Slave owners could take out mortgages using slaves as collateral

and that connects to the price of eggs how ?

Jefferson was no hero. He benefited from slavery a lot

You just found this out, OP? Slaves were property and worth a lot of money. DUH.

“Almost everyone I've talked to says, "We're gonna move to Houston." What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas... Everybody is so overwhelmed by the hospitality, and so many of the people in the arenas here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this (as she chuckles slightly) is working very well for them.”

Interesting! Never knew this

A very strong field hand was worth 35K on the market (todays dollars) but also produced hundreds of thousands and maybe millions (todays dollars) of benefit over his lifetime.

19th C slave owners were thinking in a very enlightened time and they had to go through far-fetched intellectual and moral hoops to justify the legality and quasi-morality of slave owning (some didn't even bother, to their credit) because slaves were fantastic wealth creators.

And animal abuse laws existed before child abuse laws because animals were considered property, America was founded on Capitalism and worth of property was an essential concept. Consequently, the first child abuse cases were tried under animal abuse laws.

OP, people didn’t wear deodorant either.

But only fixed-rate.

It's been a long time since I read Justinian's Institutes (that's not a sentence I type everyday), but iirc, in Roman law, the testimony of a slave was admissible only if obtained under torture ... the implication being slaves were inherently untrustworthy

A desire to preserve slavery was a key factor behind the American revolution. Slavery was already on the way out in the British Empire, having been abolished in England in 1772.

Not all historians agree, r12

[quote]Although slavery was certainly an issue in the American Revolution, the protection of slavery was not one of the main reasons the 13 Colonies went to war.

It was primarily Northern banks that provided the financing to the slave owners, and Northern insurance companies that sold them life insurance policies on their slaves. That was an important element in New York becoming the nation's financial capital. (In colonial times, the New York slave market, at Wall and Water Streets, was the second-largest in the 13 colonies, after Charleston, SC.)

Could you buy one on layaway?

Sounds like something we should try again soon OP...

R13, while it's doubtful that a major reason for the American Revolution was to retain slavery, it is accepted that slaves looked to the English as their best chance for freedom from slavery. They tended to support the British during the revolution

213. If he struck a freeman's female slave and has caused her to have a miscarriage, he shall pay two shekels of silver.

214. If that female slave has died, he shall pay one-third mina of silver.

215, If he is indiscreet and seduces a freeman's female virgin slave, he shall pay the freeman four shekels of silver for new sheets

I am more convinced everyday that I was apparently the only student in America that appears to have actually read their history textbooks or listened in class. People keep “discovering” facts like this, when it wasn’t hidden in the first place.

Many people benefitted from slavery around the globe and for thousands of years.

R20 including the Africans who captured and sold the slaves to the white man.

That comes up regularly in mystery novels set in Ancient Rome, R11.

R21, yes, but the slave trade involving the Western Hemisphere was the largest in the world history and the biggest beneficiaries were the landowners.

It also introduced chattel slavery on a humongous scale--if you were a slave, so would be all your children

Just love how everyone LOVES to bitch about history . GET A CLUE ! Native americans had slaves , mexicans had slaves,virually the entire world did. It hasBEEN STOPPED. Get over your self rightious selves. It called EVOLVING !!!!! Try reading about the history of women of gays .

Slaves in the southern US were also rented out for money, on an annual, year-to-year, basis. I have some of the "contracts," which had been saved in a box of old family papers.

Um, but the scale of white farmers having slaves was something the world had never seen before.

And we still deal with the effects of slavery today

And I'm here to tell you teachin facts and historical reality and shit to my precious Jayden and Brayden is [bold]EIGHTEEN BILLION[/bold] times worse than slavery ever was!

R12, 1772? No. That judgment only ruled for the right of a slave not to be removed from England and sold overseas. 1833 is probably the date you're looking for, well after the American Revolution.

[quote]yes, but the slave trade involving the Western Hemisphere was the largest in the world history

[quote]yes, but the slave trade involving the Western Hemisphere was the largest in the world history

R23 R26 Using hyperbole, speculation and selective history does not make your point, but rather hightlights your ignorance. Muslims were slavers in Africa 1,000 years before the "Western Hemisphere" knew that Africa existed. How many Africans were sold by Africans to Muslim slavers and the extent of the Muslim slave trade for 1,000 years is little known.

[quote]And we still deal with the effects of slavery today

R26 Because slavery still exists today. In Africa and Asia. Because while the "Western Hemisphere" ceased being slavers, Muslims never did.

Many straight men still act like they "own" their partners and children, to the extent that if the partner tries to break up or divorce them or move on with someone new, they'll threaten, stalk, and/or kill them before they "allow" it.

Also: it's no coincidence that republicans throw around the term "owning" of liberals.

Sometimes I think we would be better off if we had lost the Revolution. England wasn't THAT tyrannical and slavery ended in the British Empire in 1834. The US would have broken away eventually and we could have avoided the Civil War (where the loss of military and civilian life was horrific, not to mention those who were seriously injured for the rest of their lives). If the slaves had been freed two decades earlier by Parliament, maybe the post-Civil War history of hostile race relations and race discrimination would have been different.

Here's another shocking fact that a lot of people seem to not know...

Slavery ended in America a century and a half ago and no one alive today owned a slave or was a slave. Your shitty life is due to you. Sorry you are incompetent at life but it's not the world's fault.

Can we still do that?

That hasn't happened in almost 200 years. Did you know Jews were sent to concentration camps. Irish were paid a quarter a day on the railroads and had their hands chopped off by damaged equipment only to hear their employer say "so what?" Russian serfs were as bound to the land as black slaves.

Anyone who is living centuries in the past is hopeless.

I noticed how you conveniently leave out the slave situation which exist in African countries like Mauritania. Situations that are current an you could actually DO SOMETHING to help a living person NOW. But that would be too much like right.

R35, don't forget the treatment of women throughout the history of the world. Wonder if people today would rather be a black person in America or a woman in a Muslim country?

There's also the ongoing LITERAL ENSLAVEMENT LEADING TO GENOCIDE of brave trans women of color.

R37 should have used a TRIGGER WARNING. Now I'm going to have to go lie down.

R29, We know that the Atlantic slave trade brought 13 million slaves to the Western Hemisphere. It's doubtful that number had happened any other time in history, even the slave trade in Rome or Saudi Arabia.

[quote] don't forget the treatment of women throughout the history of the world. Wonder if people today would rather be a black person in America or a woman in a Muslim country?

So Blacks should be happy with their lot in life?

[quote] Anyone who is living centuries in the past is hopeless.

Yes, let's pretend the past never happened.

It’s interesting how people say “black people” when talking about women as if black women don’t exist.

[quote] Anyone who is living centuries in the past is hopeless.

The past is present with Blacks in the US. The legacy of slavery completely dictates how blacks treated in the country that prides itself on equality

[quote]virually the entire world did. It hasBEEN STOPPED.

"Experts have calculated that roughly 13 million people were captured and sold as slaves between the 15th and 19th centuries; today, an estimated 40.3 million people – more than three times the figure during the transatlantic slave trade – are living in some form of modern slavery."

Not only that, slavery is simply apart of black history in America. Black Americans have our roots in it. That’s why we all have old school white last names like Jackson and Jefferson and etc.

White people love to recreate the civil war and visit Plymouth. I’m in New England and worked in Salem where people made a celebration out of white women being executed 330 years ago.

But black people need to move on! We’re not allowed to talk or analyze our history.

And working in Salem you would not believe how many white people have said “we’re descendants of (executed woman)” and ask for sympathy.

Not joking. I was there for 11 years.

[quote] today, an estimated 40.3 million people – more than three times the figure during the transatlantic slave trade – are living in some form of modern slavery."

So, instead of whining, why aren't you doing something to stop it?

"some form of slavery" isn't the chattel slavery that blacks encountered in the Western Hemisphere. Heck, does being a slave to the rhythm count?

I’m biracial.

I’m on Ancestry.com.

I was able to trace my white family back to King Edward I, which then traces back to Rollo the Viking. So I can go back about 1200 years on my mothers side. I also descend from an Irish female pirate named Grace O'Malley.

Millions of white people do this on Ancestry and other sites.

My fathers side has been tough. If I need to go any further back than the 1850’s, I need slaveowner records.

But I did find the last slave in my family. His parents both died in 1855 and he was sold off to his neighbor. He ran away and joined the Union and fought in the civil war. He married his best friends wife who was murdered by the KKK. He’s in a book called “River Run Red” about the Fort Pillow Massacre.

Learning about him and reading his words were empowering. He was a teenage runaway slave and a soldier.

But according to some white people, I’m not allowed to think about that type of stuff. I’m not allowed to have Ancestry.com because I come from slavery so I have to MOVE ON or else I’m playing a victim of the past.

R33. Slavery ended 160 years ago not racial equality wasn’t even embodied in the law, much less achieved, until 55 years ago. Being black in the US far from being an incidental difference even now.

R49 But then just like after slavery in the 1860’s, all sorts of horrible shit and laws and policies had happened and been implemented before the Jim Crowe laws of the 1910’s.

And when you look at the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s, and 2000’s they were not pro-black at all.

White people forget the 45 year gap between the end of slavery and Jim Crowe.

Black people are not out of the water yet even if the civil rights was 55 years ago.

[quote] We know that the Atlantic slave trade brought 13 million slaves to the Western Hemisphere.

Of which only about 388,000 came to North America yet we seem to receive all the grief for it.

It seems the English speaking world is held responsible for something that others, especially the Spanish and Portuguese were much more guilty of.

Oh, fuck you, r51, with your revisionist bullshit.

The "mere" 388,000 you claim ended up being 13 million by the time of the Civil War. Generation after generation born into chattel bondage with no hope of escape.

[quote]Slavery ended in America a century and a half ago and no one alive today owned a slave or was a slave. Your shitty life is due to you. Sorry you are incompetent at life but it's not the world's fault.

Oh honey. Spare your bile for the Southern rednecks who refuse to believe the Confederacy surrendered.

The point of history is connect the past with the present. If you're too fucking stupid to see the line connecting the institution of slavery with:

the war against "critical race theory";

the endless use of "black criminal superpredators" to beef up police funding;

white supremacist infiltration of police departments across the country;

I can't help you.

Step right up and see the racist trolls! We've got homophobic and sexist and ageist ones, too. There's something for everyone, and it costs only $1.99 a month. Step right up, folks. Step right up.

R52 still those over 12 million that went to the other countries of the Americas ended up being many times more as well, the fact is that when it comes to slavery the US was a guppy not a whale.

Wow OP, is this the first time the definition of 'property' occurred to you in a meaningful way?

My husband's family is still generationally rich from slavery. That's how much money their "farm" brought them.

oh bullshit, R57

fortunes don't last that long -- look at the Fords or Rockefellers or Kennedys or anyone

OP, these horrendously unfair and de-humanizing practices of over 150 years ago

MUST.

BE .

STOPPED.

NOW!!!

As best as I can determine by 18th and 19th century ancestors were mostly a combination of subsistence farmers and horse thieves. I'm not feeling personally responsible for slavery.

People who use the term "woke" = people demanding the loudest that public schools ban teaching the real history of America and slavery.

I apologize.

CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SINS

Who's the dufus who claims generational wealth can't survive a few centuries.

R52, you don't know what your talking about.

-Not R51

Between 1 to 2 million Europeans were captured by muslims and put into slavery, abducted as far away as Iceland. An under-class of former slaves did not develop in muslim countries because the male slaves were castrated and an offspring from the females were immediately murdered.

If you want to fight real slavery in any meaningful way, please see attached article. Really pay attention to what you have and consume that supports actual slavery. Real life slavery.

Imagine if American slaves would have been castrated.

[quote] I was able to trace my white family back to King Edward I,

Oh honey, EVERY white person of some British ancestry can trace their family back to Kind Edward I !

Or to Charlemagne.

^Assuming your family came from the British Isles, if you go back to the time of Shakespeare, about 500 years ago, you'd have about 4 million grandparents alive at that time, counting about 4 generations per century. Going farther back and you'd have to be descended from nearly every person in Europe. It's just math.

I got Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun and Ramesses II

Ramesses II had 52 legitimate sons and God knows how many other children. Every Egyptian is probably his grandchild...

[quote]An under-class of former slaves did not develop in muslim countries because the male slaves

Uh, not quite. There are still Africans among the Bedu (Beduin) tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, Jordan, Syria and Israel, descendants of slaves. They remain an underclass within those societies.

Afro-Saudis are prized as manservants in the Saudi aristocracy today. They serve meals to the men and do traditional "housekeeper" tasks around the palaces - not cleaning but taking care of details and coordinating among servants. Like a female "housekeeper" for British aristocracy.

[quote] People who use the term "woke" = people demanding the loudest that public schools ban teaching the real history of America and slavery.

But I'm not demanding that at all.

So you're just putting words in my mouth. So not impressed.

R74 That was their job as Muslim slaves. And it still is.

[quote]But according to some white people, I’m not allowed to think about that type of stuff. I’m not allowed to have Ancestry.com because I come from slavery so I have to MOVE ON or else I’m playing a victim of the past.

Exactly no one has said anything like that. Studying your past and blaming all the problems in your life on a past that ended over 150 years ago are two very different things...but you already knew that. You just don't want to admit that you need to move on.

R77 It's socially-inculcated irresponsibility, like an adult who never grew up, who whinges endlessly and bitterly that all of their problems are the fault of their parents.

And forget about figuring out if they are owned or not, it's a very deep layer of culture, and you can't get straight answers from anyone. Its of course much clearer in Mauritania. Libya is dicy again since the "Father of Africa" Gaddafi and his lip service to pan-african civil rights is a fading memory.

R74 It might also help to remember that all over the Arabic-speaking Muslim world, the word for an African or anyone with very dark skin is "abid", slave.

R58, they do. They got rich as hell from slave labor and share cropping. They created some banks which eventually got bought out by Nations Bank and the farm is still making money with pine trees, pine straw and a hunting camp. They did pay for the college educations of a couple generations of the sharecroppers and it's helped, but they'll never be as wealthy as my husband's family

“Is something a secret, if everybody knows all about it?” Family Name is a Sundance award winning documentary from 1997 done by Mackie Alston, a gay man, and his search to understand the legacy of his family having been one of the largest slave owners in North Carolina and having gone to school with Black children with the same last name as him. It was shown on PBS on their POV program. It’s very powerful and amazing for how early it was done in this conversation. I do recall a twist at the end like in Sarah Polley’s family documentary, but I don’t recall what exactly it was.

Women didn’t have the right to vote until after black men. So.

[quote]Studying your past and blaming all the problems in your life on a past that ended over 150 years ago are two very different things...but you already knew that. You just don't want to admit that you need to move on.

When you study the past, you realize why you have so many obstacles in the present. Racism just didn't suddenly disappear.

I’m glad that my mother taught me at a young age that life isn’t fair. So many people missed out on that lesson.

So true, R84! Now it is acceptable and respectable for blacks, especially academics, intellectuals and office holders to say the most racist things imaginable. We have certainly come a long way.

[Quote] I’m glad that my mother taught me at a young age that life isn’t fair. So many people missed out on that lesson.

Life is unfair because someone makes it unfair. You have to fight for fairness, not just sit back and take it

R87, that is one of the most immature things I've read on DL...and that's saying something. Hate to break it to you but unicorns aren't real either.

R88, huh?

British Royal Governor Lord Dunmore promised via his Declaration that slaves joining the side of the British against their revolutionary masters would be awarded their freedom. This is but one example of why the slavocracy played such an important role in the Revolution and the creation of the United States. American slavery was a most efficient form of capitalism ever devised, and its beneficiaries weren't about to surrender their wealth and status without a fight. The Constitution, which came about a decade later, gives disproportionate power to the slavocracy and their states. E.g. the Electoral College; the composition of the Senate, the filibuster, etc. We are still living with this lopsided arrangement today--and it may be the death of us.

Slavocracy, R90? Can you please give context and the reasons why you posting this?

Look at that hot black slave-man in R28! I like to think my dad's slaves would have had a big smile when I snuck into their shack every night and gave them a hell of a blow job.

When is the expired by date on slavery in this country ? 200 years ? 300 ? Are they still going to be bitching about slavery in 2221 ? Is there anything we can do,any money we can give them to just shut the fuck up about it already ?

R93 - even after everything they've been given over the past 55 years, some giant reparations payment will only be met with "well, it's a start".

Over a century ago Booker T Washington predicted Al Sharpton and Joy Reid

What happened to the prosperous and growing black communities that existed across the country in the early and mid-20th centuries? All the articles just blame nebulous racism and gentrification but, if these communities were already established and prosperous, what was the racism and gentrification that supposedly caused this? Did the black business and homeowners sell to a bunch of white racists who then ran them off? If that's the case, why are those areas now black, crime ridden neighborhoods instead of white ones?

I also wonder what whites did to cause 70-80% of black children to be born out of wedlock, with a huge percentage of them being born to teenage mothers?

And, what caused the rich black people to leave those areas as soon as they could instead of keeping their capital in those communities?

Also, how exactly did the whites cause all the black on black crime? Thousands of more black men are killed by other black men every year than all the cops combined but, eh, still the fault of whites, right?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think in most/all southern states, slaves could be owned only by individual free men, and unambiguously could NOT be owned by corporations. A sole proprietor could own slaves in his own personal name, but ownership of slaves could not be jointly held, except by a married couple. Businesses could -- and did -- LEASE slaves and/or pay their owners for services rendered by them, but the fundamental point was that a slave had to have an unambiguous human owner (or married couple owners).

Basically, even in the antebellum South, it was understood that allowing a soulless entity to own humans was fundamentally wrong, even IF an average plantation was de-facto almost the same thing.

Southerners were aware of things like slave-breeding by traders, and most were privately horrified by the thought of commercial slave-breeding (when they thought about it, which was rarely), even IF they did the mental gymnastics required to accept slavery itself as "ok". It's one thing to rationalize going through the motions of "caring" for slaves, and another matter entirely to allow businesses to factory-farm slaves like livestock.

[quote] I also wonder what whites did to cause 70-80% of black children to be born out of wedlock, with a huge percentage of them being born to teenage mothers?

Look to the Great Society to answer that and your other questions. The KKK could never have conceived such an effective plan to destroy black America than the subsidies of every self-destructive behavior that has made the black community what it is today.

R96 In regards to your first paragraph, I think you could find some answers within the large body of recent scholarship, books, documentaries, articles and even popular culture portrayals of the Tulsa Race Massacre that have been brought to the forefront in the last decade. It might end up being the largest and most prominent of its kind, but I think it’s going to be just the tip of the iceberg and scholarship will eventually emerge of events like this happening in many, many places throughout the United States.

[Quote] I also wonder what whites did to cause 70-80% of black children to be born out of wedlock, with a huge percentage of them being born to teenage mothers?

Whites relegated blacks to the lower class. This is a function of class, not race. In fact, far more teen pregnancies occur in white kids than black kids—in both cases, class is the common factor

[Quote] When is the expired by date on slavery in this country ? 200 years ? 300 ? Are they still going to be bitching about slavery in 2221 ?

Look! A white guy bitching about slavery while pointing out how bad black people apparently are!

[Quote] even after everything they've been given over the past 55 years, some giant reparations payment will only be met with "well, it's a start".

What would you do if your forefathers had been enslaved because of the color of their skin and that you are still stuck in the lower classes because of that legacy?

Oh, it’s okay… let’s move on…

[Quote] Also, how exactly did the whites cause all the black on black crime? Thousands of more black men are killed by other black men every year than all the cops combined but, eh, still the fault of whites, right?

Violent crime the world over is a function of class and poverty, not color, but you don’t give a shit about black on black crime do you?

It’s the same with white on white crime

[quote]Violent crime the world over is a function of class and poverty, not color,

Uh, no. Crime is a function of opportunity. Whether in the ghetto or in the halls of finance or the of corridors of government. Poverty and "class" are meaningless to those who want to obtain what others have by exerting the least effort. It might help to by remember that in most of the world, one acquires wealth, not by earning it, but by appropriation through power and control.

It would be surprising if we weren’t still dealing with the racial legacy of slavery in 2121 and possibly 2221.

White Americans bitch about ghetto black people all the time. But they forget they created ghetto black people. Instead of allowing black Americans to go to white universities after slavery ended when blacks started going to school and getting educated. They we're bared from attending educational institutions with whites.

So that's how we got HBCU's. Schools which we're under funded and still are by the federal government. Blacks also weren't allowed to live in the suburbs, relegating them to the slums and ghettos. Where there would be crime and poverty because again, no money. Creating a culture of generational poverty and struggle. People love to over look the fact that the system intentionally created a state where black people we're systematically held back because of the color of their skin.

And let's not forget about the discriminatory GI bill which excluded black soldiers from getting what their white counter parts received after the 2nd world War etc. This country screwed black people at every turn and it's always been intentional. But people think black people should just get ever it.

There's never been any justice in America. This country is going to have to be destroyed and burned to the ground for that to occur. There will never be justice on stolen land or a country founded on slavery and hatred of other people.

This country's fall will be spectacular when it finally does happen. And China will play a huge role in AmeriKKKAs end!

R95 To bad he couldn't predict Trump, Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Meygyn Kelly, Laura Ingraham, and the entire white right wing American media apparatus, constantly preaching to poor white trash that they're the "real" victims of American society and it's them who should be free to feel grievances about American life.

Eventhough they have white skin, and have let that very fact go to shit and waste. White people have nothing at all to feel grievances about in America.

Fuck them!

R107 gets to shit on a few hundred million whites in her characteristic racist way.

Because she's a racist.

[quote]People love to over look the fact that the system intentionally created a state where black people we're systematically held back because of the color of their skin.

R106 So were Jews, Hispanics, East Asians, First Nations and women. But of all of them, only blacks continue to blame everyone else for their misfortunes.

R109 is resistant to learning. Look upthread at most of R98 - R106. Somebody is trying to bring the truth, and you won't listen.

R110, you are the one that isn't listening. All of those groups R109 listed were also discriminated against in the exact same ways that any living black person can claim to have been discriminated against. Black people always go back to slavery because it's the most convenient way to silence the fact that a whole bunch of other communities have experienced similar discrimination over the last 50 years. As soon as the conversation moves to the crimes against your ancestors instead of living, breathing people, you lose.

There is no legacy from slavery. There are only modern day discriminatory practices. Deal with those instead of pretending that what happened to your great-great-great-great grandfather just haunts you every day. If it really does haunt you every day, seek out psychological help because that's insane. Instead of racism, you should start focusing on classism and income/wealth distribution since that is the actual root of many of the problems in this country faced by all races but doing so takes away the "special" slavery issue that blacks cling to at the cost of being taken seriously. So, continue going with "I'm a loser because my great-great-great-great grandfather was a slave" narrative and watch the black community continue to fade into the background.

It's kind of ironic that we are in the last screaming death throes of both the white male cult of superiority and the black cult of victimhood at the same time. Appropriate.

I'm pretty sure most First Nations people know that white men fucked them over.

What are you talking about "first nations"?

We've been treated by shit for the entire history of humanity by every creed and color of man. Where are our reparations?

R111 You asshole. All of those people have different beginnings in America then African Americans do. Everyone else came here willingly, black people didn't.

The African American experience is a totally different one to anyone else in America. You can never compare them to anyone else, it's just stupid to do so. But keep going for it.

American history will never be denied. No matter how hard you try. The past is very much alive today in various ways. When you look at laws designed in this country to do damage to the very people who have been attacked in America for the last 4 plus centuries. You can try as hard as you want to be little the past, but you won't. There's just to much there to unpack. And historians talk about it constantly because these are very important parts of American history.

I guess you're one of these anti history loons on the right? Of course you are.

I think it's tiresome when people focus on one aspect of American History and try to make everything going forward tainted in some way and therefore bad. You won't be winning hearts and minds by constant negativity and historical revisionism.

No nation has a clean history if you look at it with modern purity standards. Everything is and was a product of its time, and while it's helpful to know what happened and why, slavery and black people in America is just one aspect of a much larger story. It's getting 99% of the oxygen now, though.

[quote]I think it's tiresome when people focus on one aspect of American History and try to make everything going forward tainted in some way and therefore bad. You won't be winning hearts and minds by constant negativity and historical revisionism.

Dear Idiot at R116, People aren't trying to make "everything going forward tainted" -- they're correctly pointing out that 246 years of colonial and sovereign American slavery have had an enormous impact on this nation, its very formation, its laws, its government, its elections and its ability to function as a truly equal society. That doesn't mean "everything" is bad, it means that we need to acknowledge that we have never dealt honestly with the issues of race and equality, and even today there is enormous, even murderous, resistance to doing so.

I think it's tiresome when people focus on preserving their ignorance instead of going forward with a goal of rectifying past errors.

R117, you can keep saying the same shit but no one but members of the victimhood cult believes that things that happened 150-350 years ago are having any impact today. Modern racism, yes but that doesn't make a special class of people, so you always have to through in "historical racism". Even black people who've come here over the last 100 years think African Americans should shut the fuck up with their whining about the great-great-great-great grandfather's travails and deal with their own lives and the actual racism today that affects them. Name any other group that whines this much about their entire lives being ruined by things that happened hundreds of years ago while taking zero responsibility for the vast problems within their own community. Their ancestors who were slaves would be ashamed of 90% of the black community today. "You mean, you can go to school for free and you don't?" "You mean, you can go to college and you don't?" "You mean you can have bank accounts and start your own businesses but you don't?" "You mean you can date and marry whomever you want and not get murdered for it?" "You mean you are allowed to be a Congressperson, Senator, or even President?"

I dare you to come up with five things that have vastly improved for blacks in America since 1860. Bet you won't do it because it doesn't fit the historical victim narrative you are so invested in.

R118 sounds like the kind of person who would argue that gays are not entitled to 'special rights' like marriage.

One of the best threads right now on DL.

But now we need more solution-based comment.

[quote] But now we need more solution-based comment.

Build a time machine. I'll get right on it.

R119, when is the last time that gays asked for anything beyond the same rights as everyone else? Never heard a single gay person ask for reparations for the centuries that their brethren weren't allowed to marry and gain all the financial and cultural benefits inherent to that institution. Gays want to be treated like everyone else which is exactly what the goal should be. No better. No worse. The current black rights movement (and the T movement) are the ones clamoring for more that equal. They've even changed the word used from equality to equity because they are not seeking equality. They are, literally, seeking special rights. So, you are wrong.

Is it still legal to use slaves as collateral?

And do you get a higher dollar amount for men than womenfolk?

R122. Gays are rarely born to other gay people. The results of prejudice are not passed down from generation. Most gay people are born to straight people who are not limited by prejudice in obtaining an education or accumulating wealth. If black parole were randomly born to whites people, the position of blank people might be wore different

Pleasure me you foreclosed ebony wench!

R124, that makes no sense at all. Are you referring to inheritance? Gay people actually have the special discrimination of getting to be hated by their only family for who they are. Do you know a lot of black people whose families disowned them for being black? Gay people can literally still be discriminated against for jobs and housing in this country. For the history of this entire world, gays were beaten, raped, and killed for being gay. Still are today in plenty of places.

How are black people kept from education? They are actually overrepresented now in higher education due to affirmative action. From the US Census Bureau as of 2019:

[quote]Of just the current undergraduate college student population, 52.9 percent are non-Hispanic white, 20.9 percent are Hispanic, 15.1 percent are black, and 7.6 percent are Asian, while graduate students are 61.2 percent white non-Hispanic, 13.6 percent Hispanic, 12.3 percent black, and 11.2 percent Asian.

So, it's whites that are actually underrepresented as a percentage of population and blacks slightly overrepresented. Even at the graduate school level, the percentages reflect the numbers in the population as a whole. So, again, where are the oppressed blacks being kept out of education? I'm so sick of people just flat out lying to keep the victimhood cult going. If you want a college education in America there is literally nothing stopping you.

[Quote] Crime is a function of opportunity.

No, crime is caused by people who have little opportunity in life. A middle class or upper middle class person, no matter the color, will not steal just because the opportunity may arise.

Whites have kept Blacks at the bottom of the social ladder, keeping their wealthy low, and their power even lower.

All around the world, it’s those lowest on the social ladder that commit the most crime.

R128 Haiti,Somalia,the entire continent of Africa,etc,etc,etc are all black and run by blacks. How are white folks at fault for their shithole destitute countries? Oh thats right,200 years ago the whites ran South Africa so the fact the blacks have controlled it since the early 90s (and destroyed the economy and agriculture to the point that they have ti import food now) somehow still is the fault of the white devils.

Most shithole countries are poor, not because of the people running them, but because of the lack of natural resources to use and trade, the high rate of natural disasters, and high rates of infection because they are around the tropical zone.

Haiti gets hit by an earthquake or hurricane every few years. Why do you think whites were fine giving it up to blacks?

[Quote] How are white folks at fault for their shithole destitute countries?

I’m talking about whites in the US subjugating blacks in the US, but this can easily be applied to the world.

The US basically ignored Africa for trade and aid because they are Black. The second China marches in with money and influence, the US freaks out and tries to do damage control. Too fucking late

[Quote] Oh thats right,200 years ago the whites ran South Africa so the fact the blacks have controlled it since the early 90s (and destroyed the economy and agriculture to the point that they have ti import food now) somehow still is the fault of the white devils.

Of course the economy will do better when it’s really only meant to prop up the minority whites. The second it has to be expanded to help everyone, it gets spread thin. Not rocket science

[quote] the blacks have controlled it since the early 90s (and destroyed the economy and agriculture to the point that they have ti import food now)

Interesting that in the produce section of my local Loblaws I can still find oranges, lemons, limes and avocados all imported from South Africa.

Hmm... Interesting thread. Thanks, OP. Although I have personally found some of the postings here to be somewhat offensive its okay. I believe that the more the issue of US slavery is spoken about, dissected, and people just "let their hair down", so to speak, the better. It's an opportunity for many to learn--if they are open to that, think/re-think issues, and expose themselves to another point of view. It is also an opportunity to hopefully correct some misconceptions.

Here's what I don't get and maybe some of you can help me;

[quote]Some of the largest insurance firms in the US - New York Life, AIG and Aetna - sold policies that insured slave owners would be compensated if the slaves they owned were injured or killed! In 2005, JP Morgan Chase, currently the biggest bank in the US, admitted that two of its subsidiaries - Citizens' Bank and Canal Bank in Louisiana - accepted enslaved people as collateral for loans. The predecessors that made up Citibank, Bank of America and Wells Fargo are among a list of well-known US financial firms that also benefited from the slave trade. U.S. banks have recently made public apologies for the role they played in slavery.

Okay... why do these companies feel a need to apologize? I believe that we all can agree that slavery was wrong but it was what it was. Yep, I'd say it is a stain on any company's history but it happened and there is nothing that can be done about it EXCEPT maybe realize and calculate how the company benefited from the institution and therefore initiate some type of program(s) that can attempt to compensate for that history? Yes, I'm speaking on some level of reparations ie maybe an aggressive/proactive program that will not only financially lend to Black businesses but help build them too? Isn't it possible for a Wells Fargo to lend to a Black business and retain like a 25-30% interest in it and therefore have a stake in seeing that it succeeds?

I mean... an apology is nice, but... ?

Haiti's economic potential, such as it is, has been burdened since the early 19th century by crippling debt - the French demanded that enormous reparations be paid to the former slaveholders for the loss of property, or they threatened to recolonize the country. Haiti had to keep borrowing money to pay and much of the debt is currently held by US banks.

[quote]A middle class or upper middle class person, no matter the color, will not steal just because the opportunity may arise.

Damn straight!

[quote]Haiti had to keep borrowing money to pay and much of the debt is currently held by US banks.

"Borrowing money" = succession of Haiti's corrupt despots filling up their Swiss bank accounts.

Corruption in Haiti is a scourge that corrodes all attempts to establish a rule of law, a sustainable democracy, and to improve the quality of life of Haiti's people.

R134, should German car companies apologize for helping the German WWII war machine and firing Jewish managers? Or should we just forget about to move on?

Moving on without any sense of responsibility just means they won’t think twice doing it again

R138, ever thought what there is so much corruption??

Poverty

[quote][R117], you can keep saying the same shit but no one but members of the victimhood cult believes that things that happened 150-350 years ago are having any impact today.

You have to be kidding, R118...

R140 Nothing to do with poverty and everything to do with tribalism. Obtain power, treat the national treasury as a personal bank account. Same all over Africa and Asia.

Can I use my slaves to consolidate my credit card debt?

R143 Only if it’s your Amex Black Card.

[Quote] Nothing to do with poverty and everything to do with tribalism. Obtain power, treat the national treasury as a personal bank account. Same all over Africa and Asia.

The only reason the west has been able to largely avoid mass corruption in say the police dept or FBI is to give them good salaries. With a good salary, it’s tough to offer money to help a police man to do you bidding.

When you have little money, the offer of more money is always enticing. Poverty (or even the feeling of not having enough money) leads to corruption.

r145, that's true, and is why the salaries for Congress are relatively high... they basically have to maintain two households and maintain expected decorum. The members of Congress most likely to get in trouble for violating rules are the ones who are the most financially cash strapped. It's more tempting to "compromise" on a rule when you're two payments behind on your DC condo's mortgage & desperate to fix the problem "one last time".

R126. Let me explain it to you in more detail. Even until quite recent decades there have been official policies to prevent African Americans from accumulating wealth, including denial of credit, exclusion from most residential areas, exclusion from high paying professions, etc. This is of course on top of centuries of unpaid labour under slavery and share cropping. Much of this not in the remote past. And these effects can be long lasting. I don’t know if you are denying that these policies existed, denying they have any effect, or that the ancestors of gay children were subject to similar discrimination. I really fail to see any pattern of gay people growing up in more impoverished homes, being forced to live in less desirable neighbourhoods as children, having parents that are less likely to have enjoyed advanced education or professional careers, or being sent systematically to substandard schools.

Yeah it was a horrible time.

[quote]Much of this not in the remote past.

Which really burns me when there are those who flippantly spew; "That was long ago. Why can't you people just move on?"

People need to be aware that there are still LIVING CHILDREN and GRANDCHILDREN of SLAVES (former slaves) and that these children and grandchildren KNEW that grandparent. Sure, the grands might have been only 12-13 years old at the time at their grandparents death but they knew them and many of them knew them well. We're just really maybe 1-4 generations out from the ending of slavery. Do we have to remind everyone that there has always been a faction that has been trying to resuscitate the institution of slavery in some fashion ever since the war ended?

Move on.

Just one example of child. This article was published October 15 , 2020.

R151 - That's a great article.

BTW, how did this guy finance his house?

Peter Mills (1861 – 1972) was the last known surviving American born into legal slavery when he died in 1972 at age 110.

Mills was born in Prince George's County, Maryland on October 26, 1861. After the Civil War he worked on his father's farm every day during the week before leaving to work in Baltimore and Washington, DC where he dug sewers and played baseball in his spare time. Mills eventually moved to Pittsburgh after first visiting in 1881. Mills died after a pedestrian accident in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania on September 22, 1972

1972, is not that long ago. Sure, someone could argue the point of what did Peter really know about slavery given that he was born in 1861 and slavery ended in 1865. But, he lived through Reconstruction and all the mess ensuing it.

I feel like we should just be going after the rich. They’re responsible for oppressing all of us no matter what color we are. They are the enemy and it’s a shame poor blacks and whites can’t unite and overthrow them.

[quote]Even until quite recent decades there have been official policies to prevent African Americans from accumulating wealth

1) Official FHA policy from 1934 was not to underwrite home loans in black neighborhoods - they made maps with the black neighborhoods in red - hence the term redlining. Since black people couldn't get subsidized FHA loans, they were forced to borrow from banks at higher interest rates, and less favorable terms. Even black veterans could not get the same benefits as white veterans.

2) The original Social Security Act of 1935 excluded domestic workers, laundry workers and other occupations that were predominately done by black people. This was a deliberate policy, forced by the Southern Democrats, to make sure that few black people would be able to benefit from Social Security. It was some years later, and gradually, that coverage was extended to these occupations.

R77 First of all, I don’t have any problems in my life. I’m more successful than any black OR white person who grew up in my neighborhood. And probably you as well.

It’s not “my problems”, it’s about racist and systematic problems in the United States people complain about.

But you already knew that too.

[quote]2) The original Social Security Act of 1935 excluded domestic workers, laundry workers and other occupations that were predominately done by black people.

Occupations that were the only ones open to Black people in many parts of the South and mandated by law

R105, people are still fighting over things that happened 2,000 years ago. “Moving on” is not a prominent part of human nature.

R153 R155 Exactly!

But white people are the biggest victims and babies and then accuse everyone else of doing it and acting like they pull themselves up by the bootstraps.

Again as I’ve said, most of the white American population is pure white trash. But white people use affluent suburban as the symbols of white people and white success. Everyone thinks they’re a fucking Kennedy and black and brown people just haven’t put in the work! Meanwhile they’re pure white trash. It’s a dysmorphia due to white supremacy giving people the idea white skin is automatic class.

Can slaves use themselves as collateral for their own mortgages?

[quote]I feel like we should just be going after the rich. They’re responsible for oppressing all of us no matter what color we are. They are the enemy and it’s a shame poor blacks and whites can’t unite and overthrow them.

Well, that is what has historically happened and brought about the biggest social and civil rights legislation. But, when you have a non-ceasing marketing campaigns that pit one against the other then....

And, R155, those problems that have had an actual affect on living people should be addressed. But, every single time these real issues are discussed the "legacy of slavery" and reparations for that are brought up. At that point, we've moved beyond reality and it muddies the actual problems faced today and, in doing so, ends the conversation because no one honestly believes that slavery is the problem. Racism is the problem. Modern fucking racism. No one with a working brain actual believes that what happened 200 years ago is what needs to be fixed because it was fixed by ending it. Address the racism from Jim Crow and onward and you might actual get somewhere. Or, you can keep beating the dead horse and get nowhere. Your choice.

Also, you all act like all white people were slave owners. Ninety percent of white people were not involved in the slave trade. Are those who came here in 1920 also responsible? How about 1950? 2000? Even black immigrants are more successful by a huge amount than American blacks. Explain that if it isn't a cultural problem with the cult of victimhood of a portion of the black community.

R96 Ignorant questions but redlining and the Vietnam War destroyed the black community in the late 60’s / early 70’s.

The with black violence is low income black people live in the city. Low income white people live in the country. There’s going to be less data on white crime when there’s no fucking cops vs. a city full of cops.

[quote]Racism is the problem. Modern fucking racism. No one with a working brain actual believes that what happened 200 years ago is what needs to be fixed because it was fixed by ending it. Address the racism from Jim Crow and onward and you might actual get somewhere. Or, you can keep beating the dead horse and get nowhere.

Honey, where do you think Jim Crow originated from? Let's start with the Southern Black Codes of 1865-1866 and work from that point.

I agree that direct reparations seem one of the least adequate solutions. For one thing, payment of the retributions would give people an excuse to say the issue is race has been addressed and further action is not required. In addition, a significant share of the population, regardless of color, will misuse any windfall, in addition, as you say, it links the country’s racial problems to slavery. More ongoing efforts such as programs targeted toward the victims of racism seem more useful and appropriate.

What if they default on the loan and the bank has to repossess the slaves?

Does the bank re-sell the slaves?

Or do they make them work as bank tellers?

R165 White people will play victims as always though.

[quote]Even black immigrants are more successful by a huge amount than American blacks. Explain that if it isn't a cultural problem with the cult of victimhood of a portion of the black community.

Here's the thing, R162... While yes, other races and ethnics have had their historical moments and points in this nation's history where they were treated awfully, and I mean... AWFULLY! The Black race of this country has been literally terrorized and by sustainable terrorism. That's the BIG difference.

[quote]What if they default on the loan and the bank has to repossess the slaves? Does the bank re-sell the slaves?

Slaves were property and so the bank would take the property and re-sell it.

R164, how far back do you want to go instead of dealing with the current issues? You can understand the timeline between things without having to continue to live in the past. Deal with modern racial issues or deal with nothing. You don't see anyone arguing with reparations that were given to the Japanese citizens who were interred in camps because they went to the actual victims it happened to. You also don't see the Asian community stuck in that past. You don't see anyone arguing with compensating the Jewish population after WWII because it was given to those who were the actual victims. The descendants of slaves today have to go back generations when they talk about slavery and then the conversation stops because no one alive today was ever a slave. No one.

R168, my comment addressed BLACK immigrants who have come here since slavery who succeed at a much higher rate than American born blacks. Are you arguing that they don't suffer from the discriminations that American born blacks suffer from? The problems with the black community in America stem from their own cultural values. They don't value education to the level of the black immigrant community. They don't value family cohesion to the level of the black immigrant community. They don't value hard work to the level of the black immigrant community. And on and on. That's just reality.

If you don't believe those things are true, then explain why the black immigrant community is so much more successful than the American born black community even though all these "horrible racists keeping the black people down" can't tell the fucking difference between the two.

[quote]You don't see anyone arguing with compensating the Jewish population after WWII

My darling, the Jewish population was compensated. The Japanese were compensated ($20K to every survivor, I believe). I don't know about Asians. Anyway, why you fail to see/understand that the modern racial issues are directly rooted in the past. I mean just look at the Ahmad Abery case of which the defense tried to justify his killing. It was from law that had been on the books of Georgia since 1863 of which the State just recently said; "Uh-Oh... Maybe we should change that..."

You can’t break cycles over night. The Native American community have been treated as poorly as blacks and still struggle with the same issues as them.

[Quote] Move on.

Should Jews also “move on” from the Holocaust?

“Move on” = please stop blaming White people although they continue to oppress you

R20 and R21 All true, and I don’t give a damn. Slavery is virtually irrelevant. Abraham Lincoln done freed all the slaves about 160 years ago. Black folk live in their own piss and shot not because of slavery, but because they choose to. Let them spend a few generations in persuit of the American dream (that means giving your children a better life than you, so they can give their children a better life etc) and then we’ll talk about slavery and racism, won’t happen however because that means working, education not having children you can afford to raise and immediate gratification….

[quote] Black folk live in their own piss and shot not because of slavery, but because they choose to. Let them spend a few generations in persuit of the American dream (that means giving your children a better life than you, so they can give their children a better life etc) and then we’ll talk about slavery and racism

HA! See, Greenwood OK. (Just one of many Black communities burned to ashes by... well, you know who)

R174 Actually yes. While the Holocaust is an important part of Jewish history and must be ever so, because if we don’t learn from and remember history it will be repeated, but Jews have for the most part moved on in order to grow and thrive (not just survive). Meanwhile, show me someone who was a slave in the south and I’ll write them a check. If you weren’t a slave, then move on. By the way 20k for each Japanese interrred is chickenfeed.

R172, your lack of reading comprehension skills makes it almost impossible to respond to you. Again, my exact point was that the Jews and the Japanese that were compensated were the ones who were actually the victims. If you can't figure out the difference, that's a fundamental issue with your mind.

And, as to another question about whether the Jews should move on from the Holocaust? Honestly, if they are still obsessed over it and their future descendants 200 years from now are still going on and on about it and asking for reparations, then yes, those future descendants should move on from the Holocaust. Let me ask you this, why aren't the Jews as obsessed with the Holocaust as American blacks are with slavery even though the Holocaust was much more recent and there are still living victims of it in the world today? The Jewish community beyond those directly affected have already moved the Holocaust into history to be learned from, not history to be profitted from.

R162

“Even black immigrants are more successful by a huge amount than American blacks. Explain that if it isn't a cultural problem with the cult of victimhood of a portion of the black community.”

The difference is first, a lot of black immigrants come from middle class or upper backgrounds in their country. The poorest people of those countries can’t afford to leave and move to the US.

The mentality that these black immigrants come over here with bare feet and make their way into the middle class is white ignorance. Yes black countries have rich people and middle class too and those are the ones who can afford to get here.

And they come from black countries. The rich neighborhoods are black, there’s no white people trying to stop them.

R180 And to add, black countries don’t have systematic racism. Lol. It’s that simple.

R179 Jews always complain they’re discriminated against.

The Jews pretty much have moved on from the Holocaust by building one of the most prosperous and advanced democratic societies on Earth. It helps they didn't make virtues of ignorance and perpetual welfare.

R176 Again, white supremacy has distorted your views.

There are places in the US that are so inbred they have their own special diseases.

And they’re not black.

The fact that white people tie themselves to a small minority of elite white people is funny.

You’re probably a social security check away from living in a cardboard box and you want to talk about black people living in their own piss and shit.

This is how white people see themselves.

And this is what most of white people really look like

Right now we’re seeing a political war in the US going on between the white liberal elite and the white trash red. And you guys want to talk about black people have all the problems and need to get over it.

Looool!

White people really have their shit together that’s why we’ve had Trump and Biden for Presidents.

[quote]UNDER segregation, black women were so rigidly excluded from good jobs that 60% of those who were employed in 1940 worked as maids. With so few other choices, their wages were lousy ($139 in current dollars for a six-day week in 1935) and their white bosses could treat them abysmally. Times have changed. In 1935, six out of ten urban white families above the poverty line in the South had a full-time domestic servant, compared with under 20% in the North. Now hardly anyone does.

Oh... but, how I so miss those days. Hattie Mae and Momma Lucy... Now, Hattie Mae could fry some chicken! That crisp! I haven't had good fried chicken like hers since she went on home to be with her Lord. Alas...

🎵 Memories... Light the corners of my mind... Misty watercolor memories... Of the way we were... 🎵

(sigh...)

R189 I would also like to point out that many of those domestics were greatly loved and very much part of the family. I knew a lady who's family kept on their housekeeper long after she was able to do much,paying her the whole time.She lived with them until the day she died. That wretched movie The Help glossed over people like her. Theres always 2 sides to every story.

R190 Is extremely delusional. I bet he's also the same type of person who believed enslaved peoples we're happy being enslaved.

You gotta watch people like poster R190. They love revisionist history. Anything to fit their narrative.

Maybe black Americans can help enslaved people alive TODAY in other countries rather than complain about the past. If a black man can become President, there is plenty of opportunity for everyone. Be glad you have the opportunities you have and pay it forward. Doing something for other people can make you wealthy in many ways.

The good ol' days...

[quote]Maybe black Americans can help enslaved people alive TODAY in other countries rather than complain about the past.

Nuh-Uh. You take care of home first.

[quote] If a black man can become President, there is plenty of opportunity for everyone.

That is why the Obama presidency was so monumental. Yes, ABSOLUTELY, there has been progress but there is still A LOT of work to do! Obama isn't the first. Yes, the first Black president but just look at history right after the Civil War. A number of Black men were legitimately elected to public office. However, you had that faction that were QUITE clear about; "Oh, no! We can't have this!" and then proceeded to do everything possible so that such an event could never happen again! Sounds familiar, right? Just look at what the Republicans of today are doing.

[quote] I bet he's also the same type of person who believed enslaved peoples we're happy being enslaved.

What? Of course they were! Just look at how delighted they are singing and dancing! I can barely contain myself!

R194 Doesn't seem like Americans are taking care of home as much as they did when our parents were younger. Community and church used to lift people. Now it's smash and grab and get mine. Sadly, it will only get worse with even more people killed and incarcerated.

Ya know, R196... I believe I do understand your sentiment and I may be able to empathize with it a bit. But, speaking only for myself, I believe things happen in cycles. People become so removed from what the fight was about regarding an actual struggle and that fight for whatever civil right that they no longer can fully appreciate all the work/effort that it has taken to gain that right.

I think that many young Black Americans cannot not really relate to the civil rights struggle, Emmet Till, and whatever else. These are things that they know about but may not be able to fully appreciate because they never lived it themselves. Tragedies like Ahmad Aubrey is almost a wake-up call. Now, that doesn't mean that they have to become Democrats. What it does mean is that such incidents brings them in closer to REALLY knowing what the struggle is/was about. I honestly cannot understand how any Black American could possibly support the Republican party of today.

But, I say the same thing about gays. Why and how on earth could they possibly support today's Republican party? We're told that we are hated and not welcomed by the religious right who basically control the party. Yet, we support these people? The people of today's Republican party? But, I say the same thing about women too. Do the women of today REALLY know/understand what earlier women went through to give them the rights that they enjoy and/or take for granted today? Heck! A woman could not even get a credit card in her own name, let alone an apartment and/or car, prior to 1972. That's NOT very long ago. How any woman supports today's Republican party (and, that doesn't mean that they have to become Democrats) is just beyond my comprehension.

R197 Just look at this thread, how could gays be so racist?

It’s just like with women. Whiteness comes before being a woman and before being gay.

Being white is more important than being gay.

R198, which is more important...being black or being gay?

R183 The Holocaust was 4 years, not 200, they also moved to a different country and there was major reform in Germany.

They also assimilated into whiteness just like the Irish and Italian did in the US.

Immigrants can climb up the ladder if they step on black people to do it.

Bernadette McAliskey was an Irish civil rights activist inspired by the black civil rights movement. When she came to the US, she was horrified by the way Irish people in America were treating black people and when she was awarded the keys to the city, she gave it to the Black Panthers.

But as far as your mentality goes, white people have never thought black people were right. Always wrong. That’s why the white mentality on racism doesn’t matter. You guys have been saying the same shit since before slavery ended.

R198, you can't assume that all the posters are DL are gay. Also, there is a lot of negatively and inferiority associated with being a woman or being gay. Whiteness might "come first" with many women and gay men because it is seen as powerful. No one wants to identify with weakness if they can possibly avoid it.

R180, so you're going to argue that white people treat black immigrants better than American born blacks? Up until now, it's been the history of slavery and the overt and covert racism by white people against black people that have kept all black people down but now it's just the American born black people? How many more generations do American born blacks need to catch up to these new immigrants who are also black? Why isn't "whitey" keeping the black immigrant down in the same way?

When the cult of victimhood keeps making more and more excuses and giving more and more nebulous explanations as to why American born blacks are the ONLY group that systematically hasn't been able to get their shit together for over a century, it just shows how weak your arguments are.

Also, your argument that all the black immigrants are rich (a lie, btw) and that is why they are not affected by all the horrible whites keeping them down actually is my argument that it is class and wealth that are the determinants of success in America, not race. So, now you're agreeing with me that race shouldn't trump class or wealth. Great. Thanks for making my point for me.

R200, do you have an excuse generator you are consulting because you've got one for everything.

R199 What does it matter? It’s double the bullshit.

Whiteness is a social construct. White supremacy is a dysmorphia that can make a white homeless person feel like they’re superior to the working black man with a home walking past them. And I’ve witnessed that myself.

It’s like trans bullshit. And no one has more of a victim mentality than white people. I feel like I’ve already posted it in this thread but surveys show white people feel more discriminated against than black people in the US. Even though there’s no evidence that shows they’re held back through housing, education, or employment.

My God, what kind of bull crap is to push that Jews have moved on from the Holocaust. It’s brought in every second sentence: “Never again!”

Blacks would like to move on but cops won’t let them

R203, it matters because that poster's point was that white people see themselves as white first before they see themselves as gay or female. So, I asked if that was different for black people. I know it's not. I was calling out that bullshit and, of course, you won't answer because the answer is that black people see themselves as black first before gay or female or whatever else just like white people see themselves as white first but you only see that as a bad thing when whites do it because you're a racist.

If you want to see true racism at work, read all the horrible things said about white people on this thread. (Cue the 'but black people can't be racist because...' idiots.)

R201 Well that’s the difference between white people and black people because blackness is not looked upon as weakness.

That’s why the whole “victim mentality” shit is so stupid. It’s just white rhetoric.

R115 completely ignores Native American citizens of USA. Who had their ancestral lands stolen from them. Who were massacred to the point of holocaust.

R206, no one said blacks weren’t racist. Everyone’s racist but white racism actually affects lives because white is the dominant, powerful culture

R204, that's because there are still people alive who remember living through it, dear. Please to try to keep up. Also, no one is saying to not remember slavery or the Holocaust. People are saying to remember it and learn from it but don't blame it for your shitty life and the shitty life of your community. The Jews don't do that. Will you think Jews are nuts if 200 years from now they are still going on and on about it. Of course they'd be considered nuts just like most of us consider black people going on and on about how slavery has ruined their lives as stuck in the past loons who can't take responsibility for themselves in any way even though they, their parents, their grandparents, and their great-grandparents never were slaves.

[Quote] it matters because that poster's point was that white people see themselves as white first before they see themselves as gay or female.

Yes the problem is, with whites grouping as white before anything else (but publicly preaching the bs that “everyone is equal in America”), it forces every other ethnicity to group itself by ethnicity for a social and political voice

[Quote] People are saying to remember it and learn from it but don't blame it for your shitty life and the shitty life of your community.

Except we can point to specific policies that have left blacks impoverished at the expense of white wealth.

Whites kept govt benefits for themselves which allowed them to pass on more and more generational wealth.

R202 Clearly you don’t know any black immigrants.

First of all, black immigrants don’t integrate into white society. They still live in predominantly black neighborhoods and multiracial cities.

I’m outside of Boston. Black immigrants still don’t have access to white neighborhoods.

And NO it’s not a lie. Black immigrants are usually middle to upper class from their country. The poor people cannot afford to come here.

“How many more generations do American born blacks need to catch up to these new immigrants who are also black? Why isn't "whitey" keeping the black immigrant down in the same way?”

Because black immigrants didn’t fight systematic racism in their country. I already said this. They already come from established families. Some already got their education. Some already have money to send their kids to private schools and colleges.

I mean I know I’m the 90’s there were a lot of jokes that Jamaicans and Haitian housekeepers were so angry because they were college educated nurses in their countries and had to resort to housekeeping when they came to the US.

Your whole argument ignores and neglects American history. Your lack of knowledge of things like redlining and education segregation is why you’re so confused. You’re asking simple minded questions you’ve never thought about but as so passionately sure you’re correct in your mentality. You’re not.

Bullshit, R211. Again you are blaming white people for what other races choose to do.

The best thing that could happen to this country is for poor people of all colors to work together but instead we're just going to keep telling poor white people they are privileged while they scrounge around with three jobs to get enough food for their kids. You can all stay willfully ignorant as to the result of doing that but the price that will be paid will be Repug rule across the land. If that's what you want, keep it up.

And, an aside, when did the "judged not by the color of their skin but the content of their character" school of racial reform lose out to the "whitey is evil, fuck whitey's privileged white ass" idiot school of racial reform?

I think descendants of slaves have a good argument about being kept out of home ownership - the kind of homes that appreciate in value, and are in good neighborhoods, and also lack of access to equal quality of public education and then higher paying occupations - for several generations. Its certainly true they did not have the same access to upward mobility through generational wealth.

This is however true in many countries - that an underclass was kept that way - for a century, or for centuries. Nobody said life was fair.

What is important is to make if fair now. Every country around the world cannot go back and redress all its crimes in its own history.

R206 But the latter part of my response answered the differences.

Black power is not the same as white power.

Feminism and gay rights and black power are all similar.

White power, white pride, whiteness is white supremacy because white isn’t real. Whiteness is a pass.

Being white first means “I want the power”. Being black first does not mean that at all.

Does that answer your question?

R214 Poor white people are racist. Again, you don’t understand American history. What you’re saying failed a long time ago.

R213, again, I'm well aware of that history and, again, you just keep making excuses. What I have been arguing all along is that blaming everything on slavery will never get anyone anywhere. The modern racism experienced by modern people still alive should be the focus but, instead, it's all slavery based bullshit. The racism from Jim Crow to modern day should be dealt with but that is not about reparations which are slavery based. That's why as soon as the discussion turns to reparations, it loses all momentum. It is seen as a moneygrab by those who just want something for nothing.

And, why don't you outline the form you think reparations should take. I'd love to hear it.

The poorer white people get, the more racist they get because they believe their whiteness gives them power over other races. I’ve already said this.

A poor uneducated white man thinks he’s better than any black man because he’s white.

R216, you don't even realize that you wrote a completely racist post, do you?

R219, maybe the problem is that the poor black man seems to have bought into the belief that the poor white man is better than him. Please outline ways the poor white people of this nation are keeping the black people down. You seem to think that poor white people have more power than poor black people. Neither have any power in this country. It is all the rich. It is their game and we are the pawns. The poor whites keep voting for Repugs. That is their role. The poor blacks keep telling the poor whites they are privileged and caused all their problems which is their role in the game. Keep it up and watch Repugs rule the land forever if that's what you want.

R218 Modern racism comes from slavery. The idea that white people are superior to black people comes from slavery. This is why it’s happening.

You want to talk about money grabbing? White people were granted billions of dollars for 30 years from the 1920s to the 1950s to move into the suburbs while black people were denied. It was called redlining.

And these white people got homes have been throwing this money back and forth in families for inheritance and education.

White flight in the cities crashed the property values in the cities and that’s how the ghettos were created. The Vietnam War, which is NEVER discussed, helped disenfranchise black families. We absolutely ignore the effects the Vietnam War had on Black Americans and what really helped create single mothers in the ghettos.

Something black immigrants didn’t go through.

R220 Do you know how much white trash makes up the police force in the US? Is that a good enough outline?

And no black man thinks the poor white man is better than them.

Here’s something poor white people don’t experience.

R221, tribalism has existed since the beginning of time. Racism did not start with slavery. And, modern day racism has zero to do with slavery. But, just keep beating that dead horse. The Repugs thank your for fulfilling your role.

[quote]And no black man thinks the poor white man is better than them.

Do they think they are better than the poor white man? Do they think they are equal to the poor white man? If they don't believe that the poor white man is better than them, then how do they believe the poor white man is powerful enough to keep them down and affect their lives to such a degree?

Either both sides of poor people start to realize that they need to come together or the rich will just continue their march to oligarchy/authoritarian rule in America. The stupid poor whites and the stupid poor blacks are playing the puppet role by continuing this bullshit but, as I've said over and over, just keep it up if the goal is permanent Repug rule across the land. Saying "all white people" is just as racist as saying "all black people". Learn that or pay the price.

The US government did truly awful things to Native Americans, but let's be honest: if Native Americans live in rural poverty TODAY, it's almost entirely self-inflicted.

I live in Broward County. My neighbors are full-blooded Seminole Indians. They're quite comfortably upper middle-class. Why? Decades ago, the tribe split. The more traditional, insular, rural faction became the new Miccosukee tribe. The proudly urban, forward-looking faction is today's Seminole tribe.

The Seminoles took the right path, and prospered because of it.

[quoe]The Holocaust was 4 years

R200 displays deplorable ignorance of the history of Jews. Jews lived and continue to live as a despised minority, discriminated against, persecuted, relegated to ghettos and finally exterminated. Europe's and America's entrenched Jew hatred, including in the black community, was in no way "reformed" or mitigated.

[quote]The only reason the west has been able to largely avoid mass corruption in say the police dept or FBI is to give them good salaries. With a good salary, it’s tough to offer money to help a police man to do you bidding.

Uh, no. Corruption is a product of both mentality and opportunity. The only reason corruption isn't more prevalent in the West is due to social inculcation that it's unacceptable. In tribal societies, such as in Africa, it's not only acceptable, you're considered a fool if you aren't stealing/corrupt. Thus the prevalence throughout Africa of corrupt ruling despots and failed societies.

Consider Russia. Corruption went nuclear in the 1990s due to their economy's collapse, but it was actually ENTRENCHED during the Soviet era when it was officially taboo, and not really driven by poverty or desperate circumstances. Soviet bureaucrats obviously weren't RICH, but it was almost impossible to get themselves into financially dire circumstances that could be legally enforced. It was mostly just an informal barter economy. Bribing a Soviet bureaucrat rarely turned a 'no' into 'yes'... it merely got your processing expedited, and increased the odds that a 'no' would include a useful explanation of WHY (so you could try again later, with better chances of GETTING a 'yes').

A similar situation exists in India. Bribing bureaucrats rarely gets you a DIFFERENT outcome, it just expedites processing & gets the answer you would have gotten anyway a little faster.

[quote][R219], maybe the problem is that the poor black man seems to have bought into the belief that the poor white man is better than him.

Bought into? Or, beaten and terrorized to such a point that it is believed?

Can I use my slaves to pay off gambling debts?

Or would they just put a lien on my human chattel until I pay back what I owe?

I'm pretty sure that banks & creditors could only put liens upon slaves, and couldn't (or wouldn't) take direct possession of them. AFAIK, even in the full-on antebellum South, pure business entities (corporations in particular) couldn't (or didn't want to) own slaves directly... the slave's chain of title & ownership had to ultimately rest upon exactly one natural person (with ownership instantly and automatically passing to the spouse, children, and human creditors in some prescribed manner).

In the case of banks, I think they pre-sold speculative future interests in unknown slaves to individual investors, so that if a slaveholder died in debt to the bank, the slave's ownership could pass through them directly to the investor (crediting the debt, and satisfying the bank's own obligation to furnish a slave).

There WERE laws governing the treatment of slaves. They were largely impossible to enforce against private individuals, but no corporation would risk the legal liability from literally owning slaves. Remember, a slave's owner had legal responsibility for a slave's actions... so if a hypothetical bank-owned slave injured someone, the bank itself was liable to the injured party.

Likewise, even in the South, it was illegal to kill slaves for merely being old, inconvenient, burdensome, or no longer profitable. In many states (including Florida), it was also illegal or very expensive to officially free slaves, and you could be prosecuted for negligence if you "allowed" slaves to escape.

On more than a few occasions, abolitionist children ended up as the legally-bound owners of inherited slaves they couldn't afford to free. Transportation of slaves across state lines was restricted, especially by northern states... partly, because they didn't want to uphold slavery within their own borders, and partly, because they didn't want slaveowners to use them as dumping grounds for slaves they didn't want to own OR pay to free officially and have those slaves end up THERE, instead.

Some abolitionist slaveholders got the idea of hiring ships to take their slaves to the Bahamas & dump them on a beach. Britain took a dim view of the practice, and did its best to stop it. Many slaves sent to the Bahamas were simply murdered by the crew & dumped overboard in international waters, which further discouraged the practice. Eventually, slave owners who did it KNEW the slaves were likely to end up dead, and they were REALLY paying de-facto pirates to do their dirty work for them.

The point is, slavery in the South was REALLY entrenched, and freeing slaves (legally) wasn't as easy as saying, "go, you're now free!" Southern states viewed freed slaves as dangerous, and Northern states didn't want them. Canada didn't (usually) kick them out, but it didn't welcome them with open arms, either. Paying a ship to take them to the Bahamas was practically a death sentence.

Putting the costs into perspective, circa 1840, it cost about $2,500 to officially & legally free a slave in Florida. That was a STAGGERING amount of money, and the cost was DELIBERATELY high to discourage freeing slaves.

To my mind there isnt a whole lot of difference between radical blacks and radical whites. They both preach hate and superiority ,they both only care about their own agenda ,they both spend all their time nursing grievances. Whats the fucking difference ?

[quote]To my mind there isnt a whole lot of difference between radical blacks and radical whites.

Your mind must be very empty.

R233, why can't you discuss things instead of just making hitjob comments? Just like the far right and the far left are both nuts. White supremacists and black supremacists are both nuts. Both extremes cause more problems than they solve if for no other reason then they just spend all their time shouting at each other to the point that they drown out everything else.

[quote] Racism did not start with slavery. And, modern day racism has zero to do with slavery

But today, when we know better, it's still written into laws. The entire "making voting safer" bs the southern states have passes are all to restrict black votes.

[quote]But today, when we know better, it's still written into laws. The entire "making voting safer" bs the southern states have passes are all to restrict black votes.

Yeah... I'm trying to follow this poster's thinking that goes on and on about "modern racism" when this "modern racism" is, and is rooted in, what has always been racism in the USA. I'm not following what differences that he/she sees and makes.

R236, who mentions “modern racism” but you?

Are you kidding, R237?

Either you have not been following this thread. Or, you're just posting nonsense in order to keep this thread active and viewable on DL. Some poster(s) have cited "modern racism" in several posts now. For example R218

Can I borrow someone else's slave to put a down payment on a Christmas layaway?

(I saw an amazing sweater at Fashion Bug, but I can't afford it until my next paycheck, and I'm afraid some other bitch will snatch it first.)

Racism is racism, no matter the source. Racism felt by blacks has mutated during the ages but it is the same evil.

Systematically, in the US, laws have been made to separate blacks from mainstream society, impoverish them, criminalize them, make them politically powerless.

"Systematically, in the US..."

The correct word is systemically, not systematically.

Words matter.

Back in the late 80s, TV's Cosby family (and Bill Cosby himself) did more to heal race relations (at least, between upper middle-class whites and upper middle-class blacks) than probably anything done since the death of Martin Luther King... by showing white people that black people could be just like them, and encouraging black people to BE just like white people.

Was it progress? Or cultural genocide?

The fact is, a slightly-drunk white person with a Rolex strolling through 1980 Harlem, Watts, Liberty City, or similar at 2am would have quickly ended up robbed or worse. It was very real, and not merely some projected social construct. It was the product of centuries of racism & a feedback loop of both black & white reactions to it.

Something like that simply doesn't, and can't, heal overnight. It takes millions of tiny steps over time. Like Uhura & Kirk on Star Trek. The Huxtable family. Paris & Nicole. It takes a sweet little old (black) lady living in a now-gentrified neighborhood who becomes "Grandma Betty" to her neighbors & bakes them cookies while they put up her Christmas tree (or, more broadly, white people make mental exceptions for a few black people, and the list slowly grows). Eventually, interracial couples and a black President cease to be scandalous & shocking.

Eventually, there are TV shows like "Black Lightning" where black people are allowed to be simultaneously black AND successful. But the path isn't straight or forward-only. It took decades of blaxploitation movies & shows to defuse attitudes first and pave the way.

[quote]. by showing white people that black people could be just like them, and encouraging black people to BE just like white people.

Huh? I stopped right there. Come again with this, please? Whaddya mean?

[quote] "Systematically, in the US..." The correct word is systemically, not systematically. Words matter.

Actually both words are proper here.

As depressing as these threads get, it's useful to remind yourself just how deeply & profoundly racist many Americans are.

I mean, white resentment is what got Donald Trump elected.

I remember a documentary about a Victorian lady who lived in London and part of her estate included investments in some number of slaves in America - can't remember how many. I don't know if she herself owned them or had helped finance their purchase? Anyway, it was like "stock" that she owned and passed on to her heirs.

The mind boggles when considering how many slaves Mr Darcy must own to have an income of 10,000 pounds a year

Well, such incidents were rather common, R246. Slaves were basically the only type of property that women were allowed to own. I forget who it was but a slaveowner died and left instructions in his will that his slaves be freed once his wife died. The wife had other ideas since the slaves were now her property and she wanted to will them to her daughter. The case went all the way to the SCOTUS that ruled in her favor.

I live in a suburb of NYC and it's amazing that, at least until the 1970's and very early 1980's, many leases specifically said "Cannot sell to Blacks or Jews"

R231 that is all fine and dandy but listen, Madame Mao, you keep your high fallutin history to your commie pinko self and don't go teaching those WOKE fairy tales to my christian children in our schools. Nobody has time for this nonsense! You want to talk all that jibber jabber take it to Portland or Gay Paree.

Does my slave earn compound interest?

Hey, guess who lives on her family's original plantation?

Amy Comey Barrett.

It's all connected.

I joined Ancestry and learned that my 2XGreat-Grandfather was a carpetbagger from Indiana who along with his brother got possession of a Louisiana plantation after the Civil War. He went broke as there were no longer any slaves to work the land.

If I use a slave as collateral for a reverse mortgage, does that mean the slave has to start walking backwards? Won't they bump into stuff?