HBO's the Gilded Age: thread three

I thought the consensus was that this series is a real stinker. Are we in agreement to shun this show, or not?

Gays would make terrible Amish.

[quote]Gays would make terrible Amish.

Truer words were never spoken, at least so far today.

I haven’t seen it yet and I haven’t read the other threads, but I understand there is an adorable Cavalier? Is the dog worth watching at least?

Based on comments on the previous thread, I watched a couple of episodes of Alienist last night.

So fucking dark. But they do seem to get the details of the Gilded Age better. Especially the disparity in living conditions.

I can't believe that had a very long scene in a pedo boy brothel. That was really disturbing.

R4 So funny, I watched three episodes myself and it was just as good as I remembered and so much about what I want this show to be. Especially those shots of inside buildings with only daylight streaming through the building. I think they really only turned on the lights at dusk.

There was something so off about the lampshades...

[quote] pedo boy brothel?

Well, NOW you've got DL's attention!

I think the last poster on the previous thread is on the money about the lawyer Mr. Raikes-he may be gorgeous but he is not to be trusted.

After two episodes, I'm done with this. Dreadful, anachronistic writing; hamfisted plotting; uneven acting (but mostly bad); waaaay too much CGI, etc. A shame, really, since there are so many actors in it who have been terrific in other things. I did amuse myself during Streep, Jr. 3's scenes casting a concert version of Sweeney Todd with this cast, several of whom have already been in it -- Baranski, Cerveris, McDonald have all been in it to my knowledge, and I'd bet Claybourne Elder has, too.

And Douglas Sills (the French chef) has done it, too, I bet. Gorgeous voice.

R9 Well, we know he's been in Eric Rosen, at least. That's probably enough of a horror show!

I'll be dead long before it's over.

The consensus is thank you for starting a new thread.

The horniest couple on TV? We never see him naked, for chrissakes.

If there's CGI in Alienist, it's far better.

[quote]If there's CGI in Alienist, it's far better.

No, they really went back in time and filmed NYC before the Statue of Liberty was finished. [eye roll]

Anyway, the reason we don't talk much about the young hot lawyer is he's not that hot.

Where can one stream The Alienist? If it was stated in the former thread, my apologies for asking again.

Netflix, R18.

R16, let's go far enough in the future where you're no longer with us.

R19 Actually No, not anymore, but surprisingly it’s on HBO, which I wonder was because of GA they thought there would be interest in it. Also, Xfinity had the first three episodes free on their app.

I'm disappointed that the token gay seems like a high society Thomas, kind of shady and ambitious. My guess is, Agnes late husband was also gay, that's why the bad marriage is so secretive. The new/old money story is so boring, I just want to see the small characters and their stories.

I'm wondering if Agnes's late husband physically abused her.

Can we all at least agree on one thing? It’s a damn sight better than And Just Like That!

The lack of male eye candy being put on display is quite off-putting... very disappointed thus far. If we don't see the two gay guys who made out in episode 1 in a nude fuckfest scene next episode, I may just give up on this show.

R25, you don’t think the lawyer is good looking? I think he’s very handsome, if a bit bland.

R23, I kinda thought that too.

I'm hoping for a special musical episode.

Why do all of the guys play their roles as if they are gay? I was starting to think this is a Gilded Queer as Folk, but with fugly men. Not one guy is scorching hot, which sort of defeats the purpose of these escapist dramas. All the guys, save for the lawyer and older men, are twinks. No one's face is above average.

Clearly, they have tons of money so why did they hire such plane actors. Also, the can't even fucking act. It's been Daytime Soap level line reading. So, no hot guys, and the guys they did hire can't act for shit.

And, what in the ever living fuck do they have Mrs. Russell wearing? It doesn't make sense for the time period. If you're gonna go modern at least make it look good. This looks like a runway disaster.

R29 be like;

bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer.

Repeat, times infinity. Mary, you sound insufferable, pretentious, and shallow, as you only offer, cheap dime-a-dozen, insults.

bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer. bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer bitch bitch bitch yammer yammer yammer.

You make me laugh, R29

[quote] "they hire such plane actors".

If we are straying a bit into other period dramas, “The Knick” did an amazing job of recreating that era, it was really beautiful what they achieved.

[quote] why did they hire such plane actors.

Because all of NY’s train actors were already booked.

It’s very difficult to make that period of dress not look heavy and like it’s a bunch of upholstery strapped on bodies. The costumer is doing a terrific job with Coon’s dresses.

I hate it even more. The "I am going to shut down the bazaar by buying it all"-storyline was so lame and contrived. Louisa Jacobson delivers her lines like a robot. She is awful. How on earth did she get that job?

Do they still do screen tests?

And I hate the opening CGI with that fake porcelain (or plaster or whatever it is) "The Gilded Age" title.

Were those outer bustier type panels she (Coons) wears authentic to the period? (see link.) Seems not to me but maybe so.

She rocks that hat, though.

I'm enjoying it, even though Louisa Jacobson is fairly awful. The costumes are fantastic. I don't care if everything is authentically "period" or not; I understand this isn't a documentary. If you want a documentary, go watch a documentary and stop bitching about this show.

r37: NO! That bustier is a total invention. As is the matchy-matched squashed satin hat she wears with it.

Louisa can make it up a wall with a whole jar of spiders in her hand!

And that gay storyline in the first episode.... Clearly just crammed in to get the gays on their side. It was neither sexy nor convincing,

Jacobson is high school drama club awful. That’s probably unfair to drama club kids though.

Cynthia’s jacked teefs work well here but why is her Acting so mannered?

R41-I disagree. The thought of sucking Clay Elder's cock will keep me watching.

I'm still watching. This AJLT are the only things I'm making a point to watch. Some of the complaints about anachronistic language may be writers? Are they British or are they merely trying to make this more appealing to today's viewers?

Sometimes British writers don't do "American" well. See Laura Linney in Love Actually.

No, R41, I think it's to set up the sad fate or near miss of the Berthanator's daughter in a loveless marriage. Fellowes doesn't give a damn about gay storylines except to service plot.

^^^...and to gaybait the Gays so they'll keep watching.

It's all just warmed over Downton Abbey which was warmed over Trollope and Galsworthy but with anachronisms, flashy costumes and poor CGI.

I've been watching it little by little. The scenes with Baranski or Coons are fun enough to hold my attention, but Jacobson is impossibly dull. Benton is not that much better. Nixon's awkwardness works well for that character. Morgan Spector was hot on [italic]Person of Interest[/italic], so I'll keep on trying, because I want something new to watch.

R37, R39 That bizarre bustier looks like something from 'Barbarella' in the 60s.

[quote]It's all just warmed over Downton Abbey which was warmed over Trollope and Galsworthy but with anachronisms, flashy costumes and poor CGI.

Galsworthy didn't write about the aristocracy.

Galsworthy's criticism of the aristocracy.

BORING AS DIRT ON A BUG.

Lousy casting.....very slow.

Tick, tick, tick... 9 tonight, yes?

I’ll be ready with bells and whistles on.

I suspect a fair amount of us will be watching the figure skating.

I'm interning between my 1st and 2nd year of law school. The senior partner just placed on my cubicle desk handwritten notes he took himself while he was meeting with a wealthy client.

"Here's my meeting notes. Have a fully prepared research brief for me by next Tuesday. I'm going to the Keys for the weekend." and out the door he goes.

It's Thursday evening of a long July 4th on Monday weekend.

ooops^ sorry Gilded fans

If there's going to be a Season 2 they need to bring in Shonda Rhimes to shake things up a little bit.

Oh, God, talk about going from bad to worse. That acid trip on Netflix is enough of Shonda's shaking. It's like one big fantasy sequence from Mary Poppins.

R59, you mean The Gilded Age needs to be Bridgertoned? With Phyllicia Rashad as Lady Astor? No thanks.

For some of us The Gilded Age is already Bridgertoned and Shonda-ed.

Well. Entertaining to watch yet stupid when you reflect on it.

And why the hell didn't George take off his dressing gown when he climbed aboard $$ Bertha?

Does Coon take a valium before shooting her scenes? Her line readings are so flat, and she walks in those overdone gowns like she might fall over at any moment.

Wow. For those who thought the stakes were not high enough in previous episodes: the stakes in this episode were VERY high--literally life and death.

Will what happened have any resonances for the Russells, or will they be able to treat everyone this way with no repercussions?

Preposterous.

That's the word I've settled on for TGA.

It's an interesting choice that the female leads in the two primary tribes (Team Baranski, Team Bertha) have virtually nothing to do with each other, three episodes into ten. Very dramatic. Like two shows in one.

This show is literally 5/10. For every strength there is a corresponding weakness to mitigate it.

Well, r67, Agnes rarely leaves her fainting couch under any circumstances so how and why would she encounter Bertha? Baranski really doesn't have a very interesting role and she certainly isn't getting the Grantham Dowager zingers..

Those dreadfully written and directed scenes in the publishing house were soooooooooo predictable.

[quote] Preposterous. That's the word I've settled on for TGA.

Mary!

Spoken like a true dowager!

This was a good episode. Now I can’t wait until next week.

Jeez, you knew what was coming from practically the beginning. The telegraphing was monumental.

Another reason to bring in the Scandal creator. You never had any idea what kind of ridiculous outrageous nonsense was going to happen next on that show.

In his dressing gown while lying in repose with his fancy slippers, I suddenly realized who they've modeled George Russell after.

^ I adore John Singer Sargent.

In the previews for next week Katie O'Finneran (who looks like a cross between Laura Linney and Meryl Streep) appears at her husband's funeral. I'm wondering if they'll have to get rid of the character since now she's been left penniless by her husband's ruin.

I hope they keep Kelli O'Hara's character around, since she's terrific--she speaks in the Mid-Atlantic received Pronunciation flawlessly and comfortable, which you cannot say about all the other characters (Louisa Jacobson often sounds likes she had marbles in her mouth).

I love Denée Benton--she's very appealing and believable.

I just watched episode 3 after capitulating to insomnia here in the UK. It’s not getting any better. The characters are all pretty bland. They are just poorly written and fairly shallow. This was a problem in the first few series of Downton too, but the actors managed to do much more with what they had there, I think.

I don’t care about the downstairs characters at all yet. Not one of them seems real or interesting. Are they all going to have an issue of the week? Last week was gambling: now solved, so he cook retreats to the shadows again. This week: racism is bad.

Baranski is wasted. As someone else noted above, she has no Dowager-like zingers here, and spends most of her time sitting in the drawing room disapproving of one thing or another. She could play her part in her sleep. She did come alive a little when she spoke to Miranda’s suitor, and was touching when chatting to Miranda afterwards, but she’s a wonderful actress and really should have more to work with.

The one moment that really surprised me was Coons’ moment of triumph, when she avenges the insults against her. Her character came alive then.

I think part of the problem is that the actors don’t seem very comfortable with the costumes or language. The clothes seem to wear them rather than the other way about. And they all seem to be concentrating so obviously so hard on enunciating that they forget the emotions behind the words.

I really want this to get better. The time period is so interesting. But the plotting of the series is so obvious: you can see everything coming.

The CGI isn’t as bothersome anymore. I wish the storylines weren’t as predictable. Not sure if this is because Fellows isn’t very original or they’ve gone out of their way to dumb down the show. Overall I enjoyed this episode. Things aren’t quite there and may never get there, but it’s perfectly watchable if you let historical accuracy go. I even enjoyed Peggy’s storyline with the editor. It’s relatable to POC and women. Whatever choice you make in such a situation, it doesn't ever sit well with your soul.

America doesn't know how to do costume drama, we never do it unless it's for a movie and our actors are not trained enough to be confident doing it.

[quote]Does Coon take a valium before shooting her scenes? Her line readings are so flat, and she walks in those overdone gowns like she might fall over at any moment.

She's a fantastic actress, but I don't think she's realized a grasp of the character.

I wish Carrie Coon would find a way to make Bertha more likable. So far what have supposed to have been her "humiliations" have seemed like not so much of a big deal (why should the Knickerbocker women have gone to her "at home" when she gave them so little advance notice?), so she just seems evil and vengeful.

I would like both George and Bertha more if there were something more at stake for them than just social prestige (which seems so pointless since they're so ridiculously rich, and they will have nothing to do with their old friends). I'd like it if their son Larry died of typhoid or something to humanize them.

I love the concept of being "at home." In fact I just posted to grindr that I am "at home" for the rest of the evening.

At home AND receiving, r83?

Calling upon someone at such a late hour is not righteous nor pure.

I realize it must be ridiculously expensive to do outdoor scenes, but it would be nice to see characters other than just being at home or in parks, with a dozen extras standing and pointing and milling about.

We're enjoying it, see the faults; but they can be fixed. If the studio stays with it, it could be a lovely series. I agree with the "downstairs" comments- but giving it a chance because Downton became so wonderful..... Stay with it a little longer.

Now into the 3rd episode. Let’s face it, Meryl Daughter #3 is not improving. She’s terrible, and the first actor on television that I’ve encountered where I actually wince when she comes onscreen.

Who would have thought that Streep would spawn such an incapable (of acting) offspring?

[quote] Who would have thought that Streep would spawn such an incapable (of acting) offspring?

[raises hand, discreetly]

"Lil Streep is good. She's playing naive but sharp and willful and so far she's pretty real with no slapable corniness.

I've never seen Carrie Coons in anything but this show and based on her performance HERE, she's pretty ghastly. WHY is her performance and vocal so fucking flat? It's like she's bereft of any kind of dramatic heft or energy.

Streep Daughter the Third isn't getting any better. She's saddled with a dreary character but since the actress playing her is also dreary...

So many vaguely pretty but boring men in this show, all blandly handsome but also lacking any kind of ooomph or charisma or dramatic power. They all seem like mannequins in a very boring store department store.

The downstairs cast are ALL boring. Don't care about any of them. Oh, wait...there's the man hungry ladies maid for Carrie Coons. But, her role is stupidly written and the actress is so obvious.

The gay couple is also disappointing. Oscar is a bore and frankly, not appealing. How old is he supposed to be? The actor is like 40 but is the character also that age?

And the Adams boy is built like a stevedore.

Will the widow Morris shoot JR, uh, George in an episode ten cliffhanger?

No, honey.

Blake Ritson (Oscar) is 44 IRL, his character is supposed to be a recent college grad, right? He’s got a nice tight body, and his boyfriend Mr. Adams is built like a brick shithouse, not that I’m complaining.

They did show a guy picking up hose dung on the rich street, and the other streets had dung on them.

EW did an interview with the actors who played Patrick and Anne Morris about this episode that's interesting.

Will Cynthia Nixon be the first actress to have the dubious — but deserved — distinction of starring in two HBO shows canceled in their first season, in the same year?

How are the viewing figures for this in the US?

Lots of people seem to be watching "And Just Like that"--God only knows why.

I don't know how well "Gilded Age" is doing, but lots of eldergays harrumphing in high dudgeon on a gay web forum because the lampshades and bustles are incorrect for 1882 isn't going to close this show.

[quote]eldergays harrumphing in high dudgeon on a gay web forum because the lampshades and bustles are incorrect for 1882 isn't going to close this show.

We're not harrumphing in high dudgeon about cosmetics. The cosmetics are great.

We're taking issue with fundamental components of a drama series like casting, writing, and direction, all of which are often disappointing and in many instances rock-bottom terrible. Especially for a show that was in development for 12 years. And for HBO, no less.

This is HBO's Supertrain.

Expensive sets, high concept, lazy casting — oh, do we need scripts?

They should have just gotten the people who did Westworld to reimagine Supertrain. It would have been better than this.

[quote] Will Cynthia Nixon be the first actress to have the dubious — but deserved — distinction of starring in two HBO shows canceled in their first season, in the same year?

[quote] How are the viewing figures for this in the US?

The White Lotus didn't take off until three-quarters of the way into its first season, and it debuted with zero expectations. Nowhere near "this is the next Downton Abbey."

And many people who tuned it for episode two — like most DLers, I reckon — were wondering if it'd be as bad.

HBO has also never debuted big original series on Mondays. They were always about Sunday. So saying Gilded Age is their biggest Monday success is not saying much.

They can easily fix the show by just focusing on George Russell getting gang banged by a bunch of burly studs for an hour each week.

"The Gilded Age Prime Time Sodomy Good Time Hour" would be a huge hit.

So the reason they hate Mrs. Chamberlain is because she had a kid with her husband before they actually married? Did I get that right?

The tatts are unfortunate but the actor is hot.

But, best with facial hair.

In an earlier thread I suggested they just write this off and replace it with an hour of Morgan Spector simply walking around nude.

It would hold an audience.

Is Carrie coon Asian?

Well we've finally got the gay couple in a shirtless scene at last. It's just a matter of time before we get George Russell shirtless, then followed by the gay guys full frontal, then George full frontal, then the guys in an intense fucking scene, and then Gerorge being spitroasted by the two gays. Baby steps... baby steps. It's all just a matter of time, patience, and faith in one's French vanilla fantasy...

Love the show. I have to admit, even after the ending of episode three, I'm still on team Russell. Those fuckers thought they could pull the rug under George, and they fully ignored the signs that George is not someone you fuck with. Bertha encouraging George to fuck them right back was rather endearing to me. That's a strong marriage, she didn't care if they might lose money and status, because she was sure it wouldn't be for long. However, the show puts Bertha all over the place. Bumbling around like a fool when it comes to her own social climbing, while being overly protective of her own daughter's coming out to society (is it motherly instinct, or does she see her own daughter as a threat or competition for her own social climbing agenda?).

Poor John (Clayborne Elder), fallen for a duplicitous sleaze like Oscar (Blake Ritson). Ritson does have chemistry with Baranksi. The barbs they exchange as mother and son are pretty funny.

Poor Jack, the young footman (?) played by Ben Ahlers, courting the kitchen maid who quite rudely brushes him off after the date. I guess that was the proper etiquette, though. Marian told the lawyer guy, Tom Raikes, she's not interested, and he still keeps going after her and in episode three he apparently has worn her down, and it's a maybe to an engagement proposal. That's why men never accepted a no as a definitive answer.

In her own way Agnes, is looking out for Ada who wasn't aware that her suitor called her his meal ticket back in the old days. And Agnes didn't forget.

I like what the show does with Peggy, she doesn't play the game that the publisher asks of her.

I like the lean young elfin footman with big lips and eyes. I wouldn’t mind seeing him plowed by George Russell after a night of cruising at The Slide.

This is all because Julian Fellowes is an adequate writer and, weirdly given all the money being spent, nobody seems to step in and demand better. I agree with whoever observed it's a little surprising a show with these weaknesses is on HBO.

Strength of story and character notwithstanding, the show is seeing the same flaws of the Downton films (the show didn't seem to suffer from it quite as much): too many characters at once, so everybody gets a three sentence scene every ten minutes. The servants in series 1 of Downton were minor characters, except for Carson, Hughes, O'Brien and Thomas. Which made sense because they were protagonists too. The others were present (Anna, Gwen, Patmore) but their principal purpose in scenes was to demonstrate the kind of people they were without actually giving them anything to do and chewing up time. They got story later.

Fellowes is a lazy, formulaic writer and one of the luckiest fuckers in the history of entertainment.

[quote]She's a fantastic actress, but I don't think she's realized a grasp of the character.

I don't think she's been given much to work with. We're three in and as far as I remember we all we know about any of them is Bertha's mother said she was the only child worthy of mother's dreams and, as of last night, Bertha's people were farmers in Ireland or somewhere.

Bertha's also either a dominant or insecure woman who is constantly telling everybody what she controls, which is kind of interesting, but why? (And frankly I don't think Fellowes does it on purpose. "I decide when X will happen in this house" is probably the new "The times are changing at Downton Abbey, Mr. Carson."

George seems benign but ruthless. Bertha's on side but she's got the characteristics of a shark - hungry and always moving forward.

But why? What is the driver? Where did these people come from? The who, what, why, where, when and how is hugely absent. I get peeling the onion but this one is just sitting on the counter.

One of my favourite parts of Gone with the Wind (novel) were the conversations between Rhett and Scarlett about people and motivations and human character. Butler was cynical and funny as fuck. She was clueless in that respect but it worked. There's a lot of work with with the Russells but it's untapped and we're kinda far down the road to know this little about them, why they do what they do, and why we should root for them or not.

I need to see the third episode

[quote]They can easily fix the show by just focusing on George Russell getting gang banged by a bunch of burly studs for an hour each week.

Where I come from, George Russell is a top if there ever was one.

[quote]So the reason they hate Mrs. Chamberlain is because she had a kid with her husband before they actually married? Did I get that right?

Seems to be. Talk about a shocking revelation (right up there with and she holds her knife and fork in the wrong hands.)

These multi part threads seem to have certain conventions... labelling the thread number, a link to the previous thread.

For the benefit of us all, I suggest the link at R109 become a mandatory inclusion. In many ways, it's the best thing about the show.

The downstairs people are pretty boring. I'm hoping that the scheming lady's maid and the butler/valet who takes walks evolve into something more interesting.

This episode makes more clear how similar Agnes and Bertha are, but fails because Baranski can act and Coon seems to be reading her grocery list. No zingers, but the way Baranski says "meal ticket" comes close enough. Coon is better when she's angry although it comes off as overwrought.

The potential triangle with Oscar, John Adams and the aardvark nosed daughter is interesting, esp. given its inversion of the "shunning new money because they're not good enough" theme. Adams clearly is unhappy. Hopefully, we see more of that chest.

The financial stuff is not well explained--Fellowes is usually better with this kind of detail. Russell should have to struggle a bit more. This is a soap after all, so the story can't move too quickly and you run of plot if you don't drag things out.

can you imagine what the REAL JQ Adams grandson would look like? probably a nebbish pale frog

R116 - You are so correct. In the real world Alva Vanderbilt ( wife of William K and mother of Consuelo, Duchess of Marlborough) cane from an Alabama family that lost 80% of their of their fortune due to US Civil War. The story is more complicated than this but Alva Smith basically came north via France and reinvented herself to become social arriviste Alva Vanderbilt. THAT to me is the story. I wanna know the TRUE history on all these characters.

One of the best parts of Edith Wharton's The Age of Innocence is the backstory on Mrs. Manson Mingott. Mrs. Manson Mingott is matriarch of the powerful Mingott family and grandmother to Ellen and May. She was born Catherine Spicer, to an inconsequential family. THAT IS A STORY LINE to bring to the small screen via HBO or Netflix!

[quote] George seems benign but ruthless.

ruthless adjective

ruth·​less | ˈrüth-ləs also ˈru̇th-

Definition of ruthless : having no pity : MERCILESS, CRUEL a ruthless tyrant

^ Sorry, I put that badly... benign with his wife and children (so far) and ruthless with everybody else.

Back when Dynasty was original recipe and dinosaurs roamed the earth, Blake Carrington was briefly interesting in season one when he was actually ruthless with absolutely everybody.

I agree George's level of risk was resolved too quickly... at a minimum it should have held you over til next week but they've got the other thing for that.

R123: EXACTLY!

In regards to the Russell daughter, I think Agnes nailed it with her comment about not being able to fill a ballroom for a coming out. What I don't get is why Oscar is so set on marrying a girl with a lot of money. I get that he would need to marry a girl from the "right" family, but he seems overly fixated on money.

In the luncheon scene, Mrs. Astor mentioned that the new money set was planning on building a new opera house. Why don't the Russells join leagues with them, rather than trying to barge their way into the old money set? We're never given what is behind this drive. Also, I was hoping at the luncheon that one of women would reach across the table and slap the smug, annoying niece who kept snotting off (as if that would actually happen). I wish they had cast the actress playing the Astor daughter in the role of Marion instead of the Streep spawn who can't act her way out of a room.

The Vanderbilts were older new money and probably looked down on upstarts like the Russells. This was implied in Episode 1 when Agnes or owne of the other old money dames provided an overview of the current social pecking order.

[quote]but he seems overly fixated on money.

So he can be fabulous circuit twink without any repercussions, a la schock

[quote]slap the smug, annoying niece who kept

I agree that the song evinces a lot more “sass” than would be tolerated in this age

[quote] Why don't the Russells join leagues with them, rather than trying to barge their way into the old money set? We're never given what is behind this drive.

They’re all climbing their way into “society.”

[quote]What I don't get is why Oscar is so set on marrying a girl with a lot of money. I get that he would need to marry a girl from the "right" family, but he seems overly fixated on money.

Agreed. It can't be poverty (unless he's hiding a banking secret) because Aunt Baranski has referenced the Van Rijn money. So it may be jealousy. But as ever, Fellowes can't be bothered to write to it.

I think Lady John Quincy Adams the Umpteenth is poised to go kind of woman scorned as Snidely Whiplash unfurls his nefarious scheme. A good writer would let it happen and explore the misery in that marriage. That's got JR and Suellen written all over it.

"In the luncheon scene, Mrs. Astor mentioned that the new money set was planning on building a new opera house."

Which became which NYC venue????

Carnegie hall. He built it for himself

[quote]They’re all climbing their way into “society.”

You're right but why should we care? They are so one note in their ambition. And without humour. Remember the Thenariders in Les Mis? You rooted for them in a way because they were comic. While total buffoons wouldn't work here the Russells are blanks. They either need to let us in on the joke or be anti-heroes with effective foils.

R133 - That is what I thought. The comment was a reference to Andrew Carnegie and Carnegie Hall.

The show needs to be tightened. Not an example of quality but the Young and the Restless thrived for years on the conflict between Chancellor and Jill. Bertha seems to be mad at everybody but I get a sense she'd fly the white flag if they'd just let her in. The too late alternative for Oscar and the the daughter would be Romeo and Juliet thing (without the death part) where they marry despite everyone's objections and then the two families/tribes have to deal with each other. The thing lacks a bridge between the two sides.

Does anyone here actually write for work or have studied writing or work in production? It's easy for us to theorize on what isn't working but how can we figure it out and they can't? Or are we the ones who are full of shit?

[quote] What I don't get is why Oscar is so set on marrying a girl with a lot of money. I get that he would need to marry a girl from the "right" family, but he seems overly fixated on money.

When he lists all the qualities his bride has to have, he doesn't mention his mother should approve of her. That tells me that the marriage is his way out of her clutches.

I'm actually intrigued with the bald valet. I think he has a back story that will come out and I'm curious why he watches that lady's maid carefully. I don't think he's a real valet but more like an old partner in crime with George.

No, it's the original Metropolitan Opera House (look it up).

Her money would make him independent of his mother's money, esp. if the mother doesn't think its an acceptable match---in that case she would try to use her money to coerce him into calling things off.

R133 - From another gossip site:

"Lunch at Aurora Fane’s castle again and as per the usual, Marian can’t keep her mouth shut. Mrs. Astor and her Mean Girls are beside themselves because “a group of the new people” are building a new opera house (which will eventually become the Met)."

Oh, I’m so silly, youre right, r140, i stand corrected, CH came later

Of all the young actresses in NY couldn't they have cast a prettier actress and one who looks a bit less like Carrie Coon than the horse-faced girl who plays her devious ladies maid? She doesn't have the sort of beauty needed to bewitch George away from Bertha.

And would they please stop dressing Streep Jr. #3 in those simpering shades of baby blue? It's not helping her performances. Even her mousey Aunt Ada and her poor Black walking companion get to wear bolder and more engaging colors.

Katie Finneran is such a great actress I do hope she's given an interesting story line now that she's been made a widow. Perhaps she can become a dressmaker and spy for Bertha Russell.

Nixon seems to have a different speech pattern in every episode and it wasn't consistent in the first episode.

Can someone explain to this financially challenged person how if Mr Morris bought the stock on margin at a low price, why did George's buying the stock and keeping the price high cause Morris to lose all of his money?

Wouldn't his stock have increased in value? And if George was buying it, couldn't he have sold it back and gotten his money to pay off the margin?

r145, I imagine he took a short term loan, he couldn't pay back because he sold his shares at a loss (expecting to buy them back at an even lower point and, when announcing the train station deal is back on, to sell them at a profit again).

They were shorting the stock. That means selling shares borrowed from their broker with the expectation that the price would fall so that when they had to “cover” their short (ie return the borrowed shares by buying them on the market), they would pay much less than what they had sold them for.

Thanks R147.

Is George Russell based on William Collins Whitney (father of Pauline Whitney who married a Brit from an aristocratic family and Harry Payne Whitney who married Gertrude Vanderbilt) who would found the "company" that became the New York Transit Authority?

[quote]Nixon seems to have a different speech pattern in every episode and it wasn't consistent in the first episode.

And dis veek I am frump Chermany.

[quote] Is George Russell based on William Collins Whitney (father of Pauline Whitney who married a Brit from an aristocratic family and Harry Payne Whitney who married Gertrude Vanderbilt) who would found the "company" that became the New York Transit Authority?

In the "look-inside-the-episode" commentaries, Morgan Spector has repeatedly said his character is based primarily on Jay Gould, who was a tender family man but one of the most ruthless of the NY robber barons.

But Julian Fellowes said the scene with Alderman Morris literally kneeling before him, begging him to be merciful, was based on something that happened with Cornelius "The Commodore" Vanderbilt (the grandfather of the man who married Alva Vanderbilt, and the original source of the family fortune) in a similar situation.

The Russells haven't joined with the new people yet who will build the Met but they may eventually. I would assume they are not established enough yet to join those new people who may not have had money in their family for multiple generations (the way the Knickerbockers have had) but have been in NYC longer.

Eventually what happened is that the newer people stopped focusing on just being friends with the Old Money people and became friends with one another--and since they had so much money, they could buy nicer things than the less wealthy Knickerbockers did. That's what happened with the old Met. The Old Money refused to give up their boxes at the Academy of Music by selling them to the New Money, so when the New Money built the old Metropolitan Opera House with boxes they could own, the Academy of Music folded within a year, and the Old Money had to go to the Metropolitan since everyone with money at all went to the opera twice a week.

The New Money also continued this sort of thing with building other big civic projects for NYC: the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the New York Public Library, etc.

was based on something that happened with Cornelius "The Commodore" Vanderbilt (the grandfather of the man who married Alva Vanderbilt, and the original source of the family fortune) in a similar situation.

R151 - This incident with Cornelius "The Commodore" Vanderbilt was dramatized in the History Channel docudrama "The Men Who Built America" in the first episode.

I agree they need to clarify Oscar's money situation. When his father died, did he leave all the money to Agnes, which is why Oscar lives in her brownstone and is so eager to marry a rich girl? He seems affectionate towards his mother but always wants to tweak her snobbery and controlling behavior.

The stock sales were just a MacGuffin and the details don't matter. Let's get back to pulling apart the ladies bodices, which do.

I had no idea manscaping was a thing back in the 19th century! The things you learn from TV!

The Russells are expected to fall, right? But then Agnes will be neighborly, I suspect, to the Russells. And afterwards, the two families will be joined in some kinda marriage to fill that ballroom. George Russell can take up all the screen time he wants. One of the sexiest beards on TV I've ever seen.

R147 - SORRY!!! I got my rich dudes mixed up. I meant to say "Richard Thornton Wilson" not "William Collins Whitney".

Richard Thornton Wilson opened the banking firm of Wilson Galloway & Co., which would later become R. T. Wilson & Co., the company first to take up the question of the New York Subway System leading to what would become today's New York Transit Authority.

R157 - I do not think the Russells will fall or fail.

I think George Russell will do some type of favor that will put many old money people in his debt FOREVER!

Also, do not forget that many of the new money who could not marry Knickerbockers just sailed to England and married bankrupt Dukes, Marquessates, Earls and Viscounts with huge houses having no bathrooms or central heating. Has anyone heard this story before??

In the EW article the actress explains Bertha's problem better than any of the scripts. The problem is less that she's new money and more that she's pushing in relentlessly and the old money expects her to ease in respectfully. Uncle Julian hasn't done a very good job of finessing the frame for Bertha's story.

[quote]I had no idea manscaping was a thing back in the 19th century! The things you learn from TV!

To whom are you referring? The Adams boy? he had a nice hairy chest

Thanks, R159...

But Vanderbilt's Grand Central is already built in the 1870s on 42nd street.

And the design that Russell keeps flashing ain't the newbie 1900 Grand Central.

So I just expected the Russells are gonna crash-fall — that George's investment scheme is gonna ultimately backfire.

But methinks Agnes will show the Russell's mercy and somehow save the Russells from ruin.

A person like Agnes wouldn't lift a finger to help a person like George Russell. She'd be glad if they were ruined because they would be gone.

I find a lot of it redundant so far. Same conflict over & over. They’ve set up too many characters too quickly. I would’ve (who cares, right?) preferred they spotlight each family and the servants in the first four episodes or so so w3 got a deeper understanding of the most important characters. So far my faves are Mr. Russell, Baranski’s son, Kelli O’Hara & first wife from Big Love.

I don’t know any of the names except Ada, George, Bertha and Mrs. Astor.

Is Bertha Bertha Russell based on Alva Vanderbilt or Theresa Fair Oelrichs (Comstock Lode Heiress) or maybe Marie Louise Hungerford MacKay?

Marie Louise Hungerford MacKay was one of those who said "fuck it" then packed up and relocated to England to hold court when old NYC society snubbed her.

R154 agree that Oscar’s money hunger is a little perplexing as he’s set to inherit everything from Agnes, unless he just figures he might as well marry rich if he’s going to have to get married. Also, he doesn’t live with his mother, he’s apparently living in a flat with Mr. Adams, not sure they’ve explained that yet.

Carrie Coon has said repeatedly in interviews Bertha is based primarily on Alva Vanderbilt. But I am sure she has parts of other arriviste women in her too.

None of these characters are supposed to be strict one-to-one correspondences to actual people.

[quote]Also, do not forget that many of the new money who could not marry Knickerbockers just sailed to England and married bankrupt Dukes, Marquessates, Earls and Viscounts with huge houses having no bathrooms or central heating.

Well, that's the backstory for Cora, Countess of Grantham on Fellowes' previous show, "Downton Abbey." Her parents were American new money and married her off to an earl's son (who later became an earl in turn) in order to increase their family's prestige when they couldn't break into the right social circles.

My guess it that this is what Bertha plans for Gladys when she was mysteriously hinting last night to George that she has "other plans" for Gladys rather than letting her marry Archie Baldwin.

R168 - Which is what I find so interesting in trying to figure out : Which ones are going to stay in NYC and which ones are going to toddle off to Merry Ole England and become part of the Marlborough House Set??

[quote] So far my faves are Mr. Russell, Baranski’s son, Kelli O’Hara & first wife from Big Love. I don’t know any of the names except Ada, George, Bertha and Mrs. Astor.

Christine Baranski: Agnes van Rhijn

Baranski's son: Oscar van Rhijn

Kelli O'Hara: Aurora Fane

First Wife from Big Love (Jeanne Tripplehorn): Sylvia Chamberlain

[quote] And the design that Russell keeps flashing ain't the newbie 1900 Grand Central. So I just expected the Russells are gonna crash-fall — that George's investment scheme is gonna ultimately backfire. But methinks Agnes will show the Russell's mercy and somehow save the Russells from ruin.

I would doubt that. So far Agnes has not even really met the Russells, and holds them in the basest contempt. And she would show no interest in helping them if they got into financial trouble unless her son becomes married to Gladys.

She's also nowhere in their league in terms of money in order to help them out very much if they needed it. She likely has a few millions, but they have hundreds of millions. What she has that they do not have is prestige--she's from all the right families (the real Livingstons, and the fictional Brooks and Van Rhijns).

I wonder if they will make a plot for Gladys to marry an English aristo. When Jennie Jerome and the other girls who were not allowed in the Knickerbocker society married their husbands it really humbled the snobs and they had to play nice all of a sudden.

[quote] Fellowes is a lazy, formulaic writer and one of the luckiest fuckers in the history of entertainment.

I can think of worse, Mr Hyperbole, R115.

[quote] We're not harrumphing in high dudgeon about cosmetics. The cosmetics are great.

That's just not true.

There have been constant complaints on these threads about The Gilded Age that the dresses (particularly Bertha's) are not authentic in their colors or their shape, that they have bustiers and should not, etc. And there have been vociferous complaints on these threads that the architectural style of the Russells' house is all wrong. There have even been complaints there's not been enough mud and horse shit in the street on which the Russells and Van Rhijns live (!!).

Streep Spawn's face: 70% Alison Arngrim, 30% Susan Olsen.

I would love it if Alison was added to the cast as a heretofore-unknown sister of Streep Spawn and set about creating all kinds of cuntitude in the House of Van Rhijn.

[quote] Or are we the ones who are full of shit?

You said it, R137!

[quote] Marie Louise Hungerford MacKay was one of those who said "fuck it"

I don't think so.

If you can't see now that Oscar (Baranski's gay son) will be marrying the Russell daughter by the season finale you must be Helen Keller (who I believe was alive at the time of these events).

I think there will be more wooing of Gladys Russell by Oscar van Rhijn, but I don't know that it would be a marriage her parents would want (since Oscar is not as showy a catch as they would like), and they would try to prevent her from marrying. Agnes would hate it too, but it's not clear yet whether she has any control over him--he's much older than Gladys, and seems to have inherited some money from his father (and he also has a good job).

Also, he is not supposed to propose to Gladys until she is officially "out," and that requires a debut ball in the Russells' ballroom with enough people to satisfy Bertha.

But I could imagine an elopement happening down the pike that would infuriate both families--that would be interesting.

How is the Russel daughter meeting men of any sort without her mother knowing about it?

R173, good for you for trying something new.

So the reason they hate Mrs. Chamberlain is because she had a kid with her husband before they actually married? Did I get that right?

I don't think she had a baby before they married. But they had relations before marriage and when the baby was born, it was before 9 months. Oh, the scandal!

But the child was adopted. I think the point is no one really knows why she’s PNG. She just is.

R182, that's how I took it. They could have done better than that, surely.

I think she also answered they claimed it was adopted.

[quote] They could have done better than that, surely.

I'm not clear what you mean by that. "Better" how?

I think the point is that back in the day your reputation could be ruined by doing something we pretty much take for granted now.

OK,R186, so that's the point. Big deal. I found it dull. So when I say done better I mean writing to a scandal that packs some punch and adds to the dramatic tension not makes you say "that's it?'

Anything else I can clear up for you?

I wonder if Lord Fellowes was rather stung by the criticism of slow-moving storylines in Downton (The hospital! Coyle! Alfred getting a job!) and has decided that this series must move quicker?

It doesn’t work. EPISODE 3 moved at such a fast rate that most of the drama was taken out of it. The entirety of the storyline about the bankrupting of the aldermen was played out over about 10 minutes, maximum. The poor actors really had very little time to bring it to life and were really just chess pieces moved into place to bring about the denouement. They could have done much more with that plot.

Fellowes can create a world, and coin a phrase, but he really cannot structure drama. This applied to Downton too. The world he set up was wonderful, but the storylines tended to be wrapped up in a very perfunctory manner.

Never have I seen a Datalounge thread where the scriptwriter gets SO much attention.

We wouldn't know the scriptwriter's name in any other production. But we should bear in mind that he has a team of TWENTY co-writers.

Cathleen Calvert : Scarlett! My dear, he isn't received. He's had to spend most of his time at war because his folks in Charleston won't even speak to him. He was expelled from West Point, he's so fast, and then there's that business about that girl he wouldn't marry. Well, he took her out buggy riding in the late afternoon without a chaperon, and then... and then he refused to marry her!

Scarlett : [Gasps, then whispers in Cathleen's ear]

Cathleen Calvert : No. But she was ruined, just the same!

[quote] Anything else I can clear up for you?

Yes. Why do you have such a ridiculous chip on your shoulder?

Wouldn't a fabulously wealthy young woman who was pregnant without a husband simply go to European relatives for several months and and pretend to be taking the Grand Tour back then? There would be no reason for even her closest friends to know the truth. There must be more to the story than Ada is giving Marian.

Oh, wait. Julian Fellowes wrote this. So probably not.

We don't know yet that she was fabulously wealthy before her marriage.

R191, because you come across like one of those tedious Aunt Pittypats who whines they get the lace on the petticoats wrong. We done?

Fellowes may have been told no dreary, drawn out "Bates-Anna" or "Edith-Marigold" story arcs, hence the pace.

So this is a thread dedicated solely to trashing Fellowes over and over in 6 different but obvious ways.

Does anyone else want to start a new TGA thread that isn’t ruined by a vendetta?

I will participate there.

See ya!

What are ya—his agent or something?

[quote] because you come across like one of those tedious Aunt Pittypats who whines they get the lace on the petticoats wrong. We done?

What a little baby you are.

R19 or Hbomax

I noticed that all of the Russells (and guest Oscar) had their forks in their right hands, pointed upward. Were rich folk not using European table manners yet where they hold their forks in their left hand, pointed downward?

R153- I thought Cornelius was married to ZERA.

R199, I've read your contributions... one of those purveyors of honey and dear and the other feeble refuges of the sour but small talented. You're in no position to cast aspersions. But in an uncharacteristic moment of clarity, you did observe "the joys of the block."

Claybourn Elder’s acting improves drastically when he’s shirtless. If he presents hole he may just win an Emmy.

^ LOL

I like it! It's a fun soap opera. Don't understand the hate. Episode 2 and 3 much better than episode 1. I love the costumes and the old dolls. I didn't mind the young gals in episode 3, but wasn't engaged with them in earlier episodes.

It's not something I'd watch repeatedly--like The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, and Mad Men--but it's a kick and I'll keep watching.

Bertha Russell needs to be fabulous, Joan Collins fabulous. Carrie Coon is a fantastic actress, in the right part. But not this one.

The Streep spawn’s character is like an American Girl girl grown up. So are her dresses.

I know r207. I almost want to play fantasy director here and take her aside and ask, honey, what is happening here? What are you doing? What are these choices about?

So funny to see Baranski, Nixon and Simon Jones reunited decades after doing The Real Thing together on broadway.

Toni Collette would have been an amazinv Bertha. We would have seen her ruthlessness but also her charm.

You've got to find people on your level, Bertha!

The fabrics, details, textures, colors, bustles, hats, patterns of the dresses on the women are fascinating.

But, to supplement what someone as upthread noted about the gowns wearing the person, all of the women look burdened and uncomfortable.

Of course, in real life those damn things actually were uncomfortable, but the women in the cast here look like they're all burdened and hyper conscious of wearing these dresses.

It is funny, because I think part of the whole point of those crazy uncomfortable dresses was to be that, to be something that only could be worn if you had servants to strap you into them. Such a weird concept, like having straight jackets as some kind of ideal, but I kind of get it too. Too much fabric, too many buttons, too much everything was of course the whole point. You poors couldn't wear these crazy outfits even if you tried!

Suggestions to perk it up a bit:

- Marian "falls pregnant," still rides horses, Bertha hides behind a tree and fires a rifle, causing her to miscarry

- Bertha buys an entire newspaper just to slag off Peggy's short stories

- Gladys seduces gay Oscar and does a sexy dance at a party, infuriating Agnes

- Agnes and Bertha have it out in the newly installed Central Park Lily Pond

Don't forget:

-Larry paints Oscar's office with poison paint, causing potentially fatal hallucinations

-Gladys is kidnapped by a UFO

- Peggy invents the first weave. Becomes richer than all of them.

DL, tell me everything you know about Ward Horton.

Ward was born in Morristown, New Jersey but moved to a farm in North Carolina with his family at a young age. He grew up riding horses, playing basketball and acting. He attended Wake Forest University where he earned a BA in Business. After a few years as an investment banker in NC, Ward moved to NYC to pursue his acting career.

Funny that he’s a Wake alumni, but a quick scan of his IG account shows he’s a big Duke bb fan.

I believe Agnes and Bertha become frenemies, and it may involve Oscar to start it all. Bertha, not approving of Oscar making moves on her daughter, finds out he's gay and Agnes finds out both that her son is gay (or knows it already?) and that Bertha knows. Bertha decides to not use the information to humiliate Agnes at an opportune moment (a big social event?), and they keep doing each other underhanded favors to get even while trying to keep their (social) distance, but family members on both sides have other plans.

They didn’t have gays.

Confirmed bachelors then.

Hey, that would make a nice title for a gay period drama. Confirmed Bachelor. A Maurice (E.M. Foster) type of lead and his friends, trying to toe the line between society's duties and their own desires or truth, forming a tight-knit community which gets threatened by a good ol' classic murder investigation!

I find it a fun romp. it does feels bit underwritten and rushed, but I like it. the russels seem just as formidable as the robber baron couples of the time. the knickerbockers hide-bound like they actually were. The Adams hunk is a bit too much of a soap opera hunk but hey, ti is a soap opera in fancy dress.

I'm surprised we haven't had more discussion about John Adams, Knickerbocker himbo. The actor is named Claybourne Elder which sounds gay as basket of puppies. He has a son named Claybourne, too. And he's gay (with a nerdy looking older husband) and looks to be a Mormon.

studied in russia!

we know who he REALLy wants to be married to

What's wrong with his nose?

How could one have a "secret" gay lover spend the night when one lives with mommy, other relatives, and a house full of servants?

There would be no secret moans in that house.

R168 - I am far more interested in the juicy details of Cora, Martha and Isidore Levinson's backstory prior to going to England and meeting Robert Crawley than I am in any of the current characters in this latest Fellowes' yarn.

IMAO, Fellows lost the plot then missed the boat. The central characters in The Gilded Age should have been Cora, Martha and Isidore Levinson interacting with all the current characters of The Gilded Age as dreamed up by Fellowes. Granted we would know where they end up but we could have experienced the journey with them. This would have given the story a “thru line” and tied it all together like the Jill Foster Abbott versus Katherine Chancellor battle supreme “thru line” in the Young and Restless as mentioned by another poster.

Oscar's got a flat or apartment or whatever you called in in the olden days.

I’m praying for a episode where George Russel heads west to visit his expanding rail empire and has to stay in Walnut Grove, Minnesota for a LHOTP cross-over. Hopefully, Nellie is still running her restaurant, so he has somewhere to eat. Based on the timelines, I believe Alison Arngrim would be about the right age to reprise her role. Please make it happen!

Miss Scott will be shocked - shocked! - to find that Christian rag publishing a couple of her stories behind her back. She probably didn't even check to see that all of the manuscripts had been given back to her.

The husband (of Claybourne Elder) is no Jake G

r233, I don't think they would dare to do this and risk for Penny, who stuck to her principles, to cause a scandal which she would do most certainly.

R207 & R209 & R211 - I would have cast Angelina Jolie as Bertha.

I'd do Eric Rosen in a New York minute at any time in history. Seeeeeeeeeeeeexy!

The one thing I'll credit the show is the writing for Peggy is far better than I expected and about the best of the thing.

Eric Rosen gives Claybourne Elder class and Claybourne Elder gives Eric Rosen sex!

R223 - For a great gay story line where the gays win and come out happily ever after you need to watch Midsomer Murders S19 E05 titled "Death by Persuasion". It was one of the best "John Barnaby" episodes and a series favorite of mine.

[quote]But the child was adopted. I think the point is no one really knows why she’s PNG. She just is.

[quote]I think she also answered they claimed it was adopted.

Dear God!

Claybourne is currently in his underwear 8x a week in the revival of company. He was Jakey’s understudy in Sunday in the Park.......

For some reason The Gilded Age theme has been my ear worm for days.

I almost miss the tinnitus.

I find hit flat nose intriguing. Hot guy.

Correction: Eric Rosen gives Claybourne Elder class and Claybourne Elder gives Eric Rosen ass!

All this hunkiness, but we are unlikely to see much skin. Upper class men almost never showed any skin in that era. it was very accurate that they showed George in a dressing gown when with his wife in private.

They could add scenes where guys are being dressed by their servants.

[quote] We first meet Mr. Knightley as he dresses for the day. “Autumn was really interested in the stuff you don’t see — what is actually involved in living like an upper-class person in 1815,” Flynn says. “We got to know our dressers in the way real people from this period knew their valets or maids.” Getting meta, Knightley’s valet is played by one of the production’s actual wardrobe assistants, Connor Dalton.

[quote] We’re used to seeing women in states of dishabille as they don period dress, and de Wilde wanted to turn that trope on its head. “She said quite openly she wanted to have this moment of objectifying a man’s body — not in a sexual way, but having him dressing,” Flynn says. “That day I was pretty much the only guy on set, and I had to be properly naked. It was the opposite of my experience of getting naked on set usually. It was such a gentle and loving and sweet and family-oriented set. [De Wilde] was really honest about it being a male body intimately seen from the female gaze.”

The scene mentioned in r247.

You left out the best part.

[quote] Your favorite Austen hero is buff in more ways than one. “They didn’t wear underwear,” Flynn notes. “The shirt basically was the underwear, so you tucked it between your legs and twist it, and it keeps everything in place. You have to be naked underneath, so I was, and then Connor was twisting the shirt — they struggled to get an angle where you didn’t see everything.”

r249, LOL. I kind of wanted to reward the ones who made the effort to check the link out.

Did the Flatiron district have many gyms where Adams built up those arms and pecs?

A few thoughts in no particular order:

- These characters are not as "engaging" as the Crawleys. While I know this isn't and shouldn't be Downton America, you'd expect they'd create engaging characters.

- Anges van Rhijn (Baranski) is essentially the less endearing version of Violet Crawley. They would have been better off making her a bit more like some of Baranski's other characters and played into that caustic wit she does so well.

- Like in the Godfather, what makes terrible people remotely sympathetic characters is the value they put on family and loyalty. I hope they remember this with the Russells. His love for his wife and her unwavering support of him is what makes them even remotely likeable.

- Since the Russells are the Vanderbilts and Bertha Russell is Alva Vanderbilt, do you suppose that a future season will see her daughter, Gladys, in a story line where they try to marry her off to some Engish duke? Will she end up being a Dollar Princess?

- Will we see a guest spot by Harold Levinson, Cora's brother or a young Cora herself? It's 1882 in the show. Cora went to London in 1888 and married Robert Crawley in 1890.

- Are John Adams and Oscar Van Rhijn in love or is it just Adams in love? I would have preferred a slightly less cynical gay relationship after Downton's. While I get they aren't going to come out or anything, it seems like it could at least be a bit more emotional.

Johnny Flynn will take Jude Law’s role in the Showtime miniseries of The Talented Mr. Ripley. He’s not to everyone’s taste but I thought he was sexy as hell in London in the play The Hangman.

Johnny Flynn is not nearly Jude-Law-in-Ripley hot.

Well, Andrew Scott (Hot Priest in Fleabag) is playing Matt Damon’s role so they’re obviously going for different qualities. I think Elle Fanning could be an improvement on Gwynnie.

[quote]Well, Andrew Scott (Hot Priest in Fleabag) is playing Matt Damon’s role so they’re obviously going for different qualities

The difference is that Law's character is supposed to be a golden boy type to whom Damon's character aspires to be. So Andrew Scott's role wouldn't necessarily require him to be hot.

That said, aren't they both a bit old to play either character - Flynn is 39 and Scott is 45.

[quote] These characters are not as "engaging" as the Crawleys. While I know this isn't and shouldn't be Downton America, you'd expect they'd create engaging characters.

Because they've demonstrated so little warmth or humour. It's all very, very serious and very, very hurried. I like it... I just wish it was better.

Yeah, r257, I get the feeling Marian's snarky little comments are supposed to be funny, but she just seems like a pissy, annoying teen instead.

I did chuckle when she said "Oh, we still want her money, we just mean to insult her first."

[quote] Since the Russells are the Vanderbilts and Bertha Russell is Alva Vanderbilt, do you suppose that a future season will see her daughter, Gladys, in a story line where they try to marry her off to some Engish duke? Will she end up being a Dollar Princess?

Well, as was pointed out above, although Bertha's analogue is most clearly Alva Vanderbilt, George's analogue is Jay Gould.

My guess would be that since Fellowes still wants to do a prequel series to DA that shows how Cora Levinson married Robert, the Viscount Downton, they would be more likely on TGA to do something a little different and try to marry off Gladys to a French aristocrat. Almost all girls of Gladys' social class spoke French fluently, language would not be a problem, and in real life Jay Gould and his wife married off their homely daughter Anna to the (gay) Comte de Castellane. He treated her terribly and spent ten million Gould dollars (an enormous fortune back in the day) and she gave him five children until she divorced him, and she married another French aristocrat, the Duc de Sagan, who was much nicer to her. (She was adored in French society, btw, despite her homeliness--Proust hugely admired her.)

There were lots of number of wealthy arriviste heiresses who married French aristocrats as ones who married British ones. Winnaretta Singer, the heir to the Singer sewing machine fortune, married the Prince de Polignac, for example (he was gay but so was she). And in Edith Wharton's "The Custom of the Country," the New Money heiress Undine Spragg marries the French count Raymond de Chelles.

Interesting, r260. I did not know about that whole side of things. Same deal I guess, trading money for titles. I'm guessing there was a fair amount of mixing and mingling of English and French aristocrats, all going to the same spas and things, but maybe not. The two countries were certainly imperial rivals at the time.

Very interesting r260.

I hadn't realized that there were so many French money marriages. I figured there would have been a handful of them across Europe, but the majority of them and the most notable ones were with the English.

[quote]George's analogue is Jay Gould.

Well, there's definitely Gould elements in the character.

It’s fiction. I can do whatever I damn please.

[quote] Well, there's definitely Gould elements in the character.

Morgan Spector has said a number of times in the "Inside the Episode" features that Gould is his character's primary inspiration, according to Fellowes; but there's not supposed to be a one-to-one correspondence between his character and Gould's, nor between Bertha and Alva Vanderbilt (whom Carrie Coon has said on these features is her character's primary inspiration).

For example, the plot in this last episode about aldermen begging the multimillionaire on their knees was something that happened with Cornelius Vanderbilt ("The Commodore"), not with Gould. And Alva was married in real life to the Commodore's grandson, not the Commodore himself. And Alva was from the South, and Bertha does not seem to be.

^ Which we can count on being as little as humanly possible.

"the Viscount Downtown". how impressive it sounds!

r260, I'm learning something

R264 - The basis for Cora Levison's character was Mary Leiter, Mary was a daughter of Levi Leiter who was the original and equal partner of Marshall Field I in the dry good business that eventually became Marshall Field & Company. Levi Leiter invested 90% of his profits from this venture in Chicago real e$tate and made an even bigger bag$ of money. However, the character of Core only has a passing personality resemblance to the real Mary Leiter.

R252 - Cora Levinson was born in 1868 so the dates fit for Cora (or the complete Levinson family) to make a cameo appearance in The Gilded Age if Sir Julian chooses to do so. Isidore Levinson was also in the wholesale and retail dry goods business then re-invested the profits in Cincinnati real e$tate making even bigger bag$ of money.

R251 at the YMCA, no kidding there were plenty of gyms and athletic clubs in those days. And I am sure the sauna was busy as well.

The Gilded Age: Vogue explains all.

The Vanderbilts also are characters in the show (established but not present in the first episode), so they can only be partially inspirational for other characters.

R271 - Cornelius Vanderbilt I (May 27, 1794 – January 4, 1877), nicknamed "the Commodore" had 13 children and his son William Henry Vanderbilt (May 8, 1821 – December 8, 1885) had 9 children so anything is possible.

R79, R230 Fellows

Fellowes

I must be watching a different show then all of you, I am loving this. I think the sets, the costumes and the cast are all terrific.

R240 'Midsomer Murders' is now as inauthentic and woke as 'The Gilded Age'.

You think Elder has manscaped in video at R244? That's like the perfect amount of chest/stomach hair and pattern IMO. so wonder if it's been "created" or natural.

R273 - I only misspelled "Fellowes" once in the post. Give a girl a break. Please???

Carrie Coon was great in The Leftovers, and I saw her on stage in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf and she was pretty good, but she lacks any sense of fun. They needed a Morgan Brittany type!

we need more morgan Fairchild

Catch me up on one thing.why are the Russell’s not accepted in society? Thanks

R274 - Yep - I agree. This show is a fun visual escape with lavish costumes and the obscenely luxurious Russell mansion which makes the other dwellings quaint by comparison. The entry hall alone is probably bigger than my 2000 sf house! If one nitpicks then you can surely find fault but it's a nice escape from the constant drone of the political machinations that accomplish nothing.

[quote] Catch me up on one thing.why are the Russell’s not accepted in society? Thanks

George Russell made his own fortune instead of inheriting it from several generations back, and both he and his wife did not grow up among the established New York society.

The way NY society is at this time, to be fully accepted by the elite Knickerbocker families (on this show, the fictional Van Rhijns and Fanes and real life Astors, but in real life at this time not just the Astors but also the Schermerhorns, Van Rensselaers, Rhinelanders, Livingstons, Schuylers, Joneses, Gansevoorts, Clintons...) your fortune was supposed to be in the family at least as far back as the American Revolution, and preferably as far back as the 16th and early 17th century, when New York was a Dutch port called New Amsterdam.

I think Baranski is playing the character as written--which means not campy and, therefore, less fun, but I think she is being a pro in sticking to the rather humorless character Fellowes has written. Similarly, Nixon has been given a much less rich and much less moving version of her Aunt Birdie in "The Little Foxes," which was one of the most heart-breaking performances I have ever seen (and I usually find her a bit cold as an actress)--kind of an unfunny Aunt Martha in Edith Wharton's "Arsenic and Old Lace." It seems like Fellowes is borrowing from better writers (Wharton, Hellman, not Kesselring, I mean) and trying to use the template of DA and Gosford Park. I'll watch a) because there are so many good actors and b) there's not much else on thee days, but I'd love to see these actors in a script derived from some of Wharton's lesser-known short stories. Or even one of her novels--neither the films of "The Age of Innocence" or "The House of Mirth" were so definitive (though I liked both), that a newer, more expansive version wouldn't be worth doing.

Or, how about Lady Gaga IS "The Princess Casamassima"!

Actually, Gag's has a kind of Gilded Age look. She could play Coons' already mentioned but not invited to stay sister.

R282) Thanks for clueing me in. I’m watching episode 3 or 4 now.

I want Morgan Spector in me, quite deeply

Am I alone in thinking Mr. Fane looks like Mrs. Fane's boytoy?

Actually r217 the Egyptians invented it

Hey r240 nice to "meet" another Midsomer fan.

Any verificatia of sizemeat for the elder Claybourne?

If Clayborne Elder did porn, I would pay to see it.

[quote] Or even one of her novels--neither the films of "The Age of Innocence" or "The House of Mirth" were so definitive (though I liked both),

Well, since Criterion has issued an edition of "The Age of Innocence," we can safely say that it absolutely IS the definitive adaptation, no matter what you personally think.

That being said, if there can be new adaptations of Alfred Hitchcock's "Rebecca" (which is also definitive), there can be new adaptations of "Age of Innocence." But i would much prefer a film adaptation of Wharton's "The Custom of the Country" first.

This show would have been a success from the start if it had just included.....ME!

Frankly, I'm appalled that we continue to allow that basketball team to use such a derogatory name.

If the Washington Redskins finally changed their name to Commanders, when will they stop the insensitivity using the name "Knicks"?

Where is the twitter OUTRAGE.

Thanks for joining us Helen Keller aka R274.

The trailer for next episode shows we'll see Patrick Morris's funeral, and we will also see Bertha tell George that Patrick's suicide was entirely Patrick's fault. But we don't really see how George reacts to it,

Patrick's widow Anne Morris and her children will likely be left bankrupt by Patrick's debts--that's what happened in the 19th century when a serious debtor committed suicide.

Do you think we'll see George re-pay those debts and save Anne and her children from the poor house? If he did, it would likely not be out of guilt, but because:

1) although the Old Money women will blame Patrick for his death (and shame Anne for it), they would also squarely blame George for it, and they would never have anything to do with the Russells again socially--and that would mean not only Agnes and Mrs. Astor, but also the women who have previously been sympathetic to the Russells, like Ada and Marion. It would be hard to believe they could ever forgive any of the Russell adults if Anne Morris and her children have to starve.

2) on a meta-level, it might make the Russell family seem too irredeemable in the eyes of the viewing audience (since this isn't meant for the same audience as "Succession").

On the street with the lot of them!

I think society would've turned their backs to the Morris family for being so foolish to lose their fortune trying to best a robber baron. They'd keep icing out the Russells, so nothing would change for them.

I don’t like the Carrie Coon character. I hope no one wants to be her friend. Why should we care about her when she’s a superficial asshole?

r275 The last 3 or 4 seasons of Midsomer Murder are pretty much unwatchable. The writing is terrible now.

The Gilded Age could have been a terrific show...if they had hired Sally Wainwright to write and produce it instead of the insufferable hack Julian Fellowes.

It’s been awhile since we’ve seen an EVIL CONNIVING GAY character!

I think he’ll get his CUMMUPANCE! LOL

Do I have to start a new thread just to point and laugh at r292 for opining that inclusion in “the Criterion Collection” makes any given film adaptation of a novel “definitive”?

I had the same thoughts R251. I understand that there were gyms R269- thanks for the cool image!- but would someone of John Adam’s’ echelon have the physique of a dockworker, brewkeeper, or farmhand? I would think he’d be fit but very lean like the men in the picture. It’s an anachronism i will not complain about— J Q Adam’s is delicious :)

It’s not getting better. All so predictable. Cobbled together from well known storylines. The characters are cartoonish and two-dimensional, such as the housekeeper with the wicked-witch-of-the-West face. Jacobson is miscast. Nixon is actually quite good in her role.

Elder has a hot chest but his broken nose and thuggish face is a distraction.

[quote] Jacobson is miscast.

What a euphemism.

Nixon is horrible---a new speech pattern every week. They have too many characters introduced all at once. You could do that in Gosford Park but it doesn't work here. The villains are played wither too obviously or just poorly (Coons).

It's Nixon's discoloured teeth I can't get past. Between that and the Persian lamb hair I look away.

Jacobson does not have the sense of presence, charisma or delivery to portray her character. She is dull and possesses a flat affect so that Marian comes off as soppy rather than mischievous or interesting with humorous overtones.

She really is a very poor actress.

^ When she announced the lawyer had proposed to her, she stated, “I really am quite breathless”; there was no clue in her acting that that this was the case. Rather Jacobsen was the same, flat, “whatever”-weak actor muddling through the performance as usual.

It was necessary for her to state how she felt without the capability to demonstrate it for the viewer. It really is rather astounding at how such bad acting can be observed on the screen thanks to nepotism.

R292 - I want a good 10-episode mini-series adaptation of Wharton's "The Buccaneers" which stays as close to the book as possible.

R310, but that's not her fault - that's the script and we know who did that. That said, she does sound like she can't breathe. She is not strong enough to take what is increasingly the main character and command the position. Marian is emerging as a nexus between her house and the Russells and old and new New York, but the actress isn't owning it. Her performance is mousy where the character is a maverick.

I think Nixon is quite good as the slightly cuckoo unmarried aunt. She has a way to portray women who feel a bit uncomfortable in their own skin, at least in some situations.

[quote] John Adam’s

Oh, dear.

John Adam's Adams Apple's.

Vendetta thread.

Louisha Jacobbshunn

jacobsen does feel a bit too light for even the ingenue character in this drama - a young Jennifer Ehle would be perfect.

Nixon doesn't show herself well with her strange at time elocution, but her dotty simpering look does work (she plays almost a similar character in amadeus - check it out)

no love for the bland but ardent and handsome young lawyer?

Seems to me Nixon is recycling one of the the characters she played in The Little Foxes on Broadway a few years ago. She won a Tony award then, not likely she’ll be getting an Emmy this time around.

It's such a bowl of oatmeal part though, you've got to figure they promised Nixon something meatier. I struggle to imagine the main driver of Che Nightmara content to waddle around in a bustle saying my dear for ten episodes. Nixon is used to saving the world now.

the male cast is handsome, maybe she is turning to the straight side of things

What I am missing are “dressing/undressing” scenes. They must be quite elaborate given the stuff they are waddling around in. How about a little corsage torture? Those scenes worked quite well in Downton Abbey.

R322: Those would require more interaction with "the help" which was a feature of Downton, but not a feature (so far) of this show. If it was the scheming lady's maid would have been more fleshed out.

r322, we get to see mr russel's valet put on his pants in the first episode

Somewhere in the middle of Fellows writing this - he stopped to write the Downton Abbey movie. The result was a very weak product.

I was more thinking about the ladies and their puffed up tushes, R324.

Hotness hierarchy:

1. Mr Fraikes the Lawyer - great face. eyes, smile. Bet he's packing a hot body under the suit too

2. Larry Russell. A bit of a twink but cute face and great hair. Prob not built but we haven't seen yet.

3. Adams boy/Elder. Hottest body so far. handsome face if a bit "brutish" due to the nose.

4. Evil Van Rijn boy. The mustache ruins his face. His body was surprisingly lean and defined.

5. Mr Russell. Actually he should probably be higher on this list based on his naked pics form another show, but we haven't seen much of him besides his bearded face yet on this show. Maybe if and when we do he jumps to #1 or 2 :)

R327 Mr. Russell is my #1 because he looks like he’d be a freak in bed!

R327 - you can have them if I get Mr Fane all to myself.

I agree with R328. His voice alone makes me hard.

Morgan Spector looks so much better when styled as George Russell than he does in real life.

Give us a call, we have some ideas!

Am I the only one thinks Mr. Fane looks like Mrs. Fane robbed the cradle?

R303 the dockworker bit is your fantasy.

Decorative muscles were the province of the rich at that time. It was only the men of leisure who had the means and time to dedicate to 'physical culture'. No dock worker looked like that in that era.

If you want to imagine Elder in gay porn, go see him in Company. It would look just like that.

No, you’re not the only one, R333. He looks too hot and too young for Kelli O’Hara.

R327, love you, babe. Waiting for your in-depth appraisals of all the Russell footmen in due course.

At first I thought he was playing Kelli’s son. I’m enjoying it but I also enjoyed Emily in Paris so not sure about my taste level. It’s also fun to see so many theatre actors in the cast.

[quote]Blake Ritson (Oscar) is 44 IRL, his character is supposed to be a recent college grad, right? He’s got a nice tight body, and his boyfriend Mr. Adams is built like a brick shithouse, not that I’m complaining.

He looks like a '70s gay porn star with that mustache. Not that I'm complaining either ...

This show is gonna wind up being camptastic, whether it wants to or not.

[quote] Decorative muscles were the province of the rich at that time.

Actually this was not the case in the 1880s. There was little interest in how muscular rich men were because it was considered vulgar and lower-class to take your shirt off. If you did, it it was only to do sports or go swimming in the company of other men, which was considered completely de-eroticized because homosexuality was not really admitted as a possibility. This is why gay men at the time like John Singer Sargent found their fuckbuddies among the working class--they could find the male bodies they craved, but when completely hidden from their wealthy friends.

Ward Horton is 46; Kelli O'Hara (who plays his character's wife) is 45.

I beg to disagree, R340

This thread is making me horny.

Which is the last thing I expected.

I googled “John Singer Sargent gay”. Now I am horny.

I knew someone would bring up that Eakins painting, but actually its reception at the time only proves my point, since it was not popular at all when it was painted. Its original proposed buyer rejected it, and Eakins exhibited it only twice more during his lifetime--and in both instances it was completely ignored by critics. Eakins kept it in his own house where no one else saw it. It was only after he died (and thirty years after it was first painted, by which time attitudes had changed) that it became a popular painting.

[quote]Following its rejection by Coates, the painting remained in Eakins' possession until his death. It was exhibited just twice more during Eakins' lifetime: at the 1886 Southern Exposition in Louisville, Kentucky, and in 1887 at Chicago's Inter-State Industrial Exposition, and ignored by critics on both occasions. The painting then disappears from the historical record—there is no further reference to the painting in any records from Eakins or his circle of friends during Eakins' lifetime. Following Eakins' death, the painting was exhibited in Philadelphia and New York at memorial exhibitions in 1917.

I just brought it up because I don’t consider it “de-eroticized”, R345 :) In fact, all of Eakins’ athletes strike me as eroticized.

The Gilded Age is the SMASH of the '20s! All this show is missing is Deb Messing!!

Do you know how close you are to the mark, R347? Bob Greenblatt behind both...

I agree, r346: but my point is that that particular painting was not popular at the time with society people even if it was painted in the right era. The dominant heterosexual culture at large did not want to see naked torsos, unless they were safely distanced by showing figures from the classical past.

Even then it was a problem: in [italic]The Age of Innocence,[/italic] Julius Beaufort is considered scandalous for keeping a Bougereau classical painting of a nude woman ("Love Victorious") in his drawing room where everyone can see it.

This is why we are unlikely to see Morgan Spector with his shirt off in this show--unless he's boxing or swimming, or we see him in bed with a mistress.

I hope they include a Swimming Hole Scene or some hot wrestling with in the series.

It looks like they’ve applied aging make-up to Ward Horton,

No love for Michel Gill who played the suicidal Mr. Morris? He was very hot when young (I did a few plays with him in the 1980s) and he may be remembered as the POTUS on House of Cards.

I thought he was hot still.

Good looking man. Good actor. But not leading man material.

I think Claybourne's broken nose is one of the sexiest things about him. At least he didn't get the same lousy nose job as Steven Pasquale and Santino Fontana.

I still want to drain Steven Pasquale’s lizard dry. And Will Swenson’s. Philippa and Audra can go have coffee somewhere during it.

I cannot find "House of Mirth" streaming nowhere. And the movie ain't at my library... Anyone know where I can watch it?

More of him and the horny lawyer

If Morgan does not get nude in this series where was the clip from?

some other flick

Some other flick!?!

The greatest fifteen seconds of film ever made!

indeed, a landmark

Meryl's daughter is the star of this show. I had no idea. The Marion Brooks chick.

Why do Coons and Spector have top billing?

I don’t think the Streep spawn is THAT bad.

I don't either. She's not great but she's not awful.

They all seem preoccupied by this intense dic-shun and the in-a-bil-i-tee to say any-thing except they are rather than they're.

Thanks for the news flash, r 363.

[quote] I don’t think the Streep spawn is THAT bad.

I do.

One of the worst performances seen in a very long time....

Jacobson's deficiencies are especially glaring when she has to share a scene with Denée Benton.

If Bertha would have her footman stand in the dining room naked, she could get people to her house for dinner.

R368 I'm not one to go on social media and criticize a performance by the child of great actress... what's the point.... however, God she is weak. It seems like community dinner theater. Nothing rings true...and the lines are there. There's a lot to do with the character. But she's also not getting any help... the flat blonde hair, the sappy blue colors she's always wearing, the flat and wooden line readings... she needed a director to help.

R371 All of what you say could also have been said about the first hour of Olivia de Havilland in The Heiress.

Click Click Click

[quote] All of what you say could also have been said about the first hour of Olivia de Havilland in The Heiress

Indeed of any hour of any of her performances.

Her waist is fantastically tiny though. Go girl!

^ CGI

So his the actor who portrays mister john Adams

She and Taylor Richardson who plays the young maid should have switched roles.

Yes, the young Irish maid has spunk!

The young Irish maid might get some spunk if she's lucky.

Didn’t Shonda Rimes make a failed pilot about The Gilded Age with John Barrowman?

the young irish maid clearly isn't interested in the young swain and is likely Lesbytarian

Clearly the young maid is going to wind up fingering Ada Miranda.

Hey, it's Maid Diaz.

Well that was sad. Reading through 380 odd replies with many telling us how terrible the whole thing is and the writing is awful.

Are we talking about the same series? I love it, totally. I can’t believe in a world where we have had not 1, not 2 ,but 3 adaptations of fucking Spider-Man in the last 20 odd years we are shitting on a Period Drama that doesn’t meet the exacting standards of a Gay Divas. Quelle suprise.

Love it, love it, love it all. I have learned so much about the Gilded Age ( yes I did love “ The Alienist” and the adaptation of “ Age of Innocence “ is perfection. But I didn’t know about a Black Upper Middle Class in 19th Century New York. Fabulous.

Love the costumes. Love Ada, love the men, love the history. What is for a Gay not to love?

My only problem is Marion. She is not from the 19th Century. She is a fucking 21st Century MeMe Generation person. She is fucking left nothing and instead of becoming destitute, she is saved by her Aunts and she treats them like they owe her!! Wtf!!!

But besides that I love it.

I'm as Liberal as they come, but even I wanted to slap Marian when she kept speaking out of term at tea with the other ladies. Read the room, Marian, read the fucking room!

I want more of Donna Murphy. I’ve always loved her on stage but she’s morphing into a wonderful character actress on film. I hope her work here opens some doors for her.

I'm sorry, but to me Donna Murphy looks like a chola girl who aged out of sitting on the back of a truck, listening to Morrissey with some serious pencil sharp eyebrow mastery on her face. Even in the fancy dresses, she looks so out of place for me.

It's just so weird to me that three episodes in the two female leads have nothing to do with each other.

It's certainly an interesting creative choice.

[quote]The young Irish maid might get some spunk if she's lucky.

And pregnant if she's unlucky, and that's the real thing that real women had to worry about all the time in her day. For the footman, it's all fun and fucking. For her, it's pregnancy and misery and being on the streets. In other words, the modern Republican dream!

Maybe Oscar will end up sleeping with the Russell son while trying to marry the daughter.

[quote] a Period Drama that doesn’t meet the exacting standards of a Gay Divas.

You are off base. The criticism is that the show is BAD in ways that it does not take a gay diva to notice.

R392, I disagree. The only people I have heard complaining about this show are gay divas. I think their constant bitching comes from the fact that they are jealous of Baron Fellowes being given the opportunity to do work that they can only dream of doing.

Consider including yourself in this judgment.

She seems a little invested, R392. Caps and exclamation marks are never a sign of detachment.

R373 boils it down to the bare bones. It's like they're keeping time with a metronome.

^that was a comment on the Streepling, not the show.

Ohhh…. you in trouble now @ R392.

Donna Murphy is so fat, any door this show opens for her will have to be a barn door.

I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised that John Adams, described by Agnes Van Rhijn as being John Quincy Adams’ great grandson, didn’t exist. John Quincy Adams did have a grandson named John but he was born in 1874.

her highness is so haughty

R385, well bully for you that you like this badly written trash and the fact you LEARNED something (there were black middle class people!?!? who knew?!?!?)

Obviously, quite a few people don't agree with you.

There's no right or wrong with liking/not liking something.

Unless, you like shit then that just proves you have lousy taste and can't deal with that fact.

I don't mind whether Donna Murphy is plump and homely in this role, because the real Mrs. Caroline Astor was plump and homely.

But God was she ever well-connected! Her father was Abraham Schermerhorn, and her mother was a Van Cortlandt--through whom she was related to the Van Rensselaers, the Schuylers, the De Peysters, and the Livingstons. She might have been the highest born New Yorker ever, according to the standards of the old Knickerbockers.

And she married the grandson of John Jacob Astor.

I am enjoying this thread more than the show.

Wikipedia, citing something called ShowBuzz Daily, shows the numbers more favourable than not. Opened with 463,000 viewers. Up the next week to 598,000 and down slightly last week to 542,000. Will be interesting to see if last week's I'm not OK at the OK corral drives it up. (Now Game of Thrones opened with an audience of 2.5M so it's nothing to jump up and down about on paper, but maybe it meets their projections.)

“Unless, you like shit then that just proves you have lousy taste and can't deal with that fact.” R401

You sound abit bitter. Are you bitter? You sound like you want to control the narrative. Is your name Marion?

[quote]McAllister spoke with the Times, refuting the World article and giving the paper the "official list", which was published on February 16, 1892 and quoted McAllister stating:

[quote]The so-called Four Hundred has not been cut down or dwindled to 150 names. The nonsense, don't you know, printed to that effect in the World and some other papers, has made a very bad impression that will reflect badly against them, you understand. That list of names, you understand, printed on Sunday, did not come from me, don't you see. It is unauthorized, don't you see. But it is accurate as far as it goes, you understand. It is incomplete and does injustice, you understand, to many eligible millionaires. Think of leaving out such names, don't you know, as Chauncey M. Depew, Gen. Alexander S. Webb, Mr. and Mrs. Edward Cooper, Mr. and Mrs. Luther Kountze, Mr. and Mrs. Robert Goelet, Mr. and Miss Wilson, Miss Greene, and many others! Don't you understand, it is absurd, senseless. Let me explain, don't you know. There are three dinner dances, don't you know, during the season, and the invitations, don't you see, are issued to different ladies and gentlemen each time, do you understand? So at each dinner dance, you know, are only 150 people of the highest set, don't you know. So, during the season, you see, 400 different invitations are issued. Wait a moment and I will give you a correct list, don't you know, of the people who form what is known as the Four Hundred. Do you understand it will be authorized, reliable, and, don’t you know, the only correct list.

This guy makes me think of Andre Leon Talley pretending to be in the deep confidence of Anna Wintour and able to speak for her.

queens will be queens

Well, at least we know who Caroline Kennedy was in a previous life.

How many of the old money “400” families are still prominent in NYC today? Are there Schermerhorns, Van Cortlandts, etc. still running around NYC?

not that I know of. I'm friends with a roosevelt and though they have a nice old place in Maine and on the UES they aren't really that interested in "society" anymore.

Is there even a society any longer? I would guess there's still a heavy frequency of "people we know" but even that wouldn't be as rigid as the days of the 400. Look at New York Social diary and those people look like tacky wealthy but they don't have an air of confidence. I asked a friend once who knows British aristocrats to define the difference between them and us and he thought and said: confidence - they have an almost genetic certainty about who they are that gives them a reflexive confidence. Then you might argue isn't that arrogance? I would say not really, not if you don't seek to flash your confidence and that's another quality of it - they do not seek to impress. Which is the central tension of old v new in Gilded Age.

[quote]Is there even a society any longer?

I'd argue that it doesn't exist as it once did.

Men made money and women provided access. Part of "society" was both exclusionary to keep people out and preservation to maintain wealth/lifestyle. You married men who could support that lifestyle or women who provided access to people through social and family connections. During that period a lot of people still lived off family wealth to support their lifestyles, and as much as the Robber Barons were a big deal economically, it was still somewhat difficult to make money.

Today, it's much easier to make money as access to funding no longer requires "connections" to that old money. Whether through the equity markets, VC or hedge funds, or individual investors, startups can get funding that had been previously only available to limited groups of people.

This business access makes social access (country clubs and dinner parties) less necessary. Sure, a lot of business is still conducted on golf courses, but more of it is not. You don't need your wife to work her social connections with the wives of other businessmen to get dinner invites where "business" can be discussed and deals made because social connected translated into trust and a willingness to take a chance.

[quote] How many of the old money “400” families are still prominent in NYC today? Are there Schermerhorns, Van Cortlandts, etc. still running around NYC?

There are still wealthy Roosevelts and Rhinelanders (Edith Wharton was a Rhinelander). I'm not sure about any of the others.

I hope it focuses more. Downton caught fire in Season 1 because it had focus: everything flowed outward from the entail story and it was character driven. Then, like anything that succeeds, it got stupid to appeal to the most basic audience favourites. Maggie's one liners! Mary and Edith's snark! Mrs. Hughes telling us the times were changing even though they didn't really! (OK, maybe not that one.) Maybe the shot in the head was the start of focus.

Probably not. Still, dammit, I like it more than I did.

Streep Spawn 3 is 30 years old and giving a terrible performance. Meryl was 29 when she made The Deer Hunter and 33 when she did Sophie's Choice......

The apple has rolled a long way from the tree.....downhill.

The problem with Streep's daughters is the fact they apparently all inherited their acting talent from the Gummer side of the family.

Has this show been renewed? I really enjoy it.

I think I hate all the characters on this show and not in a they're so bad they're good type of way. The Russells are obnoxious and unbearable. They're trying to worm their way into old money society but they're are being such mean spirited dicks about it, why would anybody of that snobby set want to have anything to do with them?

Meryl Streep daughter # 3 comes across as an ungrateful, know it all cunt. Would a 19th century country girl from PA, who had no money and no prospects, lucky enough to be taken in by rich relatives, be that much of an out spoken bitch to everybody? I actually cheered when the spinster aunt told her to shut the fuck up at dinner and let somebody else talk for once.

Surprisingly, the only character I do like is dowager Agnes. She tells it like it is and half the time she's actually right, if her dumb sister and naive niece would bother to listen to her.

Give me Agnes and Mrs Astor and their rule over old money and how it's changing. I do can without the rest.

You keep saying you “hate it” yet you keep repeating the same post and watch it. It’s just an entertaining show.

I didn’t like Coons at first but now I’m loving her and Bertha. Maybe I was hoping for a campy Joan Collins villainous performance.

Racist troll at r294

[quote]Is there even a society any longer?

No, my dear. You have Kardashians and their ilk.

[quote] I actually cheered when the spinster aunt told her to shut the fuck up at dinner...

Did she use those words?

Virtue-Signaller at R421.

If only r423, but no, that isn't how it's done.

[quote]The problem with Streep's daughters is the fact they apparently all inherited their acting talent from the Gummer side of the family.

Well that and of course it never occurring to any of them to try something else, anything else besides mechanically doing the Mom is a movie star, I guess I'm an actress too.

[quote]Racist troll at [R294]

Satire is verily and truly dead.

The Gummer son Harry chose to go in a different direction career-wise, though. Louisa apparently considered several other careers besides choosing acting.

There still is a kind of moneyed society in NYC (as David Columbia's diary always shows us), but it's not based on old families so much anymore. That was a pre-Jet Age idea that assumed families would stay in one place forever, and that just hasn't been the case.

You can still turn up members of Old Money there, and in other American cities too; but the world has just changed too much to make that old notion of money needing to stay within families for generations for the people to be taken seriously to work anymore. It's a good thing, too, because as Edith Wharton suggested, it's bizarrely undemocratic. Why reproduce virtually an aristocracy in a country that abolished the actual aristocracy?

True, but not sure replacing it with an oligarchy has been much better r429

[quote]Satire is verily and truly dead.

Are you a top or bottom, R427, and can you help me with English homework?

Thank you, Lord, for this small mercy at the twilight.

The Gummer side might not be great at acting, but as the name suggests, they are experts at blowjobs!

I’m looking forward to tonight’s episode!

Matt Roush on tonight's episode:

"In an eventful chapter of the entrancing 1880s period drama, railroad magnate George Russell (Morgan Spector) leverages the fallout from a recent tragedy to improve his wife Bertha’s (Carrie Coon) social ambitions. Ada (Cynthia Nixon) is distraught when her precious pooch Pumpkin goes missing, which leads to a marvelous scene in which family butler Bannister (Simon Jones) goes to the Russell mansion to fetch the dog and get a glimpse at how the other side of the street lives. Niece Marian (Louisa Jacobson) goes much farther afield, paying an awkward visit to Peggy’s (Denée Benton) family home in Brooklyn."

[quote] Niece Marian (Louisa Jacobson) goes much farther afield, paying an awkward visit to Peggy’s (Denée Benton) family home in Brooklyn."

Great. Two full threads about how she sucks in that episode.

Here’s a idea. Don’t read the threads then!

I like that title though.

Bannister, tell Niece Marian I want to speak to her after tea.

Can’t fucking wait

R439, for tonight?

It’s official.

Omg I just ignore that snot, Louisa. She’s not even on it that much

Niece Marian needs to get run over by a horse and buggy. She’s terrible.

Peggy needs Marian as a buffer? I hope we get her whole story soon instead of this dragging out.

Glad there will be a second season. Think of all the jobs it will create.

And the joy it will bring us.

Near the beginning of the last decade of the last century, I was having dinner at the tres popular Gray Brothers Cafeteria in Mooresville, Indiana, and who some come traipsing through but the whole damned Gummer clan (husband Don is from Indy, and they had a house just south of the Cafeteria in a MacMansion place).

Dame Gummer was pushing one kid in one of those high chairs on wheels....and she was obviously pregnant with another kid.

The high chair hit a ridge in the carpet or some other imperfection and started to tip forward. Mrs. Gummer saved it and pulled it back against herself.

I think the unborn baby was Louisa and that trauma obviously caused her serious lack of acting acumen.

In that moment I could see Meryl Streep's face as though she was thinking: "Should I let the chair fall and injure my baby or should I use all my strength in my condition and risk harming my unborn child?"

It really was like watching "Sophie's Choice" being performed in front of me......unforgettable. And if it had been possible, I would have given her my piece of strawberry pie as a reward.

You know that you are the greatest living actress when comments about you dominate a thread about a show with which you have no affiliation whatsoever.

Bizarre that the woman has such huge share of mind with some of you people.

Happy to hear the announcement about a second season but I do wonder if Julian Fellowes and Michael Engler are aware of all the ridicule aimed at the series beyond the bad reviews. Engler is an old NY theater acquaintance of mine as well as a FB friend and before the show debuted he posted a a few things that were met with rapturous Likes and Loves and oohs and ahs by lots of theater friends. But since the debut I never see anyone posting favorable stuff about the show on social media, whereas all my theater friends LOVE All Creatures Great and Small and are always raving about it.

R449 Meryl & the City: The Gilded Years

[quote]Engler is an old NY theater acquaintance of mine as well as a FB friend and before the show debuted he posted a a few things that were met with rapturous Likes and Loves and oohs and ahs by lots of theater friends.

Really? I can barely believe it.

It’s a party tonight in Troy!

Probably also a party in Newport as well.

It’s renewed! Yay!

The sloppy direction is a key problem with this show...maybe that's why Engler's theater pals are now shunning him.

Will Fellowes and Engler listen to any of the criticism and lose some of the less convincing actors? Will they improve the CGI? Will they tamp down the anachronistic costumes? Will they finally get the architectural details right? Will they hire some decent writers? Will they fire Michael Engler?

R165 suggests Marie Louise Hungerford as a possible model for Bertha. I agree. (In Episode Three, Russell teases Bertha about being from County Cavan. She may be based on Alva V, but she's not southern.) Her second husband was John William Mackay, a poor Irish immigrant who became fabulously in mining ( one of the Silver Kings of the Comstock Lode.) As mentioned by R165, they weren't accepted by New York society, but Paris opened it's arms. Mackay later invested in railroads and won a rivalry with Jay Gould in the transatlantic cable business. Footnote: Louise and John MacKay's granddaughter was Ellin MacKay who grew up in New York and at her father's North Shore estate, Harbor Hill, designed by Stanford White. When Ellin married Jewish composer Irving Berlin in the 1920s, it was scandal, and her father disowned her for a time, though his own father had grown up on pig farm in Ireland. His mother's deathbed wish reunited him with his daughter. Ellin Berlin wrote several novels and was happily married to Berlin for 62 years.

I think Cookie's a bit Scottish tonight.

That Bertha is just hard as fucking nails.

R453, tell your friends in Troy they’ll need to hold the champagne celebration down a bit. I’m hearing that most of S2 is being shot in Newport. Because most of the season will be set there.

I think there is still a very large old Aristocratic Class hidden in most Western Societies. I am an Anglo and went to a posh school. So not US. But the way to tell the Old money from the New is still the same way as Gilded Age. They hid it all.

The people with Old money, who invariably were related to members of the English Aristocracy has always seemed the same to me. They have their houses that look well hidden, behind large walls. They never make displays of wealth. They usually belong to Clubs , like London Clubs. They dress well , but never display anything frivolous. They inevitably have dogs, usually Labradors and will inevitably know little or wish to know more about the new rich.

Two things I like about the Old Aristocracy , which you see in Gilded Age slightly ,is the way the servants are almost like family as opposed to staff. You can see the way the servants are treated by the Russell’s . They would be unable to tell you the footman’s name let alone how long he had been with them. The opposite is true in the house opposite. They try to even pay off the cook’s debt on the

Nixon is back to changing her intonation in every other scene and her attachment to the dog is as giddy as Miranda and Che. The dog is about as uncharismatic as Che, too.

Baranski got great ironically funny lines in this one. At least we got one servant's secret while another's is apparently "unspeakable".

Arabella Huntington, model for the scandalous Mrs. Chamberlain not only married a rich old geezer who may have been her "boyfriend" but she later married his nephew. Her tainted money was a foundation for Memorial Sloan-Kettering. She was one of the railroad Huntington's (by her husbands).

Well that kinda hummed along. Mrs. Fane seems like an interesting character. Agnes was entertaining with her No's! But it's curious, Agnes' family seem unconnected with Old or New New York. They just sit at home for the most part. I love Bertha the Bulldozer but she's so one note and we still have no idea why.

Thank God that was Turner and not O'Brien.

Nothing about Marian popping in to surprise Peggy felt real.

Peggy obviously has a good education and breeding. Why would Marian assume her family needed old shoes?

And why would she drop in during "luncheon"?

[quote]Arabella Huntington, model for the scandalous Mrs. Chamberlain not only married a rich old geezer who may have been her "boyfriend" but she later married his nephew. Her tainted money was a foundation for Memorial Sloan-Kettering. She was one of the railroad Huntington's (by her husbands).

Such shameless shenanigans! The scandalous Jezebel!

LOL - Nathan Lane is Mr. McAllister.

You have to give it to him - no one plays effete lapdog like Lane does.

Marian really is an idiot. And what happened to suddenly make her interested in Raikes? And why is he interested in her?

It's hard to root for Bertha when she's so completely charmless.

In terms of being a highly watchable, big budget primetime soap, this is working pretty well. And that's all I'm asking from it.

It was interesting finally to see Morgan Spector shirtless. He's in splendid shape, although it's hard to see why a railroad tycoon would be so buff. But I'm not complaining.

Bannister cunting at the Russells' butler was my favorite thing in this episode.

"It's always interesting to see how other people manage things."

Me-OW!

[quote]It's hard to root for Bertha when she's so completely charmless.

Exactly.

Nice inaccurate for the period semi naked George, though.

So much for the Morrises. Although I understand why the Fanes would be so desperate to ally with the Russells to regain their money, it does seem bizarre that no one would feel at all sorry for Mrs. Morris who is now widowed and saddled with her husband's horrible debts. It may be the Old Money thinks she deserves the shame, but I wish that had been made more clear.

Both Ada and Marian seem retarded. Is that intentional?

Special guest appearance next week by Nathan Lane as Colonel Sanders! I mean, as Ward McAllister!

[quote] And what happened to suddenly make her interested in Raikes? And why is he interested in her?

Well, he's handsome, for one. And he did help her when she was practically penniless.

I bet he's another fortune hunter, though, like Cornelius last week.

[quote] It's hard to root for Bertha when she's so completely charmless.

Isn't that kind of the point, though? I don't think we're supposed to root for her.

Damn, I loved every minute of that r471. That old bitch just sneering at everything in the Russell household.

And one thing about those old families, like the Morrises. I don't think she'd actually be left on her own like a modern widow might. They're all so damn interconnected. She might be some tiresome burden, but there would be relatives to take her and her kids in. And of course, maybe that it is exactly what is happening, since she kind of disappears now I guess.

It looks from the promo like we see Mrs. Morris again next week looking miserable having to stand next to Bertha Russell at the Red Cross function in Dansville, so I guess we'll find out what happened to her.

I liked tonight’s episode. Everything is beginning to gel. And Nathan Lane next week should be a hoot.

R470 He was in an episode of Homeland—Carrie fucked him over—and his body left me speechless.

I agree r479. This one really seemed to work, and have a sense of fun to it. Despite Marian and the stupid shoes, I thought Peggy's story is getting interesting too.

Audra McDonald is a terrific actress. She did so much with her scenes on tonight's episode.

I like the weird relationship between Agnes and Peggy. Agnes will not forgive her for anything she would not forgive Marian or Ada, but she does seem to respect her and like her (as far as their respective stations will allow her).

[quote]Damn, I loved every minute of that [R471]. That old bitch just sneering at everything in the Russell household.

"Oooh, we seem to have been transported to VERSAILLES."

I don't know if Bannister was meant to be bitchy or just honest. My sense was he was trying to help Church and the rest of the Russell staff, and though he was certainly not being polite, it seemed more like he was trying to help them correct their errors if they hoped to have the Van Rhijn and Astor women over.

[quote] And why would she drop in during "luncheon"?

One should only drop at the time specified as being "At Home" on the Carte de visite".

How did Marian wind up in the opera box with the Fanes and Bertha? Wouldn't Mrs. Fane have been loyal to Agnes and not include Marian in the party as she would have known Agnes would be furious if her niece was consorting with Bertha? I feel like I missed a beat there or something.

And did I miss something with the Michael Cerveris butler? Who was he following in the street scene?

Fuck me but I think Cynthia Nixon is actually one of the few actors who has any true period style. I think if she were a new actor to all of you you'd appreciate her more.

This episode definitely stepped it up a notch and color me impressed. Simon Jones did a lovely job as Bannister. And even though Kristine Nielsen’s accent can veer from Croatian to Danish even within the same sentence she has the required warmth for the character.

The interior of the Scott residence (particularly the stairway leading down to the foyer) looked very similar to Tessa Thompson’s character’s in the current Netflix film Passing.

What happened to the Cook's gambling problems? Did she join some kind of support group?

Maybe the bitch finally started winning r488. And she better have my money!

[quote] And why would she drop in during "luncheon"?

She didn't know the Scotts would be wealthy, and assumed they were poor and would not keep the kinds of customs wealthy people do, like "at home" hours.

Well, in that case, r490, Why would Marian even expect to find the Scotts at home in the middle of the day as opposed to.....working for a living?

True, r491. Who's running that damn drugstore anyway? I've been waiting an hour for my coke-ey cola!

R482 Maybe on stage.

I'm not clear why you're asking, r490: you're complaining it was disrespectful, and wasn't that the entire point of the scene?

Marian assumed the Scotts would be servants in that brownstone and so would be glad to see her and the old shoes at any hour, and then she discovered how wrong and racist she was to make that assumption.

I don't understand why you're belaboring that point, as if the writers somehow were not trying to convey exactly that.

R484 Bitchy.

Morgan’s hot shirtless bod was shrouded in darkness yet that bitches tities were on full display. Clearly they don’t know their audience.

R496 I thought I was watching Mrs. Danvers from “Rebecca” shirtless, most unsavory.

I'm hoping we are building up to a big scene eventually where Mrs. Astor just read Mrs. Russell to filth. The latter really deserves a true dressing down; and Mr. Astor was already so wealthy even George Russell would not easily be able to get revenge like he did with the other husbands.

[quote] read … to filth

Is this some 21st century Ebonics idiom?

No: it's just a typo.

This is a typo.

[quote] bitches tities

I just watched the first episode and it was "meh" and I'm sorry but we're meant to believe Larry Russell isn't gay and into Marian. He had far more chemistry with Oscar.

Tits!

[quote] I bet he's another fortune hunter, though, like Cornelius last week

But Marian is penniless and he knows it.

Enjoyed the episode.

Again, Bertha’s dresses were stunning. That red dress for the concert and the cape? Swoon worthy.

I noticed that they dress Marian in either yellow or blue. She actually looks beautiful in both.

R502 Yeah I'm pretty sure the actor playing Larry is gay in real life.

I initially was rooting for the Russells, but, they're so cold & spiteful, imagine living in a mansion, with dozens of servants, & moaning because the Old Guard ignores you... I hope the maid becomes the second wife.

Was let down that the nudity promised was female nudity.

Pumpkin is adorable! He or she should take a big, country shit in Agnes's bed. Mutt, indeed...

Again, the writing is so lazy.

WHY was Marian in the opera box?!?!? One second she's having an unhappy tiff with Peggy in the fancy part of Black Brooklyn and then, POOF, she's all happy and sappy at the Opera. The lack of transition between the two scenes was strange.

WHY wasn't the randy lady's maid fired for turning up naked in the master's bed? Even for Victorian melodrama, that scene was absurd.

WHY do they keep on insisting to write material for the servants? We don't CARE about that servants...this isn't that type of show. And, the "every character has a SECRET!" thing is so trite.

And, why embarass Marian for daring to presume that the Black people were probably poor...99.999% of black people of this era WERE very poor. The Scotts certainly aren't your average late 19th century Black family.

I have as much interest in the journalism story in this as I had in Edith Crawley’s magazine. All we need is a Marigold and I may have to bail out.

Ms Baranski had more to do in this episode, and her scenes with Miranda had a bit of life and humour about them. More of this please!

The butler’s visit to the enemy camp was funny and understated, and it was the first time the below-stairs scenes interested me.

The Russells remain pretty horrible. Is the moral of the story really meant to be that the members of the ancien regime are snobby, silly and weak and the nouveaux riches are brutal and cold? Some light and shade in the Russells would be a better choice.

The naked lady's maid totally reminded me of a younger Monica Bellucci when she was all seductive in her master's bed with her hair down. It's a damn shame George had to put on a robe. Him being nude while telling the maid off would've made the scene even hotter.

Baranski gets some great one-liners in the episode, like the one about Brooklyn. I liked that she gave Peggy unsolicited advice about not telling her parents about the political article she is supposed to write for the newspaper next. I think from her point of view, she does mean well, and it's not beneath her to share her wisdom with the help. A previous poster rightfully pointed it out how the Van Rhijn treat their servants like family (because they have a long-lasting relationship) while the Russels must've had their servants for a short period of time and have not created that familiar bond yet, although the daughter's governess must've been with them for a little while since Gladys grew attached to her).

The servant's tour was hilarious, and you just know Fellows had fun writing that one, with all the table and cutlery placement etiquette (Robert Altman did hire Fellows as a historic consultant for Gosford Park).

Rykes is a manipulative player. He totally set things up to make Marion jealous with the other lady in the opera house. I don't know if he knew Marion would be present, but I'm sure he was banking on her receiving word that he's seen in public with another lady. And it's interesting how things are happening for him so fast in NY.

I assume Ann Morris will be back, since Bertha mentioned in this episode that Ann hasn't abandoned her board membership positions at local charities and apparently still wields enough power to not get Bertha near these causes blaming her and George for her husband's suicide.

My apologies, Louisa Jacobson's character is named Marian, not Marion.

Your apologies, R510, the writer's name is 'Fellowes'.

[quote] A previous poster rightfully pointed it out how the Van Rhijn treat their servants like family (because they have a long-lasting relationship) while the Russels must've had their servants for a short period of time and have not created that familiar bond yet…

I'm interested in the master/servant relationship so I've been monitoring it in biographies and literature.

1. Some masters refer to their servants by name —their surname or their Christian name— while others merely ring the servant's bell and otherwise ignore them.

2. Some servants enter the room after knocking on the door and others don't knock at all.

I know one can't make generalisations. For instance, the Woolfs referred to their cook and their maid by their Christian name but they obviously had a fraught, frosty relationship.

I'd love to visit the costume department for the show. I particularly loved Bertha's peacock dress.

[quote]I assume Ann Morris will be back

Next episode. Which strikes me as unexpected because she barely figured in the aftermath of the suicide... which barely figured in anything. He could have built an entire episode around the reaction to the suicide, which would have been a big deal to Old New York. Given Berth a little de Merteuil treatment at the symphony. George could have been softened or nuanced by making provision for the presumably penniless Widow Morris. I only say so because someone linked to an article interviewing the actors who played the Morrises and she made a big point of how it was likely Ann Morris would be reduced to selling hats or dresses and lose her place in society.

[quote](Robert Altman did hire Fellows as a historic consultant for Gosford Park).

Is this the same fellow who won the Oscar for best screenplay - for Gosford Park?

[quote][R502] Yeah I'm pretty sure the actor playing Larry is gay in real life.

Don't think so. There's a girlfriend. But fairly certain the guy playing Streep Junior's unsuitable lawyer pseudo boyfriend from Pennsylvania may be.

I really want Mrs Morris to seek revenge. I’m thinking of her being reinvented as the Marquise de Merteuil, engineering the downfall of the Russell’s daughter…

The writer’s keep hitting us over the head with the fact that Bertha has big plans for her daughter, keeps her chaperoned, etc. Surely the daughter is going to either fall in love unsuitably, or be rescued from a predator of some kind before the end of the series? I suspect the Van Rijns are going to rescue her in some way, and thereby be allied with the Russells.

The daughter seems like a total mouse but in fairness Uncle Julian's barely written anything for her.

And that ratty hair... Bertha, find a proto Sydney Guilaroff stat.

Is The Recently Deceased Mrs Morris related to the Fanes in some way?

And when Streep 3 turned up at the writer's house with some old shoes, didn't the writer/secretary tell Baranski that she'd learned to write at a children's home?

Baranski's character leapt forward last night. I don't know if it's Fellowes' writing is getting better (unexpectedly) or Baranski is just seizing the dialogue and forging it into something through willpower and talent but Agnes is emerging as tough but truly kind, without being sentimental. It's like he's doing what he did with the Maggie Smith character, but he's gotten it right this time. It's all the more amazing for the fact Baranski's character seldom gets to leave the house and barely does anything except forbid.

Also, was last night a new director? I know there's two, one is a man, one is a woman and the woman directed last night. It was certainly the best of the four so far.

R520: Mrs. Fane is related to the Van Rhijns but not the Morrises, so far as has been said.

I think the lady's maid's scheme will work after all. Both George and Bertha got what they wanted: George got his train station, Bertha her entrance into NY's high society. Both will be too busy for the other. George will be more vulnerable to the lady's maid's advances when Bertha is busy mingling with the high society. Their marriage was strong because it was them against the world. Now they follow different paths and may very well drift apart.

"(Robert Altman did hire Fellows as a historic consultant for Gosford Park"

R510 - Fellowes wrote the script for Gosford Park and won an Oscar for his script.

More than half of that Gosford Park script was improvised, including some of the best lines in the film.

R524, meet R516.

Bertha's gown was ostentatious and there was no one to carry the train. Coon sort of acts in this episode.

The maid should have been fired. Fellowes doesn't really seem to know what to do with "the help", although he seems to know his cutlery. The exchange between butlers was priceless and actual did the Russell's help a favor.

It's already clear that Peggy is as well bred as Marian (if not more so). That may be why Agnes made the "don't let your parents know" remark---she knows all the social subtleties. The visit to Brooklyn just seemed like a shopworn cliche. The father probably comes home for lunch on occasion and lets "the help" run the store.

I watched "The Age of Innocence" the other night and having a narrator really helps with a large cast. It meant that the performances could be subtle (subtlety being a theme of the film) and more natural than the soapy stuff here.

The Russells are due for a fall. I hope the much discussed Mrs. Astor delivers the blow.

I know this is minor and I don’t know why it bothered me but why didn’t Peggy take her hat off when she dined with her parents? It’s not like she was in a restaurant.

R528 - A Lady did not take off her had unless she was "in" for the day or night. It was too complicate with all the hat pins to take one's hat on and off for just a meal.

At a formal dinner (say after 5:00 pm) no ladies would wear hats and married ladies only would wear tiaras.

R529, I hope it is not improper for me to say so, but I love you. You are like our very own time traveling advisor.

[QUOTE] I watched "The Age of Innocence" the other night and having a narrator really helps with a large cast. It meant that the performances could be subtle (subtlety being a theme of the film) and more natural than the soapy stuff here.

It’s funny but I was just thinking how much the show “Euphoria” benefits from Zendaya’s character acting as the Our Town “Stage Manager” (in a way) narrating the actions of the other characters on the show. It totally works.

[quote]I watched "The Age of Innocence" the other night and having a narrator really helps with a large cast. It meant that the performances could be subtle (subtlety being a theme of the film) and more natural than the soapy stuff here.

I have a vague collection of Joanne Woodward's narration being added to the movie test audiences were left confused.

Joanne Woodward’s narration of The Age of Innocence was nomination-worthy. The gold standard.

It’s slowly getting better, but it’s work. I loved the dressing down that Streep the 8th got from Peggy. I also loved that Coon’s husband rejected slut maid. It was nice to see a husband not cheat for once and to support his wife. Coon had INCREDIBLE gowns the whole episode OMFG. The blue and white feathers and birds were to die, only topped by the Singer Sargent looking gown with the fab cape she wore to the Academy of Music.

I’m definitely into it, but so wishing that Coon and Baranski weren’t so fucking dour and had fun with it. Yeah, Baranski is not getting top drawer dialogue, but there’s a way of making it better and she’s not succeeding.

I haven’t been able to figure out where they’re doing the opposing mansion exteriors. Are they dressed up streets in Troy, NY, or a backlot in Brooklyn? It’s a combination of street dressing and CGI but I can’t figure out where and online info is limited.

They’ve been in preproduction for a long time R441. A semi famous opera singing friend of mine is currently up for a role as a famous soprano of the period, most likely because they’ll be doing a storyline about the battle between old and new money and how that reared its head as new money built the Met Opera to compete with the Academy of Music. Such a shame that both those houses no longer actually exist.

They start shooting late next month.

Isn't Morgan Spector covered in tattoos?

Morgan’s body really delivered in last night’s episode.

[quote]Surely the daughter is going to either fall in love unsuitably, or be rescued from a predator of some kind before the end of the series? I suspect the Van Rijns are going to rescue her in some way, and thereby be allied with the Russells.

The person they need to save her from IS Oscar van Rhijn.

It's interesting that if you came from a particular family, it's fine to be a golddigger. But, if you didn't come with a pedigree, it was a problem for society people.

I always find it fascinating that the English aristocracy just looked the other way when members were openly golddiggers and married women for money. Even Jane Austen seems to be fine with all the men being golddiggers.

[quote] Baranski gets some great one-liners in the episode, like the one about Brooklyn.

A 150 year old joke that never gets old. In thirty years of living in Manhattan I’ve probably stepped in Brooklyn twice.

Agree with above that one of the best scenes was the cunting of the butlers. Completely forgot about that!

I said it way upthread and I'll say it again: if you can't see the elopement of gay Oscar van Rijn and the Russell's mousey daughter by the finale, you're as blind as Miss Helen Keller.

And I asked upthread but nobody explained why Mrs. Fane would invite Marian to sit in her opera box with Bertha Russell, surely knowing of Agnes van Rijn's hate of the Russell family.

And yes, it made no sense that Marian would show up in the middle of the day and expect to find a family who she assumed were lower working class people to be present.

And yes, it made no sense that George Russell wouldn't have fired the wily ladies maid on the spot. It's not like the maid is presented to us as having any sort of long-standing intimate loyal and intimate relationship with her mistress.

And when is Bertha Russell going to do something to make us care about her? Even Alexis Carrington was more sympathetic and certainly more fun.

Those of you who thought this episode had improved writing? I didn't see that.

I wish they would flesh out Stanford White, the architect, He was such a sleaze ball. Murdered on top of the old Madison Square Garden.

"The process of seduction was a major feature of Stanford's obsession with sex, and it was an inexorable kind of seduction which moved into the lives of very young women, sometimes barely pubescent girls, in fragile social and financial situations—girls who would be unlikely to resist his power and his money and his considerable charm, who would feel that they had little choice but to let him take over their lives. There are indications that Stanford would sometimes adopt the role of a paternal benefactor, and then would take advantage of the trust and gratitude that had been built.

Stanford White sounds more interesting than the stiffs we have so far.

Elizabeth McGovern (Cora Crawley, Downton Abbey) received her only Oscar nomination for playing the role of Evelyn Nesbitt in RAGTIME whose affair with Stanford White led to White’s murder (by Evelyn’s husband).

*Nesbit

[quote]And when is Bertha Russell going to do something to make us care about her? Even Alexis Carrington was more sympathetic and certainly more fun.

Amen, R541. Bertha should be the runaway character in this unwieldy cast and she's dominant but not a fan favourite, at least for me. Humourless, bossy, grasping, obvious - there's still no reason to root for her. Granted, she's such a flinty shark there's a slight reason to see her fail, but I don't get the sense she's supposed to be a villain. She should have worried about the suicide in the context of her ambitions but instead she dismissed it. I remember feeling no sympathy when she was sobbing in bed after her party fail and thinking 'well, what did you expect, you big dope?'

I keep thinking of the line from GWTW: "I've seen eyes like yours above a dueling pistol, twenty paces from me and they aren't a pleasant sight. They evoke no ardor in the male breast. That's no way to handle men, my dear." (Rhett)

That's the Bertharaptor. She needs a coach. Maybe it's Fane. That actress popped last night, I thought.

Yet I still find Coons really watchable. She commands the screen just by being on it, though with so little to deliver with. I'm rooting for the character and the writing to get better.

Coons was better last night, but she's mostly seemed to walk through this series like she's reading a grocery list. Betha should be the one you love to hate or the unlikely underdog. Instead, she's just not very interesting. Others reactions to her are more interesting than she is.

Mrs. Bruce is quite unfortunate looking. She reminds me of one of those pig people in "The Twilight Zone" Eye of the Beholder.

It’s Coon, not “Coons.”

I know but Coons makes me feel less racist.

All you had to do is look at Peggy’s education, bearing and clothes to know that her family was not working class.

I actually thought the Peggy thing was really clever, because it illustrated the accidental, careless prejudice that comes from assumption in a lot of white people.

I was aghast at Marion’s behavior at the Scott’s house. At first, I couldn’t figure out why she was staring at the house with her bug eyes. I thought the actress was trying to indicate that she thought it was in poor condition, but of course, she was actually surprised at how nice it was. I’m just not seeing why she thought it would be a good idea to randomly come to Brooklyn (which was even more of a trek back then as it can feel like now) and then show up to someone’s house during a private family birthday lunch with a bag of old shoes. I guess it’s more “period-appropriate” for her character as opposed to the woke girl we’ve been treated to so far. But, just, wow. It would be interesting to see this same scene with a more competent actress.

Like Peggy’s father, I would have been livid.

A trigger warning should really be at the beginning of the show if there are going to be titties.

I thought the birthday party at the Scott house was on Sunday, but I may have heard it wrong.

I am also wondering who the butler is following in the street? It seemed to be a young lady - maybe it's his secret daughter.....

Mr. Fane has possibilities for a nude scene. Perhaps he and young Mr. Russell could have a 3-way with the Adams progeny.

Yeah, maybe Marian is just a moron. She's supposed to be a plucky little rebel, but maybe she's just too stupid to understand what is going on around her.

Mr. Fane reads gay.

Not another Ada, please, Lord.

[quote]It's already clear that Peggy is as well bred as Marian (if not more so).

The difference is that being Black Peggy can never afford to relax and allow good breeding or manners to slip. She needs to be beyond reproach in order to be safe. Marian can make slip ups and someone will look for an excuse for her behavior of one does not exist. If Marian does slip up, since she is attractive and of good breeding she is likely to be pardoned after a suitable "punishment". If Peggy slips up it better be known only to people who possess no great prejudice toward her or she won't come back from it, Black folks seldom get second chances.

r529 Thank you for that, I thought something like that was the case but it's nice having it clarified. Please continue to shed light on things like this.

I've watched the first three episodes and OMG this show is boring! I really tried to like it because Downton Abbey was one of my guilty pleasure shows back when it was on the air, but woof this show just really feels half-assed.

R506 Yes, Larry and Oscar actually have more chemistry and I actually think it would've been a better twist if Oscar and Larry were the Lady Mary/Matthew of the series.

I would disagree that Peggy would continue to wear a hat at the table, celebrating her father's birthday in her family home in that sort of intimacy. That would have been considered rude and impertinent by her parents in that household, even in terms of historic etiquette. If Marian had been invited to sit at the table, ye, she would have kept her hat on.

Peggy's hat would only need to be secured with a hat pin or two and with the aid of the maid would have been no particular trouble to remove and then don once again upon leaving. No big deal in the dressing of the period. This is the sort of detail that I feel the show gets all wrong - in trying to be historically accurate they are dramatically and theatrically inaccurate and distracting.

For those of you having a difficult time understanding Marian's ignorance I've got a little story. When I was in college, late 70's early 80's, I met a guy who thought all Black people were garbage men because the only Black people he ever saw were the garbage men that picked up the trash in his town. We had tv then and this guy couldn't wrap his head around the idea that Black people were involved in and worked in many different professions. How your mind works determines how you see (or don't see) the world.

[quote] And I asked upthread but nobody explained why Mrs. Fane would invite Marian to sit in her opera box with Bertha Russell, surely knowing of Agnes van Rijn's hate of the Russell family.

R541, Mrs Fane is now campaigning to get the Russells accepted, so it does make sense that she is starting on a low level of the ladder she wants the Russells to climb.

Agnes and Ada are not going to accept an invitation which includes the Russells (yet), but Marian will accept one issued by the Fanes. And she showed in the first episode that she is happy to know the Russells: she just doesn’t want to anger her aunts.

Agnes may be unhappy when she realises Marian has been in Bertha’s company, but Bertha has now been introduced to snob society not only by the Fanes, but by a member of the van Rijn clan. Thus begins her climb to the altitudes inhabited by Mrs Astor.

They are all involved in the support of the Red Cross and the event was a Red Cross fundraiser.

I am intrigued by Bertha, I bet she's a great fuck, all that control and anger has to shake loose at some point to George's benefit.

George is no fool, if he slips up now and anyone finds out about his infidelity that ruins his wife's quest to be accepted into society which benefits him in many ways. Did I see him weaken for a split second when the maid was giving her "you big powerful man come fuck me" speech? Thought I saw just a flash of him wanting to ruin her. I hope he never picks that kind of whore to cheat on Bertha with, if he's going to cheat, he should at least do it with someone better than that scrawny stupid maid.

Did anyone else see an "I can't believe I have to be nice to this broad' flash across Fane's face when she was sitting behind Bertharaptor in the box?

Not firing that hussy maid is a plot contrivance.

[quote]Not firing that hussy maid is a plot contrivance.

Hoping not, wondering if it is George's way of testing her, seeing how depraved she is. If she sticks around and endures the humiliation for a while it tells him just how low she is, it also tells him he can exploit her.

When she entered and did her version of dropping trou, I thought: Carrie Coon isn't as fat as I thought she was.

Agreed that this episode was the best so far for all the reasons mentioned - the look of the city, suddenly, seemed like a period NYC where real people lived. So far the sets/CGI have seemed so oddly artificial... like a ride at Disneyland. In this episode suddenly the city seemed crowded and noisy.

The lady's maid not being fired for shaking the tits in the master's bed? Unless there's a plot point here that's developed later, makes no sense at all.

[quote] I would disagree that Peggy would continue to wear a hat at the table, celebrating her father's birthday in her family home in that sort of intimacy.

It was her mother's birthday. That's why she came. That's why they were all eating dinner at the house. But the situation got so tense for Peggy that she used Marian's appearance as an excuse to leave early.

Marian is the typical do-gooder who has no actual life experience and awareness. It was, as Peggy pointed out, Peggy who lend her the money in the first place to get to NY and Marian shows up with second hand shoes? I would've taken those shoes and used them to chase that dingbat out of my house. It's a stark contrast between Marian and Agnes. Agnes has life experience and her life experience and knowledge backs her snobbish attitude up. Marian is just trying to shake things up without knowing how the world actually works and makes a damn mess every time.

[quote] And yes, it made no sense that George Russell wouldn't have fired the wily ladies maid on the spot. It's not like the maid is presented to us as having any sort of long-standing intimate loyal and intimate relationship with her mistress.

It was established in previous episodes that the bitch maid (Turner?) came from an Old Money house and thus her value to the Russells and Bertha in particular was to help educate her in the Old Money ways. (vs other help who haven't worked in similar houses)

It's a funny scene, but you would think the butler of the Russells would know how to treat honorable guests and which table settings would be suitable (surely he can't rely only on his nouveau riche employers to tell them which table setting they prefer?). Or at least have access to book resources to fall back on. Him being dumbfounded about the vast differences makes me wonder about his credentials and how the Russells are supposed to host and entertain when they can't even get the basics right? What good does a French chef do when his dishes clash with the very high society Bertha wants to impress?

Would Mrs. Morris really be left destitute?

She's obviously from a prominent family herself since there's no way her husband's social position could account for her current status. Also, she has children who no longer lived at the family home.

Would her family, as well as her other children, have a vested interest in ensuring that she not become a social pariah in order to maintain their own social positions?

They should go the Lily Bart path for Mrs. Morris’s character.

The suicide was the issue. That line about it being wrong to bury him in consecrated ground was supposed to be the tip. You can't get around the stain of the suicide, though I guess they will because Mrs. Morris was in the scenes for next week.

I know that the suicide is going to be an issue and would likely result in a decline in her social standing, not to mention her loss of wealth.

But, I can't imagine that her family or her children would willingly add her becoming impoverished and likely having to - gasp - work to support herself. One of them would as least take her and house her. I mean, having your mother becoming a hooker or selling flowers on the street corner is a whole lower level of degradation.

Yeah, that's reasonable. I posted upthread the actress gave an interview where she spoke about the social isolation because of the suicide and the likelihood a woman like that would have to open a hat or a dress shop to survive. It was made pretty plain whatever money she had with her husband is largely blown up by Russell's inflation of the stock. So she'd have the proceeds from the sale of her house and contents she didn't keep. She wouldn't be destitute but much reduced.

R521, the director of last night’s episode (Salli Richardson-Whitfield) also directed last week’s episode.

R535, the facades of the opposing mansions on East 61st Street are shot on a backlot in Old Bethpage on Long Island.

Oooh sez it's low to sell flowers?

Though again r578, I think these families are so intertwined that she wouldn't just be left to fend. That's a modern thing, since we're so atomized and scattered. In Old New York, I think there would be a big family discussion about what to do with the widow and the kids, and somebody would just have to take them in in some capacity. Someone mentioned Lily Bart, but Lily wasn't established. She was trying to get in. Mrs. Morris is established, she's already in, and no doubt surrounded by relatives who are also very much in society. I don't think it would ever be an individual matter. It would be a family matter.

Who is Mrs. Bruce?

The funny lookinv short lady who asked the bald servant where he’d go wandering off to.

R582, pretty sure she's the multi-accented cook at the Van Rhinestone house. I think she was Polish last night, in a Sophie's Choice tribute cover to suck up to Streep Jr.

[quote] And I asked upthread but nobody explained why Mrs. Fane would invite Marian to sit in her opera box with Bertha Russell, surely knowing of Agnes van Rijn's hate of the Russell family.

Normally she would have not have, but the Fanes would have lost their house had George Russell not saved them financially, so they are now heavily in the Russells' debt. Mrs. Fane is starting small by bringing Bertha to hear what was to Agnes a newfangled symphony (by 1882 standards) by a living composer, so knowing Agnes well she probably knew Agnes was extremely unlikely to attend.

It may be that Agnes will be furious if she finds out Marian was in the same box as Bertha, although Mrs. Fane is probably hoping (wrongly) that Marian will not say anything. (For reasons of weak scripting, though, Marian is always dropping bombshells on her aunts she should not.) However, although Agnes would vociferously show her displeasure, I don't think she could destroy Mrs. Fane socially with disapproval the way Mrs. Astor could.

We have the sense at this point (as was true in real life) that it's ultimately Mrs. Astor at this time who makes the decisions as to who is in and out of high society. Since Ward McAllister was Mrs. Astor's Head Flying Monkey, taking Bertha to see him allows the possibility he might approve of her and allow her in. I doubt that will happen though.

I was surprised last night we saw no comments from the Fanes or the Schermerhorns (whom Mr. Raikes was with) about Bertha's over-the-top dress and cloak. They would never have worn clothes like that to the opera. I would expect just as Bannister was signalling to the Russells' butler that colored goblets and fruit forks are not the thing in society lunch place settings, Mrs. Fane will have to warn Bertha that extravagant cloaks and dresses should not be worn to Ward McAllister's. I wonder if Bertha will listen, though.

I do agree with someone who said above it's la real possibility Mrs. Morris's other relatives will take her in, and may even pay off the debts. These people were so intermarried that it is likely Mrs. Morris is from another wealthy old family herself (they suggested last night Mrs. Fane is from a much wealthier family than her husband's, for example, and that her father had helped them maintain their current lifestyle).

In the scenes for next week she looks both subdued (for her) and over the top (as expected) at the same time.

[quote]Since Ward McAllister was Mrs. Astor's Head Flying Monkey, taking Bertha to see him allows the possibility he might approve of her and allow her in. I doubt that will happen though.

What's left to do once she climbs over the wall to respectability? They better not resolve it.

All the talk about the butlers made me empathize with the Russell's butler. Can you imagine being the one trying to tell Bertha this is how they do it across the street?

[quote] Who is Mrs. Bruce?

She's the housekeeper at the Russells. She's played by the bizarre-lloking but beautifully voiced Broadway star Celia Keenan-Bolger, the sister of New York's most famous gay midget.

[quote] [R582], pretty sure she's the multi-accented cook at the Van Rhinestone house.

No, that's Mrs. Bauer, the gambling addict.

If they haven't played games with the edit around :36 there's a shot of the Bertharaptor setting eyes on prey, followed by a shot of Nathan Lane, strutting. They'd make a kind of of proto-Carrie and Stanford by the look of it. She's dressed in taupe (?) or silvery satin, with hardcore jewels.

[quote] It's a funny scene, but you would think the butler of the Russells would know how to treat honorable guests and which table settings would be suitable (surely he can't rely only on his nouveau riche employers to tell them which table setting they prefer?). Or at least have access to book resources to fall back on. Him being dumbfounded about the vast differences makes me wonder about his credentials and how the Russells are supposed to host and entertain when they can't even get the basics right? What good does a French chef do when his dishes clash with the very high society Bertha wants to impress?

We've been told the Russells are new implants to New York from another American city, and that until just before the show begins they lived in a less fashionable part of Manhattan before they moved to Fifth Avenue, and used to hobnob with less fancy people.

The Russells' butler seems to have been brought with them from downtown, and was probably originally with them in whichever American city they were in before New York. He knows the society fashions from the former city, but he probably does not know the fashions among the Old Knickerbockers (how could he, since they were famously insular?). I would expect the meeting with Bannister was very salutary for him, and from now on the dinner goblets will all be clear and arranged in a square rather than in a line. Part of his job is to make sure what the Russells do is in keeping with the etiquette of the society they're trying to break into, even if Bertha will not hold back their opulence.

This is why if I had money I'd be new money... I can't keep my servants straight.

[quote] And yes, it made no sense that George Russell wouldn't have fired the wily ladies maid on the spot. It's not like the maid is presented to us as having any sort of long-standing intimate loyal and intimate relationship with her mistress.

He absolutely could not have fired her on the spot. Had he done so, everyone in the household would have found out she was in his bedroom naked late at night, and the scandal would have leaked out.

Also, although George would not have sex with her last night, he may be open to change his mind in the future. As much as he clearly loves the Bertharaptor, it cannot be always easy living with someone so cold and merciless. In real life, Willie Vanderbilt cheated on Alva Vanderbilt (Bertha's model).

How I wish Ward McAllister had been played by another actor...

Word McAllischter!

[QUOTE] Mrs. Fane will have to warn Bertha that extravagant cloaks and dresses should not be worn to Ward McAllister's

I think it was implied in the latest episode that McAllister would be coming to Bertha’s house since he’s so curious to see it. It’s the only one he hasn’t already seen in that area.

Get rid of the downstairs people. I don’t care about their troubles, and Fellowes and his team can’t handle so many narratives. If the best you can produce is half-assed, don’t fo it. FYI: The new Downtown movie trailer is out. Bertha is so preoccupied with her daughter’s vagina that she took hers out of the game. She needs to get back on the Mr Russell horse and then maybe she would relax a little. Either that or give the whore maid a NY beatin’. Marian showing up uninvited felt very awkward. I don’t know the customs of the time, but it felt uncomfortable, and that’s before she opened that bag of old shoes. That lawyer has me confused. He’s cute so I want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he’s too slick and has the last name Raikes. Oscar is role playing a gay E.A. Poe and I’m loving it. Miranda (Ada/Cynthia) is annoying and should be seen and not heard from this point forward.

Re: R597, there are typos. Use context clues and get over it. My iPhone is an overriding twat.

Why did Marian even open the bag of old shoes? She saw that they were a family of at least some wealth. You'd think she would just keep her mouth shut and say she wanted to surprise her friend.

[quote] Marian showing up uninvited felt very awkward.

That was the entire point of the scene. She made the racist assumption Peggy's family would be poor and would not observe upper-class customs like visiting hours just because Peggy is black. She then realized how rude and racist she was being.

That whore-maid who wanted to fuck George Russell is UGLY! I don’t blame George, I wouldn’t want to fuck her either.