AOC says it's 'actually delusional' to think Democrats can get re-elected without acting on student debt

White people reparations. It will be dangled forever and never acted on.

No one is more delusional than this bug-eyed bitch.

She needs to go. Primary this bitch.

She’s absolutely right

She's right you know. Dems promised this, a lot voted because of it. If they dont deliver what they promised, except millions to sit it out and let the Repugs take over.

[quote]She's right you know. Dems promised this, a lot voted because of it.

Anyone with two brain cells and half an ounce of common sense knew they could never deliver it. Anyone who believed what Bernie and Warren and AOC were selling is too stupid to be voting.

Isn’t this bitch’s fifteen minutes up yet?

Of all the snowflake socialists, the only smart one was Jill Stein. We never found out what happened to all those millions she raised for a recount that never happened. No wonder she calls it the Green Party!

We were told months ago that Biden wasn't going to be able to just forgive the loans on his own, that legally Congress had to approve it. Congress won't, so it's been removed from the bill in order to possibly get the rest of it passed.

Hopefully a new bill that is only about student loan reform or forgiveness will be introduced next year.

She’s right.

It’s actually delusional to think that those loans will be forgiven.

[quote]She's right you know. Dems promised this, a lot voted because of it.

And it looks like omicron and pressure on Dems is likely going to force him to backtrack on reinstating student loans.

They absolutely won't get out of this without doing some kind of reform (more likely) or forgiveness.

Remember Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot? She defunded her police force. She's now begging Merrick Garland to send in the ATF (Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms agents) to help

Under pressure to reduce violent crime, Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot delivered a speech on Monday aimed at reassuring the public that her administration takes the surge in shootings seriously and is working to make the city safer.

But the mayor fell short of offering any fresh strategies, hitting a series of familiar themes in an address of about 40 minutes delivered at the Garfield Park Gold Dome Fieldhouse While saying the city must address “root causes” of crime, including poverty, Lightfoot called for U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland to send additional agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to go after illegal guns and more prosecutors to bring additional criminal cases at the federal level.

She also called on Cook County judges to stop releasing people charged with violent crimes on electronic monitoring, reiterating a frequent complaint raised by City Hall and the Chicago Police Department that the court system is too lenient. Lightfoot said electronic monitoring should not be an option for individuals charged with murder, attempted murder, aggravated gun possession, sex crimes, illegal gun possession, carjacking, kidnapping or attempted kidnapping

"Of all the snowflake socialists, the only smart one was Jill Stein."

Yawn, troll harder, Republicans

"She defunded her police force."

No, she didn't. And crime is rising in lots of places, including the red states and places that have HUGE police budgets

Someone needs to remind her that Biden has been in office less than 12 months. Millennials and Gen Y have already thrown in the towel because they don’t understand how government works. Whining is not a key to winning.

r15, tell that to Boomers who think Biden is responsible for gas prices

[quote] Midterm bloodbath on the horizon

Apparently.

So far, 23 members of the House Democratic Caucus have announced they will not seek reelection.

Three so far this week. Florida Rep. Stephanie Murphy, California Rep. Lucille Roybal-Allard. New Jersey Rep. Albio Sires

Everyone has a complaint.

I wonder if these demanding progressives will always be fringe, like Berkeley city council members.

Or, one day it will be Progressive Party v. MAGA Party, and we know how that will turn out.

I wish they would wipe out both parties, they are both full of shit and profiting while the American people bicker amongst themselves.

I wish they would wipe out slackers like r21 who just love to complain but never get out of mom's house and run for office or start up their own party.

Does AOC want to live under a racist regime? Because that's what's going to happen if she encourages people to stay home. 2022 will be 2016 again.

r22 How would it work to start my own party when there is no chance for any other to prevail but the 2-party system? And my mom is dead, you must be projecting your own living quarters onto me.

I didn't think Biden ran on wiping out student loans altogether. I recall him at some town hall bursting the heart of some youngun' when she asked about canceling debt and he flat out said he wouldn't. I thought he ran on canceling like $10,000 and that was it.

I meant fascist regime.

[quote]How would it work to start my own party when there is no chance for any other to prevail but the 2-party system?

There will be no chance because people like you have already given up before even trying. Have you even tried? Have you ever run for anything like city counsel or mayor? I bet not. Change doesn't happen by sitting on your ass and whining about it. Always easier to be a critic than a participant. There are many other countries that have more than one party and there is no law in the constitution that forbids that.

[quote]Does AOC want to live under a racist regime? Because that's what's going to happen if she encourages people to stay home. 2022 will be 2016 again.

"Encourages." People will stay home if they're not excited about who is running, if they don't believe who is running or if they dislike who is running.

Nothing she says or does is going to change that. What she is doing is reminding the Democrats of that fact.

[quote]I thought he ran on canceling like $10,000 and that was it.

Correct. It was his compromise. Eliminating $10K of student loan debt would free 1/3rd of student loan borrowers. Also before the Datalounge "oldheads" chime in and blame Gen Z and Millennials, student loan debt is mostly held by borrowers aged 35 to age 61!

People forget that: Sanders wanted to eliminate all student loan debt. Warren wanted to forgive $50K for anyone with a household income under $100,000. (And anyone above that would have a smaller amount forgiven.) Harris said her plan was to forgive $20K in loans for people who start businesses in disadvantaged communities. Buttigieg wanted to create service opportunities beyond what was already there.

Biden's original proposal was to redo the programs in place to forgive student loans for teachers and government workers which most people got rejected from but it's not like those did much for people anyway so that didn't really thrill anyone. Basically it was, "Instead of rejecting 99% of you, we'll reject less of you!"

The problem was, when it got down to Biden, Sanders, Warren and Bloomberg (who wanted to use employers to pay off the debt of their employees by .... taking it out of their wages which was disgusting BUT he wanted free college for some students) ... Biden had to do something.

So he went with 10K forgiveness if people did service programs .... and then he had to rethink that since the requirements he put out originally were seen as too complex. (Again, another way to simply reject people who should qualify.)

So he went with 10K flat forgiveness without all the random strings attached.

You might as well let it all go people.

Free college = OUT

Climate investments = OUT

Health-care coverage = OUT

Affordable housing = OUT

And so on and so on. Basically everything needs to be out except for Coal industry handouts for State Manchin.

He is r16. Prices started rising literally the week after he took office and never stopped.

Wow, R30 is such a simpleton. Ever here of correlation is not causation?

Lets see, going by your method of logic, going to a hair dresser makes you gay, since most male hairdressers are gay.

R30, IIRC the Keystone Pipeline was nothing more than a conduit for Canadian shale oil to be brought through the US and then sold to non- US countries. So it wouldn't help with today's pricing issues. Besides, it's not like the oil is just sitting there...they do have other means of transporting it.

If cancelling Student Debt is important to you then the Democratic Party is the only choice because if you think anyone in the Republican Party is going to help you, you be crazy.

"All Out Crazy" again confirms what a dummy she is.

Her political instincts are great for Republicans. Even though few Democrats actually supported “defund the police,” she helped them get tagged with it and lose seats.

Given the electorate, paying off student loans is also a gift to Republicans. It feeds into their narrative that educated elites are taking advantage of the common people they disdain.

And, in politics, if you have to explain it? You have probably lost the argument.

We absolutely need to give the taxpayers' money away to our favored constituency if we want to be re-elected!

They went to a college they couldn't afford. Took out loans, now don't want to have to pay it back. I shed no tears.

College isnt cheap or almost free like it was for Boomers. You silly old trolls just don't get that. And not it's not relative, wages have been almost stagnant for 30 years while the cost of living, housing, food, gas, and especially tuition have quadrupled in that same time period. You cant work at McDonalds and expect to pay off that loan like Gradpa Boomer claimed he did back in his day.

There has to be a way to reduce some student debt for hardship cases or people who provide some public service. But how can there be mass forgiveness? It’s unfair to the people who worked their asses off to pay it back.

I worked for NYU and not everyone who went there is rich. I used to quietly counsel students to find another school rather than stagger under the debt but they didn’t listen. Unless you’re going into a field where you make the big bucks, borrowing money to go to a private college is insane.

[quote]If cancelling Student Debt is important to you then the Democratic Party is the only choice because if you think anyone in the Republican Party is going to help you, you be crazy.

I’ve been paying down student debt for 10+ years. Who cares at this point.

AOC knows her base. You can argue intellectual points or quibble about the way things *should be*, but she is very pragmatically saying that if you do X the result will be Y. Democratic voters have a history of shooting themselves in the foot "on principle". Remember all the Dems who voted for Ralph Nader to make a point, causing the razor thing margins for Bush and Gore. This is even more true of young people. By 2024 young people will make a large share of voters. Their opinions, whether one agrees with them or not, have to be given consideration.

[quote]It’s unfair to the people who worked their asses off to pay it back.

The world is not fair dude. Some people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth and never have to work or pay for collage. And they go to the best ones in the world, usually with half assed shitty grades. How fair is that?

[quote]By 2024 young people will make a large share of voters.

A large share of "potential" voters, perhaps, but unless they buck all historical precedent and get off their asses to actually cast a ballot, their influence will be marginal.

I agree that AOC is speaking for an important part of the Dem Party. However, she has to be shrewd to achieve her goals. If young people stay home, Democrats lose. But young people are notorious for not showing up to vote in midterms. If they turned out like things would be different.

…like seniors…

The government can’t legally cancel debt unless it is debt to the government. Are all these loans purely federal programs? If not, wouldn’t the government have to actually pay off these loans not just forgive or cancel them?

[quote]A large share of "potential" voters, perhaps, but unless they buck all historical precedent and get off their asses to actually cast a ballot, their influence will be marginal.

That is my point. There has to be a reason for them to vote or else they will stay home. The Democratic party has to stop expecting Democratic voters to "do the right thing." They really need to run on what matters to the voters, and to many, it is student loans. The current situation where the Democrats scold young people for not voting in one breath and then ridicule young people for what matters to them in another has got to stop.

Young people may have helped elect Biden, but they most certainly did not give him the power to deliver his agenda. So, rather than organize, they are going to sit it out. And, for this, we must be forgiving thousands of dollars of debt that they agreed to take on.

Republicans have organized for 50 years to overturn Roe.

[quote]If cancelling Student Debt is important to you then the Democratic Party is the only choice because if you think anyone in the Republican Party is going to help you, you be crazy.

The Republican plan to combat student debt, as articulated by Mensa candidate Madison Cawthorn:

She is 100% correct. And by making these statements, she is keep the pressure on Biden. She's 100% correct about that necessity of that, too. If she doesn't do this, then the issue really will be lost.

Keep fighting, AOC. We love you!

AOC needs to be careful presenting the issue. If young people do stay home, Republicans will control Congress. Dems won’t get anything done in any area. Student debt will just be one of many things that will not be addressed. So you know, cut off your nose to spite your face (or however that saying went.)

100% correct doesn’t mean much if it doesn’t get a ruling coalition. The President can only cancel debt under conditions authorized by Congress, which is how he has already cancelled $10B of student loans.

AOC needs to win a majority. Denocrats’ efforts in 2020 (when she was quite vocal) resulted in losing seats.

Unfortunately, a zinger tweet or viral clip doesn’t pass legislation.

Amazing how many people are attacking her and not what she has to say.

Section 10, Article III of the Constitution provides that no law impairing the obligation of contracts shall be passed. How does Biden or even Congress just void loan agreements.

[quote]College isnt cheap or almost free like it was for Boomers.

I went to Queens College in NYC and it's still cheap. The problem is young people today want "the college experience" which means going out of state. I have no pity.

[quote]Section 10, Article III of the Constitution provides that no law impairing the obligation of contracts shall be passed.

No, R54. It doesn't say that at all. It says:

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

How appropriate that the terms "AOC" and "delusional" appear in the same sentence.

[quote] She’s absolutely right

AOC is always right.

The problem is the Dems promise lots of stuff and face the music when they can’t deliver. The GOP doesn’t actually promise anything.

[Quote] I went to Queens College in NYC and it's still cheap. The problem is young people today want "the college experience" which means going out of state. I have no pity.

Um, people actually want to go to good colleges

The sad part is that she's probably right regarding re-electing...for all the wrong reasons.

The real question is whether young people or old people are the ones more determined to have the government give them money.

From a moral and ethical position, I'd argue that the sodial contract of social security/medicare was a promise made to people throughout their work lives. While students incurred their debts on their own, of their own volition, and let's face it, foolishly given that the majority of them never should have gone to college in the first place.

[quote]Um, people actually want to go to good colleges

Tells me how much you don't know about Queens College. Also tells me you're struggling to pay off student loans.

[Quote] Tells me how much you don't know about Queens College.

No one knows about Queens college. And thus is the problem for its graduates

[quote]While students incurred their debts on their own, of their own volition, and let's face it, foolishly given that the majority of them never should have gone to college in the first place.

You straight up miss the point when you drag in that phrase "of their own volition." If you want to discuss volitional acts, then you must commit to a thorough examination of the volitional act of Congress to create the federal guaranteed student loan program. It performed exactly as members of Congress intended. It turned America's young people into the indentured servants of banks.

The cost of tuition immediately began to escalate because the federal government intruded on the process. The federal government's volitional act took the market controls out of college tuition and all at the expense of young people too inexperienced to know what was hitting them. Colleges and universities had always operated on tuition, endowments, and other traditional fund raising programs. There was a limit to what students could pay. Everyone knew it and everyone operated within that limit. The federally guaranteed student loan program blew all of that up. It became a huge give away to colleges and universities, but chiefly it was a gift to bankers. They had a new product to peddle that never existed before and all at no risk to them because the federal government guarantees the loans with your tax dollars.

The whole thing is morally bankrupt. And indefensible. It should be phased out over a period of years. And that should begin immediately.

[quote]That is my point. There has to be a reason for them to vote or else they will stay home. The Democratic party has to stop expecting Democratic voters to "do the right thing." They really need to run on what matters to the voters, and to many, it is student loans.

The reason to vote is that staying home helps put Republicans in office. All these people who care about student loans...do you think having more Republicans in power is going to help you??

[quote]No one knows about Queens college. And thus is the problem for its graduates

Only you, Hon.

Staying home punishes the people you supported when they wanted your votes, but who then screwed you when they got the votes. It's easy to grasp how that happens and how it works.

[quote]The GOP doesn’t actually promise anything.

Well, except to own the libs, which seems to be 90% of what its base cares about.

AOC is incredibly stupid. People voted for Biden because they wanted an end to the crazy of the Trump years. That's it.

R67: Yes, but this a chance for all the Eldergays to hiss Hiss HISS!! at the youths, meaning anyone under 60, and they're not going to let that chance go by. Not to mention all the Nazi trolls with their WAH WAH NOT FAIR talking points and bashing of AOC.

Ergo, you get a thread that has proceeded as we thought it would.

AOC needs to educate her constituents on how our government works. Biden isn't a king. He needs the support from the senate and congress to make things happen.

When Biden ran for president it was looking like a blue tsunami election. It wasn't. In fact, Democrats lost seats in Congress. It's easy to make promises on the trail when you think you're going to have the support of the government behind you. The reality is it's difficult to make those promises happen when you don't. And she should know this.

If AOC was a good leader, she'd tell her followers to stop getting their panties in a twist and to elect more Democrats if they want a more progressive agenda.

[quote]If AOC was a good leader, she'd tell her followers to stop getting their panties in a twist and to elect more Democrats if they want a more progressive agenda.

She's not a good leader, and her followers are stupid.

Politicians are not leaders, R71. They are barometers, constantly measuring the pressure of a variety of issues. Then they follow the crowd. That's how they always work. They follow the biggest crowd.

Fascist demagogues or religious crazies. They are leaders. And no good ever comes from them. Better to crowd source the prevailing thought and mood than to get out in front and whip up a mob. We've recently had more than enough of that.

[quote] People voted for Biden because they wanted an end to the crazy of the Trump years. That's it.

Trump is already gone so if you want people to continue to vote for Biden or whomever else then he has to continually deliver on his campaign promises. Thanks to Trump, people are not simply going to overlook these things. Also the generations are shifting again. People will not simply vote for someone who will not do anything the say they will do.

(To be honest, I'm more upset about him not looking into reforming the Supreme Court which he also said he would do after he was pushed by the other primary candidates, especially Buttigieg.)

[quote] All these people who care about student loans...do you think having more Republicans in power is going to help you??

Let's make something clear: student loan reform/relief is a topic that matters to Republicans as well. Over half of Republican voters want something done. It's actually a bipartisan issue.

[quote]Um, people actually want to go to good colleges

There's nothing wrong with Queen's College.

Once I was in a show (when I was much younger) that was double cast and eventually people decided there was a "good" cast and a "mediocre" cast. That will absolutely happen if parents with money send their kids to certain schools while everyone else ends up going to community.

Employers care where you went to school and going to the right school links you to the right networking opportunities. You can't continually tell people, that if they can't afford college with help from their parents then they should go out and shine shoes.

[quote]Young people may have helped elect Biden, but they most certainly did not give him the power to deliver his agenda. So, rather than organize, they are going to sit it out

I'm not sure why people keep saying "young" people when the largest voting block is going to be Millennials (who share the same ideals as Gen-Z). Millennials aren't staying home, they're frickin' 40 and will be mid 40s by the time the next election arrives.

The DNC is in for a rude awakening if they don't start preparing themselves.

The handful of lefty attention whores (AOC, Pressley, etc.) appeal to their limited, lefty districts. They have no statewide appeal anywhere. A reminder that Liz Warren came in 3rd in her home state primary and 4th everywhere else. These people don't vote.

If you plan on being a dentist, a pharmacist, a doctor, a teacher or a computer programmer, you'll get a good education at Queens College for very little money. If you want to enter a field where a degree from a "fancy" school matters, don't go to Queens College. If you're going to major in something artsy, get ready to work at Starbucks no matter where you went to college.

[quote] AOC needs to educate her constituents on how our government works. Biden isn't a king. He needs the support from the senate and congress to make things happen. When Biden ran for president it was looking like a blue tsunami election. It wasn't. In fact, Democrats lost seats in Congress. It's easy to make promises on the trail when you think you're going to have the support of the government behind you. The reality is it's difficult to make those promises happen when you don't. And she should know this. If AOC was a good leader, she'd tell her followers to stop getting their panties in a twist and to elect more Democrats if they want a more progressive agenda.

Shooting the messenger and your condescending commentary about her “constituents” won’t change the reality that voters expect Democrats to deliver. Everyone should graduate from high school with a basic understanding of the federal government and US History. However (as this thread illustrates) Americans are often poorly educated. Naturally voters don’t care about the ins and outs of Congressional procedures and rules. They just want politicians to keep their word.

Democratic voters are unlikely to turn out for the midterms regardless. They certainly are not going to turn out; if Democrats don’t deliver. Just a harsh dose of reality. Regardless of how hard Democrats may work. Voters only care about results. Vote for us. We work extraordinarily hard but don’t deliver. Does anyone believe that’s a winning message? It’s not. Is this fair? No, however, it is reality.

R76... it's like that with every school. Schools tend to specialize in vocations.

Seems like R77 doesn't understand that Biden isn't a king.

R77 Democrats never turn out for the midterms. Never have. So cancelling the debt of a bunch of entitled people who spend their lives on social media cause they can't get a job with their degree in Gender Studies from Sarah Lawrence is NOT my problem.

Can someone post her breathless rendition of 21 wins from 2021 on Twitter?

It's amazing how the dumb g flyovers have figured out how the system works. They vote in every election no matter how important. They vote for school board, state senator, etc. They'll vote patiently for 50 years to make sure they get the Supreme Court they want. But Democrats can't figure out how the system works and will destroy the Dems chances of holding on to Congress because they're mad at Biden over "their" issue.

It's hopeless folks.

Bingo, r82. And it doesn't help that you have people like AOC fueling the fire.

Yep, look how long anti-abortion voters steadfastly stuck by the Republicans, even though they got nothing but lip service from the party for years. Now, 50 years later, their loyalty is about to be rewarded.

R82, conservatives march in lock step precisely because they are conservative. It's what they do. They are not liberal because they are intimidated by things that are free. They take comfort from being in line and tight with everyone else. The issues themselves are immaterial to them. It's the conformity and the solidarity that attracts them. Liberals find that far too constraining and stifling.

One side is constipated. The other side is a free for all. But we choose sides based on who we are. Liberals cannot act like conservatives because they are not conservative. And conservatives will never act like liberals, but not because of matters of policy. They band together for security, or at least the illusion of security.

[quote] Can someone post her breathless rendition of 21 wins from 2021 on Twitter?

Some of these I didn't know about and are legitimately impressive.

Others...are interesting and foundational and maybe inspirational but not what I would consider "wins"

[quote]Shooting the messenger and your condescending commentary about her “constituents” won’t change the reality that voters expect Democrats to deliver.

Voters need to lower their expectations. The choices are the Do-Nothing Dems, or the Fascist Republicans who want to overthrow democracy. That's it. Nobody is canceling student debt.

AOC is delusional to think she is a Democrat. She's a Socialist.

Snowflake "democrats" are ruining the party and disenfranchising the majority of the party, who are centrists.

Real Life isn't datalounge, where the majority of queens think they should get free college, endless stimulus, and risk free, bareback anal.

Waiting for the Boris and Trump troll to start calling me such because I don't share their immature views

Not all, but a lot of them that received student loans, have paid little to nothing on the loans. Most are not in poverty and have some kind of jobs and earnings. Not all are deadbeats, but some are; though the value of the loans can be astronomical.

College tuition and fees have risen way past inflation rates to outrageous cost levels. What needs subsidized are community college education/technical post-secondary programs and/or perhaps the first two years at a state college/university if normal academic progress is shown. Those attending very expensive public and private colleges could receive a voucher for a set amount in covering tuition if eligible.

The percent of the US population that have college loans is 13%.

If the Democrats were serious about wanting to win, they would have brought voting rights forward ahead of the We Wanna Be Denmark bill. Voter suppression bills have been enacted in 38 states. Progressives are all in leftwing districts, safe ultra-blue areas where they aren't affected by voter suppression so all they give a shit about - like teabaggers - is not being primaried by people even more extreme. Fuck them.

I often wonder, if you took AOC's brain, and combined it with Beyonce's brain, would you at least achieve the intellect of a 6th grader? Or, maybe not?

[quote]It's amazing how the dumb g flyovers have figured out how the system works.

They are very religious, which means they have regimented behaviors, like regular church attendance and VOTING. Their churches are politicized and the preachers encourage them to vote if they want to be seen as good Christians. It's almost impossible for Democrats to make inroads in rural America, which revolves around the church, because of it.

You don't have to go to a private school to get a good education, and much of your success in life is how hard you work and how well you work with people. I know plenty of people who went to Ivy league schools at my employer and I am far more successful than most of them.

[quote]I often wonder, if you took AOC's brain, and combined it with Beyonce's brain, would you at least achieve the intellect of a 6th grader? Or, maybe not?

Beyonce can't even read, so no.

Who does this Mexican girl think she is? I wish she'd shut up!

R93 rural populations the world over are always conservative, distrustful of outsiders, distrustful of new ideas. Though the US is way more obsessed with religion. Religion is really what hinders any progress in this country.

"No cancellation of student loan debt that doesn't come straight out of university endowments… If the debt is so odious that it must be cancelled, then it was fraudulent, and the universities were the perpetrators of the fraud." -Will Chamberlain

Populists like AOC want you to believe there is a magic government wand that gives you things for free. But adults know nothing is free, and government is not Santa Clause.

The universities have colluded wit Federal Agencies about 40 years to raise tuition and lower standards. Yes it is wrong that someone graduates 100k in debt with a gender studies degree that is essentially worthless, but never forget they made that decision too.

AOC is not dumb. Having leftist political and social views does not mean she has compromised intellect. She is articulate, determined, clever, and educated.

I like her, but disagree with much of her views. Some of her ideas, if enacted, would have disastrous consequences, in my opinion. She is learning, somewhat, to compromise in the House. Her zeal is a bit off-putting oftentimes, but the energy needs to sustain. So many politicians, both Democrats and GQPers, in the House and Senate, are extraordinarily lazy, and are there to rake in the money from special interests. AOC isn't lazy, and shows a measure of sincerity, though her political positions can be unsettling.

R98: Go fuck yourself Nazi Troll. The majority of debt is held by people who are middle aged, NOT rich, and never took a gender studies class. Take your Republican talking points and shove em in your twat.

R80: 2018 proves you wrong on the first comment. As for the rest of your post, see above. Go fuck yourself Nazi Troll.

R74: You're responding to another Nazi Troll who was using the same Republican talkign points about how "Biden only won because he wasn't Trump and therefore Democrats shouldn't do anything" to defend Joe Manchin in that thread the other day. FF and ban that loser.

Forever cementing Progressives as the party of a very selective group of people.

Yes, there very much is a magic government wand that gives you things for free. Banksters and Defense Contractors have known this for decades. Maybe throw a little of that largesse to people who graduated with ridiculous debt loads. It won't kill anyone to try that for a change.

About half the population goes to college. 48% of debt is held by households with graduate degrees. Student loan balances are higher for those above the 80th percentile in income than lower income levels. The highest 40% in income owe about 60% of the debt and make about 75% of the payments.

The lowest 40% in income only makes 10% of the payments.

Who is this fight for?

R102: These trolls only know the script the Heritage Foundation gave them. They will NEVER acknowledge the hypocrisy of the right wing in how they appropriate federal money. What I don't get is just about everybody here knows they're trolls and will never buy their fake bitch-ass "arguments" and yet they just repeatedly puke out the same garbage over and over. R80 and R98 are the same stupid comment 18 posts apart. We should take bets if R 116 will be the same thing again.

R103: The people. Cut the divisive crap, Boris.

R105, no. High earners with debt- you really aren't understand this. It's frighteningly myopic.

I understand it serves her constituency, and probably you. But a factory worker in Ohio should not pay for your MFA.

[quote] Seems like [R77] doesn't understand that Biden isn't a king.

[quote] [R77] Democrats never turn out for the midterms. Never have. So cancelling the debt of a bunch of entitled people who spend their lives on social media cause they can't get a job with their degree in Gender Studies from Sarah Lawrence is NOT my problem.

1. As I initially stated voters don’t care about rules and procedure.

2. After I stated that Democrats are unlikely to turn out regardless. You felt the need to explain to me that Democrats are unlikely to turn out. Democrats did turn out in 2018. Percentage wise black voters outnumbered white voters in 2012.

We can ramble on all day about what voters should do. However, it won’t change the fact that. We are going into the midterms with:

1. Republican voter suppression and election rigging laws continuing to be enacted.

2. An unpopular president.

3. The message: we worked very hard but are unable to deliver on our promises.

Voters don’t give a fuck about the senate rules and the congressional procedures. They don’t care about the 50/50 spilt and the filibuster. They don’t care about Republican obstruction. They only see politicians who have not delivered. Again not fair but it’s reality.

I'm scared of how stupid you all are. AOC is beautiful and went to a great school. If she were actually smart, she wouldn't have been a bartender picked up by a political operator as a Bernie surrogate. She's a puppet. She hasn't written anything. She can barely give me a cogent interview. You guys scare me. This loses us elections across the country.

We will lose infinitely more elections because of Joe Manchin and all the Centrist saints and their stupid, stubborn beliefs and whoring for the rich than we will lose from AOC or the entire squad.

R106: Debt holders pay taxes too, you fucking idiot. You used that divisive talking point on the last thread about this issue and I spanked you on it then. CUT. THE. CRAP!

R108: Keep crying about how great she is and how worthless you are, Nazi Troll.

[quote]"Biden only won because he wasn't Trump and therefore Democrats shouldn't do anything" to defend Joe Manchin in that thread the other day. FF and ban that loser.

Yeah, no. Context matters. And again, the context had to do with people whining about things not being passed. But glad you're still on your Nazi rant. I find it funny.

[quote] I'm scared of how stupid you all are. AOC is beautiful and went to a great school. If she were actually smart, she wouldn't have been a bartender picked up by a political operator as a Bernie surrogate. She's a puppet. She hasn't written anything. She can barely give me a cogent interview. You guys scare me. This loses us elections across the country.

Are you personal opinions about Orcasio- Cortez going to change the minds of voters seeking debt relief and make them turn out? This is about voter turnout.

[quote]The percent of the US population that have college loans is 13%.

Well R90: As of 2018 in re: to people over 25

90% of Americans have a diploma or GED.

60% of Americans attended some kind of college.

45% have a bachelor's degree or associates degree.

35% have a bachelor's degree.

13% have a masters.

3.5% have a doctorates.

42.9 million people or 1 in 8 have student loan debt.

People with a BA earn about 32K more than people with just a high school diploma. If you are a millennial and you just have a high school degree you likely will earn only 62% of what someone with a BA would make.

Biden would do better to restructure student loan debt rather than forgive it. Cap interest rates, allow for refinancing and have it excused in the event of bankruptcy.

Obama was on that track r114, with the Income Based Repayment plans. I think that may be the way to go, if it is run honestly. Payments based entirely on a percentage of income, and forgiven after 20 years or something. There were other forgiveness programs based on public service, etc, but I think they turned out to be mainly frauds and lies. Honest, income based repayment does make sense here. The truth is, the government and society in general does benefit from having a highly educated populace. They are in part sleazing out of paying for that benefit.

[quote] Biden would do better to restructure student loan debt rather than forgive it. Cap interest rates, allow for refinancing and have it excused in the event of bankruptcy.

Biden ran on forgiving $10,000 via Congress. Too late to unring that bell.

Not if lowering interest rates saves more than 10K, r116. I don't think you know how much people owe in interest.

R110, I love you. I criticized you for being myopic, you accused me of being someone else you fought with earlier, brought in a non sequitur about taxes, and called me a Nazi.

I am genuinely curious about who you are and what you do. Are you a troll? Or a truly passionate voter who needs their debt canceled to survive? I didn't mean to irk you so.

Biden extends the pause on student loan repayments for 3 more months.

[quote]Biden extends the pause on student loan repayments for 3 more months.

Of course he did.

Joe Biden did that. Progressives have nothing to do with it.

Progressives forced him to do it.

Well maybe they do r122. Maybe he is trying to throw them a bone because of the whole Manchin fuckup. Regardless, a pause doesn't really solve the overall problem, of course.

No they didn’t.

R124: Cry harder.

I don’t need to. I love Joe Biden.

This sounds borderline racist but... most of my family and friends are Jewish. The only student debt I am familiar with is money borrowed to go to medical or law school. I don't know anyone who borrowed alot of money to get an undergraduate degree. They either got scholarship aid, went to a state school or had rich parents to pay the whole bill. Borrowing money to get an undergraduate degree is not seen as a wise investment. In fact, my brother paid his children to attend State school and not attend private universities. He thought it was a much better use of his money.

R126: Then you will love AOC and the Progressives as well. Can't have him without them.

Well, then, I have to say “bye”.

Bye to what r129? bye to Biden? Cause of the Squad? Why?

Bernie did an enormous disservice to gullible Americans, trying desperately to get support from a bunch of kids by misinterpreting everything that he claims is "free" in Europe. Starting with college. Only a third of Europeans go to university. The vast majority leave school at 15 to apprentice to trades which are generally offered as a collaboration between the state and private companies. And if you qualify to go to university in Europe, you probably would qualify to get a scholarship in the US. And you can't get any bullshit, self-indulgent degrees. You get degrees in fields of study which result in jobs the country needs filled. Which is why the taxpayer subsidizes universities which are all public.

Even if college tuition is very low compared to the extravagant tuition fees of US colleges, there is little student housing, universities are located in large cities where costly housing is already an issue. Most of the students I went to college with were 'fils a papa' living at home with their well-to-do parents.

That is interesting r131. Is that true all over Europe, or just some countries? What are some of the fields allowed for study? Is history allowed? Archeology? Linguistics? Or is it all just study to be a drone or a cog in a factory or office? What exactly are the jobs that need to be filled?

History = you become a history teacher. Archeology = you become an archeologist. Architecture = you become an architect. Europeans want universities to train teachers, lawyers, doctors, dentists, chemists, chemical engineers, physicists, mathematicians, computer scientists, economists, etc. There are few slots to be filled in universities for psychology, sociology, philosophy - the fields US students who don't know what they want to do, fall back on. There are no openings for Gender Studies Professionals.

She hardly has her fingers on America's pulse.

[quote]The government can’t legally cancel debt unless it is debt to the government. Are all these loans purely federal programs? If not, wouldn’t the government have to actually pay off these loans not just forgive or cancel them?

Actually a lot of them are government loans. I worked at a shitty for-profit school once and they had a department staffed with more people than actual instructors. All they did all day was talk these kids into getting government student loans. The kids were really too young to know any better really. 50% default rate too. Cant BK out of a student loan either thanks to the the Boomers who made a routine joke out of doing that when they were that age. Now there is no way to get out of it.

Okay, not trying to be too argumentative r132 (maybe a little), but by the logic you set up, Psychology=you become a psychologist. Sociology, you become a sociologist, etc. Are those just considered nothing? If so, why? and for that matter Gender Studies Professional, you become a Gender Studies expert. Don't some European countries actually have Gender Ministers, even? I'm just not sure how all this works. Does the government really sit down and decide, we need the following jobs filled, and we'll pay people to study for them? Cause honestly, that's some silly bullshit given the inability to predict what jobs will be needed 20 years from now. (Actually, I have a whole thing about how useless most current jobs are, but that's a whole other thing for another time.)

R131, you have a link to that? I do believe you and would like to use this IRL.

R136: No, this troll is lying to you. He's the Obsessive Gender Studies Bigot Troll that has repeatedly spammed this thread with his obvious stupidity. In the UK, for instance, you have to go to Sixth Form College when you're 17 and 18 and pass exams to be able to qualify for university to receive funding. You must pick a major and you can't change it if you don't want to forfeit funding. You are free to do so, but you loose funding. But absolutely no country tells people you HAVE To major in this and then do this job. The troll is lying to you to bash Sanders and women. He is very obviously a sick individual.

thanks for that r138. It didn't really make sense. I do know at least some European countries pay for people to go to college, and I've always wondered how that works in practice. I assume there are some rules and restrictions, but not sure what exactly.

[quote] 42.9 million people or 1 in 8 have student loan debt.

R113, that's what I said. 13% have college debt.

Are you trying to disagree with me? Or do you agree with me?

I posted that stat as a fact, not an argument.

You can take what you want from it. I take that it's not a huge segment of the population. Now maybe it's enough of the voting population but I haven't seen those stats yet.

AOC is delusional if she thinks she's more important than she actually is.

Shut up, learn how government works, take copious notes, earn respect and then shoot your mouth off.

By attacking the President, the Speaker, other members of her own party, does she not realize that every time she opens her mouth, she doesn't help Democrat chances for keeping the House and Senate???

How is any of that delusional r141? How is questioning things from the Left delusional? She has a voice because it is so unexpected. We are so used to only allowing questioning things from the Right? Why is it that the second somebody questions a Democratic President from the Left it becomes delusional, and divisive, and a threat to any Democratic majority? Why exactly is that?

And just like a Leftist, I can't shut up, so I'll also add, isn't Manchin, the saintly centrist, infinitely more divisive and annoying than AOC or any member of the squad, when it comes to what is really happening in Washington, and not the carefully tailored Fox News version of what is happening?

R142: Because to center-right cretins like the thing you're talking to, anybody to the left of Attila the Hun must shut up, vote every 2 years, then shut up, then vote every 2 years, then shut up......

They are owed the support of the Left while they owe the Left nothing in terms of policy and insults in terms of rhetoric. It's an uppity, selfish worldview. Basically the center-right can never fail, it can only be failed.

It's also completely false, as AOC and the Evil Squad ARGLE BARGLE were the ones pushing Biden's agenda against the right wing of the party that wanted to kill it outright. Stupid trolls are stupid.

[Quote] The cost of tuition immediately began to escalate because the federal government intruded on the process.

Wrong. First the government has paid schools for a long time—for research and government backed loans. Second, the quickly escalating tuition costs are the reason the fed govt stepped in to help.

R10 Then why did they make it a running point? Oh thats right, we were duped. Typical democrat bait and switch.

[Quote] AOC is delusional if she thinks she's more important than she actually is. Shut up, learn how government works, take copious notes, earn respect and then shoot your mouth off.

As a congressperson, AOC knows intimately how government works. She also knows govt won’t take action unless you constantly advocate for your position.

You, however, are sitting in your Russian mother’s basement in Moscow.

[Quote] They either got scholarship aid, went to a state school or had rich parents to pay the whole bill. Borrowing money to get an undergraduate degree is not seen as a wise investment.

Nowadays, students only get scholarship aid if they’re poor

True all that r145, and state governments have been infinitely worse in promising and lying. But government should actually get a cut of the action when it comes to things like medication and pharmaceuticals and really all the internet. They constantly help fund the creation of things and then get cut out when it comes to the profits. Privatize the profits and socialize the costs is more than a slogan. It's a constant in history.

[quote] The percent of the US population that have college loans is 13%.

We should assume though that a large portion of those people are not immoral and so expect to pay back what they promised to do when they signed the loan agreement.

[Quote] She hardly has her fingers on America's pulse.

These Americans elected and support Trump, so Americans aren’t exactly the smartest folks

[Quote] Europeans want universities to train teachers, lawyers, doctors, dentists, chemists, chemical engineers, physicists, mathematicians, computer scientists, economists, etc.

Yes, industry and the oligarchs want to be sure you fit into its caste system and work your fingers off to make them richer

Why should student debt be cancelled? Why don’t they cancel mortgage debt too? Having to pay a mortgage is really weighing down on me and I don’t think I can ever crawl out of this hole.

r151 Orange Man was "selected" not "elected."

well there is a difference r153. You do have a definable asset at the end of all that. and actually something to sell if it really is overwhelming. I hope you don't have to, but the truth is you could sell and get out from under that obligation. Student loan debt is different that way. There is no actual tangible asset you can sell or give up, really, to get out of that debt.

There's no argument to be had about this, because the basic assumption is:

"I was tricked/duped into taking on the debt for a loan for my education I can't pay off with my career."

The person making this argument is essentially saying "I am stupid. I don't understand money, planning, long term decision making."

You can't reason with a stupid person. It's pointless to argue about this with them. They will never get it.

that is not the argument r156. The argument is that a lot of people have been saddled with largely unpayable debts and this is actually a problem for the society at large, and not just the very particular people involved. There is a larger argument about a whole society lying to itself and creating a large and stupid system that in fact weighs down the society at large.

[quote] Student loan debt is different that way. There is no actual tangible asset you can sell or give up, really, to get out of that debt.

Your degree is a tangible asset. Without it, you wouldn’t be able to get most professional jobs. So you want loans forgiven but keep the degree that you got from it and continue to benefit from?

R157, how does it weigh down society? You know there is public service loan forgiveness? That in and of itself is a benefit to society. But let's look at your argument piece by piece -

1. Largely unplayable debts: Income based repayment plans. 2. Student loan debt effects the world in no ways differently than credit card or mortgage debt. 3. 87% of Americans have no student loan debt.

You are lying to yourself.

You can't hear this, but you were supposed to work harder.

Public Service Loan Forgiveness was apparently a fraud and a lie. Most people, it turns out, don't qualify for stupid reasons, implying it was never actually meant to work.

Student loans can weigh down society as a whole if a lot of people are not buying houses and not doing all kinds of other things because they are struggling to pay off loans, which they really had to take in order to attend college. You can say it was a choice, but deep down, it wasn't a real choice. You're 19, you got into a good school, everyone is thrilled, now sign all this shit you don't really understand and pretend it's completely voluntary. Yay!!!

[Quote] Your degree is a tangible asset. Without it, you wouldn’t be able to get most professional jobs. So you want loans forgiven but keep the degree that you got from it and continue to benefit from?

The assumption is they’re not getting much benefit from their degrees, at least not enough benefit to be able to pay the loans back without ending up impoverished

It is ridiculous that students have to borrow to pay tuition and that interest continues to go up if the Fed says so. So maybe tuition was $50 k but the ultimate that has to get paid back is $75k

And it's not tangible in that you can't actually sell it. There's nothing you actually have that is worth an actual amount, like a house. That is what I meant.

R161, that "good school" was an investment you made. And it failed. You took a risk that you would have a good career, high earnings, etc and it failed. You still have to pay it back.

R164, you're acquiring human capital. It is intangible but no less valuable.

R163, that's how loans work.

Ok.

So basically none of you took economics? That's what this is?

Look. In case you haven't noticed. In the interest of being "fair" and balanced" the News Media has been kicking Biden's ass, and no one wants to hear that he's only been in office for 12 months. Personally I think he's been extraordinary. He's done a fantastic job. But the Media is deliberately exploiting unease and dissatisfaction out here, to gin up controversy.

Here are some truisms in politics. People are always uneasy about the economy, no matter how low the unemployment rate is or how well they are doing personally. They always worry. Don't quote statistics to them. Because they only care about themselves and immediate family.

Do not quote any more statistics to them and hold memorials to the hundreds of thousands of dead people who were COVID fatalities. They know. The media does all COVID all the times. It reminds me of Cronkite and the hostage crisis, " This is day 400 of the COVID crisis and there are 810,000 dead...and counting."

Joe needs to stop doing too many addresses about COVID. Period. Let his staff do the heavy lifting and he needs to limit his exposure. Third: Supply chain. People do not want to hear about how much better things are. They may not experience supply chain problems, but still...they "heard it's bad someplace else." This pandemic has really fucked with our anxiety levels.

Getting rid of student loan debt doesn't just help the students, it helps families who are still paying off loans they took out to pay for their kids' college. And during Trump's reign, the loan sharks and predators were out in force. You can make a very successful issue out of that. For the Dems to win, kitchen table issues are still the winning issues. The Environment is a winning issue, and tax the rich is a winning issue. So is prescription drug coverage. And some witty tough talk about Republicans.

Joe "Lets Make a Deal" Biden needs to put his "bi-partisanship" mantra on a shelf, and put on some damned boxing gloves. Because the people like leaders who kick some ass. Even though Trump was a fraud and a fake, he talked tough. He exploited a sense of resentment people felt. He made sure he reflected their grievances. It's time he was used for the right purpose:

[quote]Biden ran on forgiving $10,000 via Congress. Too late to unring that bell.

Biden doesn't control Congress. People who believed that are too stupid to be voting.

[quote] And it's not tangible in that you can't actually sell it. There's nothing you actually have that is worth an actual amount, like a house. That is what I meant.

Of course your degree is worth an actual amount. Your degree gets you the job you have and future jobs you’ll get. Without a degree, you’ll be working blue collar jobs. Your degree is worth all the earnings you get. Your education is priceless.

I'm not getting a job and I'm not paying back shit! Fuck Biden!

[quote]R30, IIRC the Keystone Pipeline was nothing more than a conduit for Canadian shale oil to be brought through the US and then sold to non- US countries. So it wouldn't help with today's pricing issues. Besides, it's not like the oil is just sitting there...they do have other means of transporting it.

Yes, and the shale oil would go to a tax free zone in Texas and then shipped to China and other countries. America wouldn't get taxes from it either, but they'd have all the environmental risks. Who do you think would pay for all the oil leaks? The U.S taxpayers

Biden has had the best economy in is first term of any president in the last 50 years—but no one in the media is mentioning that

R173, plus I believe it only offered a handful of long term jobs. So little economic gain from that pipeline

Okay, so it seems everyone is determined to miss the point. The problem, if there is a problem, with student loans is that there is no giving them back, nothing you can sell to pay them off, they are just a grim and bitter fact of life. There is no way to get rid of them once they are made. You can gas and bloviate about how valuable they are, but they really aren't. That degree may in fact not lead to a great new job, and if it doesn't, you are still 100% stuck with the original loan that got you that degree. It is not an actual invesment. Not a house. Not an anything. There is just you and this loan and this long series of payments. That is all. That is it. All of it. Now, the question for society is if we are okay with millions of people having this grim and bitter fact of life, or if we might want to alleviate that and let people buy other stuff that would otherwise go to paying off this endless debt. That is the real question here.

[quote]"I was tricked/duped into taking on the debt for a loan for my education I can't pay off with my career." The person making this argument is essentially saying "I am stupid. I don't understand money, planning, long term decision making."

Welcome to the world of AOC supporters, and Bernie supporters, and Warren supporters. "I am stupid" is how they self-identify.

Nothing is more "I am stupid" than voting for Trump. Actually, voting for any slave of the rich comes close.

A college education is a necessity to have a good career nowadays. Forcing kids to take thousands in loans just to have the basics seems ridiculous.

Sure you can go to podunk state school but state schools are getting pretty expensive too and going to podunk makes your hope for success a little harder. At my work, whenever there’s an applicant with and Ivy League degree, they automatically get a leg up. That’s the truth at many coveted companies.

Middle class kids are trapped.

I wonder if it will just take a year of everybody deciding, no, this is the year nobody goes to college. a lot to ask of young kids, but if every 18 year old decided, no, we are not going to go through the ritual of filling out forms and going to college mechanically without thinking about this. Would that force us all, as a society to rethink this whole system?

[quote] Biden extends the pause on student loan repayments for 3 more months.

If poor old Joe folds under AOC's bullying what must be happening behind the scenes with Putin.

Or, Joe is doing what is best for the American people and that happens to coincide with the wishes of one of the 435 members of the House of Representatives.

Just as standing up to Putin does both as well.

[quote] The problem was, when it got down to Biden, Sanders, Warren and Bloomberg (who wanted to use employers to pay off the debt of their employees by .... taking it out of their wages

It’s an excellent idea to garnish the wages of borrowers to ensure that they do exactly what they promised to do to pay back their loans. Since paying one’s obligations should all be the first expenses paid, the issue rightfully becomes how do debtors pay for their other expenses.

[quote] I wonder if it will just take a year of everybody deciding, no, this is the year nobody goes to college. a lot to ask of young kids, but if every 18 year old decided, no, we are not going to go through the ritual of filling out forms and going to college mechanically without thinking about this. Would that force us all, as a society to rethink this whole system?

Yeah, you all go do that while I go to college. 😂 And no, I do not want fries with that.

[quote] That degree may in fact not lead to a great new job, and if it doesn't, you are still 100% stuck with the original loan that got you that degree.

So what? People who go to culinary school don’t all become star chefs. Some toil away in small restaurants. People who go to bartending school might not become top bartenders while others who never went to bartending school do. Nothing is guaranteed.

People who go to law school might not end up practicing law. Should they get a refund on their law school loans just because it didn’t pan out?

[quote] It is not an actual invesment. Not a house. Not an anything. There is just you and this loan and this long series of payments. That is all. That is it. All of it.

It is an investment in yourself. It is an investment in your life and future earnings and type of job you get. Just because it’s not a physical thing like a house or car, doesn’t make it any less of an investment.

Why do people have to go to college? We’re seeing a great shortage of blue collar workers right now. We need more janitors, garbage men, waiters, busboys, cashiers, etc. Businesses have all these help wanted signs but they cannot fill these positions right now because there are not enough people. Not everyone has to go the college track.

1) Not everyone HAS to go to college, but everyone should have the OPPORTUNITY to do so.

2) I personally believe most people should have some transition period. To say to every 18 y/o "here's your high school diploma, GOOD LUCK" is a recipe for disaster, imho.

3) Having been to college and grad school, I am a huge advocate for trade schools and junior colleges. I have come to believe that learning how to focus your mind on a course of study helps a person be more successful at adapting to whatever industry they may be in.

4) The world changes and people should be able to change careers if they wish. I argue that learning "the basics" gets harder once people get older and/or have more "adult" responsibilities. Starting a secondary education while in late teens/early 20's gives people more leeway to shift gears later.

5) Moreover, doing so gives them a better idea of their interests and options even as they pursue one path over another.

6) One look at some of our current political voices who have not had their horizons broadened by interacting with people of diverse backgrounds shows how narrow thinking is damn near debilitating.

[quote] Being a HS/college dropout doesn’t define someone’s intelligence.

[quote] However, speaking as if you are an expert in a field without the proper training/education/practice makes you a fraud.

[Quote] Biden extends the pause on student loan repayments for 3 more months.

Because mass loan defaults will lead directly to another recession

[Quote] Why do people have to go to college? We’re seeing a great shortage of blue collar workers right now. We need more janitors, garbage men, waiters, busboys, cashiers, etc. Businesses have all these help wanted signs but they cannot fill these positions right now because there are not enough people. Not everyone has to go the college track.

Yes, but these are the very jobs that suffer first the second there’s a downturn in the economy (usually every 10 years). The unemployment rate during recession is very low for college grads

My niece works at a fast food chain. She's upset because she'll be losing her job in a few months when they automate and get rid of 70% of their employees. Everything is computerized. you get this thing, like a phone, you pick out your food order press a button and you're texted when it's ready. You go to the counter and pick it up. Thee ae kiosks in most McDonald's now too. So you have to get training. to stay employed. I don't care if it's two or four years. Or 6 years. You have to go beyond high school, and the way we're set up now it just ignorant. Unemployment costs all of us. We need people gainfully employed. That means educated and trained. And when people are employed, they buy stuff, pay taxes and contribute to your Social Security.

Unless you're a doctor or lawyer you don't need college. Go to a trade school .. plumbers and electricians can make $150,000 a year.

Plumbers and electricians and auto mechanics are always going to be in demand and have a job, unaffected by economic downturns.

A Union electrician in Manhattan makes about $75k. Plumber is about the same.

My brothers did not go to college. They barely graduated high school so they had neither the aptitude or interest to continue schooling. They didn't go to trade school, either, but they learned on the job and now each own their own small trade businesses with 2-3 employees. They all make six figures in flyover country.

Some of these people who want to go to college but don’t want loans could also join the military or do ROTC.

Pramila Jayapal is the real brains behind the House progressives. They allow AOC to tweet some things because she has a large social media following. But otherwise, I think the House leadership generally tries to keep her muzzled.

From a practical POV the student loan thing is a bad move

1. You piss off the 70% of Americans who did not go to college by giving others a free ride

2 You piss off the Dem base of educated UMC voters, many of whom spent 20 years saving for their kids to go to college without taking any loans.

3. You piss off all the people who did actually scrimp and save to pay off their loans

What we should do is propose a plan where you do a year or two of some sort of national service (similar to WPA) and in return your loans are forgiven.

Wiping them out without any consequence is insane as it seems like we are letting irresponsible people get away with something

^^WPA or CCC

[quote]1. You piss off the 70% of Americans who did not go to college by giving others a free ride

Americans that don’t care that having an educated population helps us all, 1/3rd of borrowers suddenly able to contribute more to the economy, a population that will see relief as they foot the bill for their children

[quote]2 You piss off the Dem base of educated UMC voters, many of whom spent 20 years saving for their kids to go to college without taking any loans.

Any kind of loan forgiveness will have to go hand in hand with reform. Also you are assuming we all had parents who helped pay for us to go college at all. Weird.

[quote]3. You piss off all the people who did actually scrimp and save to pay off their loans

I was too young to be part of the Dot Com boom and missed out on all the money I could have made. I never got the child tax credit because I never had any children 😢😢😢

It’s not a new thing that not everything has to apply to everyone.

[quote]What we should do is propose a plan where you do a year or two of some sort of national service (similar to WPA

See the problem is that these things ALREADY EXIST and they DON’T work because the government thinks of new and exciting ways to make loan forgives through service difficult to get because they don’t want to support their own pitch.

Most loan holders are in their 50s/early 60s and telling them in addition to working your normal job you need to now go out had work full time somewhere else isn’t going to fly.

Yeah we've done this thread over over. From the comments here I can tell many people aren't familiar with how the Obama / Direct Student Loan era works, which we are essentially still living in. There are many repayment options, I qualified for $0 monthly payments during the Recession years and remained in good standing.

10K in student loan debt relief, which is what was promised, is absolutely reasonable for the times we are in. A lot of people would still need to make payments but they would be much more affordable. People are getting huge child care credits, but I don't see anyone here saying how that's unfair to people who don't have kids. I wouldn't blame any Dem for not voting in the next cycle because the Dems couldn't work it out with House Senate and WH.

R198/R199: Uneducated concern troll is uneducated and concerned.

It also doesnt bode well for Biden or Dems that the government has to keep extending the COVID student loan payment suspension, which has now gone on for almost two years. That just proves to voters that some form of legislation for student loan relief should've been enacted by now.

[quote] 10K in student loan debt relief, which is what was promised, is absolutely reasonable for the times we are in.

Repayment of 10k could be suspended until the times we are in are past and then the debtor could pay it back as they promised to do.

Send her back to Mexico

They could suspend this but not Medicare premiums for seniors? Fuck them. They were in a better position to keep working and make their loan payments than elderly people who were at higher risk to be out and about during a pandemic. Let Biden count on the youngsters to get out and vote.

Did AOC suggest suspending Medicare premiums?

r204 most people have between 25k and 30k of student loan debt when they enter repayment. My point is that borrowers would still need to make payments but they would be more affordable, if Biden follows through with 10k debt relief.

And FYI, most people pay back student loans according to their income level. Generally if you are making less than 50k a year you can get your payments reduced so they can be affordable. The debt relief would accelerate the payoff for these people.

Colleges and universities should reimburse students! They scammed, the US taxpayer did not. The student loan program has been a huge transfer of wealth to these institutions. It was one huge scam perpetuated by these institutions. The loans were made in good faith. The US taxpayer should not pay for this racket or the students' stupidity.

^^^Sorry for the incoherence. I'm doing to many things at once.

[quote] most people have between 25k and 30k of student loan debt when they enter repayment

If that's all they owe, then their payments are $50 month. I know this from experience.

[quote]At my work, whenever there’s an applicant with and Ivy League degree, they automatically get a leg up. That’s the truth at many coveted companies.

Just how many people do you think qualify for an Ivy League school? And even those that do and who aren't wealthy are getting some sort of financial help from an endowment fund. This conversation is about the mere mortals who aren't able to go Ivy...which is the vast majority of people in college.

[quote]If that's all they owe, then their payments are $50 month. I know this from experience.

This may be correct for YOU but it's absolutely not correct for everyone.

Their payments will be between $156 and $363 a month with a 10 year repayment plan and other factors (interest rate) altering the payments.

At 35K you'll be repaying 43K if your interest rate is around 4.5%

[quote]Yes, but these [blue collar] are the very jobs that suffer first the second there’s a downturn in the economy (usually every 10 years).

Actually, outside of a pandemic, it's the white collar jobs that suffer first. When the middle class stops spending due to unemployment it eventually hits blue collar jobs.

The government should do something about the interest rates on student loans but erasing student loan debt for a current bunch of people who owe money is ridiculous. So is college free in the future for anybody who doesn't currently have student loans? How are you going to make up the loss for people who paid off their student loans already? Are you going to give $50K to people who couldn't afford to even think about going to college?

This is just Liz Warren applying her elitist logic (why the fuck would I pay off the debts of somebody who went to Harvard to network and then decided they'd rather spend their time bitching on social media than get a job?) in the hope of getting some votes.

They could come up with a plan (which was actually suggested by Beto O'Rourke during the primary) that to erase student debt, people should work X number of years in community service jobs (nurses, doctors working in underprivileged and rural locations where doctors never want to work, working at the VA, teaching in underfunded districts, lawyers working as public defenders, etc.) to erase their debt. That would be fair.

[quote] My point is that borrowers would still need to make payments but they would be more affordable, if Biden follows through with 10k debt relief.

The problem with that is that people would end up not having to pay back all of what they borrowed, which would be unacceptable.

I see lots of random statements in this thread e.g., "Most loan holders are in their 50s/early 60s" that don't seem to be supported by any links, which make me think they're troll posts.

If all AOC wants is $10K worth of relief, than, like with everything else the Progressives touch, IT NEEDS A BETTER FUCKING NAME.

People hear :"Student Debt Forgiveness" and immediately think "letting off all the deadbeats who partied and took expensive vacations instead of saving for college"

Sort of how "Medicare For All" sounds like "Cheap bare-bones government health care designed for welfare recipients that is clearly going to be much worse than the overpriced plan you have now that sucks pretty hard."

And that's before you get into "Defund the police"

[quote] I see lots of random statements in this thread e.g., "Most loan holders are in their 50s/early 60s" that don't seem to be supported by any links, which make me think they're troll posts. If all AOC wants is $10K worth of relief, than, like with everything else the Progressives touch, IT NEEDS A BETTER FUCKING NAME. People hear :"Student Debt Forgiveness" and immediately think "letting off all the deadbeats who partied and took expensive vacations instead of saving for college" Sort of how "Medicare For All" sounds like "Cheap bare-bones government health care designed for welfare recipients that is clearly going to be much worse than the overpriced plan you have now that sucks pretty hard." And that's before you get into "Defund the police"

Biden ran on $10,000 debt cancellation. That's his promise, not hers. After a yr of campaigning on it and after one yr in office. Everyone should be familiar with that, by now. The wording is self explanatory.

Sort of how people think "Build Back Better" is the infrastructure deal R217?

No one is paying much attention and the Democrats SUCK at messaging and so all the good stuff Biden is doing gets lost.

[quote] Everyone should be familiar with that, by now

And this is why they suck at messaging:

You would hear the same bullshit from Hillary Stans in 2016 when people would say they had no idea what she stood for. "It's on her website!" "She wrote a 100 page policy paper on it!"

What's sad is that everyone thinks they know what "Critical Race Theory" is, despite the whole thing being a giant dog whistle.

You know who knew that messaging mattered?

BILL Clinton.

Agree with r217, people need to stop making up things and actually read the news. Biden has said it would be 10K for the longest time.

[quote]The problem with that is that people would end up not having to pay back all of what they borrowed, which would be unacceptable.

r215 borrowers paying back all they owed is not helping the US economy be robust. That would be like denying everyone stimulus checks and PPP because they can't pay it back. This concept is to provide relief to a section of Americans, if you are still making payments on student loans instead of paying it off you likely have other financial burdens preventing you from putting money into the economy.

[quote] The government should do something about the interest rates on student loans but erasing student loan debt for a current bunch of people who owe money is ridiculous. So is college free in the future for anybody who doesn't currently have student loans?

No, it’s only free for this subset of people. All future people who missed the cutoff are screwed and have to repay their full loans.

[quote] most people have between 25k and 30k of student loan debt when they enter repayment

And why couldn’t they pay this back within 5 years if they have a job?

r221 most young people enter income based repayment when they leave college; the first few years out of college will likely be spent in lower paying jobs in the field until experience is obtained; they are usually living on their own for the first time struggling with rent and other living expenses.

I remember I qualified for $0 monthly payments for the first two years after graduating college; I was employed full time but making shit money. Around year three I actually made enough to actually start making payments, five years after I started making substantial payments. And if you start graduate school then you exit repayment again.

[quote] "Most loan holders are in their 50s/early 60s" that don't seem to be supported by any links, which make me think they're troll posts.

Oh! That must be it! The person was making it up! It couldn't be that you're too lazy to Google it!

It's 2021. You have the same access to Google as everyone else. After 4 years of people arguing with each other, questioning everything, if you haven't learned to Google on your own then you're a troll or you're lost.

You have the power to do your own research.

[quote]50-to-61-year-old borrowers had the highest average student loan debt in 2021, at $43,214.16; the 24-and-younger age group owed the least, at $14,657.92 on average.

[quote]35-to-49-year-old borrowers owed the most on average in terms of total debt, at $613 billion in Q2 '21, while the 62-and-older group, at $92.7 billion, owed the least during this same period.

[quote]California had the highest student loan debt balances in total and across all age groups. Wyoming had the lowest amount in total and across all categories except for the "62-and-older" range. Comprising 14.9 million people, 25-to-34 year olds represent the largest group of borrowers in 2021.

[quote]At 19%, 35-to-54-year-old borrowers were the most likely to be in default in 2018.

The college grads who are deep in debt and don't have a job aren't getting anything from Biden by extending the deadline. They don't have the money now and won't in May.

[quote] borrowers paying back all they owed is not helping the US economy be robust.

That rationalization to excuse borrowers for reneging on their promise isn’t going to work. Whatever methods are needed for keeping the economy robust, it’s not going to include letting deadbeats cheat the system and skip out on paying their bill.

r225, unfortunately your personal feelings about do not translate into actual economics.

[quote]Biden ran on $10,000 debt cancellation. That's his promise, not hers. After a yr of campaigning on it and after one yr in office. Everyone should be familiar with that, by now. The wording is self explanatory.

Biden ran on the fact that he could beat Donald Trump. That's why most people voted for him. Politicians promise a lot of things that they can't deliver on. Didn't Trump promise to build a wall or something?

[quote]Politicians promise a lot of things that they can't deliver on.

That's what the left wing of the Democratic party doesn't understand. Biden's promises were made at a time where it was strongly believed Democrats would take both houses by storm. They didn't. 🤷‍♀️

[quote]Biden's promises were made at a time where it was strongly believed Democrats would take both houses by storm. They didn't. 🤷‍♀️

Stop being silly. No one ever believed that. They didn't either. They best they hoped for was to keep the House and for Warnock and someone else to pull through to get the senate where they are now. Stacey handed them both Ossoff and Warnock and THAT was a nail biter.

[quote]Politicians promise a lot of things that they can't deliver on. Didn't Trump promise to build a wall or something?

And plenty of people absolutely despise that as they should. You can't excuse politicians for making promises they can't follow through on "just because" other people have done that. Especially when you just had a President that spend his time telling lies as soon as he opened his mouth. People are more sensitive to that than ever.

Trump not building his "wall" hurt him. Biden not doing most of what he said will hurt him too. That is what happens when you do that.

But Biden still has plenty of time to come through on ... many things. If not this then other things he "promised."

You only have three choices: 1) Biden; 2) Republican; 3) don't vote. Why do Millennials always feel they have a myriad of options?

[quote]Trump not building his "wall" hurt him. Biden not doing most of what he said will hurt him too. That is what happens when you do that.

Sometimes broken promises hurt a President, and sometimes not. Bill Clinton ran on and promised healthcare reform. "Hillarycare" turned out to be a big disaster that went down in flames around 1994. Bill never mentioned healthcare again, and he easily won reelection in 1996.

She's right. Keep the promise. But tie it to the gazillions bailed and doled out to the wealthy. Imparting a sense of justice will prevent any backlash. Next, dole out mega to unemployed factory workers. Repeat.

Gen X here. It took FOREVER but I finally paid off my loan.

I think it’s the price of college that’s out of control. I went to a decidedly middlebrow school and kept costs down as best I could. Now this school is bloated, overbuilt, pricey and not teaching anyone anything worthwhile. I’ve tried to recruit from there and have never been presented with anyone who is knowledgeable or qualified.

These overfed institutions are contributing to this debt problem. Maybe that’s where the reform starts.

Biden's exact words were "we should forgive a minimum of $10,000/person of federal student loans, as proposed by Senator Warren and colleagues." It's in the tweet below. You can debate whether it's wise or not, but he's on record saying it, so he should follow through on it. He didn't just make a vague, off-the-cuff statement about how "we need student loan relief." He specifically said we should forgive at least $10,000 per person, and he posted it on Twitter. It shouldn't be a surprise that some people took him seriously and now want to hold him accountable for what he said.

Yes, politicians break promises, but they need to be able to justify it. (Bill Clinton *tried* to deliver health care reform, but "Hillarycare" failed.) Biden may be able to justify not keeping the promise, but he'll need a better explanation than "I didn't really mean that. I just said it to help me get elected."

[quote]Stop being silly. No one ever believed that.

Bullshit. What do you think all the whining and crying over Biden not... canceling student loan debt, enacting federal voting rights legislation, enacting climate change legislation etc is all about.

It's, quite literally, because people are angry Biden is a king.

POTUS can *not* forgive student loan debt - only Congress can.

People with student loans are pushing off buying houses and settling down. They’re pushing off marriage and starting families.

The loans are a yoke on their backs. And that affects the economy severely

[Quote] . You piss off the 70% of Americans who did not go to college by giving others a free ride

Um, those 70% are the ones getting most of the free rides

Yes R237.

My thought is with all those people who’ve committed suicide because of their student loans.

The country seemed just fine with the trillions in tax breaks the GOP gave the rich with its tax law.

Forgiving some student loans for the middle class will suddenly piss Americans off??

[Quote] Biden ran on the fact that he could beat Donald Trump. That's why most people voted for him.

People voted for Biden for a lot of reasons. Narrowing it down to one singular reason seems rather simple minded

I paid off $150 k in student loans. I worked hard for years to do it.

I would be thrilled of those after me wouldn’t have to deal with that.

Betsy DeVos stopped all the loan forgiveness promises the Dept of Education had made. People we paying their loans off with the assumption it was in the correct program, only to be told later that they were paying into the wrong program and didn’t qualify for forgiveness. Complete GOP bait and switch

[quote] Biden ran on the fact that he could beat Donald Trump. That's why most people voted for him. Politicians promise a lot of things that they can't deliver on. Didn't Trump promise to build a wall or something?

So you're saying the only promise Biden should be obligated to keep is to not be Trump? That's setting the bar pretty low.

Being the moderate party isn’t getting the Dems anywhere,

R245: Once again, the idiot you're responding to is a troll who is using that talking point to defend Joe Manchin and generally state that Biden and the Democrats should DO NOTHING because they only won because they weren't Trump. Totally unrealistic worldview and totally right wing trolling. Just punch and delete.

[quote] I paid off $150 k in student loans. I worked hard for years to do it. I would be thrilled if those after me wouldn’t have to deal with that.

And what about those after this group? Why do those after this group have to pay their student loans but this group doesn’t? What makes this group so special? So when you look back in history, it’ll say student loans were forgiven for the Millennial generation and people would wonder what was so special about this generation that this had to happen.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

She’s not a smart woman.

[quote]: Once again, the idiot you're responding to is a troll who is using that talking point to defend Joe Manchin and generally state that Biden and the Democrats should DO NOTHING because they only won because they weren't Trump. Totally unrealistic worldview and totally right wing trolling. Just punch and delete.

Hey idiot...two different posters and it figures that you don't understand the nuanced position in the Manchin thread...cause you're fucking stupid.

Saying a coalition of voters that included never Trumpers is a fact. Saying people voted for Biden because he wasn't Trump is a fact, asshole.

She's brilliant. The repubs hate her because she is the whole package. She had proven time and time again in the chamber she is quick and logical.

Is she CIA?

R249, proof that AOC is exactly right

AOC is completely logical and the oligarchs detest that. She points out how they are taking all the money and blaming poor people for their own circumstances. Listen to here on TV—not one illogical thought.

And that’s what scares the GOP, which lives only if people think illogically

[quote]Now this school is bloated, overbuilt, pricey and not teaching anyone anything worthwhile

R233, I'm an older Millennial and my University was twice as expensive when I went there than it was when my father did.

It's now twice as expensive as it was as when I went there.

The campus is also twice as big but the student population has still remained around 50K.

The administrators are still making millions and their salaries have continued to climb.

R256, which community college is that?

I remember in the early 1980s the student loan default rate was 2%. That is an extraordinarily low default rate. Mortgage defaults were higher but always considered the gold standard for low default rates.

This was about the time tuition started the skyrocket and they felt it was a good idea to give out these same student loans to every quasi-school and trade school around - level the playing field or some such reasons. Of course, that combination of higher tuition and schools which offered little in the way of real job careers (possible factoring other economic reasons) caused the default rate to also rise.

At that time, I remember pointing out how low the rate was to some young pup republican sitting next to me at a Senate hearing (probably with Biden up there) - he stated with assurance the default rate should be zero and I replied some people die, some people become disabled and can't work at all or enough to pay, etc. Things he never considered in his cossetted inexperience.

One of the big issues was all the refinancing that people got talked into that turned small loans into huge loans.

Just for the record are we talking about loans directly form the feds or are we also including federally backed student loans? The feds for too long allowed private lenders to get away with bamboozling borrowers who would default loans through chicanery so they could collect from the feds asap. That was a small scandal for a while but never seemed to go anywhere. Those private lenders got very rich off these govt backed loans.

The Direct Loan program started right during the recession, it eliminated student loans that originated from private lenders

[quote]Currently, there are 1.2 trillion dollars in principal and interest on direct loans remained outstanding (borrowed by 34.5 million individuals). At the end of 2019, there were 657 billion in outstanding Direct Loan program loans for 32.1 million recipients. The Federal Student Aid (FSA), which is responsible for managing the outstanding loan portfolio, reported that at the end of 2009 there were 1,510.3 billion dollars of loans outstanding which is spread out over 42.9 million unduplicated recipients.[14] In 10 years, the loan program experienced 230% growth in the loan portfolio and 130% growth in the loan recipients. Student loan debt in 2019 is the highest it has ever been. According to the latest loan debt statistics, student loan debt has become the second highest consumer debt category behind mortgage debt.

[quote]which community college is that?

Did the psychic you saw properly predict that you're a cunt?

Student loans, child tax credit unknowns could shock budgets in 2022

Student debt activists and some progressive Democrats strongly pushed back on the Feb. 1 date, arguing that the student debt crisis could drag down the economic recovery.

An analysis by the Roosevelt Institute indicated that more than $85 billion would leave the economy once payments resumed, according to a Dec. 8 letter sent to President Joseph Biden by two Democrats, Sen. Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts and Senate Majority Leader Charles Schumer of New York

[quote] An analysis by the Roosevelt Institute indicated that more than $85 billion would leave the economy once payments resumed

That would be good for fighting inflation. If interest rates are not going to rise, we need some other mechanism to reduce spending in the economy.

Just put it up for a vote. Put it on the ballot and ask the people if they want to cancel student loans. Not forever but for these certain students who went to college between these certain years. I guarantee you the result would be no just like when voters rejected affirmative action.

R252, you're response was ironic, right. Has to be.

It would be worth it to have a vote to cement the requirement that the debtors pay back every cent they borrowed.

The GOP loves AOC - she's so useful to them as an example of a pie-in-the-sky liberal whack-a-doo.