Who was THE Conductor of the 20th Century

von Karajan, hands down.

His [italic]Finlandia[/italic] makes me weep, every time.

R1 ooohh. I will have to look that up.

His 1989 recording of Brahms Symphony No 1 in Tokyo is a piece that changed my life. It was his swan song.

What am I, chopped liver?

"George Sznell"

Oh, dear!

Is this payback for chasing Dame Kiri around the piano?

I am a trained conductor (but have switched careers). Abbado was always my favorite, and of course Kleiber for Beethoven. But Lenny and Von K have this in a tie, I think. Really important posts (NY and Berlin), somewhat opposing styles (dynamic agility vs smooth, blended sound), and of course the importance of recordings. The LP (Lenny) and CD (Von K) boom years are a key component when evaluating conductors of the 20th C.

Fun question, OP, thanks for posting!

I probably listen to Abbado more than anyone else, but Karajan is a legend. He was in place with the BPO to record my favorite music at the time (Mahler) and many of his records are my imprint.

But, I can objectively admit that Karajan’s recordings are the best of the best sonically. Fucking unmatched. I still pop a boner listening to the second movement of Also Sprach Zarathustra. Speaking of, Karajan also conducted more R. Strauss, who has become my all time favorite composer in my later years. Plus his Butterfly (Freni, Pavarotti) and Tosca (Price) are my favorites.

Honorable mention to Solti, who isn’t on your list for some reason. There never was a more powerful conductor. His Pictures, Resurrection, Ring (Decca), and Elektra are so thrilling and are my absolute favorite versions. Plus I love his Boheme with Caballe and Domingo more than Karajan’s with Pav and Freni.

The correct answer to this question, given the OP's criteria, is undoubtedly Toscanini. He changed the profession entirely and had the largest influence of any classical musician of the 20th century. 90% of the people on this list were in awe of Toscanini's achievement (Furtwangler being a notable exception). Karajan always cited Toscanini as his musical hero.

Von Karajan and Furtwangler were Nazi's

Seija Ozawa (sic)

What did the Nazi possess?

R10 He is a really good conductor and I wanted to add him. He is definitely in the Top 20 of All Time.

How could leave Lawrence Welk off that list, OP?

It depends on who you ask: Russians would say Mvravinsky, Austrians would say Von Karajan, but also Karl Bohm. Germans might also say Klemperer. French people would say Claude Monteux or Charles Munch. Brits would say Beecham or Barbirolli.

For Americans over 60, it would be Bernstein for certain.

Whilst George Szell belongs on this list,

George Sznell does not.

Different conductors excelled or not in differ areas.

You can't corral one into that one top spot.

Beecham and Barbirolli were fantastic with the Impressionists and the French repertoire.

I actually didn't like some of Karajan's early Beethoven, but his Brahms soars.

I'm very partial to Leinsdorf, especially in operatic repertoire.

And what of the operatic repertoire?

Has anyone ever matched Tulio Serafin at La Scala and his recording of Tosca (the first one) with Callad, DiStefano, and Gobbi?

But R8, wasn't he a critical meanie?

The original question seems to be not who was the best, or people's personal favorite, but who had the biggest impact on the the conducting profession in 20th century and was the most revered by peers. r8 is correct that Toscanini is the obvious candidate on this list.

Georg Solti.

Bernstein is my number one. He’s who I heard as a child, and later, when I got into classical as an adult, he was my introduction to Mahler, my favorite composer.

I also like Abbado’s first Mahler series, especially 3 and 7–not more than Bernstein, but co-equals.

Carlo Maria Giulini

Karajan, followed by Furtwängler for me.

Possibly an unpopular opinion, but I love Karajan's Baroque recordings (except Bach, he didn't understand Bach). It's a pity he made so few of them. I highly recommend his Händel and Corelli's Christmas Concerto - incredibly 3-dimensional and luminous!

Furtwängler killed Brahms. His Brahms 4th is probably the best reading ever of this work. Stupendous, modern, militant!

For opera, I love Giulini (for Mozart), Abbado (Rossini, Verdi) and Kleiber.

I don't understand the Bernstein lovers. IMO he's utterly mediocre.

I forgot to add Mitropoulos to my list. He was greatly influential and both Karajan and Bernstein were his pupils. Then Lenny screwed him over royally.

Bernstein’s tempi are just super slow on so many recordings.

Bernstein's tempi are completely off all the time. Plus, the Berliner Philharmonic often mocked him and refused to do what he asked and they were fellows of pretty good taste.

And it wasn't just the BP.

And some find this first movement too fast. It's my imprint version, so everyone else seems slow. I can't tell you how many times I've started playing a different version—Barbirolli, among others—and turned it off so I could switch to Lenny's first recording.

"This is not Mahler!” Leonard Bernstein said to the Vienna Philharmonic, an orchestra which Mahler himself helmed.

And their eyeroll must have been epic, R27!

But it's true that people like the versions that they heard first and are accustomed to. It's hard to change your taste after that. (For R26)

No Andre Previn?

[quote] No Andre Previn?

We will soon see Previn.

I also found Bernstein overrated.

I liked all of Karajan, Leinsdorf, Szell, Fritz Reiner (whose name should be on this list, his RCA recordings with the Chicago are gorgeous), and Munch better.

And Furtwangler wasn't a Nazi and neither was Karajan. They both kept quiet enough to hold onto their positions in German music during the regime. Neither were in any way sympathisers or adherents. And, Furtwangler hated Karajan's guts.

Their silence may not have been admirable, bit if you sent to look for the true believers, look at someone like Elisabeth Schwarzkopf.

Karajan's first wife was Jewish. They fled to Italy, got quietly divorced, and then he headed back to pursue the only thing in life he cared about: gaining control of the Berlin Philharmonic.

Karajan worked with the Israeli orchestral scene after the war and championed an Israeli singer, as well as the first female member of the Berlin Philharmonic, against the will of the traditionally all male Berlin. Her name was Sabine Haas, I think a wind player, oboe maybe.

A saint not, but neither a Nazi or Israel wouldn't have let him in the door.

Schwarzkopf, however, was a first-class racialist bigot. I knew an American singer who worked with her whilst young and still studying. Schwarzkopf made constant remarks about how Americans were barbarians who couldn't really understand music the way "Europeans" did.

R33, maybe that’s Sabine Meyer, a clarinet player. Now BPO fans have to deal with DL fav and classical music instaho Andreas Ottensamer.

Sabine also participated in the Lucerne festival orchestra frequently when Abbado was alive.

Yeah, the Sabine Meyer scandal was the beginning of the end of Karajan and the BPO. It's surprising to me that he risked so much to defend her - a rather feminist gesture in the light of the current climate (the BPO were bullying her so badly that she was often in tears after rehearsals). Herbie did the right thing but they never forgave him.

R33 Well, to be fair, 97% of Americans really do not understand music.

R36 Neither do 97% of Brits, French, Germans, Italians, or Austrians.

That audience is dying.

Get a load of R35--she knew von Karajan well enough to call him Herbie.

[quote]DL fav and classical music instaho Andreas Ottensamer.

I went to his IG, where I found him making music with resplendent Swiss conductor of the 21st century, Lorenzo Viotto, who will be touring the US this month.

You are so grand, R38 🤣

R38. And don’t forget Lenny. We all knew Lenny.

R25. I don’t have any particular affection for Bernstein, and that particular recording was strange, but it’s ridiculous for the player to deny the difference in sound.

R39, and of course hottie Lorenzo has an even hotter little brother who plays horn. I wouldn’t mind shoving my right hand up his hot little bell to keep him in tune.

(Sorry for the tangential post, OP)

ARTHUR FIEDLER! Case clothed.

karajan is you like nazis

bernstein if you like jews

The world is not just Jews and nazis, cunt R45. There's always one like you to ruin a thread.

Karajan, but Toscanini was the bridge from the 19th century, and Bernstein had enormous energy, but had his finger in too many pies.

I, too, love those Abbado Mahler recordings -- the 7 with Chicago is one of my favorite discs of all time.

r25 has it wrong. Lenny only conducted the Berlin Philharmonic on one occasion - in 1979 with Mahler's 9th symphony, which was rapturously received, including by the players (whose relations with Karajan, by the point, were already fraying). Lenny could be very antagonistic towards orchestras but he was also loved by them. He browbeat the Vienna Philharmonic into playing Mahler his way, overcoming a lot of hostility (and not so veiled antisemitism in the process). But the Vienna Philharmonic also had a decades long love affair with Lenny dating from the 60s when he conducted Verdi's Falstaff with them at the State Opera from memory.

When he was younger, Bernstein's tempi were fairly traditional. It's only when he got older - esp in the last decade of his life - when he started pushing things to (sometimes ridiculous) extremes, as shown in the Enigma Variations clip. Still, while the orchestra may have hated it, one needs to judge the results for oneself. For me, those expansive, exaggerated tempi could be revelatory (as in his Tristan recording), and sometimes it could just be self-indulgent (as in some of his Tchaikovsky). But one thing is for sure - Bernstein had a distinctive musical personality which comes through in all of his performances. As opposed to most conductors these days who have literally nothing to say about the music, no ideas, no interpretation, etc. leading to bland, faceless performances which the idiots of the classical music world claim as "letting the music speak for itself" or "honoring the composer's true intentions". In fact, men like Bernstein honored the music far more than the anonymous maestros of today.

R48 I love Abbado conducting Mahler's First and Fifth in Chicago. (Those are my favorite symphonies)

poor gorge smell, they can't even get his name right

Get a load of R38 - who forgets that the public calls everyone from female tennis stars to skating figures that they don't know, either, by their first names.

ALL old conductors drag out tempi. Bernstein was not special in that way. He was just an overindulgent old queen.

Riccardo Muti should be in any conversation about great 20th century conductors. Music director of great orchestras and opera companies simultaneously, and still working today. He’s controversial and to be honest - I have known him- a shithead as a person, but a real talent with a stellar career.

muti is cold, a cold fish

Pierre Boulez--many classic recordings, such as Rite of Spring and a number of Debussy pieces. He was credited with improving the NY Philharmonic from its Bernstein days. Bernstein was a popularizer and boosted modern composers, but the Philharmonic donors were not known for otherwise being very adventurous. Boulez left because he clearly didn't mesh. He did his best work as a guest conductor, often with Cleveland. Szell was a mentor to him.

Leopold!!

R56, his work with the Cleveland Orchestra was some of that group's best

stokowski was a great director, and arranger.

[quote]stokowski was a great director, and arranger

Are you seriously serious??! He was a joke.

R50, yes, and that live Berlin Mahler 1 that inaugurated Abbado's tenure with them is unbelievably electric. There's a documentary about it, and it was that documentary that made me want to be a conductor (which I was for many years). Abbado's a special guy for me.

I only saw him once, in Orange County (south of LA), oddly enough, when they were doing that tour post-9/11. It was Meistersinger, Tannhauser, and Eroica. Just unreal. I had never, ever heard an orchestra sound like that. The Eroica was so perfectly balanced, it was like I was hearing period instruments or something.

My brother was living in NYC at that time, and he said that Mahler 7 had been announced, but it was replaced with the program I describe above because Abbado thought the Mahler would be too much in the wake of 9/11. Really interesting. A very sensitive conductor.

Boulez absolutely belongs in the top 5. Incredibly detailed.

Both he and Bernstein should have stuck to composition, but they needed the money, honey

Mahler has to be the most overrated composer ever. I can't imagine using his work as a criterion for greatness.

Karajan, why even ask.

Philippe Jordan is supposed to have a huge baton.

Wow, as a classical musician I’m so glad I don’t know any of your stupid cunts

R66 Who would you pick then?

R57 didn't include a link to Leopold.

How would you rate Gustavo Dudamel and Yannick Nézet-Séguin?

pretty good, but they wouldn't be where they are today without the older dudes

Nor would any of us.

Another vote for Mr Stokowski!

Another vote for Fritz Reiner. When I was driving a cab in Chicago during the recession, I would print out the WFMT programming guide and have it handy as a reference. I didn’t know much about classical at the time, but would turn the radio to it when picking up at the airport. I’d check the program guide and point out that we were listening to…an RCA recording of Fritz Reiner conducting the CSO. The fares were usually gobsmacked that the cab driver knew this, especially since I was dressed like a schlub and was affecting a very thick “Da Bears” accent. Wouldn’t you know one day I picked up a British couple who were in town to see the CSO. How is it you know so much about music he asked. I told him my dad used to be a janitor at Symphony Hall and as a kid I would go to rehearsals and listen. It was all BS, but it made the daily grind more fun and made for good tips. I ended up a classical music fan in the process.

R60, ugh I love that live BPO Mahler 1 so much. Even with the early horn intro in the during the repeats at the start of the second movement.

R53 likes skating on the Nile.

Bruno Walter for Mahler.

Just listened to his recording on Mahler's First with the New York Philharmonic. WOW. JUST WOW. For a long time I thought Claudio Abbado's Chicago recording couldn't matched, but this is damn close.

Lawrence Welk.

Attached is Walter's recording of the Mahler Symphony No. 1

The live Abbado/Berlin from 1989 (or 1990?) is my favorite. But Walter, of course, is sensational. Great pick!

Abbado / Mahler 7 / Chicago

R80 I have heard Abbado is the best Mahler 7th conductor, but why?

I would like to mention Sir Charles MacKerras and his work on Janaček. The posters up thread are much better qualified than I, so I won't embarrass myself further. I just always loved how much emotion he could release from Janaček's writing.

I don't know how to answer that, r81. I am not educated musically. I simply know what I like, what appeals to me emotionally. I do know I prefer the sound quality of the earlier cycle (Chicago, Vienna) more than that of Abbado's second, Berlin, cycle, however.

Here is his M3, with the Lucerne Festival Orchestra. Please listen and enjoy. That will tell you whether you like Abbado's Mahler. You may or you may not.

r4, that is funny. he, like most of them, was a famous prick

I'm kind of partial to Floyd and Charlie from the Hooterville Cannonball.

What about ME?

Toscanini invented the sound of the modern orchestra, so it’s him.

Oh, von Karajan or Toscanini, probably are probably the two best. My personal favorite is Seiji Ozawa because he is an acquaintance of mine and a sweet, funny, lovely man.

Interesting thread. Thank you!

I have a question though. Without familiarity with the recordings of a particular piece, could you tell who the conductor is?

Krzysztof Penderecki captured a century's horror.

[Quote] Von Karajan and Furtwangler were Nazis

I thought von Karajan joined the Nazi party and performed for Nazis mainly to further his career. There’s no proof Furtwangler was a Nazi at all but the Americans focused on him and blacklisted him, killing his career.

As an opera fan, I LOVE van Karajan.

His conducting with Leontyne Price’s singing is perfection.

His Aida (not with Price, but with a much more lyrical cast) has the greatest orchestral playing of that opera ever recorded. Too bad the singers are barely up to the task—at least von Karajan tried experimenting

Can’t stand that egomaniac

If you want to make some comparisons may I commend ‘The Art of conducting-Great Conductors of the Past’ and ‘The Art of Conducting-Legendary Conductors of a Golden Era’. Both on DVD and YouTube. Everyone has their own preferred style of conducting and these BBC tv series show the differences often using the same piece of music. While Furtwangler is praised by professional orchestral players I enjoy the power of great American orchestras delivered by Toscanini, Reiner, Szell and Koussevitsky. It’s a shame the series wasn’t extended to show, say, the difference between mid and late 20th century conductors the latter to include Rattle, for example.

[quote] Can’t stand that egomaniac

You mean Leontyne Price? She was a piece of work.

"No, honey: I'm Beverly Sills!"

[Quote] muti is cold, a cold fish

I do like that he was absolutely committed to playing what the composers wrote—no adding extra notes or holding notes for longer

For opera, I’m adding James Levine to the list. His conducting was always electric

Too bad this list will be meaningless in a generation.

I don’t see symphony orchestras lasting much longer. The audience is getting exceedingly small

R98 I disagree. Klaus Makela is pretty remarkable. He is 26 and the director of the Oslo Philharmonic. Attached is his interpretation of Mahler's First.

Attached is his Beethoven's Ninth. Just beautiful

[Quote] disagree. Klaus Makela is pretty remarkable. He is 26 and the director of the Oslo Philharmonic. Attached is his interpretation of Mahler's First.

And all the 80 year olds in the audience just love him!

[Quote] He is 26 and the director of the Oslo Philharmonic

That means they’re are not a lot of people training to be conductors

R102 no, but he is a great conductor!

Cunts of cunducting

For me (former conductor here), Abbado seemed to always be the perfect blend of the emotional and the intellectual. So that means an incredible sense of structure, knowing how to judge -- and build -- the architectural tensions in a piece (especially large pieces, like Mahler symphonies) but never at the expense of the dramatic, the emotional.

It's like acting, or playwrighting--or directing! The audience doesn't feel emotions because the actor is up there crying. The audience feels emotions when the events of the piece are (1) interesting and exciting and full of potential, and (2) set up properly and (3) executed and paid off properly.

So with Bernstein, every once and a while, you can feel he's blown his wad in the wrong place, or maybe a bit early, or a bit late, so forth. This rarely happens with Abbado.

However, Bernstein's extraordinary feel for the dramatic is in itself thrilling, and that gets you a long way toward enjoying a performance for sure! Abbado has this much less so, and sometimes can feel a bit cold.

R105 good points. One of my favorite Bernstein albums is him conducting Beethoven works. I hope you enjoy!

Charles DuTwat

He’s a famous cunt to the musicians

I vote for Toscanini. He played everything so fast you could beat the traffic and get home earlier.

Sergiu Celebedache, no question.

[quote] I still pop a boner listening to the second movement of Also Sprach Zarathustra.

I usually finish before the fanfare is over.

Doc Scheverenschon!

Silver is the number one conductor of electricity.

Leonard Slatkin, bitches.

Karl Richter makes my nipples hard.

Alan Gilbert is another great conductor of today!

Let’s not forget Pierre Boulez, whose Ravel is pretty much unparalleled— and his Mahler Six is my absolute favorite.

Boulez was GREAT - but likely should have stuck with composition, but conducting is a better paying gig

Bernstein is the only one who will be remembered at all.

I dont know. Stokowsi brought it to the masses with Disney and Fantasia. I know classical was a lot more prominent then, but there were a lot of people whose first impression was Fantasia. By the 1950s, Fantasia was endorsed by educators for its popularization of classical music.

Stokowski is barely remembered today, let alone in future. But there's a new movie coming out about Bernstein, and there was his score to a recent movie of West Side Story, not even a year old. Bernstein will be the only one out of all of these.

I'll remember Abbado. Thanks, Claudio.

My friend pissy

ME, but I thought you said THE CumCatcher

My clitoris

Neville marriner should be remembers simply because of his name

Any Zubin Mehta fans? I like the power be brought to many pieces

I worked under him once, sort of cold and distant

[quote]Boulez was GREAT - but likely should have stuck with composition, but conducting is a better paying gig

I can never get through even the first few minutes of a Boulez composition. I love Bartok, Schoenberg, Berg, and other 20th century composers, but with Boulez I can never find my way in.

I feel like fucking shit today

Is it the Boulez that makes you feel that way?

Lawrence Welk

Von Karajan joined the Nazi party on two occasions. His SECOND wife had one Jewish grandparent, and they divorced in 1958, long after WWII.

Von Karajan was worse than Hitler!

Don’t talk to me about Carl Orff!

Karajan dictator bump.

Karajan's and the Berliner Philharmoniker - Bruckner's 9th Symphony

Karajan and the Berliner Philharmoniker - Bruckner's 9th Symphony

No mention of Serge Koussevitzky? Not that he was the greatest but he seems to be overlooked here. And another BSO conductor, Erich Leinsdorf.

I used to listen to a classical music station that played live or taped broadcasts 5 nights a week, from various orchestras around the US, and I liked the Cleveland Orchestra concerts under Christoph von Dohnányi and the Pittsburgh Symphony under Mariss Jansons the most.