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Ordinary People (1980) Mother And Son

Buck never would have posted this video

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by Anonymousreply 505December 1, 2021 12:00 AM

Tim always said MTM was a remarkably soulful human being between takes, and she was always patient with him as he sorted out how to react when she flipped the switch from sweet lady to icy character. He was able to think and act like "Mommy, why are you suddenly so mean?"

Redford kept him isolated on this set, and told everyone to be frosty or ambivalent with the young actor on his first real movie. It freaked him the fuck out, but it drew out an authentically lonely and lost performance.

by Anonymousreply 1November 16, 2021 3:53 AM

He's so cute when he yells at her next to the Christmas tree.

"Goddamn SPAIN, and-and Goddamn PORTUGAL!"

by Anonymousreply 2November 16, 2021 3:56 AM

You lied every time you came into this house at 6.30! If its starting all over again, the lying, the covering up, the disappearing for hours, I won't stand for it, I can't stand for it, I really can't!

by Anonymousreply 3November 16, 2021 5:00 AM

They need to release this on Blu-Ray.

by Anonymousreply 4November 16, 2021 5:04 AM

Too bad there was never a Buck naked shot.

by Anonymousreply 5November 16, 2021 5:27 AM

Here's the obit for the actor who played Buck. Sounds like he was family IRL.

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by Anonymousreply 6November 16, 2021 5:44 AM

Watching these scenes 40 years after first seeing the movie, makes me realize how amazing MTM was in this role.

by Anonymousreply 7November 16, 2021 5:50 AM

The child of alcoholics, MTM was an uptight control freak in real life whose own son killed himself.

I wouldn’t say she was so much “amazing,” performance wise, as she was simply well cast.

by Anonymousreply 8November 16, 2021 5:53 AM

Wasn't Mary really just playing an exaggerated version of herself? Cold, distant, unapproachable. It's been said that she was much more like Beth Jarrett than Mary Richards.

by Anonymousreply 9November 16, 2021 5:57 AM

Watching it many years later I am also impressed by how good Donald Sutherland is in it. MTM and Timothy got all the praise and publicity when it first came out. But Donald actually did a great job. His character is very loving and compassionate. And I love how he slowly begins to realize what a cold bitch Beth is, and kicks her snatchy ass to the curb.

by Anonymousreply 10November 16, 2021 6:12 AM

She WAS a good actress for coming across so believably on the MTM show. I want to remember her as that lovable character, Mary Richards.

"Ordinary People" was beautifully produced.

by Anonymousreply 11November 16, 2021 6:17 AM

The actor who played Buck wasn’t married and he doted on his nieces and nephews?

by Anonymousreply 12November 16, 2021 6:23 AM

All I can say is it is and always has been my favorite movies - how I gauge a great movie is when I say there are no boring parts. for 41 years I have loved it. As a young gayling, I was enthralled by MTM's performance. And forgive me I wanted to be like Beth Jarrett. That perfectionism is what I have always striven for. From her look - 80's perfection, to the perfectly organized drawer with the napkins and napkin rings. The cinematography is hypnotizing.

by Anonymousreply 13November 16, 2021 1:26 PM

Buck NEVER would've taken it up the butt!

(More than a few times and maybe occasionally when he was drunk or smoking pot...and only from really cute guys)

by Anonymousreply 14November 16, 2021 1:36 PM

At the time and even now, I thought Judd Hirsch was the one casting mistake. He veers into tv movie territory in his scenes. Someone older and with more presence would have been better. Theodore Bikel, who wasn't getting a lot of film or stage parts in those days would have been better.

Sutherland is pretty remarkable. he seemed to take roles that went against type in those days (Midwestern suburban dad was not his brand). He actually would have been good as the psychiatrist of some one else had gotten the father roles.

R9: LIke most actors, she was playing a version of herself.

by Anonymousreply 15November 16, 2021 1:36 PM

Ann-Marget should have been cast instead. She could act circles around MTM and didn’t have any emotional baggage.

by Anonymousreply 16November 16, 2021 1:50 PM

[quote]Buck NEVER would've taken it up the butt!

Buck never would've TAKEN it up the butt!

Get the inflection right or stop posting, R14.

by Anonymousreply 17November 16, 2021 1:52 PM

Thank you for your note, R17, (Mandy Patinkin)

by Anonymousreply 18November 16, 2021 1:55 PM

After reading a Bewitched thread, I wonder how Elizabeth Montgomery would have been as Beth.

by Anonymousreply 19November 16, 2021 2:07 PM

I grew up with the actor who played Jared as a kid—tge scene where they fight over the sweater. I believe that makes me DL royalty.

Didn’t know him well, but same age and attended same grammar school.

by Anonymousreply 20November 16, 2021 2:11 PM

Saw this one for the first time recently. Judd Hirsch seemed great as the therapist to me. Most awkward/horrific scene to me was when the husband suggested a vacation in Europe, resulting in the mother's complete, total revulsion at the idea of having the son come along.

It's incredibly well done, R13, but once was enough for me - far too disturbing!

by Anonymousreply 21November 16, 2021 2:15 PM

Well, not EVERY mother can be a warm, sunny matriarch.

Some of us have challenges in our lives. Health issues. Unruly children. Pint-sized harlots!

by Anonymousreply 22November 16, 2021 2:16 PM

OP - really? Why?

by Anonymousreply 23November 16, 2021 2:18 PM

Ooops, I’m R20. I meant young Connor. Actor’s name is Michael Creadon. We had a surprising number of kid actors in my town who got decent roles—including one who was in Bless the Beast and the Children.

A nd an entire family of child models that were heavily featured in the annual Sears catalog. The mom looked a lot like the DL’s own Patsy Ramsey….but without the taste for blood.

The kid community was pretty miserable to these children stars—primarily out of jealousy. The family of kid models were really nice and we were just awful to them.

by Anonymousreply 24November 16, 2021 2:18 PM

A good thing about the movie is that it offs the Karen.

by Anonymousreply 25November 16, 2021 2:31 PM

I was a kid when this movie came out. Loved it. For me it was all about the kids. Then my oldest brother died. After seeing what that did to all of us, but especially my mom, now I see the movie through Beth’s eyes. Finding whatever comfort there is to be found in order and isolation. Sad all around.

by Anonymousreply 26November 16, 2021 3:15 PM

Survivor's guilt is a real and horrible thing.

by Anonymousreply 27November 16, 2021 3:34 PM

R27- Like people who survived AIDS.

by Anonymousreply 28November 16, 2021 3:36 PM

If you're ever in Houston come on over and see me in my one-woman show MY SON MADE ME A MOTHER - you'll love it. You WILL love it.

Free ticket if you can prove your name is Buck!

by Anonymousreply 29November 16, 2021 3:36 PM

R28 and like the guys who survived Vietnam.

by Anonymousreply 30November 16, 2021 3:37 PM

[quote]Too bad there was never a Buck naked shot.

Buck would NEVER have disrobed just so you crummy homosexuals could get your jollies.

Now the OTHER one...whats-his-name...BUCK'S brother, now he CERTAINLY would do THAT sort of thing.

by Anonymousreply 31November 16, 2021 3:43 PM

[quote]Ooops, I’m [R20]. I meant young Connor.

Buck never would have typed "Conrad" wrong.

by Anonymousreply 32November 16, 2021 3:44 PM

I know what you're talking about, [R20]! My royalty adjacent bona fides come from being at elementary school with Patty Duke. Bonus: this was when she was prepping for Miracle Worker. And her 'guardians' WERE some of the most evil miserable bastards I ever met.

by Anonymousreply 33November 16, 2021 3:49 PM

Buck was all man and would never have played the submissive role with the Lazenby boy.

by Anonymousreply 34November 16, 2021 3:50 PM

There were times when Conrad would stand wearing only a tight swimsuit in front of his pervy coach.

by Anonymousreply 35November 16, 2021 3:53 PM

My mother was Beth Jarrett. I found my Mother’s Day card to her when I was 7 (hand drawn) thrown away the very same day, on the top of the kitchen trash. Stone cold. This movie is like a documentary.

by Anonymousreply 36November 16, 2021 3:57 PM

This, more than any movie I have ever seen, shook me to the core. It really bothered me.

After seeing it, I called my mother to say how grateful I was that she was nothing like the mother in the movie.

It was only many years later that I realized that the reason the movie unnerved me so much was that she was.

by Anonymousreply 37November 16, 2021 4:00 PM

r36, dotting your i's with hearts probably gave away the fact that you were a gayling, so it's understandable that she threw it in the trash after probably vomiting up the Swanson Chicken a la King she had eaten for dinner.

by Anonymousreply 38November 16, 2021 4:04 PM

[quote]R18 Thank you for your note, [R17], (Mandy Patinkin) - —You'll Be Hearing from My Agent

Sorry to stop you, but can we hear it as, “Thank you for YOUR note”?

by Anonymousreply 39November 16, 2021 4:06 PM

R38, when I did come out she said, “I let go a long time ago.” This movie is a classic for a reason.

by Anonymousreply 40November 16, 2021 4:10 PM

So many of you had Beth Jarrett for a mother, it's no wonder you're all so damaged and bitter and found each other on this board. Damaged attracts damaged.

by Anonymousreply 41November 16, 2021 4:15 PM

Thanks for chiming in with all that empathy, Beth r41

by Anonymousreply 42November 16, 2021 4:18 PM

R41 yet here you are.

by Anonymousreply 43November 16, 2021 4:39 PM

In 1981 Ordinary People won the award for best picture , I believe and some people to this day thought that Raging Bull was THE best movie of 1980.

Oooo it was filmed in black and white, oooo is was set in the Bronx, oooo it starred Robert DeNiro. I thought the movie was just- meh.

A far better movie filmed in black and white was The Elephant Man. That movie was far more deserving of an academy award than Raging Bull.

Ordinary People had far more impact on me than either Raging Bull or even The Elephant Man.

by Anonymousreply 44November 16, 2021 4:52 PM

I never said I wasn't damaged, but it was my dad who did the damage.

by Anonymousreply 45November 16, 2021 4:56 PM

[quote] I never said I wasn't damaged, but it was my dad who did the damage.


by Anonymousreply 46November 16, 2021 5:00 PM

In addition to the masterful direction, casting and acting , the obvious element that makes this movie so exceptional is that it is very successful in its attempt to peer into and reveal how fucked-up and deeply wounding family dynamics can be. For many people, these cruel intricacies leave lasting, incisive emotional wounds that never heal. Speaking for myself, I learned how to to calcify those feelings.

I relate to certain aspects of this film so much so that sometimes, it's difficult to watch, and if I'm around 10 or 20 years from now to watch it again, it won't be any less affecting.

by Anonymousreply 47November 16, 2021 5:12 PM

You should all count yourselves lucky you had a Beth Jarrett mother.

I had the mom from Sybil.

by Anonymousreply 48November 16, 2021 5:30 PM

We find out why Beth Jarrett is such a COLD BITCH , when we meet her mother who's a SUPER COLD BITCH.

by Anonymousreply 49November 16, 2021 7:42 PM

Grandma was an antisemite.

by Anonymousreply 50November 16, 2021 7:55 PM

The great Meg Mundy played Beth's mother. Her Doctors co-star Elizabeth Hubbard was also in the movie.

by Anonymousreply 51November 16, 2021 8:05 PM


by Anonymousreply 52November 16, 2021 8:20 PM

Who did La Hubbard play, R51? I don't remember her in the film.

by Anonymousreply 53November 16, 2021 8:26 PM

r53 She was a guest at the Christmas party Beth and Calvin went to early in the movie. I think she had one line.

by Anonymousreply 54November 16, 2021 8:42 PM

the exchange between Beth and her mother is very brief but very telling; the way grandma asks if the therapist is a Jew and Beth brushes off the question like she doesn't know or care, but it's obvious she's just trying not to notice or care. I can't imagine there were (are?) many Jews living on the North Shore. Seems kind of like Darien or New Canaan in that regard.

It's hard to remember a time before feelings and mental health were the topic of seemingly every conversation, and now social media post. Families, even those not nearly as rich as the Jarretts, just did NOT talk about that stuff until Prozac became a household name sometime in the mid-late '90s.

by Anonymousreply 55November 16, 2021 9:12 PM

R55- I don't think the Jarrett's were rich. They were Upper Middle Class which is not the same thing.

by Anonymousreply 56November 16, 2021 9:14 PM

That’s an ongoing problem, where “upper middle class” people falsely claim not to be rich. They need their tax rates jacked up sky high.

by Anonymousreply 57November 16, 2021 9:17 PM

What did Beth do all day besides shop and go to lunch?

by Anonymousreply 58November 16, 2021 9:17 PM

North Shore communities are among the most affluent in the country, R56. Considering the size of their house and the fact that Beth didn't work, I don't think adjectives like "wealthy" or "rich" are out of place.

by Anonymousreply 59November 16, 2021 9:17 PM

R55 The Jarretts had a nice house, a housekeeper (fired by Beth for poor dusting), a sailboat, and TWO tasteful Oldsmobiles. They were doing okay.

R58 Beth played a lot of golf during the day. At least, she did in the novel.

by Anonymousreply 60November 16, 2021 9:18 PM

Would Beth Jarrett and Mary Richards have gotten along?

by Anonymousreply 61November 16, 2021 9:26 PM

Beth would've quietly mocked Mary Richards' adorable incompetence. She can't keep a man. She can't pick apartments. And she DARES to tell her peers about her personal life.

"You drink too much at parties, Calvin."

by Anonymousreply 62November 16, 2021 9:29 PM

R8 MTM's son's death was accidental, as an eyewitness and the coroner later confirmed. He was a gun collector and one of them discharged while he was cleaning the barrel. The two clearly had a strained relationship and he had been in rehab, but there's no evidence that he intentionally killed himself.

by Anonymousreply 63November 16, 2021 9:31 PM

Redford nailed that particular North Shore setting perfectly. Even today it's more Volvo than Range Rover.

by Anonymousreply 64November 16, 2021 9:51 PM

All the President’s Men was on TV (again) the other night and this exchange (I’m paraphrasing somewhat) always sticks out to me in light of this movie:

Hoffman/Bernstein: all these pretty perfect houses, it’s hard to believe all the problems inside them.

Redford/Woodward: no it’s not.

Did Redford have any input on that screenplay at all? I know he co-produced it.

In any event he was clearly fascinated with the behind closed doors of picture perfect WASP homes for a while.

by Anonymousreply 65November 16, 2021 9:54 PM

[quote]I never said I wasn't damaged, but it was my dad who did the damage.

With me, it was the Swanson Chicken a la King dinners I had to eat that did the damage...

by Anonymousreply 66November 16, 2021 9:56 PM

[quote]MTM's son's death was accidental, as an eyewitness and the coroner later confirmed. He was a gun collector and one of them discharged while he was cleaning the barrel. The two clearly had a strained relationship and he had been in rehab, but there's no evidence that he intentionally killed himself.

MTM also admitted that a lot of her pain over her son Richie's death came from her feeling that she had let him down - she acknowledged that when he became a difficult teenager she sent him to live with his father. She said she felt there were times she chose her career over Richie, and that she didn't try hard enough with him. Hearing her speak about it gave me the impression she had been spent a lot of time reflecting on it all - "doing her grief work" as the folks in Hospice say and had had the benefit of a lot of good therapy herself.

by Anonymousreply 67November 16, 2021 10:03 PM

[quote]MTM's son's death was accidental, as an eyewitness and the coroner later confirmed.

MTM's much younger sister Elizabeth Ann, who was actually closer in age to Moore's son Richie, did die of a drug overdose in February 1978, and it was considered a suicide.

Valerie Harper talked about catching Elizabeth and Richie smoking in her dressing room on the set of the MTM show, and said she decided to play "Aunt Rhoda" and warn them off about the smoking rather than telling Mary about it.

by Anonymousreply 68November 16, 2021 10:08 PM

R6, who wrote that obit Wayland Flowers or Madam?

"His death was presaged by a red fox dancing in the twilight outside his window."

by Anonymousreply 69November 16, 2021 10:09 PM

[quote]With me, it was the Swanson Chicken a la King dinners I had to eat that did the damage...

Tucker Carlson's stepmother Patricia Swanson, who married Tucker Carlson's father when Tucker was 10 years old, is an heiress to the wealth generated by the Swanson TV dinner company...

by Anonymousreply 70November 16, 2021 10:13 PM

Buck would have NEVER watched the Mary Tyler Moore Show.

by Anonymousreply 71November 16, 2021 10:21 PM

R71, Mandy Patinkin at R17 has some notes for you on your line reading...

[quote]Buck never would've TAKEN it up the butt!. Get the inflection right or stop posting...

by Anonymousreply 72November 16, 2021 10:35 PM

Thanks, Mandy! Love your "Younger Than Springtime" Neely O'Hara impression.

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by Anonymousreply 73November 16, 2021 11:03 PM

My mother was definitely Beth. Not ironically I turned out the same, cold and unfeeling and definitely not able to handle mess. That movie struck too close to home.

by Anonymousreply 74November 16, 2021 11:52 PM

[quote]My mother was definitely Beth. Not ironically I turned out the same, cold and unfeeling and definitely not able to handle mess. That movie struck too close to home.

Really, R74, how sad!

(Confidentially, she has crumbs in her silverware drawers and her cheap china is chipped and dirty. She doesn't even have a clue how to make French Toast!)

by Anonymousreply 75November 17, 2021 12:05 AM

The scene where Beth is remembering Buck is creepy. They seemed like lovers instead of mother and son. She was flirting with him while sat there in a mini skirt and full make up. What a whore.

by Anonymousreply 76November 17, 2021 12:08 AM

Beth would have masturbated in Buck's room had Conrad not appeared.

by Anonymousreply 77November 17, 2021 12:10 AM

[quote]The scene where Beth is remembering Buck is creepy. They seemed like lovers instead of mother and son. She was flirting with him while sat there in a mini skirt and full make up. What a whore.

Eh, Some parents have a 'conflicted' relationship with their children...

by Anonymousreply 78November 17, 2021 12:17 AM

[quote]Some parents have a 'conflicted' relationship with their children...

And some children are fat little whores who can't even stick to a Pageant Diet!

by Anonymousreply 79November 17, 2021 12:19 AM

It is very possible. Beth seemed to love Buck more than her own husband. She really really really loved Buck.

by Anonymousreply 80November 17, 2021 12:23 AM

R14, R31 and R71: You pussies. You're no better than Conrad.

👏🏻 GET.

👏🏻 THE.



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by Anonymousreply 81November 17, 2021 12:28 AM

I grew up in the area this movie takes place in - not Lake Forest, specifically, but a small North Shore neighborhood about a half hour out from Chicago. Incredible portrayal of that culture. My family was solidly middle class (townhome living), but it seemed like crumbs compared to how rich some of my friends and classmates were - having pools, buying their kids brand new cars for their 16th birthday, home movie theaters. My mom was not a Beth, but the town was full of them, at the school board meetings or chaperoning school field trips. Cold, cold ladies with the specific veneer of Midwestern optimism.

by Anonymousreply 82November 17, 2021 12:30 AM


"It's really important to try and hurt me isn't it?"

by Anonymousreply 83November 17, 2021 12:39 AM

"His death was presaged by a red fox dancing in the twilight outside his window."

Wayland Flowers and Madam would have written an obscenity-laced rant for an obituary. "His death was presaged by an empty case of gin in the hallway and terminal syphilis. He was found in a fox-skin hat and a Dale Evans one-piece swimsuit."

by Anonymousreply 84November 17, 2021 12:42 AM

R82, Glencoe? North field? Lake Bluff?

by Anonymousreply 85November 17, 2021 12:44 AM

It's good that Buck died. Beth would have been a fucking monster to her daughter in law.

by Anonymousreply 86November 17, 2021 12:48 AM

R6-, He looks a lot like Christopher Atkins ca. 1980.

by Anonymousreply 87November 17, 2021 1:46 AM

Apparently Sutherland was originally offered the psychiatrist role by Redford but asked to play the father because it went 'against type' for him. I always thought that Beth was a villain when I read the book (I think we had to read it in junior high) and saw the film as a kid; but after watching it as an adult I think she's just absolutely terrified of unpleasant feelings, hers or anyone else's (namely Conrad's). I think the scene where she goes outside to try to speak with Conrad and he starts barking, demonstrates that she's trying because she loves Conrad (same with the French Toast, buying the sweaters) but just cannot 'go there' and as the story progresses she gets more and more frustrated with her inability to grieve and takes it out on Conrad, who can and is grieving.

I think MTM was wonderful in the part, and the received mythology of the DL that she was more 'Beth Jarrett' than 'Mary Richards' is probably not true, the reality being that she was both which is why she played both characters so convincingly. I've been watching a lot of reruns of the MTM show lately and I have to say she's really impressed me with what a good actress she was.

by Anonymousreply 88November 17, 2021 3:03 AM

WASPy families are so.. interesting.

by Anonymousreply 89November 17, 2021 3:08 AM

And you don't think this sort of thing goes on within black or other "POC or other minority" type families? Right... wait until that shit starts coming out.

And this is one of a few films/books that does live up to the hype. It's not blockbuster good, it's more along the lines of something you can't quite look away from. You know you should, but just keep watching.

by Anonymousreply 90November 17, 2021 3:15 AM

1980 was such a great year for film. So many of my favourite films and performances come from that year. Tess, Raging Bull, Resurrection, Coal Miner's Daughter, Fame, Melvin & Howard, Somewhere in Time, Empire Strikes Back. And, of course, Ordinary People.

Raging Bull is a great film, but I also love Ordinary People and I don't begrudge it winning Best Picture. It was deserving. I still think about many of the scenes today. We watched this in my Religion class in high school and can still remember the room, the walls, the weather. A sign of a great film is when you remember where you were and what was happening when you watched it.

by Anonymousreply 91November 17, 2021 4:03 AM

[quote] I think the scene where she goes outside to try to speak with Conrad and he starts barking, demonstrates that she's trying because she loves Conrad

I think Beth's love drowned with Buck, and her attempt to bring some normalcy to her relationship with Conrad fails miserably, because it's superficial at best, and when Conrad tries to take it deeper by casually bringing up a memory of Buck, she "can't go there" and immediately drops down that massive, invisible wall that loomed above them like a cleaver.

The hostility and rejection that Conrad has to deal with almost daily with becomes so painfully obvious in a later scene when he asks her if she needs help setting the table, and she's deliberately rigid and disconnected as she can be. The icy cold emanates from her towards Conrad like a massive block of arctic ice.

Conrad realizes how hopeless the void between them is when she takes a call and becomes warmly and laughingly engaged in the phone conversation, triggering flashbacks in Conrad to a time forever lost in which she was that way with Buck. That scene so effectively conveys Conrad's profound sense of rejection.

It's so rare to experience the level of chemistry that existed between Hutton, MTM, Sutherland and Hirsch. I can't think of any other combo of actors that would've meshed so superbly well as they had. A timeless masterpiece of a movie.

by Anonymousreply 92November 17, 2021 6:27 AM

I was always left wondering why no one in the family made a bigger deal of GIVE HER THE GODDAMNED CAMERA!

by Anonymousreply 93November 17, 2021 6:34 AM

Did Beth's pussy stink?

by Anonymousreply 94November 17, 2021 7:43 AM

[quote]Did Beth's pussy stink?

It tasted like Lysol.

by Anonymousreply 95November 17, 2021 7:45 AM

Beth sees herself as a victim whom Conrad deliberately is trying to hurt. She’s always trying to cope with what he does. When he brings up the memory of Buck wanting the dog, she sees it as Conrad trying to hurt her by reminding her she wouldn’t let Buck have a dog. When Conrad surprises her in Buck’s room, or asks her if she took Trig after she just said she did, she interprets it as him messing with her. She takes comfort in that she believes herself to be strong enough to withstand it and still tolerate/love him, although he can cause her to break, like when he quit the swim team. She thinks her husband doesn’t give her any support when Conrad hurts her. She needs a break from Conrad every so often, and a vacation is her escape. Calvin ruins her escape by mentioning Conrad and suggesting he come along time next time and so doesn’t let her have her Conrad-free time. When he gives her the final embrace, she shows that he is indeed too much for her to deal with and she can’t tolerate him any longer. The tragedy, of course, is that Conrad sees himself as her victim. As Calvin pointed out, Conrad and Beth are a lot alike. It’s a doomed relationship because of their similarity.

by Anonymousreply 96November 17, 2021 12:55 PM

Why was it SO important that Conrad be on the swim team?

by Anonymousreply 97November 17, 2021 12:59 PM

[quote]Why was it SO important that Conrad be on the swim team?

It isn't. What's important is that Beth found out about it from another swim team member's mother, Carole Lazenby, instead of from Conrad.

by Anonymousreply 98November 17, 2021 1:14 PM

I still don't understand Beth. Or maybe I do.

When I first saw the movie as a preteen in the mid-'80s, I thought my mother was EXACTLY Beth, sans the death of a child.

My parents were both working-class people who strove mightily to become upper-middle-class, and having a gay oldest son was not part of their plan.

But my father was very much the peacemaker/nurturer, while my mother was the taskmaster - cold as ice. Hugging/touching, never. Her standards were never achievable, because the bar was always being raised. For me - not my younger sisters; they were victimized by my being older and doing things first and well.

I could never understand how someone could literally carry you inside them and give birth to you, yet reject you repeatedly.

But maybe it's that closeness that triggers narcissists - how dare someone I created and carried not be exactly what I want them to be.

by Anonymousreply 99November 17, 2021 1:23 PM

Beth explained that the thing that hurt her was being embarrassed from not knowing what her son had done and being told about it by a friend. That it was quitting the swim team was not the important element. Beth believes that Conrad knows that being embarrassed like that is something particularly painful to her and that he did it deliberately or at least callously. Beth had admitted that she sees things in terms of how they affect her. So when this situation occurred, her mind didn’t go to trying to understand how Conrad was feeling and how that led to his decision, but rather she immediately focused on herself and how it impacted her. Conrad is similar, as in the final scene when Dad says Beth left and Conrad immediately focuses on himself by suggesting he was the cause. They both see themselves as central characters in other people’s stories, even when they are not. For example, Conrad blaming himself for not preventing Karen’s death. The doctor had to explain to him that, no, he was not relevant to her story at all, and he should stop inflating his role. If the doctor had counseled Beth, he would have similarly tried to get Beth to see that she was only a minor character in Conrad’s quitting the swim team story.

by Anonymousreply 100November 17, 2021 1:26 PM

I feel like Donald Sutherland is always weirdly ignored and underpraised, R10. He’s consistently good to great in everything he’s done. Even if he’s miscast, like the recent Pride and Prejudice with Keira Knightley, he manages to make his role soulful and interesting.

by Anonymousreply 101November 17, 2021 1:27 PM

I should add that my mother, like Beth, was 100% a homemaker, so everything that happened to "the kids," and what they turned out to be, she likely felt was a reflection on her.

My dad, like Calvin, had a career that paid for everything—and golf to distract him from shitstorms at home.

by Anonymousreply 102November 17, 2021 1:29 PM

I'd ask if we were brothers, R102, but I only had sisters. Very much my family dynamic.

by Anonymousreply 103November 17, 2021 1:31 PM

Because everyone is shocked by the amount of rage R93. What is there to say? The kid just came back from a hospital after trying to off himself. The amount of daily walking on eggshells must have been extraordinary.

by Anonymousreply 104November 17, 2021 2:05 PM

In this fictional world, do you think there was ever a time that Conrad and his mother might have come to some understanding of each other in his adulthood?

by Anonymousreply 105November 17, 2021 2:10 PM

[quote]In this fictional world, do you think there was ever a time that Conrad and his mother might have come to some understanding of each other in his adulthood?

No, and that's because my mother had a Master's degree in education and still acted like Beth. She was a beloved elementary school teacher before she left to have kids. And she acted like the opposite of a beloved teacher to her own children.

When it comes to their family, narcissists gonna narcissist.

My mother died when I was 25, so there was no time to "get to know each other as adults." But I honestly can't envision it being possible.

by Anonymousreply 106November 17, 2021 2:18 PM

My mother has only gotten worse as she’s aged.

by Anonymousreply 107November 17, 2021 2:42 PM

I think I might have really liked Ken Howard as the husband. He was so good in his tv series as a basketball coach.....

by Anonymousreply 108November 17, 2021 2:48 PM

I wish they had continued with Ordinary People 2: Rebuilding Normalcy where Conrad explores "alternative lifestyles" and Beth finally finds warmth and compassion in the arms of a black man.

But I suppose America just wasn't quite ready to see MTM in corn rows and a dashiki.

by Anonymousreply 109November 17, 2021 3:29 PM

[quote]In this fictional world, do you think there was ever a time that Conrad and his mother might have come to some understanding of each other in his adulthood?

No. Conrad left home and came to accept he was gay. He never really heard from Beth, just Calvin. By the time Beth came to visit him at SF General as he lay dying of AIDS, it fell to me to explain to her both that Connie had AIDS and that he was gay.

"Buck never would have GOT AIDS" was her only response.

by Anonymousreply 110November 17, 2021 3:39 PM

How does the book compare to the movie?

by Anonymousreply 111November 17, 2021 9:55 PM

R111 I read the book when it first came out (yes, I’m old) and loved it. Was wary about the movie but I thought it was brilliant.

The movie played up the Jarretts’ wealth more than the book (that shot of the house - it drew comments from the audience in the cinema) otherwise I thought it was a very clever adaptation of the book with brilliant casting. I especially liked the casting of Elizabeth McGovern as Jeanine. She wasn’t some stereotypical high school babe but kind of geeky, which worked well.

by Anonymousreply 112November 17, 2021 10:01 PM

[quote] The movie played up the Jarretts’ wealth more than the book (that shot of the house - it drew comments from the audience in the cinema)

It drew comments from the audience? Was there a comments session after the film or did people express their views to the rest of the audience throughout the film?

by Anonymousreply 113November 17, 2021 11:05 PM

[quote] Conrad left home and came to accept he was gay.

Was it Lady Grantham that made him that way?

by Anonymousreply 114November 17, 2021 11:07 PM

[quote]I could never understand how someone could literally carry you inside them and give birth to you, yet reject you repeatedly. But maybe it's that closeness that triggers narcissists - how dare someone I created and carried not be exactly what I want them to be.

I don't understand the question, and I won't respond to it.

by Anonymousreply 115November 17, 2021 11:10 PM

R113 were you there? People laughed a little - not sure how I can best represent the experience to satisfy you on my experience in a cinema forty years ago.

by Anonymousreply 116November 17, 2021 11:18 PM

r116, if I had been there, I wouldn’t be asking. There were comments from the audience but you don’t remember how they there made? I think I would remember an experience like that.

by Anonymousreply 117November 17, 2021 11:23 PM

Yeah sure R117 - whatever floats your boat.

by Anonymousreply 118November 17, 2021 11:26 PM

Was Faye Dunaway considered for the part of Beth?

by Anonymousreply 119November 17, 2021 11:29 PM

You’re absolutely right, R117. In 1981 while watching Ordinary People in a suburban Sydney cinema I decided to mislead the as yet unknown Datalounge membership with the response of the audience to the tracking shot of the Jarretts’ palatial Lake Forest home, forty years later.

I didn’t anticipate that I would be found out in 2021. Silly me! Well done you! You must feel great about yourself right now.

by Anonymousreply 120November 17, 2021 11:41 PM

Dinah Manoff is also great in a small role.

by Anonymousreply 121November 17, 2021 11:47 PM

No, r120, I’m just wondering why you became so agitated instead of just answering the question. It shouldn’t be difficult. You already had the memory in your mind.

by Anonymousreply 122November 17, 2021 11:48 PM

Carole Lazenby made Conrad gay.

by Anonymousreply 123November 17, 2021 11:51 PM

r122 must be a scream at parties....

by Anonymousreply 124November 17, 2021 11:54 PM

R122 You’re a fuckwit. I assume that this isn’t the first time that this has been pointed out.

by Anonymousreply 125November 17, 2021 11:55 PM

r124, r125, if a question makes you agitated, as it appears to, take some pills from your medicine cabinet. I don’t care what.

by Anonymousreply 126November 18, 2021 12:09 AM

Clever, R125! Is that all that you have?

by Anonymousreply 127November 18, 2021 12:11 AM

R35- In many schools across the country up until the 1970's he would have been standing in front of his coach COMPLETELY NAKED because boys had to swim naked up until then at school and at the Y.

by Anonymousreply 128November 18, 2021 12:42 AM

[quote] Clever, [R125]! Is that all that you have?

You are r125. You’ve gotten yourself so agitated that you can’t keep the numbers straight. You need rest.

by Anonymousreply 129November 18, 2021 12:44 AM

[quote] In many schools across the country up until the 1970's he would have been standing in front of his coach COMPLETELY NAKED because boys had to swim naked up until then at school and at the Y.

I wonder if he was naked when he got electroshock.

by Anonymousreply 130November 18, 2021 12:50 AM

Yep R129 - I fucked that up. Care to answer my original question, rather than taking inconsequential potshots?

by Anonymousreply 131November 18, 2021 1:09 AM

Mary Tyler Moore says she had an affair with someone during this movie. Her marriage was crumbling at the time.

by Anonymousreply 132November 18, 2021 1:12 AM

Loved the movie. Finally read the book over the weekend.

This is one of those times where movie first, book second really works the best. The cast could not have been better and having them in my head as I read the book, made it so much better. It's like watching, well, reading, an extended director's cut of the film. HIGHLY recommend. it.

by Anonymousreply 133November 18, 2021 1:16 AM

My mother had the story in one of her Reader’s Digest Condensed Books, but even that was too long. Thank goodness for film adaptations.

by Anonymousreply 134November 18, 2021 1:22 AM

"In our lucid moments, we reminded ourselves that this was the heartfelt yet temporary phenomenon of location shooting. He had a longtime commitment and wasn't interested in changing that life."

MTM on her on set affair

by Anonymousreply 135November 18, 2021 1:25 AM

[quote] Mary Tyler Moore says she had an affair with someone during this movie.

Timothy was legal by then.

by Anonymousreply 136November 18, 2021 1:26 AM

Was Buck?

by Anonymousreply 137November 18, 2021 1:27 AM

Oh god, did Mary fuck Judd Hirsch? He's Jewish.

by Anonymousreply 138November 18, 2021 1:28 AM

Please don’t let it be M. Emmet Walsh.

by Anonymousreply 139November 18, 2021 1:31 AM

Buck would never have fucked MTM.

by Anonymousreply 140November 18, 2021 1:34 AM

Films about psychiatry NEVER age well. Ordinary People feels about as fresh as The Snake Pit with Olivia de Havilland.

by Anonymousreply 141November 18, 2021 1:40 AM

We all know MTM had an affair with RR.

by Anonymousreply 142November 18, 2021 1:41 AM

OH ROB!!!!

by Anonymousreply 143November 18, 2021 1:47 AM

[quote]n 1981 Ordinary People won the award for best picture , I believe and some people to this day thought that Raging Bull was THE best movie of 1980.

No. Ordinary People, Best Picture. Martin Scorsese should have been BEST DIRECTOR for Raging Bull over that bleached blond Redford.

by Anonymousreply 144November 18, 2021 1:51 AM

BUCK? Who names their kid Buck? Yeah, Buck and Conrad.

by Anonymousreply 145November 18, 2021 1:52 AM

Buck’s real name was Jordan.

by Anonymousreply 146November 18, 2021 1:55 AM

I always assumed she had the affair with Sutherland.

by Anonymousreply 147November 18, 2021 1:59 AM

[quote]The scene where Beth is remembering Buck is creepy. They seemed like lovers instead of mother and son. She was flirting with him while sat there in a mini skirt and full make up. What a whore.

Pauline Kael made mention of the creepy incestuous like vibe in it that scene and thought it odd that that Redford put it in there and didn't explore it any further.

I like the movie, but I thought Kael (who trashed it) did make some good points. That it was a prestigious made for TV movie. She also thought the ending was wrong, and that it would have been Conrad and Buck who left the house, and not Beth. The house is more Beth's than it is theirs, it was her showplace and basically an extension of herself. I too felt that the ending was a bit of a copout.

by Anonymousreply 148November 18, 2021 2:02 AM

R145 his name was Jordan Buckman Jarrett and we called him "Buck" or “Bucky”.

Buckman was my mother’s maiden name and in the social circles in which I grew up, and am still a part of, it is very common to use a distinctive family last name as a child’s first or middle name and then derive an affectionate nick name from it.

Oh never mind, you would never understand... you probably grew up in Naperville for gods sake!

by Anonymousreply 149November 18, 2021 2:05 AM

Another quitting the swim team issue was the fact that Beth wanted to keep up appearances. The party was a perfect example of that. When Calvin lets Carole know Conrad is seeing a shrink, Beth looks at him like WTF. By all means, our friends and neighbors must know everything is fine, when the Jarretts are dying a little more everyday without working through their grief. I really cringe in all the scenes in their home, and you know that they aren’t dealing with the elephant in the room-Bucks death. Beth’s inability to deal with her feelings of grief, and her son suffering a little more every day, with Calvin attempting to do the heavy lifting for both of them is riveting. True masterpiece.

by Anonymousreply 150November 18, 2021 2:08 AM

Buck sounds like a horse

by Anonymousreply 151November 18, 2021 2:13 AM

R150 "You drink too much at parties, Calvin."

by Anonymousreply 152November 18, 2021 2:13 AM

Buck was hung like a horse.

by Anonymousreply 153November 18, 2021 2:17 AM

Kael was beginning her descent into unreadable muddled reviews that were leaden with he purple prose which no longer seemed novel. She was no longer the only major critic to make it ok to hate Oscar bait, foreign films, etc. and extoll quirky independent film makers.

I read the book just before the film was made---MTM and Sutherland were pleasant surprises, Hutton was good, but Hirsch just seemed off and the other adolescents were a mixed bag. The setting seemed very authentic--I lived in Chicago a number of years later but knew people like her in Ohio (where I grew-up) by the time of the film.

by Anonymousreply 154November 18, 2021 2:29 AM

R154- I'm not impressed with Kael. She gave bad reviews to good movies ( just to show her independence - a lot of movie/theater critics do this) and she adored SHITTY movies.

by Anonymousreply 155November 18, 2021 2:34 AM

I loathe ‘Canon in D’ but I liked its usage in ‘Ordinary People’

by Anonymousreply 156November 18, 2021 2:37 AM

I've never seen Ordinary People. How does it compare to my all-time faves Valley of the Dolls and Imitation of Life (the Lana Turner version)? Which had the better acting? Directing?

by Anonymousreply 157November 18, 2021 2:38 AM

On a previous Ordinary People thread, people talked about how much Beth would care what the neighbors thought about her "perfect life" facade shattering, and how it would make sense that Beth's impulse would be to flee... The ending felt right to me.

by Anonymousreply 158November 18, 2021 2:40 AM

R157- We need another thread about Imitation Of Life (1959).

by Anonymousreply 159November 18, 2021 2:43 AM

R159 I'd prefer another thread about "Last Action Hero" (1993).

by Anonymousreply 160November 18, 2021 2:44 AM

R65 - Redford most definitely worked on the screenplay for ATPM, in face he and Goldman had a falling out over it. Redford was very much interested in the phony veneers of the American middle class, so that line in ATPM might have well been his. It's a good point you make! I think QUIZ SHOW gets at this theme as well, and THE NATURAL definitely does, too. A RIVER RUNS THROUGH IT less so. I love Redford so much, as both and actor and a director, even though he's supposed to be insufferable.

by Anonymousreply 161November 18, 2021 2:50 AM

R20, I think the other poster was puzzled because the house is handsome and substantial but not particularly grand by the standards of the neighborhood. I assume by "comments" you mean dismissive laughter or something similar.

by Anonymousreply 162November 18, 2021 2:51 AM

Oops, meant for R120. Sorry!

by Anonymousreply 163November 18, 2021 2:52 AM

It's not a conventional weepie like "Imitation of Life" and it wasn't camp asking to be made like "Valley of the Dolls". It's very much a product of it's time, whereas "Imitation" was a remade 30s melodrama and "Valley" was a 60s film that was really about the 40s and 50s, but seemed almost to be about neither.

by Anonymousreply 164November 18, 2021 2:52 AM

The house was what you'd expect from a "Loop lawyer", corporate executive, or prosperous small business owner. People didn't build mini-mansions or super overdone stuff in the first couple decades after WWII and that was even more true before the war.

by Anonymousreply 165November 18, 2021 2:56 AM

I was in high school on the North Shore when this came out. Everybody’s parents wen to go see it, usually without the kids and often without telling them. A whole lot of North Shire mothers chilled the fuck it for weeks afterwards.

by Anonymousreply 166November 18, 2021 3:04 AM

I haven't seen this movie since it first came out I'm shocked at how much Timothy Hutton doesnt look like the Timothy Hutton I have in my head.

by Anonymousreply 167November 18, 2021 3:29 AM

Is Timothy Hutton related to the great Betty Hutton?

by Anonymousreply 168November 18, 2021 3:31 AM

One of the most devastating movies I've ever seen.

by Anonymousreply 169November 18, 2021 3:46 AM

[quote]We watched this in my Religion class in high school

r91, we watched it in my religion class in high school, too! Are you from Ohio by any chance?

by Anonymousreply 170November 18, 2021 3:48 AM

r170 no, I live in Canada! Ha!

Must be a trend of watching Ordinary People in Religion class!

by Anonymousreply 171November 18, 2021 4:01 AM

My school made us watch it in trig class.

by Anonymousreply 172November 18, 2021 4:07 AM

I love the awkward conversations.

Beth: I didn't think you were here.

Conrad: I'm sorry, I just got in, I didn't know you were here.

Beth: I didn't play golf today, it's too cold.

Conrad: How was your golf game?

Beth: I didn't play!

by Anonymousreply 173November 18, 2021 4:34 AM

I love the irony of Beth singing “What I did for Love” at the Lazenby’s Christmas party, cut to her swooping in on her husband’s conversation about how Connie was doing with her friend. That was a fabulous contrast.

by Anonymousreply 174November 18, 2021 4:42 AM

The movie sounds like high camp.

by Anonymousreply 175November 18, 2021 5:23 AM

[quote]Mary Tyler Moore says she had an affair with someone during this movie. Her marriage was crumbling at the time.

Adam Baldwin

MTM claimed he was reasonably well hung but came too quickly.

by Anonymousreply 176November 18, 2021 5:50 AM

The costumes don't get a ton of love, but I thought they were perfection.

Loved all of Conrad's straight-leg cords and crewneck sweaters. They're basically fetish material for me.

And Beth let no beige slacks-and-sweater ensemble in Neiman-Marcus go unbought.

by Anonymousreply 177November 18, 2021 6:18 AM

[quote] The costumes don't get a ton of love, but I thought they were perfection.

It couldn’t have been too hard for the costume designer since the “costumes” looked just like what people were wearing in 1980.

by Anonymousreply 178November 18, 2021 6:36 AM

[quote]It couldn’t have been too hard for the costume designer since the “costumes” looked just like what people were wearing in 1980.

Such a layperson's response. "What people were wearing in 1980" has a ton of possibilities. It takes research - period, mood, characters (and their growth, if any) - it's not nearly as easy as you think it is.

by Anonymousreply 179November 18, 2021 6:42 AM

"Tim always said MTM was a remarkably soulful human being between takes"

Not the interview I read years ago. He said she was always curt and frosty to him. And I hardly think our Mare was a Method actress.

Which matches what her co-workers said about her: professional but aloof.

by Anonymousreply 180November 18, 2021 6:49 AM

CONRAD: Do you love me? Do you really love me?

BETH: [pauses, as if searching for the answer] I feel the way I've always felt about you.

Then the very subtle and brief change in his facial expression as Conrad finally looks away, realizing she's not going to say anything more.

This scene is so damn good. Beth actually thinks she's giving the right answer, utterly unaware that it's anything but. And Conrad just gets more confirmation, which he didn't really need, that his wife is a complete and total stranger to him. This is fucking good acting.

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by Anonymousreply 181November 18, 2021 6:50 AM

I meant CALVIN, not CONRAD! Fuck.

by Anonymousreply 182November 18, 2021 6:53 AM

The movie really is a masterpiece. The screenplay is remarkable. So economical, every word carefully chosen for maximum impact.

That profound scene at R181 is a good example. (Interestingly, it was a reshoot—Sutherland saw an early screening and thought he was crying too much, so Redford threw up a window and plunked him in front of it and reshot. The cuts to MTM were from the original takes.)

by Anonymousreply 183November 18, 2021 7:00 AM

If you think the costumes required no artistry, compare what was worn in Ordinary People to the costumes in season 4 of Family, which was shot at the same time ca.1979.

Family was all L.A. ease and cheese, while OP was conservative Midwestern proto-preppy, layered and tailored.

by Anonymousreply 184November 18, 2021 7:04 AM

r184, Ordinary People wasn’t set in L.A. so the characters wouldn’t have dressed that way. The clothes worn in Ordinary People look like the clothes the students (and their families, some of whom were from Lake Forest) wore at my conservative Midwestern preppy college campus in 1980. That’s how people dressed in real life.

by Anonymousreply 185November 18, 2021 8:41 AM

That's the point I'm making, R185.

The film was a Hollywood production, created by people who lived in L.A.

But the costumer nailed the Midwestern preppy upper-crust milieu of 1979.

I'm particularly a fan of Beth's double-breasted beige coat, rust blouse and scarf combo she wears in the scene that contains the immortal DL line about Buck and his theoretical hospital status. Her fox hunting jacket when she meets Calvin for lunch at the mall is also great.

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by Anonymousreply 186November 18, 2021 9:45 AM

Have they ever released deleted scenes on a DVD or Blu-Ray? It seems like Redford shot a good amount of material that wasn't used in the final edit.

MTM talked in a few interviews about doing dozens of takes of Beth opening the refrigerator to adjust a cherry on top of a cake, but that scene is not in the film.

Nor is this, whatever it is. I don't remember Beth being in a negligee at any point:

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by Anonymousreply 187November 18, 2021 9:51 AM

[quote](Pauline Kael) was no longer the only major critic to make it ok to hate Oscar bait, foreign films, etc. and extoll quirky independent film makers.

That's because others were emulating her.

I LOVED Pauline. Didn't agree with her 65% of the time, didn't read her to find out if a movie was good. I loved her insights, she made me think about things I never would have without reading her.

by Anonymousreply 188November 18, 2021 3:30 PM

[quote]I LOVED Pauline.

Pauline was barely competent as a critic

And she had a bad habit of farting at my dinner parties

by Anonymousreply 189November 18, 2021 3:35 PM

My two most vivid recollections from this movie were- my love of the stained paneling in the grandparent's library and my bewilderment as to why the family drove Oldsmobiles.

by Anonymousreply 190November 18, 2021 3:45 PM

Did Beth end up saving the plate?

It was a clean break after all.

by Anonymousreply 191November 18, 2021 3:50 PM

I love Kael, too, but not blindly. If memory serves, her main complaint was that the movie purported to expose/break down codes of WASP repression but didn’t go far enough; in other words the movie was like Beth, more concerned with solemnity and taste than truth because it studiously avoided sex and drugs, not terribly convincing after the permissive ethos of the Me Decade. Conrad met his girlfriend in choir practice after all, which seems very ‘50s. For Kael, MTM’s character was “doomed” because she wouldn’t accept psychiatry.

This isn’t surprising since Kael hated all things WASP or WASP-aspirational (hence her love for Debra Winger and lack of enthusiasm for Meryl Streep and most Woody Allen movies from Interiors onward). In 2021 of course the movie is dated and has a prestige TV aspect to it, but I guess for the hordes of us who grew up with a similar family dynamic it really hit home.

by Anonymousreply 192November 18, 2021 4:09 PM

[quote]My two most vivid recollections from this movie were- my love of the stained paneling in the grandparent's library and my bewilderment as to why the family drove Oldsmobiles.

Not to mention, the cheap fake paneling visible in the Jarrett's breakfast room scenes...

I see you trying to save money, Robert Redford

by Anonymousreply 193November 18, 2021 4:10 PM

[quote] My school made us watch it in trig class

Really? The movie is hardly a love triangle.

by Anonymousreply 194November 18, 2021 5:09 PM

Kael was influential but after influencing others, her writing and influence waned. It became obvious that her purple prose increasingly was irritating and she often had nothing really coherent to say.

by Anonymousreply 195November 18, 2021 5:12 PM

I disagreed with Kael about 70% of the time (though I will always love her championing of early Scorsese and Robert Altman, her Nashville review is one of my favorites ever) but she clearly loved movies. She cared about what she was watching, and saw film as an art form, an intellectual avenue to aspire to. This quality in a film critic totally died with Roger Ebert.

by Anonymousreply 196November 18, 2021 5:37 PM

Agreed R196 but in all fairness Hollywood is hardly churning out masses of films that require thoughtful analysis.

by Anonymousreply 197November 18, 2021 5:52 PM

I disagree, r197. For example, I find Chris Pratt's films intriguing and thought-provoking.

by Anonymousreply 198November 18, 2021 6:07 PM

I’m sure they’ll be studied for their deep themes and layers of nuance for generations R198!

by Anonymousreply 199November 18, 2021 6:11 PM

I don't think Kael necessarily saw movies as an art form, which is why she avoided using terms like "cinema" or "film" and why she had such an issue with pretentious European art-house stuff that people tended to praise just because it was French or Italian. She certainly thought movies could reach the realm of "art," but that wasn't necessary for a movie to be good/entertaining. She was a populist.

by Anonymousreply 200November 18, 2021 6:15 PM

Buck NEVER would have read a Pauline Kael review.

by Anonymousreply 201November 18, 2021 6:54 PM

I wish Redford had thrown in a few nods and winks to the MTM Show. For example, Beth could've stumbled upon Conrad's cum-stained briefs in the hamper and icily stated, "I hate spunk." Or maybe when her anti-semitic mother made a crack about Conrad's therapist being Jewish, Beth could've stated, again icily, "Oh come now, mother, they're not all bad. There's this one I used to know when I briefly lived in Minneapolis." Wouldn't that have been fun"

by Anonymousreply 202November 18, 2021 6:58 PM

What is it about this movie and DL? All someone has to do is post Ordinary People in the subject line and within an hour there are hundreds of replies.

by Anonymousreply 203November 18, 2021 7:04 PM

R203. If, after 202 replies, you don't know then you'll never know.

by Anonymousreply 204November 18, 2021 7:08 PM

R203 Go bump an MCU thread. Or something.

by Anonymousreply 205November 18, 2021 7:10 PM

R109: Todd Haynes would have to make the sequel you describe although he's have to deal with less than Sirk-y source material..

by Anonymousreply 206November 18, 2021 7:13 PM

If they did a remake, how would y'all feel about Deb Messing as Beth, Jon Hamm as Calvin, and the fat son from La Brea as Conrad?

by Anonymousreply 207November 18, 2021 7:18 PM

^^ That sounds perfect for the likes of Apple TV Plus. It could be a black comedy.

by Anonymousreply 208November 18, 2021 7:25 PM

R200 Kael really loved and championed French New Wave from what I remember, especially Breathless.

by Anonymousreply 209November 18, 2021 7:27 PM

A gorgeous, very moving movie. Saw it as a pre-teen and found it boring, but a screening about a decade later had me sobbing in the back row. Strange how our reactions to certain movies can change over time with more life experience.

by Anonymousreply 210November 18, 2021 7:46 PM

This entire thread needs a collective MARY!!!

by Anonymousreply 211November 18, 2021 7:51 PM

This would've make a splendid TV movie at the time with Ike Eisenmann, Dennis Cole, and Marcia Rodd.

by Anonymousreply 212November 18, 2021 8:24 PM

[quote]I wish Redford had thrown in a few nods and winks to the MTM Show.

At the end, when Calvin asks Beth if she really loves him, and she clearly does not want to give him the answer he’s looking for, she could just say “Presbyterian”.

When she gets angry at Calvin at the neighbor’s holiday party, on the way out she should have angrily announced to the crowd “And next time make sure the shrimp is fresh!”

by Anonymousreply 213November 18, 2021 9:21 PM

I think Kael disliked it, because the movie gives the illusion that everything would have been fine had Buck survived. There was another scene where Judd Hirsch's character asked Conrad a question, and the movie cuts away before he answers. She felt the movie played it too safe.

And Mary's performance was good, but it just didn't compare with Sissy Spacek's, which was nothing short of a tour de force. Had Mary been nominated the following year, she would have easily won.

by Anonymousreply 214November 18, 2021 10:38 PM

[quote] . I can't imagine there were (are?) many Jews living on the North Shore.

Are you kidding? I went to high school on the North Shore (Highland Park) and every fall the school would empty out on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. There would be like 20 students in the whole achool on those days. It’s ALL Jewish.

by Anonymousreply 215November 18, 2021 10:39 PM

^^ school ^^

by Anonymousreply 216November 18, 2021 10:40 PM

Lee Remick and Natalie Wood campaigned the Beth role. Natalie Wood and Robert Redford were friends. They were in a few movies together. She was angry at him for not choosing her for the part. I think their friendship was strained thereafter.

by Anonymousreply 217November 18, 2021 10:40 PM

Lee Remick, yes. Natalie Wood, No.

by Anonymousreply 218November 18, 2021 10:47 PM

[quote]when Calvin asks Beth if she really loves him, and she clearly does not want to give him the answer he’s looking for, she could just say “Presbyterian”.

"Presbyterian" and "Calvin." Makes sense to me.

by Anonymousreply 219November 18, 2021 11:14 PM

Perfect facial expressions as she receives an unexpected hug.

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by Anonymousreply 220November 18, 2021 11:22 PM

r220, it looks like she’s hoping that he’s going for her jugs.

by Anonymousreply 221November 18, 2021 11:55 PM

R183, I heard that was the other way around. REDFORD didn't want him crying so much. Figures.

by Anonymousreply 222November 19, 2021 1:09 AM

R214 = the Sissy Spacek troll. Mary could easily have won - most were pulling for her - over Sissy Spacek then or any day. Really.

[quote] I love Redford so much, as both and actor and a director,

I've NEVER heard anything close to that at the Datalounge.

by Anonymousreply 223November 19, 2021 1:20 AM

Hey Beth, lighten up! How about a little song, a little dance, a little seltzer down your pants.

by Anonymousreply 224November 19, 2021 2:49 AM

Paramount has been releasing a number of their films on Blu-Ray recently. They had been quite frugal about issuing their films. Ragtime and Reds are being issued on Blu-Ray. As is Heaven Can Wait. So the late 70s, early 80s films are getting attention. So hopefully Ordinary People is issued soon. Crazy to think it has never been released in HD. I wish Criterion would issue it.

by Anonymousreply 225November 19, 2021 2:58 AM

Do you think anyone but a bunch of damaged gay men who had Beth Jarrett for a mother and with they have Calvin Jarrett as their father has any interest in seeing this relic?

by Anonymousreply 226November 19, 2021 3:02 AM

[quote]- most were pulling for her

Sissy won the Golden Globe and swept all the major critics awards. She even earned a Grammy Award nomination for Best Female Country Vocal Performance. Coal Miners Daughter was also one of the top ten grossing films of 1980.

Mary got the Golden Globe for Drama as well as raves by critics, but she was never in any serious contention for the Oscar. It was Sissy's to lose that year.

Coal Miners Daughter was entered into the National Film Registry a couple of years back. Ordinary People has yet to be inducted.

by Anonymousreply 227November 19, 2021 3:02 AM

Does anybody else remember that scene in Coal Miner's Daughter where Loretta found Doo making out with that woman in the back of the car? When they're arguing outside the car Loretta swings her purse at him and she hits his hand. The way he reacts I always wondered if she broke his finger for real.

by Anonymousreply 228November 19, 2021 3:06 AM

And, R226? What's your point?

by Anonymousreply 229November 19, 2021 3:06 AM

R226, ask again when you have finally gained a bare grasp of the English language.

by Anonymousreply 230November 19, 2021 3:08 AM

R217 not for long though.

by Anonymousreply 231November 19, 2021 4:56 AM

[quote] Saw this one for the first time recently. Judd Hirsch seemed great as the therapist to me

I loved Judd Hirschhorn too. He saved Conrad because he was exactly the kind of person he needed.

by Anonymousreply 232November 19, 2021 5:18 AM

The finalists for Beth were Lee Remick, Ann-Margret, Natalie Wood and MTM.

Timothy Hutton said he auditioned with Ann-Margret as Beth.

Lee Remick was so depressed that she lost the role—she had told friends she'd finally found a part that would get her an Oscar—that she fled L.A. and moved to Europe for a while.

As perfect as MTM was, Lee would have done great work in that part. I wish the auditions were filmed; I'd kill to see that footage.

by Anonymousreply 233November 19, 2021 10:51 AM

What is not often discussed is that Beth clearly resents Conrad for his suicide attempt.

She thinks, he saw what Buck's death has done, and now he wants to intentionally inflict this on me again.

She creates distance between them to shield herself from that potential pain.

by Anonymousreply 234November 19, 2021 11:10 AM

Mary’s performance wasn’t really the lead, though, which hurt her chances regardless of the competition. Timothy Hutton was the actual lead but he would have only won in supporting.

by Anonymousreply 235November 19, 2021 12:52 PM

As much as I love this movie and it resonated with me back when it was released, I never felt Hutton’s or MTM’s performances were award worthy.

by Anonymousreply 236November 19, 2021 1:26 PM

MTM, as well as Sutherland, was "against type" which is pure Oscar consideration. Think of all the nice girls who win for playing whores. Hutton is a legacy who didn't suck as an actor, which Hollywood also likes.

by Anonymousreply 237November 19, 2021 1:45 PM

[quote]Natalie Wood and Robert Redford were friends.

They hadn't spoken for almost ten years before Ordinary People.

by Anonymousreply 238November 19, 2021 2:08 PM

[quote] Mary’s performance wasn’t really the lead, though, which hurt her chances regardless of the competition. Timothy Hutton was the actual lead but he would have only won in supporting.

You know that there can be more than one lead in a movie, don’t you?

by Anonymousreply 239November 19, 2021 2:49 PM

Don’t be a dick R239, I’m aware that there can be multiple leads in a movie, but Mary was not a lead. The story was about Timothy Hutton’s character; if anything he and Sutherland were the two leads.

by Anonymousreply 240November 19, 2021 3:15 PM

Mary would’ve certainly beat Mary Steenburgeb if she had angled for supporting rather than lead.

by Anonymousreply 241November 19, 2021 3:17 PM

Steenburgen might have been good, although she probably seemed a little too Southern in those days.

by Anonymousreply 242November 19, 2021 3:24 PM

r240, don’t blame me for your ignorance, or your use of “the lead” and “the actual lead” and not “a lead”.

by Anonymousreply 243November 19, 2021 3:28 PM

With regards to several comments upthread:

The Oldsmobile is exactly what the Jarretts would be driving at the time. Or a Buick Estate Wagon. From local dealer Wenban. These were all over Lake Forest in that time period. Cadillacs were way too nouveau riche. Lincolns somewhat less so. A C class Benz might do, but not an S, too showy. A BMW 5 series, from Knauz Continental Motors on Western. (They’re out in 41 now) would have worked. With regards to Jews on the North Shore, yes Highland Park and Glencoe, and west Wilmette, but certainly not Lake Forest of 1980, and especially not in 1974 when the book was written. Of note, Lake Forest HS had a Black homecoming queen in 1974.

by Anonymousreply 244November 19, 2021 4:14 PM

[quote]Mary was not a lead. The story was about Timothy Hutton’s character; if anything he and Sutherland were the two leads.

Hell no. Moore and Hutton were most definitely the leads. Sutherland was supporting (how in the hell can you think he was a lead? ) Hutton probably had the most screen time, but Moore carried the film every bit as much as he did. They were the two pivotal characters in the story. But they chose to promote Hutton as Supporting.

by Anonymousreply 245November 19, 2021 4:24 PM

[quote] What is not often discussed is that Beth clearly resents Conrad for his suicide attempt

Yes, Beth does resent Conrad’s suicide attempt, which of course, is a cry for help, because she feels he doesn’t deserve any of the attention he’s getting in her self-absorbed worldview. In her distorted thinking, he’s entitled to nothing. Every time she sees Conrad standing there, she longs for Buck, and can’t cope with the subsequent internal tempest that’s tearing her apart.

by Anonymousreply 246November 19, 2021 7:25 PM

She also resents what Conrad did to the bathroom and its grout.

by Anonymousreply 247November 19, 2021 7:56 PM

R238, how do you know if Natalie Wood and Robert Redford haven’t spoken, in 10 years, before “Ordinary People”?

Natalie did a cameo role in “The Candidate”, which starred Robert Redford. This was in 1972. Furthermore, a Natalie Wood biographer, Suzanne Findsad, wrote that Natalie wanted the “Beth” role, but Robert Redford didn’t think she was the right choice, for the part.

by Anonymousreply 248November 19, 2021 8:07 PM

Natalie Wood (at least to me) always had a warm, endearing screen presence and it's difficult to imagine her in the role of Beth.

But, then again, MTM had a similar screen presence and reputation, so who knows, maybe she could've pulled it off. When this movie was first released, I vaguely recall being somewhat surprised at her being chosen to play the mother.

by Anonymousreply 249November 19, 2021 8:28 PM

Natalie always seemed cloyingly sweet, so I can't see her as Beth. Even though Mary also had a rep as little miss sunshine due to her Mary Richards role, if you watch the The MTM Show progress through its 7 seasons, you can see little hints of MTM's hardness and coldness that characterized Beth Jarrett creeping into Mary Richards by season 4 or so.

by Anonymousreply 250November 19, 2021 8:54 PM

[quote]if you watch the The MTM Show progress through its 7 seasons, you can see little hints of MTM's hardness and coldness that characterized Beth Jarrett creeping into Mary Richards by season 4 or so.

Absolutely! For example, she callously laughed throughout the funeral for Chuckles the Clown. Her insensitivity, nay, her [italic]mockery[/italic] of the somber event was shocking.

by Anonymousreply 251November 19, 2021 10:01 PM

The film was brilliant. The only time you see Beth really happy is through flashbacks, when Buck was alive.

by Anonymousreply 252November 19, 2021 11:22 PM

Timothy Hutton was really cute in this. He was never as good looking a man as he was as a twink. It's as if the entire shape of his head changed and lengthened just in a few short years.

by Anonymousreply 253November 19, 2021 11:33 PM

Also, WHET happened to Tim's career in the 90's? He was everywhere for a while and then not so much. Was he mostly a stage actor? Was it the scandal of the toilet paper stuck in his ass? I don't think that L.A. hooker book came out until the early 2000s but I could be wrong.

Are there other Tim Hutton scandals I don't know about?

by Anonymousreply 254November 19, 2021 11:38 PM

Remember The Falcon and the Snowman? Tim playing straight man to Jeff Spucoli.

by Anonymousreply 255November 19, 2021 11:40 PM

Buck's entire shape of head would never have changed and lengthened in just a few short years.

by Anonymousreply 256November 19, 2021 11:45 PM


by Anonymousreply 257November 19, 2021 11:49 PM

[quote] When Conrad surprises her in Buck’s room, or asks her if she took Trig after she just said she did, she interprets it as him messing with her.

Both of these moments have little to do, if at all, with Beth thinking that Conrad is “messing with her.” (That comes later.) The sequence in Buck’s bedroom is centered on Beth’s internal landscape, how protective she is over it, and the lengths she will go to, even subconsciously, to guard it.

When she gasps after Conrad appears and says, “Don’t do that!”, she does so because she’s been caught being vulnerable and can’t bare to have her own fragility reflected back to her, especially through the eyes of her grieving son.

Moments later, the following exchange between the two is probably the most telling sequence regarding Beth’s internal state:

Conrad: I got 74 on a trig quiz.

Beth: 74? Gee, I was awful at trig.

Conrad: You took trig?

Beth: Wait a minute... Did I take trig?

(a perplexed beat, followed by sudden perkiness and a smile)

Beth: I bought you two shirts. They're on your bed.

Beth, mostly preoccupied with surface appearances and keeping things, including emotions, “neat and tidy,” was on autopilot most of the time. When thrust into uncomfortable or unfamiliar circumstances, especially with people from which she felt the need to guard herself - i.e., namely everyone, save for Calvin - she morphed into whatever she felt was necessary to get through and out of the situation. In the scene above (clip below), this propensity manifests as a subconscious lie, i.e., she isn’t even aware that she’s doing it, so on edge is she about having her fallibility exposed.

The real revelation of the film is that, while most people are prone to side with or claim to relate to either Conrad and/or Calvin, most people, even the messiest and most disorganized people, are really more like Beth than they’d care to admit. Similarly to Beth, most of us are more concerned with how we appear, both the impressions we make and how we physically look, than how we truly feel. Like her, we fear being caught at our most human, and we mask our vulnerabilities with frivolities and superficialities.

I find “Ordinary People” and, in particular, Beth Jarrett endlessly revealing and fascinating. Both are elegant, heartbreaking, and achingly relatable.

I am Beth Jarrett.

“You know, I think this can be saved. It’s a nice, clean break.” 🤌🏼

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by Anonymousreply 258November 20, 2021 12:09 AM

[quote] MTM talked in a few interviews about doing dozens of takes of Beth opening the refrigerator to adjust a cherry on top of a cake, but that scene is not in the film.

After reading her biography as a teen, I remember wishing to see and repeatedly imagining this scene play out. I was a true baby Beth Queen.

by Anonymousreply 259November 20, 2021 12:27 AM

I guess Redford decided to go full on with the French toast massacre instead.

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by Anonymousreply 260November 20, 2021 12:31 AM

[quote] What is it about this movie and DL? All someone has to do is post Ordinary People in the subject line and within an hour there are hundreds of replies.

Maybe this is how they sit around and talk at the hospital, but we're not at the hospital.

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by Anonymousreply 261November 20, 2021 12:33 AM

[quote] how do you know if Natalie Wood and Robert Redford haven’t spoken, in 10 years, before “Ordinary People”?

Redford said they lost touch in that tribute to her on TCM.

by Anonymousreply 262November 20, 2021 12:44 AM

Beth would have made one hell of a Spider-Man villain!

by Anonymousreply 263November 20, 2021 2:22 AM

Speaking of sexual tension in this story, the novel featured several scenes of Conrad and Jeannine exploring their bodies and losing virginity to each other. Conrad also masturbates a lot in the novel, and has conflicting feelings about it.

by Anonymousreply 264November 20, 2021 3:44 AM

R244 No the car they should have driven was a Volvo. That’s always been the “we have money but don’t like to show off car.” Oldsmobiles and Buicks are not for families with money. And I’m sure you realize C and S class were about 20 years away from 1980.

by Anonymousreply 265November 20, 2021 3:54 AM

Jeez, so many OP threads... I just asked this on another one...... did they ever touch upon Conrad and Beth’s relationship before Buck died? Like in the book even?

by Anonymousreply 266November 20, 2021 3:56 AM

Volvos were just tarting to be the car of choice for that crowd. they lasted forever but needed a lot of visits to the garage along the way. A successful middle aged professional would have owned an Olds or possibly a Buick, which was somewhat redundant in those days. A Caddy or Lincoln would have been seen as too showy, a Chevy or Ford, a bit ordinary.

by Anonymousreply 267November 20, 2021 4:57 AM

Tim was so adorable

by Anonymousreply 268November 20, 2021 6:24 AM

Timothy Hutton in OP was my dream boyfriend from the first time I saw the movie around age 14.

So vulnerable and sensitive! I could fix him with my love!

Unfortunately, this became a pattern IRL, which is largely why I'm single at 45.

by Anonymousreply 269November 20, 2021 8:13 AM

[quote]how do you know if Natalie Wood and Robert Redford haven’t spoken, in 10 years, before “Ordinary People”?

Not only did Redford say they "lost touch" for years after The Candidate in 1971, he has trouble maintaining friendships and relationships. Director Sydney Pollack stopped speaking to Redford for years, Redford neglected his marriage and family so much it led to divorce. He's famous for not returning calls, showing up late or not at all. He had a drinking problem that got him kicked out of college and extended into adulthood. Most of this is contained in the authorized biography of Redford.

by Anonymousreply 270November 20, 2021 2:10 PM

R267- ANY car will last a long time if you throw enough money at it.

by Anonymousreply 271November 20, 2021 2:42 PM

We should start a thread Mommie Dearest style but from the movie Ordinary People

- BUCK would have know where to find the boys AND the booze

by Anonymousreply 272November 20, 2021 2:49 PM

R272: there's already a thread like that which has died.

by Anonymousreply 273November 20, 2021 2:54 PM

[quote]there's already a thread like that which has died.

Much like your precious Buck!

by Anonymousreply 274November 20, 2021 3:45 PM

[quote]Speaking of sexual tension in this story, the novel featured several scenes of Conrad and Jeannine exploring their bodies and losing virginity to each other.

I preferred the sweetness of Jeannine inviting Conrad into the house for breakfast.

[quote]Conrad also masturbates a lot in the novel, and has conflicting feelings about it.

In the film, he did tell his shrink he jerks off a lot.

by Anonymousreply 275November 21, 2021 12:00 AM

R275 "Jesus, you're really weird! What about you? What do you feel, huh? Do you jack off or jerk off or whatever you call it?"

"What do you think?"

"What do I think? I think you're married to a fat lady, and you go home and you FUCK THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS OUT OF HER!"

by Anonymousreply 276November 21, 2021 12:12 AM

I’m glad they didn’t insert sex into the movie. It would have ruined how the audience felt about the character and his innocence. In the movie, Conrad is just beginning to bud, as it should be.

by Anonymousreply 277November 21, 2021 12:48 AM

R244. Yes I goofed on the Benz. It would have been the 300 series, not C series. See attached. There most definitely was an S class at the time. Volvos were making inroads for sure, but mainly in Evanston, Wilmette and Highland Park. R267 a Ford was acceptable as long as it was a Country Squire wagon. But by 1980 the Buick Estate Wagon was the one to have. But that was mom’s car. I knew people whose dad drove a Pinto to the train station, and then boarded the private parlor car “Deerpath”. Now known as Car 553

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by Anonymousreply 278November 21, 2021 1:08 AM

R276, that, along with the scene where he sings, starting with him singing that stupid "Ah! You're Just Saying That!" to Jeannine are unwatchable.

by Anonymousreply 279November 21, 2021 1:09 AM

I just looked at the IMDB entry for it because I thought that someone like a Brad Pitt or someone along those lines was an extra. Instead it was Michael T. Weiss.

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by Anonymousreply 280November 21, 2021 1:13 AM

Was it after the dailies from OP that MTM decided to get a facelift?

R278 yes that was one, along with the SELs (450, 280, etc) I guess the 450 would have been slightly too “showy” - maybe. A lot of thats bullshit though.

R279 I totally agree. Along with the “fuzzy” Buck flashback.

by Anonymousreply 281November 21, 2021 1:21 AM

R277, Redford has trouble with topics like sexual expression. So be it.

by Anonymousreply 282November 21, 2021 1:23 AM

I've never read the book, but I remember how much attention it got, because it was an unsolicited manuscript that got read, published, and became a hit for a first-time author, IIRC.

Someone told me that Calvin's drinking is a much bigger issue in the book than the movie.

Anyone remember if that was the case?

by Anonymousreply 283November 21, 2021 1:26 AM

Here is an interesting interview with Timothy Hutton about Ordinary People.

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by Anonymousreply 284November 21, 2021 1:55 AM

I really liked Timothy Hutton in Ordinary People but he peaked in that movie. Nothing he did after Ordinary People was memorable.

Basically he was a one hit wonder.

by Anonymousreply 285November 21, 2021 4:52 PM

TAPS (1981) was a good movie, R285 - I saw it again last night - and Hutton is remarkably good. So is Tom Cruise for a change (he was 19), and Sean Penn.

by Anonymousreply 286November 21, 2021 5:14 PM

He was in several bad movies and their stench clung to him.

by Anonymousreply 287November 21, 2021 5:22 PM

TH was in two very popular and well received movies by both audiences and critics. He was initially seen as the next rising superstar, but, like a thief in the night, he disappeared from that arc almost as quickly as he was launched into it.

I watched OP and Taps when they were first released and wondered why, many years later, why hadn't Hutton made it into established A-listdom like Cruise and Penn had? He had the acting chops and screen presence easily comparable to them.

Some people say his ego gave him a bad rap and that mostly bad role choices helped to seal his fate, and, that may be true. Hollywood has an insatiable appetite for the next big thing and waits for no one, so maybe ego and lack of career foresight destined him to third string status.

by Anonymousreply 288November 21, 2021 5:43 PM

R288 Part of the reason was a crowded field at the time. He was as handsome as Cruise (and more handsome than Sean Penn - don't deny it!), but he was less willing to stretch himself in roles that would please audiences but displease him as an artist. He was offered "Risky Business," but felt it was too juvenile and Brat Pack-ish. He chose to go work with Sidney Lumet, one of his creative idols, instead. The movie they made together kinda stunk, but he wanted to do a Lumet picture.

But a HUGE part of why he wasn't in too many movies right after this peak - a reason that rarely gets reported, thanks to NDAs and legal rules - was his lengthy lawsuit against MGM. Right after "Taps" was a hit, he signed to do a movie for MGM called "Roadshow." It was supposed to be this grand Western, co-starring Mary Steenburgen (who won an Oscar the same night he did) and a few other stars. The studio paid the main actors for a holding deal, which meant they couldn't take other projects while waiting for "Roadshow" to start filming. But the movie never got started, and Tim and Mary sat around NOT acting for a while. They were allowed to do short projects, but nothing big and nothing else for MGM while this deal was locked-in. Both eventually sued MGM for lost wages and lost opportunities. Mary S settled quietly, but Tim took it all the way to court and got about $10 million in the late 80s. By then, the peak of his bankability had passed, and he had been eclipsed by Tom Cruise, Charlie Sheen, a reformed Tom Hanks, and a looming Denzel Washington. This lengthy waiting period, combined with a string of weird creative choices he made while waiting and the way he kicked a major studio in the balls with a $10 million lawsuit, basically sank his career before he turned 30.

He's still acting, and has had less of an ego over the years than those other studs of his peer group, but he will always be one of those "What Ever Happened to..." examples. People know him for his baffling marriage to Debra Winger, his TV-movie dad, and now his sex-assault accusation. And they also know him for making one great movie for every five stinkers he's in.

Check him out in A&E's Nero Wolfe Mysteries. You can find them on YouTube. They're outstanding little TV movies about a master detective and his wisecracking stud of an assistant (Hutton). Period costumes, great production values, and all the stuff that should excite a cultured homosexual. He says that period was the most fun he ever had on a set, and you can tell he loved it while it lasted.

by Anonymousreply 289November 21, 2021 9:21 PM

I liked a lot of Sidney Lumet's Daniel (1983), John Schlesinger's Falcon and the Snowman (1985), again with Penn, and Hutton in them.

Hutton didn't succeed in becoming a full fledged box office name because of what R289 said, and because he was NOT as handsome as the other guys like Cruise, even Penn. Timothy Hutton always looked like a gawky teenager, like he had trouble transitioning to an adult. Cruise can be boyish his entire career because he's better looking. That said, Hutton is a character actor who plays an array of different kinds of roles and not necessarily the lead. Character actors usually have a longer shelf life than leads. But there's something about him that doesn't fit, his aged boyishness and young man's voice.

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by Anonymousreply 290November 21, 2021 10:06 PM

R290 Tom Cruise is also as short as a boy, and probably sleeps in a magic box that zaps him with magical Xenu waves.

Hutton probably spends his nights at his farmhouse, pouring scotch and watching basketball games. That'll age a person.

by Anonymousreply 291November 21, 2021 10:47 PM

Cruise is a horrible actor--limited range and basically a male ingenue. He visibly tried hard in roles that were beyond him, but wasn't great. Nonetheless, he was a "star". Hutton tried to be more of an actor--more range but less star charisma.

by Anonymousreply 292November 21, 2021 11:05 PM

R292, Cruise has a magnetism on screen . He’s very good looking and has done so many memorable characters in HUGE hits . Me thinks you’re jealous. Most bitchy queens are just envious assholes who love to stir the pot.

by Anonymousreply 293November 21, 2021 11:37 PM

Just saw Jerry Maguire this afternoon, R293 is correct. I also like Cruise in the first Mission Impossible, The Color of Money, Taps and A Few Good Men. Cruise was made for the big screen, and considering his limited acting talent, that's a good thing.

Btw, R293, having a HUGE hit does not make one a good actor.

by Anonymousreply 294November 21, 2021 11:43 PM

Tim Hutton should have made a movie with Paula Prentiss playing his mother.

I loved his father Jim in all of his movies....and I love Tim in all of his......

by Anonymousreply 295November 21, 2021 11:45 PM

Also, Andrew McCarthy came along a few years later and was a similar type to Hutton and wound up replacing him.

by Anonymousreply 296November 21, 2021 11:58 PM

Hutton is way more talented than McCarthy . Andrew was very wooden .

by Anonymousreply 297November 22, 2021 12:11 AM

Hasn't Timmy been cancelled?

by Anonymousreply 298November 22, 2021 12:12 AM

I watched OP last night. I’ve seen it countless times, but the final scene between Calvin and Conrad always makes me cry.

by Anonymousreply 299November 22, 2021 12:16 AM

Cruise was amazing in Born on the Fourth of July. I think we can all admit that.

by Anonymousreply 300November 22, 2021 12:27 AM

Cruise is very similar to Joan Crawford in that they both work very hard at 'acting' and it is usually very noticeable. Sometimes its works, oftentimes it doesn't, but there is never any ease to what they do.

by Anonymousreply 301November 22, 2021 12:29 AM

Don't get me started on Tom Hanks!

by Anonymousreply 302November 22, 2021 12:38 AM

Crawford was a better actor. Cruise's earnestness get more annoying as he gets older.

by Anonymousreply 303November 22, 2021 12:42 AM

So, he was cleared of the rape charges, but the show he was in had been cancelled.

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by Anonymousreply 304November 22, 2021 12:51 AM

That shows the real consequences people experience when a false accusation is made against them.

by Anonymousreply 305November 22, 2021 1:05 AM

Matthew Modine was offered Top Gun and turned it down to to his personal beliefs! Tim Cruise was always very career driven and shrewd. I prefer his earlier films to all the action stuff he does now.

by Anonymousreply 306November 22, 2021 1:42 AM

R300, that film sucked, so no "amazing" for Tom.

by Anonymousreply 307November 22, 2021 1:56 AM

Modine is a woke wuss

by Anonymousreply 308November 22, 2021 1:57 AM

Andrew McCarthy and Timothy Hutton = two adolescent-like boys who never grew up enough to manhood to play adult roles.

by Anonymousreply 309November 22, 2021 1:59 AM

Oops, typo city... Tom Cruise... and due to his political beliefs.

R309, he really blew it giving up that role. He’s all but forgotten now.

by Anonymousreply 310November 22, 2021 2:00 AM

I've heard from someone who does costumes on Toronto film sets that she worked with Hutton on a TV series that was filmed here in Toronto and she said Timothy Hutton was a complete asshole. She said the same of Russell Crowe.

by Anonymousreply 311November 22, 2021 2:13 AM

R311 was that Nero Wolfe? That's the only series he ever filmed in Toronto, and it was 21 years ago. Your friend has a good memory.

by Anonymousreply 312November 22, 2021 2:42 AM

R300 he was also great in Rain Man - I think that’s his best actually.

Agree Hutton and McCarthy are the same type - that’s a good call, it doesn’t mean they’re of equal talent like someone was saying above.

by Anonymousreply 313November 22, 2021 3:01 AM

R225, wow I never even thought of a Criterion ORDINARY PEOPLE. What a great idea! They should grab a new commentary from Redford while he's still alive!

by Anonymousreply 314November 22, 2021 4:15 AM

I think Buck was fucking the Lazenboy boy. They were both cute.

by Anonymousreply 315November 22, 2021 4:17 AM

[quote]They should grab a new commentary from Redford while he's still alive!

That just made me feel sad!

by Anonymousreply 316November 22, 2021 9:48 AM

Blu Ray coming next March!!

The power of DL.

by Anonymousreply 317November 22, 2021 6:50 PM

I just saw a picture of him taken last month, R316. He was gaunt and holding on to his German wife. And I mean HOLDING ON like he needed to hold on to stay upright. His "hair" was partially combed, not flat across his forehead as usual like he thinks he's 40. Somethin's up.

by Anonymousreply 318November 22, 2021 7:04 PM

[quote] Somethin's up

Not at his age.

by Anonymousreply 319November 22, 2021 7:19 PM

Why DLers are so obsessed with this performance I will never understand. You all must have had icy disapproving mothers.

by Anonymousreply 320November 22, 2021 7:21 PM

Mine was an icy, disapproving father, r320. Happy now?

by Anonymousreply 321November 22, 2021 7:24 PM

Overjoyed, r321!

by Anonymousreply 322November 22, 2021 7:25 PM

I'd like to have seen what Jill Clayburgh could've done with the role of Beth. Mary excelled as a comic actress, not so much as a dramatic actress. Ordinary People was her Friendly Fire.

by Anonymousreply 323November 22, 2021 7:45 PM

[quote]Why DLers are so obsessed with this performance I will never understand. You all must have had icy disapproving mothers.

Did we all have to be locked in an institution and sexually abused in order to enjoy Jessica Lange's performance in "Frances"?

Did we all have to have been forced to choose which of our children to turn over to the Nazis to be exterminated in order to enjoy Meryl Streep's performance in "Sophie's choice"?

Did we all need to have had a mother or sister who was a lesbian serial killer in order to enjoy Charlize Theron's performance in "Monster"?

In other words, Happy Monday, cunt!

by Anonymousreply 324November 22, 2021 7:45 PM

[quote] Cruise was amazing in Born on the Fourth of July. I think we can all admit that.

No we cannot, but this thread isn't about him or that movie.

by Anonymousreply 325November 22, 2021 7:53 PM

I wonder what Faye Dunaway would have done to OP if she had played the part of Beth

by Anonymousreply 326November 22, 2021 8:03 PM

The only other actress I can visualize doing justice to the role of Beth is Lee Remick.

by Anonymousreply 327November 22, 2021 8:07 PM

That was in the 30s. It didn't mean they were close in the 60s or 70s. If she was close to Joan, she probably would have gotten her on her anthology show or The Big Valley.

by Anonymousreply 328November 22, 2021 8:08 PM

R328, are you talking about Barbara Stanwyck and Joan Crawford in the wrong thread?

If so, -

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by Anonymousreply 329November 22, 2021 8:13 PM

[quote]I'd like to have seen what Jill Clayburgh could've done with the role of Beth.

Would Jill have done justice to "Buck never would have BEEN in the hospital" the way she did to "You tell Patty! You tell Patty you're sorry!"

I think so.

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by Anonymousreply 330November 22, 2021 8:24 PM

I just rewatched this movie and a scene that I paid no attention to the first time I saw it I found really endearing this time. The scene when Calvin and Conrad are seated at the breakfast table and Calvin is having a conversation with Beth who is off in another room.

Calvin: "I saw Mort Swain. His sister died."

Beth: "The one from Idaho?"

Calvin: "The one with the restaurant."

Beth: "Did she die in Idaho?"

Calvin: "I guess so. Why?"

Beth: "You said she was always traveling. I just... wondered if she died in Idaho."

Calvin: "I don't know. Maybe she died in Idaho. Maybe Kansas City."

The conversation is amusingly insipid. And the way Conrad turns to his father and laughs and the way his father laughs back at him is so cute.

by Anonymousreply 331November 22, 2021 10:20 PM

I think many WASP women were raised to suppress their personalities. They were judged by how well they lived up to certain insanely high standards of superficial social and domestic perfection. What you present is all that matters, not who you are inside. There’s something almost Prussian or samurai-like about the level of commitment and self-abnegation required. MTM embodies that really well in Beth.

by Anonymousreply 332November 22, 2021 10:31 PM

From everything I've read about Mary (and Grant), she was just incredibly ambitious and career-driven. People like that tend to be cold and calculating, and overly concerned with appearances. I don't think Beth was exactly a stretch for Mary.

by Anonymousreply 333November 22, 2021 10:48 PM

Shut up, Conrad! r320

by Anonymousreply 334November 22, 2021 10:50 PM

It was interesting that they got Conrad a Jewish therapist. Beth's mother was anti-semitic, and it was hard to believe Beth wasn't of that mindset as well. Wouldn't have made more sense for them to get a therapist who was a WASP like them? I'm sure whatever country club she and Calvin belonged to had some sort of gentleman's agreement about not admitting Jews and blacks.

by Anonymousreply 335November 22, 2021 10:54 PM

r335, I got the impression Beth thought all therapists were equally silly, so choosing one wasn't anything she wanted to be involved with.

by Anonymousreply 336November 22, 2021 11:00 PM

Beth's mother- What's this doctor's name? Beth- Berger Beth's mother- A JEWish doctor? Beth-I don't know I suppose hes Jewish, maybe just German.

Great dialogue between two bitches.

by Anonymousreply 337November 22, 2021 11:32 PM

[quote]I think many WASP women were raised to suppress their personalities.

Oh, please, R332. What's in you is in you, a person is not "trained" to think/behave in a certain way except at the dinner table. And very few WASPS are a part of "high standards of superficial social and domestic perfection."

[quote]It was interesting that they got Conrad a Jewish therapist

That was a stereotype too. Not that I didn't like the character.

by Anonymousreply 338November 23, 2021 12:47 AM

R323 Oh sweet Jesus, that movie sucked! Carol Burnett is a national treasure, but the way she played that obsessed nutjob Gold Star Mother was just too far.

But funny you should mention it. That was Timmy's first film role, and he did great as a sad teenager mainly frustrated that his parents are being consumed with rage over how their other son died in Vietnam.

by Anonymousreply 339November 23, 2021 12:58 AM

"Are you leaving because Patti is so fucking annoying?"

by Anonymousreply 340November 23, 2021 1:01 AM

Interesting that smug Redford was that actor who couldn't/wouldn't rehearse, who insisted that movie actors should "just do it," much to the dismay of co-stars like Newman, Hoffman, Streisand and others. Then as a director, he rehearsed his actors to death looking for development and the Great Performance. What a self serving asshole.

by Anonymousreply 341November 23, 2021 1:35 AM

R341 he won the Oscar for directing it I think that’s the ultimate last laugh.

by Anonymousreply 342November 23, 2021 2:32 AM

Or maybe Redford realized that Streisand and Newman et al were right in the end and tried it their way?

by Anonymousreply 343November 23, 2021 2:37 AM

Or maybe Redford realized what a dumb dick he'd been for thirty years?

by Anonymousreply 344November 23, 2021 3:12 AM

MTM likely got the best actress Oscar nom because of the contrast of playing Mary Richards, typecast as a sweet, caring person to Beth Jarrett, a cold and calculating woman. It was a shock back in the day.

by Anonymousreply 345November 23, 2021 3:24 AM

Playing against type is often a successful Oscar stratgey.

by Anonymousreply 346November 23, 2021 4:08 AM

Timothy Hutton and Debra Winger must have had some good fights.

by Anonymousreply 347November 23, 2021 4:41 AM

Timothy Hutton and Debra Winger must have had some good coke.

by Anonymousreply 348November 23, 2021 4:46 AM

[quote]MTM likely got the best actress Oscar nom because of the contrast of playing Mary Richards

FFS, people! Whether she played against type or not, she got a nomination because her performance was just fucking great. And if not for Sissy Spacek that same year, she would have won.

by Anonymousreply 349November 23, 2021 5:04 AM

[quote]R135 “In our lucid moments, we reminded ourselves that this was the heartfelt yet temporary phenomenon of location shooting. He had a longtime commitment and wasn't interested in changing that life." (MTM on her on set affair)

Translation: Your pussy stinks.

by Anonymousreply 350November 23, 2021 5:24 AM

Bev Walsh was wonderful.

by Anonymousreply 351November 23, 2021 5:29 AM

[quote] Did we all have to be locked in an institution and sexually abused in order to enjoy Jessica Lange's performance in "Frances"? Did we all have to have been forced to choose which of our children to turn over to the Nazis to be exterminated in order to enjoy Meryl Streep's performance in "Sophie's choice"? Did we all need to have had a mother or sister who was a lesbian serial killer in order to enjoy Charlize Theron's performance in "Monster"?

Dataloungers are not obsessed with those performances. Those performances get acclaim here, but they're not discussed constantly the way MTM's performance in "Ordinary People" was.

And, those performances were quite a bit better than MTM's.

by Anonymousreply 352November 23, 2021 5:38 AM

Let's get real. MTM was hardly great in the role, merely serviceable, mostly because she was playing herself, was elevated by the dynamic performance around her, and had Redford to probably rein in her bag of sitcom acting tricks. I thought Sutherland and Hutton gave much more nuanced performances, especially Sutherland.

by Anonymousreply 353November 23, 2021 6:31 AM

YOU get real, motherfucker!

by Anonymousreply 354November 23, 2021 6:33 AM

"Wasn't Mary really just playing an exaggerated version of herself?"

That's tough to do. DL loves to dismiss performers as "playing themselves" but it's tough, in some cases more so than a from-whole-cloth role. "Being" oneself isn't hard, but "playing" oneself on screen isn't just being oneself in front of a camera.

by Anonymousreply 355November 23, 2021 6:44 AM

I think someone more known for dramatic acting, like Linda Evans or Joan Van Ark, would've done more with the role.

by Anonymousreply 356November 23, 2021 6:51 AM

Hell, maybe they should have just cast Valerie Harper instead of MTM.

Conrad, I made you French toast. You can either eat it, or just apply it directly to your hips.

Yeah ma, his doctor is Jewish. You always wanted me to marry one, but suddenly he can't shrink my kid's head?

Whaddya tokkin' about here? Buck wouldn'ta BEEN in that damn hospital!

I hated trig. First day of class the teacher looks at me and says "Looks like we'll need a lot more fabric to make YOUR dress!" Come to think of it, I guess that was home economics, not trig.

Calvin, do ya do that on purpose? Hey Brenda, come 'ere! I wanna go to Europe and first thing Calvin says is "Sure, let's take the kid along! Can you beat that!"

It's really important for you to hurt me, isn't it? Is it because I'm fat?

by Anonymousreply 357November 23, 2021 7:18 AM

Georgia Engel as Beth!

by Anonymousreply 358November 23, 2021 7:29 AM

I see Louise Lasser.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 359November 23, 2021 7:47 AM

R337 next thing you know they’ll have black players in the NBA.

A Jewish Doctah?? Who’s ever heard of such a thing?

by Anonymousreply 360November 23, 2021 9:50 AM

Linda Lavin or Bonnie Franklin as Beth. Thoughts?

by Anonymousreply 361November 23, 2021 1:35 PM

R361 Bonnie Franklin as Beth Jarret

Dammit Conrad !


Buck would have never made me hit him!

Conrad goes running out of the room

Beth slow jogs braless and titties flopping in a green cowl neck sweater over to Calvin

And demands “Hold me Calvin, I’m scared!”

by Anonymousreply 362November 23, 2021 1:46 PM

R353 agree somewhat. Mary was perfect in the part and a revelation playing against Mary Richards, but Sissy blew her out of the water in terms of performance. I think Sutherland and his low key style worked against him getting a nomination. He was truly robbed though. I would’ve taken John Hurt out, who’s makeup did most of the work and gave a nomination to DS.

by Anonymousreply 363November 23, 2021 1:50 PM

Linda Lavin? Never.

After all there are no lyrics to Pachelbel's Canon in D.

by Anonymousreply 364November 23, 2021 2:15 PM

R345, right, but it wasn't much of a shock because that's the way her performance was promoted - to DEATH.

by Anonymousreply 365November 23, 2021 2:23 PM

Someone should do an all gay version. Jim Parsons as "Seth", Matt Bomer as Calvin, and some Helix twink as Conrad.

by Anonymousreply 366November 23, 2021 2:30 PM

I'm actually surprised Ryan Murphy hasn't done a Beth Jarrett prequel yet starring you-know-who.

by Anonymousreply 367November 23, 2021 2:32 PM

A Beth Jarrett sequel would be amazing.

Beth filed for divorce BEFORE Calvin did, of course. Her pride couldn’t fathom being served with divorce papers first. She received ample alimony, because she wanted to maintain the lifestyle of which she was accustomed. She relocated to Houston to be near Ward, her brother. He has that swimming pool he’s so proud of.

She married a man she does not love. He’ll be richer than Calvin, of course. She had to marry up, for appearances. Her second husband was a doormat. She controlled him with her emotional warfare until he died. He adored her, of course. He did NOT to buy a Scotch Pine Christmas tree for the holidays. Buck would’ve never bought a Scotch Pine Christmas tree.

Conrad was the next of kin. They hadn’t spoken in 35 years. She hadn’t mellowed over the years. She was more angry, more hardened and colder.

With ample money, her last years were comfortable, though she was tough on the home care nurses. She fired them and hired other ones. (Remember, she fired the maid for not dusting the living room properly.)

She did not reach out to Conrad during her final days. She died alone and disinherited Conrad. She hated his wife anyway and refused to see her grandchildren.

She had a grand funeral. Conrad and his family were not in attendance. Her body was transported back to Lake Forest, IL. She was interred next to Buck. Ever the efficient planner, she bought the cemetery plot next to his. Her headstone was inscribed as “beloved wife and mother.” Conrad and his family were omitted from her obituary. Buck was mentioned. Buck would’ve never been omitted from her obituary.

by Anonymousreply 368November 23, 2021 8:49 PM

Did I ever tell you about the time back in St. Olaf when we attempted to launch an all-chicken production of Ordinary People?

by Anonymousreply 369November 23, 2021 8:52 PM

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but this movie FINALLY has a blu ray scheduled, for March. Hard to believe a film of its stature would be neglected on HD disc for so long. Glad they’re rectifying that.

This is my boyfriend’s favorite film and he watches it once a year. I’ll be happy to upgrade it for him. (I don’t particularly care for it.)

by Anonymousreply 370November 23, 2021 8:58 PM

Wow, a sequel would be a great vehicle for Mariska Hargitay and Chris Meloni. Dick Wolf could produce it. Someone needs to make this happen.

by Anonymousreply 371November 23, 2021 9:00 PM

I find this film dreary. And too slowly paced.

by Anonymousreply 372November 23, 2021 9:40 PM

me too, r372. Me and my bf would pick a good Chris Pratt movie or even a Adam Sandler movie any day a the week over Ordinary People. Sounds like it id be pretty boring.

by Anonymousreply 373November 23, 2021 9:52 PM

It’s just not a very creative film - very pedantic.

by Anonymousreply 374November 23, 2021 9:55 PM

[quote]She died alone and disinherited Conrad. She hated his wife anyway and refused to see her grandchildren.

Very good, R368, but I didn't believe the part above.

by Anonymousreply 375November 23, 2021 10:46 PM

[quote]Did we all have to be locked in an institution and sexually abused in order to enjoy Jessica Lange's performance in "Frances"?

That was just one Circuit Party that happened over 10 years ago!

by Anonymousreply 376November 23, 2021 11:32 PM

Great film- as they say- don’t make ‘em like they used to- My mother was a lot like Beth although Mom was tough as nails- not Beth- she’s cold and she’s weak. My Mom would hold all manner of dysfunction together to put on a show- to cover.

by Anonymousreply 377November 23, 2021 11:33 PM

[quote]Me and my bf would pick a good Chris Pratt movie or even a Adam Sandler movie

Perhaps you should instead pick an instructional video on grammar.

by Anonymousreply 378November 24, 2021 12:17 AM

r378=pretentious queen, you should mind you're own business.

by Anonymousreply 379November 24, 2021 12:39 AM

[quote]pretentious queen, you should mind you're own business.

Oh, honey.

by Anonymousreply 380November 24, 2021 12:40 AM

^F off, looser.

by Anonymousreply 381November 24, 2021 12:46 AM

R368, what do you propose? I’d be interested because I might have misinterpreted it.

I can only see Beth dying alone. She alienated her relatives. I think she’d disinherit Conrad because he ceased taking her abuse. She would refuse to see Conrad during her final days.

As for Conrad’s wife, I’ll assume he married his girlfriend, Jeanine. She came from a lower middle class background. Beth expected her sons to marry within their class, or higher. Jeanine wouldn’t properly dust the living room, wouldn’t set a perfect dinner table, or wouldn’t wear the right clothes.

Regarding the grandchildren, Beth might have had a relationship with them, but she’d be cold and distant. Yet, if Conrad had a son that resembled Buck, she might dote on him. She buried all the love she had with Buck.

by Anonymousreply 382November 24, 2021 12:47 AM

R361- What about Beatrice Arthur as Beth Jarrett.

God'll get you for that Conrad!

by Anonymousreply 383November 24, 2021 12:54 AM

Beth reminds me a lot of my grandmother. Cold and icy, overly concerned with appearances, with not a single maternal bone in her body. The maid basically raised my father and his two brothers. She and my grandfather made a striking couple, but beneath the surface there was so much dysfunction that they refused to let the world see. It was masked by good looks, expensive clothes and cars, perfect children, and a tastefully decorated home. I think she tried to show love to we grandkids later in life, but it was very forced. Even at a young age, it never felt authentic. I don't think she was capable of love. My dad was the same way, and I too have issues in that area, but unlike my grandmother and father, I am very self-aware of the fact that I tend to be narcissistic and egocentric.

by Anonymousreply 384November 24, 2021 12:59 AM

A lot of these old grandparents are of the school 'you shouldn't hold them' when they scream because you'll spoil them.

by Anonymousreply 385November 24, 2021 1:35 AM

Michelle Lee could’ve done it.

by Anonymousreply 386November 24, 2021 2:06 AM

Deb Messing would be perfection in a remake. I love her. An underrated gem of a dramatic actress, aside from a brilliant comic actress. Very much in the tradition of MTM.

by Anonymousreply 387November 24, 2021 2:10 AM

If they really wanted to make it interesting, BETTE MIDLER! Every time someone mentioned Buck, she would go all bug eyed and then squint her eyes. "How DARE you mention his name."

by Anonymousreply 388November 24, 2021 2:20 AM

Streisand could’ve done it.

by Anonymousreply 389November 24, 2021 2:22 AM

Beth never enjoyed sex. In fact, Beth and Calvin stopped having sex soon after Conrad was born. She was so distant and cold that Calvin slept in the guest bedroom nearly every night, he'd usually wait until everyone in the house had gone to bed to try to keep the illusion that he was in a loving marriage. However, the boys had known for some time. She could be warm and caring when the occasion called for it but those episodes were so brief one usually thought they had imagined it. If you thought it through, you'd conclude that she could be Medea. It wasn't hard to imagine her spiking her meals with slow acting, hard to detect poisons and finely ground glass.

Beth came back to the house, but dreamed for the day when she would be alone. She would pass the time imagining her being the sole occupant of that enormous house, not having to speak to anyone, not having to smile, and not having to pretend to love.

by Anonymousreply 390November 24, 2021 2:28 AM

[quote]Streisand could’ve done it.

CALVIN: Tell me something. Do you love me? Do you really love me?

Beth pauses, formulating her response.

BETH: I get four-hundred dollars for a straight lay, three-hundred for a hand job, and five-hundred for head. If you want to wear my panties, that's another hundred.

by Anonymousreply 391November 24, 2021 2:29 AM

Few people know that after divorcing Calvin, Beth changed her name and “Flirted With Disaster” by moving to New York, converting to Judaism, marrying again, and adopting a son named Mel.

All the while maintaining her control freak impulses but under the new guise of being overly emotive and high strung... with the help of a good bra.

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by Anonymousreply 392November 24, 2021 3:21 AM

Beth would never converted to Judaism. Carole Lazenby would've had a coronary on the spot.

by Anonymousreply 393November 24, 2021 3:29 AM

Her screeching on the golf course was hilarious.

by Anonymousreply 394November 24, 2021 3:47 AM

Actually, several weeks after supposedly flying that morning to Houston, Beth was found riding up and down the escalators for hours on end at Neiman Marcus on North Michigan Avenue wearing the same clothes she had on when she left the house and yelling “isn’t this crazy?” to all the other shoppers.

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by Anonymousreply 395November 24, 2021 3:59 AM

R393- I have some further news for you-

Conrad NEVER would have converted to Judaism.

by Anonymousreply 396November 24, 2021 4:06 AM

R392 I still think that’s her best performance but maybe that’s just me.

by Anonymousreply 397November 24, 2021 4:15 AM

I think she’s great in the performance but suspect that so much of the noise about it was because she was playing against type - the brittle antithesis of chirpy Mary Richards. In the same way that beautiful actresses get lauded for uglying up (ref C. Theron).

by Anonymousreply 398November 24, 2021 4:44 AM

I'm just wondering if anyone here thinks that MTM received so much acclaim for her performance in OP because she was playing against type. I mean, Beth was quite different from Mary Richards, so she was playing against type. Has anyone thought of that, i.e., that she was playing against type? I'm asking because no one in this thread seems to have mentioned that she played against type. So that's why I'm wondering if anyone has given any thought as to her playing against type. So what are your thoughts? Was she good because she was playing against type? Or was she good in her own right, regardless of whether she was playing against type? Playing against type? Playing against type. Playing against type.

by Anonymousreply 399November 24, 2021 4:51 AM

R399- It's so TEDIOUS when people discuss the same topic OVER AND OVER.

by Anonymousreply 400November 24, 2021 5:05 AM

Not so tedious that you didn’t read through 399 replies before posting, R400.

And here you are.

by Anonymousreply 401November 24, 2021 5:07 AM

She probably would have won the Oscar if she hadn’t tried so hard to play against type.

by Anonymousreply 402November 24, 2021 5:12 AM

That's an interesting point, R402. I hadn't thought about the "playing against type" angle. Hmmm....

by Anonymousreply 403November 24, 2021 5:19 AM

Buck never would've played against type.

by Anonymousreply 404November 24, 2021 5:20 AM

Edith Bunker ( Jean Stapleton) as Beth Jarrett would have been an interesting choice.

Buck would NEVER live in Astoria , Queens.

by Anonymousreply 405November 24, 2021 5:22 AM

I’ve been watching MTM in Dick Van Dyke. Feel like most people don’t mention that show. She was beautiful in that, by MTM she looked very haggard.

by Anonymousreply 406November 24, 2021 5:25 AM

She still looked pretty attractive through about the 4th season of MTM. She seemed to age a lot between seasons 4 and 5. Her face looked really tired and drawn by season 6, and that bird's next of a wig they had on her was not flattering.

by Anonymousreply 407November 24, 2021 5:35 AM

[quote]Deb Messing would be perfection in a remake. I love her. An underrated gem of a dramatic actress, aside from a brilliant comic actress.

Um...I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic...

Or you've forgotten to take your meds

by Anonymousreply 408November 24, 2021 5:46 AM

^ Susan Sarandon

by Anonymousreply 409November 24, 2021 6:43 AM

Gay men of a certain type (emotional tenors who love show tunes and Disney) really bond with Conrad and this film...which, is, frankly, a big budget TV movie that very wisely cast MTM as Beth. Her casting really got the film a ton of press and then because she was cast against type and did a good job, it sealed the deal.

I think Lee Remick, Ann-Margrock, Natalie Wood, Jill Clayburgh could have all played that role but only MTM would have brought all that other attention by her casting. Though to be honest, I think Remick would have been fine in the role, just a bit obvious. Ann-Margret is too sexy for the part...big tits and voluptious doesn't play well on the North Shore. Wood would have too....quirky. Clayburgh would have been ok, though maybe a bit too young and waifish for Beth.

Hutton got the career he deserved. He was good here but his problem was, he didn't really read very well on the big screen. He had a "supporting actor" level of charisma. He was nice looking but not hot enough to be sexy. He was boyish for a very long time then just old.

Redford's Oscar win for direction was ridiculous. It was the start of that annoying trend of Hollywood giving actors who were unlikely to win Oscars for their wooden acting some kudos for their wooden direction.

And, Pauline Kael was right about this movie.

by Anonymousreply 410November 24, 2021 9:17 AM

God daaamn:

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by Anonymousreply 411November 24, 2021 9:25 AM

Alcoholism, R406. Also she briefly split with Grant Tinker in 1973 before formally separating in '79 while Ordinary People was filming.

by Anonymousreply 412November 24, 2021 1:06 PM

I love when Conrad hugs Beth and she freezes and stiffens.

Can't tell if she is either disgusted or just simply cannot process raw emotion. It is a case of the cooties is latching onto her.

by Anonymousreply 413November 24, 2021 1:10 PM

If she played it as Mary Richards or Laura Petry, it would have been sheer camp---"Ohhhh Cal-vinnnn" and they would need to cast someone like Ann Morgan Guilbert or Valerie Harper as the neighbor.

by Anonymousreply 414November 24, 2021 1:11 PM

Beth never would have FROZE if Buck had hugged her R413!

by Anonymousreply 415November 24, 2021 1:19 PM


r410 = Wilma Flintstone

by Anonymousreply 416November 24, 2021 2:26 PM

Mabel King from What's Happening !! as Beth Jarrett-

Conrad give your Mama some SUGAR.

Conrad- Mama I can't breath!

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by Anonymousreply 417November 24, 2021 2:38 PM

Florence Henderson ?

by Anonymousreply 418November 24, 2021 2:46 PM

What was the deal with ARF! ARF! ARF???

Trying to off put Beth?

by Anonymousreply 419November 24, 2021 3:31 PM

Before he met MTM, Robert Redford saw her walking on the beach in Malibu. She was alone, and quiet. She differed from her Mary Richards character. She seemed somber and withdrawn. He envisioned MTM while reading the novel “Ordinary People.”

by Anonymousreply 420November 24, 2021 3:36 PM

[quote]Her casting really got the film a ton of press and then because she was cast against type

Oh really, you think she was cast against type? That’s an interesting perspective that hasn’t been discussed yet. Thanks for mentioning it!

by Anonymousreply 421November 24, 2021 4:03 PM

r419, Conrad was frustrated at Beth trying to change the topic when he brought up Buck.

But I don't get why she went out to speak to him in the first place. Most of the film she spends trying to avoid him, but here she looks at him tenderly from the door then goes out and asks him what he's doing/thinking. Was this a glimpse of how she used to be?

by Anonymousreply 422November 24, 2021 4:15 PM

R422, I think Beth was attempting to do something that was “against type” for her character. Just like MTM was cast “against type” for this movie. It’s a topic that really hasn’t been discussed yet in this thread.

by Anonymousreply 423November 24, 2021 4:32 PM

R422, I think Beth was trying to 'connect' with him. Contrary to what others seem to suggest, Beth was not a monster, she loved her son, but was incapable of 'going deep'. She had lost one son and her other son tried to kill himself, she was not equipped emotionally to deal with that. There are moments throughout the film where she attempts to 'reach out' to Conrad and then realizes that she has gotten in emotionally 'over her head'. Just because she was not capable of being there for Conrad the way he needed her to be, doesn't mean that she didn't love him. She was limited and weak, but not a monster.

by Anonymousreply 424November 24, 2021 5:05 PM

What about Shirley Jones as Beth Jarrett

by Anonymousreply 425November 24, 2021 6:26 PM

What about Dunaway as Beth?

This was the time around Mommie, no?

by Anonymousreply 426November 24, 2021 6:39 PM

Connie knows why you all never came to the hospital. You were too busy arguing about goddamn Mary Tyler Moore and… and goddamn casting against type!

by Anonymousreply 427November 24, 2021 6:49 PM

Beth and Buck were fucking. I accidentally walked in on them that one time.

by Anonymousreply 428November 24, 2021 8:20 PM

Esther Rolle as Beth?

by Anonymousreply 429November 24, 2021 11:37 PM

Maybe when Conrad was born he really hurt her oonie. That’s something a mom remembers.

by Anonymousreply 430November 25, 2021 4:00 AM

If Conrad didn’t want to resume golfing, and he wasn’t interested in staying on the swim team, why did he join Choir? It seems like in every other respect he didn’t want to be with people.

by Anonymousreply 431November 25, 2021 4:03 AM

Who names their child Conrad? That's practically a guarantee of dysfunction and years in therapy.

by Anonymousreply 432November 25, 2021 4:04 AM

An Ordinary Black People version would be interesting.

by Anonymousreply 433November 25, 2021 4:05 AM

[quote]An Ordinary Black People version would be interesting.

But since Beth doesn't get emotional, not sure how Viola could work her snot drool into a scene.

by Anonymousreply 434November 25, 2021 4:10 AM

R424 In the book, she's a monster. It is a slow reveal, but in the end, pretty much an unfeeling bitch to everyone. You don't even really get a depth of feeling from her toward Buck. More that his death was a great disturbance, and Conrad's suicide attempt, a horrible embarrassment. Beth didn't like disturbances, and she sure as hell hated embarrassment.

by Anonymousreply 435November 25, 2021 4:24 AM

Ordinary Peeples, starring Bea Arthur as Cindy Lou Peeples, a cold, icy woman whose golden boy son died in a tar pit accident.

by Anonymousreply 436November 25, 2021 4:46 AM

Here's the opening theme music to OP

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by Anonymousreply 437November 25, 2021 4:56 AM

That's not the usual Hamlish song. He was composing against type.

by Anonymousreply 438November 25, 2021 5:02 AM

R431 because he was a fucking fruit!!

by Anonymousreply 439November 25, 2021 6:21 AM

[quote]She was beautiful in that, by MTM she looked very haggard.

R406, the main thing is that Mary's woefully underweight. I cringe when I see the MTM Show today, she's a walking skeleton, and it affected her face. Most likely it was a result of having Type 1 Diabetes, diagnosed three years earlier.

Am I alone in thinking Mary was better in Dick Van Dyke than her own show? Her performances was much more that the over publicized "Oh, Rob!" line.

by Anonymousreply 440November 25, 2021 12:50 PM

I don't remember in the movie OR the book that Beth ever sat at her desk to type.

But I may have missed it.

by Anonymousreply 441November 25, 2021 5:53 PM

R435, interesting. Someone gave me the book, but I never read it. I think I will read it now. I was the poster who asked about Beth and Conrad’s relationship before Buck died. Your comment makes me wonder if Beth’s relationship with Buck was all that it was cracked up to be. Maybe she was someone of her time who just wasn’t maternal, but societal norms dictate women having a family.

by Anonymousreply 442November 25, 2021 6:36 PM

Beth always wrote her correspondence. The film established that from an early age, Beth refused to use a typewriter for obvious reasons. It was a matter of principle with her. She was always against type.

by Anonymousreply 443November 25, 2021 6:37 PM

Beth loved Buck.

He brought her so much joy like when she was laying on the ground in her tennis outfit nearly flashing him her no-no hole.

by Anonymousreply 444November 25, 2021 6:39 PM

R444, she loved him, but when things got messy she couldn’t handle it. I think the film missed the mark when they didn’t fully portray the family dynamics prior to Buck’s death.

by Anonymousreply 445November 25, 2021 7:33 PM

Beth married Calvin even though she knew he was completely wrong for her. That’s because she wanted someone who wasn’t her type. She liked going against type.

by Anonymousreply 446November 25, 2021 11:54 PM

MTM was AB negative. Even her blood type was against type.

by Anonymousreply 447November 26, 2021 12:14 AM

[quote] I think the film missed the mark when they didn’t fully portray the family dynamics prior to Buck’s death.

It’s a movie, not a miniseries. There’s not time to portray the family’s whole history. The flashbacks were sufficient to convey what the dynamics were.

by Anonymousreply 448November 26, 2021 6:05 AM

I thought the family flashbacks worked well in that regard, while the boating accident flashbacks were completely unnecessary and heavy handed.

by Anonymousreply 449November 26, 2021 6:19 AM

Would Beth have voted for Trump?


Definitely Carol Lazenby, that meddling gossip monger bitch.

by Anonymousreply 450November 26, 2021 10:59 AM

r450, maybe Dr. Berger could help you get over your obsession with Trump.

by Anonymousreply 451November 26, 2021 2:07 PM

R450 you might be surprised to learn that I’m not very enamoured of today’s GOP and I loathe Trump.

However, it’s also true I couldn’t bring myself to vote for Hillary either. I played golf on Nov 7, 2016 and didn’t vote at all.

My dream candidate would have been another run by Romney in 2016 but that wasn’t meant to be. It’s a shame because I adore Ann and think she would have made a wonderful First Lady. Also my father Howard knew Mitt’s dad George growing up in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan.

I’m actually a very well connected woman even outside Lake Forest, but don’t like to talk about that very much because I consider it a PRIVATE matter!

by Anonymousreply 452November 26, 2021 2:41 PM

[quote]She was limited and weak

R424 = Barbara Thorndyke, famous Miami author.

by Anonymousreply 453November 26, 2021 3:53 PM

I wish someone would start a separate thread about whether MTM was cast against type in "Ordinary People".

by Anonymousreply 454November 26, 2021 3:57 PM

R453- May I make a suggestion-

Barbara Thorndyke as Beth Jarrett

by Anonymousreply 455November 26, 2021 3:59 PM

[quote]Barbara Thorndyke as Beth Jarrett

Ok R455, but we'll have to film the golfing scenes at a Restricted Club

by Anonymousreply 456November 26, 2021 4:07 PM

Great idea R455

Barbara’s novel SO DARK THE WAVES ON BISCAYNE BAY could be rewritten as SO DARK THE WAVES ON LAKE MICHIGAN… and have a whole new meaning!

by Anonymousreply 457November 26, 2021 4:09 PM

Berger? That’s a Jewish name isn’t it… Calvin, could I see you in the kitchen for a minute?

by Anonymousreply 458November 26, 2021 4:13 PM

Barbara Thorndyke would continually call Conrad, Madge...

by Anonymousreply 459November 26, 2021 4:18 PM

Must EVERY interesting thread degenerate into a Golden Girls discussion?

by Anonymousreply 460November 26, 2021 4:24 PM

After 450 odd replies this thread was played out, so yes R460 it was necessary.

Datalounge threads usually become caricatures of themselves in the 400 to 600 reply range. Just like Seasons 4 to 7 of The Golden Girls… or Seasons 2 to 1000 of Will & Grace.

by Anonymousreply 461November 26, 2021 4:32 PM

Buck never would have WATCHED The Golden Girls!

by Anonymousreply 462November 26, 2021 4:35 PM

R462- That's because Buck was not a HOMOSEXUAL.

by Anonymousreply 463November 26, 2021 4:40 PM

R460- I must correct you. This thread has not degenerated into a Golden Girls discussion it has degenerated into a-


by Anonymousreply 464November 26, 2021 4:42 PM

It shows how amazing MTM’s performance was that people can see Beth as a real person, and one that people are still discussing 40 years later. No one is discussing Coal Miner’s Daughter.

by Anonymousreply 465November 26, 2021 5:15 PM

R465, that's because Beth Jarrett is a gay icon.

by Anonymousreply 466November 26, 2021 5:24 PM

That's because Sissy Spacek wasn't playing against type.

by Anonymousreply 467November 26, 2021 5:34 PM

Your mama's a dad burned songwriter.

by Anonymousreply 468November 26, 2021 5:52 PM

Wasn't Playing Against Type a TV movie with Vanessa Redgrave?

by Anonymousreply 469November 26, 2021 6:59 PM

MTM was a typographer in a past life. She was set against it in this one.

by Anonymousreply 470November 26, 2021 7:18 PM

I heard that a bunch of homosexuals have been talking about me.

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by Anonymousreply 471November 26, 2021 7:33 PM

Sorry, Babs, I knew Beth first...and that Jew who used to hang around her.

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by Anonymousreply 472November 26, 2021 7:39 PM

Barbara Stanwyck as Beth. Tab Hunter as Conrad Fred Astaire as Calvin. Ed Ames as Dr. Berger.

by Anonymousreply 473November 26, 2021 9:51 PM

Fred Astaire as Calvin??? HA HA, no. Fred MacMurray as Calvin.

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by Anonymousreply 474November 26, 2021 10:05 PM

Ed Ames? As Berger? Where in the hell do you get that?

I'd like to see Robert Ryan as Berger, that character actor with a large range and leading man good looks.

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by Anonymousreply 475November 26, 2021 10:09 PM

There is a new thread on Doing Time On Maple Drive.

Which mother would you rather have had - the one played by Bibi Besch or by Mary Tyler Moore?

by Anonymousreply 476November 26, 2021 10:51 PM

You know, a little of that goes a very long way.

by Anonymousreply 477November 29, 2021 3:54 AM

Let us never forget Beth’s mother played the first victim in EYES OF LAURA MARS:

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by Anonymousreply 478November 29, 2021 5:07 AM

She also played Kathleen Turner’s mother in law on “The Doctors” (4:50 mark)

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by Anonymousreply 479November 29, 2021 5:11 AM

I did, R479. And they launched the pregnancy storyline because Kathleen Turner couldn't keep her weight down. (The same reason she was ultimately fired.)

by Anonymousreply 480November 29, 2021 5:20 AM

One more thing - I played Anne “$cientologist” Archer’s mom in Fatal Attraction. And one more thing, I started out as a model.

More as it occurs to me…

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by Anonymousreply 481November 29, 2021 5:36 AM

Me again!

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by Anonymousreply 482November 29, 2021 5:38 AM

Meg Mundy was also Isabel Alden #1 in the "Loving" pilot. She was replaced by Augusta Dabney.

by Anonymousreply 483November 29, 2021 5:44 AM

R480 damn! People don’t realize how much progress the entertainment industry has made in that regard. How did Cybill Shepherd manage to avoid that kind of scrutiny/criticism throughout her career?

by Anonymousreply 484November 29, 2021 8:37 AM

A scene that could have brought a ray of light to "Ordinary People":

Calvin and Beth (as played by Barbara Thorndyke) sit on the sofa, enjoying their after dinner drinks and discussing Conrad:

Beth: Face it, Calvin. Conrad is limited.

Calvin: Well, I have to admit I get tired of his "poor me" attitude; his big sad racoon eyes; and his waving those razor blades around whenever he doesn't get his way. Still, we did so well with Buck - I can't help but think there must be something more there.

Beth: You know, Calvin, if you like him, I must have overlooked something in that loser. I have an idea. Why don't I invite Conrad and his date for dinner at the Mortimer Club? Ha, listen to me...as if he could find a date with his wrists always bandaged up. I'll just make a reservation for the three of us.

Calvin: That sounds like a great plan, Beth, even that Jew doctor of his would approve. Whoa, we better not invite him to the Mortimer Club, eh? What do you say we go out on the Lanai and smoke a doobie while the loser is moping around up in his room.

by Anonymousreply 485November 30, 2021 11:03 AM

[quote]Ed Ames as Dr. Berger.

Ed Ames? Then we'll have to make it a musical!

And if it's a musical, there's only one gal in town who can play Beth Jarrett...and her bright red hair and comedic genius will liven up this entire sad sack production too!

by Anonymousreply 486November 30, 2021 11:30 AM

Ed Ames also could do his tomahawk throwing act that he did on the Tonight Show.

by Anonymousreply 487November 30, 2021 12:23 PM

R485- When we discuss Barbara Thorndike in OP , we are not saying that Bonnie Bartlett would be good as Beth, we are saying that Bonnie Bartlett as Barbara Thorndike would have been good as Beth Jarrett.

by Anonymousreply 488November 30, 2021 2:50 PM

It's so DL and so GAY that no one cares that Bonnie Bartlett played Mrs. Craig on St. Elsewhere for SIX seasons but she makes ONE appearance as a SNOB/BIGOT/BITCH on The Golden Girls there are endless discussions and reverence for Barbara Thorndike ( although she's still NOT in the same league as that other broad - Helen Lawson)

by Anonymousreply 489November 30, 2021 2:57 PM

R488, when I discuss the possibility of your being neuroatypical

I'm not saying you have Asperger's

I'm saying you are annoying

by Anonymousreply 490November 30, 2021 2:58 PM

Bonnie who?

I don't know her.

by Anonymousreply 491November 30, 2021 3:00 PM

Some of you are so fucking weird.

by Anonymousreply 492November 30, 2021 3:54 PM

Shit you people really ARE limited… it’s ThorndYke with a Y… not an I.

ThorndYke, dYke, dYke!

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by Anonymousreply 493November 30, 2021 4:54 PM

What is it about this movie that it fills up DL threads so quickly when it's brought up? So many middle-aged, middle-class- raised, gay men who saw their lives in this picture post here. It seems to fit the disproved trope of dominant/cold mothers and distant fathers raising gay (or emotionally troubled) kids. The irony is that the bravery of those white, upper middle-class outsiders did more for gay rights than any other group of similar-aged kids by having the guts to come out to people like Beth J. The scene that got me was when Beth tries to relate to Conrad while he's laying outside in the cold weather. She gives us hope that there's a warm, comforting Mom under the cool personality. I remember my mother having a similar conversation with me where she really broke through and we had a truly warm mother/son moment. At the end of it, since it had gone so well, she asked me if there was anything else I wanted to talk about with her and I figured, she knows, this is my big chance, so I told her I was "bisexual" -- a lie meant to gauge her reaction. Her face fell, I watched her features lock down, and the first words out of her mouth were "Let me get a drink." I was crushed and when the movie came out I told her to go see it. "It's you." She went and saw it and was pissed. "That's not me!" But like most people on this thread, it was her and I think she knew it and, like Beth, couldn't do anything about it.

by Anonymousreply 494November 30, 2021 5:53 PM

Buck NEVER would have been bisexual!

by Anonymousreply 495November 30, 2021 6:37 PM

R233 a woman here or on some other board said they were a trying to be a teen actress and got to the last 2 as Jeannine. She did a screen test with Eric Robert’s then Redford decided to cast the other actor as Conrad, because he decided to go with the kid who looked like Mary Tyler Moore and not Donald Sutherland.

by Anonymousreply 496November 30, 2021 6:46 PM

God it would have been a laugh if Buck hadn't died but did come out.

by Anonymousreply 497November 30, 2021 6:56 PM

[quote]Buck NEVER would have been bisexual!

Buck never would have BEEN bisexual!

by Anonymousreply 498November 30, 2021 7:46 PM

[quote]God it would have been a laugh if Buck hadn't died but did come out.

Not for Buck.

by Anonymousreply 499November 30, 2021 7:47 PM

If not playing Beth Jarrett herself Barbara Thorndyke would have been BEST pals with Beth Jarrett. They would both belong to that RESTRICTED club- The Mortimer Club.

by Anonymousreply 500November 30, 2021 7:53 PM

Barbara Thorndyke I mean Bonnie Bartlett grew up in Illinois. Wow she , I mean her Barbara Thorndyke persona could have BEEN Beth Jarrett.

by Anonymousreply 501November 30, 2021 7:56 PM

Look, I've told you before,

I've never even of this "Madge" person!

Or "Bonnie" or whatever!

by Anonymousreply 502November 30, 2021 8:00 PM

The commercial for Ordinary People in 1980 would go like this-

Ordinary People starring Mary Tyler Moore, Donald Sutherland, Timothy Hutton and a special guest appearance by


Rated R. Now playing at a theater near you.

by Anonymousreply 503November 30, 2021 8:12 PM

The movie is an artistic failure because it didn't include a nude gang shower scene with a long glimpse of Lazenby's tight ass.

by Anonymousreply 504November 30, 2021 8:22 PM

What kills Beth is her Golden Child is a mama’s boy yet delicate Conrad, the one she would expect to be gay, is straight.

by Anonymousreply 505December 1, 2021 12:00 AM
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