The Celluloid Closet on TCM

On in 30 minutes.

I've always wanted to watch this movie.

Right after Rebel Without a Cause, so that fits.

Thanks, got the TV on.

Dave Karger!

He's cute.

Wow, it never dawned on me that Laurel and Hardy were super gay!

The clip from the sleazy road movie VANISHING POINT (71) really showed how ugly Hollywood's depiction of queer people was right after Stonewall.

I like the doc. The book is an interesting read, and Vito Russo was a great writer/critic, but my god was he dead wrong about Cruising. To be fair to him, much of the gay community of the time was against it, but it feels very misguided, to protest a movie before it's even been made because of the subject matter.

This is amazing so far.

I'm learning a lot.

The identification of Sal Mineo's character being the real "rebel" in Rebel Without a Cause, kind of blew my mind. He was the rebel because he was gay and oppressed, and that he actually had a reason to be a rebel. Also, that rebels in our society are usually killed, and that's what happened to Plato at the end of the movie.

That never dawned on me.

Lauren Bacall was so beautiful.

Jay Presson Allen is fabulous.

Tony Curtis is fucking hilarious.

He really was up for anything.

I love his interpretations and reactions to his various gay roles.

I love kd Lang’s cover of “Secret Love” that plays over the closing credits

It's a beautiful song, R13.

I love Doris Day's version in Calamity Jane.

A great film. It's much more powerful than the excellent book because the images are so striking. The power of the visual.

R15 in the intro Dave Karger mentioned that Lily Tomlin had to do Hollywood fundraisers for this movie, because it was so expensive to make due to the use of all the footage from so many different movies.

But it was definitely worth the money, to achieve the desired result.

Stunning documentary. I proudly own it on DVD.

R6 Gay, not queer, you fat stupid whore.

Weird to see Whoppi thin! And why is she on this show if she still insists she's straight?

And why is she on this show if she still insists she's straight?

They interviewed actors and actresses who played gay on screen.

Harry Hamlin (Making Love), Tom Hanks (Philadelphia), Susan Sarandon (Thelma & Louise), Whoopi Goldberg (Color Purple).

I love seeing their commentary.

That doesn't mean Whoppi's straight, R20.

The one who surprises me is Shirley MacLaine. She really comes off good here, perceptive and pleasant.

Love this doc and also own the DVD, which IIRC has lots of great extra interviews that didn't make the cut, worth buying just for them.

I'm spacing out on the name of the chubby woman, not an actress, whose commentary is so wonderfully insightful.......anyone?

Susie Bright, r23?

Yes! Susie Bright!! Where can I get more of her?

I forgot Whoopi was also in Boys on the Side, the lesbian movie.

Thanks OP. I watched it because of your post. I'm 52 and had never seen it. I'm grateful.

Not sure we really needed to see all of the graphic violence depicted in "Cruising." But other than that, great movie.

what is the story behind Cher not turning up for her interview?

I prefer the doc Before Stonewall

Such a good doc. I should look up the book.

Susie Bright's commentary is great: love when she's talking about Mrs. Danvers in REBECCA: "She OPENS the UNDERWEAR DRAWER!'

And later when she's talking about Shirley MacLaine's overwrought speech as Martha in THE CHILDREN'S HOUR and how sad it makes her. Astonishing that MacLaine talks about how she and Audrey Hepburn never once discussed the lesbian content.

It's a great documentary; can't believe it is already 25 years old-

And the hilarious clip with Jane Russell and the guys in the gym!! hahahahaha

Martha’s suicide in Children’s Hour makes me bawl every time. Shirley is right that if the movie had been made post 90s Martha would have stood up for herself but it wasn’t. It was the early 60s and anyone feeling dirty about their feelings is heartbreaking.

It used to be on Youtube for free.

And the wonderful way William Wyler reveals the suicide by Hepburn's reaction.

Yes, R33!

For a brief moment during that clip, I was confusing Jane Russell with Anita Bryant. And I thought, "No wonder she hates gay men so much!"

But then I realized Jane Russell is the bra lady, not the orange juice lady.

well the added unspoken bit is that Jane is said to be gay herself.

R23, the DVD release of "Bound" features an audio commentary by the (pre-transition) Wachowskis and Susie Bright. Gina Gershon and Jennifer Tilly are there for part of it as well. Bright advised on the sex scenes and was an extra in a dyke bar scene.

I saw it when it first came out. Pride weekend 1995. It’s terrific.

Enjoy!

[quote]Astonishing that MacLaine talks about how she and Audrey Hepburn never once discussed the lesbian content.

The movie was from a controversial play from the 1930s, everyone already knew the lesbian content. Why would it need to be discussed?

Susan Sarandon was gay in Thelma & Louise?

i think she also talks about the Hunger where she has sex with Catherine Deneuve.

MacLaine was making the point that never once during their entire rehearsal period did she and Audrey Hepburn ever discuss the lesbian relationship (or not!) between the characters, which she finds strange now.

I do too; that does seem strange to me.

Doesn't the dialogue indicate that they don't have a lesbian relationship, r45? Isn't it just Martha who's questioning herself?

Yes, there is no sexual relationship between Martha and Karen in The Children's Hour. Only Martha's repressed lesbianism.

When the film was first adapted for the screen in 1936, also directed by William Wyler, Miriam Hopkins played Martha (MacLaine), Merle Oberon played Karen (Hepburn) and Joel McCrea played Karen's true love interest later played by James Garner. And the lesbianism was entirely erased from the plot, believe it or not.

"I've always wanted to watch this movie."

Unless you're a frau, hand-in your gay card. This is shown in Gay 101.

Would the doc makers have had to be granted permission by Doris Day to show her scenes in Calamity Jane and hear her sing "Secret Love" as an aspect of hidden lesbianism in the film?

I love it but, I mean, I can imagine certain Golden Age actresses not being happy with that interpretation.

Can't remember if they included this sordid scene. The next scene (spoiler) is Stritch is wearing the fur coat outside and the psycho killer thinks it's Prowse and murders her. Classic treatment of homosexuals in film.

Vito is an excellent companion to this wonderful documentary. I’ve actually seen them sold together.

[quote]And the lesbianism was entirely erased from the plot, believe it or not.

Of course it was. It was 1936. When Sam Goldwyn bought the film rights, an aide said, "Mr. Goldwyn, you can't film this play. It's about lesbians!"

Goldwyn: "Lesbians, shmesbians. We'll make them Armenians!"

And that's pretty much what he did. He turned the love triangle into a straight triangle instead of a gay/straight triangle. And it worked. Great film, great performances, great direction. Better than the overlong 1960, more explicit remake.

"I've been accused of many things but never Armenianism!"

Don't forget Design For Living...

A good one that's not mentioned in either the book or the documentary is Johnny Eager (1942), with Van Heflin's Oscar winning performance as Robert Taylor's alcoholic, Shakespeare quoting "best friend."

Lubitsch's 1933 film adaptation of Noel Coward's 1932 play Design for Living kept the basic plot and set up but as Coward himself noted, only two or three of his lines of his actual dialogue were included in Ben Hecht's screenplay. Still the play about two obviously bisexual men who agree to live in a menage a trois with the woman they both want to marry while obviously being attracted to each other kept its premise. It was all very obvious yet stars Fredric March, Gary Cooper and Miriam Hopkins went all the way in with it.

It was released just before the Hayes code went into effect and when Paramount wanted to re-release it later, the Hayes office refused to approve it.

r52 At least he didn't say "Then let's get Danny Thomas!"

Merle Oberon was offered the role of the grandmother in The Children’s Hour but turned it down. The actress who played the part got an Oscar nomination. Hopkins was wonderful as Aunt Lily.

Why would this, of all threads, be grayed out?

These Three proved that the gay aspect to the plot of The Children's Hour was just a gimmick and not essential to the story.

It's odd they interviewed Jay Presson Allen yet there was no mention of Deathtrap for which she wrote the screenplay and made the gay content explicit where it was apparently left open to interpretation in the original play. I guess they couldn't get the rights to include it.

Jesus, r50, was Elaine Stritch always an old woman?

J’ADORE!!

The role of the grandmother in the remake of The Children's Hour was played by brilliant character actress Fay Bainter.

Say her name!!

[quote]The one who surprises me is Shirley MacLaine. She really comes off good here, perceptive and pleasant.

I really admired her willingness to just say "We fucked up" directly.

I've always wished Vito Russo's estate would authorize another gay critic, like Alonso Duralde or his husband, to update the book.

I've seen this movie about a dozen times over the years and I'm always impressed with Quentin Crisp and his insights. And Farley Granger still looked good too.

And, R52, These Three (1936), the "cleaned up" version of The Children's Hour, was a much better movie. I read that for years and when I finally saw the 1936 film, I agreed totally.

Pretty much, r62...

When I saw it for the first time in the late 90s, I mistakenly assumed Jay Presson Allen was MTF.

When I saw it for the first time in the late 90s, I mistakenly presumed Arthur Lauren's was a decent human being.

It's been a long time since I saw Celluloid Closet. But wasn't Ben Hur mentioned as a gay or homoerotic movie; the only person who didn't know it was a gay movie was Charlton Heston?

Yes, r71: screenwriter Gore Vidal is on hand to discuss Ben-Hur and Suddenly Last Summer.

[quote]Arthur Lauren's

Oh, dear.

Naw, Wyler and Vidal discussed the obvious gay subtext in Ben Hur's 1959 screenplay but agreed not to discuss it with Heston. But Heston had been around, played the gay casting coach when he was young, and he got it. But he didn't discuss it. Boyd had also been around and got it. People always assume their elders are stupid but they're usually wrong.

As Vidal accurately says, Boyd acted the hell out of the gay subtext. I bet Heston didn't realize what was going on until he saw the movie.

No, Heston got it, he just didn't talk about it. He was a good enough actor to know he had a great sceenplay and a brilliant director and went along for the ride.

These Three also has hottie Joel McCrea.

WHY is Heston crying during their exchanges? He GOT IT. Gore Vidal made up the story,

Who is Naw?

As much as I dislike Sarandon now, I like her as an actress. And her comment about how her character didn't need alcohol or to be drunk to want to have sex with Catherine Deneuve was very funny.

She was pretty amusing with that comment about Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid having to pull their guns instead of their dicks out.