Why is abortion so restricted in Europe?

Because the government pays for it.

They value life. A fetus's heart beats 18 days after conception.

[quote]They value life. A fetus's heart beats 18 days after conception.

Not what the bible says.

Bible says it doesn't count as a person until AFTER it's born.

Reconcile that little problem for us.

Medical doctors today know more than The Bible written thousands of years ago

The US actually legalized abortion before many other countries in Europe did. In fact, many Christian groups in groups in The US were ambivalent about abortion but didn't get involved about the topic politically. The anti-abortion sentiment was heavily Catholic led and Americans are mostly Protestant. That seemed to change in the 80s when anti-abortion rhetoric grew stronger and stronger with Evangelicals and the Republicans hopped on board with pandering to that group.

It's a lot less restricted there than it is in some of the red states

What was Margaret Sanger's position on abortion when she opened clinics?

Well, 18 weeks is well into the second trimester. An abortion at 18 weeks is a serious operation, not just a fancy D & C.

That’s what I was going to post, r8. 18 weeks is quite far along.

In Finland you can get an abortion with only one Dr's approval if the pregnancy is in the forest 12 weeks AND you are under 17 or over 40 or had at least 4 previous births. if you don't fall in that category then you need two separate Dr's approvals. Reasons for approval are the potential physical or mental distress if the pregnancy runs to term; or if the pregnancy arises from a serious crime (e.g. rape or incest) or if an illness of either parent would make it difficult to provide a normal upbringing for the child. Any pregnancies past 12 weeks need 2 Dr's signature PLUS permission from the National Supervisory Authority for Welfare and Health. Abortions after 20 weeks are banned except in the case of physical risk to the mother

[quote]The US actually legalized abortion before many other countries in Europe did.

And it's about to become illegal in America

America, home of the stupid

Abortion is technically illegal in Germany with a 3 year prison sentence. A later exception was later added into the criminal code to make exceptions to allow for abortion in the first trimester after mandatory counseling for the pregnant patient.

Because it's considered murder, OP.

[quote]A fetus's heart beats 18 days after conception.

There is no heart at 18 days. Actually, there is no fetus. It's still an embryo until 8 weeks, when it develops into a fetus.

The UK is the leading abortionist of Europe, people from other Countries frequently travel here to terminate pregnancies.

There is no political or public disagreement with this arrangement. It's not an issue.

Murder is legally defined. If killing everyone was murder then wars would be an act of murder, the death penalty would be murder, killing in self-defense would be murder and accidentally killing someone would be murder as well. So killing something is not murder unless it fits within legal definitions. Fetuses are not fully formed humans and do pose a risk to the mother who is carrying one. Technically an abortion would be self-defense. The Bible actually says nothing on abortion because abortion was commonplace in the Ancient world, women have been getting rid of babies forever and many men had no issue with that.

Anatomy ultrasounds are not accurate until 18-20 weeks, especially when it comes to detecting heart defects.

In some cases it seems more humane to terminate the pregnancy than to deliver the baby full term. There are conditions where the baby's skeleton doesn't develop properly, leaving the bones so brittle that the baby is crushed during delivery, even a cesarean. I've heard mothers say they made a choice to take on the pain of heartbreak rather than have their newborn suffer a brutal birth only to die shortly thereafter.

The hardest thing they ever did was undergo a final ultrasound, where a needle full of potassium chloride is guided to the fetal heart, and watch the beating stop.

The prolife groups overlook the fact that later term abortions are mostly done under duress and after the parents have had to make painful decisions.

I would think most European countries would make allowances for terminating due to fetal anomaly. They seem more enlightened when it comes to human euthanasia. I assumed that applied to their thoughts on abortion as well.

R15 Will Brexit affect the ability of Europeans traveling to the UK for abortions?

This has been educational, OP. I didn't realize so many European countries had more restrictions than we do.

I should have added that the legal limit is 24 weeks in the UK now though that can be extended to 28 or 32 weeks in extenuating circumstances.

R18 Brexit won't be a problem as most people go privately (<$1000 for a late one) and it isn't expensive.

There are charities that will fund in case of hardship and for UK residents they are free.

Oh look, a troll thread to launder wingnut lies about abortion. Like the dipshit at R2 who claims an embryo that doesn't have a heart has a heartbeat. In fact, the whole right wing trope about the "fetal heartbeat" that is dutifully repeated without question in the media is all bullshit:

[quote]But what exactly do we mean when we talk about a "fetal heartbeat" at six weeks of pregnancy? Although some people might picture a heart-shaped organ beating inside a fetus, this is not the case. Rather, at six weeks of pregnancy, an ultrasound can detect "a little flutter in the area that will become the future heart of the baby," said Dr. Saima Aftab, medical director of the Fetal Care Center at Nicklaus Children's Hospital in Miami. This flutter happens because the group of cells that will become the future "pacemaker" of the heart gain the capacity to fire electrical signals, she said.

[quote]But the heart is far from fully formed at this stage, and the "beat" isn't audible; if doctors put a stethoscope up to a woman's belly this early on in her pregnancy, they would not hear a heartbeat, Aftab told Live Science. (What's more, it isn't until the eighth week of pregnancy that the baby is called a fetus; prior to that, it's still considered an embryo, according to the Cleveland Clinic.)

R10, what if the pregnancy doesn’t occur in a forest in Finland?

This the same troll that claims abortions emotionally destroy all women? Shoo.

Except in cases of rape, gay people are unlikely to have an accidental pregnancy, so are never going to side with rightwing nutbags.

If we were involved with a pregnancy in a manner where our opinion mattered, it would certainly be planned and terminating it would be a gut wrenching decision.

The vast majority of us would never side with the fundie nutbags on this issue.

Why exactly would anyone think pushing propaganda, let alone false facts, would work in a place like DL.

Don't see a problem with this at all. I'm pro-choice, but 18 weeks is over four months! Make up your mind already.

[quote]Don't see a problem with this at all. I'm pro-choice, but 18 weeks is over four months! Make up your mind already.

Many women are not "regular" so discovering you're pregnant may take time.

You are likely to notice a "bump" sometime between 12-16 weeks, but may not actually even think to take a pregnancy test until later.

If you're going to terminate a pregnancy, you may want a bit of time to make that decision. Many people don't just figure out they're pregnant, then decide to terminate the next day. As noted, for many people, it's a difficult decision and perhaps they'd like to research and consider their options before terminating.

Many defects are not identifiable until later in the pregnancy. You may not figure out you're pregnant until later in the pregnancy, so don't test for defects until later, and again, may want to do research and take a moment to make a momentous and difficult decision.

Duh, Europe restricts abortions because they're white babies.

Just a weird historical note. Abortion was legal in East Germany. Making it a crime again was a major sticking point of unification.

R27, also, plummeting birth rates

You can't evaluate the "restrictions" out of context. As someone upthread pointed out, abortions are easier to get in most of Europe than in much of the US. Because in much of Europe they are free or low cost at point of service, there is a better healthcare structure in place so women are more likely to be getting better care even pre-pregnancy and able to confirm a pregnancy and/or complications sooner, and even where "approval" is required it is liberally granted, etc. In addition they reduce the need for abortions with far more robust sex ed and pregnancy prevention measures, and far more support for parents in the health, working, and social sectors, and so on.

But trolls have to troll and wingnuts have to lie.

Thanks for the info, R26. You've changed my mind.

The last couple of years more pro-life activists have started intimidating women outside of abortion clinics in Europe, just like in the US

There's been some anti-abortion troll hanging out here for awhile. Female to boot. I blocked it but it is obsessed with this subject.

Big Deal. They have staircases in Europe.

[quote]Big Deal. They have staircases in Europe..

..and knitting needles

R32 Not that I've seen any reports of?

Don't forget they'd just get arrested in Europe, no 'First Amendment' bullshit here.

[quote]The UK is the leading abortionist of Europe, people from other Countries frequently travel here to terminate pregnancies. There is no political or public disagreement with this arrangement. It's not an issue.

Sorry to be a pedant but this is untrue.

BRITAIN (i.e. the Isle of Britain, i.e. England, Scotland and Wales is one of the most open and liberal countries when it comes to abortion. Every 5-10 years a politician comes along and objects to the law on religious grounds - almost always Catholics - but the laws don't change.

NORTHERN IRELAND, part of the UK, has major problems with abortion and it's only recently been legalised. So it's incorrect to say the UK has liberal laws, when Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

And IRELAND (not part of Britain or the UK) only legalised abortion after the 2018 referendum - it was legal for a woman to have a penis and testicles in Ireland before a woman could have an abortion. The laws are still very restrictive and services very poor so women still travel to Liverpool, Birmingham, Cardiff, Manchester etc for abortions.

European women are better at keeping their legs close when compared to their slutty American counterparts.

R37 I meant to write Britain not the UK, Northern Ireland has existed in it's own universe for as long as anyone can remember.

I think most anti-abortionists are traditionalist women and super religious men. Most straight men would be happy to have abortion legal honestly. Many do not want kids. Almost every pro-life person I've met were women of all ages ago genuinely consider abortion murder and often have very traditional views on gender roles too.

[quote] I think most anti-abortionists are traditionalist women and super religious men.

You don't have to be super religious to realize that life begins before birth.

R5- New York was the very first state to make abortion legal on demand in 1970.

Viruses are also alive. So are trees that become wood and animals that become meat. Yes a fetus is alive but it's not a fully functional human being. It's a human fetus. It can pose a risk to the woman that carries it. And if the pregnancy was unplanned or a product of rape then technically that fetus could be argued as a trespasser. Abortion is self-defense.

If you're pro-life then also support welfare, higher wages, taxes against the wealthy, affordable housing and better education because forcing poor unwed mothers to give birth and have kids is cruel for both the mother and child.

If you think Europe is bad, just look at the United States. Texas 6 week limit is ridiculous. At six weeks the baby isn't even viable until the 2nd trimester and beyond. And the anti-abortion thing in the U.S. is mildly interesting because several people have interviewed them and asked what the penalty for the woman seeking an abortion should be. It give meaning to deer in the headlights.

The Texas situation is Republicans grasping at straws for relevance. The state is purple and going to turn blue. Pandering to extremists is the only solution the GOP has to keep the vote coming.

18 weeks is over 4 months, dear. That’s not the crisis you seem to think it is.

True r44, even the infamous Texas bounty applies to everyone who assists in the abortion except the actual person trying to get one. What a bunch of liars and hypocrites. If abortion is actually murder as these deeply prolife lovers of the fetus always say, why isn't the actual "murderer" the one they want punished, ever? (Okay, a few have blurted out the truth now and then, but they always go shrieking to hills the second anyone calls them out on it.)

Remember, it's just a useless clump of cells until a trip through the birth canal magically transforms it into a human. That is science.

[quote]better at keeping their legs close. . .

melania, you must be kidding

OP and before 18 months?

Germany one step closer to scrapping Nazi-era abortion law

18 weeks is 4 and half months .

If you ever want to know what an improved economy and the loss of power that's come from the endless scandals of the Catholic Church can do, remember that in the mid 90s, Ireland BARELY voted to legalize divorce. Twenty years later, marriage equality and the legalization of abortion passed overwhelmingly.