Joan Rivers: the complete interview

thank you, gurl

Team Carson. He made her career and she hurt him deeply by not even telling him she was leaving. Pick up a phone. She admitted that herself later on that she should have.

I think it was Edgar's influence that screwed her up. I watched a Barbara Walters interview from that era. She says she knows she'll never replace Carson because it would be too much. She was better in little doses. For some reason Edgar changed all that in her mind.

She had Vegas, was wanted to do Broadway, and like 6 weeks a year to do whatever she wanted on the Carson show. She made a mistake.

I moved her. Team Joan all the way

I know she made fun of her plastic surgery and so has others, but compared to some other questionable celebrity plastic we have been seeing lately, cough, cough Demi, Joan's surgeries were very, very good.

“He made her career and she hurt him deeply by not even telling him she was leaving.”

Don't change horses in the middle of the Rivers

OP you reply to yourself a lot

[quote]Team Carson. He made her career and she hurt him deeply by not even telling him she was leaving. Pick up a phone. She admitted that herself later on that she should have.

Yet when David Brenner did a similar thing, Carson not only forgave him but had him back on the show.

And I think "He made her career" is stretching it. He gave her a big boost to her career by giving her a platform, but Rivers ultimately made it on her own talent.

[quote]I think it was Edgar's influence that screwed her up

No, she was becoming a huge star in her own right in the early-mid 80's. Carson was starting to coast on his past reputation as he was morphing into an elder statesman of late-night TV persona who was absent as much as he was hosting. It was Rivers who was generating a lot of buzz on the nights she hosted, doing things like interviewing Boy George or giving out Victoria Principal's number on air. It was only a matter of time that she would go out on her own.

[quote] I think it was Edgar's influence that screwed her up.

Edgar was her downfall. To the end, she was loyal, never regretted acting on Edgar's advice. If she had to do it over (yes, I know she's dead), she would have done it the same way: Edgar's way.

[quote] OP you reply to yourself a lot

I love these queens who have this all mapped out. I imagine them in a giant war room like in Dr Strangelove with people ignoring and then checking posts on each thread.

All kidding aside, I get a huge kick out of it when they point something like that out.

Too bad it's a lie. This is my first response to my own post.

I just wanted to respond to #2 that in the interview she says it's not true that she neglected to tell him.

And what if she hadn't? Is he her slave master? She simply guest-hosted The Tonight Show once in a while. She didn't have to check in with him regularly about her career moves.

[quote] She simply guest-hosted The Tonight Show once in a while.

That's not entirely true, she was named the Permanent Guest Host from 1983-86. She rightfully assumed that would make her the successor, when it became clear neither NBC nor Carson was going to make it official, she she jumped ship.

Here she is right before she hit it really big in the early 80s, with Merv playing the perfect Straight Man (no comments from the peanut gallery).

What happened to the doctor who killed her? She was like the go to throat doctor for Broadway people. Is she still practicing?

I miss her. I loved how brutal she could be. Never cruel, but brutal. She called herself "Queen of the Gays!" She was DL before DL.

I guess most of you didn't bother to watch the interview or ever read or see any of the other statements she made about the end of her run with Carson.

She did call him.

He hung up on her.

She makes it clear, NBC/Carson weren't doing anything to renew her contract with them and she was then approached by Fox for her own show when she accepted.

She didn't need Johnny's permission. Not how business works.

Her interviews tend to be very dreary and self-pitying (even before Edgar's suicide).

BUT she's a comedienne and they usually have a very sad side. A question of balance.

Joan's a big cruel hypocrite. She could hold a grudge against others (but no one could hold one against her or her family).

She could call other people's kids ugly but no one could call Melissa ugly (even in a stand up routine or show).

Joan made fun of her looks (like "at this age my breasts are on the floor now" sorta thing) but when others made fun of her plastic surgery/looks or her daughters she went apeshit over it.

Carson had no sense of loyalty that others expected of him. He famously snubbed NBC's anniversary tv celebration (couldn't even show up for 5 minutes on stage & then leave early before the night was over). He had no sense of loyalty to The Tonight Show that others expected of him. Carson simply didn't see as jay Leno's legacy as an addition to his own. He gave none of his jokes for Leno to use instead giving ALL of them to Letterman on a network NOT named NBC.

Johnny comes across as an old school "man's man" & I doubt he was thrilled with Joan being picked as his perm. guest host but bit his tongue for the $$$ he needed for all of that alimony. He showed no real interest in the feminist movement but was a "liberal" democrat by Hollywood's standards. NBC probably wanted to break new ground with the show after so many male hosts & Joan was seen as a possible successor. He most likely wanted someone different than her. It's possible his repeated snubbing NBC functions & diva behavior (like noted above) gave him few favors outside of his generous time off/big bucks NBC contract.

Johnny had an ego to rival Sinatra's. He was also massively insecure and spiteful toward anyone who challenged him. I side with Joan - then and now.

[quote]I side with Joan - then and now.

I don't get that.

He gave her all her breaks and then she went right up against him with a talk show that was in direct competition with his.

Was it broadcast at the same time? I don't remember.

R19 I believe it was in some markets.

Also I think Johnny was such a control freak that if Joan's show came on before his then

he feared that many VCRs would be tuned to her show for playback

instead of watching his 11:30 PM broadcast after the NBC local news.

OP: Great video of Joan and her career. She's so good in an interview. And for all the skeptics...only a portion of the video is about Carson. There's a whole lot more to watch.

Were you even born, R19? Joan's Fox show was at the same time as Carsons, Fox had 1/100th the affiliates. It was like a start up. Would YOUR boss - one who gave you your big break - go completely batshit crazy against you if you left to work for a start up?

Here is the thing though he didn’t seem to hold it against others who tried. He didn’t ban Joey Bishop from guest hosting or appearing after he competed with him.

[quote]Were you even born, [R19]? Joan's Fox show was at the same time as Carsons

Yes, but it was about thirty five years ago so forgive me if I've forgotten the precise details. That's why I asked (I always watched her show never his. Never understood his appeal. But I didn't grow up with him. Familiarity is often the cause of popularity).

[quote]Would YOUR boss - one who gave you your big break - go completely batshit crazy against you if you left to work for a start up?

it's not the same

Johnny had his cutesy persona but was also known as a mean drunk. A string of notoriously bad marriages/divorces didn't help, and he was definitely part of the old school misogynist boys club. Joan had an uphill battle all her life.

R23 Because Carson liked Joey Bishop & David Brenner on both a personal & professional level. I bet he wanted one of those male types to replace him instead of a loudmouth controversy loving shrew. The fact that he could snub Joan & family so easily suggest that they were never in his inner circle despite what others would have us believe. I bet Doc & Ed never had to hide in public when talking to Joey or David.

He just didn't seem to like Edgar & Joan on the behind the scenes matters/stunts that they probably pulled.

I begged my mom to take me to see Joan in '86. She was hilarious. Some heckler called out "What about Johnny Carson?!" Quick as a whip she shot back "What about Johnny Carson?! He has a show and I have a show." 14 year-old me thought the heckler was rude, but she handled it like a champ.

In a way, her humor died with Edgar. She just wasn't as funny after that.

R26, Johnny was only "friends" with Joan or anyone, on the air. He was a solitary individual who didn't let anyone too close. I think his softening on Brenner and Bishop was totally a boys club thing. No broad was going to take over the Tonight Show. And btw, Joan's ratings were better than Johnny's when she guest hosted. That could have been a threat to his fragile ego.

CNN had a marathon of "The History of Comedy" last night. One episode was about blue comedy, and how the Friars Club/Dean Martin Roasts were raunchier behind closed doors than what was shown on TV. They showed a brief clip from1974 of Johnny speaking about Don Rickles, he said, "I'm friends with him, but then queers need friends". Got a huge laugh. I know it was the 70's, and the point was to be outrageous, but it still disturbed me. At least we got mentioned...as a laugh line.

Johnny's show started at 11:30, after the local news. Joan's show started at 11 p.m. (It was on the Fox network, which was just revamping itself as a competitor to the three major networks.). People who wanted to skip the local news could watch Joan's show, and if the show was good, they'd stay tuned to Fox for the entire hour, maybe turning to Johnny's show at 12, when his show was half-way through.

I don't blame Joan for doing what she had to do to advance her career. As a woman, she had to fight extra hard for her successes. She didn't do anything wrong. Johnny was an asshole. He banned her from the Tonight Show. Leno and Conan maintained that ban. It was sweet to watch her finally make an appearance on the Tonight Show after Jimmy Fallon became host. (Thats the only time I ever watched a Fallon-hosted episode of the show.)

I admire Joan, but I still think she was mean and cruel. She was obviously insecure about her looks because of the way society had treated her. But tearing down other women (and even children, such as Amy Carter and Kim Karashian's baby) for their looks only perpetuates the attitudes that caused her own suffering. Why not make fun of the old, ugly, fat, bald men who wanted to keep women in their place...you know, the actual people who suppressed Joan. Instead, she attacked other women.

[quote] I know it was the 70's, and the point was to be outrageous, but it still disturbed me.

I saw a 1969 movie on the TV recently

John Cassavetes had some line about "hustlers, drug dealers, fags and hookers..."

R30, Joan's tearing down of others part of her act only appeared around the late 1970s. Before that, she only did it to herself. I got a kick out of her Elizabeth Taylor fat jokes and all, because I was sick of hearing how flat chested Joan was. This change was a MAJOR career boost for her.

It's interesting that Carson hasn't been "reevaluated" in today's climate. I remember him telling Dolly Parton on air that he'd give up a year's salary to look under her shirt. He would also compliment other actresses' legs and other body parts and make them visibly uncomfortable.

Sally Field was asked a couple of years back about dating him, and she implied it wasn't a very pleasant experience, and almost something that she felt she was forced to do because of his power at the time.

R32, making fun of someone for being overweight is flat out bullying. It sucks to be bullied in elementary school. And it sucks to be bullied in adulthood, especially if you're middle-aged in a field that prizes youth and beauty. And imagine your bully is doing it on a TV show being watched by millions of people.

Elizabeth Taylor addressed Joan's "comedy" in her 1980s book, "Elizabeth Takes Off". She described how she ran into Joan at some event, and Joan was very friendly and tried to explain her "jokes" as a way of pushing Elizabeth to regain control of herself. Elizabeth saw the situation as: Joan was trying to take credit for Elizabeth's weightless.

Joan also said Prince Charles couldn't wait for his mother to die so he can be queen - his ears were so big he'd pickup cable TV - Princess Diana poor bitch married a gay guy....

Some years later they were palsy enough she was invited to his wedding.

I'm a bit on the fence. Comedians should go up to the line, maybe even cross it. They hold a mirror to society. And there is the reality of being a product of their times. Some of my favorites have gotten into trouble (Kathy Griffin). Even John Waters has spoken of "Make Trouble", and I love him. It's a balancing act.

I miss her best and worst dressed show about the oscars.

[quote] but compared to some other questionable celebrity plastic we have been seeing lately, cough, cough Demi, Joan's surgeries were very, very good.

No. According to no possible comparison could this ever be called "very, very good" plastic surgery. You are calling the grass blue and the sky green.

R35, Charles was relentlessly bullied as a child by his father and his schoolmates. Then, as an adult, Charles found himself being bullied by a woman who was several years older than himself, delivering schoolyard-type taunts in very public ways. Later, Charles and Joan became friendly. I don't think they ever had much in common. He tolerated her as a distant friend just so she would shut up about him (and Camilla) in public. That's all Joan ever really wanted anyway...to be validated by "friendship" (even shallow and forced) with people in high places.

Oh please, R34, this was Elizabeth Taylor, THE Elizabeth Taylor. Granted, her boozing and pill popping didn't help her slothy appearance in the 1970s, and the ribbing made her uncomfortable. But it's nothing like little joe nerd getting it in middle school.

Joan also punched up, not down. She made fun of Be Derek's intelligence, but also called her "The most beautiful women in the world". And she made fun of The Royal Family, "The richest people in the world".

IMO, she was not funny as a stand-up comedian. She was also not funny on Fashion Police, IMO.

She was, however, a good interviewer and could fade into the background when necessary to let the subject shine and be interesting.

I disagree. "Call FEMA, this is a disaster" and "If Jim Henson did clothes" made me laugh.

[quote] Joan's surgeries were very, very good.

Oh for fuck's sake she looked like an alien.

She called AFTER the deal. It was like a restaurateur taking someone under their wing, letting them run the place while your gone, trusting them and they call saying they are opening up a place across the street and the lease is already signed.

Whore Pit Viper!

From Johnny’s executive producer:

Joan's nighttime talk show wasn't very good. She was trying too hard (perhaps a pipe dream of beating Johnny in the ratings?). But she was never able to re-capture the magic of subbing for him on The Tonight Show.

I agree, R47. I blame EDGAR for everything, word was he was a hellion.

[quote] It was sweet to watch her finally make an appearance on the Tonight Show after Jimmy Fallon became host. (Thats the only time I ever watched a Fallon-hosted episode of the show.)

That is the only full episode I've watched as well.

Thanks for posting that R46.

Who would've guessed little Joannie Rivers was really a sneaky lying manipulative money grubbing republican?

Not me!

Has Melissa achieved anything at all without her Mother's name attached?. She couldn't even get booked on "The Apprentice" without her.

Melissa Rosenberg Rivers' job is being Melissa Rivers. She almost 54 and doesn't have to work.

Obviously, Joan was an ambitious bitch but Peter Lassally is also full of crap....his bullshit about not liking Joan's crass material and "same sex" jokes while prefering Garry Shandling and implying Garry was their main choice to be the guest host just sounds like misogyny and sour grapes.

Shandling was popular but NEVER in the same league as Joan who had a hit album and sold out tours across the country. Does anyone today even remember fucking Garry Shandling?

Yeah, I was going to say Peter Lassally didn't come off too well in that interview and confirmed to me that sexism was at play with the whole Johnny vs. Joan debacle.

I loved this interview and made me realize I never quite appreciated Joan enough during her lifetime. A smart COMPLICATED lady.

The funny thing is, I used to think all of her plastic surgery was so grotesque but watching this now, it doesn't seem so extreme, which I think goes to show how inured I (or we?) have become to extreme plastic surgery.

[quote] The funny thing is, I used to think all of her plastic surgery was so grotesque but watching this now, it doesn't seem so extreme, which I think goes to show how inured I (or we?) have become to extreme plastic surgery.

Don't speak for any of the rest of us. That's ALL on you.

I think she looks like a severe burn victim ten years after the fire.

R54 completely agree. Also the timeline doesn’t add up. Shandling’s show didn’t start until ‘86 or ‘87, and Rivers was long gone by then. She became perm host well before his show would have started production.

R53 Shandling was one of the greatest stand-up comedians of all time. He created and starred in two of the greatest TV shows of all time. Whatever you think of him, his legacy is something more substantial than “That fatso is wearing a baseball tarp!”-type comments on the red carpet. I liked Joan and thought she was fine, but she’s not in his league.

Wow. Gerry is STILL paying a publicist from beyond the grave!!!!

I'll always remember Garly Shanford as that guy from that thing.

[quote] …Johnny Carson was a genius, but a mean man…

I doubt he could be called a genius. He was cute 60 years ago but he was mean.

I watched this video to appreciate how charming and and physically appealing Sally An Howes used to be but was struck that Carson did nothing but mock her.

Carson was typical of men of his age = ASSHOLE

She could dish ‘em, but sure couldn’t take ‘em.

She heard they were removing her from the list of substitute hosts (without telling her, of course). So there's that.

R63 that’s not really true. About her daughter, sure ( - but who isn’t protective of their daughter, especially an only child with a single parent?

Carson had a great, laid back interviewing style but comedically he certainly wasn’t in any way remarkable. And he screwed her over - even though she was basically the face of the Tonight Show in the 80s - so why should she have stayed?

Great interview, btw. When she wasn’t “on,” you can see how intelligent and sharp she really was.

and she hardly trashes everyone. She has high praise for many, and still credits Carson for jump starting her career. Shes just giving her honest experiences with people - her take on Lucy was especially interesting IMO.