People who were considered great artists when you were young, but are now considered hacks

Even in the 70s I think most people thought Lennon, post-Beatles, was a bore. McCartney wasn't much better either. They excelled in the Beatles because they were competing with each other.

Spielberg

Kanye West

Eddie Vedder

Wes Anderson

I think David Foster Wallace is headed this way

Madonna

Joyce Carol Oates

Keith Haring

Does anyone care about u2 anymore?

Andrew Lloyd Webber

R3: another vote for DFW

Shelley!

I think when Woody Allen dies, he will be remembered as one of the greatest American filmmakers, imo, deservedly so. The scandal will be largely forgotten.

Bob Ross

Thomas Kinkade

Anne Geddes

Christopher Radko

Suzanne Somers

Bob Hope

Hermann Hesse

Truman Capote

Philip Roth

Robert Venturi.

Philip Johnson.

Richard Meir.

I.M. Pei.

Blake 'Darling Lili' Edwards

Mike Nichols

Russell Crowe

Meryl

Michael Jackson.

Joss Whedon.

Gloria Estefan

Eric Clapton.

Lady Gaga

I think it's harder to name artists I loved when I was younger who aren't hacks.

Cobain and Elliott Smith are the only two that come to mind.

Jack Nicholson was a highly regarded actor when I was a kid. I don't know if he's widely considered a hack now, but Dataloungers seem to think so.

Robert DeNiro is on his way to hackdom.

Bob Ross was considered a great artist, r11??

M.C. Escher

People Like Mike Nichols and Woody Allen did some wonderful stuff early in their careers so I don't think it's fair to include them. Ditto Bob Hope. Later on yes.

Soupy Sales

[quote]another vote for DFW

The airport?

Wolfgang Puck

Truman Capote met a sad end, but he had true writing talent.

^ Apologies for unnecessary comma.

Bill Cosby

Michael Douglas (as an actor, not as a producer)

Definitely Woody Allen -- his movies will not hold up as they're all pretty much the same whiny neurotic messes.

Nichols has done better stuff, he will probably do better.

There's no hope at all for Jonathan Franzen. He's already fading.

Remember when Michael Cunningham was considered A Big Thing? He's just a thing now.

Time is, indeed, the best judge of talent.

Russell Crowe

Elvis Presley

Joss Whedon

Aaron Sorkin

Tim Burton

I think a few Woody Allen films will hold up: Crimes and Misdemeanors, Hannah and her Sisters, and Annie Hall.

Laurence Olivier entered the world of hackdom in his later years.

Exhibit A: "The Betsy"

Sting - why were we so impressed by him in the 80s?

John Lennon is still considered a genius.

Truman Capote seems to be taken more seriously now than he was when alive, because his writing stands on its own two feet and he’s not making social faux pas or getting into feuds.

It's sad that so few artists continue to churn out work as brilliant as their early years. It happens to pretty much all of them. Times change and they either go with them and risk losing everything that was interesting about their work to begin with or stay doing the same thing and people think of them as relics from another time. You really can't win.

[quote] John Lennon is still considered a genius.

I was not alive in their heyday, but the Beatles seem to have this aura around them like they’re gods, one level beyond human. I was watching footage from the new documentary on them and i couldn’t pull my eyes away from the screen. They remind me of Sappho, who was so famous in Ancient Greece that even though her poetry was thought to be lost for 1000 years, she stayed famous because so many documents from the period referenced her and her work. Her name continued even without her work, just growing into a legend instead of fading. That’s genius.

Lennon hardly was a hack. "Mind Games," "Watching the Wheels Go By," "Instant Karma," "Working Class Hero" and "Whatever Gets You Through the Night" ain't bad, the schlock seldom was quite as bad as McCartney's and his faux-cerebral/sincere stuff stank but he had big hits with it. I hear that matters to some.

Christian Lacroix. He had no staying power as a designer.

Well this thread is cruel. I will add that I watched American gigolo for the first time last night. Somehow I’d missed it. Richard Gere was delicious but the movie was shockingly boring.

R36 Jonathan Franzen became famous because the media and critics were desperate for him to be the modern Great American Author. They pushed their little dumpling heavily and it worked for a while but he's become quite a disappointment. The Atlantic ran a great piece on what an overrated hack he is. I was relieved when I read it because I thought I was the only one who didn't think he was a genius.

William Shakespeare's considered a hack now, right?

Ansel Adams.

The most skilled darkroom technician ever.

And a great eye for classic composition and pretty landscapes.

But photographs so perfect they seem lifeless.

R39 Regarding Sorkin, I think his best work was Sports Night and West wing. His later shows were colossal mistakes, particularly The Newsroom. It was just awful elitist narcissism. There was a good idea behind it but the main thesis of the show seemed to be that America's biggest problem is our inability to defer unequivocally to Harvard educated Great Men. It reminded me of the endless articles by overpaid mainstream journos bemoaning cancel culture while ignoring far more dire crises in our country.

R39 it is astonishing how starkly Burton went from charming, dream like and whimsical to off putting and repulsive. Alice in Wonderland and the Willy Wonka film were two of the worst I've ever seen.

R48 " Well this thread is cruel". Really? I consider it gentle and benign by Data Lounge standards.

Joyce DeWitt

R49 When was the Atlantic Franzen article? I need something to enjoy with my coffee tomorrow.

Rod Steiger, Norman Mailer

I love Alan Alda. He reminds me of my dad so he can do no wrong. He was hilarious on 30 Rock

A lot of Boomer music maybe?

Crosby Stills Nash

The Who

Grateful Dead

Clapton

Jefferson Airplane

It's tempting to add the Warhols etc of that era but strangely the art market says the opposite.

Was Alan Alda ever considered a 'great artist'? I grew up in the late 1970s/1980s and while I certainly remember him being incredibly popular and know for his political stances, I don't think anyone ever considered his 'Hawkeye' to be great 'art', especially in those times, when tv was considered decidedly lower tier entertainment.

My understanding about Woody Allen is that his early films, Bananas, etc. are held in high esteem, but everything post-Annie Hall is questionable. Though, personally I love Radio Days, Hannah and Her Sisters and Crimes and Misdemeanors...whether I would consider them 'great art' is another story...

[quote] A lot of Boomer music maybe?

Oh hell no. Some of those artists may be lousy human beings, but they were not hacks, with the possible exception of Clapton who was fond of ripping off black blues musicians. Led Zeppelin has also been called out for plagiarism, but much of their music still stands up.

Quentin Tarantino

Oliver Stone

Mike Wallace

Sandra Day O’Connor

^ Not an artist but well-respected

[quote] Though, personally I love Radio Days, Hannah and Her Sisters and Crimes and Misdemeanors...whether I would consider them 'great art' is another story

I consider Crimes and Misdemeanors art, maybe the most of all his films, because it stakes out an ethical position. And it’s fascinating because of his personal demons: if you don’t get caught, does it even matter thay you did it?

Judges are artists, their work is critique, writing, and storytelling. This is especially true of the Supremes. And O’Connor wasted her career taking equivocal positions in poorly-written opinions that have zero lasting value.

[quote]This is especially true of the Supremes.

Diane, Flo, and Mary, sure; but is it true of Cindy?

R66 R69 In the same vein but even more so you'd have to add William O. Douglas, whose lasting judicial legacy is almost nil.

I hear you on Douglas, but he can still claim Brady and Griswold, which led Roe and Obergefell…

r44 : Agreeing with you; but I'd like to add that many artists only have a limited amount to give. They give that, have a big success, and then . . . either kind of fake it on the strength of their early success(es) for the rest of their lives, or fade away and end up flipping burgers. The true greats are ever-renewing, ever-changing . . . and the frustration is that, when they refresh their creativity and change/develop, what they now give does not have the same (surface) characteristics as what people liked before, and so people don't like it . . . even though in truth the creativity is at least as rich as it was before. Yes, you really can't win.

Radio Days

Another Woman

The Purple Rose of Cairo

Bullets Over Broadway

I think all of these are among Allen's enduring films. They are not only original but very entertaining.

Liza Minnelli. I think people wanted her to be great because of her mother, but she was just great camp. She would never be successful today.

Suzanne Somers for sure. I was going to cap on a tranny on TikTok but then I told her she looks like Suzanne somers and she was like who’s that? And then looked and said ‘thank you!!!’ That shit was funny now I like her.

Kevin Spacey

Henry Rollins

Robin Williams. He was heralded as a genius early on, but looking back now at his movies and standup routines, he was pretty bad. Mrs. Doubtfire is his only lasting movie, and it isn't all that good. I don't really see that many people talking about him anymore.

Robin Williams was best in his straight roles like Garp and that other film I can’t remember.

Eddie Murphy.

Chevy Chase.

Al Franken.

If Stuart Smalley is not great art I am not sure what is.

Hesse? Are you kidding me? Read The Glass Bead Game and his poetry, which is considered among the greatest of the 20th century

Armie Hammer we definitely watched him go through a drug induced mental breakdown. I liked him and I hope he recovers and makes CMBYN 2.

Ruth Gordon. She had a tendency to overplay the role, just a bit.

R1- Not so much competed as complimented each other.

Plenty of people still talk about Robin Williams. Jumanji, Mrs. Doubtfire, Aladdin... still beloved by people who grew up in the '90s. Mrs. Doubtfire and Jumani still air regularly on television. I still hear people talk about how much they loved Williams in Good Morning Vietnam, Dead Poet's Society and Good Will Hunting.

Kurt Vonnegut

John Updike

R49 I think this was it

Actually I meant the link to be for r56. Old article but it holds up.

G. B. Trudeau

Jane Pauley

Matthew Perry

David Foster Wallace is then, now, and forever a genius.

I can't remember when Jane Pauley or Matthew Perry were ever considered great artists.

R43, When contacted for a reaction after Truman Capote died in 1984 at the age of 59, Gore Vidal commented "Good career move."

[quote]Robert DeNiro is on his way to hackdom.

R25, he's been there since around 2002.

Woody Allen isn’t considered a great filmmaker because of these scandals? That’s some kind of bullshit.

20/30 years from now that will be largely forgotten and he’ll be remembered for his work.

R98, Fatty Arbuckle is best remembered today for his scandal and that happened in 1921.

R99 they don’t really merit comparison.

R100, Arbuckle was a major star in his day, sweetie.

"He worked with Mabel Normand and Harold Lloyd as well as with his nephew, Al St. John. He also mentored Charlie Chaplin and discovered Buster Keaton, Monty Banks and Bob Hope. Arbuckle was one of the most popular silent stars of the 1910s and one of the highest-paid actors in Hollywood, signing a contract in 1920 with Paramount Pictures for $14,000 (equivalent to $181,000 in 2020)."

R85 Yes, they did an autopsy after she died -- I know, how could they tell -- and found her stomach was full of scenery.

[quote] Arbuckle was one of the most popular silent stars of the 1910s and one of the highest-paid actors in Hollywood, signing a contract in 1920 with Paramount Pictures for $14,000 (equivalent to $181,000 in 2020)."

I went and bought myself a Pierce Arrow

And waved to all my fans in the streets!

John Mayer🤢🤢

Streisand will be remembered as a tremendous talent who frittered it away in progressively more mediocre films and shlocky albums.

No one under the age of 50 gives two shots about Streisand.

She was wonderful and very successful for a short span of time (in the grand scheme of things) and that applies to almost everyone mentioned.

The exception may be Warhol and the Beatles

The time of Old timey talent having a big drawn out careers and having grand moments is long passed. (See Sinatra)

Steve Jobs.

Jack Welch.

Bill Gates.

Carl Sandberg

I was going to add him. But it just seemed mean.

LUCY!!!

James Lapine

John Doyle

R92 r93 you forgot Deborah Norville and David Spade

David Steinberg was considered an edgy, topical comedian of his time, but clips of his shtick are cringeingly unfunny now.

Shia LaBeouf

Timothée Chalamet

Disagree about Woody Allen - I think some of his later films are brilliant, eg Match Point , Blue Jasmine and Wonder Wheel. Also very worthwhile are Alice, Everyone Says I Love You, Deconstructing Harry, Whatever Works, Mighty Aphrodite.

Bruce Springsteen.

Early in his career, he was considered a lyrical sage for the times, and as he rose to fame he came to be revered as the urban prophet of Monmouth County and America's great suburban sprawl. Now, not so much.

Also:

Elton John

Billy Joel

Will Rogers.

Roy Rogers.

Fred Rogers.

Bob Dylan

Dare I say it, but didn't Judy enter the hackdom universe after Carnegie Hall in 1961?

Supreme Court Justices and tech billionaires are not (nor have they ever been) considered "artists."

R117, Don't even think of adding me.

JD Salinger Bret Easton Ellis La Crawford’s latter films and that little bitch Christina destroyed her legacy

The guys from REM.

R120 You don't think Steve Jobs was putting on a performance up there on stage in his black turtleneck? They were all great actors focused on creating an image that would get them on the Court or running a megacorporation.

Yohji Yamamoto, Issey Miyake, Rei Kawakubo

[quote] You don't think Steve Jobs was putting on a performance up there on stage in his black turtleneck?

That's not a "great artist," except metaphorically.

But if you're just going to nominate any sort of person by speaking metaphorically, why stop there? Why not nominate a ballpeen hammer? It "performs" a task!

Ballpeen hammer.

Who thinks Alan Alda a hack OP?

R95 Seriously? Matthew Perry did a lot of writing on the friends series. He definitely helped create a lot of the humor based upon his writing and suggestions with the scripts. Even the cast and writers commended Matthew on being a phenomenal writer and comic. Friends has become a legendary. So, that is why I added Matthew. You may not have watched the series, but the comedic humor was amazing. Sounds cheesy, but it’s true.

Woody Allen a hack, are you serious? He is the greatest filmmaker alive today. The quality of his films might variate, but have you seen Wonder wheel, it is from 2017. and a great film. And Jasmine French. It is not a 70 s movie it is a masterpiece from 2013th.

The fact that you Americans cancelled him now that he is old for the same thing (and if it truth it is the most horrible crime) your institutions failed to prosecute him when he was in the peak of his power doesn't make him a has been.

On the contrary, the guy is Chekhov of cinematography.

Luckily, he is not cancelled in my country and I watched Jasmine French on TV again two days ago, with may little girl, pekingese, in my lap.

R130, it's called Blue Jasmine. R115

R131 Ok. I made a mistake because it was translated as Jasmine French in my country.

r116: Billy Joel was always considered a hack.

Hey R131, if you are in Europe (like me), watch Midnight in Paris. It shows Paris in a very beautiful idealised way. The ending is very funny, though the theme of the film is serious, the tendency to idealise the past.

R115

And history doesn't remember John Lennon as hack, no matter the few not so good solo albums, but as one of the greatest artists of 20th century. he was considered to be the brain of the Beatles and author of better half of Beatles songs.

So, your list is rather strange.

Carrot Top

Sam Kenison

R135, In years to come, John Lennon will best be remembered for the way he died.

Same goes for Natalie Wood, Sharon Tate, Rock Hudson, James Dean, etc.

Harry Reems

Honestly, the interest in 20th century musicians and actors is fading with Gen Z and many millennials - unless it’s a young person who is into film or pop/rock music history, these age groups don’t seem to care much about what came before, jazz may be the exception.

Gen X and Boomers were more exposed to parents’ and/or grandparents’ tastes and idols due to less choices in entertainment and technology.

Linda Lavin Bonnie Franklin

SHIELDS AND YARNELL!

Bob Dylan hasn’t faded yet—he was still able to make a major splash with his song at the beginning of quarantine. And he won the Nobel just a handful of years ago.

I agree on Bruce Springsteen, although the album he released after 9/11 manages to capture the emotions of that year better than most art made about it.

Vintage clothes by Yohji Yamamoto and Issey Miyake are still selling for very high prices, I think they have a claim to still being considered geniuses.

Judges and famous trial lawyers engage in far more performance than I think the general public sees. There are a lot of former/failed actors in law schools and a lot of opinions that are part-vanity exercises for judges—Kennedy’s flowery language in Obergefell, Roberts quoting Bob Dylan (while correcting his grammar - lol), all of Scalia’s writing, which was designed to get people talking about how “clever” he was.

[quote]Billy Joel was always considered a hack.

You're nutz.

I still think Billy is a genius—maybe not an intellectual, but a genius of popular music. Piano Man, for all that it’s driven bartenders nuts over the last thirty years, is like some kind of drug for the pleasure center of my brain.

Pia Zadora.

MacCartney

Neil Simon was always a hack, at least as a playwright. His plays are all extended sitcoms or sentimentality (the autobiographical stuff).

Phillip Roth did some great later life writing. He will be read and remembered whereas many of his contemporaries like Updike and Bellow were forgotten the moment they were buried.

[quote] Robin Williams was best in his straight roles like Garp and that other film I can’t remember.

He is so good as a dramatic actor. I find his comedy insufferable.

Isaac Mizrahi

Sid Ceasar and Ernie Kovacs

By the '70s both were hailed as the comic geniuses of early television, but today their routines seen like stale, smarmy vaudeville.

Some of these names are laughable. Just because idiotic Gen Z thinks Woody Allen, Truman Capote, JD Salinger are "problematic" or whatever doesn't mean they're hacks. The impact of Bob Dylan (who won a Nobel less than five years ago!) or even Bruce Springsteen won't ever go away. I'm not even going to justify the Vonnegut comment with a response......

That being said, totally agree with Neil Simon.

Jodie Foster

R26 He was. And I don't know what that person is talking about. No one considers Bob Ross to be a hack.

Why is Alan Alda a hack?

Orson Welles - A true genius who peaked much too early. He allowed his personal life and food/alcohol addictions to overtake and rule his existence. He ended his life broke and relying on the kindness of friends. His death received minimal coverage since the very recent death of Rock Hudson was garnering massive media attention.

R156, Orson Welles was absolutely NOT a hack though. In the late 50s, he had Touch of Evil, maybe the last American film noir classic. And then he had The Trial in the early 60s. And isn't F for Fake also considered a classic by many?

R156 As someone who studied film in college, Welles is revered today and not just for Citizen Kane, at least in movie loving circles. Touch of Evil is considered a masterpiece to many. His unfinished project "Written on the Wind" was released to universal critical acclaim. A lot of his foreign movies like The Trial or Chimes At Midnight have gotten the love they never did during his time, as well as his more out there stuff like F is For Fake (my personal favorite after Kane).

[quote] No one considers Bob Ross to be a hack

R152 Bob Ross was, is and will always be considered to be a hack.

Just because no one you know doesn't think so, does not make it true. He was a "great artist" in masterfully building his brand that targeted the masses of frustrated artist wannabees and the Grandma Moses set.

I meant "The Other Side of The Wind" - I recently rewatched Written on the Wind, lol

oops. ^^ The above comment was meant for R154.

Bob Ross is neither a genius nor a hack, he didn’t claim to be anything other than what he was, a gentle guy who enjoyed teaching very basic painting technique for amateurs or hungover people watching tv on the couch.

If you change hacks to forgotten, you’re on to something

Also, as time moves on, taste and what is cool changes. Someone upthread mention a comedian and how his act sounded so bad now. Comedians are truly of the moment and as time passes their original act that made them famous are completely out of date.

Actually R162, you are correct. He didn't purport to be, nor did he ever see himself as an artist on the highest of planes. So, I stand corrected. He wasn't really a hack at all taking that fact into account.

Coldplay is the best recent example I can think of. Their first album was very acclaimed and rightfully so. As their career went on, they transfromed from a rock band to a generic pop band making bland, shitty, repetitive music. They truly sold out to become a "staidum pop" band.

The only person who considers Bob Ross a great artist is Ginny in billing

R159 Maybe you should stop hanging out with cunts

Bob Ross was to painting what John Tesh is to music.

Thomas Kinkade is a much better fit for this category than Bob Ross.

Again, who ever considered Thomas Kinkade "great art"?

Well, he did!

Ross and Kinkade were the Wonder Bread and Velveeta Cheese of the art world. I have more respect for Ross, though, because as someone posted, and I subsequently agreed, that he had no pretensions about who he was.

Bob Ross constantly talked how we, the viewers, can do what he is doing, and encouraged people to paint like he does, sunce it's easy, you morons. And no, we can't do what he did cause we're not as good as artists as he was and no, it's not easy.

Bob Ross is a divisive figure on the DL

Andrew Lloyd Webber

Paul Williams

John Williams

When did Sondheim last compose anything new?

All he does is oversee revivals of shows he wrote 40-50 years ago.

Making something new has nothing to do with it, R175. Either the work was originally considered art and now is or is not is the question OP raised. By your definition Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach are hacks because they haven't written anything great in the last 50 years....

R177, Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach have been dead for hundreds of years.

Sondheim, as far as we know, is alive.

Woody Allen has not been considered a hack.

He’s only been considered cancelled.

R177: You assumed the contents of your blathering based upon my seven word comment? You win today's "What An Ass!" prize with nine hours to spare.

Go take a walk to find the meds cart or something and then come back to post those results. Tick tock.

[quote]Dare I say it, but didn't Judy enter the hackdom universe after Carnegie Hall in 1961?

No.

Some of her most breathtaking singing was done on her show. I'm thinking of her Vic Damone "Kismet" medley duet. I think it is stunning, they are both at the very top of their game.

I'll "MARY!" myself now!

Andrew Lloyd Webber is a good pick. He was considered a genius when Cats and Phantom premiered, and now both of those shows are regarded as dreck.

Hissssss r182!

Barbara Bennett committed suicide at 52

[quote] On August 8, 1958, five days before her 52nd birthday, Bennett died after what the media described as an unidentified "long illness" in Montreal.[2][3] Over the course of her life, Bennett attempted suicide four times. As the circumstances surrounding herself were vague and Bennett's sister Joan refused to discuss the details of her death, rumors arose that Bennett had finally succeeded in ending her life.

Oops wrong thread

Which thread, r185? I am intrigued.

Here ya go r186 😘

R122 You’re absolutely wrong about Salinger.

Sorry to say this, but Mick Jagger and Keith Richards. Inasmuch as they are filling stadiums with adoring fans, all they are offering is material they wrote up to 50-60 years ago.

R189: The Stones are Coasters not hacks.

Had written a whole long detailed comment about the career of Bryan Adams, and the page refreshed before I could hit post😡always copy/paste kids!

Anyway the Cliffsnotes:

-He was always middle-of-the-road mainstream poprock tbh, so I’m aware his inclusion in this thread as a ‘great artist’ is defo pushing it. Still, when young he also had a sexy downhome edge that made him stand out, had classic hit after hit in the charts for years, and garnered a huge diverse fanbase, so I think there’s a case for him;

-That said, Mutt Lange production/collab likely made him sound good/better than he actually was, though (Mutt made Def Leppard sound good, and that takes genius);

-Ymmv but to me Adams’ early-mid period albums CUTS LIKE A KNIFE (1983), RECKLESS (1984), INTO THE FIRE (1987), and WAKING UP THE NEIGHBOURS (1991) should be seminal listening for mainstream retro pop-history fans. They didn’t break any ground or change the world, but they deliver everything you want in spades in a decent album of the genre;

-Bryan hit his peak writing pretty ballads for soundtracks (SPIRIT: STALLION OF THE CIMARRON from 2002 is genuinely beautiful and should have won more awards). Again ymmv on ‘Everything I Do’ as it splits even the most staunch fans (personally, I detest it), but it was undeniably an absolute smash and is now a canonised 20th C. Western pop ballad;

-Beyond the turn of the Millennium he has struggled to release anything interesting or solidly good. Imo his last passably-listenable and novel album was ROOM SERVICE (2004, his 10th) and even that was sort of insipid and self-referential;

-Beyond the mid-late 00s musically-speaking he became a lame cover-version of himself, presumably to appease his dwindling Frau fanbase and focus on other parts of his life;

-His latest single ‘So Happy It Hurts’, released a few months back, is execrably, painfully bad. Young Bryan would be embarrassed by it, I’m sure;

-Nowadays he’s far better at being a celeb photographer, a geriatric dad (he’s in his 60s and he’s got little daughters under 15) and Canadian icon philanthropist than a pop songwriter. Oh well, he had a good enough run and made shittons of money that will make his and his daughters’ lives very comfortable until the end, so I’m sure he doesn’t care.

It’s just funny to me that I remember him being a big deal and a gold standard in pop when I was a little kid, and now he’s an embarrassing footnote. That’s life, I guess😢

George RR Martin James Redfield Norman Lear Mel Gibson

Most artists reach a point where their creative output peaks and then wanes. People tend to get more conservative and less exuberant and experimental with age; creativity dries up as we get paralysed by the weight of expectation. I don’t think this means artists are hacks…just that their best years are behind them creatively?

R112 not saying that David Spade is a worldbeating comedian, but his current output still makes me chuckle. At least he’s got his own unique style and he can tell a story, something lacking in most comics these days.

It's so embarrassing to admit but in the 1980s I thought Oliver Stone was a good director. I saw two of his films again recently and realized. well, he's not. At all. He reminds me of those huge, overblown hairstyle.styles of his time -- just way, way over the top. Nothing subtle or intelligent, just a lot of pompous dialog and awkward, excessive action. I can't imagine any of his movies ever being considered good again.

All four of the artists mentioned in OP are great. They have each created things in their lifetimes that last. Hacks, Jesus what nonsense.

Sally Struthers

Oliver Stone maker of pretentious often paranoid, awkward filsm-hack.

Bryan Adams-somewhat talented mid cult singer who was never promoted as the second coming of anything, not a hack.

Lou Reed

Robert Reed

R199 Lou Reed isn't considered a hack. An asshole, sure. But people knew he was an asshole when he was still alive. He's still considered one of the best songwriters and one of the most important musicians we had.

R123 Why would guys from REM be hacks? Michael Stipe is annoying and full of himself, but their music is still as good as it was when released.

Lou Reed definitely coasted.

Liz Phair is talented, but less face it, she's a hack. One incredible album and equally brilliant demos cannot fill an entire career.

R204 Mary Margaret O’Hara would like a word with you.

DL heroine Pauline Kael when asked why she retired said, 'So I don't have to see another Oliver Stone movie.'

In the everyone's wrong but me category I consider Interiors and Stardust Memories two of Allen's best films.

Lou Reed was brilliant, if only for the Banana Album with The Velvet Underground (who are STILL considered hugely influential that they got a 2021 doc!) but albums like Transformer and Berlin are considered masterpieces as well. Again, it's because so many aped from his style that he seems "hackish" in retrospect.

Pink Lady.....(I think Jeff has held up)

Shields and Yarnell

I would never in a million years consider Bryan Adams great. However... he did write one brilliant song: Summer of 69. So there's that.

I love those saying McCartney, Lennon and the Stones. I'm not even a big fan of either band, but come on. That's just silly.

Speaking of Stone... I totally agree with Oliver Stone. I remember watching The Doors, Natural Born Killers and JFK when I was a teenager and being transfixed by his output. Now? Yikes. Not so much.

R211 You just called Summer of 69, a brilliant song? Unironically?

Hardly, r59.

R59 No one considers The Who to be hacks. If anything, it's quite the opposite.

A "hack" produces dull, unoriginal work.

The OP implies that he means "by general consensus," not "by you, personally."

An actor who acts now only for the money. A painter who paints only to sell. A musician who plays only old hits. A writer who writes formulaic works of no depth.

Any creator who no longer truly creates, but who relies on past methods, themes, and style.

Trying to claim that deceased "greats"---who were, in their lifetimes, never considered to be "hacks"---are NOW considered "hacks" just because extant people are no longer fans, is plain stupid.

Might as well assert that Mozart and Michelangelo are now hacks.

The problem with the OP, if I may tread on it further, is that he implies that "back then" we couldn't tell greatness from schlock. Only NOW can we be enlightened by those younger.

Most hacks were always so, even if they "sold". Think James Patterson. Think Thomas Kinkade. Think Dane Cook. Penn and Teller.

Current prospects for awards in their profession(s) do not fit this thread (looking at you, r23).

Those you name are some of the most successful and critically acclaimed artists in show business history. You sound like the hack, OP- or just another baiting DL troll.

David Bowie ( he coasted on the only album/ persona that was truly innovative and original - Ziggy Stardust

Keats hacked.

You know, dying from consumption and all.

Welcome to the true hacks of art.

The cunts and cunt-adjacents who post shit like this.

Woody Allen - better than Chaplin (and not even close). Neil Simon did some great stuff: The Odd Couple (play and movie) Barefoot In The Park. The movie was simply funny. And the original film version The Heartbreak Kid.

Mapplethorpe should be included. But I have my biases. I guess the non-sex photos had were well-shot.

Simon did wonderful stuff early on. The movies of Odd Couple and Barefoot are terrific. I can't even begin to imagine how sensational Nichols' original productions were. When was the last time there was a new hit comedy on Broadway?

How many times can you have revivals of You Can't Take It With You and The Man Who Came to Dinner? Both enormously overrated. My favorite Kaufman and Hart is their first, Once in a Lifetime. No sentimentality and funny from beginning to the end. I recommend the movie. Not as good as the play but it is a not bad adaption. I only wish the great Jean Dixon got to repeat her Broadway performance. You get a glimpse of her enormous charm and dry delivery in My Man Godfrey and Holiday and you can see why she was a Broadway favorite in such a demanding era.

Al Pacino.

Michael Caine.