Why do gay men love Marilyn Monroe so much?

Same reason they like Bernadette Peters.

Gay men like their women mentally ill, drugged out, insecure and talented/hot.

In these modern days and times Marilyn Monroe seems more like a drag queen than a woman. I don't know of any gay men who are obsessed with her but she still resonates with the public after all these years.

Let's have a photo. Marilyn doing one of her best drag queen looks.

Gay men love women with big tits just as much as straight men but for different reasons.

I wasn’t aware gay men have a shit about her? I never did.

R6 *gave

Marilyn isn't as revered among gays as certain other starlets. The demographic that seems most obsessed with her are boomer straight men who work in elite media ( think publications like Vanity Fair) and young women with personality disorders.

I always thought she was more popular with straight girls. Straight of all backgrounds seem to adore Marilyn and defend her. I don't know any gays who worship her.

Women will claim Marilyn as "feminist", "plus-size", "extremely talented but burdened by her beauty" and etc. She's a vessel for whatever they want her to be.

She was beautiful, had a modicum of talent, fucked everyone in sight, and died tragically young. What's not to love?

We don't. That's a frau delusion. Only old straight geezers like Graydon Carter do.

R8 and R9, you must be kidding. I've lost count of the homes of gays I've been in that had a poster or photo of Marilyn hanging on the walls.

Anyone who washes down pills with champagne gets my vote.

Straight women like Madonna, Megan Fox, Christina Aguilera and Kim K tried to channel Marilyn Monroe. It's funny to think if Monroe had lived to old age, she may have ended up like Liz Taylor or Farrah Fawcett, as a former beauty but no longer as influential. Her early death cemented her as an icon.

Marilyn was a supporter of gay rights.

“I was remembering Monty Clift. People who aren’t fit to open the door for him sneer at his homosexuality. What do they know about it? Labels–people love putting labels on each other. Then they feel safe. People tried to make me into a lesbian. I laughed. No sex is wrong if there’s love in it.”

I like her because I like the idea of being a beautiful blonde creature that men go gaga for. It’s definitely an appealing archetype.

R13 Thank you. I was sitting here with my eyebrow raised like…are you kidding me? There are many gay stereotypes. Many of them are untrue. This is not one of them.

If she had lived, I'd hope she would be more like Mamie Van Doren, married to a much younger man who adores her, than poor Mae West in Sextette.

[quote]I've lost count of the homes of gays I've been in that had a poster or photo of Marilyn hanging on the walls.

I do not know one gay man under 40 that gives a damn about MM. This must be an elderghey thing.

Are you kidding? Gays love a vulnerable mess.

Marilyn is not and never was a gay icon.

Bette, Joan, Judy, among others but not Marilyn.

If Madonna bites your style, there's a more than good chance that you're a gay icon.

Some gay men did adore her like Andy Warhol. I think she's more a beauty/fashion icon and sex symbol than gay icon. Gay female icons are not necessarily known for foremost for their beauty. Though they can be attractive. There's other factors at play.

[Quote] The most widely recognized gay icons are often celebrities who garnered large LGBT fanbases, such as Judy Garland, Diana Ross, Madonna, Janet Jackson, Cher, and Lady Gaga. However, the term is also applied to politicians, authors, and other historical figures deemed relatable to LGBT causes.

Even though gays do love female singers and celebrities and drag queens mimic them. I think the gay icon is too easily thrown around.

C'mon now.

R25 Yes! The Gay Icon Crown IS thrown around too easily. You have to earn it to deserve it!!

[quote]I was remembering Monty Clift.

He died 4 years AFTER her.

Brando, Hudson and Dean get mentioned a lot as male gay icons but Montgomery Clift and Ramon Novarro not as much.

We do? That's more of a 20-something damaged frau that peaked in high school thing.

I love the delusional ageism thing some of you are trying to do. But yes: the gays love Marilyn. You probably know at least three who like her. She's been dead almost sixty years so she isn't the buzziest topic, but ask a group of gay men about her and watch their eyes light up. At a minimum they saw that bland movie about her starring Michelle Williams.

Marilyn has been done on Snatch Game ferchirissake.

Gay men don't. Bi men who call themselves "gay" are the ones who worship females, celebrity or otherwise.

[Quote] Bi men who call themselves "gay" are the ones who worship females, celebrity or otherwise.

Did you type that with a straight face?

R34 another retarded cunt who thinks "gay men" consider females to be "gay icons" and hot, and worships them.

She was a gay man at heart. Like me, she was beautiful, shy, and talented. Also, I went to a bar in Ibiza 25 years ago named “Monroe’s” owned by two lesbians. The walls were adorned with Marilyn memorabilia. (So not only gay men adored her, but dykes too)

They do? I feel like straight fraus love her more than any other group. I see them posting all these (usually fake) quotes of Marilyn, naming their dogs after her and dressing up like her for Halloween.

R36 "gay man" at heart. What are you, a borderline transman? Because you type like one.

[quote] Straight of all backgrounds seem to adore Marilyn and defend her

Britney Spears is really the Marilyn of our time. Straight women LOVE her victim status and Baby Bop brainlessness. They love and listen to this tragic woman despite her lack of any talent or personality which is actually very mysognistic on their part if you think about it. The difference between Marilyn and her is that Marilyn's persona was an act. Britney's is not.

As a rule, most gay men prefer their female role models to be less victimized by the world. Marilyn was too much of a victim. Unlike Bette or Joan or Liz. They survived the worst and came out on top, or at least still swinging.

Gay men also love and want to take care of Britney.

R39 I would disagree with you about Britney. There's really only ONE person who would be the Marilyn of our time. It's kind of obvious. She even unironically dressed as her once.

I'll make a poll in a separate thread...

Lohan.

Britanny Murphy was never big enough to be a Marilyn.

I love Marilyn but I do feel like a minority amongst gays.

She’s very much idolized by women. Her and Betty Boop.

And there’s definitely been a revival of her from all the fake Marilyn quote memes about body positivity and shit she never said.

R42, are you arguing Madonna? I can't agree with that. Madonna herself knows that she is nothing like Marilyn (or she did at some point). Madonna (at least through the late 00s) was far more resilient, sane, ambitious and rutheless than Marilyn ever was.

Lohan's Playboy spread was a Marilyn take off.

MY bad, completely, missed the Lohan reference. But I don't even think Lohan is a great Lohan reference. People don't give a shit about her whereas people actually love Marilyn. Marilyn is loved because of her innocent tragic victim status. Same as Britney. Lohan is considered an example of "what not to do".

That should say "I don't even think Lohan is a great Marilyn reference"

People absolutely do care about Lohan. She's a tabloid dream.

I don't very much--I've always thought she was appallingly synthetic as an icon.

She is genuinely fine in two movies: "Niagara" (the only time where she was a real bitch in her movies, and where she's absolutely great) and "How to Marry a Millionaire" (where she's the funniest one in the whole movie and shows absolutely expert timing). Otherwise I rarely enjoy her performances--they're usually too mannered.

Britney as innocent victom is what I think is known at reconning. She was painted as a danger to herself and others back in the 2000s (e.g. driving with the baby on her lap. Pussy shows etc.)

R51, Marilyn was amazing in Niagara without the whole "Marilyn" persona and voice.

You didn't enjoy her in "Gentleman Prefer Blondes"? How queer.

Marilyn also stole her scene in "All About Eve."

What do the gays think of Audrey Hepburn?

We gravitate toward the vulnerable and broken.

These are the Old Hollywood actresses gay men gravitate towards (correct me if I’m wrong): Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, Judy Garland, Katharine Hepburn, Vivien Leigh

Often, I'm more interested in the other stars she is in the frame with: Stanwyck, Clift, Sanders, Russell.

Straight men are more into her than the gays, in my experience.

R57 - “We gravitate toward the vulnerable and broken.”

All gay men ARE vulnerable and broken.

R58 I forgot Elizabeth Taylor and Barbara Stanwyck

Marilyn Monroe is definitely a straight people thing. I think every girl/woman has a Marilyn Monroe phase.

Why isn’t Rita Hayworth worshipped like Marilyn Monroe?

Britney is an innocent victim but she’s not glamorous or sexy.

Britney was a country bumpkin who was trained to talk and act a certain way. Her baby doll valley girl voice is fake too. Her real voice is a deep southern drawl. Her real hair color is brown not platinum blonde. She was sold on her sex appeal and childlike innocence. So there's similarities to MM. The difference is Britney's image was manufactured by corporations. Marilyn's image was a self-creation. Marilyn worked hard on her own for success. Britney was a child performer who had a family that invested in her success. So both had a similar life of being sexually abused, exploited, mental illness and drug addiction. But Marilyn was always more independent while Britney never was.

If Marilyn had someone in her life who could put her under a Britney-style conservatorship, she wouldn't have had so much independence either. She was a drug addicted mess the last five years of her life. All she had, at most, were a couple of useless husbands who grew tired of her bullshit and dumped her.

Because she was a very successful cum dump

[quote]No sex is wrong if there’s love in it.

What about the sex George Atkinson forced on her when she was a child? Maybe this is what she had to tell herself after years of being used and abused, poor thing.

By remembering Monty, she probably meant remembering working with him on The Misfits / hanging out around that time, and how people would treat him. I don't know if they stayed close after filming.

Do we?

I believe that when she was alive, MM was mostly idolized by young men. She was a straight men's thing. I don't think women were even allowed to idolize her because she was too slutty.

R69 Marilyn described Monty as “the only person I know who's in worse shape than I am”.

Straight boys wanted to bang her they did not idolize her. They idolized John Wayne, Elvis or Sal Mineo.

R68 Equating child molestation with gay sex is a choice..

R70 Women historically love Marilyn Monroe because she's so obviously vulnerable. The fascinating thing is that none of Marilyn's female co-stars around her age disliked her. Jane Russell and Betty Grable loved her. Even uber cunt Betty Bacall didn't have many bad things to say, just that the way Marilyn didn't make direct eye contact annoyed her.

I know plenty of gay Marilyn fans, but they skew older.

R72 Sal Mineo?

Marilyn appeared to have a lot of mental disorders like anxiety, depression, maybe borderline or bipolar and she was fucked up. She was reportedly always very nice to everyone. So that must have helped getting her sympathy.

You're wrong.

Monroe wasnt just a pretty girl that boys wanted to bang, she was a phenomenon.

It amazes me how captivating she was for young men.

Marilyn seems to be popular with Black gays. Not sure about White gays.

I think straight men saw her as this sex goddess and fantasized about her. But women and gay man would be more likely to idolize her in that they would be interested in her life and want to be like her. Straight men idolize masculine figures.

Maybe its indeed a generational thing,but every gay man I knew in my youth adored Marilyn. For the record,the most amazing Marilyn impersonator I ever saw was Jimmy James . You can see clips of him on youtube,but honestly his live shows just couldnt capture how eerily perfect he was doing Marilyn.

R77 yeah, for straight and bisexual men, NOT gay men! You cunts can call them "gay men" as much as you like, but they are bisexual. Actual Gay men don't give a fuck about worshiping females in any way!

The only true female icons for gay men worth their salt are Norma Shearer and Kay Francis. The rest are pretenders.

Marilyn’s appeal to men is why all the groups cited in this thread are fascinated by her so many years later.

She appeals to straight men for the same reasons she did in her life time - she sold herself as a man’s fantasy come to life. Not only does that captivate straight men, it appeals to them that she shaped her life and persona around them; she makes them feel like kings.

She appeals to straight women and gay men because of the fantasy of what it would be like to captivate men like Marilyn did. What would it feel like for every man to want you? The power and thrill of that, and the fear and vulnerability of that.

Marilyn certainly appeals to straight men in her photos, but do you think she still appeals to them in her films? Her fame baby voice may be a turn off to them.

fake baby voice*

[quote] yeah, for straight and bisexual men, NOT gay men! You cunts can call them "gay men" as much as you like, but they are bisexual. Actual Gay men don't give a fuck about worshiping females in any way!

There's many types of gay men and subcultures. Marlon Brando, Rock Hudson, James Dean and Monty Clift were gay icons because they were hot and gay. But many gay men empathize with women and are fascinated by them. A lot of female gay icons aren't really beautiful. But they have other qualities to them that gay men can identify with.

Straight men worship the female body. They don't worship female talent, individuality or resilience. They don't stop to think about Pamela Anderson or Megan Fox's personal lives or interests and hobbies, they just focus on their tits and ass. Straight men worship manly men whether it's Sean Connery or The Rock. They emulate who they see as alpha male.

Dear, idolize is not about imitation or taking someone as an example, its a fascination.

Norman Mailer wrote a whole book about Monroe. He was one of those men that were fascinated with her.

Straight men LOVE women who talk in baby voice. It makes their dicks go right up.

R83 LOL. R83 = Marilyn typing from the spirit world as a ghost, where she is also whoring herself.

This same thread could be made about Princess Diana. The media loves tragic blonde women.

Some individual straight men may have idolized her. But in general, straight men are not that interested in female celebrity lives to the point of idolization. Marilyn was a big sex symbol and straight men loved her mix of sexual availability and nonthreatening childlike nature but they were not interested in Norma Jean Baker or whatever was under the surface. She was a big star because straight men found her hot and straight women were the ones very interested and fascinated by her. Straight men in the media kept her image alive because she fit their standard of what an ideal woman should be. There was a lot of misogynistic undertones to why straight men liked her so much. Marilyn fans who appreciate everything about her tend to be women and gays.

I don't know any gay men obsessed with Monroe. They're more likely to be fascinated by Streisand or Jessica Lange.

Most old fat gays love Marilyn. We young nubile gaylings not so much.

Rather Marilyn than Ariana Grande.

She was a caricature of femininity. Campy, reminiscent of drag queens. Like Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, Marlene Dietrich, Judy Garland. Gays are fond of those types.

The two owners of rather sizeable collections of Marilyn memorabilia are both gay. One lives in Los Angeles and the other is this guy.

It's interesting to me that most admirers of Brando, Bowie, Dean, Freddie, Elton and George Michael are straight men and straight women. Men who actually were gay and bisexual. Brando, Dean and GM were bigger sluts than Monroe and I'd rather be them because they in their prime were peak male specimens.

r70: " I don't think women were even allowed to idolize her because she was too slutty." Movie magazines were overwhelmingly bought by women, and you'd be surprised how few covers featured Marilyn. They were mostly Liz, Janet Leigh, June Allyson and Debbie Reynolds.

The nastiness that's being directed at Marilyn in some of these posts makes me feel alienated from my own gay culture. Are the people talking about her this way even gay?

[quote] he nastiness that's being directed at Marilyn in some of these posts makes me feel alienated from my own gay culture.

Well, she WAS very self absorbed and narcissistic. A mental train wreck, not unlike Judy Garland. They were both Geminis; I don't know if that has anything to do with (Geminis are said to be unstable people). And an absolute horror to work with. A lot of people disliked her. A lot of people felt sorry for her. But they all knew she was incredibly unhappy, never satisfied with anything, unable to have a healthy relationship with a man. I think she fascinates because here she was, a woman who had youth, beauty, fame, money and a career as a movie star and yet she was miserable much of the time. She had all that, but was still so unhappy. A tragic Hollywood figure.

She has an "alone in a crowd" aura that resonates with me, but that's about it.

[quote](Geminis are said to be unstable people). And an absolute horror to work with

I feel attacked!

please never mention Britney Spears and Marilyn in the same sentence. One is retarded and Marilyn is eternally gorgeous.

[quote]Gay men like their women mentally ill, drugged out, insecure and talented/hot.

I don't take drugs.

I'm into has-beens and failed glamour. Marilyn didn't live long enough to become a has-been, and her glamour never failed. But, I love her image and the character of Marilyn Monroe. There's never been another movie star with the same combination of built-in beauty and sex appeal as her. She lived her life like a Candle In The Wind.

Why do gays love pretty, talentless pop stars op? Bad taste.

[R95] You are spot on. Many gay men are drawn to the exaggerated femininity of Marilyn. She looked. talked, and acted like a man would in drag. When she sang "Happy Birthday" to JFK for his 45th birthday celebration at Madison Square Garden on May 19, 1962, it was a classic over the top performance.

Honestly one thing that did it for me was her genuinely kind nature and wit. She wasn't a dumb blonde. She knew enough to also stand up against segregation (she defended Sammy Davis Jr, Ella Fitzgerald and Dorothy Dandridge from racism) and I do think she aligned with left wing politics. She was born in poverty and was mistreated her life by the system. Many Hollywood people were into left wing politics. Marilyn wasn't dumb and was well read and open minded.

The contradictory nature of her on screen and off screen personality makes her interesting. She took old stereotypes and imitated older stars like Jean Harlow and Betty Grable but made her own unique persona. She was multifaceted.

[quote] Marilyn wasn't dumb and was well read and open minded.

She wasn't well read. I don't think any of her biographers, and there have been many, have stated that. She wanted people to THINK she was a reader, though. There were a lot of publicity pictures of her reading a book. I remember one where she's in a children's playground, wearing a bathing suit (?), seated on a teeter-totter with a book in her lap. The photo screamed: "the blonde sex goddess, looking so childlike and vulnerable....and she's READING A BOOK!!!" Anyway, Marilyn Monroe was not into reading; she liked talking on the phone, listening to phonograph records (mostly she listened to Sinatra) and going to parties.

Here's something Robert MItchum said about her: "She wasn't dumb. She was uneducated."

I wonder if she lived would she have worked with John Waters? I could see her in Polyester, Hairspray and Cry-Baby.

Because she was one of the great film stars of all time. She was magnetic in front of a camera.

Olivier was driven mad by her during “the Prince and the Showgirl” but when he’d watch the dailies at the end of the day, he remarked that she was magic.

Clearly you have seen her films. You cannot take your eyes off of her no matter who she’s with-

I thought it was "quirky girls" who loved her. None of the other gay guys I know don't give a shit about her.

* give a shit about her rather

I have heard Marilyn was homophobic. Anyone know if that's true?

[quote] I have heard Marilyn was homophobic. Anyone know if that's true?

There was a biography of her by Anthony Summers,. a tabloid reporter, that said she was. It said her psychiatrist, Ralph Greenson, said that. Was it true? Who knows? She was friends with Montgomery Clift and he was gay as a goose. But I never heard of her being particularly friendly towards gay people.

R115 yeah Montgomery was about the only gay friend of hers I can think of...not sure if she had any others

She died in1962. How "gay friendly" does anyone honestly expect her (or anyone) to have been in the 1950s?

R117 Elizabeth taylor was always gay friendly

Marilyn was very good friends with Shelley Winters who was very gay friendly.

[quote]There was a biography of her by Anthony Summers,. a tabloid reporter, that said she was. It said her psychiatrist, Ralph Greenson, said that. Was it true? Who knows? She was friends with Montgomery Clift and he was gay as a goose. But I never heard of her being particularly friendly towards gay people.

There’s recordings of her comments from her psychiatrist sessions - I remember hearing them. Maybe you can find them on YouTube.

This is one more example of why dumb gays need to quit worshiping straight female celebs. Most of them talk shit about you behind your back, but will say all the right things in public for your money. Try actually giving your support to openly gay male celebs.

The proof is in her writing, DL.

She hated the fags long before Princess Lee did.

I doubt Marilyn hated gay men. Besides Montgomery Clift, she was friends with openly gay Truman Capote when she lived in New York. They hung out, had drinks together, and commiserated on life's difficulties. He wrote a kind essay about their friendship (see link).

Marilyn was Capote's first choice to play Holly Golightly in Breakfast At Tiffany's. Audrey was too European and posh to play Holly (AKA Lula Mae Barnes), a naive girl from rural Texas.

From TheVintageNews.com::

[italic]Although the screenwriter, George Axelrod at first tailored the screenplay for Monroe, there were ongoing speculations that Holly Golightly was, in fact, a call girl. The speculations caused controversy despite Truman’s remarks that the character was not a prostitute but what he referred to as an “American geisha.” Monroe was eventually advised by actor and director, Lee Strasberg, that playing a prostitute-like character would not serve her image well, and she turned down the offer. Instead, she accepted to play in The Misfits. When Hepburn was cast next instead of Monroe, Capote had remarked, “Paramount double-crossed me in every way and cast Audrey.”[/italic]

Marlon Brando was bi and Montgomery Clift and Truman Capote were gay. So I don't think she hated gays. Wasn't MM bisexual?

Simon Doonan explains why she's a gay icon:

R123: This blonde preferred (gentle)men. She's only been linked with Joan Crawford. The story goes that Marilyn had sex with Joan once, when Marilyn was still struggling in Hollywood. Joan had offered to help Marilyn assemble a better wardrobe befitting an actress, using Joan's castoffs. She invited Marilyn to her home. Some biographers wrote that during her starlet days, as a thank you, Marilyn had sex with people who helped her, since at the time she neither had money nor connections to give in return. Supposedly, Joan wanted a repeat encounter and Marilyn refused, so Joan became vindictive and used the press to criticize Marilyn after she found fame. Marilyn never used the media to publicly trash others as a form of retaliation.

R109 = Jack Paar (Let's see if you get that reference.)

[quote]She wasn't well read. I don't think any of her biographers, and there have been many, have stated that. She wanted people to THINK she was a reader, though.

You don't have to like her, but you're promotoing a tabloid narrative based on assumptions and hearsay. You should write for the Daily Mail.

I've read plenty of MM biographies. She was considered well read by many biographers, especially the ones who did the research, who had access to her personal belongings and letters, and who interviewed her friends and co-workers. The people responsible for organizing and cataloging her possessions, that were sold in several auctions, commented on her book collection. They said many of these books contain her handwritten notes on the page margins (annotations, marginalia). She wasn't faking her interest in literature, poetry, philosophy, etc.

On the set of All About Eve, she was caught reading The Autobiography Of Lincoln Steffens and was warned not to let studio executives see her reading 'radical' books. She ignored the warning. She was left-leaning in her politics and, with her humble background, her sympathies always lay with the poor and working class.

She never finished high school and regretted her lack of an education. She was on a quest for self-improvement and read on her own time to try to make up for it. In 1952, before she became an international star, she took an evening course at UCLA called "Backgrounds in Literature".

After she moved to New York, she socialized with several writers there:Truman Capote, Carson McCullers, Karen Blixen, Edith Sitwell, and Norman Rosten. Once again, she wanted self-improvement and sought the company of people she could learn from: intellectuals and creative types. I can't imagine dumb trailer trash like Anna Nicole Smith trying to expand her mind like Marilyn did.

In 1955, Marilyn traveled to Bement, Illinois to help celebrate the small town's centennial. It was a location that Abraham Lincoln, her hero, had visited. While there, she also judged an Abe Lincoln beard growing contest. Some photos of this trip show her prominently holding a book titled "Lincoln: A Picture Story Of His Life". She was in on the joke. She was shrewd about her dumb blonde persona.

[quote] The nastiness that's being directed at Marilyn in some of these posts makes me feel alienated from my own gay culture. Are the people talking about her this way even gay?

Marilyn was never a gay icon.

I always regarded her as a frau thing.

[quote] Here's something Robert MItchum said about her: "She wasn't dumb. She was uneducated."

Mitchum didn't say that, R109. Joshua Logan, her director in Bus Stop, said this about her:

"I suddenly realized that she was a wonderful girl, great, imaginative, funny. She was a comedienne. She was any kind of serious actress that you wanted her to be. And she was not at all dumb. She was brilliant. She was just uneducated."

Mitchum, who knew her before she was famous, said: "She thought that the whole lark of being a sex goddess or a glamour queen was just that. You know, she would play it if that's what they wanted. And, as a matter of fact, she burlesqued it really because she thought the whole thing was very very funny."

Both quotes can be found in the documentary "Marilyn Monroe: Beyond The Legend' on YouTube.

do we tho

A lot of us wished we could have gotten some of the cock she had. She was also a wonderful actress, very beautiful, really good at comedy and also incredibly vulnerable and sweet on screen.

She struck me as kind of bitter when I learned how she felt about Mansfield and Taylor.

Her persona is very drag queen-ish too. She's almost parodying femininity to a degree.

[quote] There’s recordings of her comments from her psychiatrist sessions - I remember hearing them. Maybe you can find them on YouTube.

I never heard anywhere that anybody could listen to Marilyn Monroe's psychiatric sessions, on YouTube or anywhere else. There was a guy named John Miner, who claimed to have listened to tapes of her psychiatric sessions and took "extensive notes", but he was a liar. There's never been any proof that such tapes existed and why would her psychiatrist let him listen to them anyway? By the way, the version of MM depicted from the "notes' Miner supposedly took is hilarious. She sounds like a middle aged man's idea of what Marilyn Monroe would sound like; totally obsessed with sex and totally brainless.

Marilyn became quite close to her masseur, Ralph Roberts, who was gay, beginning in early 1960. He wrote a manuscript that wasn't considered sensational enough by regular publishers, but it seems to finally have been printed.

It seems from responses on this thread. It's less that MM wasn't iconic to gays. It's that she is more popular with straight women and desired by straight men (who ironically prioritize her image over her depth and personal struggles) and they control the narrative around her. It seems gays liked her for her journey, tragedy and her surprising amount of intellect and resilience. Straights just like her because she was hot.

Jeff Lewis and almost drag queen Mariah each named a child Monroe.

She was somewhat ridiculous, but unlike Mansfield I don't think she was fully in control of the joke.

She was more Tammy Fay Bakker than RuPaul.

R137 how was Mansfield more in control? Just wondering

Mansfield seemed more aware that she was playing a role, Monroe seemed to take herself more seriously.

Marilyn saw 'Will Success Spoil Rock Hunter?' and hated it. But I think Mansfield is better in it than Monroe was in anything. She's actually playing a self-aware parody of a '50s dumb blonde, unlike Monroe who was just playing a dumb blonde onscreen and had more delusions about her talent offscreen.

That’s me ^

R123 Well, yes sort of.

I had her, but she was drunk at the time.

Considering she’s really the only Golden Age star remembered in the real world, she isn’t that much discussed on here

Its a gross exageration to call her a gay icon.

Gay icon is used too liberally now. Gays have different tastes and can like individual artists who aren't traditionally associate with gay culture. I think aging Marilyn could have potentially become a gay icon if she did campy and kitschy late 60s and 70s roles and maybe move more into self-parody. Make disco records and hang out at gay bars. She died a few years before the Sexual Revolution hit and it would have been interesting seeing her tackle that.

Literally every female singer is considered a gay icon now.

No Old Hollywood actress is LESS of a gay icon than MM.

I see a similar thing from R139 is Garbo and Dietrich.

Both were hopelessly melodramatic. But Dietrich seemed to be more 'in' on the what she was playing. Garbo might've been a slightly better actor (I wonder say that about Monroe over Mansfield) but Dietrich is far, far more interesting to watch onscreen. Which when you're as supposed to be a screen goddess as much an a character matters.

R19: Should would not have done anything like Van Doren. She wanted to be taken seriously and aimed high with her affairs. The one thing I could imagine that would be a little counter to that would be the real possibility that she might have gone back to DiMaggio in her later age. He really cared about her and once she was in hagsploitation territory and he had his Mr. Coffee money, that would have looked good to her.

MM was quite a snob.

If her finances had taken a downturn in her later years I can imagine her becoming quite bitter as she was forced to take lesser jobs.

Jane Russell was actually already embracing a move to character roles while MM was still alive and didn't seem resentful about it at all.

[quote] "I wasn’t aware gay men have a shit about her? I never did."

I like Marilyn Monroe about as much as I like other actors and actresses from the period, but I hold no special place for her. My favorite Marilyn Monroe film is "Niagara".

#139, Mansfield lost contact with reality, and thought she was in a sex kitten movie 24/7. She never developed as an actress and ended up stripping.

No, MM was going to be the first actress to go nude in a film -- BEFORE Mansfield -- in Something's Gotta Give, but it didn't happen only because she died.

However, the nude scene remains.

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A lot of straight women love Marilyn. They love her style, they love her persona, (a friend called her "the quintessential feminine"), and they identify with all the drama in her personal life.

Especially when they're dealing with a breakup or feeling unappreciated by their man, or feel like they're being used and abused by everything in the world. Dont bring Marilyn up to a straight woman, when she's feeling maudlin or self-pitying.

I never heard anywhere that Marilyn Monroe was a "gay icon." I don't think she is.

Madonna called Marilyn Monroe a gay icon before.

[quote] Madonna called Marilyn Monroe a gay icon before.

Who cares what Madonna says? She's crazy.

A lot of Madonna’s act gay from borrowing/parody/homage to others just like drag queens.

MM took herself to seriously and wasn’t really ‘out there’ enough to be a gay icon.

MM’s like Shitney Spears in that her sexuality was always meant to titillate straight men while not turn off straight women.

Madonn’s sexuality was all about presenting herself as in control.

Easy to see what gay men prefer.

No gay men like MM. We like Betty, Joan, Liz, pretty much any classic actress who ISN’T MM or AH.

MM and AH are for the fraus.

R159 bette and joan are too ugly to compare to the beautiful liz

R158 britney is too ugly to compare to the beautiful marilyn

Who cares if Madonna presents her sexuality in control? She's straight and straight men love whores. Why should gay men give a shit? Also, most of Britney's remaining fans are gay men now.

I always assumed Madonna was popular with the gay crowd because she made dance music, her music videos could be campy, spoke up to support gay rights in the 80s, gave platform to her gay dancers, featured tons of attractive men in her videos and introduced Vogueing to the mainstream. Britney did the similar thing: dance music, campy and colorful persona, obviously gay dancers and hot guys in her videos.

[quote]No gay men like MM.

Only those without taste.

R4: You do know that's a woman who makes a living as a Marilyn impersonator, right?

[quote]As a rule, most gay men prefer their female role models to be less victimized by the world. Marilyn was too much of a victim. Unlike Bette or Joan or Liz. They survived the worst and came out on top, or at least still swinging.

This "rule" doesn't explain why Judy Garland is a big gay icon.

I wouldn't say I love her, but I have an interest in her. For me, it's an underdog thing. After establishing the image that made her famous, she tried to branch out, with limited success and often with ridicule. In part, that was her own doing because she pretty much created her image in a deliberate and calculated manner, and when she wanted to progress and gain more respect as an actor, it backfired on her. We only know what we see and read about her, of course, but apparently she was very insecure about her abilities and relied on acting coaches and others to tell her what to do and how to do it. I think that if she had had the emotional wherewithal to follow her own instincts, she might have fared better, but we will never know.

I actually like her best in some of her earlier movies before the star machine took over and she got (more) screwed up. I think her performance in Clash by Night, for instance, is very good and feisty, even though the script has her capitulate to her man in the end, but such were the times.

I find her pretty relatable. Just like I find Monty Clift, James Dean, Judy Garfield and Dorothy Dandridge relatable. They were messed up and fucked up their lives but that vulnerability is so human. I don't really find invincible seeming people interesting usually they are just narcissistic or sociopathic and those people are boring. Hence why I can't stand Madonna (I like her older music but I don't care for personally at all).

[quote] She's straight and straight men love whores.

She's bi. She had a high profile lesbian relationship with someone named Ingrid, can't remember her last name. She's a bi-sexual slut.

To say that she was damaged is understatement, but added to that she seemed to attract people who exactly how to exploit her, starting with the Strasbergs.

I know people get all moony over her marriage to diMaggio, but the was a cold-blooded creep. Fuck the 'rose every day' at her grave. bullshit. He snapped her around.

SLAPPED her around., sorry.

[quote]He slapped her around.

Proof?

For r170: The scene they went to witness would produce one of the most famous screen images in history -- Marilyn Monroe, in simple summer white, standing on a subway grating, cooling herself with the wind from a train below. But what sent Joe DiMaggio into a fury was the scene around the scene. Fans were yelling and shoving at police barricades as the train (actually a wind machine manned beneath the street by the special effects crew) blew Marilyn's skirt around her ears. Each time it blew, the crowd would yell, "Higher!" "More!" Her legs were bare from her high heels to her thin white panties. Photographers were stretched out on the pavement, with their lenses pointed up at his wife's crotch, the glare of their flashbulbs clearly outlining the shadow of her pubic hair. "What the hell is going on here?" Joe growled. The director, Billy Wilder, would recall "the look of death" on DiMaggio's face. Joe turned and bulled his way through the crowd -- on his way back to the bar -- with the delighted Winchell trotting at his heels. That night, there was a famous fight in Marilyn and Joe's suite on the eleventh floor of the St. Regis. It was famous because none of the guests on that floor could sleep. And famous because Natasha Lytess was so alarmed by Marilyn's cries that she went next door to intervene. (Joe answered the door, and told her to get lost.) It was famous because the following morning Marilyn told her hairdresser and wardrobe mistress that she had screamed for them in the night. ("Her husband got very, very mad with her, and he beat her up a little bit," said the hairdresser, Gladys Whitten. "It was on her shoulders, but we covered it up, you know.") And famous because Milton Greene's wife, Amy, came to visit at the suite the following day (to try on Marilyn's mink), and was appalled to see bruises all over her friend's back. And that fight would stay famous -- as the end of Joe and Marilyn's famous marriage. Years later, Marilyn would tell another hairdresser, Sidney Guilaroff, that she'd warned Joe clearly the first time he beat her up. "Don't ever do that again. I was abused as a child, and I'm not going to stand for it." But, as Guilaroff would write in his memoir"Nevertheless, after watching her film a sexy scene for Seven Year Itch, Marilyn said, 'Joe slapped me around the hotel room until I screamed, "That's it!" You know, Sidney, the first time a man beats you up, it makes you angry. When it happens a second time you have to be crazy to stay. So I left him.' "

Whatever else can be said about Joe DiMaggio he was the only man in Marilyn Monroe's life who was ALWAYS there for her. When she was locked up in a mental hospital he was the one who got her out. She'd asked Lee Strasberg for help in getting out of there but he did nothing. DiMaggio was the only person in her life she could always turn to. And he was probably the only person in her life who never tried to exploit his relationship with her for money. He never did any interview or memoir or book detailing his life with her. That was indeed commendable.

Amazing how no one was smart enough to take photographs of Monroe's injuries for the record. Just there recollections.

I wish I could find the article that was published in a fan magazine which disproves the oft told tale of Joe beating Marilyn at the Regis. It reported of Marilyn AND Joe showing up to Philipe Halsman's studio just hours after the filming of that scene, where he photographed Marilyn in a spaghetti strapped dress. Accompanying the article were several photos of Monroe from front and back with no bruises, red marks or physical damage. The photo at the link was from that sitting. Could someone so severely beaten, repeatedly leap in the air?

Also, Amy Greene told a who lot of lies about Monroe, including the oft repeated numerous abortions which MM's gynecologist. publicly stated were false.

Anything you hear avout MM chances are there's someone who will say the opposite. In one bio of her it was said that she had as many as 12 abortions. In another bio it said she never even had one.

It was also said that the "peculiar construction" of MM's vagina caused her to have excruciating menstrual periods. Who knows if there any truth to that.

It was also said that MM claimed to have had a child while a teenager that she gave up for adoption. If indeed she told people that it was a lie. There is no evidence anywhere to confirm that she ever had a baby at any time in her life.

I think that she would have made a better Gloria Wandrous than Liz Taylor in BUtterfield 8.

I've never much cared for Monroe. Over the decades the interest in her has notably decreased.

Younger generations get to determine who the new 'icons' are and that changes as the decades roll by.

In 100 years I doubt anybody will have any interest in any movie stars from today or the past. Some of the films sure, but not the actors.

[quote]This "rule" doesn't explain why Judy Garland is a big gay icon.

Judy staged multiple comebacks. It could be argued she does fit the mold of a woman pushed around but who ultimately kept trucking, not as long as Bette Davis or Cher, perhaps but she did kinda keep on truckin' through all her struggles.

Not the case with Marilyn.

What's strange to me is that Marilyn is still well-known despite being so damn *dated*.

Mansfield at least seemed to be in mocking the '50s stereotype, Monroe was it in all seriousness.

There were plenty of more modern stars from the Golden Age but Marilyn sticks around despite being so inextricably tied up with the '50s.

Even just a few years after she died she would've seemed like a ridiculous caricature.

She was hypersexualised, abused a lot of drugs, and was so consumed by emotional drama she offed herself.

Marilyn has outlasted other old Hollywood stars in terms of popularity for primarily two reasons: she was a tragic beautiful blonde woman, and her Happy Birthday performance to President Kennedy. Younger people today know who she is and recognize her, but most don’t even know that she was an actress.

Lana Turner always had more of a gay following

I took a class about the history of film this last semester (I graduated from college this Winter). For the 1950’s, my professor screened Gentlemen Prefer Blondes that week. He also played a scene of James Dean in East of Eden during class.

Marilyn didn't really have any struggle in her.

in her LIFE

DiMaggio's son, Joe jr. had happier times and memories of his stepmother Marilyn than his cold and distant father.

R166 who is Judy Garfield?

R177, Marilyn was never away for long throughout her career so she did keep trucking. There never were long periods of time between films. And she was only 36 when she died so she never had the chance to have a comeback in her "later years." So I disagree with your comments...

She died in 1962. She wasn't a has-been. The big shifts in fashion and attitudes seemed to have started around 1965-67. It's difficult to tell if she could have made that transition. I do think she would have embraced the counterculture and maybe find more joy in indie or arthouse films as she aged out of Hollywood.

Well, this gay obviously loves Marilyn (this thread needed some pics).

"I do think she would have embraced the counterculture..."

I think so too, and I think she would have made friends with hippies and flower children, who shared drugs that were far more interesting than anything her psychiatrists could give her! Frankly, I think that she might have run into serious trouble later in the 1960s, not just the drugs, but the idea of being a free spirit and chucking the rat race would have meant career trouble. She also might have ended up collecting and supporting lost souls and stray teens, who'd have made her feel loved and accepted, and who drained her bank account.

If she'd been in any shape to work after the sixties ended, or even alive, she might have done some very interesting work in the gritty dramas of the 1970s. All pure speculation, as she didn't even make it that far.

I blame/credit Elton John.

[quote] Britney did the similar thing: dance music, campy and colorful persona, obviously gay dancers and hot guys in her videos.

I wouldn't describe Britney as campy and colorful. She's just dumb. There's no "there" there. Very different from even Madonna's early persona. Say what you will about Madonna but she is very different from Britney. I don't even think early Britney qualifies as dance pop, it's just bubblegum and nothing more.

R191, Elton John cursed us not once but twice with that damned "Candle up my Ass" song. Dreck! And to think it's the biggest selling song of all time.

I'm gay and I don't love Marilyn.

I don't identify with women.

Britney copied Madonna and Kylie moreso in the late 2000s so the campiness and gay club pandering came there. Early Britney was just teen pop music and more for teen girls. I agree she wasn't as talented as Marilyn and her persona was a product of the music industry but a lot of gays gravitated to her.

The fact that Britney Spears is considered a gay icon blows my mind. Her peak popularity was in the 00s yet Mae West was more outpsoken about gays all the way back in the 30s! When did Britney Spears ever speak in favor of gays or their right to marry? Never. In fact, she was a GWB supporter.

Marilyn and Audrey seem to be the go-to icons for straight young women obsessed with old Hollywood glamour.

Gay men prefer their icons with a little more bite. Judy and Marilyn may have had similarly messy lives of drug abuse, mental breakdowns, bad marriages, and, ultimately, premature deaths, but Judy seemed to have a plucky, resilient spirit, whereas Marilyn was all softness and vulnerability.

Britney Spears is nowhere near as beautiful as Marilyn Monroe was.

None of my friends care about this. Im certain this is something old effeminate gays liked?

I knew an eldergay couple who lived in a small, shabbily decorated apartment, but owned a large collection of Barbie as Marilyn Monroe dolls prominantly displayed in the living room. I found the whole thing cliché, but to each his own.

R97 It’s still like that today. At least in music. Most gay singers have mostly straight male followings. I’m not talking about Sam Smith or Lil’ Nas X but a lot of gay indie acts have straight followings.

R196 She didn’t.

It’s just that a lot of young gay millennials loved her and she was their first dive into femininity and flamboyance. They were all singing “Lucky” in their mother’s high heels when they were little.

I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if she was actually a super hillbilly homophobe behind closed doors.

R202 This is what people mean nowadays when they say "gay icon", just a female pop star they liked when young. Ariana Grande, Cardi B and Dua Lipa are like Britney to Gen Z gays who call them "gay icons." The term is too loosely defined now. That's why I think it needs to be retired. It's really antiquated when so many gay people are out and more prominent in the media compared to the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s when divas were the closest things to gay representation.