Betty Buckley about Sondheim's death

Betty Buckley = hardcore PRIMADONA!!!

You sabotaged you career, dear. Get over it. And put in your teeth the next time you're interviewed!

[quote] PRIMADONA

?

She also was in heavy negotiations to headline the Broadway version of Blood Brothers. (not the version that got to Bway with the British cast but an American cast like 3 years prior.)

Instead she did Stardust a concert musical that never got to NYC.

I read in the book about the Barbizon Hotel, that Betty arrived in NYC at Grand Central Station, headed north to the hotel to drop off her luggage and then went off for a walk in the theater district. She saw an open down with a casting call notice and auditions being held right there. She walked in, cold auditioned and got the role in the original cast of 1776. I think she always expects it to be that easy, and that much in her favor.

[quote]What did she want that they wouldn't give her?

Her dressing room rider included...

Only red M&Ms.

BBQ Hot Pockets

A chilled 6pk of Mr. Pibb.

An advanced copy of The National Enquirer.

and

A year's supply of Rice-Roni, the San Francisco treat!

What was the San Diego treat, and why is no one excited about that? Or San Jose for that matter?

Buckley was deep in negotiations for doing the movie version of MAME, but they broke down and then, famously, Gary did not talk Lucy out of it.

And there went Buckley's only shot at an Oscar.

"I'll never forget when Steve, that wonderful man, took me aside and said, "I wrote this for you" and played "Rose's Turn." He meant the lyrics, of course, but I wept and expressed my deep, deep thanks. But I was only twelve so Merman stole it from me, as the negotiations broke down over the braces on my teeth.

I starting to think Betty’s memoir will be called “The Negotiations Broke Down: My Greatest Almost Roles” by Betty Buckley.

I imagine Betty wanted her name above the title. As Into The Woods evolved, it was obvious it was an ensemble show so the producers probably wouldn't give her sole above the title credit.

Is this the same Stephen Sondheim that wrote original songs for me?

'The negotiations broke down.' Translation-not enough money.

“Don’t people understand, I played the lead cat in Cats!”

Has Betty Lynn come out yet?

She says she's straight.

Those final notes of He Plays the Violin are among the most unpleasant on an obc.

r4 actually the story is that she got an agent thru the Miss America pageant (yes Betty was a pageant girl!) She didn't win Miss Texas but did really well in the talent part. They invited a lot of the high talent scorers to Atlantic City (this was when the show was a whole week of various shows.) She wowed some agency and they offered to sign her. Her father was opposed so she finished college to appease him. The agency said they'd wait for her.

Then she got to NY a few years later, went to the agency as soon as she arrived and they sent her over to the 1776 audition which she got. Nothing has ever been that easy since she has noted. She has said she was so green that she didn't even know how to dress for NYC weather. Howard da Silva told her Betty you have to layer your clothes. A sweater under the coat etc.

Betty did an exqusite recording of "Stay With Me" in a medley with "Children and Art." Can't find it on youtube.

Wasn’t Betty a bit of a cougar for younger men, R14?

Betty was the best Norma Desmond after Gloria.

Broadway honors Sondheim. Look who is front and center of course.

Singing a song no one has ever heard.

I follow her on Scruff - erm, Instagram and she's been going on about Sondheim for a couple of days.

And everybody knows I was really his favorite. Well, after Jonny fuckin' Bailey.

I know several people who ha e worked with Betty and they all loved her BUT every one of them has a story about how self centered she can be at times.

[quote]every one of them has a story about how self centered she can be at times.

She's an actress for Christ's sake, they all are.

Knowing...

Betty B did the workshop of "Tales of the City" and was signed to open the show in San Francisco (as Mrs. what's her name, the Olympia Dukakis part). Not long before rehearsals were to start, she gave them a list of dates she needed off for concerts, including in the previews (there was only a week of them). The producers refused and called Judy Kaye, who did the show and got great reviews.

And the show died.

Clearly Buckley knew it would and got out of it.

Here's my favorite Betty Lynn story, from an old thread:

[quote]I had a friend who was a company manager at a regional arts center. She said her most bizarre encounter with a star was Buckley. She apparently was insistent on being driven to a local CVS so she could buy some makeup before her evening gig. Standing in one aisle was a Sarah Michelle Gellar cutout, and when Buckley saw it, she took a Sharpie out of her purse and drew a mustache on it!

^ That is fucking hilarious.

Did they work together?

Per the other thread, r32:

[quote]Betty was also escorted off the soundstage and fired during production of SIMPLY IRRESISTIBLE, starring Sarah Michelle Gellar. Her role was curtailed with most of her dialogue assigned to another character. And in the footage she does appear in she looks like shit because the dp, the make-up and hair departments loathed her.

She answers almost every tweet directed at her. Even ones that simply mention her name without @ing her- she must sit there and search her name constantly. It's kinda cool.

She sounds like a thoroughly unlikeable person yet she was great in Sunset. I guess if I saw her on the street and told her that her performance was tremendous she'd bite my head off.

I've met her a couple of times, r34. She was always gracious when interacting with fans.

Has Liza Minnelli issued any statement about Stephen Sondheims death?

He wasn't a fan

SSS: Will we be hearing much Sondheim material at your upcoming concert at the Carlyle?

Betty Buckley: Probably not. He doesn't like my arrangements and he let me know that when I was in London, which was heartbreaking because it was one of the biggest, one of the most shocking moments of my life. I'd sent him a couple of my CDs because we recorded a lot of his songs and he came backstage and congratulated me and I could tell that he seemed kind of uncomfortable and I said, "Mr. Sondheim, I sent you my CDs and you never responded." He said, "Well I wouldn't have brought it up but since you did, I'll tell you: I don't like what you've done with my songs." And I was just heartbroken. It was shattering to me. And he had some theories as to why I had arranged them that way and I said, "I honestly have been only inspired and only, completely...." I had no words to tell him how much I love his work. I can't even put it into language, how meaningful it is to me and how important his work has been for me.

That story makes me sad for Betty Lynn, r38

It shouldn’t, r39. The arrangements do no favors to Sondheim or Buckley.

Do you mean her albums Children Will Listen and With One Look r40?

Betty and one of her boys.

She should have won an academy award for playing the psychologist in Split. They should make that trilogy a musical.

During the early days of Facebook.......the pianist Paul Ford wrote a jaw dropping memory of Into the Woods w/ Betty's bad behavior during workshop. It was hilarious and horrifying.......and then Paul removed it within 24 hours on the advice of friends. I so wish I could read it again.

Do you remember highlights r44?

[quote]Has Liza Minnelli issued any statement about Stephen Sondheims death?

With that many Ss, she's schtill on hisch firscht name.

alas, no!......

[quote]She says she's straight.

We called her Betty Bothways.

[quote]Singing a song no one has ever heard.

Idiot.

I think her voice and performance and air boarder on offensive. Her overwrought self absorption rivals Mandy P. She can sing a song in tune and cohesively but the net effect is a cat whose tail has been run over well orchestrated.

She admits to having a bad attitude in her younger days. She seems to work hard to be nice nowadays.

She filled the huge Paper Mill Playhouse in "Gypsy" every performance. Sondheim came, he came to anything if the check cleared and he refused to bring to Broadway.

No it was Arthur Laurents who told her she was great but she's crazy if she thinks she's bringing this to Broadway.

The old codger could only hope everyone who sang his songs sounded this good. Debbie Gibson was Louise.

She was very hurt by Laurents. I believe he told her she was the worst Rose he'd ever seen. She recently tweeted it was cruel and devastating.

It's amusing how she oft times tweets nice, supportive stuff to Patti LuPone. Patti ignores her.

Why does Patti ignore her?

Her Rose feels a lot like her Norma.

[quote]Why does Patti ignore her?

It rhymes with shunt.

Patti was so bitchy to her (and everyone frankly)

She once tweeted calling her a broke down diva because Buckley tells the story of how Meadowlark was written for her and then she spent years complaining to her therapist that she didn't get the role.

Lupone thinks it is one of her signature songs. Stupid since she didn't originate it. Carole Demas did.

I think Buckley's graciousness to Lupone is part of her new spritual path where she tries to be nicer to people. (in her mind I'm sure she hates LuPone and probably enjoyed her Sunset firing and taking over for her)

I've seen photos of her backstage with LuPone at War Paint.

(She also saw Close in Sunset on the same trip and posed with her and marveled that Close could still do the role saying the stairs alone would negate her playing the role now.)

This is the best thread I’ve read in a while.

I saw an interview about Sunset with her on youtube. She describes how wonderful London was but then when she got to NYC there were so many naysayers that she wasn't a big enough name to keep the show running. (It had become The Glenn Close Show by then. Questionable if anyone Miss Dunaway even could have made it profitable.)

I like how she said that she had tried to get the role originally but Patti got it and had (awkward pause) "her experience with it." Nicely omitting that LuPone was fired and near suicide so she says. Although would a narcissist like Patti ever kill themselves?

Was all that face grimacing as if she was constipated Debbie’s version of acting in that clip?

[Quote]He then played "Stay With Me" and I wept

Doesn't she always? She's an epic cunt who believes she's a sensitive artiste and human being. Nasty.

On another note I tried 3 times to see her in SB in London in the 90s but she was always "ill". Finally I bitched to two gay ushers standing by the bix office "WTF, is she a drug addict?". They fell out laughing which said it all.

Ultimately she's responsible for her Broadway career not being up to the level of Bernadette, Patti and Christine. But she's certainly had fine moments.

Laurents may have been right.

Betty missed an opportunity right off the bat in the clip at R54.

Besides being entirely humorless, Buckley fails to incorporate the fact that up until this moment, Louise has been nothing but an afterthought.

The lyrics “I had a dream, a dream about you (Louise) baby” is her bullshitting on the fly - a Hail Mary pass, but you’d never know it from Betty’s performance there.

Betty was also all wrong when I saw her in the LA production of Grey Gardens.

There are some things she is just incapable of fathoming, so she covers it up with pathos and a belt.

She must have been riveting in Carrie. That youtube of And Eve Was Weak is just awesome.

R56 She ignores everybody. Never tweets @ anyone, and never responds. But like Betty will @ her, "Congratulations" on whatever, and no response. I guess Patti may not see it.

Betty's Witch---

[quote]She was very hurt by Laurents. I believe he told her she was the worst Rose he'd ever seen.

What I heard is that after Laurents saw Buckley's performance and she asked him what he thought, he told her. "You were execrable."

R69 You really have to be a sociopath to say that to someone who worked for months on a thing. He certainly could've found a better way to let he know he didn't care for it.

I realize Betty was difficult at times, but I do feel badly for her. She was at the 1992 Sondheim concert (I was there!) but not invited to the 80th Birthday Celebration. She was one of the big Broadway actresses of the '80s, but no one seems to put her up there with Patti and Bernadette anymore.

But, the sad fact is she's simply lost her voice. She's no longer able to sing. And that must be tough for her. She does seem very nice on Twitter, and she goes out of her way to engage with fans, and always thank them for compliments.

She did the national tour of Bette Midler's version of Hello Dolly. She must be able to still sing. Maybe not at her peak but her peak was pretty astounding and that kind of power goes away with age. (see Streisand, Barbra.)

R71 Did you see it, R71? She can carry a tune, sure. But compared to what she used to be able to do, it's pretty sad to hear.

[quote]Wasn’t Betty a bit of a cougar for younger men, [R14]?

Yes, when I was twenty-one Betty slipped me her phone number at a restaurant when her date was in the men's room. Her date was also my age which is about fifteen years younger than Betty. I'm gay and wasn't amused so I never called. She's not gay.

Why is she calling the pre-Broadway tryout of "Into the Woods" a "workshop"? Was it a workshop? I thought it was the Broadway warm up run. Maybe I'm mistaken? Anyway, Betty was a huge pain in the ass, she got fired from many jobs.

R73 I KNEW I admired her!

There are some young people in the YouTube comments section of the video I posted at R72. There are many comments from people who saw her in the role and LOVED her in it and want to know why she wasn't on Broadway. This makes me feel melancholy too, for some reason. She brought that show to many cities in this country, and if people had that reaction, who am I to be critical of her voice? She did something to move those people, it seems.

BTW, she tweeted all during the Hello Dolly tour. She never said it, but you could tell after a few months she was kinda over it, and looking forward to going home.

I think Scott Rudin just offered her the role for the tour straight away. No audition or anything.

R72. I wonder where that wss filmed. I saw Dolly during that tour and Betty was sick. One could see her wiping her nose and stashing kleenex round the set, but we enjoyed her performance. Perhaps this was just a bad night?

It may be Betty's assistant handles her twitter messages. She does everything else. In fact they live together.

R75 I don't think it's her assistant. Usually when it's an assistant, tweets are not as frequent, and more general and benign. Betty tweets constantly, all day about politics (no Trump fan, she) and responding to fans. She may dictate them or something, but I'd bet they come from her.

I once made the rookie error of referring to her Carrie character as Miss Desjardins (the character's name in the book.) Within two minutes, she corrected me. "Miss Collins" she wrote, with a little heart next to it.

This is a great thread.

Betty had an affair with Gil Gerard that broke up his marriage.

[quote]She can carry a tune, sure. But compared to what she used to be able to do, it's pretty sad to hear.

Even now she sounds better than Carol Channing, Ethel Merman, Betty Grable, Phyllis Diller and all the old work horses who played on Dolly Broadway in the original run.

[quote]Betty had an affair with Gil Gerard that broke up his marriage.

Any man who wears gold lamé pants should expect his marriage to break up.

I am woefully unfamiliar with her stage career. But I LOVE her in the Woody Allen movie 'Another Woman.' In a way it's the perfect role for her... shall we say 'abrasive' persona. She only has one scene in the entire movie (where she basically gatecrashes a party to scream about her cancer before being kicked out lol), but she is completely riveting and in about 2 minutes of total screentime almost steals the whole thing (not easy in a movie that features Gena Rowlands, Mia Farrow, Gene Hackman, Sandy Dennis, Frances Conroy, Blythe Danner, Ian Holm, Martha Plimpton, etc). I wouldn't have minded if she got an Oscar nom a la Beatrice Straight in 'Network' but it's a shorter 'one-scene-wonder' and I don't think the film was a big commercial success.

She was great in Tender Mercies, as I recall.

R79 I don't know about the others, but I've heard Merman do it and she was fantastic. Again, La Buckley can carry a tune, but her voice is greatly diminished from what it used to be. She was arguably the best belter on Broadway for a time. I'm not tryna rag on her. I just find it sad, and it must be a tough thing to deal with.

This is the only Buckley "Gypsy" recording I've heard

R42, I recall reading somewhere years ago that she was the great love of Grayson McCouch’s life, but dumped him, which broke his heart.

We'd catch her around the sets of Eight is Enough singing showtunes.

Adam Rich kicked her in the cuntbone. Dick Van Patten spit in her coffee.

Then again, Dick Van Patten spit in everyone's coffee.

Hardly makes me unique.

Was she in The Mystery of Drood, I feel like I saw her in that? I saw a production of 1776 in Philadelphia the summer on 1976 at a special pavilion near the Liberty Bell, and I remember Williams Daniels being in it and someone prominent playing Franklin, maybe a Lahr, but I don’t know if she was in it.

R27 that Tales of the City musical was dead on arrival. I saw that bit of shit.

"Almost: A Life," as told by Betty Buckley

Don't give her any ideas, r90

Actually, given her Twitter activity, I'd bet dollars to donuts she has "Google Alerted" herself ... she's probably reading this thread.

She stole Another Woman with a mere 5 minutes of screen time. The rawness in her performance was uncomfortable and heartbreaking. That Papermill Gypsy was awful. Not just Betty but the entire production. Laurents was a cunt but he was right not to give the ok to move it. Her Performance as Norma was fragile and her vocals were haunting. Humorless, yes but she gave a beautiful performance every time I saw her.

It's interesting how folks here seem to rag on Betty for the missed opportunities. All actors have them. And the reality is she really was THE voice of Broadway.

I would pay very good money right now to be able to hear her sing live as she once could. I'd sit through any show or concert...but that can't happen. Nobody tore into songs like her. She might have been difficult but name me someone else who could sing that Tony Awards performance of Memory like that...I'll wait. It was shattering. Same with Eve Was Weak. No one did it better. Same with her Norma.

So she couldn't do comedy as well....so what?

If she fought for better pay, good for her. She's something special. Actors ALWAYS have to advocate for themselves. Most overlook their own worth or end up getting very little. She was a knockout performer and should have asked for big bucks and credit.

Heck, I recently saw an interview where she explained how after singing Memory 3 or 4 different ways for Trevor N, she concluded the audition by just telling him, "look, I know you've auditioned eveyone for this, and I know my peer group...no one is going to do this better than me...and this is MY TIME." And he was stunned by her saying that, and the house manager patted her on the back afterwards for pitching herself so directly.

...and she was right! Memory was huge because of her. It's a great song but she made it spine-tingling. But of course...you say shit like that to a major director and you probably get a reputation immediately.

They all want knockout actresses who are meek and won't challenge them. You speak up, they talk shit about you.

Of course, I do suspect she's a little wonky. The huge talent, the beauty pageant looks, the therapy, the weird new age arrangements of her songs in cabaret (seriously, Sondheim was right!), her way of speaking...her preference for being with animals...there's stuff going on there.

I mean, her best roles were playing heartbreaking disillusioned diva nightmares - Norma, Griz, Margaret - so yeah. I think her ability to connect with them like that is telling.

On the other hand, she seemed to respect her costars. Lindsay Hately loved the way she stepped up to care for her and guide her through the Carrie experience. I seem to recall something about the cast of Drood being taken out for lunch by her back in the day.

She's probably an artsy type who tries to conpensate for any dramatic/intense attitude by being loving in other ways.

Mostly I think y'all are just bitter she didn't get more shows like Bernie and Patti did. And I agree. But even if her singing days are gone, damn.....she left a legacy as one of the best.

And bedding McCouch? Seriously? 🙏

Hi Betty r93!

LOL, I wish!

(Grayson is fiiiiiine as hellllll, christ almighty)

I watch this with mixed reaction. The singing is great. The audience response makes me wish I'd heard it live. Subtly breaking the fourth wall at the end with the kiss and the smile feels a little self-indulgent and yet works at the same time.

Thanks r96!

There's several BB's on Youtube from Sunset. She's so awesome. I love her take on Norma's mad speech because it's very soft, very muted... total contrast to how anybody else does it... So often you get the "And now, Mr. DeMille" big and bold it gets a laugh. Buckley's doesn't. Norma is quite pathetic in that moment, but you don't scorn her. The line starts around the 7:50

[quote]She was one of the big Broadway actresses of the '80s

And yet, r70, she only originated one actual lead role on Broadway in the '80s.

She can certainly sing. She's touring again. She just won't sing as in her prime.

I agree. Terrible singer.

I actually detest the vibrato in her voice. She gurgles her way through songs

Violin

R103, she's big and she's brassy!!

[quote]She can certainly sing. She's touring again. She just won't sing as in her prime.

Some of my favorite performances of hers are non-Broadway songs. I love her renditions of Mary Chapin Carpenter's "I Am a Town" and Lisa Loeb's "Falling in Love," for example -- neither of which require any belting. She'll do fine touring.

This is my favorite Buckley tune

[quote] I don't know about the others, but I've heard Merman do it and she was fantastic.

Merman was a one note trumpet.

Merman was brassy, Betty is steely.

Betty is steel.

I had a real MARY moment during a performance of Sunset when at the end of With One Look she didn’t sing ‘I’ll be Maaaahhhh’ as she had been doing but instead ended it with ‘I’ll be MEEEEEEEE.’ The audience went nuts.

[quote]Merman was a one note trumpet.

Tuba, surely.

Her voice's steeliness is tempered by a certain melancholy. I'd argue that her Memory works the best because of it and I think she was the most human Norma. It probably didn't help her Rose, particularly if she was playing the book scenes in downer mode.

Buckley was the performance Glenn could never deliver.

Speaking of Glenn, is the Sunset Boulevard movie really happening?

I think it's playing out in real time.

Gabbing with Ernie...

Yes, the move out of NYC seems to have mellowed her.

Another project that was supposed to be BLB, but sadly *sniff* it wasn't: Best Little Whorehouse Goes Public. They called Dee Hoty to quickly fill in on the workshop? reading? and then decided to keep her. Hoty herself has told the tale publicly.

Ummm, r117....BLB dodged a bullet with that one. Who needs another flop on their resume?

I imagine Betty has to pay for it these days.

Saw the original cast of "Whorehouse" many times when going to Saturday a matinee was affordable. Had zero interest in seeing the sequel, you could smell the flopsweat on 46th Street

Well if any role is a one note trumpet it's Rose in Gypsy.

It was between Betty and Ann Reinking for the part of Joan in "Goodtime Charley." The authors wanted Betty, especially because of how she sang the songs. But Reinking had one of the backers in her corner. After several months, they asked Betty and Ann back for one last callback. Betty went, even though it was clear to her that Reinking was going to get it. She sang "One Little Year" and "To Make the Boy A Man." Grossman and Hackady were effusive with her in their praise for how she delivered their songs. Betty turned to them as she was leaving and said "I hope you enjoyed it, because that's the last time you're going to hear those songs sung like that"

And of course, she was right. Reinking surprised everyone with her excellent acting as Joan, and her singing could get by, but the songs had been written for a real singer, and she couldn't match that.

Somewhere on YouTube there's a tape of one of the New Haven tryout performances of 1776. Betty sings a very different version of "He Plays the Violin" - completely different orchestration, and the song is almost totally different. There's also the only little bit that exists of "Increase and Multiply," which was the whorehouse number that was cut on the road (along with the whores). Plus Betty singing "Compliments," which she sang in the show but didn't make it onto the OBC (though it is on the film soundtrack).

They do sound like Betty songs, r122.

There's another version of what Sondheim told her when she cornered him and demanded to know what he thought of her CDs. (See r38.) Allegedly he gave her a critique of what he didn't like and finished by telling her never to sing his music again.

I doubt that, but he was right about the arrangements.

I'm sorry I started this thread. I didn't want it to turn into Betty bashing. I hope she isn't reading this. Many people love your music Betty Lynn. And she's a great actress too.

She did make Memory into a classic. Nobody before or since has brought such dimension and acting skill to the role.

Love you Betty!!!!

Betty, pay us no mind. To quote Sharon Tate from Valley of the Dolls, "you know how bitchy fags can be."

Betty, why you so mean, gurl?

Well, r127, say what you will about her career course, but it's still one to be envied. She's firmly in the Broadway history books.

Her last time originating a role in a Broadway musical was 1998 have Bernadette or Patti created many roles since then?

She was pretty brave to go into Carrie after it bombed in Stratford.

Seth Rudetsky had the cast on his youtube show and they all seemed to like her. Linzi has always been complimentary but Charlotte d'Amboise tells Betty that her Margaret was the greatest performance she ever saw in a musical.

She went in as a favor to the authors who told her the show would never get to NY without her. (She was friends with Gore from Pippin and the book writer from the Carrie film.)

To go so full out in a show that you know is in serious trouble really shows her commitment to her work. (and she seems to have been the reason the show lived on in infamy. Seeing it revised and reworked there is nothing special about it and the casts made little impact.) Buckley's clips are awesome.

She had a very "mean" military father who didn't want her in showbiz (or her brother.) Her childhood sounds like The Great Santini.

She has spoken about how she had kind of a haughty attitude when she was younger. With the help of a voice teacher and therapist she learned that her attitude was I'll get you before you get me. I think her clashes with powerful man stemmed from her father. (she says that too. Her Grizabella walk and stoop in her posture came out of imagining how much her father disapproved of her being an actress. She pictured carrying around his anger in a bag on her shoulders.

Even some of her other clashes seemed to come when she felt people weren't appreciating her hard work. On that making of Carrie podcast her understudy in Carrie talks about how she'd sit in on Buckley's rehearsals with the director and staff. The woman would knit and fiddle with her yarn and stuff. Betty had enough and said you can stay if you are going to watch my rehearsals to come up with your own performance but if you are going to just be a distraction you have to leave.

The woman felt stung by being scolded but said she grew to see Betty's point and they reconnected when facebook started and are now friends.

LOVED her in Tender Mercies. A great film, too.

She was perfection in Drood.

Tender Mercies

R132, it was not Michael Gore she knew from PIPPIN, it was Dean Pitchford.

oops sorry r137. That's right.

Betty did Pippin for three years. Long time. Who were her Pippins? Rubinstein, Pitchford, others?

R131 La LuPone did War Paint, and Women on the Verge. And a couple of Mamet plays.

R138 Michael Rupert was opposite Betty in "Pippin" for quite some time.

[quote]She had a very "mean" military father

This explains a lot

[quote]I doubt that, but he was right about the arrangements.

Maybe he thought they were too "Pop". He had only one true song that was a pop hit and that was Judy Collins "Send In The Clowns". Even the songs he wrote for Madonna in "Dick Tracy" weren't pop hits even though one won an Oscar and were featured on Madonna's hit soundtrack album.. "Vogue" took all the glory.

Audrey Lavine...Betty's Carrie standby

Betty would have been great in Goodtime Charley but Ann was so otherworldly and never sounded better. I think it’s the best performance she’s ever given.

Did she dance, r144?

If Patti's our Merman and Bernadette's our Martin, is Betty our Gray? They both got shows early in their careers that garnered a Tony and a signature song.

It wounds that Susan Dey hadn’t issued a statement yet.

R145. Minimal dancing from both leads. I think they added Born Lover for Grey after the tryout because critics complained about the lack of dancing.

[Quote] If Patti's our Merman and Bernadette's our Martin, is Betty our Gray? They both got shows early in their careers that garnered a Tony and a signature song.

Well, Dolores was a protege of Mary Martin's. Martin hooked Gray up with Rodgers & Hammerstein for "Green Grow the Lilacs" but she has the wrong voice type for Laurey.

[quote]Martin hooked Gray up with Rodgers & Hammerstein

Pics please.

Kind of amazing she passed on so many career defining roles but said yes to that awful play at Dodger Stages a few years ago with Peter Scolari.

In her prime, she had a voice like no one else. As others have said, there was a steeliness and a melancholy to it that really made her stand out.

Yes, she's godawful at comedy and comes across as very cold on stage at times. This is why her Rose was such a misfire. With the way that character is written, you really need an actress who can access some natural charm and comic chops to soften her up occasionally and remind the audiences that she's not just a one-note steamroller. Betty decided to play her as almost depressed and suicidal. It wasn't moving, scary, or disturbing. Just sort of sad and low energy. It worked for Norma Desmond, but not for Rose.

Sondheim was right to critique her jazzy versions of his songs. She and her arranger got them so far from the original songs that they might as well have named them something else on the album.

I usually think she comes across better on film than on stage. She has more warmth on film. Her scene in Another Woman is pretty spectacular and she's really lovely in Carrie.

I can't imagine that if Sondheim desperately wanted Buckley's Gypsy to transfer that he couldn't have made it happen. I suspect he just let Laurents be the asshole.

Another Woman

Is this a good example of her Sondheim interpretations?

Betty Buckley on CBS Sunday Morning Interview

Or this:

(Not many of her studio recordings are available on YouTube)

She was excellent as Grizabella and Norma but her Sondheim recordings are bit weird. Met her few times, she was very lovely.

[quote]I suspect he just let Laurents be the asshole.

Probably because it came so naturally to Laurents.

[quote]This is why her Rose was such a misfire.

Stop putting all the blame on her. It was a first class Equity production and there was a director. In the real world actors don't just wing it on stage. A director guides the performance and obviously her choices were approved. There is no telling how good she could have been with a different director.

Beauty pageant looks?

Betty also played Rose in Austin, Texas (1992). She gave the same subdued/depressed performance.

Like we needed yet another Gypsy revival on Bway

Was that the same as the Arizona production, r162?

My mistake, r164. Arizona, not Austin. There's a full length video bootleg out there.

One of the big reasons Ann didn’t dance in Goodtime Charley was because of her accident on her final night in Over Here. The whole Goodtime Charley production was delayed by two or three months to allow her time to heal.

“Born Lover” replaced “All She Can Do Is Say No,” toward the end of the Philadelphia part of the tryout.

[quote] The woman felt stung by being scolded but said she grew to see Betty's point

Betty’s point was the only point. That woman was hired to be the understudy and was at the rehearsal to learn the part, not to do her crocheting.

Did Janet ever go on?

I always thought she had big lesbian energy.

Didn't she have a female partner at one point? Maybe I'm misremembering.

It is a shame she never did Gypsy on Bway. She certainly had the pipes and acting ability. She needed a good director and production

It is obvious that the director of Gypsy was bad or didn't have the strength to work with her. Was he or she scared of her?

The arrangements of the Sondheim songs are fighting her every step of the way. What was she thinking?

Rose got what she wanted through wily charm. Any darkness to the role shouldn't begin until Roses.

R172, and despite being a DL punching bag, Patti Lupone's Mama Rose unfolded exactly that way

I always remember that line from Forbidden Broadway, about LuPone's Rose: like a bulldozer picking up speed. That's how I imagined Merman's Rose. LuPone's was more... wily, in addition to the brashness.

Iirc, she was coked up here:

R157

Oh my God, I can't even listen to that. I just want to slam on the keys. What indulgent, nonsensical accompaniment....dude PLAY THE FUCKING SONG.

It's like he's trying to make her forget the melody...

r176 = the ghost of Sondheim

R177 now that is a compliment I can humbly accept with gratitude!

She's a cunt.

Really? What about "Don't laugh! Don't you dare laugh!"

[Quote] Rose got what she wanted through wily charm. Any darkness to the role shouldn't begin until Roses.

Really? What about "Don't laugh! Don't you dare laugh!"

Gin and regrets.

I've always wondered that too r168.

She did miss a lot of performances in her Cats run. As a kid I we had a relative who lived right near the theater that we'd see every week practically. I was fascinated by the understudies and who was in and out of shows so I'd always quickly run over and poke my head in the door to see who was out. Buckley was out a bunch of times that I know of (I was so happy she was in when I saw it.)

Hubert got the lead in the touring company of Sophisticated Ladies and was one of the first to leave the show (Apr. 1983 according to ibdb.) I didn't start my checking until the fall of 1983 and by that time Diane Fratantoni was the understudy. I think she had been added as a second understudy while Hubert was still there. I'd guess Betty missed some performances from the opening thru that April but I don't know when Fratantoni became the go to understudy.

I tried to ask Hubert on twitter and she didn't answer. I did read an interview with a lot of people who were in the show at various times including Hubert and she never mentions being the understudy so maybe they took that away from her. Fratantoni had a strong voice. Hubert sounds a bit thin on her moment singing a bit of Memory on the OBC. Now I'm thinking she may never have gone on since she had no story to tell in the interview. (she loved being in the show btw no drama from her.) Her early departure always made me think there was some controversy but recently I noticed that she got a lead role and took that.

They did seem to change up the solos a bit post opening and the recording. The White Cat (Cynthia Onrubia) sang the other part of Memory with Buckley originally but then they switched it to Whitney Kershaw as Sillabub who sang it on the Tonys and sounds stronger than Onrubia. I think they kept it that way from then on so that the white cat they could just cast with the best dancer they could find and not have to worry if she could sing strong enough to pair up with Buckley.

Onrubia was known to be pretty fantastic as a dancer. In that Seth R. show Charlotte d'Amoise describes her final call back. She said when Onrubia walked into the room she knew she was done. (they did hire her for the first touring company but not as one of the kittens she'd been up for in the original production. I think she says that of her group at that callback all of them were hired but her. She was a bit tall for a kitten. On tour they put her in as Cassandra the Siamese cat even though she was very young. She then quickly moved to Broadway when Rene Ceballos left early. She was a bit unhappy in the show I read.

Funny how all the kittens swoon over Terence Mann but Charlotte got him in real life.

There's a podcast on YouTube with Kim Criswell where she talks about Buckley almost being replaced at the end of the original contract. Criswell also talks about Georgia Brown, whom she initially loved but found herself Brown's whipping boy.

Buckley had a rough 1982. She was in the finals for both big shows of the fall (Cats and A Doll's Life.)

She was being called back to both a lot.

A Doll's Life loved her singing and performance (Paul Gemignanini later said Betty's final audition was the best audition he had ever seen an actor give) but they felt she just didn't look the part.

I think that is what prompted her speech to Trevor Nunn where she said the stuff about you may find someone who can do it as well but nobody can do it better and the others have all had their turn and she hadn't. (to open a big show.)

She prefaced that with I'll do whatever you want, if you want me thinner I'll lose weight if you want me fatter I'll gain weight. She laughs at her audacity now and says her agent was appalled and said will you ever learn to keep your mouth shut!

But I think losing A Doll's Life because of having the wrong look made her determined that she'd do whatever it took to get Cats.

(I'm always curious who the other women who had had their "turn" were that she always refers to. Laurie Beachman probably since she got the first road company. LuPone? Kind of doubt she'd want it. She'd be following Paige again but who knows. Trying to think of other hit shows around the late 70s/eighties. Priscilla Lopez? Christine Andreas? Judy Kaye?)

[Quote] they felt she just didn't look the part.

I expect she heard this a lot. It must have grated to play the gym teacher while some of her peers were playing teens in CARRIE.

Was Ellen Foley seen for shows like "Evita" and "CATS"?

I've heard that podcast r184. I sort of don't believe Criswell. It just seems odd that they'd want to fire their Tony winner who also had a tv fan base and was part of the event of seeing the show to such a large extent. Maybe she was really missing many shows? Who knows. Criswell seems to like to tell stories but who knows maybe it really happened. Her explanation that she was too young for the part sounds suspect too since they hired her for LA like 2 years later or so.

In that book Stephan Hanan released of his diaries from the time he specifies that Buckley was always very nice to him. (It does sort of imply that she wasn't nice to some other people though.)

Hasn't it been claimed that Buckley wanted to be allowed to arrive later to the theater for "Sunset Boulevard" because she could put on her make up at home?

Has the Eight Is Enough fanbase ever made any Betty Buckley show a hit? I don't think Buckley ever became a front rank star, true box office - another similarity to Dolores Gray or... Patti LuPone. Her screen success no doubt helped for publicity and promotional opportunities but with ALW shows... The Show is The Star.

[quote]but with ALW shows... The Show is The Star.

Except Sunset Boulevard. That was the problem Glenn became the star. Without her they had trouble selling tickets. I firmly believe the allegations that Miss Dunaway's production was not shut down because of her singing but because the advance sales dropped so much when Close's last performance was announced.

Buckley has discussed how the New York Times did a profile of her right before she opened that although the guy was nice (her words) he concentrated the article so much on whether she'd be able to keep the box office up to Close's level which caused her lots of stress.

Some say the set was the star.

the set just rose up after Cats, Starlight, Phantom wasn't that kind of simple?

Close was a dynamo in the role. Buckley is better to listen to sing the songs but Close acted the hell out of it. (Patti seemed strangely confused like she was always looking for her mark and wondering what show she was in. The Actor's Nightmare.

Elaine was the best.

If Miss Dunaway was so awful but the show was stable why not hire someone else? They must have seen a lot of women and had a second choice. Call her.

ALW lied.

The fact that Dunaway was cast in the first place shows that they had few options. Plenty of women could sing it but how many of them were box offfice? Very few, I'd suggest, which is why Dunaway was able to initially get the gig despite her lack of vocal chops.

[quote]But I think losing A Doll's Life because of having the wrong look made her determined that she'd do whatever it took to get Cats.

It wasn't as though she lost something valuable. Who wants to be known as the star of a huge flop?

I think they thought Dunaway could act/sing the songs which is what Close sort of did and she was still a big star then. I think they thought they could parade women thru it like Hello Dolly but Close was all the people could talk about. (let's face it the rest of the show without her is meh.)

ALW was supposed to be the box office draw.

I know r197 but at the time when she didn't get it after so many auditions and being told it was just her looks that were wrong it must have stung and made her more determined to get Cats.

Yeah it did work out better for her. Betsy who?

The show is meh without that giant set and those two songs.

Betsy did get to play The Witch on Broadway...

I love her

R200

I kinda agree....but there are five great songs- Surrender, New Ways To Dream, The Perfect Year are also good.

It's all the chorus crap that falls flat. The Lady's Paying is annoying as shit.

Buckley nails the final scene. Close was a cartoon and self indulgent, waving her damn hands and almost licking the banister. Stupid.

Did anyone sub for Buckley in even one preview or performance of Carrie?

[quote]she was coked up here:

Oh fuck you. That means she was doing this, which was minutes before she won.

r204 I think Buckley herself has said she had a coke problem

Yeah and where does she say she was "coked up" on the greatest night of her career?

I can't remember the source, r206, but in one interview she talks about being a mess that night. She also calls her date a "loser" and says she dumped him shortly thereafter.

Was he her dealer?

Possibly, r208? That may have been the implication

Now I'm curious about her date that night, but I can't find any photos of her from the awards show that aren't either performing or alone and with her award.

R210: I assume that's him sitting with her at r175

Oh, you're right, I feel silly, I should have checked videos instead of photos. Thanks r211.

I'm sure she can be hell on wheels but I'll always adore her for posting pics of her watching the Nov 2020 election returns, rooting for Biden while snuggled up with several kittens.

Betty replaces Patti at The Oliviers.

R202 “But only on your own.”

Don't forget Patti didn't want to originate and play a supporting role on Broadway even in an instant classic. It was OK to slum it London.

I don't blame her, r216.

Watching Buckley's incredible Memory, just magnifies how awful Leona Lewis was in the recent CATS revival on Bway.

Leona Lewis just at Memory and a few lines of another song, and she ruined the entire show. She had no character at all. She just moved around the stage and sang Memory like a pop star.

Betty's Memory is definitive. I despise that awful show, but Betty brought it to life in her one big scene. Not even Streisand sang it as well.

From video and audio bootlegs, I'd say she's easily the best Margaret White since Piper Laurie as well. Not only is it sung thrillingly, but her performance is bone chilling. Her Norma was excellent as well.

Her colder acting style doesn't translate well to musical comedy broads like Rose or Dolly, but when she's well cast, she's thrilling.

I used to have this CD. I wish I could find it again:

Betty showed up past half hour many times during Cats. One night the stage manager sent her home and let Janet who was already in costume go on. It was a humbling experience for Betty and she cleaned up her act after that.

I think Patti has said she hates Cats. She sang Memory on tour of ALW’s music when they needed a star while Crawford was off. I wish we had Judi Dench’s version. She was the original Grizabella before her injury.

^ God, she's holding it in her nose. Granted, a big nose but still, sing out, Fantine!

When Dench was involved with Cats, Memory hadn't yet been written. It was a late addition to the score.

Well, here's National Treasure Judi Dench's Send in the Clowns.

Let's just say she's a role model for the dogged Glenn Close.

"Memory" was put in for Elaine Paige. Paige recalls hearing it on the radio as an instrumental so perhaps that's how it would have been used if Dench hadn't departed.

[quote]Hubert sounds a bit thin on her moment singing a bit of Memory on the OBC. Now I'm thinking she may never have gone on since she had no story to tell in the interview. (she loved being in the show btw no drama from her.)

Really? I don't know..

I think Paige far outshines Buckley. She doesn't have the steeliness but she has the power which makes it much more poignant.

They didn't have to lower the banister for Betty, r228.

I don't get why someone thinks this thread is trashing La Buckley. I see about 95% positive and insightful commentary about her performances, the culture she performed in, her competitors, and the Broadway scene in general. A fascinating read.

Some stans are weirdly defensive about their divas. I can tell you, Steely Betty isn't offended or shook by any of this. She loves the attention and adoration, and is very likely reading this thread.

Hi Betty!

I missed Elaine, r228, but I don't think she would have far outshone Betty. But her plaintive sound definitely adds more vulnerability.

I always felt like Elaine Paige is singing live from inside a tin can.

She could definitely fit in one, r232.

Betty and Patti got into a war of words over the song Meadowlark. As Patti's biggest fan (I'm traveling to NYC specifically to see her in what might be her final Broadway role in a few weeks) I have to admit this was NOT one of her finest hours.

Betty would sing Meadowlark in concert. She would claim that Stephen Schwartz wrote it for her. Patti got on her blog in a since deleted post (you can still see where the post was, she replaced it with a message saying she didn't want to be negative) said, according to one person "A broken down diva is claiming that Meadowlark was written for her. Not true. It was written for Carole Demas, who I replaced in Baker's Wife, and become my signature song."

Betty contacted Patti and told her that Schwartz had said Schwartz told her specifically years ago he wrote it for her. They agreed to contact him to find out. Very very smartly, he claimed he couldn't remember. But at some point, Patti said to Betty "How would you like it if I came out and sang Memory every show?"

After consulting with Schwartz, they both agreed to stop singing the song in concert. But both of them kept singing it!

Carole...

She’s driving the piano player nuts there.

Carole's understudy...

What a shit song.

Its bookend song...

What does it say about me that all the people I enjoy the most have a large number of people who CAN'T STAND them? I first saw Patti LuPone at age 18 in Anything Goes. Knocked mevon.my gay ass. Greatest musical performance I'd ever seen. Bar none. I remember being shocked to find that so many people intensely disliked her. I'm not anymore, I fully expect it now.

It's DL... if it doesn't involve porn or cruelty, there's bound to be upset.

I’m not a huge Patti fan but she was perfection in Anything Goes and that entire production was pure joy.

I olden days gobble, gobble gobble stocking

Was looked gobble, gobble, gobble shocking

But gobble, gobble

Gobble goes!

Patti screeching Cole Porter was not meant to happen on this earth.

You bitches are brutal!

Schwartz did not write “Meadowlark” for BB though she might have been one of the first to hear it . . . or at least the beginnings of it. SS was busy composing “The Baker’s Wife” during BB’s long stint as a “Catherine” replacement in “Pippin”. She supposedly heard SS working on “Meadowlark” during the run of that show, loved it and for some strange reason thinks he wrote it for her. I know for a fact that SS “rolls his eyes” whenever BB tries to take ownership of the song.

LuPone is so dishonest. The only reason she considers "Meadowlark" her signature song is because it's not written by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

I mean, surely La LuPone must know that Don't Cry for Me Argentina is her signature song.

I got annoyed when an interviewer asked her about it. "The lyrics make no sense. Why would anyone cry over her?" Patti replied "I have no idea" and said it was nonsensical.

Cry, in the context of that song does not mean like sob. It means cry as in "cry out" which is what the crowd is doing just before the song starts. She's saying "You don't have to cry out for me. I'm here for you no matter what, my descamisados." Patti know that damn well.

So I listened to half of Meadowlark. That's as far as I could get. I'll have to try again when I'm feeling more indulgent. It has to be better than it sounds considering how everyone wants to claim it as written for them. Though I doubt Mary or Ethel would want to claim it.

Liz Callaway might be more your speed.

Definitive.

I'm good friends with Dolores Gray's niece. I have a small mink collar of her aunt's that she gifted me.

Regardless of what you think of Meadowlark, that fact that Buckley wants the audience to accept her ownership of the song based on some backstage esoterica reeks of desperation, especially when Patti has an established history with the original production.

R253. She has another in the box office.

I don't enjoy Betty's arrangement of Meadowlark.

It's a very lush song. Perhaps too lush.

Lusch?!

Let'sch not schtart inschulting thesch fine ladiesch!

Did Streisand ever sing it? It can't be any good if Streisand never sang it.

I can't hear her singing it.

[quote]Regardless of what you think of Meadowlark, that fact that Buckley wants the audience to accept her ownership of the song based on some backstage esoterica reeks of desperation, especially when Patti has an established history with the original production.

Yeah, yeah, yeah Patti was a replacement and not anywhere near the writing of the song.

I would have liked to hear Barbara Nichols' version.

Has Shirley Bassey offered a Sondheim tribute yet?

Meadowlark does not appeal

It's a show-off number.

I can finally reveal that MEADOWLARK was indeed written specifically for....

LINDA LAVIN!

How can one have diva airs after starring on…Eight Is Enough?

R61? NOBODY could make Sunset Blvd. profitable. Not even Glenn Close. That was the problem.

Did Glenn ever have a sold out week? Did Sunset ever have a profitable week? It was a very very expensive show that had mediocre reviews and little word of mouth.

Are you sure about that r221? I heard the same story only it was Drood she was sent home from. I guess it could have happened with both shows.

(the audience suffered though. Lots of disappointed people who wanted to see her.)

I think Close had sell out weeks in the beginning of the run. It was the only new musical of the season practically.

There was that big scandal when they faked the box office numbers when she was on vacation. They made it look like her not being there had no effect on box office which in truth it did.

(Feud: Sunset Boulevard Ryan Murphy, are you reading this?)

[quote]How can one have diva airs after starring on…Eight Is Enough?

You're so right, R267. It was no "Life Goes On."

She hated Eight is Enough. Thought she ruined her career by doing it and the producers were kind of "strange" she told Alec Baldwin on his podcast. One told her she had delusions of grandeur about starring on Broadway. Said she'd be lucky if she played housewives for the rest of her career.

the link shows Betty as Miss Fort Worth (it's on facebook so you need an account.)

r271 who understudied for Close?

Karen Mason.

I don't see Betty Lynn's claim re Meadowlark as farfetched. It's showbusiness. Schwartz could easily have shmoozed her.

Thanks r275

Wipe that smirk off your face, Datalounge.

^^^ The Chimpanzee.

Hate to be a spoil sport here but DAMMIT that Meadowlark was obviously written for me as consolation for having to slum it as a sitcom lead instead of doing my real love...the theatre.

R277... here she is... and she's great.

R249, In all my years of listening to that song, I never realized that's what it means. It FINALLY makes sense.

Meadowlark is boring AF.

Were Patti or Bernadette's shows any better, r267?

Betty Buckley was good in “Another Woman” but the real showstopper in the film was Sandy Dennis. Her bar scene, which evolves from a slow burn to bristling anger, was electrifying.

I always felt that the reason for the lyrics of Don't Cry for Me Argentina was so they could use the same lyrics that she sang during her triumph and give them a different meaning when she sings it while she is dying.

Exactly, r286.

Sandy was a gem, r285.

Don't remember if anyone mentioned that Carole Demas who sang "Meadowlark" first and shitcanned for Lupone was the original Sandy in the Off-Broadway then Broadway "Grease" and is on the original cast album.

We know...

Keep your Sandy chatter on the "Live Annie" thread, bitches.

Poor Carole Demas was also fired from the '71 "No, No, Nanette" and was replaced by Susan Watson.

Yes, Betty...

R292, Doesn't Lainie Kazan trump Carole by being fired from two Broadway shows in the same season, Seesaw and The Women?

Karen Mason is pretty great. Why didn't she get the national tour that Linda Balgord got? (and quickly closed.)

Balgord is kind of twitchy and strange.

I will always love Betty Buckley as Miss Collins in the movie "Carrie" (1976). She is great in this scene where she punishes the mean girls after they bullied Carrie.

Karen was probably a better version of Glenn. Better voice, more warmth.....but she wasn't a "name". Not that Balgord is/was....but Linda certainly was memorable. She has a weird voice and gave a weird performance. And had already played Griz on Briadway so clearly ALW liked her.

...but yeah, they needed a name for the tour to work, and with Linda and the handicapped set....it wasn't going to happen.

(I really dislike Linda's singing.)

If Webber was smart he would have offered the tour to Buckley. She'd have blown everyone away.

I heard someone say Buckley gave a print interview at some point warning actresses that playing Norma wasn't worth it and was too demanding...and Andrew got mad about it. I looked online for more details about this but found none. Which publication ran that interview? I want to read it.

Surely that was Patti about EVITA? She complains about the score as a form of misogyny.

I don't think she'd say that r298. She loved playing the role. It was the highlight of her career she says.

It wasn't without stress. London went well except she did some thing where she'd growl her voice at certain parts which gave her nodes and she had to not speak for 6 weeks. (that's when Elaine Paige jumped in to keep the show running until Buckley could return.)

Then when she came to NYC the NY Times ran an article that she felt emphasized too much the fact that she wasn't as big of a movie star as Close and would she be able to sell tickets. (her vocal coach helped her by saying all you can do is give a good performance. Leave the rest to the marketing team.)

It was also hard in NY because after playing the role for a year in London Trevor Nunn got panicky about her interpretation and worried it wasn't as broad as Close's. At the last minute he treated to tweak and change the performance which scared her. (he was right in away I guess because I can remember the NY Times review said her Norma was like one that had been to Betty Ford Center and got her stuff together and wasn't as unhinged as Close's was.)

But overall she always sounds very positive about the show, Trevor Nunn and ALW.

r299 only after she got fired from Sunset. There is a youtube clip where she is on the Joan Rivers Show (she sings I Dreamed a Dream and explains why she isn't going to do it in NYC.)

Rivers asks her point blank did you like doing Evita where she beams I LOVED IT!!

All the misogony stuff only came when she was fired which I guess is understandable. It must have hurt terribly to be let go like that.

LuPone also reflected on the time she trashed her dressing room after learning she was fired from Sunset Boulevard. “I took a floor lamp and I used it as batting practice,” she said. “I smashed up my waiting area and then took the floor lamp and threw it out of the second floor window.”

[Quote] then took the floor lamp and threw it out of the second floor window.”

She was lucky.

Didn't Betty Lynn claim that her London digs was haunted? I think she was known as Batty Betty.

that was when she did Dear World a few years ago r304

She had to move.

Oh, well. The worst is Ellen Greene.

How so r306?

Did Bacall ever cover Meadowlark?

Did Betty Lynn ever cover "Hearts not Diamonds"?

If she did, you probably wouldn't recognize it from the arrangement.

Now Betty can sings those boring Sondheim songs any way she fucking wants to.

I am amazed at people who claim Close "acted the hell out of it." She hammed the hell out of it. Half the reason the set was so big was there was less to replace after she chewed her way through it each night. There was no subtlety in Close's performance, even her vulnerable moments were overwrought, reinforced by her wobbly upper range, if you could call it an upper range. Even Swanson's performance had brief moments where Norma was a real person, not playing the part of a star. Close went from zero to insanity from her entrance and never let up. It was fascinating and boring at the same time.

R312, Lovely.

I totally agree that Close was cringe. Some called it kabuki but jesus....it was like kid's theatre. He was all gasping and big faces and zero believability. Folks just cheered cause she was a name.

I liked her far better in the ALW birthday concert at Royal Albert Hall. She was subdued for the cameras there and it worked far better. She also seemed to have drastically dialed-back the camp in her performance for the revival a few years ago (the one with that hideous set). Funny how her once so-called "brilliant" take on Norma needed adjusting....

You got most of that info from that documentary profile on Betty, right r300? The one with the footage of Norma's last scene and Betty and her pilates instructor talking about the work she out into the role?

Though I didn't get that it was Betty's growl that caused nodules or her departurefrom the show. I mean....she only growled on the last "...wiiiiith oooooone lllllllllllllllllllllllllook.....!" She didn't exactly Christina Aguilera her way through the score.

....so there was no "Norma ain't worth it ladies..." article/interview. Hmmm. Wonder why someone said there was...

I agree Norma is her best role. Griz and Margaret, though awesome, were sketches.

Whoops - called Glenn Close "He" somehow! LOL.

SHE was all....

R315, Whatever.

Saw Glenny and Betty. Glen was fine, but I have to be truthful and say the set blew me away more. Betty earned every cheer. Not just singing, but she was Norma and of a lifetime of going to Broadway I can honestly say Betty's "As If We Never Said Goodbye" starting with Hogeye was the single most thrilling thing I've seen onstage. For some reason the really great clip shot from the second row isn't online anymore. Someone had posted it on Betty's twitter and there tons praise and she seemed genuinely moved by the comments.

She had some sex appeal, so her coupling with Joe didn't seem so skeevy.

The problem is Sunset Blvd isn’t that great and memorable a musical. Sure, Betty was great, but the whole experience was rather forgettable

I was around during Into the Woods. Betty Lynn was fired for being constantly late to rehearsals. She was warned repeatedly—and then Lapine fired her.

Yes I've been going to the theater for a very long time (as in I've seen the original productions of all the Prince/Sondheim musicals) and Buckley's singing of As If We Never Said Goodbye was one of the most thrilling moments to be experienced.

^Mary!!!

R321 her "singing of"...?

Your speaking of English is also a thrill.

But yes, even just seejng clips, it was clearly a really iconic Broadway moment.

Singing of is correctly phrased.

R78 To Connie? I did not know that.

The thing about Close's performance is

1. you have to specify when you saw it

2. it is a myth that she was this huge movie star stealing the limelight from Patti and to big a movie star for Betty to replace

Close was kind of struggling in films at this point. It had been 5 years since Dangerous Liasions and most of her output in those 5 years wasn't that great except for Reversal of Fortune but Jeremy Irons got all the attention for that. She was doing TV (yes high profile getting an Emmy for that Streisand produced lesbian in the military film) but she was also doing small plays around LA seemingly trying to get her film career back in gear. She wasn't that confident about her singing and has said she was always terribly nervous in her early days when she auditioned for musicals. I think she took Sunset as a way to relaunch herself (and also probably thought it was a great role.) I seriously doubt she or anyone else ever imagined that Patti the diva of Broadway would bomb and Close would be the success

As to her performance the early performances in LA were just electric. She was raw, emotional, hysterical, funny, yet real. I saw it at the very beginning and then at the end. She was probably quite nervous headlining a big musical like that which she had never done but she channeled that nervousness into the character and it was just brilliant. One of the most amazing performances I've ever seen. She did a long run in LA and yes towards the end was a bit broader and fell into the mechanicalness that comes with a long run. I didn't see it in NY but I'd guess she was like that when she did her long run there. I don't think it would have been physically possible to sustain the performance she gave at the beginning.

Oh and yes she was funny. I've never seen anyone else get laughs as Norma. (I heard Elaine Paige did though.) Each trip up or down the stairs was had it's own little story and some of her line readings (Joe: How old is this character in your script? Norma: Sixteen!) brought the house down. (Betty got no laugh at all on that but we've discussed her lack of comedy skill.)

I saw the revival and I thought she did a nice job of toning down the broadness yet was still big enough.

Man, in that LA opening days the way she sings so much to LIVE (breaks down) for! Spinetingling.

[Quote] Close was kind of struggling in films at this point

Patti and Betty never even rose high enough to reach the downward tracjectory of "struggling in films at this point."

[Quote] Patti the diva of Broadway

Strange how you analyze Close's career but act like a publicist for Patti.

[quote]Patti and Betty never even rose high enough to reach the downward trajectory of "struggling in films at this point."

We chose television as a more intimate medium to showcase our dramatic talents at their apex in smash hit series.

ok now onto Betty (didn't realize how long my last post was)

Sang it beautifully. Big lush tones. The one you'd want to get the album of and listen too....BUT

Betty always sounds a bit defensive (and a little attacking of Patti and Glenn) when she says she wanted her Norma to have some humanity.

To me she was a bit muted. The line about Norma post-Betty Ford in the Times review was so accurate. She was just a nicer and saner Norma than Close.

and no r328 I'm hardly a publicist for LuPone. She was just plain odd in the role. Like a deer in the headlights who was constantly wondering if she was on her mark. No stage presence, no "star quality" and kind of grating vocally. You'd never know she'd starred in huge musicals before. At times she seemed like someone had left the stage door unlocked and some woman wandered onto the set and didn't know what show she was in.

My armchair analysis of this is that by this point in her career Betty had gained the reputation and was struggling with the fact that people thought she was (and I love Betty) a bitch. She seemed afraid to be the raging nasty woman her Margret in Carrie was and to me it she seemed like she was worried that people would like her so she is a bit ingratiating. I'm guessing that is what Trevor Nunn got jitters about at the last minute. She was nicer and smaller than Close and then by this time Close's star status had been restored and people wanted to say her. Nunn must have panicked and wanted more Margaret in her Norma.

To me the show has never worked without Close. Betty sang so well but she faded a bit into the dullness of the Joe storyline and didn't give the shock to the system Close did each time she entered.

I saw Glenn Close in previews for Sunset Blvd in Los Angeles. She was fine. Singing voice was ok. Then, I went to closing night in LA. Her performance had changed- I was shocked. She was mugging, hopping around the stage, making funny noises, milking laughs. I couldn't believe how much the director let her start playing to the audience. It was a disgrace.

[Quote] and no [R328] I'm hardly a publicist for LuPone.

Well... Patti mostly bombed post EVITA (e.g. the revival of OLIVER!). Your post makes no mention of that.

ok r232 I didn't say she was THE Broadway diva. She was a Broadway diva. Huge acclaimed hits with Evita and Anything Goes. You seem to want to start a fight. No I didn't mention her 4 performances in Oliver. Anything Goes restored the lean years after Evita and she was considered a Broadway star. (obviously since ALW did hire her.)

ALW also hired that American for aspects of love. LuPone is a star to theatre queens only. I don't believe that Close would have been intimidated. Most of LuPone's projects don't pan out. She never had a string of successes like Close did.

There's a false narrative out there about LuPone. Even Forbidden Broadway references (or created) it with that lyric about her being a latterday Merman. It goes something like "Who do they [producers] phone? Patti LuPone!" Bernadette Peters got the Annie Get Your Gun revival, not LuPone.

Alls I know about Patti is, I went to see her in Anything Goes in 1988 not really knowing who she was. It was by far THE most exciting, vibrant, thrilling performance I've ever witnessed. When she sang, she my heart was beating outside my chest.

I've seen her sing live dozens of times since then, in concerts and in shows, and she always delivers. For me, the is THE Broadway Diva. I believe that during the pandemic, she became a living legend. We will be poorer when she retires from the stage, and I will be devastated when she dies.

I'm a realist. I know she's not everyone's cup of tea, and, unfortunately she's never been huge box office. No denying that.

Her supernatural talents are on display here. Thank God two people had the foresight to tape Evita. Doing Rainbow High she is utter perfection. The thing with the fur wrap "DRESSED UP somewhere to go"- I've seen many women do it. Loni Ackerman, Flo Lacey, Elaine Paige and on and on. No one did it like Patti.

I will be paying my tribute on December 22 when I go to see Company.

LuPone was a big enough star to get the role over Buckley who tried to get it originally. She'd had Les Miz and Anything Goes and left the musical theater on an up note prior to her TV run.

She wasn't known to just "theater queens" (ugh you must be of the generation that still uses that word. yuck.) She was known to anyone who had a TV from 1979 to 198whatever as the woman from Evita. Women know her. Aspiring girl singers wanted to be her.

(and why are you arguing with me about this? I'm not even a fan of hers as I said.)

And Close has said musicals made her nervous so headlining a big show like Sunset I'm sure brought her some anxiety. The woman had never had the lead in a musical before (except maybe in summer stock or college.)

[Quote] I believe that during the pandemic, she became a living legend.

Did she send away in the mail or...?

Aspiring girl singers wanted to be Andrea McArdle or Jodi Benson. That doesn't make them stars. (And unlike those two, LuPone has none been influential as a singer.)

[Quote] She wasn't known to just "theater queens" (ugh you must be of the generation that still uses that word. yuck.) She was known to anyone who had a TV from 1979 to 198whatever as the woman from Evita. Women know her.

They don't reliably show up for her at the box office. She is not a star.

LuPone's poor diction is legendary.

When she sings, she slurs.

Rex Reed has been calling her out on this since Evita.

Ibegtadiffyabilly!

[quote] And Close has said musicals made her nervous so headlining a big show like Sunset I'm sure brought her some anxiety. The woman had never had the lead in a musical before (except maybe in summer stock or college.)

She starred opposite Jim Dale in the original production of Barnum.

Did they ever build a TV show around Jim Dale?

No, but they built one around me.

R333, making an observation about how I found the sound of her voice is nowhere near starting a fight. This is starting a fight. But I make it point of principle not to fight with the mentally feeble.

[quote]And Close has said musicals made her nervous so headlining a big show like Sunset I'm sure brought her some anxiety.

With good reason. So often a musical really benefits when the cast can actually sing.

Close was the most fun Norma while still delivering in the serious moments. I liked that she had fun with it and wasn't as dour as Betty. Some people really believe that dark characters like that should never get laughs and, that if the actor causes the audience to laugh, they've failed. I believe it means they've succeeded. If the audience is so caught up in the story that they're laughing to relieve their own stress and anxiety, that means they're really paying attention and invested. Most of Close's biggest laughs came from moments like that.

I've seen it happen in productions of Gypsy as well in that scene right before "Everything's Coming Up Roses" where Rose says "and I can make you now" to Louise. That line should get a nervous laugh, but many actors speed right past it to not allow the audience time to laugh.

Close had plenty of musical experience - all those years with the Up With People cult!

I had never heard of Close when I saw Barnum at the beginning of its run but she was clearly someone to be noticed.

I'm old enough to have seen Glenn in the musical Rex when it previewed in Boston in 1976.

R342

Is that the gag line from the Forbidden Broadway Anything Goes bit? If so thank you - I couldn't make heads or tails of it. Obviously that's the joke...LOL

R331

See, that's interesting to me...in the proshot footage of her in LA she's camp as hell in the last scene and grinning and posing. Wouldn't they have shot that footage early in her run....when you say Glenn was restrained?

I have to remind folks that in every video I've seen of Betty as Norma - and I've tried to see them all - she gets laughs. "16", "I AM....BIG - its the pictures that got small" and "a half pound since Tuesday" always get laughs. They're good lines...but let's not pretend Betty can't do dry humor. She can, she did, and there's video proof.

Glenn couldn't make me care about Norma though. She was much easier to laugh with/at because it felt like a cautionary tale - watch out for the crazy cougar!!

Betty's Norma was deeply shaken and so was I by the end. You care that she loses everything and wish it didn't have to go that way. Glenn was just a spectacle.

Not without her own merits of course but come on now.....Betty's voice, looks and terrifying stillness got under your skin. She was right to say she wanted a more human Norma. She even convinced them to adjust that ugly eye makeup.

Great thread! I’ll just add that it deserves noting that Elaine Paige is the only one in costume on the actual set that ALW chose to film for the “As If We Never Said Goodbye” official video. Many say she was the ultimate Norma… I’d agree.

R353 I wouldn't surprise me if they shot more proshot footage once it was decided that Glenn was going to play it in NYC. I will never forget that closing night performance. After all the mugging and laugh getting, she did a curtain speech. She mentioned the '94 earthquake, the death of Jackie Kennedy, and the OJ car chase, all of which happened during her run.

Goddamn, I will never forget how crushed I was when I heard Patti was fired from NYC. Ugh.

R352, I loved that bit.

When they would get to the part where she sings "Anything Goes!", she instead sang "Patti LuPone!!!".

[Quote] Is that the gag line from the Forbidden Broadway Anything Goes bit? If so thank you - I couldn't make heads or tails of it. Obviously that's the joke...LOL

I've always thought that she's saying "I beg to differ with you, Billy" but in Patti's slurred way.

My favorite part of the FB number is the clumping sounds during the dance break. So MEAN.

In the theater mean is another word for honesty.

Everything's coming up Patti for me and for me!

r290 That was fun. Barry Bostwick is now playing the Dad trying to fix up his gay son on Netflix's Single All the Way.

R361, Barry Bostwick displaying his bulge and ass in 1984.

...um ok... Enough Barry thank you LOL. This is Betty's thread.

R354 I really like Paige in the role - the vulnerability and natural charm and voice are all good - but she kept mugging AS Gloria Swanson. I get that they have a certain visual similarity but I found it annoying as hell. Like she was doing an SNL skit. It wasn't necessary. But yeah, ALW really loved her as Norma. The filming may have more to do with needing to drum up interest months/years into the run more than wanting to immortalize her particular take.

I really liked Elaine during the Salome Script sequence in Act One though. Neither Betty nor Glenn made that part as gripping for whatever reason.

I do agree Patti was miscast. Great voice and diva presence, sure, but it didn't feel like a good fit for her. They did owe her a conversation about that, however. There were ways of firing her that would have been respectful....but then ALW and RUG were clearly lacking in respect from the outset, going by the details in her memoir.

Whatever. It should have been Betty opening on Broadway. Easy Tony win. No offense Glenn.

I wish Betty's voice were still there. Seeing her sing like that live is a sincere wish but now it's too late.

Was the stink of Carrie the reason she had no work on Broadway for the next 7 years or so until Sunset? Her performance was great.

Paige filmed a music video because she's a major label recording artist in the UK, no?

Susan Boyle would be an ideal Norma Desmond.

Or Susan Richardson.

Love this.

Why didn't Weber give the role initially to Paige especially that it was opening in London?

Paige claims that it was because she fucked up singing the song - I think it was an early version of "With Onle Look" with a different set of lyrics - at Weber's wedding lunch.

*With One Look

I don't think Patti was miscast so much as she got terrible direction. They let her play Norma as fairly normal and very vulnerable. She went mad at the end but there wasn't much build up to it... she snapped. It seems to me London under Patti was still essentially Sydmonton in the West End - a work in progress. They were tweaking and refining and changing right up to New York. Patti kinda got screwed out of the chance to play the part as it and the production evolved.

But she sure could sing it, nobody can take that away from her.

If only there was a blueprint on how to play the part.

OK I can't decipher G.S.

Sorry... the penny dropped.

Turn in your FAG card. Gloria Swanson.

r343 she wasn't the lead.

The show wasn't on her shoulders.

This thread inspired me to listen to some of my old Buckley albums.

Her version of "Skylark" from her album Much More is exquisite, but alas - not available on YouTube.

[quote] ...um ok... Enough Barry thank you LOL. This is Betty's thread. [R354] I really like Paige in the role...

...um ok... Enough Elaine Paige thank you LOL. This is Betty's thread.

I wish more of her studio recordings were on YouTube

What shows would she have been good in that she didn't get to do?

R381, The King and I

^^ LOL

Actually any of the Rodgers and Hammerstein shows. Why is it she and Patti never did any of them? Or did they?

There are reasons why Lapone, Buckley and Minnelli did not sell records. They are singing performers, not vocal artists. Garland, Streisand, Ella, Aretha are vocalists and artists. Garland and Streisand are also superb performers.

Merman was the ultimate performer who was impossible to sit through on record. There are singers of much less vocal prowess than Merman, Minnelli et al (Peggy Lee) who were riveting on record and at a mike with great musicians.

[quote]Merman was the ultimate performer who was impossible to sit through on record

The only reason Merman had a career was before mics, she could bellow to the back of the balcony. It wasn't her good looks.

They could hear her in the last row of the Brooklyn Paramount.

Gershwin told her never to take a voice lesson.

MARY! me all you want.

Seeing this picture of La Buckley beaming tonight at the opening of Company actually made me tear up. That she comes out to support everyone, including Patti like this is lovely. I understand Betty had times when she was difficult, but as far as I'm concerned, all is forgiven.

MARY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! r389

:-)

I know. MARY me with guns a blazin'

It's warranted. And I embrace that Mary side of me. I'm at peace with my Maryness.

[quote]That she comes out to support everyone, including Patti like this is lovely.

She went to get her picture taken and uploaded at all the entertainment web sites. She went for the publicity.

To support Patti Lupone? Are you nuts?

R389 is so young. Or just really dumb.

Oh, so what? At least her appearance gave us something recent to post about her.

Betty actually works a lot as an actress lately.

Reoccurring roles on Preacher, Supergirl and some new show that has yet to begin airing. (plus the obligatory Law and Order: SVU recently in a role she twitted she hopes recurs.)

Surprised she was never on American Horror Story. She does well with that gothic Horror type stuff.

[quote]There are reasons why Lapone, Buckley and Minnelli did not sell records.

LuPone.

[quote]Actually any of the Rodgers and Hammerstein shows. Why is it she and Patti never did any of them?

I am having a huge giggle imagining Patti LuPone as Maria von Trapp.

Patti as Mother Superior could give Climb Every Mountain a welcome Mermanesque belt.

Hiyonnahillwuzzalonelygoaderd...

R393 why is it dumb?

What is your IQ? There's a good chance mine is higher.

R397 It was the heartbreak of Patti's life that she never got to play Nellie,or Ado Annie, or even Annie Get Your Gun. For whatever reason, those parts just never came together for her.

She actually daned to audition to replace Bernadette in Sunday in the Park with George. Sondheim kept yelling at her "stop belting!" She didn't get it.

[quote]She actually daned to audition to replace Bernadette in Sunday in the Park with George.

She costumed herself as a Danish girl?

Oh, R401! Don't try to blame that on autocorrect.

Does Norman get Betty Lynn jobs?

She Norwegianed for Pippi Longstocking but that's public education for you.

Norman gets Betty Lynn blowjobs!

Didn't Patti do AGYG at Ravinia?

Betty could do Aunt Eller.

Betty would have been a fine Annie Oakley back in the day.

She would have been a fine Laurie and taken down Judd in the very first scene when he started acting surly.

The thought of Betty Lynn applying her depressed, "psychological" interpretation to Annie Fucking Oakley...

Think 1776- Pippin era, r410.

Who will speak/perform at Sondheim's memorial service?

Miss Stritch will find a way.

Will Zombie Elizabeth Allen manage to show up for *this* Sondheim event?

How many views did this thread get? I can't believe how many responses I got.

Dopey Patti thought they wanted her for Cinderella in Into the Woods.

(Um, Cinderella is pretty.)

But wasn't she played by Anna Kendrick in the movie?

R416 Wrong. They wanted her for the Witch. She told them she wanted to play Cinderella. Patti was attractive when she was younger. By the way, the Witch is pretty too in that show, queen.

The stuff about Close being to broad always baffles me. She was a silent screen star it was all about being broad.

No, it's about expressiveness.

She clowned embarrassingly. That's why she dialed it waaaay back for the revival.

Also because she was auditioning for the film version, which Paramount would have produced as they financed the show as well. "Look at me, I can dial it down!"

so why did critics and the public go crazy over her performance r420?

Because she was a movie star on Broadway. And she’d already been a convincing psycho in Fatal Attraction.

I will forever love Patti for yelling at that woman about her mobile phone and texting during the performance.

R424 What happened there was a woman was texting in the first row. Patti's exit was right by where the woman was seated, and she snatched it out of the women's hand. I understand it was something her character would do.

The other story was recorded. She stopped Rose's Turn to yell at someone taking pictures. People applauded her for it for it afterwards and it went viral.

The thing is, it came out later that it was a magazine photographer who'd been given permission to take pictures. Patti had been made aware beforehand. I guess she forgot. Not her finest hour.

[Quote] I understand it was something her character would do.

You are beyond a sychophant.

snatch

R426 why do you say that? I was honest about her bad behavior in the photog incident. As far as the cell phone thing, I wasn't there, but I heard she grabbed the phone in character. But I have no idea how it came off as there is no video of it.

I love the way Patti lowers her nasally voice when she gets very serious in discussing the American theater. That way you know Patti LuPone is talking to you very seriously about the American theater.

[quote]Also because she was auditioning for the film version, which Paramount would have produced as they financed the show as well. "Look at me, I can dial it down!"

Look at me, I can't turn back the clock!

They should make it with Madonna. They could include flashback footage of Norma playing a slave girl. Madonna could twerk it out.

Madonna sings more than well enough for that shitty score. Cast her!

If we're going to go with someone who can't sing, I'd rather Close.

But Madonna can't act or sing.

Twice a Threat!

God, I was so uncomfortable finding out the person she screamed at was a photographer with permission to be there.

It's like this huge FU moment from a star about having good manners in the theatre....which is totally valid....only it is misdirected at completely the wrong person.

Had it been me on the receiving end of that humiliating tirade, I don't know if I would have been able to keep from shouting back "WHO DO I THINK I AM?? A MAGAZINE PHOTOGRAPHER WITH PERMISSION TO BE HERE - REMEMBER??!??"

Imagine being screamed at and escorted out simply for showing up to do a job? And having an audience clap at your humiliation?

Patti should have publically O-pologized and shown her O-ppreciation in some way. It was an awful blunder.

R421 and r423 EXACTLY - perfectly said. This was definitely about Fatal Attraction and the public's curiosity. It was also a weak year for musicals at the Tonys.

I couldn't imagine Paramount casting her in her current physical shape, nevermind the voice. Norma isn't OLD old....that's partly the point. She has to still be seductive and fuckable.

Did anyone see Betty in London and on Broadway? What were the differences? (Aside from the eye makeup) Did she act more OTT like Glenn in London, per the director's preference? Was there no growl at the end?

Gloria Swanson wasn't seductive and fuckable with her no-lip having ass.

Patti is guesting on Seth Meyers tonight.

Will she sing a lullaby?

[quote]God, I was so uncomfortable finding out the person she screamed at was a photographer with permission to be there.

Dude, who's name is above the title on the marquee? Obviously he was doing something that was distracting her during her performance. That's not how it works. He was fucking up and she threw him out.

What R440 said. NO WAY the photographer was performing his job capably if from up on stage, during performance, Loopy could hear this guy out in the house. Absolutely not.

I can only imagine what the press rep for the show must have screamed at the guy and his editors. I can only imagine what Loopy and her agent screamed at the general manager and the press agent. I can only imagine Laura Benanti running for cover.

"I can only imagine Laura Benanti running for cover."

I wish she'd stop running from me.

Well 50 was pretty old when Wilder made the film. You were an old person and you accepted that and looked and dressed accordingly. At least the average person.

There's a reason why the government chose 65 as the minimum age for both Social Security and Medicare.

Unlike today, many Americans never reached it.

Casting Madonna would be a little too on the nose.

Could they rewrite Joe as a twentysomething mixed rade dancer who aspires to be a screenwriter? Madonna would have casting approval, of course.

*race

Back to me, bitches.

ME!

Those cheekbones.

Fierce.

Too bad the musical attempts at making Whatever Happened to Baby Jane never worked out.

Patti and Betty would be perfect for the Bette and Joan roles respectively.

Fuck you bitchy fags! You'll see!

I'll be back where I was born to BAAAAAAAAY!

With one look, I'll be MAAAAAAAAY!

R450, there is no one in the known universe who could stage manage such a thing. No one.

They did a musical version of Baby Jane in Houston some years ago with Millicent Martin. I saw it. It was bad.

A musicalized "What Ever Happened to Baby Jane" sounds to me like the epitome of a "why" musical. How is adding humdrum songs (you know they would be) going to enhance that story in any way?

[quote] I starting to think Betty’s memoir will be called “The Negotiations Broke Down: My Greatest Almost Roles” by Betty Buckley.

With a special foreword by Joe Mangianello.

[quote]With one look, I'll be MAAAAAAAAY!

It's gonna be MAY!, Betty.

[quote]Those final notes of He Plays the Violin are among the most unpleasant on an obc.

R16, yes -- not only for the steely screechiness, but also because I don't think that last note is 100 percent on pitch throughout. Same for some BB's singing on the London cast album of PROMISES, PROMISES.

[quote]She admits to having a bad attitude in her younger days. She seems to work hard to be nice nowadays.

I don't know if it was a "bad attitude" or extreme neurosis bordering on mental illness. I have no idea if she's better now.

[quote]Even now she sounds better than Carol Channing, Ethel Merman, Betty Grable, Phyllis Diller and all the old work horses who played on Dolly Broadway in the original run.

Ridiculous. Her voice now has such a severe wobble that it's very hard to listen to. I still can't believe the was cast as Dolly in the tour of that smash-hit production, seeing how she has none of the charm and humor required for the part, and her voice is in tatters.

R459, The Dolly score is hardly operatic.

Yeah so....I almost went waaaaay out of my way to see Betty in Dolly.

Then I heard an audio bootleg. My heart broke. I couldn't recognize her. It was awful.

I still wish I'd seen the show, but...I'm not sure I could have enjoyed her vocals. They sounded wrecked.

....not saying Bette or Bernadette were in perfect voice....but I couldn't believe what happened to Betty's instrument.

Carolee Carmello replaced Buckley at the end of the Dolly tour and CC was so much better both vocally and dramatically.

I wonder if Patti turned down the tour of Dolly.

I thought Lucie Arnaz and Laurence Luckinbill would have been good choices. I heard her say she doesn't like to tour much anymore because they are in their "third act" at home in Palm Springs. (and some of their kids have "boomeranged.") But touring together used to be a thing they'd do. I think they did They're Playing Our Song and Whose Life is It Anyway alternating the male and female versions. I think that would have been interesting to see both.

When I think of Carolee Carmello, I think of that clip of her singing "The Music That Makes Me Dance" on one of those cruises. "Shrill" doesn't even begin to cover it.

R463, Larry Luckinbill is considerably older than Lucie and semi-mobile these days.

In videos she has posted on Facebook, dementia appears to have struck Larry.

That's mean of her to post a demented Larry.

[quote]The Dolly score is hardly operatic.

Agreed, but I don't want to hear a wobbly voice in tatters sing non-challenging show tunes, either.

You can't abide Gwen Verdon then, I guess.

Or me in Coco.

I really hoped the Dolly tour would resume after covid.

To whoever suggested Ellen Greene - she would have been awesome in it. A Carol Channing esque Dolly.

But the cast would revolt before the first week is out.

[quote]You can't abide Gwen Verdon then, I guess.

Well, I wouldn't say that, but I do find her rather difficult to listen to on the CHICAGO album. All of her other recordings are great.

Gwen would have probably been a great Dolly. The score is right in her range and she had the charm and comic timing for it.

Maybe Carolee was channeling Gwen.

R473, very true.

BJ

R436 Re Patti yelling. This shouldn't matter, but the photographer was an African-American woman . I always pictured a white guy, but nope.

R477, and though of course I have no way of knowing if this is true, I have read and heard that the photographer was pre-approved to shoot for P.R. purposes, and it was not a flash camera. Can anyone corroborate?

[quote]was pre-approved to shoot for P.R. purposes,

Which is fine, but they can't be a distraction.

You could tell by her tone that Patti loved berating the photographer. Any opportunity to be nasty she takes. Criticizing Madonna in Evita etc.

The oddest was when the Les Miz movie came out. She was so blase about AnnE saying she hasn't watcher her screener yet. Why would she be jealous of AnnE. She was like 30 years too old for the role by then.

Was she always so nasty or did the Sunset thing turn her bitter?

And I never heard of a photo shoot during an actual performance. They are usually during rehearsals.

I had forgotten the details of the LuPone vs. photographer incident. According to this article, it WAS a flash camera -- and no taking of flash pictures during a performance would ever have been approved by the production for any reason, so I guess my memory was wrong about that. Unless the article is inaccurate. P.S. This happened at the second-to-last performance of GYPSY.

I remember reading at the time that she was furious because they were flash photos. If they weren't flash photos, how would she have been aware they were being taken?

Patti's always been angry. I can remember her on Live at Five during Evita complaining that some guy named Joe Pollack wrote her a nasty letter because he saw a matinee and she wasn't there. She said she called every Joe Pollock in the book screaming are you the Joe Pollock who wrote me that nasty letter it wasn't my fault I wanted to do matinees too but they wouldn't let me.

(the awkward part was she pronounced Pollock like polak like the Polish slur and Jack Cafferty sat their awkwardly until she quickly corrected herself.)

Of course I was WONDERFUL in that Johnny Depp film!

R480 Sunset made it worse. R484 She was hardly able to do 6 eves.

Betty Buckley and Sissy Spacek were both terrific in this scene from "Carrie".

Thank you for reminding everyone of the REAL topic of this thread, r487!

If Buckley was any good she would have gotten the movie of 1776. Especially when they wanted everyone but her.

The facts of the Patti yelling at the photographer incident-

She was an African American lady working for The New Yorker.

Patti was told beforehand that she would be taking pictures. She forgot.

There was no flash, but a small green light that was visible to Patti.

After the incident, Patti called the woman to apologize, and she was paid a sum by producers to not reveal publically that Patti had approved her being there.

In February 2020, the woman was taking pictures for Company. She introduced herself to Patti, who had clearly forgotten the fact that the woman had permission to take pictures. There is a tic tok video of Patti and the woman, where Patti laughingly introduces her and says "I just now found out she had permission to be there!" Patti imitates herself yelling at the lady in a self deprecating way.

If you do a little digging, you'll find it

[quote]Patti was told beforehand that she would be taking pictures. She forgot.

Early-onset Alzheimer's ... tragic!

I have huge respect for LuPone and a bit of misplaced affection (on account of not knowing her) but she does seem angry and short tempered all the time and utterly indifferent to people's reaction to it (which is pretty bad mannered.) I wonder what she's always so mad about? Some crap things have happened to her, yes, but she's done pretty well... still she's always angry it seems or at least ready to become angry in a nanosecond.

Because she'd like to be Streisand.

Well to tell the truth , so would everyone here.

Unless Patti Lupone is your mother, it really doesn't matter how angry she is.

If you are a theatergoer, an audience member, a fan... all that matters is what she does on stage.

If you have to work with her, then be on your toes and check in regularly with your union.

r495 = Patti Lupone

Now get out of my thread!

And my post at R495 goes DOUBLE for Batty Buckley.

I don't think it was very nice of Carrie to kill Miss Collins.

None of us think that, r498.

Remember Heather's $30 hand sanitizer from the early days of COVID?

^^^ wrong thread

STOP PUTTING ON HAND SANITIZER DURING A PERFORMANCE! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

Thanks so much, R490. I remember now that I had read some of the details of the incident as you describe them. I couldn't at first remember how Patti knew someone was taking photos if there was no flash, so thanks for addressing that particular point.

So, in a nutshell: Patti terrorized that photographer, and an entire audience, simply because she forgot she was told that photos would be taken, and that she had approved it. Or....maybe she didn't forget and just enjoyed making a big, dramatic scene for her GYPSY swan song.

It's not dissimilar to that incident during NOISES OFF, when audience members heard Patti screaming backstage because she objected to cast members making a speech to collect money for Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS after the show. As I remember it, she didn't want to participate in the appeal -- but she didn't want the others to do it without her. Seems that whenever she's angry about something, whether or not she has any justification, she creates a ruckus rather than dealing with it in a calm and professional way. I guess she really, really loves all that drama.

[quote]So, in a nutshell: Patti terrorized that photographer, and an entire audience,

Terrorized? Are you a six year old girl?

r487 I love how the seen is so sweet but ends with that zoom in to a closeup of Buckley and her face changes and you can see she's trying to make Carrie feel good but inside she's worried that Carrie is right and the whole prom thing is a trick.

Wow DePalma could work that camera.

My LuPone story:

I was connecting in LAX and had to take the shuttle bus. I couldn't find it. I stopped at the customer service desk or whatever it was where a woman was arguing with the clerk. In a pause I asked where is the shuttle? (I was in a rush.) The woman turned around and pointed over there and then rolled her eyes and gestured like this clerk is such an idiot!

It was La Lupone.

(she was nice to me at least.)

OMG! OMG! Guess what I found at Dollar Tree...the Another Woman DVD. Dollar Tree being what it is now, it was $1.25.

Press reel for Carrie. Betty really sells "when there's no one" but wtf is with that costume? Margaret in a slinky nighty? Dirty pillows hangin'? Weird. The costumes for that show were bonkers.

If it's true that they courted Betty originally for the role, I wonder what made her say no. The script? Money? She ended up doing the infamous Broadway transfer - did they have to beg her to after Cook quit?

Yeah they came to her and said Cook quit and if you don't take over everyone will be put out of work and we'll never get to NYC. (and they probably paid her more than they wanted to before.)

I wonder what happened to Maureen McGovern. She did the original workshop and was a bit of a Broadway name back then. Cook seems so out of place. On Seth Rudetsky's show they very carefully talk about how Cook didn't like the "physicality" of the role which I think meant she was too fat for it.

In one of the youtube tapes she can barely make it down the infamous white staircase and has to be helped by chorus boys to get off of it.

I think that was more because the bannister stopped where Carrie's platform cut into the staircase. Cook would have to get up and then descend without anything to hold onto....not easy for anyone.

Frankly, if I were Buckley or Cook I wouldn't want anything to do with that steep staircase. Talk about an accident waiting to happen...and I can walk and see just fine. Imagine falling at one of the show's only successful moments?

Not to bring things back to Patti, but she told Seth Meyers just this week that she wanted to quit theatre because during War Paint she had bone grinding on bone action happening with her hip. She's had surgery since and also on her shoulder...and Patti's hardly had the career of a dancer. It's just the wear and tear of theatre work, she said.

...what I'm still confused about is, regarding Carrie, is whether Margaret's chair actually rises at the end of Act One. There was so much smoke you could hardly see her....and Lindsay's hands were on fire, so that was obviously the focus...but I think the idea was that Carrie rips open the floor, unleashing flames, while Margaret's chair rises up, trapping her mid-air.

But if you can't even see it, what's the point? And DID it rise? If so...how?

Magic

As r509 and r510 suggested without outright saying it, Cook refused to continue after she was nearly decapitated when the set malfunctioned.

[quote]If it's true that they courted Betty originally for the role, I wonder what made her say no. The script? Money?

"Negotiations broke down."

Given Buckley's outspokenness it is sort of baffling that she never asked (or maybe she did and couldn't get stuff changed) more questions.

Such as why is there suddenly a huge white staircase in Carrie's house?

Why are the girl's showering in gym clothes?

Why does Charlotte d'Amboise wear a dance leotard to school?

She really did give it her all considering when she joined Cook was already telling people it was the Moose Murders of musicals.

She says Debbie Allen had her running wind sprints to increase her stamina. I'd guess Cook didn't do that!

Well, technically the girls were shown in the showers with bras and panties and towels...not wet uniforms....and the staircase was clearly not supposed to be inside their house....it was outside the gym (there's even one like it in the clip from the movie posted above) but more importantly it was a symbolic stairway to heaven. Random, sure, but a stunning choice in a good way.

...I don't understood how she didn't hit them with the truth though about how weak the show was. There were easy things that could have been done to improve the overall effect. Ditch the togas for one. Drop blood on Carrie in a way that actually looks decent for another. Lose the tap dancing dress stuff.

Supposedly she was friends with Gore and Pitchford...? Did that make her less able to criticize..? Or was she biting her tongue and focusing on the Margaret stuff?

I think she worked mostly with Hately and tried to get their scenes together to work and didn't have much say in the rest of the show. In that Seth R. interview he has Buckley, Hately, d'Amboise, Sue Snell actress and the book writer I think (maybe Gore too I forget.)

d'Amoise has some interesting stuff to say. First she says Buckley gave the greatest performance she's ever seen in the musical theater. She also hints at how Buckley was subtly trying to work behind the director's back (whom they never mention by name and barely talk about.) She'd call Charlotte they'd just chat and stuff and then Buckley (who did have a long history as an acting/singing coach and openly helped Hately thru the whole thing and the aftermath) would say something slyly about Charlotte's character and d'Amboise who was quite new to it all says she one day realized Betty's trying to give me ideas and get me thinking more in character than I have been.

You have heard the Grease/Greece story r515? If not, Terry Hands the director was told by someone after he said he was having trouble understanding the American teenager part of the show that it was "like Grease." The person meant the show/movie. He thought they meant the country and Greek Tragedy. That's where the final set looking like it came from a production of Medea came from and I guess the togas too. Where in the show did they wear the togas?

Buckley did know Pitchford who was an actor first and was and was one of the people who played Pippin opposite her Catherine plus the book writer is the same guy who wrote the screenplay so she knew him. (She must have known Gore too a bit since she went with Pitchford when he won the Oscars for Fame. You can see her sitting with them when they win.)

I actually saw Betty Buckley in Carrie. It was a class trip for the drama club. Senior year. My gayness must not have been fully formed yet, because I don't remember fan gurling over Buckley. I think I must have become fully gay that fall in college. Because when I saw Patti in Anything Goes that December, I walked out of the theater WORSHIPING the woman.

[quote]Because when I saw Patti in Anything Goes that December, I walked out of the theater WORSHIPING the woman.

Attribute that to Cole Porter.

By that logic, r518, we have to *blame* Cole for Sutton.

[quote]The costumes for that show were bonkers.

And Debbie Allen's choreography was based on the trend of the day, aerobics and that chorus never stopped moving the second they hit the stage. Too over the top.

I'm the one who saw Carrie on Broadway. Really underwhelming was the gym teacher, played by Darlene Love, of all people. LeRoy from Fame playing the Travolta character was trip.

I recall the biggest issue with the play being the climatic moment when Carrie gets the blood poured over her. A band of kids come out, LeRoy carrying the bucket, simply pours it over her head. The moment when it happens in the movie is so horrible and tension filled, that this just looked silly.

Buckley and Hately's scenes together weren't what needed the work. It was everything else that was ludicrously conceived. Whenever those two were the only ones on stage, it was pretty magical. Their performances with those original orchestrations were beautiful, scary, and very haunting.

One of the biggest issues with trying to tell this story satisfyingly on stage is that the climatic prom scene just can't have all the fire and brimstone it needs to work. The little cup of blood they toss on her and the laser lights in the original production didn't do the trick and neither did the weird bucket animation and cheesy death choreography in the revival. The best one so far has been that one from L.A. where they have Chris lifted up in the air and into the rafters.

Barbara Cook was in her mid-fifties when when did CARRIE. Betty Buckley was twenty years younger.

With all the current and future cancellations, Sondheim's memorial service will probably be next spring.

Here, r522...

The Ballad of Johnny Pot

Is she still hawking Geritol?

[quote]Press reel for Carrie. Betty really sells "when there's no one"

The only thing I'd heard from Carrie was an audio of Betty singing this song and it was so good, I thought how could the show have been such a flop? Watching your video, I have the answer.

Betty and Linzi weren't the problem.

[quote]how could the show have been such a flop?

Because it was a dumb idea for a musical?

how many views did this thread get?

I never realized it would be so popular.