*Official* Being the Ricardos thread *PART TWO*

Link to previous thread:

Such curious defenses of the writing and directing in the first thread.

Repeated criticisms: The writing is poor. The direction is clinical and sterile.

Repeated defenses: Aaron Sorkin wrote and directed it. Poor writing and poor direction are his trademarks, so you can't criticize based on those.

I suspect Aaron found DL, r2

I still can't get over this quote from Aaron:

[quote]The only thing better than a story people don't know is a story that people think they know but they're wrong. The producer Todd Black spent over a year having meetings with me to tell me stories about Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz that I'd never heard. For instance, that Lucy was accused of being a Communist.

What, exactly, did we learn in Being the Ricardos that anyone with passing familiarity with ILL didn't already know? That Lucille Ball was the first person to use "gaslight" as a verb ... in 1952?

And how embarrassing he didn't know she was accused of being a communist. That's a huge part of the Lucille Ball 1950s story.

I hope this sequel thread does not turn out like a "Lucy" sequel (especially "Life With Lucy").

R4, the Communist story is even on Lucy's Wiki page. It's something that's easily discovered for anyone who decides to do the minimal amount of research on her. The fact that it took meetings with other people for him to discover this makes Sorkin look incredibly lazy.

Sorkin's lack of knowledge about Lucy clearly explains why his movie stinks. I would guess that he has, or at east had, very little knowledge about the early days of television history.

Come to think of it, I remember seeing his Broadway play THE FARNSWORTH INVENTION about the invention of television and hating it for all its inaccuracies.

I watched this show this week. It was stupid and a waste of time.

I found this movie quite enjoyable, flaws and all.

The acting by the four leads was superb.

A person could superbly read aloud a telephone book, but it still wouldn’t make it interesting or worthwhile.

"Better red than dead, Vance!"

Are we running out of Lucy lore? How many replies will this thread get?

I think we've run the course here. Surely all the real I Love Lucy fans have seen the film by now and commented? I'm really not interested in the casual viewer's opinion.

Emmy-winning writer Ken Levine says it best..."how do you cast someone who can't move her face to play Lucille Ball, who thrived on her many comic expressions? "

How do you cast someone who can't move her face to play Mame?

R15, now, now. Angela's face wasn't THAT swollen.

Finding Lucy

I just started watching "Lucy" a TV movie from 2003 starring Rachel York and so far it seems pretty good.

It's available at no extra charge on Amazon Prime.

One of my biggest pet-peeves is Hollywood’s refusal to cast younger actors for flashbacks. Lucy and Desi were in their twenties when they met. Also Lucy’s voice was not as raspy back then.

I don’t understand overlaying drama with the comedy skit recreations. Maybe Sorkin was trying to show ‘laughter through pain’ but it was too heavy handed.

Not a fan of the documentary style interviews. Seemed like he didn’t have a strong written narrative so he had the people do it for him.

Overall, I’m not sure why this was made. I didn’t learn anything new and they didn’t even explore what it’s like Being the Ricardos that deeply.

Desi was still good looking during the run of the show. It was a mistake to cast someone like Javier.

I hope this movie gets 0 nominations.

Can we get back to talking about gaslighting?

Why couldn't Desi play Desi?

She knew her angles...

1971

Lucille was not humorless or ill humored. I think the only reasons she's remembered that way are that she had a dry, sophisticated sense of humor unlike Lucy's (which I think belied her performance of Lucy and made us aware Lucy wasn't really a mentally limited Amelia Bedelia type), and because she was self-deprecating and no nonsense.

She reminds me a lot of my maternal grandmother. She presented herself humbly and in a well-mannered way, but she was a smart cookie who spoke directly and had a sly wit that escaped a lot of people who have sillier and more obvious senses of humor.

The headline of this video is that Lucille "angrily responds," but it's obvious that her anger is performed and is a type of coy humor, which is a bit of an odd pairing with her otherwise direct manner of conversing. I think Desi got her sense of humor and probably thought she was charming in a way he understood and many others did not. I think Viv got it, too, based on videos I have watched of Viv and Lucille being interviewed together. Viv didn't cower or acquiesce to Lucille. She held her own and they batted little humorous barbs at one another with real affection. I think Sorkin overlooked this affectionate manner of relating to one another and instead sees Lucille as the alpha in a relationship that was probably a lot more complex and affectionate.

And if Lucille had been as self-serious and egotistical as people think she was, she never would have sat through a roast even as the center of attention. Humorless egomaniacs like Donald Trump, and I'd bet even Bill Maher, can't laugh at themselves or sit in a room while people laugh at jokes about them without building anger and resentment.

Gary talked him out of it, r23.

John Davidson was a horrible interviewer. Ball handled it as well as could be expected.

Because he wasn't tall enough, R23!

Joe Manganiello got all the roles that Lucy turned down.

Desi & Lucie

Lucille could dance.

[quote] Lucille could dance.

Too bad she didn’t in Mame.

Indeed R33.

Why would Desi speak that way about his wife?

R35, she was so charming and light in that number. I can always remember that number because Lucy Ricardo is there but she starts performing outside herself. That's real talent.

She could also do a mean jitterbug.

Ahem, R27.

I just got my daily NYTimes subscriber email.

The opening subject: "The Weekender: Nicole Kidman on playing Lucille Ball ..."

"Here's Why I Love Lucy"

For those interested, here's an article from 1954 which mentions the "mock contract" that Lucy gave Viv at a Christmas party that stipulated she had to be frumpy (although nothing about the alleged "20 lbs overweight" lore). Written from Viv's point of view, it casts Lucille and the working relationship of the two in a very positive light. (Begins on page 29.)

Fascinating.

r41 makes me wonder if the "Lucille and Viv are lesbian lovers" rumors were actually circulating in the 1950s. I know Viv herself talked about them in the 1970s, but was she rewriting history? Or did they have real traction at the time?

Viv jokes in the Lucille roast above that "at Desilu Productions, she had a sign behind her desk that said 'the buck stops here.' I didn't realize at the time that she meant it literally."

I have no idea if this is true, but according to Celebrity Net Worth:

[quote] Vivian Vance (Ethel Mertz) only earned $280 per week in the first season of the show. Her salary grew each season, and by Season 6, she was making $7,500 per week. For The Lucy Show, Vance made $8,000 per week plus bonuses.

That would be $2,993 per week for the first season and $74,185 per week by season six in today's dollars. It's not Friends cast money, but it ain't shabby.

R41 Really interesting content in that short letter from Vivian. She says Lucille gave her a photo album that included "pictures of my childhood playmates, male and female, pictures of my pets, male and female." Curious unnecessary detail that makes me think of the Book of Genesis when "God created man, male and female, he created them."

She also writes that Lucille included a photo of Vivian's psychiatrist in the photo album. She really was forward about her mental health, huh? I wish she were around today. I bet she would be extremely outspoken.

[Incidentally and tangentially, God was said later to have created Eve, woman, after the female man was created...but I digress!]

r45 in 1955, Viv published a piece in McCall's about her nervous breakdown and experience with psychiatry.

It's interesting to me that she calls her husband Phil her "salvation." According to Lucille years later, he was responsible for most of Viv's mental health issues. I think that during her breakdown she became incredibly dependent on him, and this dependence followed her to the ILL years, which made her easier to control.

If you don’t think that Lucille was crabby and unpleasant, then you haven’t seen her play Password Plus.

But that was many years after the goings-on in Being the Ricardos, r47.

Hell, Sorkin makes Lucy out as a bitch even in her RKO starlet days flashbacks.

r48 the film contained virtually no character development

Just saw the film last night. A bit late to the game. This may have been discussed on the previous thread, but wasn't there a ton of CGI to make them look younger? I swear in the nightclub scenes it is Javier's face CGI-ed onto a younger actor's body. There is a long list of Visual Effects credits.

I guess I am the odd person out, but I rather liked the script in general, but I would have loved to see it in another person's hands. The casting of the four leads was way off. Projecting here, but it seems as if the roles of Vivian Vance and William Frawley were rewritten to suit JK Simmons and Nina Arianda. I loved both performances, but at no point did I feel they were Vivian Vance and William Frawley.

I want to watch it again now, r50.

Lol r47

I watched that home movies documentary with Lucie Arnaz. She came off as an A-1 nepotistic cunt and practically made it unbearable to watch. There was something really disdainful she did with her mouth, kind of grinding her teeth and extending her jaw, just awful. But if they ever do a limited series about her the perfect person to play her is a Cobie Smulders.

r53 is needlessly cunty, even by DL standards

On the Twilight Zone marathon:

Bride-to-be Anne Henderson (Diana Hyland) is terrorized by a woman on horseback, but she knows not why. Mr. Henderson: Philip Ober. Mrs. Henderson: Marsha Hunt. David: Roger Davis. Robert:...

That is truly astounding!

Lucie at the beginning of the pandemic...

r45 also, I think, for whatever reason, Viv had great anxiety about being perceived as a lesbian. I think that's why, in part, she resented how Ethel was portrayed on the show.

R59 Maybe it was from drunkenly letting Ethel Merman munch on her box while she was Ethel's understudy.

Slander, r60!

R60, The Merm never munched on my box and God knows I tried.

It would be nice to have a biopic made by someone who was deeply, even obsessively familiar with the subject.

R25 Lucie's face listening to her mother's story, gee.

R42 That podcast is really enjoyable, I've listened to several episodes. People seemed so much more mature and articulate back then. Nice, low, well-modulated voices.

r63 look no further than DL!

Although she was styled better in later seasons, I think Viv knew she was no great beauty, especially compared to Lucille.

Vivian couldn’t be good looking since she was fat.

Vivian was fine...

She wasn't fat, r68

Time is cruel, Barbara @r70 ...

In seasons 1 & 2, they were more or less the same weight

In the end, what annoyed me most about the film was that you have a film that is about a demanding, precise, perfectionist and the film is so sloppy and lazy. It needed a "Lucy" to direct it.

I don't know about Ethel Merman, but Viv did sleep with Yip Harburg to get her big break in Hooray for What! (replacing Kay Thompson).

R74, Did she make Yip yip?

Was Viv the inspiration for Eloise, I could see that?

R76, no Liza Minnelli, seriously.

r75 honey, I was so good I elicited sounds from Yip he didn't know he was capable of

Bless your heart, r77.

R79, [quote]The character was developed by the author based on her childhood imaginary friend and alter ego, with a voice in which Thompson spoke throughout her life, according to her biographer, filmmaker Sam Irvin.[1] Thompson's goddaughter, Liza Minnelli, was often speculated as a possible model for Eloise.[2]

The illustrator stated that the image for Eloise was based on one that his mother, Katherine Sturges Dodge, had painted, during the 1930s.[3]

R80, Wasn't Humphrey Bogart once rumored to have been the model for the original Gerber baby?

Wasn't Celesta Geyer the inspiration for Ethel Mertz?

In actuality, R81, Bogart was the Mellin's Baby Food baby.

R83, that was the final question on the game show episode of Maude. "Name that baby", Vivian: "that's not a baby food baby. That's Humphrey Bogart".

“Let’s Talk to Carole”

Lucille Ball - 'America Alive!' 1978 [Interview] FULL Episode

R85 Love that lady. In 2018, when asked about Trump, she said "Where's John Wilkes Booth when you need him?" And the interviewer asked if she was suggesting Trump be shot, and she said "Why not?" Sharp as hell at 95 years old.

Kidman just won the Golden Globe for this role, beating out favorite Kristen Stewart.

I guess she's Oscar bound now.

Awful

LOL @ the GGs.

I'm sorry. I love Nicole Kidman. She's one of my all-time favorite actresses. This movie is not award worthy and neither was her performance, no matter how biased I am toward her.

LMAO, talk about a dubious honor. Nicole should be embarrassed.

You know, I still wonder about Viv's last marriage. She knew he was gay, but did she expect monogamy from him? Was it a platonic marriage? Did she decide she was done with sex by that point in her life? She never spoke about these things, and obviously he didn't either, although he was rumored to have a long-term partner during their marriage.

Where's THAT story, Mr., Sorkin?!

I think he was faithful to her according to the writer of the book of her that I read. He was very devoted to her to the end of her life.That would make a great love story on film to see her find happiness at last only to die tragically from cancer. My title of the movie would be entitled, "Call me Vivian".

Starring Kaley Cuoco per another poster's suggestion.

I'd watch it, r94! And I totally see Cuoco as a young Vivian.

I wonder if Nicole will win the Oscar

Poor Viv was never really pretty. She wasn't ugly or even odd looking but even in youth she wasn't pretty. She'd have been okay for the stage but I don't think she would have ever made it as a movie star, close ups and all.

I don't think Viv had any illusions about herself or her appearance (which is probably in part why she preferred the stage). I do speculate that on some level she resented that a TV sitcom brought her fame, rather than a stage play: she liked to see herself as a serious actress. But after her nervous breakdown, she went into semi-retirement and abandoned her dreams of being a leading lady on Broadway.

r94 although it's not really movie material -- more a play in one act -- I'll always wonder what Lucille and Viv talked about during their final goodbye.

I suggest Kaley Cuoco to play Vivian Vance, and I want credit when you produce and star in that awesome HBO Max series, Kaley!

Please, please, PLEASE do NOT let Aaron direct the Vivian biopic!

Gary Ross should direct Viv's biopic in a style similar to the Hunger Games.

I'd like to see it directed by Bruce Beresford

r95 is actually a great improvement, Viv looked rather nondescript in high school

I would like to see David Lynch's take on the I Love Lucy story

R105 I would rather see Jennifer Lynch’s take called Boxing Lucy.

Lars Von Trier should make a tragic movie about Lucy the nympho commie.

Enough films about Lucy!

Note to the director of the Vivian biopic ...

Vivian really wanted to be a mother and considered it a great misfortune that she never had kids. (I think she miscarried in the 1940s.)

In addition to always being just outside the limelight, I wonder if she also resented the fact that Lucille's pregnancy and motherhood were foregrounded on the show and in the media. That must have been hard for her.

How’s about a movie about the fraught week that Vivian, jealous of Lucy having her own child AND Little Ricky, kidnaps Little Ricky and goes on the run in Southern California, returning only just in time to film Friday episode, while Lucy and Ricky resist calling the FBI and send Fred after them with the allowance that he can shoot to kill Viv if it means returning Little Ricky safely?

... directed by Ridley Scott

Even better Michael Bey.

Lol r112.

Amazon Studios, are you listening?

Hooray for Nicole on her SAG nomination!

Why don't we make the William Frawley story? Lots of drinking, gambling.. lots of Showgirls and Patricia Barry as his quasi love interest. He left his fortune to her you know.

☺☺☺☺

Maybe Viv couldn't have children because she caught gonorrhea during her whoring days.

[quote]Why don't we make the William Frawley story? Lots of drinking, gambling.. lots of Showgirls and Patricia Barry as his quasi love interest.

I think Frawley was more interested in the ShowMEN.

Was Frawley really gay, or is that DL lore?

Amazon is coming out with some other Lucy Desi thing in March.

Lucie looks like Susan Pratt here.

r120 is Lucie behind that too?

One of the authors of the Vivian Vance/Bill Frawley biography was not impressed

I kind of wonder if Lucille and Phil Ober had some kind of falling out very early, since he appeared in one of the series' first episodes and then wasn't asked back for many years - and even then, begrudgingly. They must have hated each other from the beginning: I definitely think Lucille's animosity toward him predated her friendship with Viv. And he was not happy that they had become friends, either.

These are the things I want addressed in the phantom Viv biopic!!

R123 That frau's criticisms are superficial.

Hi Aaron r125!

I agree that r123's quibbles were mild

[quote] While the character of William Frawley, as played by J.K. Simmons, starts out as an apt representation of this anti-social, out-of-touch, ill-spirited drinker; as the movie goes along, Frawley is shown to have a humanist streak. His conversations with Ball seem almost warm. Baloney!

That can only be called a minor quibble because he is a minor character in the movie. Otherwise, it's a major rewrite of a famously mean man'a character into a nice old grandpa type.

Imagine if in 89 years someone did a biopic of Bill Maher and depicted Ann Coulter as having a heart of gold.

The irony is, Sorkin wanted his script to appear progressive (hence the stuff about infantilizing Lucy).

But then he turned around and made racist, misogynistic Bill Frawley into a kind grandfather, while portraying Vivian Vance as petty and self-absorbed.

On the subject of a Vivian Vance biopic: one thing that stands in its way is that Viv (unlike Lucille and Desi) didn't have kids who could push for/oversee such a project. Her youngest sister, who spent many years keeping her legacy alive, died around 2016 -- the last of her siblings, I believe. She also had a niece who died many years ago. And her last husband died in the mid-1980s.

With that said, I would really like to see this biopic, and see it done well.

Vivian Vance was in the original Broadway production of Carousel, but Agnes DeMille had her fired during rehearsals, which is interesting because the character she played didn’t dance.

I wonder if that contributed to her nervous breakdown r131

Lucille Ball talks about how much of the real-life Lucy is in Lucy Ricardo.

I love how both Lucille Ball and Lucy Ricardo say "wundaful."

I think Viv always had some type of coping issue. She was married four times.

But she was brilliant on I Love Lucy and deserves the credit for helping to make that show a success. And I think the way she is portrayed in Being The Ricardos is a travesty.

How is she portrayed? I read they focus on her worrying about her appearance a lot. Anything else?

I wish Lucy would have sung Being Alive at the end.

The movie would have been better if it had ended with a lesson from William Frawley to the audience about the importance of treating people kindly, and especially the ladies because they are fragile, especially about their figures.

Lucille being modest.

[quote] How is she portrayed?

Bitchy and humorless.

[quote]How is she portrayed?

[quote]Bitchy and humorless.

Accurately.

This article details Vivian's Broadway career.

Nobody is all good or all bad, so I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to imagine that William Frawley had a kind moment or two, especially toward his boss of many years.

Lucille has such high hopes for this one.

[quote]Nobody is all good or all bad, so I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to imagine that William Frawley had a kind moment or two, especially toward his boss of many years.

I agree whole your whole statement. However, its much of a stretch that Frawley would have been presumptive enough to ask Ball out for a drink in the morning during working hours to dispense fatherly advice.

I think Being the Ricardos suffered from a lack of good characterization. Of course people are nuanced and not all good or all bad. But the trick for the writer is to show their strengths and weaknesses with a light touch. I felt Sorkin was hitting me over the head with "Bill Frawley was a good guy underneath!!" and "Vivian Vance was insecure and unhappy!!" He did a little better with Desi and Lucille, but Carroll, Pugh, and Oppenheimer all suffered from the same ineffective heavy-handedness.

A related problem was the flashbacks and "interview" framing. That took away screen time that he could have spent on characterization.

People tend to reveal truths about themselves in little moments and often, they unveil contradictory things.

One of the best examples I can think of is the film Wendy and Lucy. The main character makes the acquaintance of a good-natured security guard at a local drugstore. They occasionally talk. We like him, cautiously. He seems kind. When they say goodbye, he gives her some money to help her on her journey. She looks down and finds it's only $5. A pittance. A great moment, though, that leaves his character in a much different light.

I'm not very familiar with Sorkin's oeuvre, but I would guess characterization isn't his strong suit.

Maybe Jane Campion could direct the phantom Vivian Vance biopic! She did a great job with Janet Frame/mental illness in Angel at my Table:

I generally don't like Spielberg's direction but I loved Weat Side Story.

If the Viv biopic could be a musical, I nominate Spielberg to give Viv the spectacle her long-quiet legacy deserves!

I'd love to hear her croon a few ballads, r148. Viv worked as a nightclub singer in the 1930s. Her second husband was a jazz musician.

I wanted to dismiss the notion Nicole will be nominated for, and possibly win, an Oscar. Then I remember Renee Zellweger won for that piece of shit Judy Garland biopic.

Also, iirc, the clip at r148 was the first time she'd really sung in a performance since before her nervous breakdown. She'd lost her singing voice and was nervous about performing again.

I wonder where Viv's career would have taken her if she'd never married Phil Ober. I think the marriage contributed to her deteriorating mental health in the 1940s.

R135 Really? A travesty? They don't do much with her, really. I think you're being *slightly* dramatic. lol.

We take DL's patron saint very seriously, r153

I think Viv’s life story needs one of the edgy Mexican directors to take it on, they can interject some surreal elements into it that will illuminate her soul in a new way.

I like that r155! It would also pay homage to her love for New Mexico

I like that. Viv is 15, and has been slipped peyote by one of the Indians who lives on a Reservation on the outskirts of town. As she walks through the blazing hot New Mexican southwest desert, we hear a dissonant sounding guitar version of Shortin' Bread, and she spots a giant time piece melting on top of a cactus.

Too bad Buñuel isn't around to direct it r157!

Phipps is a great big bunch of gyps!

No one else but Viv could make us still laugh like 100 years later at the line "I have sufficient."

Lucy was so shady giving her those Hostess pants. She knew Ethel's taste in clothes. She had no use for those. She knew Ethel didn't attend any smart dinner parties. Lucy was such a b****.

I know it's a comedy, but Lucy Ricardo really was a horrible friend and she had a rather grating personality r161

I don't believe she was a horrible friend. Vivian Vance always said Lucille was one of her closest friends and the two of them worked together for most of their lifetimes. I take Viv at her word. They act like lifelong friends or a married couple together. If Viv were insecure and just depended on Lucille for employment, and if Lucille were as much of an insecure narcissist as people here would have you think, Viv would not have teased her in the ways she did. Trump is a real narcissist, and all sycophants including his own children who suckle at his ancient saggy hairy teats only flatter him. No criticisms allowed.

I meant the character of Lucy Ricardo, r163, not Lucille Ball herself

I think Viv's friendship with Lucille gave her the strength, in part, to end her abusive marriage, which is probably why her husband hated Lucille

Ohh. I never thought Lucy was a horrible friend to Ethel, either. It was clear that Ethel lamented her humdrum life with her stingy old husband and always welcomed excitement of any kind, including the crazed antics Lucy sucked her into. She was a willing participant and she had fun with it.

Growing up, I think I saw the foursome sort of like aquarium inhabitants. They were in two tiny apartments with not much to entertain them. Even Ricky's job was a bit of a slog, just business, the same thing night after night. Lucy was smart but bonkers and she made life more interesting for everyone, although she often took things too far and ended up with someone angry with her. But they all loved her for it. One of those inexplicable things about real human relationships that doesn't always make its way into fiction: in real life, people often welcome craziness and crazy people into their lives and love them for being 'characters.'

It seems to me that Lucy was a fine friend. Ethel was low maintenance and rarely had real problems but when she did, Lucy was there for her.

I can't imagine how the writers came up with the setup, but if you imagine the characters as children, all their relationship dynamics make perfect sense. Yes, that is infantilizing the characters and especially Lucy, but it is a situation comedy, after all, and that sort of thing is necessary. By the 1980s, the formula hadn't really changed; it's just that the zany, irrational characters were the dads because it had become offensive to show women mothers as anything less than down to Earth and competent.

I’ve been watching “That Girl” and even in the late 1960s it was the same thing. Ann Marie was really self-centered, sometimes conniving, sometimes manipulative, but at the end of the show everyone chuckles with a “that’s our girl and we love her” attitude.

Just saw it and agree with R146 and others, especially about the lack of any real character development.

The conceit of creating a story around a specific period of time is tough to pull off and there's no real character development. There wasn't a whole lot at stake and the most interesting thing turned out to be learning about how sitcoms were filmed.

The flash-forwards were confusing because clearly all the writers would be dead or in their 100s by now, so when was that supposed to have been filmed. And the flashbacks to Lucy and Desi meeting didn't really add anything other than confusion because it was hard to figure out when those early scenes were set and how much time had passed from then to the time the film was set.

Why would you need character development in this case, we already know who these people are both on screen and off screen? We’re coming for the nuances and secrets.

r168 see the clip at r147. A great biopic of a well-known (to Kiwis, at least) writer. Frame's breakdown and institutionalization were critical parts of her biography, but Campion really added something to our understanding

R168, how do you have "nuances and secrets" without character development? Character development is defined by nuance and revelation.

Few people under 65 "know who these people are both on screen and off screen" R168

If Lucy was truly her pal, she would have let her bask in the Albuquerque sunlight during Ethel's Hometown instead of ruining her operatic rendition of My Hero from The Chocolate Soldier along with the boys. Ethel deserved better than that. Ethel never once sabotaged Lucy but Lucy mocked her speech to Mrs. Turnbull in. Front of their friends. Lucy also made her be the back of the cow and dressed her up like a trip around the world.

The Ethel hometown episode shows how great Vivian Vance was. She knew all that shtick was going on behind her but she doesn’t once let on as an actress that it’s going on behind her.

Unlike Miss Debra Messing who has numerous blooper reels to her credit, constantly breaking character and ruining a take.

Vivian's acting brilliance really shines when she Ethel performs on the show. The song-and-dance numbers of course, and also moments like below, where she is hawking the salad dressing. She's not just playing the part of "Mary Margaret McMertz." She's playing Ethel playing Mary Margaret McMertz. In other words ... she's acting like someone with no acting training would act.

[quote] she's acting like someone with no acting training would act.

She also does that brilliantly in the Lily of the Valley song. She sings a line about being from the village over there, and then points as if she suddenly remembers she’s supposed to do it.

Although this is one flaw in Ethel’s characterization. Her backstory was that she was in vaudeville, so she should know how to perform in a professional capacity.

Not to mention she could never remember her middle name, r175

I think this is Viv's most brilliant moment on the series:

R174 Ethel had acting experience. She and Fred both did Vaudeville for years. It's one reason I always assumed Lucy gravitated toward them. They were a showbiz couple like Ricky and Lucy were.

R177 That had me laughing out loud. I love Vivian!

[quote]Datalonge. Where It's Always 1987

r171 isn't wrong.

Lucy convinced Ethel to scam a charity.

Lucy being a Girlboss

I'm working my way through the series and watched "Ricky's Old Girlfriend" this morning.

Lucy explains a magazine marriage quiz to Ethel, Ricky, and Fred and says, "I'll keep score and at the end we'll add them all up and see if each of us is married to our perfect mate."

Ethel responds, deadpan, "For this I need a quiz?" then looks at Fred contemptuously.

Viv's delivery is perfect. Desi cracks up laughing.

Watching the series has led me to pick up on little things I hadn't noticed before. Here's one:

I know Lucille disliked doing re-shoots and liked the live performance to run as smoothly as possible. But what's interesting is that, more often than not, Vivian's lines in certain scenes were clearly re-shot after the episode had been filmed. Not the entire scene. But just some of her lines. It's obvious because her styling is ever-so-slightly different between shots. (One episode where it's noticeable is Lucy Learns to Drive, in the opening scene, where she and Lucy are discussing Fred's trance-like state. But I've noticed it in many other episodes.)

So did Viv frequently flub her lines during filming? I can't ever remember this topic being raised in any of the Lucy books.

Another interesting tidbit: Viv's first husband -- after they had separated -- was killed in a shootout with his business partner a couple of years later. (The business partner died too.)

I don’t think it’s a flubbed line, I think it is a postdubbedz line Replacing one that was not originally picked up while filming

That makes sense r186

Another aspect that should be included in the Vivian biopic is her rocky relationship with her religious fanatic mother. I don't think they ever reconciled.

At one point, when Viv's parents were having financial difficulties, she sent them money. Her mother sent it back with a note that read something like, "We don't want your sinful money."

Imagine if Lucy would have bittersweetly sung Send in the Clowns at the end? There wouldn’t be a dry eye in the theater and the awards nominations would have been locked in for sure.

Lol 189

But nothing could redeem this crap fest

* r189

Lucille is so...so...studied and careful to hit her marks.

r173 is on YouTube

They just had to steal Ethel Roberta's thunder didn't they?

Classic Ethel.

I think the only way a Viv biopic would work would be to incorporate magical realism.

r155 has the right idea.

Footage from Desilu's employee picnic, 1955

Lucille was stunningly beautiful.

"Being the Ricardos" received no pseudo-nominations from the NYTimes critics

[quote] Footage from Desilu's employee picnic, 1955

Why was everyone wearing coats? Did they have the picnic in Alaska?

R199 They nominated the Tragedy of Macbeth. I feel strongly that it is a visually striking but shitty production of that timeless play.

I've been wanting to see that. Also, Cyrano.

They have a thing for Passing, which isn't getting a ton of love elsewhere. They stuck Kirsten Dunst in the leading actress category when everyone else has had her in supporting (and it is a supporting role, this isn't a category fraud issue.). Also ignored The Lost Daughter as well as Being the Ricardos.

No love for Licorice Pizza--too LA for the mighty Times, I suspect. They do like Drive my Car, which looks to be the foreign film critics have decided is brilliant. Seriously, I'd like to see it sincee most of the films I've seen this year have been disappointing--Power of the Dog being the one exception.

I want to see Drive My Car but I don't think it's at the local theater anymore

R204 Check the local drive-in maybe?

Interesting home movie footage from a 1956 trip to Hawaii.

Lucy, Desi, kids, plus Viv, Phil, and Mary Wickes. (And other people I probably don't recognize.)

Been thinking about the phantom Viv biopic. (As if I have any background in film ... but one of these years I'm gonna finish that novel.)

Anyway, I think a surrealist angle would be awesome, especially to capture Viv's breakdown. (I speculate from what I've read she suffered from depression with psychotic features.)

I also think downplaying I Love Lucy/the connection with Lucille Ball would be good, too. I'd want it to be a great film, with talented people all around, that happens to be about Vivian Vance. Not a film about Vivian Vance. (Which is the trap Being the Ricardos fell into -- well, one of many.) Divorce it as much as possible from Ethel Mertz. Make it a film that people want to see because it's done so well.

Her tale is familiar and very relatable, of feeling like one never really got their due despite immense talent and tenacity. Not to mention her personal disappointments of never having children, three failed marriages, and a relationship with her mother that could not be salvaged. But despite personal and professional setbacks you kind of bumble along amid the disappointment and you do the best you can, which, to my mind, is the real takeaway from Viv's life story.

Those hostess pants were such a joke. Lucy was so cheap that she didn't even get her the full outfit. A little black off the shoulder blouse, a big crushy belt and little ballet slippers. Ethel had bigger feet than John Wayne so where was she going to find little ballet slippers.

Fred had a not-so-secret Asian fetish.

Just watched this. I thought it was fine and some of the performances are very good but I understand a lot of the criticism people have with it.

I'm surprised r199 only gave King Richard one nomination

....😬

Lucy was a Ball of energy.

Vanity Fair predicts both Kidman and Sorkin will be nominated (the latter for his screenplay, not his directing)

I'm so excited for the Oscar nominations.

R215, Yeah, about as excited for the Winter Olympics.

Some on Twitter wrote "Poor Vivian Vance. Screwed over again, 40+ years after her death."

As least Sorkin was snubbed

Just watching this now. When Lucy finished a scene & said they needed “to circle back” to another scene, that line struck me as a more recent construct. Would that have been used in 1950s America?

[quote] Would that have been used in 1950s America?

No. That term came around in the 1990s. Along with, “I’ll take your feedback on board.”

No, R218, Sorkin's dialogue is abysmal.

My dad just saw it and he liked it. I told him Nicole was nominated for a Best Actress Oscar for it and he said he likes her, but she wasn't very good in this.

Another line of dialogue that seemed off for the era was “buy the conceit.”

It's not been noted in these threads that Madelyn Pugh, then known as Madelyn Davis, also wrote for the Alice tv series starring Linda Lavin, who portrays the older Ms. Pugh in the movie. Her writing partner from I Love Lucy, Bob Carroll, Jr., also wrote for the Alice series.