America will protect Ukraine

Where is Ukraine?

Pay us first.

OP Only if the UN become involved, the US effectively invading the Ukraine to protect it would be unpopular and problematic.

Have you heard the joke about Edna Everage giving an atlas to George Bush?

America can’t even protect its own goddamn border, we’re supposed to be worried about Ukraine’s?

Russian, or other state actor, thread taking the temperature and beat testing ideas…

Does Ukraine have oil?

We'll be sending Biden Hunter to get Russian soldiers addicted to crack.

I'm ok with this but in exchange they should allow us to go back to calling them "The Ukraine." I always forget.

Ukraine should be used as an excuse to have Putin assassinated. Little fucking mongoloid creature. Almost as ugly as the Trump clan.

Putin will invade. The US won't do anything except freezing some savings account. EU will send some stern notes to Moscow and debate sanctions for five years. China will offer Russia some deals in the meantime.

Why would any foreign country trust the Americans to help them? When the going gets tough, the Americans run and leave the allies behind to get slaughtered.

Well so far the UK, France and Germany have issued warnings to Russia. Though they're not sending troops but will probably consider sanctions post invasion and refusal to withdraw. Good luck guys?

[quote] I'm ok with this but in exchange they should allow us to go back to calling them "The Ukraine." I always forget.

When I was a kid it was called Ukrania

Then the Ukraine.

Now Ukraine.

I’m a little sick of their nonbinarism.

America is not going to protect Ukraine. Russia has always known that.

Why is everybody all “no boots on the ground” about it all. This is war. How long are we going to let the fascists kick us around? We spend 700 billion a year on the military just to watch all that equipment sit there and rust.

Let’s stop all these attacks once and for all.

Whatever happened to war hawks?

Here come the refugee floods all over again. Watch everyone complain about the refugees and not talk about why they are there like last time. They don’t come from Pluto you know.

Why hasn’t the squad tried to do anything to help Ukraine?

“the US effectively invading the Ukraine”

Who is saying that?

They could just do some light bombing, for the faint of heart.

*feint

The military is useless if you can’t use it times like these. There are only a handful of free countries left. We have to have each other’s backs.

Can you imagine all the slaughtered Ukrainian children? The millions of immigrants driven into the heart of Europe? I think the world has suffered enough at the hands of the fascists.

Biden is the Commander in Chief. Surely he will defend our allies.

Why?

Let Europe worry about it

This is going to be another Syria. Then on the next country. This is never going to end at this rate.

Can the world handle another 25 million immigrants? Yikes.

Nip it the bud.

The U.S. used to be able to slap a war together in a long weekend. It’s getting rusty.

A war can bring the country together. Finally. It can give us all something really around and give us another 50 years of prosperity. Sometimes it must be done. To save democratic ideals and all the things our veterans have died for.

Isn't America tired of being kicked around by all these despots? They just can’t be happy with their billions and palaces?

I think deplorables and liberals could agree on that.

CFR intern, you need to clean the espresso machine after you make a mess. Same with you Bechtel and Raytheon interns. And then get back to work demanding war.

No. We will not. We will use sanctions and embargo, and maybe supply the Ukrainians with weapons and technical support, but we will not have boots on the ground.

[quote] How long are we going to let the fascists kick us around?

[quote] Isn't America tired of being kicked around by all these despots?

Eh... in what way are we kicked around when Russia invades Ukraine? How is America kicked around when Putin invades Ukraine? There are some pretty precise rule sets that state when the US should get involved: When the US or a NATO partner gets invaded. Or: When the UN okays sending troops. Otherwise: Stay out of it.

The USA won't get invaded by Russia. NATO hasn't even considered making Ukraine a partner. (I don't believe Ukraine didn't ask either.) So, no emergency on the NATO front. The UN won't say much because you know who sits in the security council. So I don't see any immediate need for the US to send troops. If you're concerned about long term repercussions of Russia's imperial itches, do something in non-armed ways.

Militarily? No. We'll make Russia pay with stronger economic sanctions. The USA can not be the bodyguard of the rest of the world. If the rest of the European continent doesn't care enough about Ukraine to send their troops in to help, then that's on them, not us.

“but we will not have boots on the ground.”

Why not? This is a red line that is a lot of media people say but I’ve never heard that officially.

American companies are being attacked every day by the same players. It’s the same enemies as Ukraine and I hope America finally fights back.

^ Fill me in please. Which companies, which same players?

If Russia invades Ukraine a couple of things will happen almost immediately.

1. Russia is cut off from SWIFT, crippling its economy which will be felt by nearly everyone in that country.

2. Russia will cut off supplies of gas to Europe. This will cause some short term pain but it can be mitigated by LNG brought in from the Middle East and Norway.

3. Ukraine’s army is significantly better trained and equipped than it was during its last confrontation with Russia in 2014, including Javelin anti-tank missiles from the U.S and missile-armed drones from Turkey which have already proven effective in Donbass and has Putin nervous (see teh recent conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia where the former’s use of these drones won the war for them).

4. There will be a mysterious nationwide power blackout in Russia, lasting days to weeks before power is fully restored. Meanwhile thousands either freeze to death or die of carbon monoxide poisoning from portable gas heaters.

Forgot to add to #2 above. Sure, Russia can retaliate by cutting off gas supplies but they’ll be cutting off their nose to spite their face: they lose their primary source of revenue.

I don’t know her.

What's the blackout (4) about? Where would that be coming from?

Well that’s wild card I added to the list. You can bet that both Russia and Ukraine will engage in cyber warfare at the start of any conflict, the latter possibly getting clandestine help from the U.S.

I hope so, Ukrainian men are sexy, or at least the ones I've met in the US. Like getting a Russian guy without the baggage of Russia. Tall, lanky, uncut, dry sense of humor, sexy accent. Please protect those sexy men.

R38/r43, I can see cyber warfare starting to make splash in some way. And I would welcome that.

[QUOTE] Can you imagine all the slaughtered Ukrainian children? The millions of immigrants driven into the heart of Europe?

Yeah I can imagine that—if we got involved and turned it into a war. The next thing you know, Ukrainians will be in the streets burning American flags and blaming us for everything that happened.

I feel like the U.S. has been tricked into receding into not defending itself, and freedom at large, and is letting itself be done in by a thousands cuts.

This will give this deplorable something focus on and let off some steam.

If they love freedom and liberty so much they should be fighting for our allies.

Where is the squad. You haven’t heard a peep from them. Mainstream Democrats are calling for action.

OP replied in this thread 18 times already, most notably in blocks from R 16 to 24 and 46 to 48. Didn't realize it at first, but will stop feeding the troll now.

Right? Right?

OP, let's don't.

Remember it was Angela Merkel who vetoed Ukraine NATO membership.

OP you reply to yourself a lot you dumb fuck.

The EU needs to build up their own army. Putin's aggressiveness has A LOT to do with Merkel and Macron appeasing Russia.

Excuse me, Miss Ukraine, with all due respect, I have problems of my own.

OP, why is it incumbent on America to protect them? Europeans have spent the last 20+ years telling America to keep our military out of other countries, to stop meddling in other countries' politics, stop engaging in military conflict, to stop using our position on the world stage to 'bully' other countries, to get our military bases out of Europe, to scale back our military because the size is unnecessary, to stop spending so much on defense because it's excessive, and to generally fuck off because the world would be better off without our constant interference and perfect if we didn't exist. We shouldn't help them, nor should we help any other European country. The rest of the world wants us to stay out of their business, let's show them what that looks like in practice.

Is it OK to be gay in Ukraine?

R34 central Europe would wecome every Ukrainian here. They're decent people. However, that's not the point here. Actually we're dreading both options: Russia setting a precedent, simply invading a country and no one can do anything about it, and Russia invading the Ukraine and a war next door. For those advocating airstrikes and similar: Have you lost your goddamn mind? Even the Ukrainians I know play it close to the chest concerning what they think is more awful - that a foreign power assists them or that no one does. At the Merkel/Macron hater it's a popular narrative that poor Putin has to retaliate out of self defence because the NATO (or the EU) are diminishing his influence. It's obviously not true. Russia did nothing to endear itself to its neighbours, at all. That's why there is absolutely no love lost between the Ukraine and Russia nor has there ever been. That and, you know, the clusterfuck the USSR was. Have you seen how Russia actually is? It's okay if you're an oligarch.

Ukraine has the biggest plane in the world, the Antonov 225 Mryia.

Fascinating!

Little Putty would love to get his hands on that one.

OP has switched IP addresses and now posts as 51, 53 and 58. From his 20-something replies I'm assuming he's a Ukranian troll. He could be Russian, too. Trolls from Russia do not necessarily try to further a certain point of view. They're usually content to just stir up shit and spread confusion and uncertainty to destabilize.

Strictly legally speaking, Europe or the US, or any other country are not obligated to support Ukraine. They are actually prohibited to interfere with military action. If Ukraine wants military support it would need to shore it up with treaties or NATO membership. And Ukraine doesn't have any of it. They opted not to request joining the EU, and they have not joined NATO. Trolling for support in a gay online forum may not be the most effective way to get this type of support. Joining NATO like the Baltic states did may have been a much better way to accomplish this.

They haven't joined NATO because Merkel vetoed it.

Um..Russia supplies Europe with petroluem products. Delivery lines run through Ukraine. They can turn off the taps any time and screw everyone. So, sanctions and UN backed softcore measures are the only mitigation here.

Of course not. Ukraine is just a tool to screw with Russia. Once it's no longer of use, it will be abandoned to its fate just like Afghanistan. The US influence overseas is falling like dominoes. The whole "encirclement" strategy is failing badly. Both Russia and China are turning the table and extending their influence in the world. Soon, the US and its allies will be the ones encircled.

What do you think NS2 is for R61? The transfer contract of Russian gas running through Ukrainian pipelines to the EU expires in 2024.

Fuck no.

R30, wanting to unite America is not sufficient reason to start a war. War involves the suffering and death of thousands. And some in Ukraine want to be part of Russia, or at least don't strongly oppose it...they are cultural cousins, not bitter enemies who want to kill each other. Meanwhile, Russia has been suffering inflation and poverty levels for near 44 percent of the population. I don't want their soldiers to die just because I don't like Putin, or American soldiers, or the Ukrainian people who would suffer terribly in a war. Prevent the war, maintain the peace. The US needs attention to it's domestic conflicts, not a war.

R59 is the stinking troll in here. Who made you the boss? You don’t get to make decisions for America. Have you even even been here?

I have had enough of these foreigners trying to tell America what to do.

R62 let the cat out of the bag. So we are anti US now? Disgusting pigs.

The foreign trolls protest too much

What are they afraid of? Ukraine having allies? I hope these fascist get what’s coming.

R59 thinks he can control U.S. foreign policy from his hovel. Good luck with that. His dial up internet is why it takes so long to respond.

Why don't Germany, and the countries like Poland, Slovakia, and Hungary which are all in Ukraine's backyard worry about protecting it? It isn't America's problem.

Must be bedtime in Moldova.

Robby Benson says we should hold off on invading Ukraine.

These bully fascists are a plague.

R59 is 100% correct

Biden is the commander in chief.

Mighty Joe is old school and has something up his sleeve.

R73 is 100% correct.

France, Australia, UK, Japan also need step up and any other country who likes freedom and liberty.

Where is the celebrity crusade to #saveUkraine ?

Where is Bono and his concert?

R79 No Jews to blame, so no one cares.

Please Americans, stop protecting democracy. Didn't you see all the Middle Eastern refugees roaming around Europe.

[quote]And some in Ukraine want to be part of Russia, or at least don't strongly oppose it...

That's false, again and again Ukrainians expressed they wanted less cooperation with Moscow and more with the EU and USA. Why do you think they kicked Putin's puppet Yanucovich out of the country?

But nice try Dimitri!

The question of whether the EU should build up their own combat ready army has been rejected by several NATO generals. The aim was always 2% of the GDP goes to military spending for NATO, but not for the EU doing their own thing.

Most senior NATO officials don't think the EU is ready for pulling off a unified army that doesn't fall into the chaos of discussing dozens of strategy options once things get hairy. The forces that are tearing the EU apart are strong in the last 5 years, they can't agree on anything any more.

The Ukraine?

How about we kill the insurrectionists and traitors in the U.S. like you, OP?

This is Europe's problem. I'm sick of us being the police of the world and getting into everyone's business around the globe. We have problems right here at home that needs to be dealt with aggressively. I really wouldn't mind if we became an isolationist country once again. I think FDR had the right idea by being isolationist when he was president. We really need to put focus on building America back up again. So much focus on the rest of the world is why we're in the predicament we're in now domestically.

It's time to put America first again. Because the lights are flickering. It's time for the UK Australia France Japan and Germany to step up and take some of the global policing burden off of America's hands for a while, just like a poster up thread said. Everything always seems to fall on the United States to take care of. I'm really to see more of a focus on America again. The time is now!

R83, it’s become much more rancorous since 2014, but still there are many people in Ukraine who have family in Russia, as well as a significant minority of around 17 percent who support Russia. So if this became a war, it could be a civil war. And a war fought in Ukraine would be terrible for everyone involved- all those weapons would just end up causing the deaths of thousands of people, and after that was over, the bitterness and hate that led to the war would still be there and probably cause even more wars in the future. If there was a war, there would have to be a lot more at stake than thinking a war would unite the US - wars cause bloodbaths; no one wants to be united by a war. If there’s a way to handle it diplomatically that’s how I hope it’s done.

Who's pulling up troops on the east Ukrainian border, who invaded Donbas and annexed Crimea. The only one warmongering is Putin.

Ex-Nato secretary general: "Finland and Sweden could become members overnight"

In an interview with Yle published on Saturday, former Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen discussed this past week's series of talks between Russian, European and US officials aimed at de-escalating tensions surrounding Ukraine

"In practice, Russia is demanding a veto over Nato enlargement. The doors of Nato will remain open, and we do not want Vladimir Putin to serve as a doorman," he said.

Rasmussen said he does not believe that Russia will attack Ukraine.

"I think a Russian attack would provoke a discussion in Finland and Sweden regarding future Nato membership…so the price would be extremely high for Putin to attack Ukraine," said the former Danish prime minister.

According to Rasmussen, Finland and Sweden are Nato's closest partners.

"If Finland and Sweden applied for membership, we could decide on it overnight. You could be a member the very next day because you meet all the necessary membership criteria," said Rasmussen, who was Nato Secretary General from 2009 to 2014.

R88, yes, he is the only one warmongering. But he’s doing it because he’s in a position of power - he probably doesn’t care about how many people die in Ukraine as long as he, himself, looks good. So, whatever can be done diplomatically to make him feel in less of a position of power, that’s what I would want. A war in Ukraine wouldn’t harm Putin himself. He’ll be far from the front lines - all the physical consequences of war would be felt by Ukraine.

I switch between thinking Putty bit up more than he can chew and he is looking for a way out to save face and Putty is so nuts he will risk Russia's collapse with a full scale war on Ukraine, a war he can't afford and cannot not win.

Good luck with Putty's oligarchs coughing up the money to sustain years and years of war on Ukraine when the West has cut off all his money. Me thinks Putty will have some polonium put in his tea in the near future.

Who keeps telling America to cower away in the core we and abandon all their allies? That was Trumps thing.

He is gone now.

R93, diplomacy is not cowardice. Apparently some 44 percent of people in Russia or possibly as many as 60 percent are living at the poverty line. What could NATO do as a good will gesture that would shift Russian public opinion against Putin’s aggression? Right now Putin is framing it in Russia that NATO are outside military forces trying to interfere; if a war happens he will blame the death toll of the war on NATO refusing to remove military bases. Any war will make Russia particularly bankrupt since it is already deeply struggling, and I believe that war would also destabilize the US, because the cost of it would be tremendous.

Nobody in the current US government is talking about direct military intervention.

Plenty of discussion going around regarding cyberattacks and kneeing Russia in the nuts. (see SWIFT)

Not sure what NATO's plans are at this point.

“This situation looks like a classical example of the “prisoner’s dilemma” in game theory. Neither NATO nor Russia is willing to initiate cooperation, because it may lose its position if the other side uses this at its expense. One way or another, such logic takes place in diplomacy. As it is known from the dilemma, and it was also proven mathematically, the best tactic for both sides is to cooperate. But, as prisoners, NATO and Russia separately choose to maximize their own benefits at the expense of the other side, and this leads to losses for them. It is a trap, and as I demonstrate later in example of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the only way out is to trust your partner.“

BREAKING:

British military aircraft rapidly supplying weapons to Ukraine

Germany denies air rights.

America needs to at the least give Ukraine some of these old rusty weapons that nobody is using.

Where does it say that Germany is denying air rights, R97?

“The C-17 transport aircraft are in flight as we speak, Germany has apparently denied overflight rights judging by the path taken.”

That's a very vaguest assumption R100, there is a myriad of reasons for that particular flightpath.

Could have been a courtesy but the real question is why isn’t everyone helping? Germany should be helping too.

This would have never happened 10 years ago.

Word is Putin is just doing it to flex his muscles because of so much bad publicity over the past few years: his decadent palaces; poisonings; stolen elections; foreign election interference...

It looks like Canada will.

Come on U.S. You can do it too!

The US has supplied Ukraine with a large amount of weaponry, yes?

We need to send in the deplorables. Let them work out some of their aggression.

The love to wave the flag of freedom and go on and on about liberty so where is their voice in this? Now is a chance to put all that patriotism to good use. Americans should unite against the fascists.

Russia has an authoritarian government but I don't think they count as fascist

W T F !!

Germany continues blocking arms exports to Ukraine due to new foreign ‘peace’ policy

Taiwan yes. Ukraine no.

Ukraine is a strategically important country, esp to the EU. Ukrainians want to be part of Europe and NATO. 20 useless years and 2 T dollars waisted on a shithole like Afghanistan, ridiculous! Invest in people that actually appreciate and want democracy.

There has been a foul, yet familiar stench emanating from Germany over the last couple of years. It’s been most pronounced over the last year.

R112 WW1, WW11 - they'll do it again sooner or later.

“Asked about Germany’s refusal to send defensive weapons to Ukraine, as requested by the government in Kyiv, Baerbock said the government’s new restrictive arms export policy is “rooted in our history”.

Uhhhh…

Where are all the other democracies?

They should be lining up to help Ukraine.

[quote] Have you heard the joke about Edna Everage giving an atlas to George Bush?

George Bush rings her up in England in the middle of the night (because he doesn't know about time zones).

He thanks her for the present of the atlas, but he's insistent, he asks "Edna, I'm looking in the index in this atlas but I can't find 'A' for 'Abroad'.

Everyday people don't know anything about Ukraine or care that it exists. Russia is only vilified among white collar professionals, most Americans laugh at TV propaganda against Russia.

A war would be a terrible idea for the Biden administration, it would be massively unpopular with the exact demographics that supply most of the soldiers who fight our wars. You don't want those people protesting a foreign war before it even really begins.

Not to mention war is always a terrible idea.

R110 Taiwan neither. Biden's hands are tied.

“A war would be a terrible idea for the Biden administration, it would be massively unpopular”

This is the great mind trick of 2022. Convincing America that she is not allowed to defend herself nor to help her allies in any way whatsoever.

I don’t agree with that.

R119 That's the most neocon comment I've seen on DL in a long time. Defending ourselves from what, exactly?

The daily ransom ware attacks. They election meddling. The hacking. The cyber attacks. The spreading of guns to Americans through the NRA…they are infiltrating America. On our own soil. The propaganda. The social media onslaught. Sponsoring American politicians. 2016. 2020. What’s next? What are we going to do about it?

If we are being tested, then we have failed the test.

NOTHING?

Not everybody is a shrinking coward.

Germany's tied up in a pipeline deal with Russia, yes?

That would at explain (if not excuse) the corrupt motives behind not sending weapons.

Look at r20.

Now defending ones sovereignty is now considered “neocon”

Clearly the trick worked to convince America that it’s not allowed to even defend itself. Let alone take preemptive action.

What a fall from power and it was too easy.

R120

Look, you either deal with creeping threats or they deal with you.

This goes for termites, rust, neglect…. Either you deal with it or suffer.

This war came to us. We were not asking for it. But it’s here now.

Hi, OP, who is most of the posts on this thread.

Can you go into some detail about what your specific desired action from the U.S. is with regards to the Ukraine?

Are you Ukrainian or something?

TIA.

Everybody get a load of r128:

Spike THREADS Poster has started 0 threads which have received 0 replies, has received 5 WW votes and has posted 7 replies to threads.

The better question is who are YOU?

Most likely an algorithm or bot from the far east

The economic situation out there is now so grotesque and bleak.

For every sucker paying inflated rent there is some millionaire raking it in. They are swimming in money. Not to mention the mega large rental companies. They are printing money. Pure profit.

^ wrong thread

This situation is changing by the hour.

Germany has the cards here. Let’s see how this plays:

Germany cannot rule out Nord Stream 2 as means of pressure, says foreign policy expert

I'm really curious to see what Merkel will do now that she's retired from chancellorhood. If she's accepting a job on a Russian or Chinese industry board or bank, like her predecessor did, it will be a huge blow for Germany. People are already delusioned about government, if they find out mutti Merkel was really a commie stooge all those years, it will have irreparable consequences.

Indeed. It will be interesting to see.

Turkey's Erdogan says Russian invasion of Ukraine not realistic

Interesting

We didn’t protect Georgia when Russian-backed separatists declared South Ossetia and Abkhazia “independent.” See also Transnistria and Nagorno-Karabakh, not to mention Russia’s control over dictators like Lukashenko and Kadyrov (in Chechnya). Putin already took Crimea, arguably more important than the Donbass. We didn’t do shit when separatists shot down MH17, the Dutch didn’t even recall their ambassador from Moscow. The Kremlin has also been backing Serbian nationalists politicians in Bosnia in the hopes of splintering that country’s fragile peace—a strategy that seems to be working. But now because weaponry and troops are being moved to the border (again) we’re supposed to be all up in arms? Not convincing.

WASHINGTON, Jan 18 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden's top diplomat will visit Kyiv this week after talks with Russia ended in a stalemate last week amid concerns in Washington that Moscow is preparing to invade Ukraine.

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken will meet Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy and Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba on Wednesday, the U.S. State Department said on Tuesday.

Blinken then heads to Berlin for a meeting with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock to be followed by a meeting with the Transatlantic Quad, the department said in a statement, referring to a format that involves the United States, Britain, France and Germany.

. @PewResearch

: 62% support Ukraine becoming a NATO member; 28% oppose.

56% say US shd use force to defend NATO ally v. Russia; 37% say don't

@jonathanvswan Is so hot I can’t take it.

It’s all going to come down to Germany, Im afraid.

And the U.S.

but the U.K. and Canada deserve some major respect.

Speaking of Afghanistan - over 40,000 civilians in Afghanistan died in the war, compared to about 2,500 US soldiers. The toll of the war was so heavy in Afghanistan itself that it would put in question how much it could help them, no matter how good the cause, because the war was ongoing and impossible to win. There was one point about 20 years ago when Putin actually wanted Russia to join NATO. For the actual people that live there - not those with money but the average person on the ground- it would be better if this was solved without war. NATO can send troops too as a show of strength but only showing the stick and not the carrot is wrong. Give Putin something he wants and ask something in return.

Terrible. But can you imagine how much worse it would have been without the US fighting back the taliban?

Definitely a mess over there given the terrain. Ukraine is nothing like this. Completely different circumstances.

Shouldn’t even be in this thread. Apples to grapefruits.

We don’t negotiate with terrorists.

Biden's handlers want war.

War is effectively changing from actual combat to financial sanctions. I've thought for a long time that future war will be like that OST episode where Kirk and party land on the planet that does computer war and then their citizens report to the disintegration chambers if their quadrant is hit.

Make Putin a cup of plutonium tea. Invite Dump over, too.

R147, not wanting to compromise and make an attempt at coming to a truce on things has the potential to destroy humanity. In the name of the Cold War we have super-weapons that could destroy cities even by accident. And the US actually spent 11 times what Russia did on national defense - Russia is going through a period of extreme inflation and economic recession such that many think what he’s doing in Ukraine is more posturing in an attempt to gain ground rather than an actual war attempt, since Russia can’t really afford a war. Can you imagine if the money we allocate towards weapons we hope to never use was used on rebuilding the government infrastructure, which badly needs it? That’s what Biden needs, to rebuild the trust in government efficiency and ability to ensure everyone has access to food and shelter. He can’t do that and also fund a war.

Germany signals it could halt gas pipeline if Russia invades Ukraine

The last thing we need is to get into a war with Russia.

We are already in a war. The question is are we going to fight back or just sit back and take it?

R154, it’s more complicated than that. NATO has sanctions on Russia because of what happened in Crimea in 2014 - but aside from the way the annexation of Crimea cost 10,000 Ukrainian lives - and despite that was called a “bloodless war” - the majority of Ukrainians in Crimea had been ethnically Russian - 65 percent. But it’s not as though being ethnically Russian means being pro-Putin; Putin has been suppressing free speech and any opposition parties; people in Russia don’t have much choice. Whether a war would solve things - well, this is a war on Ukrainian soil, and to the extent Russian soldiers would be fighting it, they don’t even necessarily want to be fighting it. Many of the ethnically Russian people in Crimea supported an independent Ukraine but they also had family in Russia and did not want to fight Russian soldiers. So, a show of force by NATO is good, but Putin has too much power not to yield to him on something. He will just throw other peoples’ lives away if he doesn’t get at least something he wants. But with a show of power by NATO maybe that would be less.

DL is neoliberal land. Lots of armchair generals with nothing on the line advocating military engagement on the other side of the planet.

R142, that's from 2015.

Is there a single current service member here? Among all the DLers pushing for "protecting our interests" in Ukraine?

Ukraine: We want to join NATO for protection

Russia: Don’t worry, we are protecting you! Here comes Army, Air Force, all kinds rockets.to keep you safe. Sleep well, friends!

Most people in Russia do not want a war with Ukraine.

Lord help us.

Never give up your nukes in return for a guarantee of protection. You won't get it. Never give up nukes for any reason. For anyone watching.

Even if they turn into loose nukes, R162?

The funny thing is Russia doesn't like all it's neighbors joining NATO but the reason they are joining NATO is because they are afraid of Russia invading them.

[quote] Never give up nukes for any reason. For anyone watching

I hear ya.

I don't see why Ukraine doesn't declare that they will never join NATO, doing so would remove Russia's excuse for invading.

NATO isn't going to invite Ukraine to join while Russia has 100,000 troops on the border, so Ukraine will be giving up nothing. Putin isn't going to live forever, future Ukrainian leaders can claim it wasn't them that made that promise and join NATO if they still want to after Putin. It is better than being invaded.

[quote]I don't see why Ukraine doesn't declare that they will never join NATO, doing so would remove Russia's excuse for invading.

Oh you sweet summer child. What makes you think that Russia wouldn't generate one of 1000 other excuses and use that as a pretext?

R167, because most Russian people don’t want to go and have a war against Ukraine. More likely Putin would want to gain sway through under the table financial influence with oligarchs. Actually invading, and having Ukrainians and Russians going in and killing each other, and NATO joining, and then China possibly joining as Russia’s ally - that would possibly bring on World War III. You have the three strongest military forces in the world- US, Russia and China, fighting where Russia has a distinct geographical advantage sharing a border with Ukraine, and the ultimate outcome is that the U.S. and NATO lose, hundreds of thousands of deaths later. Putin wanted to join and negotiate with NATO at one point. If he still wants to, I’d say let him, on the condition that he is willing to not run for President after 2024 and to reinstate term limits in the Russian constitution. Aside from the benefit to Putin himself, which I don’t care about, this would lift Russia out of its recession with the end of sanctions and increase positive feelings in Russia towards the West. Also, they will stop their retaliatory embargo on US food imports, which will help the US economy.

Much of eastern Europe is and always will be a basket case. Ukraine included.

When did Republicans become such pussies? The seem to be taking the side of Ukraine belongs to the motherland.

Does America still belong to England?

There are a lot of Russians in Ukraine. It was a point of Stalin’s to put Russians into other parts of the USSR to dig in, keep an eye on things and prevent majorities of other ethnicities from trying to detach from USSR. A large minority of Russians in those “republics” would make a lot of noise and trouble if nationalism were to rise among majority.

So Russians in Russian federation may feel sympathy for Russians in eastern Ukraine and feel justification to “save” the Russian minority in Ukraine.

There are a lot of English people in America but they don’t claim that America is part of England.

Let the past go. Embrace the future.

Countries break up. It’s part of life.

It’s time to move on from 1960.

Republicans went from being war mongers to “no boots on the ground”

Are they being paid off?

How many more attacks on American soil are we supposed to tolerate.?

The republicans do nothing to help the thousands of business that have suffered ransomware attacks.

The republicans probably get a cut of the stolen money. That’s how they finance their campaigns with foreign money thought international super PACs.

As if Putin cares about what Russians think R168, they are not a democracy.

R12 are you speaking of Afghanistan? 20 years is not enough for you?

How long do you want? 40? 60?

How many other countries were supporting America over there? The last 10 they were alone.

Where is John Bolton when you need him.

I don’t get the point of having a huge military if we are not going to defend ourselves and allies. Such a waste.

"Siri, how much laundered money does the Republican party receive from the Russian mafia?"

If Ukraine wants republican American politicians on their side they have to emphasize their Christianity. Deluge self-identified American Christians on social media with videos of old head-scarved ladies inside candle-lit churches with hands clasped, praying and crying. They should wear crosses, but not crucifixes.

“We pray to our savior Jesus Christ for peace for Ukraine, whose people have been devout Christians for over a thousand years. We remained Christian during occupation by soviet communists. Our faith never wavered. Help Ukraine remain solidly Christian. We don’t wish that godlessness reinvades this country by communists pretending to be Christian. Please pray with us.”

Some kind of shit like that. Present Ukraine as Christian & Russia as clever atheists disguised as Christians. Some kind of Mark of the Beast shit.

[quote] I don’t get the point of having a huge military if we are not going to defend ourselves and allies.

That’s not what our military is for. It’s for invading non-nuclear countries & stripping them of their valuable resources.

And lots of military funding goes towards private army mercenaries conducting secret wars in poor countries in central & South America and Africa so we can strip them of resources.

I smell a whiff of Anti-Americanism in this thread.

America is the greatest country that ever existed. For a millions reasons this is true. To the people who don’t know that, they are living in a North Korean-like outpost where the truth doesn’t get it.

But she is under siege. This scenario will see the death of America by a thousand cuts. There has to come a day when the people say no more!

The day must come when deplorables and liberals must stop fighting each other and work together to fight the real enemy.

We have done it before. And we need to do it now. We shouldn’t be attacking our cousins, but we should collectively turn our eyes overseas where the threat is getting closer and closer, and has now arrived on our own soil.

Hard-left = Anti-America

Same with the hard right.

I think that foreign organizations have set up millions of Facebook accounts and have radicalized some fringe radicals to enact their agenda in the US.

Remember all those foreign website were behind the riots? And they were being a lot of other American conflicts. Charlottesville was orchestrated from overseas. I believe Jan 6. was also funded with the help of foreign money. There was at least one wire transfer that was reported.

The FBI needs to pull down the veil and show everyone how neck deep they are in repeating anti-American propaganda.

They don’t even know they are doing it.

People overseas are pulling Americans stings and it’s a form of warfare. What does America do in response?

The FBI is so woke. They will never protect Jews or gays. Ever.

It seems to me that Republican elected officials are working to destroy America intentionally at the behest of their foreign donors.

But I don’t believe rank and file Republican voters know this. They are being used to being down their own country.

And people on the “left” like Jill Stein, Tulsi Gabbard and others are supposed to do the same to “progressive” liberals.

They got their assignments. Turn the American people against each other while we come up the middle.

Deplorables would be furious if they realized that while they were attacking their own relatives, foreign interests were buying up all their farms, loosening environmental regulations to the point of toxic rural wastelands, and using the NRA to dump millions of guns into the hands of brainwashed people.

The deplorables need to wake up. We need them back. American needs them to see the truth. The real enemy is the foreign players who want America to be reduced to smoldering ashes.

We need the Christians and the oath keepers and the q anon people to turn their sights.

Christians need to look overseas to the real evil, the oath keepers need to fight the foreigners that really wish to extinguish liberty, and Qanon to the real human traffickers that fund their third world fiefdoms through human suffering as a business model.

R72 if that’s true, shouldn’t America make some moves to counter that?

Should they just sit back on their keister?

I meant r62

[quote]The FBI is so woke. They will never protect Jews or gays. Ever.

*blinks several times*

I do not believe that word means what you think it means.

[quote] Germany signals it could halt gas pipeline if Russia invades Ukraine

Yeah the “signal it” but they don’t say it.

Sweden is sending tanks and troops to Gotland.

Go Sweden!

Supposedly Sweden sending troops is not a big deal because they often do that.

No. And don’t let their refugees here either. Send them to Canada.

R198 Based.

US won't protect Ukraine with force, nor will US protect Taiwan. Get real, people. Russia is a super-power.

R183 r189 Nice try. But the real enemy of the deplorables, the hard-left and everybody in-between is the domestic 1% fleecing all of us.

Explain why a US military response to ransomware attacks by Russia etc makes any sense. You don’t think the US isn’t doing the same cyber warfare right back at Russia et al.?

R183, America is a melting pot of different people, different cultures. We’re not going to defeat Cyberterrorism by fighting involuntarily conscripted Russian teenagers in Ukraine. Our IT experts can fight that war. Russian people are not just Putin’s little tin soldiers, they’re actually people and a war would actually kill them and Ukrainian people too, and US and NATO people.

Is Turcker Carlson in here? Man that guy hates America. Why doesn’t he move to Easter Europe already?

Tuck can’t stand the sight of black people which is why he fetishizes the Easter bloc.

R8, how about sending Don Jr for that?

Don’t click on any of those shady YouTube links.

You’ve been warned.

WTF Germany!

Germany Blocks NATO Ally From Transferring Weapons to Ukraine

Refusal to permit Estonia to transfer artillery that originated in Germany points to strains in Western alliance over Ukraine

[quote]US won't protect Ukraine with force, nor will US protect Taiwan. Get real, people. Russia is a super-power.

Oh dear, sounds like R200 is on the Krokodil again!

Not one servicemember on DL wants war. Armchair generals want war.

R179 proudly served in the Army. Surely. /S

Ukraine isn't an ally, BTW.

Russia has legitimate beefs about hostile foreign influence in Ukraine politics.

R217 = Victor Yanucovich (proud Putin puppet)

The talks have gotten a little calmer in the last day or so and the head of the UN thinks war will be averted.

The political scene today just involves each side reflexively taking the opposite position of the other side. I’m anti-war in most cases, just to save peoples’ lives, not because of Fox News. Pew research shows the political party stance was the opposite in 2015 of what it is now.

Not really R219

Russian bombers and naval ships are set to test missiles off the coast of Ireland. The Journal has learned that the Irish Government has received a warning of a major exercise by the Russian navy and air force in the Atlantic off the South West coast.

It does appear that they have backed down and aren’t going to do much. I hope the whole word comes sound in support of Ukraine.

OP is the QUEEN OF WARMONGERS Hillary Clinton.

That’s not too sharply divided.

Why the hell should we care about what's going on in Europe? That's across the fucking Atlantic Ocean and it's not here in America. This is Europe's problem not ours. We have our own bullshit to deal with here in America. We help then with the first two world wars, it's time fir them to stand on their own two feet and fix their own fucking mess.

I'm sick of Europe's bullshit and white on white crime over there. Fuck them!

^^^ Posting from 1940.

R224 you think they are going to stop after they take Ukraine? This is a test of America. We are next on the list for an attack

I think it’s much better if we neutralize them overseas instead of letting it come here.

They’ve already attacked this country to death. America has been hit by fascists attacks daily for the last 5 years. The damage is done.

When do we say enough is enough? When do we fight back?

R226, fight back with a show of force, not actual force, if at all humanly possible. The last 100 years show how horrible war is. Each country engages its soldiers with training to make it easier for them to kill, and hate festers afterwards. To make it worse, the soldiers themselves don’t even want to be fighting a war. Russia has mandatory conscription for 18 year olds; they don’t want a war. Killing them because you actually want to get at Putin is pointless. The IT war can be fought by IT experts and maybe someone will be able to figure out how to support fair elections in Russia.

But they are starting the war. Not the US. Stop blaming the west from defending itself against constant, daily attacks.

It has to stop.

Russia is the aggressor R227.

R229, Putin is the aggressor. But given that his country is not behind him in wanting to start a war, war is not inevitable. He has not started an invasion yet and apparently the President of Ukraine hopes he won’t at this point. Ukraine doesn’t want to be invaded but also doesn’t want a war.

Why is everyone OK with being kicked around by these people?

We have racists in this country that will run over you with their truck, and cry about how much they hate liberals, but these foreign antagonists actually want to take away our liberties, and not a peep from them about the foreign fascist that are ripping this country apart through social media and these fake groups and have infiltrated the NRA and and are funding America’s demise.

R231, more attention to the manipulation on social media would be great and yes, that’s cyber-terrorism and it has to be stopped. But the idea that fighting a war is somehow a good thing because it could unite the country is flawed. For one thing, wars lead to widespread death and destruction disproportionately amongst poorer people and there’s disruption to world peace for years afterward because when you go to war, you’re killing someone’s children. We need a plan to unite the country that doesn’t involve war. If it becomes inevitable that’s not the same thing but all this talk about it uniting the country is wrong. Biden’s improvements to government infrastructure should unite the country. Not war.

And that’s why I don’t believe we should start a war.

But we didn’t start this. America didn’t start this and I’m sick and tired of the lie that that we deserve these attacks and we should sit by and take it. There won’t be a county left.

I'd love Ukrainian refugees. We should bid for Ukrainian refugees.

It's a shit situation.

I agree with R234.

1984 isn’t just a novel, it’s a playbook. Oceania vs Eastasia?

If Putin gets away with this and successfully occupies more Ukrainian territory, what message will this send to Xi regarding China threatening to annex Taiwan?

I made the argument that Obama letting Putin get away with annexing Crimea and Donbas and exacerbating the Syrian Civil war by supporting Assad, was a huge foreign policy blunder.

The US isn't being attacked, r238.

But Russia will successfully occupy more Ukrainian territory r237 and the US and Nato will not be going into Ukraine with troops to get Russia out. I agree that Obama is to blame for a lot of what's happened in Syria though. Bombing Syrian military targets (which Obama should have done) is not comparable to the US bombing Russian military targets.

Datalounge is very pro-Obama.

I'd take some young ukrainian men. Do they like arroz con pollo?

Pentagon is going live right now. All channels.

Just no Ukrainian refugees, please.

R203 Hey stupido, you know why there aren't Blacks in Eastern Europe. Cause Eastern European countries didn't keep slaves and didn't colonize and exploit African countries. You would know that if you used your head for something else besides just to give it.