters more likable.

Betty White said after the show was done that the writers had to make it clear that Mary and Murray found Sue Ann mostly humorous rather than deeply annoying, because otherwise the audience would have hated her character.

[quote] Mary would let the audience see her smile at the rotten things Phyllis, Sue Ann and Ted said to her. It showed she could take a joke and made their obnoxious characters more likable.

There was a coldness to Mary (Richards and Tyler Moore). Robert Redford picked up on it and I can see it now, as an adult (watching MTM show).

Mary's smile, in Sue Ann's case, came off as: OK, you can have this little thing.

Sue Ann did have a fun, sexual role. But in reality, she looked older and frumpier than Mary. Mary would never have been threatened by Sue Ann. The episodes that rang true were the ones where SA and Mary went on a work trip together. Went to a bar and all the men liked Mary (ignored SA). Another episode involved SA's better-looking sister coming to Mnpls. Better-looking than SA.

[quote] Mary was the straight man / woman most of the time. She probably wished she could actually get the laughs like the rest of the actors (Ted, Rhoda, Lou, even Phyllis).

Actually, she said she felt that way when she did The Dick van Dyke Show, because she was more insecure then about letting audiences know what she could do, and that shew as actually terrific at physical comedy. She actually said her single favorite episode of the DVDS for that reason is when Laura snoops into Rob's package (when he's after her to be less nosey) and actually inflates the gigantic inflatable raft.

By the time she did The MTM Show, she was pretty much a huge star and was pretty secure people knew her comedic skills. Plus the writers often saved the best bits for her. The funniest episode of the show (and perhaps of any sitcom) is "Chuckles Bites the Dust," which all depends on her great bit at the end during Chuckles's eulogy; and perhaps the funniest bit in the entire history of the show ever is Mary trying out Sue Ann's sexy bed when no one else is around (which starts at 22:56 on this clip).

[quote] The funniest episode of the show (and perhaps of any sitcom) is "Chuckles Bites the Dust," which all depends on her great bit at the end during Chuckles's eulogy[] ...

Respectfully, I disagree that Chuckles Bites Dust was an unusually funny episode. There are several DL threads about MTM show and I hate to speak on behalf of all posters on DL, but I'm not the only one who didn't find that episode to be the pinnacle of comedy.

R267- Lila is Marylin Munster from The Munsters (1964-1966)

R246

No, we don't always use east or west designations for addresses

If one says "57th and 8th (avenue), then it is clear location is on west side because that is only place where said street and avenue intersect. Ditto "Fifth (avenue) and 23rd, or 28th street between 6th and 7th...

We also don't always indicate avenue or street either as it is apparent to New Yorkers where a Manhattan address would be.

[quote]I'm sure I saw an episode in which it was revealed that Lars and Phyllis did indeed own the building. Mary was pissed because all this time Phyllis had lied about just managing the building and had talked about "the owners" telling her to raise the rent, etc. Of course Phyllis had been lying because she wanted to avoid the consequences of being her friend's landlord and therefore raising her rent or not fixing something in a timely fashion, etc. Which was very Phyllis.

I only saw the MTM show in its original run but I'm pretty sure this rings a bell with me.

What was the point of the gimmick of Lars never being seen on the show? Were other characters on the show mentioned but never seen?

By the way I remember people were anticipating Nanette Fabray playing Mary's mom but as I recall, it didn't especially work. Seemed like a good idea but for whatever reason, it never went anywhere - maybe the writing was to blame.

Nanette Fabray came off as kind of neurotic and self-centered, which some mothers are. But I don't think Mary's mother was supposed to be like that. There was a physical resemblance, though.

R150, that episode was so bizarre to me, it was completely out of character for Rhoda to intentionally reveal Mary’s secret. Mary had every right to be pissed at her, she should’ve been groveling for forgiveness. Rhoda was really unlikeable in that episode. This show had some really WTF moments, like Murray being in love with Mary.

[quote] Were other characters on the show mentioned but never seen?

Rhoda repeated that with Carleton the Doorman.

That bitch Mary Richards stole the good apartment with the shag carpet. Rhoda was trying to get it for herself before Mary showed up!

[quote]Rhoda repeated that with Carleton the Doorman.

Yes and no, because Carlton's voice was heard, but Lars was only just mentioned by Phyllis or the others.

Phyllis and Lars managed the building, but didn't own it. In the S2 episode "More than Neighbors", we find out Phyllis managed the building because it helped with their rent and required little of their time. Mary and Rhoda were pissed because Phyllis never put any time at all, either in responding to calls or doing repairs. We also learn in that episode there is at least a second floor apt (Mary is on the third floor) that Ted almost rents, to Mary's chagrin.

I think Chuckles the Clown is brilliant not because of the sophmoric jokes in the beginning but Mary's brilliance in the funeral scene.

Cannot recall where it began but many television situation comedies from 1970's, 1980's and beyond often had at least one character who was never seen, but carried the comedic value forward.

Keeping Up Appearances had Sheridan.

Ab Fab had Ed's son Serge, though later they did incarnate him as a person.

Lars - MTM show

Golden Girls had Dorothy's cross dressing brother Phil.

And so it goes...

I thought Mary did quite a bit of physical comedy in the DVD show. The walnuts in the closet springs to mind. Plus Laura was a more physical character in many ways with her dancing, etc. Mary Richard’s always seemed a little more repressed to me than Laura as a character despite the obvious differences in circumstances.

"What single, twenty-something New Yorker moves alone to Minneapolis? That was perplexing."

Why would a witch want to give up her vast powers to become a drudge for some mortal man?

Film either large screen or small does require some suspension of belief, what would be the point otherwise...

@r279, That's true, remember "Carlton your doorman"? It's a funny bit, and you don't have to pay an actor.

The voice actor who played Carlton did get paid, I'm sure.

'Carlton' (Lorenzo Music) was most definitely paid as a writer as well as a voice actor (Garfield the Cat).

Not as much as a full actor, plus it leaves something to the audience's imagination. It's always a disappointment when such a character is revealed to the audience. They should never do it

R283

Of course actor who voiced Carlton received compensation. However as it was explained to me years ago now how much an actor receives in compensation is reflected by how much of their body (or rather face) is seen by camera.

IIRC there are standard union rates for voice work, actors whose faces are never seen, and those who do face camera.

Robert Conrad, John Forsythe, and many other actors past and now were/are paid well enough for voice work on television or films, but not much as when they had "starring" or "also starring" roles.

A voice can be changed to another actor far more easily than one who is an established character and many wouldn't know difference.

I think Mary’s apartment took on less significance after Rhoda and Phyllis left the show. All the action moved to the news room and her apartment was sort of lonely anyway with the friends gone. I personally missed a lot of the earlier season home/friendship episodes. There was a coziness that was kind of missing when Rhoda and, to a lesser extent, Phyllis left.

Was Mary’s new apartment in a high end area? Is it really the projects now? How did that happen?

The "new" apartment (exterior) looked desolate and sad, even back then.

R95 Mary never looked at the camera. Elizabeth Montgomery on Bewitched was constantly sneaking looks at the camera. So was Bill Cosby on the Cosby Show. I never saw MTM do it.

I thought the number one rule of acting was to NEVER look directly at the camera. Although it can be used as a bit where the actor is sharing a secret with the audience that the others are unaware of

I agree with what someone here said earlier- Rhoda's fatness was exaggerated - she was not fat and her unattractiveness was exaggerated-she was actually pretty. On Queer As Folk Ted Schmidt's oldness was exaggerated ( he looked about the same age as the so called HOT one- Brian) and he was not this unattractive guy- he was cute. On the show he was invisible to the so called hot guys but in real life he would have had no problem finding guys to have sex with and date- ditto for Rhoda.

I'm so glad for all the feedback to my questions. This is a very fun thread to read.

Yes, Mary Tyler Moore looked at the camera sometimes. It's during the first two seasons that I mostly noticed it, but yes, she does. It's only for a second or two. As I said, I hadn't noticed in in earlier viewings, but this time around I am noticing it. And she does look out at the audience regularly after someone delivers a laugh line. I love her on this show, and was surprised to see her do these things, especially since she didn't do it as Laura Petrie. As I said, she's so likable that it's not really distracting, but I wouldn't have expected it.

As others keep pointing out, Phyllis and Lars did not own the Victorian house. Mary and Rhoda found out that Phyllis managed the building, but she and Lars didn't own it.

R279 You've forgotten Maris.

If she had any upper body strength, she'd slap you for forgetting.

[quote]Yes, Mary Tyler Moore looked at the camera sometimes. It's during the first two seasons that I mostly noticed it, but yes, she does. It's only for a second or two.

An actor can look in the direction of the camera without looking directly INTO the camera in the way one would if speaking directly to the television audience. I can't believe MTM would ever have done the latter.

I just thought about how different Mary Richards was from Laura Petrie and I think that shows Mary Tyler Moore's range as an actress. I can't imagine Jennifer Aniston not seeming like Rachel in another sitcom, or Shelly Long (who I adored on Cheers) being able to act as a completely different character than Diane Chambers (my very favorite television character) if she had done another sitcom. It wouldn't be easy to seem so different in the two roles, but MTM did an excellent job. It's interesting because MTM considered herself a dancer first, and I think that JA and SL studied acting a lot longer than MTM.

[quote] if she had done another sitcom

She did, gurl.

@r293, Yes, Maris was great, there was also "Jimmy" from Grace Under Fire, Grace's never seen ex-husband, but they ruined it when they actually brought a real "Jimmy" on the show

[quote]An actor can look in the direction of the camera without looking directly INTO the camera in the way one would if speaking directly to the television audience. I can't believe MTM would ever have done the latter.

Okay. I truly thought I saw this quite a few times, but after so many people have disagreed, I'll assume I'm mistaken.

The only time an actor looks directly at the camera is when they're sharing a moment or secret with the audience. It's a common bit, but I honestly don't remember if it was used much on MTM. I do remember a lot of double takes by Mary, but that's not really the same thing

If you think about the office set, where Mary and Murray sat, side-by-side, the camera was often at the same angle, i.e., facing those 2 desks (Mary's & Murray's). Hence, if the actors (Mary and Murray) were talking to each other, their faces would be in profile (Mary's right side / Murray's left side). I think Mary did turn her head (from the right profile position). Maybe not fully facing the camera, but I think her head did turn toward the camera.

I don't remember Murray doing this.

[quote]Her backstory, earlier footage and theme song may make more sense when you consider Mary the character was originally written as a newly divorced woman making a fresh brave start. Which was major as MTM had become famous as Laura Petrie, a perfect suburban mother and housewife. They changed it to avoid controversy or turning off viewers.

I once read that they didn't want the audience to be confused and think Laura divorced Rob Petrie. You'd think no audience would be that dumb, but I suppose they meant in a subconscious way, which I could see being a concern to producers who have to worry about a show appealing to people quickly.

This is the angle (somewhat) I meant. Here are Mary and Ted facing the direction of the camera. This would be an unnatural angle if 2 people were talking to each other.

@r301, People loved Laura Petrie and I remember there being real concern if the world would accept Mary Richards

[quote] Here are Mary and Ted facing the direction of the camera. This would be an unnatural angle if 2 people were talking to each other.

But that wasn't/isn't mugging for the camera in the breaking the fourth wall sort of way. Mary may have paused for a laugh line, that I can see.

Mary and Murray's orientation as they're seated is a limitation of the newsroom set, plus the way the cameras are in that link at R302 it's clear the whole layout is "proscenium style" - e.g. playing to the live audience as one would in a theater, so the lines do get delivered to the camera, which is capturing it in that perspective, AND to an audience.

I think some other sets had ways they could block the action in different spots while still essentially facing forward in delivery. I know they seemed to struggle with where to sit actors in Lou's office for a while, since that was probably harder to shoot.

(sorry, it's Ted in that link where Murray usually sits but you get my point)

All of you old to elder queens have seen television characters breaking fourth wall if you did but know it.

Bugs Bunny and other cartoon characters did it all the time.

^ Your comment makes no sense, but you baby gays never do

I'm a big fan of MTM and have the first few seasons on DVD... I can say that Mary never looks directly into the camera (unless the scene calls for it, like when she had to deliver the editorial in one episode). Mary will look off to the side of the camera sometimes when reacting to a line or action, but never directly into it. I think OP is confusing that.

I've seen numerous outtakes where someone messed up a line, perhaps swore, and MTM looked out towards the audience and cameras with a big smile. She knew those takes weren't going to be in the show when it aired. I don't know if she was smiling at the audience, the show's crew, or both.

Valerie Harper was a very beautiful woman, and I think someone has said or speculated that if Valerie looked as she did 4 years later, she might not have gotten the job, even if she would be wearing a fat suit to play Rhoda. That said, I often have thought even the 1970 Valerie was wearing some waist and rear end padding when playing Rhoda. If you want to see Valerie in 1959, watch the filmed version of the musical Li'l Abner, where she dances up a storm. Beth Howland was also a dancer in the film, and you can see that compared with skinny Beth, Valerie did have a larger waist than many of the other dancers.

And if I haven't strayed off-topic enough yet, I'll just mention (because this is DL) that I had the hots for Peter Palmer (who played Li'l Abner on stage and screen) when I was a little kid. Handsome, tall, muscular, and he sang beautifully. Uh, excuse me while I put on the DVD.

I'm not caught up on this thread but Phyllis didn't own the house.

There is an episode where Mary and Rhoda talk about calling the manager and always getting that droning voice of L and P Management. They say the voice sounds familiar. They then figure out it is Lars and L and P is Lars and Phyllis.

On the second season of Rhoda (I believe) which would be the sixth of MTM Mary guest stars and tells Ida outright that she gained 10 pounds since Ida last saw her. I was surprised MTM acknowledged that openly.

In the third season of Rhoda which I just watched, Rhoda is pulled out of the audience (with Brenda) to dance with the backup dancers of a singer they know.

Harper could still really move. The scene made me wonder why she never went into a Broadway musical on her hiatus. She could have played Cassie in A Chorus Line. She's that good.

r302 that is the episode where they do the news live in the newsroom with Ted sitting at Murray's desk.

(Jerry Van Dyke guest stars and gets drunk and ruins it because Mary rejected him.)

L and P Management, lol. Only on DL do people try to get to the bottom of whether Phyllis and Lars owned the apartments or only managed them.

Was Lars the first character on TV to be talked about so much but never seen?

Also there is an episode where Ted is going to rent an apartment in the house. Phyllis stops some of his demands saying the owner won't go for that.

I didn't know Valerie Harper was a dancer. That really surprises me.

[quote]Was Lars the first character on TV to be talked about so much but never seen?

No. In Spring Byington's sitcom "December Bride," Harry Morgan played Pete Potter, a next-door neighbor who was always complaining about his unseen wife, Gladys. After the series' final season, there was a spinoff called "Pete and Gladys," starring Morgan and Cara Williams as the previously unseen Gladys.

Burns & Allen did a lot of that 4th wall/ unseen characters as well. You never see Gracie's relatives, but she talks about them all the time and George Burns talks to the audience as well

I loathed low-self-esteem Rhoda. But, she played a necessary sitcom type.

I loathed Georgette's preciousness at first, but she toned it down a bit in later episodes and became tolerable. I don't understand why they cast such exaggerated types or wrote for the characters to be so exaggerated. A little realism goes a long way, even in comedy. Ted's another example. He had his moments that were funny, but the writers tried to make everything he said "a moment" and it didn't work for me.

I'm one of the people who thought it was revealed that lasts and Phyllis owned the building, going from memory. Thanks for the clarification that the reveal was they only managed it.

That said, it now makes zero sense that Phyllis was showing Mary around the apartment in the pilot, if she was posting as "just a renter." It also is weird that a dermatologist is not only renting 1/3 of a house for himself, his wife and his daughter but also managing it in order to get a discount on the rent. Did Lars have a gambling or heroin problem? Why was he so broke?

R318

Burns and Allen television show in many ways was an extension, or not much different if you will, of their stage vaudeville act.

Notice it was only George Burns who often broke the fourth wall. He often did so as sort of a narrator or commentator.

Mary's (infamous) parties were so quiet. She had a stereo but never played music at her parties. Strange.

^ I think too much background music would have interfered with the dialog and laughter

Dermatologists did not make any where near sort of money many of you seem to believe they did back in day. Dermatology was just that a practice largely confined to issues and diseases of skin. Big money specialties then were things like cardiology.

It wouldn't be until relatively modern times as dermatologists started to branch out and become superstars by largely creating cosmetic/skin care lines, opening practices catering to wealthy, beautiful, and rich/famous.

Dr. Nicholas Perricone, Dr. Howard Murad and Dr. Frederic Brandt and some others were early into this game. It is no coincidence that these "anti-aging" doctors made bank starting around 1980's or so, just as first wave of Boomers (or their parents) hit middle age or otherwise became worried about signs of aging.

In short there was then and now a huge new market ripe for picking, and dermatologists were thing to rake it in.

Plastic/reconstructive surgeons were same. Back in day they were another specialty often looked down upon by some in medical establishment. Bulk of their work was reconstructive and so forth work. Then by 1980's as everyone and their mother wanted face lifts, Botox, fillers, various facial implants, breast augmentation and so forth, plastic surgeons could open a practice and rake in serious money.

Like dermatologists many plastic surgeons also peddle various creams, lotions and cosmetics (at huge mark-up), which boosts their income.

More...

[quote]Big money specialties then were things like cardiology.

Which is why I contend that Mary's dad would have been pretty well off.

If Lars rolled like Dr. Perricone things would have been very different.

"Forty years ago doctors made less than twice as much as other professional and technical workers -- the rest of the educated elite -- and less than three times as much as the average wage-earner. Today physicians average more than four times as much as all other professional-technical persons, twice as much as lawyers and more than five times as much as all wage-earners."

While cardiovascular physicians and surgeons compensation was tracked back then, it is difficult to find numbers for dermatologists. Sort of gives you an idea of how low on totem pole the latter was in rankings.

"How a Famous Skin-Care Expert Fights Aging"

Maybe he should have studied rhinoplasty and do something about that huge honker

George Burns always looked at the camera and addressed the audience during the show, Gracie only spoke to the camera during their chat scene at the end when she said goodnight.

Danny Thomas never spoke to the camera, but often gave it a disbelieving look if something outrageous was occurring during the scene. That usually got him a big laugh.

Let’s not leave out Mrs. Colombo as a famous unseen character.

[quote]And she does look out at the audience regularly after someone delivers a laugh line.

She's looking off to the side, which is pretty standard when someone delivers a laugh line, especially one that's supposed to make other characters exasperated or a little confused. It's not "looking at the audience."

I just picked this episode at random, in the first 2-3 minutes it's Valerie Harper sneaking looks at the camera, but she also looks toward what would be the front wall but which you would call "at the audience," but clearly she's not really doing that. About 8:15 in, Gavin MacLeod does the same. I'm not sure why you're singling MTM out for it or why you think no character should be allowed to look in the direction crew or audience would be.

[quote]I'm a big fan of MTM and have the first few seasons on DVD... I can say that Mary never looks directly into the camera (unless the scene calls for it, like when she had to deliver the editorial in one episode). Mary will look off to the side of the camera sometimes when reacting to a line or action, but never directly into it. I think OP is confusing that.

Maybe. So now we've spent all this time arguing about a problem that never existed, all because OP was confused and ignorantly called out MTM for her "unprofessionalism."

^... and the circle of DL continues

I get that Lars wouldn't have been wealthy, but surely a dermatologist was at least middle class, even in the '70s.

Living with your family in 1/3 of an old house and managing the other tenants in order to save on rent is something poor people do.

Did Mary and Phyllis know each other previously? In ep 2 Phyllis tells Mary she ran into her old bf from 4 years ago.

It is clear from many episodes that Mary and Phyllis knew each other before Mary moved to the Victorian apartment. It is Phyllis who actually got her that apartment

This thread is making me think of the first apartment I lived in by myself. It was the back of a house that had been converted into three apartments. It was one large room that had my bed/futon, another small couch, coffee table, computer desk. One wall was huge windows, another had built in shelves and a tv spot, bathroom and closet on the end. There was another small room connected to it with a tiny kitchen.

I’m glad to not live anywhere that tiny now, but I have great memories of living there. It was pretty neat when I think back on it. Plus, I was in my 20s, new in town, and about a mile from the most popular gay bar in town. My futon saw a lot of action!

[quote][R101] - that still is obviously of a curtain call; have you ever attended a sit-com taping?

Plus, the still is identified as a promotional photo in the caption. And, in that photo, Ed Asner is looking at the camera, or towards the camera, as much as MTM is. The person who keeps insisting that MTM would look into the camera after other cast members' laugh lines is either a troll or an idiot or both.

[quote] Cannot recall where it began but many television situation comedies from 1970's, 1980's and beyond often had at least one character who was never seen, but carried the comedic value forward.

This could be a thread all onto itself. My first thoughts were Wilson from Home Improvement and Maris from Frasier. Letting the audience picture the character (often ridiculously described by others) is far more engaging and funny. Hell, even Beckett had a go at it with "Waiting for Godot"...

[quote] Also there is an episode where Ted is going to rent an apartment in the house. Phyllis stops some of his demands saying the owner won't go for that.

But that doesn't really prove anything. It would have been very Phyllis to invent some third party villain to cast blame upon for what she didn't want done.

Was Lars supposed to be Scandanavian? Was he supposed to be a bit airheaded like Rose on Golden Girls?

R333 They ruined Mrs. Columbo by spinning off the character and casting Kate Mulgrew, then in her early 20s, as Columbo's high school sweetheart/wife. It made no sense and the show was awful!

[quote] Living with your family in 1/3 of an old house and managing the other tenants in order to save on rent is something poor people do.

To me it was implied that Lars was also extremely cheap.

R319- She was NOTHING compared to the low self esteem of Brenda , especially in the early episodes of Rhoda.

[quote]I get that Lars wouldn't have been wealthy, but surely a dermatologist was at least middle class, even in the '70s. Living with your family in 1/3 of an old house and managing the other tenants in order to save on rent is something poor people do.

People don't always live the way you think they're "supposed" to live for their station in life.

I can't say if this is true or not, because I was a kid, but the perception back then was that certain types of doctors were not very prestigious. Dermatologists, podiatrists, optometrists, etc. - and, for the most part, GPs. This changed over 50 years, especially in the specialties. But I remember going to some pretty crummy old offices of some doctors. There were doctors who lived in my neighborhood who didn't live in big houses or drive nice cars.

Look at some old TV shows - Donna Reed show - husband was a pediatrician, I think. Not poor, but regular house, office in the house, not exactly living in the lap of luxury. Or more recently, Becker.

[quote] She was NOTHING compared to the low self esteem of Brenda , especially in the early episodes of Rhoda.

Sure, but Julie Kavner was FAR more believable as a frumpy schlump.

R349- In 1974 Julie Kavner was fat ( not by todays standards but 1974 standards) but by 1977 she lost a lot of weight and grew her hair longer- she was kinda pretty by then.

[quote]Harper could still really move. The scene made me wonder why she never went into a Broadway musical on her hiatus. She could have played Cassie in A Chorus Line.

The MTM Show started in 1970. A Chorus Line started in 1975. I was standing in Cassie's shoes at the time, buster.

Also back then doctors often had a small practice, by themselves. Only one receptionist or office worker (Often, it was their wife) - no nurse practitioner. Not that some didn't work for clinics or at hospitals. One doctor my parents used to know didn't even force patients to pay their bills. "They'll pay when they can afford to." They would take patients who didn't have insurance, and not charge them much. Things have changed a lot.

Why didn’t Mary have any black friends?

Why didn't the kids on What's Happening!! have any white friends? Why didn't Fred Sanford have any white friends?

R354- Why didn't George Jefferson have any white friends?

I have a theory about the MTM Show. The showrunner was James L. Brooks, who later wrote Broadcast News. Watching BN, I was struck by the fact that MTM was a broader take on the same characters. We again have the smart girl producer, the intelligent, empathetic but friend-zoned offsider (Murray) and the ethics-free moron who looks good on camera (Ted). So I wondered if the characters were inspired by people Brooks had known. If some version of the events described in BN had happened not long before 1970, Ted may have been a vengeance caricature of the guy later portrayed rather more sympathetically by Hurt.

If they did a reboot of MTM, Rhoda would be black. Probably Lou would be black. Georgette would be Asian.

R270, if you are the one who wrote "a modern NYC highrise on 57th Street," you didn't mention Eighth Ave, so it could be W57 or E57.

[quote]Why didn't George Jefferson have any white friends?

Well there was Tom Willis, if he was considered a friend, or maybe just a neighbor.

George and Fred disliked and didn't trust white people, similar to Archie Bunker's feelings about black people.

I think the What's Happenin' kids didn't hang with whites because back then (and somewhat today), American neighborhoods tended to be very segregated. They went to school and lived around other black kids so that's who they hung out with.

Other horrible things about the second apartment:

It had a fireplace that was never used. The dining table blocked it. Rare & unlikely that a modern high rise would have a fireplace anyway. What the F were those decorative tiles that dominated the camera facing wall? No function as far as I could tell.

Her bathroom was nice tho. We see it in the 18 minutes Mary was a raging opioid addict & Mr. Grant intervenes. The scene where she used one of Lars’ old prescription pads to score oxy had to be cut for time. Also the scene where she offers herself to Ted & Murray if they’ll just get her some precious dolls.

Brooks briefly works for CBS News. He also worked for David L Wolper (which did a lot of documentaries and would have meant knowing journalists). The slide toward happy talk and blow-dried, airhead anchors was well under way by the time MTM appeared. Brooks would have had plenty of material to work with. "Network" was released well before "Broadcast News" and covered the same ground but much more cynically. Brooks was no Paddy Chayefsky.

[quote]I think the What's Happenin' kids didn't hang with whites because back then (and somewhat today), American neighborhoods tended to be very segregated. They went to school and lived around other black kids so that's who they hung out with.

The show was actually called What's Happening!! (with a "g", and two exclamation points). Just sayin. Or saying.

Then that's probably why Mary didn't hang out with any black people, except at the office. Her life was probably even more segregated since she was older than the kids on that show.

Wasn't Lars supposed to be Swedish? Possibly Norwegian, but considering immigration patterns to Minnesota from 1860-1930, Swedish seems more likely. Northern European Lutherans are known for being stingy, so it makes sense that he and Phyll would try to save some ducats where possible

[quote]Well there was Tom Willis, if he was considered a friend, or maybe just a neighbor.

"The Jeffersons" ran for 11 seasons. Later in its run, it was implied, if not stated outright, that George and Tom had become friends.

[quote] Was Lars supposed to be Scandanavian? Was he supposed to be a bit airheaded like Rose on Golden Girls?

Yes, Lars was Scandinavian. I don't know about airheaded, but he did have an affair with Sue Ann Nivens, the MTM character played by Betty White (Rose on GG). That was a top tier episode as well. IIRC, it was the episode where Sue Ann / Betty closes the oven door with her knee. I think her souffle collapses as well. (All of this comes after Phyllis confronts her on the set of The Happy Homemaker.)

[quote] Yes, Lars was Scandinavian. I don't know about airheaded, but he did have an affair with Sue Ann Nivens, the MTM character played by Betty White

That must have been an awkward episode for Cloris who had previously suffered the humiliation of a very public 1958 affair between her husband (producer George Englund) and sex kitten Joan Collins.

[quote] What single, twenty-something New Yorker moves alone to Minneapolis? That was perplexing.

I've lived in Minneapolis, and I knew displaced single New Yorkers when I lived there. It is not all that strange.

Don't assume that just because you prefer a huge city that everyone else does. Many people like smaller cities. And in the late 60s and 70s ,NYC was infamously a dump with terrible crime problems.

I am fond of the MTM show. A lot of gay men here on datalounge WORSHIP the show and Mary but I always felt that All In The Family was a FAR funnier show.

Edith- Archie, please be nice

Archie- I'm ALWAYS nice, now sit THE HELL down!

I think a lot of people move OUT of NYC, LA, etc. (Talking about people born and raised in NYC / LA.) Some people just want something different out of life. Could be just seeking out a different kind of climate.

R368, ALL CITIES were in crisis in the 1970s. However, if you lived in the right area, crime was hardly noticeable. I spent lots of time in New York and Philly in the 70s, and saw no crime, no "filth."

[quote] [R368], ALL CITIES were in crisis in the 1970s.

I lived in Minneapolis in the 1970s and I visited New York in that same decade more than once.

Minneapolis's problems were nothing in that decade compared to NYC's. It did not have nearly the graffiti nor the crime.

[quote] Why didn't George Jefferson have any white friends?

He was rude to both Tom Willis and Harry Bentley and insulted them, but they liked him, and it was clear he had some affection for them despite himself. In any case, they were constantly over at his apartment.

The Willises were Lionel's (son of George & Louise) in-laws, so George was stuck with Tom Willis, anyway. Plus, Tom was inoffensive. Mr. Bentley was also really nice, but quirky. I was surprised to see him in Spinal Tap.

Also, Ralph the doorman was Caucasian and dropped by often, ready to accept a cash tip from George.

Not only was Valerie Harper a dancer, but her screen mother, Nancy Walker, was a Broadway musical comedy star.

Phyllis didn't own the house.

(I figured since some fat whore who didn't read the rest of the thread has to mention this every 50 replies, I would give of myself and be the fat whore who mentions it now.)

In 1970 I was 20 and I had a low wage just starting out. I made $300.00 dollars a month and had a very large single in Los Angeles in a nice neighborhood for $75.00 a month. I ate steak most nights. Things were really cheap back then and housing was still pretty cheap. Prices started going up around 1975 because of the oil crisis.

^ He must've rented a garage apartment from the Mothers-In-Law.

I just watched the episode R267 linked, the one with Sue Ann's sister. In the scene where they all walk into Sue Ann's bedroom, the camera pulls back so far that the studio lights are clearly seen across the top of the set. Surprising error for such a well produced show.

R366, the show you reference where Sue Ann closed the oven door with her knee was Betty's first appearance on the show. I believe it was supposed to be a one-time appearance but went so well, they asked Betty to join the show full-time.

And it was Betty’s idea to shut the oven that way.

R377- Unlike what most people think our standard of living in the USA did not peak in the 1950's or 1960's it peaked in the 1970's. 1973 to be exact so the purchasing power of Americans peaked then too.

R279---Frasier stole this bit with the rat faced, hollow boned, emaciated Merris never being seen.

[quote] I believe it was supposed to be a one-time appearance but went so well, they asked Betty to join the show full-time.

Well, on a recurring basis. Betty was never in every episode, though she said in several interviews people thought she was. She appeared in about a third of the episodes of seasons 4-7.

And R382 it's MARIS.

The frequently-mentioned-but-never-seen character goes back at least as far as Oscar Wilde. I think it's A Woman of No Importance, but anyway, one of the non-Ernest plays.

Lars was Swedish. When his relatives come to visit Phyllis says it is like living in an Ingmar Bergman film, any minute now she expects death to walk in and challenge one of us to a duel.

(Surprising how literate sitcoms were back then. You don't get references like that nowadays.)

[quote]Cannot recall where it began but many television situation comedies from 1970's, 1980's and beyond often had at least one character who was never seen, but carried the comedic value forward.

Norm's wife Vera on Cheers was oft-mentioned but never seen. The one time she actually appeared in person she had just gotten a pie to the face so she remained unknown to the audience.

They made it clear in the later seasons that George and Tom were best friends. I remember the Hawaii episode where Louise asked about leaving Tom (George wanted to move to Hawaii) and George set out to convince him to move too. He was also clearly close to Bentley in the later seasons as well.

When Mr. Grant judged female interviewees based upon how their "caboose" looked walking out of his office, Mary didn't even flinch. That was awkward, and strange because most people, even back then, know not to say certain things in mixed company.

Mary flinches at that and disapprovingly says the next applicant measures up caboose-wise.

Oh, I thought he just got by with the comment, R389. Good for Mary, then.

Famous oft-referred-to characters who were never seen (and I'm not talking about characters who later appeared in sequels or movies not part of original canon):

The Brady Bunch: The Dittmyers, the neighbors next door

Columbo: Mrs. Columbo, the detective's wife

The Andy Griffith Show: Juanita Beesley, who worked at the diner and who made Barney tongue-tied when he would try to flirt with her

The Mary Tyler Moore Show: Dr. Lars Lindstrom, perhaps the standard bearer for all unseen characters. We never saw him but we learned many memorable things about him, including (according to his wife Phyllis) that he had "a neurotic fear of swallowing hair"

My So-Called Life: Tino, the coolest kid anyone knew, who gave parties everyone heard about but no one attended

Why were high-rise apartments in TV shows so popular back in the day? As a kid they seemed so glamorous but as an adult they seem like they'd be a pain in the ass to live in. Was it an aspirational thing?

We've covered this ground re unseen characters several times in this thread......

not everyone keeps track of DL r393 as much as you seem to

[quote] that he had "a neurotic fear of swallowing hair"

lol!

r394 it's called reading the thread. people who can actually read do it here all the time

there are nearly four hundred posts

people may have lives outside of this thread that they need to attend to (and probably still can read)

R392, high-rise apartments aren’t a pain in the ass, IMO.

Sure, Rhoda and Phyllis moved out of the building, but the writers could have had people move into the building and created story around that. A new landlord. A new upstairs neighbor. If they didn't work out, then they move out or sell.

There were more than 3 apartments in the building. There is the other tenant whom Mary at first thinks is a hooker. That's the apartment Ted almost moves into.

I'll bet Phyllis and Lars would have had laundry hook-ups, but Mary, Rhoda and the other tenant would have to go to the laundromat. Hard to picture Mary doing laundry off-premises, but doubt that house had a laundry room.

Mary does mention going to a laundromat in one episode.

They should have had her move into Phyllis apartment.

[quote]Famous oft-referred-to characters who were never seen (and I'm not talking about characters who later appeared in sequels or movies not part of original canon):

Also: Sheridan Bucket on "Keeping Up Appearances."

"high-rise apartments aren’t a pain in the ass, IMO. "

Depends on how many elevators there are and how well they work. When half your commute is waiting for the elevator it's a pain in the ass

They cast someone to play the heavyset Jewish neighbor who was neither heavyset nor Jewish. That would be a no-go today.

Valerie Harper was good as Rhoda, but I thought she delivered her lines a little too manically. The character herself was more negative than she had to be. I'm not sure someone like Mary would have desired to be around that type of energy regularly. I liked the character overall, but the writers were a little one-dimensional with her.

R405 No, they didn't cast Rhoda to play heavyset. Rhoda poked fun at herself, she wasn't mocked for her weight. If anyone was cast for being chubby it was her sister Brenda. And non-Jews play Jewish roles quite often, and Jews have played non-Jewish roles, too. (Bea Arthur and Estelle Getty were both Jewish but played Sicillians; Lorraine Bracco isn't Jewish but she played a Jew in Goodfellas; Tom Cruise isn't Jewish but played a Jew in Tropic Thunder. And the list goes on.)

Oh, and Nancy Walker wasn't cast to play short, either.

R187, Charlotte Cushman, Sarah Bernhardt, and Eva LeGallene have her beat.

R387- I remember the Hawaii episode too. Helen asks Florence the made if she's going to Hawaii and Florence replies- Child, the closest I'll ever get to Hawaii is the pineapple section at the A&P!

[quote] In 1970 I was 20 and I had a low wage just starting out. I made $300.00 dollars a month and had a very large single in Los Angeles in a nice neighborhood for $75.00 a month.

For the curious, $300 in 1970 would be $2,155.69 in 2022. And $75 rent would be $538.92. While I am sure there are many, many people nowadays still making $2100 a month (or less), there is no way you could find a large single in a major U.S. city for $540 -- not even with section 8. And a single person making that much money wouldn't even qualify for section 8 anyway.

I got my first apartment while attending NYU. I had a normal-sized walkup, alcove studio on MacDougal and Bleecker and it cost $750 a month. That would be $1840 today, except that same apartment now is likely be $3000 or more.

Sorry, forgot to say that apartment was in 1987 for reference.

One of the issues in lots of cities now is that there isn't a "Mary Richards" type place, a starter apartment for a professional. Converting homes to apartments is more rare, especially with a huge demand for single family homes that are in or near a city neighborhood.

There are some young workers who had affluent parents demanding new build apartments. If they're in Chicago, they can pay $3500 for 700 sq ft. But it's near impossible to find any livable small space for less than $1500 anywhere.

I rented an apartment in my medium/large rust belt city circa 1999/2000 that was around $300. (it was an off listing rental - the owner was an old Italian guy who was terribly racist and told us "if you have a bunch of spooks come visit, I'll put you on the curb.") The price has exponentially gone up - there, and everywhere.

[QUOTE] the owner was an old Italian guy who was terribly racist and told us "if you have a bunch of spooks come visit, I'll put you on the curb.")

Don't repeat that to the guys in the Grindr/racist thread! They'll go batshit!

spoiler alert: I was dating a hot black guy and he was in my apartment almost every day for a year. LOL

if only MTM knew that years after her death and decades after the last Mary Tyler Moore episode aired we'd be so focused on her life.

I loved that apartment. I loved the snow. I loved zany Phyllis and BFF Rhoda.

My first name begins with M and when I saw a big M in a Marshall's I went head and bought it. It's in my apartment now.

I recently saw the episode where Ted and Georgette adopt a kid (Robbie Rist *eyeroll*). It made me wonder what ever happened with Murray's adopted son from Korea. Murray didn't even mention him during the episode, not even when Georgette was standing there in front of everyone in the office trying to convince Ted to adopt an older child, which would have been a natural segue for Murray to chime in. He had wanted a son so badly, for the same reasons Ted was listing, and he and Marie had tearfully brought their new kid into the office. One would think Murray would tell Ted about the wonders of adoption and about being a father to a son since it had meant so much to him. It's as if the writers were writing the same storyline for Ted and forgot all about the similar episode with Murray.

[quote] My first name begins with M and when I saw a big M in a Marshall's I went head and bought it. It's in my apartment now.

R414 - Does the M stand for Mommy?

A problem was when Joe and Rhoda broke up, they moved the focus to Brenda and a lot of time was spent in Brenda's claustrophobic apartment. Groh was a terrible choice in the first place. We knew Rhoda and she had to have someone with some sense of humor. These hunks like Groh or William DeVane who was reportedly the runner up had no chemistry because they couldn't be funny. The dating with Lou Grant made some sense even though Rhoda was as far from Edie as possible. Although they didn't pursue it, MTM had Rhoda with character actor Steve Franken, but I guess the executives didn't feel he was attractive enough for Rhoda.

Kavner's whiny delivery is amusing on the Simpsons but it was super hard to take on Rhoda. A friend who worked on the show said she was hated and almost certainly bipolar. At one of the wrap parties, she started physically pushing people around.

Julie Kavner was the best part of Rhoda. She's the reason I tuned in to watch it. Valerie was much more enjoyable on MTM than her own show.

"My first name begins with M and when I saw a big M in a Marshall's I went head and bought it. It's in my apartment now. "

Mary!

How did Rhoda keep warm during the Minnesota winters living in an attic apartment with no insulation?

Speaking of Cloris's husband, George Englund, here is the product of their union, Morgan Englund, who at least for awhile was hot as fuck.

Rhoda shouldn't have gotten married at all on the show - or at least not until they had exhausted all the dating possibilities.

The Ropers owned the house.

They should’ve kept Rhoda on MTM. Not very popular character needs a spin-off. Also her husband had such anger issues, it wasn’t a great pairing.

Good point, R424.

I liked the idea of Joe but not the reality.

Divorced Rhoda was sadder than single can't find a man Rhoda.

I don't remember Rhoda's show when it originally aired but I watched a couple episodes on some station a couple years ago. I don't know how far into the series it was but Joe was already gone. I couldn't believe how bad the show was. I loved everything about the MTM show and it was hard to believe this show was affiliated in any way with that show. I would describe Rhoda's show as unwatchable, it was that bad in every way.

R426 It ran five years. Though I guess the ratings diminished over time. At least originally it was a very popular show.

Back in those days, there were spin-offs galore. All in the Family spun off Maude and The Jeffersons. Maude spun off Good Times. Happy Days spun off Laverne and Shirley. The core show got diluted. It was all about making money, I guess. See how many characters you can pick off a show.

Rhoda (the show) could have worked if, as stated, she kept on dating in NYC. Also, they tried to make her more like Mary. Then sister Brenda became the Rhoda character (envying the Mary character).

Phyllis must've been really crappy b/c I don't remember anything about it and we haven't had any threads about it.

[quote]Happy Days spun off Laverne and Shirley.

And Joanie Loves Chachi.

I was going to say the same thing about Phyllis. Both MTM and Rhoda I’ve solely watching in reruns. In fact, many shows from that era and the 80s I’ve been exposed to in syndication. I, too, have never seen an episode of Phyllis. I don’t think it’s ever aired in reruns.

[quote]Phyllis must've been really crappy

It was a funny show - it was less crowd-pleasing or broad humor than other shows, it was more witty and sophisticated. It started off with high ratings. CL got a Golden Globe and an Emmy nom. Some of the cast members were elderly. Three cast members died (not necessarily the elderly ones) and one was ill (Jane Rose). That was hard on the show. It was only two seasons which may explain why it's not in syndication. Phyllis was better as a supporting character, though.

There are episodes on YouTube:

[quote]Phyllis must've been really crappy b/c I don't remember anything about it and we haven't had any threads about it.

"Phyllis" had a wonderful opening, with a theme song that spoofed the title song of the musical "Mame."

I never liked Phyllis much, just from a short clip I can tell I wouldn’t like her show.

Mary looked so bad in season 6 that people wrote to TV critics to complain! Here's a TV column from November 1975.

"I can't look at her this way," wrote one Mrs. Blanchard of Ohio.

MARY!

Phyllis didn't go into traditional syndication, but for several years in the '90s it aired daily on the Comedy Channel/Comedy Central in the US.

There was an inconsistency with Lars Lindstrom's level of Swedishness.

In the fabulous Season 4 episode "The Lars Affair," Phyllis imitates Lars speaking to her in Swedish. And in an earlier episode she said Lars' relatives were like characters from an Ingmar Bergman film.

But in the spinoff series, Phyllis goes to live with Lars' mother (Jane Rose), who is not Swedish at all.

"Phyllis" was very funny—funnier and better conceived than "Rhoda," in my opinion.

The primary writers were David Lloyd (who did the Chuckles the Clown episode of MTM) and Glen and Les Charles, who went on to create Cheers. I think there were some future WKRP writers involved too.

r436 that is Lars' Uncle Gustav who Phyllis imitates. They never mention Lars' parents or where they are from.

Fred Silverman demanded that Rhoda be married in the first season in time for sweeps. That worked out briefly. The wedding episode was huge. BUT then they just had to be married and they didn't know what to do with them.

Rhoda/Harper they wanted to spin off in the first season of MTM but Harper didn't feel ready and wanted to stay on MTM. She only agreed after 4 seasons when Moore reassured her that if the show got cancelled they would just have Rhoda move back to MN and the MTM show.

I recall MTM as a kid and never liked her. Her constant entreating 'Mr Grant, Mr Grant' when everyone else called him Lou really grated on me. I also thought it bizarre that Mary was the heroine and Rhoda was the DUFF (designated ugly fat/funny friend). Valerie Harper was an extremely beautiful woman and MTM was not, with that wide mouth of hers.

Phyllis, Sue Ann and Rhoda had the funniest lines.

Re - That Girl, referenced above - how is it that Ann and Don never ran into anyone associated with the mid-60s Andy Warhol world in NYC? Or the l Greenwich Village gay or folk music world, dating back from the 40s or 50s?

I think the first season of Rhoda is great... trying to find a job, an apt, the courtship/wedding with Joe (my faves include the bridal shower, honeymoon). By the second season, while there are still some good episodes, you can see the writers trying to create some conflict in the marriage.. mainly by changing Joe's behavior. He's sullen in one episode, then argumentative, and then too complacent. Audiences tho still liked Rhoda & Joe despite the writers hitting a creative wall. Divorcing them in season 3 drove audiences away and the show never recovered. A divorced Rhoda was just sad and not even funny anymore. Phyllis started with a great pilot... love Cloris' little bits of comedy (the spoon and the sugar cube, the Lars whistling bit), but the following episodes' writings didn't live up to that. Plus Cloris changed her appearance by the second episode... drastic new haircut, and her clothes became drab and monochromatic (she was dressed with a flair for color and patterns on MTM). I remember not recognizing her as Phyllis on her own show, outside of the pilot.

[quote][R436] that is Lars' Uncle Gustav who Phyllis imitates. They never mention Lars' parents or where they are from.

No, dummy R438. I know what I'm talking about. Phyllis imitates Lars saying her name in a Swedish accent and talking in Swedish here at 15:50.

Interesting that the writers made Mary basically unambitious. When her Aunt Flo came to visit because she was covering a big news story about a murder trial in Minneapolis, Mary knew nothing about it, nor did she know the name of the district attorney or the editor of the evening paper. (That was a very funny scene, and both actresses played it very well.) In earlier seasons, the writers had Mary take two different writing classes, but she didn't pursue writing news copy or creative writing afterwards. She supposedly produced a Sunday documentary-type show, but she rarely spoke of it and never seemed to be working on any stories or story ideas. Then, as mentioned above, when she got bored with her life, they just had to change apartments (leaving a charming place for a dull cookie-cutter apartment...a lateral move at best). Except for making her a single woman, they didn't "liberate" Mary very much.

*had her change apartments

Well, she got a bedroom. Don’t know how much longer they could keep her on a couch in the living room. I’m glad they didn’t marry her off, or had her dying for a man. Mary did not seem happy at the new place.

R443- Back in 1970 she was only applying for the job of secretary. Why should she all of a sudden have this ambition to produce her own shows. She didn't go to college and acquire those skills. If the show were filmed today she would be the owner of the station by the time the show went off the air- which of course is NOT realistic.

Mad Men is set TEN years earlier than MTM and Peggy starts off as a MOUSY secretary and by the end of the show ( set in 1970) she is offered by Joan an opportunity to start her own advertising agency with her. Viewers like to see that type of progress in their female tv characters in the 21st century. I'm not certain how realistic Peggy's rise from mousy secretary to high powered executive is

R445- It's also impressive in a way that even at the end of the show she NEVER met Mr. Right not to marry or even for just a boyfriend- which is realistic. Plenty of us homos NEVER meet Mister Right.

R421 Nice/not a schemer, but as dumb as his daytime character. Jethro from the Beverly Hillbillies dumb.

Has an enormous cock and back in the day, would show it off or show VPL to just about anyone that asked.

I think the big bubble of hair on Mary's head was a wig, because it doesn't resemble her real hair at all. It's way too thick.

And I think people were distressed that Mary looked "older" because they still wanted her to be the ingenue as she was on DVD or in the first season or two of MTM (when she was really a bit too old to play the ingenue but did it anyway). By the sixth season, Mary was 40 and looked it, but her fans still wanted to think of her as a cute young girl.

The newsroom didn’t seem very realistic. Mary didn’t really seem like an associate producer. She’d be busier, running around more, but she was always at her desk, mainly stress free. Lou was always in his office, you’d think he would have to attend tons of meetings. His desk was mainly empty, except the phone and a file or two. It is jarring seeing no computers.

MTM went to Minneapolis to escape the memories of a bad relationship. She became a career woman and I think the execs felt no one was good enough for our Mary. Ted Bessell was a dreadful choice. There was that professor she took a course from and who she inadvertently broke up his engagement. She spent the night with one. But the genuine suitors were few and far between.

Rhoda's subtext was always that she wanted a boyfriend/husband. If it weren't Groh, maybe the show might have worked. But marrying her off, she suddenly became MTM and Brenda became Rhoda.

R451- You have to admit that Brenda was FAR more realistic as someone who was tubby and unattractive and would have a hard time meeting a guy( especially in the early episodes of Rhoda). Rhoda even at her chunkiest on MTM or the Rhoda show was not beautiful but she was ALWAYS attractive- definitely someone men would always notice.

Groh was smoking hot with his gorgeous furry chest shown a few times, at least during season one.

R59 The phrase "Get a life" comes to mind."

R453 thinks we don't know that

Somehow I always got some dark, insecure vibe from MTM. I think one of the reasons she often went for that noticeable stare-out into the audience after one of her fellow castmembers made a fun joke or read a great line, was that she realized the secret of her shows was the ensemble casts surrounding and interacting with her and with one another. By herself, she was kind of distant and one-note, IMO.

For the last time, that staring-out-into-the-audience thing (which is not really an accurate description of it) is a time-honored way for an actor to react to someone else's laugh line. And the rest of your post is nonsense, R456. So you should have kept your "O" to yourself, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

R456 Mary followed the example of Dick Van Dyke who let the other cast members shine. Dick was funny but he allowed the others their moments also. MTM did the same on her show.

This is going to sound corny, but here goes. R458, You are absolutely right. And I think that’s one of the reasons the show holds up for me. On watching I sense the ensemble’s warmth and respect for each other and I think that elevates the show for the audience. You can see it on the last show video, which included Rhoda and Phyllis at the end. I admire that level of professionalism and civiliity.

[quote]Mary followed the example of Dick Van Dyke who let the other cast members shine. Dick was funny but he allowed the others their moments also.

And letting the others shine wasn't always easy with Morey Amsterdam and Rose Marie.

As perfect a sitcom as MTM was, it had some weird continuity issues and choices.

For example: Mary's parents moved from Roseburg to Minneapolis in season 3. They were featured on two episodes (Mom was Nanette Fabray) and then never seen or referred to again.

[quote] Mary never looked at the camera

[quote]Yeah, I agree with [R97], [R95]. I don't remember that ever happening either, so either put up or shut up.

[quote] I'm sure she never stared "at the camera," or at least, not INTO the camera. Weird comment on your part.

There are so many examples, but I just saw this episode last night( (season 7, episode 2) and I present... Mary looking at the camera at 13:46 and 13:53.

Mary-Looks-at-the-Camera Troll, do you mind if I ask: are you on the spectrum?

I don't mean that as an insult; I'm genuinely curious. Because you seem a bit obsessive about something that people not on the spectrum 1) wouldn't notice, 2) wouldn't bother them if it were brought to their attention, and 3) wouldn't do research on so they could continue trying to impose their obsession with the subject on others.

R463, this thread was meant in good fun, as was my response to you at R462. Don't take things so seriously.

[quote]Don't take things so seriously.

What the hell? You've been yelling at us for days for not finding any examples of what you were talking about, you've really been bringing the whole thread down, and now you're telling someone else THEY take it too seriously?

I agree that the clips at r462 have her glancing at the camera, but they look like she's doing the usual job of looking around like one does during a conversation, and didn't realize the camera was right there when she looked up so she had to look away quickly. Yeah, that's a mistake, but I'm not quite getting the obsession about it, or why it took you so long to find your "receipts" if she did it "all the time" like you said.

Four Gay guys are about to flounce right out of here

"She looks at the camera", "She doesn't look at the camera", "Her hair is a mess", "Rhoda!"

R465 - Yelling at who for days? What are you even talking about?

Mentioning the subject *one time* when I started the thread a few days ago is an obsession? You don't make any sense. I thought it would be fun (and hopefully funny) to provide the example you (or someone) asked for a few days ago, which I just did (at R462). I truly have no idea what you're bitching about. Just lighten up and have fun in this thread. No one's arguing with anyone.

Just for the record, I'm R463 and I've never weighed in on the "looking at the camera" subject until then. I'm just tired of seeing the back and forth on that tired subject because for me, it's killing what is otherwise a fun thread.

Ok chill everyone. The “Mary looks at the camera” poster is correct and provided proof. And we shouldn’t chide him since someone challenged him to do so. Now for some interesting stuff. Any stories about Mary’s drinking?

r467, you brought it up several times after posting about it in the OP.

[quote]She did it regularly.

[quote]The show itself. Watch it and you'll see her do it. I noticed it mostly in the first two seasons, but I'm pretty sure she continues throughout the series but I've grown used to it now. I was surprised that she did that, especially because she was on a television series already and understood how to perform on camera before an audience.

[quote]Yes, Mary Tyler Moore looked at the camera sometimes. It's during the first two seasons that I mostly noticed it, but yes, she does. It's only for a second or two. As I said, I hadn't noticed in in earlier viewings, but this time around I am noticing it. And she does look out at the audience regularly after someone delivers a laugh line. I love her on this show, and was surprised to see her do these things, especially since she didn't do it as Laura Petrie. As I said, she's so likable that it's not really distracting, but I wouldn't have expected it.

Then you posted "receipts" and are now claiming you only mentioned it once, and everyone else is a bitch who doesn't make sense.

Add to that all the complaints you had about how Mary was some basic uneducated bitch who didn't know how to do her job, and you've been a HUGE fucking downer in this whole thread.

Oh my, R470, one more time: I mentioned the subject once when I started the thread. I responded to a couple of posters' claims that she didn't *ever* look at the camera. Answering people doesn't equal me bringing the subject up again. I was participating in the thread that I created by addressing some replies to what I originally said. For fun, I showed an example of what I was referring to. That's all there is to this. Stop creating problems where there aren't any.

Also, you think I've been "a downer" in this thread? I've enjoyed this thread very much and was glad other people replied to it. Again, the thread was meant to be fun and interesting. Also, I expressed how much I love MTM and the show, and I never described her in any way but glowing terms. You've really misunderstood things.

I blocked the Mary Looks At The Camera All The Time troll eons ago. It's mentally ill and my life is too short for that shit.

Move on. The rest of us don't care.

MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY! MARY!

This is why we can't have nice things.

May I suggest this service for some of you on this thread.

How big was Ted Baxter’s dick? Did it look at the camera?

Mary is not looking at the camera in OP's "receipts."

Thanks, OCD Spectrum Hag, for killing the thread

Ummm, I think some people do not understand what "looks at the camera" means. Usually it means looking right at the lens.

Mary does not do that at all in R462 's examples. She maybe looks that the base of the camera, maybe the side. But she does not look into the lens, so anyone working in film or television would be baffled by the claims that she is looking at the camera.

[quote] William DeVane who was reportedly the runner up had no chemistry because they couldn't be funny.

Oh I disagree. Anyone who watched Knots Landing knew Devane had a wicked sense of humor and good delivery. Was a he a comic actor, no. But he could play comedy and understood timing.

R463- This is not unusual. I met some Bewitched queen who was OBSESSED with every aspect of the show and even built a replica of the Stephen's house on Morning Glory Circle.

In the video at R462, I was surprised to hear Ted refer the The New Yorker when listing magazines Mary should submit her essay to. I doubt Ted's character would have ever read that magazine and that he would think of it off the top of his head.

I've started watching the last season and in the first few episodes, I'm starting to think that it would have been interesting had Mary and Mr. Grant started a relationship. They have very good chemistry, and it would be realistic in real life for these two characters to fall in love at this time in their lives. I haven't seen it yet this time around, but I know there's an episode where they do date and end up laughing at the absurdity, but I think the storyline could have worked had they treated that idea more seriously in the writing room.

I wanted Lou Grant inside me quite deeply.

One thing I think they got right, probably unintentionally, is Mary’s dating evolution. Earlier seasons every man seemed to be falling at her feet. She had pick of the litter and was even turning down proposals. By the end, she was willing to settle for a guy that was basically cheating on her, tried dating her long time, scruffy boss etc.. Options are more limited as we get older because the dating pool decreases. So I think it was realistic.

I agree about Brenda. She was what they intended to make Rhoda. I’m glad they didn’t succeed, think it would’ve too much of a downer on MTM. I just wish Rhoda wasn’t such a second fiddle to Mary when it never made sense. Although it’s all about confidence, which Mary had and Rhoda didn’t.

I wanted Lou Grant to be outside me. Very far outside me. Ed Asner was not an attractive man.

Lou and Mary absolutely would have been a terrible couple. She could never call him anything but Mr. Grant and to him, he hated spunk. Now Lou and Rhoda was something you could imagine.

The episode at the end where Murray fantasizes he was with Mary was weird.

I did like the way they handled Lou and Mary - there was a minute where they thought, should we? And....they laughed and thought better of it.

Rhoda was far spunkier than Mary.

Nobody looks into the camera like the characters on The Office and Modern Family do.

I see what the poster is saying but I don't see it as Mary looking into the camera.

The conceit in the British version of The Office is that they are all being filmed for a documentary — so the characters are aware of the camera, and do often react to something stupid Brent does by looking directly into the lens. (I I have never seen the US version of the show).

That is what “looking at / into the camera” means - the person being filmed looks or glances directly into the lens and thus makes virtual eye-contact with the viewer. It breaks the fourth wall and is disruptive to the viewer, so in the conventions of “filmic realism” for fictional works it is avoided. Sometimes there is one character/narrator who does it regularly - but that’s a “non-realistic” storytelling style.

Inexperienced actors frequently do this unintentionally. it is usually caught by the cameraman and a retake is done or it is cut around during editing. One real problem comes when it is done by a background extra on lower budget productions that have less coverage.

What Mary is doing in the clip posted above isn’t really looking into/at the camera. Her character has a consistent way of silently reacting that involves staring straight ahead to avoid eye-contact with the person who has just said something ridiculous. Given that the audience is supposed to see her reaction, and that it is best conveyed in a head-on shot, it takes skill to not end up looking right into the lens - she usually also looks down slightly to avoid it; but she is obviously looking in the direction of the camera that has a front shot in a way that an actor in a single camera film would almost never be required to do.

[quote] I've started watching the last season and in the first few episodes, I'm starting to think that it would have been interesting had Mary and Mr. Grant started a relationship.

Mary and Lou did try it (not sex, though). In one of the later seasons. Mary cooks Lou a home-cooked dinner. They try to kiss and realize there's no romantic chemistry.

[quote] One thing I think they got right, probably unintentionally, is Mary’s dating evolution. Earlier seasons every man seemed to be falling at her feet. She had pick of the litter and was even turning down proposals. By the end, she was willing to settle for a guy that was basically cheating on her[] ...

I think you're talking about the Ted Bissell (That Girl) boyfriend. That relationship was downright depressing, but realistic.

R418 I thought Julie Kavner was very funny on Rhoda. Julie got laughs from delivering what seemed to be straight lines. The episodes during the five seasons of Rhoda were very uneven as the show kept trying to find its way over and over again, but in most episodes, I got some laughs from the way Julie Kavner delivered her lines. It seemed perfectly right to me that someone who can get laughs from straight lines became a voice actor. I also felt that Valerie was immensely supportive letting Julie get plenty of laughs. Valerie often smiled and chuckled when Julie delivered her funny lines. How many top bananas would do that for a second banana?

I could not stand Rhoda’s mother. I also thought Rhoda acted insufferably smug to Brenda after she got married, but at the same time she was so insecure around Joe that he was constantly reassuring her.

Also, there was such an age difference between Rhoda and Brenda. But nobody seemed to think anything of it.

I liked Nancy Walker a lot when I was a kid, she was on game shows and guest starred a lot, but she was a LOT to take on "Rhoda" and I ended up disliking her somewhat after a few episodes. She was funnier when she guested on MTM.

[quote]Lou was always in his office, you’d think he would have to attend tons of meetings.

In the olden days managers didn't go to meetings all the time; they did work. It seems really novel now but it increased the available manpower considerably. It also meant that when they gave YOU work they had a fair idea how long it should take you to do it efficiently and thus didn't give you stupid deadlines.

Maybe the company execs went to meetings all day, but not just heads of sections like Lou. The number of meeting rooms in the average office suite has increased by several hundred percent since the 70s.

R483, that kind of thing is the KISS OF DEATH for TV shows.

[quote]I got some laughs from the way Julie Kavner delivered her lines

I got some CRINGE from the way Julie Kavner delivered her lines in that fake New York accent.

Regarding the posters who find the brash way Rhoda was played by Harper in the first few seasons, and later the character traits displayed by Ida and Brenda unrealistic — do you know anybody who grew up there (or Brooklyn & Queens) during the first 3/4 of the twentieth century? Jewish / Italian / Puerto Rican — there are plenty of older New Yorkers just like them.

I'll be the 500th post in thanking you all for making this thread so fun and interesting, and for sharing my musings on this wonderful show that is bringing me joy on re-viewing it after all these years.

And for the poster who became enraged and eventually verbally abusive at the idea that Mary sometimes looked into the camera, please get help.

xo

[quote] Do you know anybody who grew up there (or Brooklyn & Queens) during the first 3/4 of the twentieth century?

R499 Yeah, my parents, and that's why I find the Morgensterns so funny!

Would anyone consider Bea Arthur’s “hard stare” on Maude as looking into the camera?

[quote] and even built a replica of the Stephen's house

Oh, dear!

Why, what do people from Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens act/sound like, now? I don't live there but I used to have many friends from there - just assumed it was still the same in the last 1/4 or the 20th century and today.

*of* the 20th century.

R504 - Brooklyn and Queens are very large places, larger than Manhattan. The Bronx is pretty big too. You have to specify the section of each.

R506 I'm referring to what other people were posting, maybe you should ask them to specify. It's a whole topic on the thread. I'm asking if things aren't that way any more, what are they like, now.? If they didn't specify the sections, how can I?

[quote]All the fat jokes about Rhoda when she wasn't fat at all.

Did anyone except Rhoda, every say Rhoda was fat?

Mary Tyler Moore smoked worse than a chimney which also couldn't have helped her health but would explain why she was so thin.

[quote]Regarding Rhonda living in a tiny apartment, she could still live near Mary and have an apartment with a kitchen or at least room for a couch and chair. I don't know why the writers had her living in a bare-bones attic. She wasn't a college student, she was a 30 year old professional.

Rhoda was from NYC, she expected apartments to be small.

Its like in Chicago, go to the "grand old" hotels in the Loop, you get tiny hotel rooms. Venture out to the Magnificent Mile, the rooms, costing the same are much larger.

"If These Knishes Could Talk" might be interesting for you guys asking about NY accents. Apparently, it's kind of disappearing or at least toning down.

Sad.

[quote]And for the poster who became enraged and eventually verbally abusive at the idea that Mary sometimes looked into the camera, please get help.

Pot, meet kettle.

[quote]Mary Tyler Moore smoked worse than a chimney which also couldn't have helped her health but would explain why she was so thin.

Or maybe the fact that she had Type 1 diabetes explained why she was so thin. Plenty of fat people smoke.

R502 The weird obsessive probably would.

And actually, if anything, what Bea did on "Maude" was closer to what that OCD bitch was complaining about - Bea DID deadpan at/for the audience sometimes. Maybe not always looking directly at the camera, but that was a very theatrical trick she would use, to pause and give time for the audience to either laugh at what someone else just said, or laugh in anticipation of how she'd respond.

And Bea was brilliant at doing it. Her deadpans, and her comic timing, were FLAWLESS.

R504 - I’m the poster that specified the 20th cent date range. I do think the accent is lessening amongst us natives. My grandparents had stronger accents than my parents do (although they still have very recognizable nyc accents) as do many of my generation (Gen X) but again it’s somewhat less strong.

Pete Davidson grew up in my old neighborhood and I think he’s representative of younger people - he’s got an accent, but it’s really not like the old school one Archie Bunker had. Collin Jost grew up there too, but he’s probably worked loose it - a lot has to do with class & education. When a random cop or fireman gets interviewed on the news they have a very distinct accent that almost seems to have as much to to with the instructional cultures of the job as with where they grew up.

While there were also differences by borough and white ethnicity, those are diminishing as well - while midwesterners used to think that New Yorkers “sound Jewish” there was a big difference between Joe Pesci & Jackie Mason that you don’t hear any more. Educated middle class manhattanites of my parents generation 70s - 80s still have an accent while those in their 40s and especially 30s now are more likely to have that awful (to my ears) uptalk / vocal fry thing or more of an uptight NPR way of speaking.

^^ institutional cultures of the job. (They don’t teach the accent at the academy but it almost seems like they do)

[quote]What single, twenty-something New Yorker moves alone to Minneapolis? That was perplexing.

On the MTM show, when Rhoda is helping Mary with WJM's election coverage, she says "People say, Rhoda, why Minneapolis? And I reply, 'why not?'."

[quote]I assume he either took the Evanston Express (as it was then called) or the Ravenswood (ditto) and transferred to the Red Line (can't remember what it was called), getting off somewhere around Bryn Mawr or Granville. Do you know exactly which building he lived in on Sheridan?

Emily states on at least two occasions I can recall, their zip code is 60611, which would put their home in the Streeterville area

60611 is bound by Division Ave (north side), Lake Michigan (on the east side), State Street (west side) and the Chicago River (south side)

In real life the building Bob lived in, is off of Thorndale at the Red Line. I've been in it and of course the condos are much different in terms of floor plans.

[quote]Our Miss Brooks and Ann Sothern come to mind, as well as Sally Rogers on the Van Dyke show.

Ann Sothern was always different. Neither of her TV characters was desperate to get a man, like Sally Rogers or Miss Brooks. Sothern played characters that were strong and career oriented, not just killing time till a man came along. Even Sally said, she'd give up the "glamour" of show biz to get married.

The difference was Katie / Susie may have ran after a man but the men also ran after her and met her half way.

[quote]IIRC there are standard union rates for voice work, actors whose faces are never seen, and those who do face camera.

When asked why she agreed to do "My Mother The Car," Sothern said, "It's radio work for TV money."

[quote]If they did a reboot of MTM, Rhoda would be black.

MadTV did this. In their spoof, Rhoda is black and called "Rhodesia." Check out the guy playing Ted. He does a GREAT impression

R519: It was always implied she'd have a fling with the Don Porter characters if he was in to it.

[quote]Wasn't Lars supposed to be Swedish? Possibly Norwegian

Yes, Swedish. In the episode where Lars has his relatives over, Phyllis says they are talking about her in Swedish. Mary, naturally asks, how does she know if she doesn't speak Swedish.

Phyllis says you don't have to speak Swedish, when someone stares at you, shakes their head and says "Gud helfen Lars." But the way Chloris says it, it sounds more German than Swedish.

[quote]I agree. I would think that Rhoda would have more success in her profession in NYC. She seemed to have a dead-end life going on there in Minneapolis.

Perhaps but Rhoda would have a hell of a lot more competition in New York City.

[quote]I would expect Rhoda made close to minimum wage, which in 1969 was pretty low, especially for women, and especially for people without a college degree like Rhoda.

No, Rhoda made more money than Mary. And Rhoda went to art school so she did post high school work.

^ Rhoda stayed in that shitty apartment because she had a crush on Mary?

R518 the building shown on TV is in the 60660 zip.

[quote]I would think that Rhoda would have more success in her profession in NYC.

Yes, but she figured she'd keep better in Minneapolis.

R519 I agree with you generally except "Neither of her TV characters was desperate to get a man, like Sally Rogers or Miss Brooks." Connie Brooks wasn't always desperate to get a man, she was interested in one man, Mr. Boynton, with whom she was in love - which is a lot different from Sally Rogers.

I have to say, though, I don't always understand the scorn that's directed by feminists at a character like Miss Brooks, just because she was getting older and wanted a husband and family. It's as if a career should be an emotional substitute for love, marriage, parenthood - and marital sex. I think a lot of this narrative is lesbian-driven, tbh.

Bob and Emily lived at 5901 N Sheridan and he would have taken the Red Line at Thorndale to go to his downtown office.

That was cute, R521.

@ r528, "Neither of her TV characters was desperate to get a man, like Sally Rogers "

Hey, what about me?...

R529: we established the address upthread and that he didn't actually take the Red Line in the opening credits.

These old fashioned female characters were "desperate to find a man" so they could quit their shitty jobs and be supported by him and live the ideal suburban married family life. Or, not look like the pathetic single "girl" nobody wanted. I found that shit so embarrassing. Mary Richards was a breath of fresh air.

R533 Yeah great except she probably never got married and spent her life overworking and doing a lot of lonely stuff in her off hours to compensate for her lack of love. Nobody looks at the downside because of the feminist brainwashing!

Well, R534, that's a lot better than becoming a fat alcoholic suburban pig with a dumb husband who can't hold a job.

R535 But enough abnout your parents

r529 It's a dump today.

R536, I'm betting you think sitcoms are real life?

R529 - and WHAT a DUMP!

R533- In the very first episode of Mad Men set in 1960 Joan says that to Peggy. If you're lucky you'll meet a guy get married and move to the suburbs.

[quote]Bob and Emily lived at 5901 N Sheridan and he would have taken the Red Line at Thorndale to go to his downtown office.

No, that is where THE ACTUAL BUILDING is. Emily states clearly Bob and her live in zip code 60611, which is Streeterville.

[quote]Connie Brooks wasn't always desperate to get a man, she was interested in one man, Mr. Boynton, with whom she was in love - which is a lot different from Sally Rogers.

That changed as the TV series progressed, but in the radio series you're right, she wanted Mr Boynton who was played be the sexy (by 40a standards) Jeff Chandler, who continued to do the role after he became a start but did eventually leave.

[quote]It was always implied she'd have a fling with the Don Porter characters if he was in to it.

Correct, which proves Susie/Katie were not chasing. Since Don Porter wasn't available for the first half of the "Ann Sothern Show," Katie expected, correctly to be be promoted from asst manager to manger, which of course didn't happen and Don Porter returned.

Of course, Sothern was into her late 40s / 50s so that made a direct comparison with Marlo Thomas and Mary Tyler Moore not apt.

[quote]Phyllis must've been really crappy b/c I don't remember anything about it and we haven't had any threads about it.

The first year was dull, mostly because of Richard Schaal, which whom I never liked. Then Barbara Colby's murder didn't help. Her replacement was the always capable Liz Torres.

The second year found Phyllis working for a SF councilman, and brought a change for the character. Phyllis was previously a highly educated woman but without any real skills. Here she was mostly competent as an admin.

Mother Dexter was brought in at the end of season one and quickly stole the show. LIterally, there was no real reason to tune in except to see her.

Lars's mother was played by Jane Rose as sort of a "Gracie Allen type," with her new husband Jonathan played by Henry Jones, best known to Datalounge as Leroy from the movie, "The Bad Seed." Jones played a judge who wanted to be alone with his new wife in his house and wound up being the voice of reason (along with Bess) to a house of crazies.

Judith Lowry guest starred in an early episode as Jonathan's mother, Sally Dexter. She was so well received by viewers that by the end of the first year Lowry became a regular when Mother Dexter joined the household.

Halfway through the second season, Mother Dexter got married to Arthur, played by Burt Munstin, who was in pretty much every other thing in Hollywood.

Then Jane Rose was ill and had her air time limited, this increased the roles of Mother Dexter and Bess. Lisa Gerristern only wanted a limited part in Phyllis and she was put in more storylines. By the spring of the last season both Munstin and Lowry died in real life.

The real problem was Phyllis was never a likable character. The other characters on the MTM show didn't like her with only Mary and her daughter Bess, even tolerating her in small bit. When she moved to her own show, her co-stars, which were all good in their roles, didn't like her either.

They needed to have changed Phyllis to have her likable. They did this to Thelma Harper, who on the Carol Burnett skits was a nasty piece of work, and did almost a 180 in terms of her likability.

The highlight of Phyllis was at Mother Dexter's wedding when Phyllis did exactly the same thing she did at Rhoda's wedding, forgetting to pick up the bride (see link below). Of course Mother Dexter doesn't let her get away with it, like Rhoda did.

[quote]They made it clear in the later seasons that George and Tom were best friends.

You're not wrong but it seemed that Tom was George's only friend.

[quote]I get that Lars wouldn't have been wealthy, but surely a dermatologist was at least middle class, even in the '70s.

I always got the feeling Lars was doing well but Phyllis was spending it faster than Lars made it.

One of my favorite lines is when Phyllis tells Mary and Rhoda that Lars fills in at the ER for extra money.

Rhoda) When a person comes in with a broken arm, Lars tells him not to scratch it.

[quote]Mary would let the audience see her smile at the rotten things Phyllis, Sue Ann and Ted said to her. It showed she could take a joke and made their obnoxious characters more likable.

That is one thing I loved about Dick Van Dyke's show was that when it was appropriate to laugh (like when Buddy insults Mel) the other characters laughed along.

r544

I could watch Phyllis getting it all day and night. It was the funniest part of the series.

[quote]Mary was the straight man / woman most of the time. She probably wished she could actually get the laughs like the rest of the actors (Ted, Rhoda, Lou, even Phyllis). I don't know how funny Mary was.

Jack Benny was asked a similar question about letting his co-star have the best lines and Jack said, "Let me put it to you this way, every Monday morning, at the water cooler, no one talks about the 'Rochester Show'."

[quote]Look, Mary HAD to move.

Perhaps but why such a bland, generic one? On "I Love Lucy," Lucy moved to a two bedroom in the same building. The flats were almost the same with only some minor placement differences here and there.

[quote]Burt Munstin

His name was Burt Mustin.

I can still remember an exchange between Rhoda and her mother. Rhoda asks about her parents' financial situation. Nancy Walker says, sotto voce, "We're comfortable." Rhoda exclaims, "MY GOD! I'M AN HEIRESS!"

Hazel Frederick was a total bitch. She used to edit the IMDB and put her name in as being in every single episode of the "Mary Tyler Moore Show," which I guess in theory was true.

I discovered recently that Joyce Builfant, the actress who played Marie was married to both James Macarthur and William Asher (and had three other marriages). It just seems odd that she was married to both Danno and Elizabeth Montgomery's older ex-husband.

That bitch Bulifant then stole my husband, R554.

R542 Jeff Chandler was only sexy by 40s standards??

[quote] I discovered recently that Joyce Builfant, the actress who played Marie was married to both James Macarthur and William Asher (and had three other marriages). It just seems odd that she was married to both Danno and Elizabeth Montgomery's older ex-husband.

Joyce wrote a book called "My Four Hollywood Husbands." All four were alcoholics, Joyce said. What a ditz.

R541 Sorry, I'd have to think Emily just messed up her line and gave the wrong zip code. Bob clearly takes the Ravenswood "L" heading north towards Edgewater, not south towards Streeterville. Plus, the actor actually grew up about a mile from Edgewater, so that would make more sense. Checkmate.

[quote]Jeff Chandler was only sexy by 40s standards??

Polka dots were popular in the '40s, but Jeff was too big for polka dots.

The Ravenswood doesn't go to Edgewater. The bridge crossings in the opening sequence clearly make no sense.

R588 - take it from an editor who works in film & tv production - real world geography has almost nothing to do with how sequences are shot and put together — especially true in the opening montages of old sitcoms. The goal is to create a sense of the location in the mind of the audience

Locations and shots are chosen for aesthetic and compositional reasons, screen direction is used to create rhythmic flow or syncopated energy between shots; exterior establishing locations are selected for their look, and if clearance for use is obtainable and within budget. Nobody involved cares, or even gives a thought to any of this making actual logical sense to the small fraction of the audience who is familiar with the area.

The fact that you think Suzanne Pleshette actually screwed up her line rather than the fact nobody involved in the production gave a shit about some anal, overly literal minded Chicago queen’s pedantic nitpicking shows how delusional you are. Check. And Mate.

R561 thinks a lot of himself.

R561 is right. Newhart himself was from Chicago, but even with his accounting background he probably wouldn't have cared if the zip code was right or whether the opening continuity made any sense.

R561 is spot-on and I want R561 to fuck me right here and now.

Also a fan of R561. But I do wish it hadn't been established that the Hartleys lived in 60611--though I don't remember that fact myself. I like the idea of Bob living where that building is, right on the lake and on Sheridan Road. It seems like a real place a psychologist and a teacher would live.

r565

No, it is not an upscale area. Bob had a PhD, and his wife had a degree too. They could afford better than Thorndale area.

R561 Sorry, Princess, you're wrong again. So you work in film and tv production, and you'll confirm that actors NEVER make a mistake with their lines and editors ALWAYS catch any mistakes? LOL Go back to school because your online degree is crap. You can clearly see Uptown Federal Savings in the opening which is, of course, just a stop or two before Bob would have exited the train in Edgewater. He could have taken the Red Line from downtown or the Brown Line and transfer to the Red Line at Belmont.

Checkmate, lisping loser.

The lake is very different from the other side of Sheridan. A friend of mine lived a few blocks South. Her building was worlds away from the next block.

Good god R567, opening credits video in many shows has no relation to reality. 🙄

What should really piss you off is that on Newhart they used unused footage from On Golden Pond, which was shot in……..New Hampshire. 🙀🙀

Oh..and for Married With Children they used footage from Vacation. You can see the station wagon in some shots.

R567, there is a life outside of your mother's basement and you really should investigate it.

R561 is absolutely right.

People are fighting about Chicago? I mean Chicago, can you imagine?

What happened with Ted Bessel? It seemed like they were setting him up to be Mary's regular beau and then he goes away for 2 weeks never to be heard from again.

Did audiences not like him or was it a network/producers decision to dump him?

I never noticed he is also named Joe and is in construction just like Rhoda's Joe. Bad omen. Rhoda's marriage and show was falling apart during the time Bessel would have been on MTM. Strange decision they made.

And his cheating and Mary taking him back so goes against her character. I wonder if MTM put her foot down and had him let go.

R573, I was a kid when the show aired originally and I thought it was weird that Mary Richards was dating Ann Marie's boyfriend who had the same name as Rhoda's husband. WTF?

Was it really cheating Joe did or were he and Mary under different impressions over what their relationship was? E.g. Ross and Rachel 'we were on a break.'

I just watched the episode the other day. MTM says I realize why haven't made a commitment BUT how could you do that?

Plus she had just told him she loves him and he responds thanks.

I do like who the three guys discuss the kind of guy Mary should end up with and Ted says he pictures her with Clark Kent, shy, unassuming.

[quote]Joyce wrote a book called "My Four Hollywood Husbands." All four were alcoholics, Joyce said. What a ditz.

It sounds like the complete title should have been, "My Four Hollywood Husbands, and How I Drove Them to Drink."

As I've said in this thread, I've been re-watching this show after many years and am greatly enjoying it as if it's the first time I've seen it. I'm in the 7th season now and it's funnier than I would have expected because the only other sitcoms I used to watch (Cheers, Roseanne, Friends) were very funny the first 5 seasons only, and unwatchable after that. (My opinion only, no one has to argue this point with me.) I assumed the 5-year mark is when a show just runs out of ideas and loses its great humor, but this show actually maintained its quality. Nice.

It's one of the reasons that MTM gave for ending the show after seven seasons, R577. The ratings were still good, but she said, in effect, that she would rather end it when people still wanted more than to have the show wear out its welcome. Maybe she meant it, but I also suspect she was ready to try something new at that point.

She later said it wasn't her decision. The producers wanted to move on and she was concerned having new producers would harm the show so she ended it. She regretted that it didn't go longer.

I think that is why it kept up its quality. The show had the same creative team with some exceptions for its whole run.

At least we aren't arguing about Bob Newhart's TV address any more. That was as interesting as watching paint dry.

I thought MTM went WAY down in quality after Rhoda and Phyllis left, and the last season was dreck, relatively speaking. Other shows' last seasons are far worse.

Mary's best season was 5, when she was still living in the old apartment and the show turned its focus on the newsroom after Rhoda left. I loved Rhoda but her absence forced the writers to come up with refreshing new ideas. Even the few eps about Phyllis were among the best.

Season 6 was pretty good, too.

But Season 7 was awful, and I can see why they ended the show after running out of ideas. Perhaps the nadir was the episode when Murray, Lou and Ted dream about being married to Mary. It's an insipid idea and painful to watch.

[quote]At least we aren't arguing about Bob Newhart's TV address any more. That was as interesting as watching paint dry.

Let's not start that up again.

[quote] Plus she had just told him she loves him and he responds thanks.

The dating episode(s) with Ted Bissell were depressing. Not only was he fucking other women, but he says "thanks" in response to "I love you." That would have been OK, but then Mary decides that was good enough for her. OMG. Depressing. I realize real life is that way, but as someone mentioned above, Mary started out as cheerleader / prom queen with men, left and right, wanting to date her.

There was an episode involving a politician who wanted to date Mary, but kept cancelling due to emergencies. Mary said enough; if this is how he's treating me at the beginning, what's it like when he's taking me for granted. That was realistic without making Mary look like a haggard loser.

Ugh R584, the Ted Bessel and the wombat on his head episode was on this afternoon. The writers needed to be caned for that episode! Even tired, old alcoholic Mary deserved better than that.

Bob Newhart was interviewed by Conan O'Brien in 2017 and when they talked about his commute to/from home, Bob said the train station near his office "is about 55 blocks from our apartment" which would put him in Edgewater, not Streeterville. Emily may have said they lived in the 60611 zip code area, but that's not possible since the farthest that zip code goes is to the river, about 45 blocks short of the "55 blocks" Bob said his office was from his home.

Again, checkmate bitches.

I always thought the original Bob Newhart show was set in Amarillo, Texas!

It was R587. Bob took the Yellow Line.

😉

Is there really a North Weatherly Street in Minneapolis?

^ Only in TV Land

Mary Tyler Moore didn't want the show to end, but she was somewhat open to considering it if there were solid reasons. But in the end, she wanted her show to continue and thought there were more story lines to explore.

But I read an interview where Mary said several people on the show wanted to do other things like create other shows and work in movies. Like anybody in a long-term job, you often start thinking of doing other things, making more money...and in show business, probably making movies and becoming part of the Hollywood big leagues. They were a talented team and movies are the next logical step.

Being a huge MTM fan, I wanted it to continue forever. Best show ever. Ever.

I wonder if James L. Brooks ever considered Mary for Terms of Endearment. I think she may have been able to handle it. She showed dramatic force in Ordinary People obviously but it is a later performance in Gore Vidal's Lincoln that makes me think she could have handled Aurora.

She would have been less annoying than Maclaine.

Spot-on, R593. Aurora needed to be a character to be laughed AT, not WITH. Moore would have brought too much natural empathy to the role. She could play brittle, but Maclaine played it better,

Mary wanted to end the show. Her "regret" was just revisionism on her part when her varitey series ended.

MTM envisioned herself as TV's Lucy O'Ball, whereas she would just on series after the next. When that didn't happen she looked for a cop out.

The year end ranks were:

22 (1971)

10 (1972)

7 (1973)

9 (1974)

11 (1975)

19 (1976)

39 (1977)

As you can see the ratings were collapsing. It was time for it go.

Bob Newhart also wanted to end his show in 1977 with Emily's pregnancy. CBS convinced him to do another year, which was a ratings disaster and of course Emily's pregnancy was rewritten into a dream and of course, like MTM, Bob and Emily moved to a new apartment.

I never realized the dream pregnancy episode was originally meant to be real and a finale. I remember my mom did not like either Mary or the Hartley's new apartment or Emily's longer hair in the final season.

I was in a Betty White youtube rabbit hole when she died, and there was an interview where she felt the show could have gone longer, but Mary really wanted to do a variety show and ended it. In retrospect, probably not the right decision to do the variety show did not exactly take America by storm, but it was probably time to end the MTM show. Maybe they could have done another year, if they cast the right person to be a long time boyfriend and really focus on Mary dealing with being in a relationship after being single for so long. Besides Don Hollinger, she never really had a boyfriend for more than a show and it had been a good 7 years since she broke up with her last long-term boyfriend which triggered her moving to New York. However, I am guessing the audience did not want to see that and the ratings would have continued to fall.

Bob Newhart Bob Newhart Bob Newhart

START ANOTHER FUCKING THREAD!

Jennifer Jones owned Terms Of Endearment and wanted to play Aurora, she hired James L. Brooks to adapt it and he talked her out of acting in it.

[quote]Jennifer Jones owned Terms Of Endearment and wanted to play Aurora, she hired James L. Brooks to adapt it and he talked her out of acting in it.

So James L. Brooks was the Gary Morton of Jennifer Jones's career.

There were some lines on "Postcards from the Edge" that I can see / hear Mary (instead of Shirley) deliver:

[quote] You are jealous because I can drink and you can't take drugs any longer. I can handle it and you can't.

[quote] Handle it? How do you handle it?

[quote] My drinking does not interfere with my work.

Meow.

[quote]Mary really wanted to do a variety show and ended it.

Strange because a variety show was being done to perfection on the same network and aired on the same night as MTM show, i.e., The Carol Burnett Show. There wasn't room nor need for another one. What was Mary thinking?

I do think they ended the show at the right time, though.