THEATRE GOSSIP #442 - Dancin' in November and Everyone into the Wakefield Poole edition

I realize that Mornings at Seven is about four sisters in a small midwestern town in 1922, but *at least* two of the sisters should be POC.

We see you white Broadway.

Audra McDonald Sets Broadway Return In Adrienne Kennedy’s ‘Ohio State Murders’; Kenny Leon Will Direct

Adrienne Kennedy is a legend of the avant-garde. However...Broadway? BROADWAY? My prediction is that it will get raves and close in a week. This is a short play (slightly over one-hour, sound like anything closing next week?).

Why must Broadway we the endgame even when it's inappropriate.

*Why must Broadway BE the endgame even when it's inappropriate.

Is Audra box-office in a non-musical? Nathan Lane isn't (unless he has a name co-star).

We had an African-American Myrtle in our "Morning's at Seven" -- worked beautifully.

Folks from "Natasha & Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812", including one of the most diverse casts on Broadway at the time, are still fucking mad at you Cynthia for budding in.

[quote] Folks from "Natasha & Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812", including one of the most diverse casts on Broadway at the time, are still fucking mad at you Cynthia for budding in.

Oh, dear.

at you, Cynthia

[quote] Cynthia for budding in.

Can someone or something bud in? I thought budding was an outward process.

Audra sold so many tickets in "Frankie & Johnny" it closed early. That was after" Shuffle Along "closed early.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

What a shitty fucking title.

Lea Michele is coming back to Broadway after all!

[quote]The Actors Fund announced today that the original cast from the Tony Award-winning Best Musical, Spring Awakening, will reunite for a special, one-night-only benefit concert. The concert will star original cast members Skylar Astin, Gerard Canonico, Lilli Cooper, Jennifer Damiano, Christine Eastbrook, John Gallagher, Jr., Gideon Glick, Jonathan Groff, Robert Hager, Brian Johnson, Lea Michele, Lauren Pritchard, Krysta Rodriguez, Stephen Spinella, Phoebe Strole, Jonny B. Wright, and Remy Zaken. Directed by the original director, Michael Mayer, the concert will take place on Monday, November 15 at 7 pm ET at The Imperial Theatre (249 West 45th Street), home of Ain't Too Proud - The Life and Times of the Temptations.

Wonder how many of them will get comments about agreeing to work with Lea again.

Jonathan Groff is so adorable.

Aren't Groff and Michele a little long in the tooth to be recreating their roles as teenagers?

I guess that's the magic of theater.

It’s a reunion concert, r14. No one cares that Groff’s in his mid-30s and Lea Michele is 47.

R15, you are too kind.

Will there be any wigs involved in the show, asking for a friend?

One night only!

(… again… at the Imperial…)

Please not that London revival...

I’ve said that same thing about why does everything need to be on Broadway, and the answer I’ve gotten is that costs (unions, rents, advertising, etc.) have now made it harder to make money off Broadway than on.

Diana: The Musical. Opening night!

[quote] The Actors Fund announced today that the original cast from the Tony Award-winning Best Musical, Spring Awakening, will reunite

Will Lea and Jonathan form a mean girls clique?

Diana: The Musical. Closing night!

"Aren't Groff and Michele a little long in the tooth to be recreating their roles as teenagers?"

What fools would believe they are in their teens? They must have some connections.

Poor Diana. The only woman to die in a fiery car wreck twice.

You’re terrible, R25.

What off-Broadway theaters of any sustainable size are even left? I guess The Minetta Lane is one but The Promenade and The Variety Arts are gone. And there's the larger space at The Westside Arts where Little Shop of Horrors does seem able to charge exorbitant Broadway prices for some reason.

My question is: why did it take so long for producers to realize they could charge outrageous prices for Broadway shows? I guess it started with The Producers but why didn't the producers of South Pacific, My Fair Lady, Hello, Dolly!, Fiddler and a few others gouge the public? What changed?

Because for the most part commercial theatre has become a luxury goods market, R27. Like expensive cars and handbags and shoes, producers charge what the market will bear.

Which is significantly more than I’m willing to pay these days.

[quote] My question is: why did it take so long for producers to realize they could charge outrageous prices for Broadway shows? I guess it started with The Producers

It started way before then. I remember people being shocked that the original Cats was charging $65(?). But what was the show that started with the special section charging $500+.

In the 1970s and before, there were several different price options. Different prices in orchestra seats and different prices for mezzanine and balcony. Some shows had as many as eight different prices.

[quote] What off-Broadway theaters of any sustainable size are even left?

I’ve lived in NYC for 30 years and I’m so sad at the demise of off-Broadway. Most off-Broadway theaters were small spaces and required creativity to stage a show.

The Lortel is still running. I think part of what kept them open is they did a deal with a children’s theater producer that kept a steady stream of income.

New York Theatre Workshop is still running. A few in the East Village have small spaces.

But the off-Broadway scene has really declined over the years.

Thanks for the responses but I guess my question should have been more about what changed in the public tastes that's made so many thousands of people willing to pay these crazy prices? Not to mention how much more all the expenses of getting yourself to the theater, what with parking, dinner, etc.??

It seems attending the theater, at least the big hits, has become more of an imperative for the common man and tourist than ever before. My Fair Lady and Fiddler each ran for many years but rarely were able to command a thousand dollars for a pair of seats. At least, I don't think they did....

Don't most of the songs in "Spring Awakening" sound alike?

I thought MISS SAIGON was the first Broadway show to charge over $100 for a ticket?

DIANA just announced its "education program." Buried in the fine print: "50% of the profits from this program will go towards affording students the opportunity to see Diana, The Musical live on Broadway."

Are we trying to torture the children?

Remember there was a solid Broadway audience of New Yorkers who went regularly to the theater and who would not pay those crazy prices even for South Pacific or My Fair Lady. Then after they 80s it became a tourist market for people willing to pay scalper prices. It happened to the City Ballet and the Met too.

Odd casting. I'm having trouble visualizing this.

Head of Williamstown resigned

Dance company giving “rules” to critics, including mentioning everyone involved or being dragged for “erasure”

We’re so fucked

[quote] in a performance with many parts, “all works should be acknowledged … not mentioning an artist and their work is erasure.”

Based on his appearance at the Terrence McNally memorial, Groff really needs to wash his greasy hair.

His smell and his hair were probably just 2 of the reasons he was the first to speak, and never seen again until his sidewalk appearance afterwards.

RE: r37 link: It is quite simple. Ignore the dance company, they're ridiculous.

The commercial Broadway theatre has also ballooned in costs due in large part to the unions. Specifically the stagehands union (IATSE). The rules and rates outlined for any Broadway class production coming into New York crank up those weekly running costs (not to mention initial load-in/tech rehearsals). The stage hands are some of the BEST paid people in the theatre, and often are able to have a consistent Broadway job while also taking on additional work at other concert venues in the city (MSG, etc.). I know this as I used to sign off on their payroll -- and it was exorbitant back in the late 2000s.

I'm not begrudging these stage hands or their union for the rates they're able to get, but they're a big part of why Broadway productions cost so damn much to mount now. Add in the cost of manufacturing and programming automated scenery and the physical production alone can really jack that weekly nut up. Some of these is related to increasing audience expectations of spectacular and "wow" factor. But even a simple show with scrims/drops and wagons isn't cheap to mount in NYC anymore.

The musicians union hasn't made it easier for producers to hire larger pits either. True, the AFM has given up a lot to the detriment of their members (reducing orchestra house minimums), but those weekly rates aren't cheap. Barring star salaries, Actors Equity might actually be the CHEAPEST payroll of the 3 unions for any given Broadway production.

Again, I know this first hand as I would sign off on weekly payroll for a handful of major Broadway productions (hits and flops!). But because of the power/intimidation of IATSE, and (now) to a lesser extent, the AFM, it's seldom discussed in the economics of Broadway. And how they're reflected in the ticket prices. Yes, this does NOT account for the ridiculously overblown $500-700 seats at Hamilton -- that's more a case of supply and demand (and heavy spin), but even pre-The Producers, the rising union costs were forcing the producers to charge more in hopes of seeing any ROI.

Sorry, that should be "some of this is related to increasing audience expectations of SPECTACLE..."

Does anyone which major dance company is making these demands?

Also, nobody like that Williamstown artistic director and is sad to see her go.

What puzzles me most about that Geffen Virginia Woolf is that Zach Quinto would want to be part of it. Calista would have been an interesting Honey 30 years ago but never a Martha, even now. And Gordon Greenberg directing?? Oh, poor Zach....

Will Diana open and close tonight?

OMG gordon greenberg??????????????

Will Calista be using a walker during the performance and how will she not be confused with being his mother?

[quote] Also, nobody like that Williamstown artistic director and is sad to see her go.

r44 spill the tea. We need some gossip

Who knows about this and can share more!

[quote] I thought MISS SAIGON was the first Broadway show to charge over $100 for a ticket?

It was. There were no $500 tickets for Cats and they also did not charge $65 for tickets before other shows did the same.

Nicholas Nickelby

Nicholas Nickelby is a different situation. All the tix were $100 because it was a nine hour play. We're talking normal tickets for musicals ($65) and special seating.

Wait and they’re not Honey and Nick ???

A Pat Benatar musical? Jesus...

Impressive stage resume from La LuPone. There are some clips I haven’t seen before, Noises Off is one of them.

Nicholas Nickleby was BARGAIN at $100. Eight-plus hours and a cast of about 40. And it was a thrilling piece of theatre with very little expensive scenery or effects. (I cannot imagine how much it would cost to produce today without the UK government subsidies the RSC received.)

Wasn’t there something about the stage craft of Nicholas Nickleby only using stage craft from Dicken’s Victorian era and nothing more modern? There was some Broadway production that marketed that as part of their performance.

That Pat Benatar musical "directed by" Scott Schwartz sounds like a horrible idea. Are we back to using old songbooks wedged into lame stories? Did no one learn anything from GOOD VIBRATIONS?

And I saw & JULIET in London pre-pandemic and it was really horrible - so dumbed down, though made to order for the Asian teen girls who gleefully jumped around and texted at the matinee I attended.

Broadway is so dead. No longer an invalid, fabulous or not.

for Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf

"Will Diana open and close tonight?"

Yes, if those poor actors are lucky. Appearances at unemployment lines afford more dignity.

[quote] What off-Broadway theaters of any sustainable size are even left?

Lucile Lortel and Cherry Lane Theaters are now mostly used by non-profit companies.

Downtown commercial theaters:

The Players Theater and Soho Playhouse

Astor Place is owned by Blue Man Group and Stomp may as well own The Orphuim. I believe Audible has a long-term agreement with the Minetta Lane.

Midtown:

Westside Theater, New World Stages, Theater Row Theaters, St. Luke's Church, The Theater Center (f/k/a Snapple Theater) and whatever the old Signature Theater space is called now?

Every other theater is a 501(c)3, right?

r62, most of the theaters you listed are not of a "sustainable" size. You'd never make a profit even selling out those houses.

R63 -what do you conciser "sustainable" size?

Are any theaters of a "sustainable" size?

Even the commercial Broadway houses are selling products developed in not-for-profit theaters.

I miss the theaters around Union Square, the Century, the Variety Arts, the Union Sq Theatre, etc.

[quote]what do you conciser "sustainable" size?

Bigger than a breadstick.

Did anyone mention The Mitzi E. Newhouse at Lincoln Center? I believe it's designated as an Off-Broadway theater.

The Mitzi E. Newhouse at Lincoln Center in not a commercial venue. It is a non-profit theater. The discussion was about WHET commercial Off Broadway.

Thanks, R69. Please disregard my post.

As I said in my original post on the subject, commercial off-Broadway theaters of a sustainable side (meaning enough seats to hopefully turn a profit) included the now defunct Variety Arts and Promenade and the currently operating larger space at the Westside Arts (where Little House currently resides) and the Minetta Lane.

Maybe the Lortel is big enough for a very inexpensive small cast play. I can't keep track of the off-Broadway real estate Daryl Roth controls but maybe she's got something going. All others I can think of, like the Cherry Lane for example, are simply too small to be profitable for even one person shows with a simple set.

Mitzi Newhouse is DEAD TO ME!

R62 here, I forgot about the Little Shubert or whatever it's called now as a commercial OB house.

Is the Little Shubert now The Duke?

I saw so much great stuff at those defunct Off-Bway theaters when I first came to the city. I was an NYU student and I used to volunteer usher everywhere I could, Promenade, Circle in the Square downtown, Circle Rep, Minetta, Playwrights Horizons, the Provincetown Playhouse, both of the Roundabout houses when they were at the Criterion Center.... God, Off Broadway was thriving back then, and this was the tail end of it so I can just imagine what it was like in its glory.

[quote]That Pat Benatar musical "directed by" Scott Schwartz sounds like a horrible idea. Are we back to using old songbooks wedged into lame stories?

What do you mean by "back to?" There have been several examples spread out over the years since MAMMA MIA!, including some recent ones. Are you not aware of HEAD OVER HEELS?

You mean the Mitzi ?

Who doesn't love a Mitzi?

Bitch stole my role

Mitzi...

Mitzi, Lucille and Antoinette- what was it with these broads of old Broadway and their names that today one would only give froufrou little lap dogs?

Ethel and Mary don't really suggest precious little lap dogs.

If anybody suggests a dog to me, it’s Ethel.

Oh wait, you said precious and little.

Friend saw The Visitor last week and loved it. Said the score was the weakest part but the performances (especially DHP) were all great.

Saw Dana H. last night, and it will be very interesting to see what the Tony Awards decide to do with this, as it's not really a play. It's too bad the Special Theatrical Event Tony is gone, as this is a perfect example. Also will be interesting to see what they do about O'Connell, who is wonderful.

I thought the show was very compelling, just the right length and I'm very glad I went, but one thing was bothering me through much of the show, and I went online to see if it was mentioned at all in any of the reviews or discussions. So far I have been unable to find anything. But I don't believe her. There are some minor but very important inconsistencies in her story and several things did not add up. It doesn't take away from the piece as a whole or the theatrical experience, so it's not a criticism of what I saw, I just came away thinking- "Not so fast, lady. How come...?" And I wondered why it didn't occur to or was not discussed in any of the reviews. What I did find was that when critics started to say that she was an unreliable witness, what they went on to discuss was her lack of description of Jim's crimes against others, which I found a ridiculous comment.

I can't be the only person who felt this way. Is it that we've become so fucking sensitive as a society that any questioning would look like victim blaming?

POSSIBLE SEMI SPOILER FOR DANA H. AHEAD.....................

R85, if you're wondering why she didn't escape when she had at least one great opportunity to do so -- when a cop took the creep into custody and sent Dana H. free to drive off on her own -- you're not the only one.

Fairycakes is closing on 11/21, six weeks early. If a show can't make it during the holiday season, well...

Is FAIRYCAKES like INTO THE WOODS? Or tryin to be?

MORE POSSIBLE SPOILERS AHEAD for DANA H.

R86, yes, that was some of it, definitely, but there were other things like how she talked about her calling her mother in the car and her mother keeping her awake while she drove, and then later she talked all about how she hated her parents and had no relationship with them whatsoever. I'm not saying that she couldn't have called her mother, but wouldn't the mother have wanted to know what was going on? If Dana was such a churchy person, then why did NO ONE wonder where she was for all that time, not only the 5 months, but the 2 1/2 years after. Why didn't her son worry when he didn't hear from her? If this play had been done 20-30 years ago, it would have been much different, but with the "believe all women" thing going on, we're no longer allowed to question or even wonder anything. And I'm not trying to blame Dana, I'm merely saying her story doesn't add up in several places, and if you're going to present this story to me, then I've got the right to analyze and question it.

Head of Barrington OUT. No one wants these jobs now

[quote] Boyd’s retirement, announced Wednesday, is the second departure news from a major Berkshire theater company this week. On Monday, the Williamstown Theater Festival said that its artistic director, Mandy Greenfield, had stepped down.

R89, agreed on all points.

Agree on all the Dana H. points above but want to reiterate that it's not that her story inconsistencies don't make for an interesting theatrical event and after-play discussion.....but why didn't any of the critics point out the inconsistencies??

The big 3 Artistic Directors who will die in their positions are Lynne Meadow, Todd Haimes and Andre Bishop. I think Lynne has been running MTC for almost 50 years!

[quote]Agree on all the Dana H. points above but want to reiterate that it's not that her story inconsistencies don't make for an interesting theatrical event and after-play discussion.....but why didn't any of the critics point out the inconsistencies??

Yes, I have the same question. Maybe they were indeed afraid of perceived "victim blaming," but that's not what this is about at all, just some confusion over some specific points of the true story.

Haven't there been accusations that Dana's story, as presented, is not true?

Yes, lots of lively discussion about that on my FB feed from friends, r95. Haven't looked, but has Lucas Hnath addressed any of it?

Peter Marks is saying none of the Broadway shows currently open will stay open long without a significant uptick in business. Hell, I saw an off-Broadway show last night and I was the only one in a row seating 24.

And people like Jordan Roth and the Shuberts won't allow discounted seats, oh, Heaven forbid.

Where is Peter Marks saying that? There are several Broadway shows which are clearly in no danger of closing anytime soon.

Chicago and Waitress seem to be doing very well.

R99 how can you tell without knowing the grosses?

Fun to see a bunch of you all talking about a show again. Why is it closing? Did any of you PAY for a ticket? Did anyone?

"We had an African-American Myrtle in our "Morning's at Seven" -- worked beautifully."

...while the audience sat there thinking, WTF?? In the play, one sister can't even have a passing, ambiguous flirtation with her brother-in-law without causing a scandal, but in your production.....???? So much for reality in the most naturalistic of plays. Context is all.

*Why must Broadway BE the endgame even when it's inappropriate."

Delusion, hubris, write-off, take your pick.

"I guess my question should have been more about what changed in the public tastes that's made so many thousands of people willing to pay these crazy prices?"

Lack of education, no discernment, brainwashing by the media...but why go on? The culture we get is the culture we deserve.

"Said the score was the weakest part"

State-of-the-art!

[quote] Is FAIRYCAKES like INTO THE WOODS?

Yes but without the songs, humor, coherent script, or charm.

Wasn’t it Fran Lebowitz who talked about the sophisticated audience that Gay men were for theater, music and opera and how things changed when so many of them died off from AIDS? It’s like they had to go broader or be more inviting for the masses to fill the void that would have been filled by all those dead, beautiful Gay men.

The sister in "Morning's at Seven" may have, in fact, slept with her brother-in-law, and at the curtain of Act One wishes his wife, her sister, to be dead (which she immediately takes back). In the times the play was written and decades afterwards, having the son/nephew bring a POC fiancee would have caused all sort of issues to arise from his family. Now, probably it still has the ability to start ticking in audience members like R102 . But the cast made no remarks about this nor the director, and it played something like Kathleen Battle appearing in "Der Rosenkavalier" -- but with better acting.

I got my ticket for Dana H. on tdf. It was pretty crowded last night, at least in the orchestra, which was almost full except for the back row. I'm not sure what was doing upstairs. I do know that I wanted to shove the old asshole in front of me in line out of the way when, after being asked repeatedly to have his vax and ID out and ready, when he got up to the woman checking them looked at her like he had no idea what she was asking him and had to fish everything out of an overstuffed wallet TWICE.

I'm about a fourth way through part two. They show Karen Mason every so often but they still haven't mentioned her name. It's too bad. She could have made her mark with that role.

"it played something like Kathleen Battle appearing in "Der Rosenkavalier"

The 18th century Viennese fairy tale that is Rosenkavalier is worlds removed from the naturalistic American milieu of Morning's At Seven.

I find this constant attention to flop musicals tiresome. It's a weird subculture, and why would it possibly matter to spend another hour talking about "Spiderman." The sucked and was dangerous. Enough said.

It's not like Hollywood obsesses over the hundreds of flop tv shows and movies each year.

WTF is this all about?

[quote]why didn't any of the critics point out the inconsistencies??

Because it wasn't in the press release. MANY critics just regurgitate the points in the press release for their reviews. Let's face it: they are not great thinkers.

Tiresome and...weird, r110? Pray tell what else you find tiresome and weird so that we may adjust our posts to suit your superior interests.

Does Danvers sing anything but "ReBECCA...ReBECCA"? But that fire IS spectacular and a true coup de théâtre!

I always enjoy a nice fire in a theatre.

There was a terrific fire in "The Rise And Fall Of Little Voice", piece of shit that it was.

Pia's not only a Danvers, but also a Velma!

Can we all agree that if REBECCA was so great, another set of producers would have picked it up and gotten it on Broadway by now?

Did anyone ever think Rebecca was good? It's horrible reputation preceded it by a mile.

What sets it apart is how it all went down. I mean, it had it's own episode on American Greed.

I saw that episode just last week. The guy was a con man extraordinaire and basically ran more and more elaborate ponzi schemes bilking even his closest -- and rich -- friends off all their savings. His wife was in on it all. The episode covered his entire career and only the last 15 minutes or so was about Rebecca. He promised to put up millions in production costs with money that just didn't exist, although he had substantial phony records documenting it. He was so deranged I never figured out what his end game was with Rebecca. All I could figure out that he had a flamboyant, histrionic personality and was attracted to the glamor of being known as a Broadway producer.

At a final producers' meeting he was confronted with evidence of his duplicity and he simply stood stood up and walked out room. He was arrested on various charges shortly after. Not his first arrest or conviction.

All true, R120. But it's a shame that, with all the focus on the duplicity of that total fraud of a human being, very few people paid attention to the shady actions of REBECCA's producer, Ben Sprecher -- who later got in trouble with the law for an unrelated crime, possession of child pornography, but was never held responsible for his sleazy and dishonest behavior in trying to get the show to Broadway.

Yikes! Life upon the wicked stage ain't ever what a girl supposes.

Good on the publicity guy for sending those two emails.

[quote]Good on the publicity guy for sending those two emails.

Agreed. And yet, at least one seriously deluded principal involved in the production still sees the PR guy as the villain and sleazeball Sprecher as the hero. Absolutely Incredible.

And the PR guy had to pay a certain amount.

Damn that Bethany Walsh and Sarah Finkelstein!

Hey, not every Broadway production of a European megamusical hit with a new creative team is a winner in the 21st century…

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Why does no one mention me when they talk about coups de theatre? I put Tevye in a puffy Patagonia coat at the start of Fiddler and had Eliza exit through the audience of My Fair Lady. And don’t forget the naked sailors showering during South Pacific. Just imagine what I could have done with Funny Girl!

Fucked her Bart?

Actually, the one great Coup de theatre that Bart came up with was the orchestra pit opeing during the overture in South Pacific. Made me cry.

Is This a Room is extending? Was this planned all along? Why not Dana H?

They're both extending two weeks because of ticket demand.

R132. Both are extending. Ticket sales allegedly picked up after closing notice was posted.

Perfect holiday fare. Bring the kiddies.

[quote]Actually, the one great Coup de theatre that Bart came up with was the orchestra pit opeing during the overture in South Pacific. Made me cry.

Well, that huge ship arriving at the beginning of THE KING AND I was pretty spectacular, as well.

[quote]Both are extending. Ticket sales allegedly picked up after closing notice was posted.

Both are "extending" two weeks after the initial announcement that both would be closing about two months early.

[quote]And don’t forget the naked sailors showering during South Pacific.

I wish I could have gotten away with that in my day.

[quote]Well, that huge ship arriving at the beginning of THE KING AND I was pretty spectacular, as well.

Spectacular unless you were sitting anywhere near it, in which case you had no view of who was on board because the ship blocked the view. I also remember that Ken Watanabe was sitting cross-legged right in the front middle of the stage, blocking the view of what was going on in front of him during one of the big numbers...either March of the Siamese Children or House of Uncle Thomas. Lousy blocking choices on Bart's part. I know the Beau can be a difficult theater, but couldn't he have placed the King behind the action? And don't me started on Watanabe's lousy English.

[quote] I wish I could have gotten away with that in my day—Josh Logan

Why do I suspect that Josh invited some of the chorus boys to shower with him at home when Mrs. Logan was away?

Josh Logan did try to have the guys in the locker scene in "All American" wear jocks, but that was nixed. I wonder if he ever staged it that way during rehearsals, but he seems the type more than likely to hang out with the male chorus as they get dressed at showtime.

wear jocks only and showing, on stage.

The story I remember about the Physical Fitness number in All American was that Logan was either rehearsing with some of the guys wearing only jockstraps or had announced to the press he was. The show was previewing in Boston, which had the strictest censorship board in the country, and the producers received a letter telling them that if there were any bare butts onstage, the show would be shut down. So the guys ended up in football pants, gym shorts and briefs. Logan wanted to restage it for New York but the producers told him it worked fine as it was and not to spend any more money on reworking it.

I always wondered if the whole thing wasn't a publicity stunt.

More All American. Oo la la.

I see one guy wearing a jockstrap in r143's photo but along with hip pads and shoulder pads.

The actor on the left in r143's picture is George Lindsay, who was Goober Pyle on the Andy Griffith Show.

[quote] I always wondered if the whole thing wasn't a publicity stunt.

Bingo!

Those are probably still dance briefs, r144.

Baz Bamigboye tweeted this:

Creative team ,cast & crew of ⁦Cinderella⁩ will re-rehearse show from Monday to introduce what are being called “adjustments.” There has been “tension” & “upset” backstage following remarks ALW made to cast last Friday-comments broadcast from his mobile over speakers.

Jesus, I wonder what he said. ALW is such a cunt. I’m amazed nobody’s tried to silence him for good.

[quote]comments broadcast from his mobile over speakers

...because he doesn't have the balls to say it to their faces.

I suspect having the guys in jockstraps in ALL-AMERICAN was planned partly with publicity in mind, but regardless, I think Josh Logan would have REALLY gotten his kicks out of that staging if he had gotten away with it.

Can anyone ID the guy in briefs on the left of R142's picture? He's probably long-dead or super-old, but 59 years ago ...

I'm sure *somebody* must have a Playbill to narrow it down, r151.

Personally, I would be thrilled to see more jockstrap representation on Broadway.

*This* was a hit record???

Here's the cast list for ALL AMERICAN, but I don't know how we would narrow it down to who that guy in briefs is among all the football players.

You know what this thread needs?

DL faves Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande cast in movie version of Wicked.

LET THE BITCHING BEGIN!

I'll start!

It's weird casting because they don't mesh.

Erivo reads a bit old for the role (she is and looks like she's in her 30s) while Ariana reads quite a bit younger. They're supposed to be the same age.

This is a joke right? I know it’s not April first, but this has got to be a joke?

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1981, "Crimes of the Heart" opened at the John Golden Theatre.

Will they use the same hair person who did Ben Platt's hair for "Dear Evan Hansen"?

Crimes

I’ve always wanted the clip where she explains why mama killed that cat in the oven alongside her.

It’s true, r159. John Chu announced it. There are breaking articles at Variety, Deadline, all the usual suspects.

I love the speculation that Pete Davidson will play Fiyero.

Hey, why not Billy Porter as Madame Morrible?

I think Billy was probably hoping for Elphaba.

Re: WICKED

Pic is being [bold]produced by Marc Platt[/bold] through his Universal-based [bold]Marc Platt Productions[/bold].

Guess we should count on Ben as Fiyero, no?

The film will probably get shut down and they'll have to start over again after Erivo starts complaining that they didn't cast a black girl as her sister and that it's another example of a white performer appropriating a black part.

What's with Hollywood deblonding established blonde characters lately? Aquaman. Glinda. The upcoming He-Man and Supergirl.

Who says they’re deblonding Glinda? Haven’t you heard of wigs?

Is Erivo going to do the part in greenface? If so, that's shocking and a disgusting example of racial appropriation.

[quote] Then her ex-husband pops in with "Strange how poignant cheap music is."

Potent. Her ex says “Strange how potent cheap music is,” not “poignant.”

[quote] Is Erivo going to do the part in greenface?

They are so going to CGI this and it’s going to end up looking as bad as Cats.

I hope they make Erivo sign an NDA. She’s pretty loose with her Twitter.

There have been plenty of black actresses who've played Elphaba.

However much of a pain she is in real life, Erivo is talented. I imagine she'll be great. Grande on the other hand, oy.

Will Pete Davidson be playing a Winkie?

Will Pete Davidson be showing his Winkie?

Will Pete Davidson be showing his Winkie defying gravity?

It's not that Erivo is black, it's that she looks like she's pushing 40 and ought to be playing Morrible, not Elphaba. Grande looks young enough to be her daughter, not her peer.

Taraji P. Henson as Morrible!

The leaked Wicked auditions.

[quote]Is Erivo going to do the part in greenface? If so, that's shocking and a disgusting example of racial appropriation.

R171, you beat me to it! :-)

Ben Platt is all wrong for Fiyero -- and maybe you were joking about that, R167 -- but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he's cast as Boq.

Jonah Platt already played Fiyero

that link looks like it didn't work

I just read Razzle Dazzle and was confused by the acknowledgments. Is Michael Riedel straight?

Who is Pete Davidson?

hey, the t shirts are clean!

.......

The ASSASSINS revival at CSC has begun previews. Word is that it's really, really good.

It's also currently sold out for the length of its run.

Will it... move?

Why didn't they consider one of the girls working on a production from the Blue Man group? Always overlooked.

WICKED THE MOVIE will end up smelling like a bag of cat turds.

So all the cat people will turn out for it. A huge hit.

OMFG is the new Times critic a BAD writer. I don't take issue with her not liking The Visitor but she cannot write--

[quote] Kitt’s music has a generic pop sound that sometimes works....But most of the time it doesn’t work; upbeat songs or soft, slowed-down percussion feel at odds with the heavy subject matter.

[quote] Hyde Pierce speak-sings his way through the score, or spastically works himself up into the bravado needed for the nauseatingly cheesy “Better Angels,” which is meant to be a triumphant showstopper.

[quote] Deslorieux has the strongest voice of the main cast, crooning with delicate rolling r’s for her character’s accent.

THis is New York Times criticism?

R192 I read that review as well, without knowing the author, and was shocked at how poorly written it was. Then I saw that she is a brand new hire. Also shocked that she would find the ridiculous chorus moments as one of the better parts of the show. The ensemble moments were cringe-worthy. I do agree with her on the redundant, over-musicalization. But to disparage DH Pierce is strange. His characterization and acting were what grounded an otherwise overwrought show.

[quote] The music sometimes works...but most of the time it doesn't work.

Incisive.

Oh, Laura…

[quote]Producer Fourth Wall Live announced the new casting in a statement today but didn’t disclose the reason for the replacement, noting only that “The previously announced Laura Osnes is no longer performing in Bonnie and Clyde in Concert.”

[quote]In the Fourth Wall recasting announcement today, the producer notes, “Fourth Wall Live is committed to following all relevant UK Government Covid-19 guidelines, creating a safe working environment for our cast, musicians, creatives, crew and their families.”

Oh I do like that passive aggression

Don't you worry about Laura Osnes. She and Chad Kimball will be doing Two By Two at the Des Moines Christian Dinner Theatre ("Friday is Loaves and Fishes Night!") next summer!

[quote]Laura Osnes Out As Bonnie In London ‘Bonnie & Clyde’ Concert Event

Tell Laura I love her.

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1987, "Into The Woods" opened at the Martin Beck Theatre.

[quote]Maya Phillips is a critic at large. She is the author of the poetry collection “Erou” and “NERD: Adventures in Fandom From This Universe to the Multiverse,” forthcoming from Atria Books.

Critic at large=freelancer at the Times. Their theatre coverage is staffed by numerous freelancers these days, one worse than the next. Philips seems to have no concept how musicals work, or that, in fact, a good musical can be about almost anything or anyone.

[quote]What comes to mind when you think about immigration, ICE and deportation? I’m willing to bet more than a few George Washingtons that it’s not “musical.”

Welcome to amateur night.

THE VISITOR sounds pretty awful. But that Times review is even worse.

If there's a scene with Ahmad Maksoud in the shower, I'm in.

Ben Platt is in another film, whining about the "heartbreak" of the past few months - he really did think he was getting an Oscar, didn't he? Amusing he talks about the loving arms of a British cast and crew and then only specifically credits Americans

Also, I only saw that because "Ben Platt" is currently trending on Twitter due to the amount of tweets hoping he isn't cast in Wicked

Singapore/Fling must have been passed over for tenure at his theatre school, since he's become a huge ageist while otherwise pushing a woke agenda over on ATC and blaming white baby boomers for existing and/or having jobs.

Anybody no matter how bad is better than Clive Barnes.

There were numerous reports of audience members over the years seeing Barnes sleeping in the theater at shows he later reviewed, perhaps leaning on his wife for her recollections of what he was supposed to experience. I don't know why he wasn't fired many years before he stopped writing. Also, many shows with great scores were dismissed by him (and flopped or weren't produced as much) around the time of "Hair" where he only really wanted rock shows to be on Broadway.

[quote]THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1987, "Into The Woods" opened at the Martin Beck Theatre.

Last show I saw before moving to Hawaii.

First row center mezzanine, $65.

So are the "critics" for any play with POC characters going to just be assigned based on their race?

[quote]Hyde Pierce speak-sings his way through the score, or spastically works himself up into the bravado needed for the nauseatingly cheesy “Better Angels,” which is meant to be a triumphant showstopper.

Did she really use the word "spastically" in that context? Holy crap.

[quote]Singapore/Fling must have been passed over for tenure at his theatre school, since he's become a huge ageist while otherwise pushing a woke agenda over on ATC and blaming white baby boomers for existing and/or having jobs.

Here's hoping. He long ago became a caricature of ridiculous, out-of-control wokeness, to the point where his posts read like satire. Somebody like that should not be molding young minds.

Sorry to disagree (and I realize I may be in the minority) but Singapore/Fling is a breath of fresh air and honest progressive thinking on that ancient site. I can't say how often he's changed my mind on issues and made me see things in a new light.

I don’t know who the Singapore person is but even knowing nothing I know they are more qualified than spastically untalented Maya Phillips

R210 = Singapore/Fling. R209 nails it. S/F's posts are the most ridiculously oversensitive, virtue signaling puff pieces I've read on that board (which is saying something) It's liberal academia run completely amuck.

And you're right: ageism IS alive and well. Especially in the arts. In fact, it's the last acceptable form of discrimination. And boy, I can't wait until someone decides to call that one! It might be the thing that actually cripples this wokedom.

I've come to believe that those writing about the theatre in this hyper-woke fashion likely aren't actually INVOLVED in the professional theatre. And if they are, they're not succeeding in it and need to blame someone for their lack of success.

More times than not, it comes across as jealousy masquerading as social justice. And it's killing the arts. Now THAT's literal violence, folks.

S/F makes ryhog sound reasonable in contrast. And that's saying something. S/Fling goes out of his way to self-anointed defender of inclusivity and diversity, UNLESS it's someone older than him (he's described himself as a white guy in his early to mid 40s), then he starts calling out white baby boomers who presumably won't give up their jobs or might get jobs he wants. He's an ageist promulgator who is as phony as they come, using all sorts of Drumpf-ian tactics when arguing points such as selectively using quotes out of context, spinning things people didn't say to push forward his agenda, deflection when someone says something that makes a mockery of his bullshit, etc. He's a piece of work all right.

Did someone mention...Singapore?

I don't know who, or what Singapore Fling is, and I don't fucking care.

The quote is "Broadway doesn't go into for booze or dope or crummy Singapore/Fling."

strike the "into"

Would be interesting to eventually discover Singapore/Fling's identity. That would probably answer multiple questions, perhaps including what the hell his handle refers to. Is it supposed to be some sort of dumb play on Singapore Sling?

It's some sort of cultural appropriation. He made some mention that he had spent some time in Singapore. From his previous posts, he also apparently has a black boyfriend/partner who has apparently brainwashed him to make him think he is speaking for black people. Well, black people who also want to discriminate against older people than him and his generation.

Chad Kimball is a practicing Christian. But these days, he shows little interest in turning the other cheek.

“Jesus never commanded us to not defend ourselves,” he told The Post. “As Christians, we are commanded to seek out justice, truth and restoration. The law gives us opportunities to do all of those things.”

Wasn't Osnes dumped from a Disney Princess concert tour a few months ago because she refused to get vaccinated?

And wasn't ALNM the first Sondheim show Barnes finally gave a good review in the Times? That was nearly 50 years ago, my memory may be off and I'm open to correction.

[quote]Meanwhile, Kimball, who was a 2010 Tony nominee for his role in “Memphis,” told The Post that his religion can be a liability on Broadway: “Christians can sometimes be looked down upon in the theater world. Historically, the theater community is made up largely of marginalized members of society. Unfortunately, there’s been friction between them and the church.”

Is Chad referring to all the Jews and fags in the theatre community?

Barnes was forced to re-review Dreamgirls because the creators caught him sleeping during the show. His first review was a pan, the forced follow-up was a rave.

Chad Kimball is so fucking tiresome.

[quote]Meanwhile, Kimball, who was a 2010 Tony nominee for his role in “Memphis,” told The Post that his religion can be a liability on Broadway: “Christians can sometimes be looked down upon in the theater world. Historically, the theater community is made up largely of marginalized members of society. Unfortunately, there’s been friction between them and the church.”

You know how bitchy fags can be.

Are they going to CGI Cynthia Erivo to appear as young and dewy as Ariana Grande?

Cythina Erivo as Elphaba is almost as stupid as casting Diana Ross as Dorothy.

Wait...is Diana Ross available to play a role in this?

The far left are infatuated by the British, which is

R227 I've noticed that, too. You never saw so much British casting in U.S. films until the 2010s. It's like the far-left are trying to get back at America for the Revolutionary War. It's the way they show their rebellion.

Anyone else wonder why the rest of the country thinks of Hollywood as Un-American?

No, no one wonders that but you, Matt, you little Trumper, you.

I think Julie Andrews should play Madame Morrible in the movie of Wicked!

Cripple Ado Annie as gender queer Boq!

R230 Yes, we do. And I'm not a Trumper. I'm beginning to question Hollywood's (and Broadway's) loyalty to the country.

I guess actors have always been very different people.

[quote]Christians can sometimes be looked down upon in the theater world. Historically, the theater community is made up largely of marginalized members of society. Unfortunately, there’s been friction between them and the church.

Did it ever occur to Milky White that the "friction" he so glibly speaks of is the direct result of discrimination against the "marginalized members of society" by his very own beloved christian church?

Who were the runners up to Errivo? 30’ish actresses with huge voices (and a brand name)?

Chad Kimball’s nickname should be Princess Tinymeat because he ain’t that impressive. Pity the wife.

Chad Kimball can kiss Broadway goodbye with his statement. Minorities (I hate that word) are essential part of theatre community. On and off stage.

I’m following Katherine Gallagher on TikTok and while I like her, she seems tedious and very privileged.

Here’s hoping the Times critic gets in trouble for “spastically.”

[quote] Chad Kimball’s nickname should be Princess Tinymeat

how do you know r237

He's lying, that's how.

[quote]Latrine Used by Ancient Actors Discovered Among Ruins of Theater in Turkey

And puzzlingly found inscribed on a nearby wall: "Corn? When did I have corn?"

[quote]the communal “artist toilet” could accommodate about a dozen people at a time

Amateurs

[quote]The use of this toilet space by a large number of people also brought socialization.

I just bet it did.

I like that it was “U” shaped so that you could chat with your fellow actor across the way as you took your dump.

I wonder how Wayman Wong of "All That Chat" is reacting to the downfall and cancellation of Chad Kimball, with whom WW used to be so enamored?

I've been on my knees, err...praying.

I don't get why the Times pays full-time theater and film critics and then doesn't even make them write all the reviews. Wtf else are they doing?

She is full time now

[quote] Maya was the inaugural arts critic fellow at The New York Times and is now a full-time critic at the Times, where she writes about theater, movies, TV, books, and nerd culture.

Chad certainly stands a chance of being cast as a flying monkey in the Wicked movie.

Someone on the discussion thread about his lawsuit shared his dick pic. Or claimed as his dick pic. He does own the Superman hat in the background.

One of the best chapters in Goldman's The Season is his takedown of Barnes. And everything he said was true as the man was utterly worthless. And everybody in the theatrical community at the time felt the same. I don't know what Barnes had on the people at the Times as they kept him.

TREVOR is in previews off-Bway. Musical about the gay kid obsessed with Diana Ross, etc. and based on the movie of the same name.

My expectations were low but it's actually delightful. The kid is really good, as are the others in the cast (playing junior high school students, parents, Diana). Very sweet and nicely staged.

Say what you want about Barnes (and his taste was categorically awful) but at least the man could craft a readable sentence. Are there no qualified writers left in NYC?

[quote] Are there no qualified writers left in NYC?

To get a cushy job, like theater critic, at a prestige periodical you have to have an “in”. You have to know someone.

Was Barnes the one who described Sondheim melodies as “Oh yeah?” as opposed to “Wow!” ?

Wouldn't that make him "WOKE" R235? We wouldn't want that.

Stop being so WOKE, R238!

[quote]Wouldn't that make him "WOKE"

[quote]Stop being so WOKE

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Remember that Barnes spent many many years at the Post, probably many more than at the Times

Jackie Hoffman just tweeted that she wants to do Legends with Julie Halston. Does she want to play the role of the maid, formerly played by a Black woman? How very woke of her.

[quote]Jackie Hoffman just tweeted that she wants to do Legends with Julie Halston. Does she want to play the role of the maid, formerly played by a Black woman?

That must be it, because Jackie is definitely not right for either of the two leads.

Funny, when I worked in the Broadway theater (1974 - 1994), we would pray that Barnes would fall asleep. The word was that if he napped, he always gave a good review. I specifically remember seeing him snooze during the press performance for a Danny Aiello play called KNOCKOUT. Barnes was the only critic to give it a rave review. Although it only ran for a few months, without the Barnes review, it would have closed on opening night.

[quote]Jackie Hoffman just tweeted that she wants to do Legends with Julie Halston. Does she want to play the role of the maid, formerly played by a Black woman? How very woke of her.

"Legends!" stinks to high heaven. I've seen three productions of it, including the original with Mary Martin and Carol Channing and a stinko revival with Joan Collins and Linda Evans. If Jackie Hoffman thinks she can make it work with her nonstop mugging, she's delusional.

Maybe she'll have ladies or gents made up like Joan Crawford and Bette Davis? Hoffman covered that territory, playing it sincerely and quite well. But with the "Legends" script, time to let loose, as usual and to the tenth power (if that other casting happened).

[quote]Say what you want about Barnes (and his taste was categorically awful) but at least the man could craft a readable sentence.

Hmm, I think most people would agree that his writing ability didn't come close to making up for his awful taste PLUS the fact that he slept through so many of the shows he reviewed.

Didn't anybody in the audience ever whisper-yell (Psst!) at for him to wake up? or kick his chair? These Barnes sleeping stories weren't a rarity when he was reviewing.

r254

Is Trevor a period piece….and when is it set? Cuz no one of more recent vintages would want to be Diana Ross (Who?).

TREVOR is set in 1981, with Miss Ross in still-youthful disco diva mode, in a midwestern burb. It's a smart choice: there's no awareness of (or concern over) the bullying that kids are subject to, and the parents and teachers are pig-ignorant of it all. It also doesn't camp up the early 80s too much either, which is refreshing.

The script gets a little coy around LGBT identity: Trevor is an outsider and "weird" to most of his peers but when "faggot" is finally spoken it's like a gun firing. As a child of that era, it felt truthful. They're not projecting enlightened attitudes from 2021 that none of the teens or adults would have had 40 years ago.

It's not for everyone, but worth checking out.

I do not know if it still does, but entry level jobs at the Times required four years experience on a college paper. That meant they only took people who decided on a career in high school and remained narrowly focused.

Higher level jobs, like critics and arts editors are different obviously. But I think even there the Times keeps a narrow mindset. The arts journalists it highers often have little experience in other types of writing, let alone other fields. That is why all Times critics seem to be preserved under glass rather than engaged in current culture.

How much do we wish the Diana musical were about Miss Ross instead?

I wonder if the divine Miss Ross hasn’t gotten a bio musical because people assume her story was already told in DREAMGIRLS.

You mean it's not? Wouldn't the music be a lot better?

Isn't Diana also a supporting character in Motown the Musical? Back to Clive Barnes for a second ... if he gave positive reviews to shows he fell asleep at (out of guilt?), then I can imagine that once it was known, no producer would dare want to wake him.

The German cast of Frozen on TV last night:

He arrived extremely late at the opening night(when that's when critics went) of David Merrick's The Happy Time due to a speaking engagement he took on out of town that afternoon. Merrick held the curtain for him annoying the other critics to no end. Supposedly he gave this flop musical a good review because he was too embarrassed not to. The shit he got away with. Merrick could have started the show when it was supposed to keeping the other critics happy and snickering at Barnes and he would have had to give the show a good review in any case.

The Times is now using critics who are selected for their age, gender, and political point of view. Knowing anything about theater or being a fine writer does not matter anymore. They'd rather have people who can ramble on in podcasts, pretending that they matter. The good news is Broadway is emerging into a post-Times era, and the grey lady's impact has pretty much faded. And with Rudin no longer spending ridiculous sums on his Sunday ego boosts, the coverage will continue to veer to something akin to a Bryn Mawr MFA candidate's journal.

Critics!

Might now be the time for the NY Times to finally release its articles/interviews about #metoo on Broadway? Are there any producers left who they need to worry about offending?

[Quote] The good news is Broadway is emerging into a post-Times era, and the grey lady's impact has pretty much faded.

Is that good news? I miss good Times coverage and reviews

And how many generations ago was that?

R279, that movie aired on TCM last week and I recorded it. Is it worth watching?

I haven't seen it in decades, r283. I don't remember it being anywhere near as good as The Facts of Life.

Does the Times really have high standards?

They hired Charles Isherwood who write a biography of Joey Stefano, the gay porn star.

Patti’s understudy in Company looks waaaaay too young. Does she have a standby or does Jennifer Simard cover her?

Ugh...who WROTE a biography of Joey Stefano.

Christopher Isherwood. The Times was on a big gay hiring binge back then because off their previous homophobia.

CHARLES Isherwood!!!

If Barnes fell asleep during DREAMGIRLS, he must have been in a coma.

Yes, CHARLES. Seriously, MEA CULPA! Christopher Isherwood wrote the short stories on which Cabaret was eventually based.

What's this about Trisha Yearwood?

Thanks, R284.

If you want to watch a genuinely funny and sweet movie about a NY drama critic during the Golden Age of Broadway, try PLEASE DON'T EAT THE DAISIES, based on Jean Kerr's comic novel about her marriage to Times critic Walter Kerr. Far better than Doris Day's more well-known films, IMHO.

Please Don’t Eat the Daisies is charming and lightly funny, and benefits from the presence of delightful queen Richard Haydn (pre-Sound of Music), Hollywood’s queen of the dykes, Spring Byington, and New York good ol’ gal dyke, Patsy Kelly. Add them to stars Doris, Niven, and Janis Paige, & that’s a dynamite cast.

Oh c'mon, who doesn't love...

I love DAISIES but always marvel how Day and Niven could have all those young sons who are virtually all the same age, yet none are twins, triplets, etc.

I adore that musical number at r296! Everything from the look of the community theater cast to the half-built scenery to Doris' rehearsal skirt is so sweetly and realistically observed.

It's *all* about that rehearsal skirt, r298.

R221: Yes and Yes.

Jan

[quote]I love DAISIES but always marvel how Day and Niven could have all those young sons who are virtually all the same age, yet none are twins, triplets, etc.

I've never seen the movie, but I remember that in the short-lived TV series based on it, two of the young sons were twins. Maybe, for the movie, they couldn't find twins who fit the parts and could act?

Janis Paige is still with us at age 99! Especially great, fun work from her in "Please Don't Eat the Daisies" and "Silk Stockings". Her early film work she was fine as a more typical leading lady, singing well, but she had a much more outgoing nature and with great material could really stand out.

Janis Paige starred in the original Broadway production of "The Pajama Game." For the movie version, she was replaced by Doris Day.

For box office reasons, The Pajama Game was going to have one major movie star. Once Day agreed to take the female lead, Raitt was guaranteed to repeat his role, along with the rest of the Broadway cast.. Sorry, Janice.

[quote]For box office reasons, The Pajama Game was going to have one major movie star. Once Day agreed to take the female lead, Raitt was guaranteed to repeat his role, along with the rest of the Broadway cast.. Sorry, Janice.

The same thing happened with the movie version of "Damn Yankees," written by the same team as "The Pajama Game." Casting Tab Hunter as Joe Hardy (played on Broadway by Stephen Douglass) allowed most of rest of the original cast to repeat their roles, including Gwen Verdon.

Damn Yankees was written with Marilyn Monroe in mind as Lola but she strang the producers along until it was time to start rehearsals and never signed a contract. So they had to start auditions for the part at the last minute and it quickly got down to Mitzi Gaynor, Zizi Jeanmaire and Verdon. There was a lot of surprise when Monroe didn't do the film but the producers had had quite enough of her, thank you very much.

^ Richard Adler said later in interviews that Monroe's refusal to sign was probably the best thing that happened to the show.

R307 R308 I watched the Gwen Verdon documentary the other day. She said when they heard marilyn sing, and with her soft voice, there was no way they could use her.

Marilyn could never have done those Fosse moves.

Janis Paige was my Mame on Broadway. I was practically a fetus so I recall nothing but apparently I loved it

r307, are you saying DAMN YANKESS, the Broadway show or the film was created with MM in mind?

I can understand MM backing out of a possible long-running show but it would seem the film would have been a perfect project for her.

Wasn't Marilyn under contract to 20th Century Fox? I would be surprised if the studio had agreed to loan her to WB to make Damn Yankees.

So, after everything else, this weekend, the Public Theatre decided not to notify ticket holders in advance David Hyde-Pierce was not performing in both Saturday and Sunday matinee and evening performances. Isn't it funny the musical, which received awful reviews from the critics, went on anyway, without a whiff of word of his absence sneaking out? After all the crap this show has been through, they decide to keep secret the one aspect of the musical left to see the musical. Its only name performer.

who was the understudy and how was they?

They was copacetic.

R315-They was competent, but had a very thin voice. Not that Hyde-Pierce would have sung it any better.

Hyde Pierce is known to sing spasmodically.

A regulah Spazz Palminteri, that one.

[quote] They was competent

That made my eyes hurt, R317

We Don't See You DHP

Frank Sinatra was offered "Pajama Game", and it would have stared Janis Paige in that case. But he turned it down -- I'd rather not have seen his shirtless bod in that one pair of pajamas he and the leading lady shared in the finale anyway. Raitt was much better anyway, and Doris was lovely. I'm sure Janis would have been a lot of fun, but she did get to sing and dance with Fred Astaire in "Silk Stockings" around that time, and she was great in it.

What's the work on Kimberly Akimbo? I love me my Vicki Clark!

Love her...

Any relation to Legs Akimbo, r323?

Prime Janis in 'Silk Stockings" - sexy and fun, and the guy she's seducing is so cute, too.

[quote]Marilyn could never have done those Fosse moves.

And she wouldn't have been expected to. Had she done the movie, the choreography for Lola would have been minimized.

So what next for Ari'e'l S'ta'ch'el? Did he sit back, spread those thicc middle eastern thighs and stroke his middle eastern cock while reading those Visitor reviews?

R327 Actually, Marilyn had already done some Jack Cole moves in her film, coached many times by Jack Cole's assistant, Gwen Verdon. Bob Fosse actually was influenced by Cole's dances (another way of saying he stole some of his moves).

Because we haven't mentioned Follies in awhile.

Jack Cole had Marilyn *move*, r329, not *dance*.

[quote]Jack Cole had Marilyn *move*, [R329], not *dance*.

Or had her be moved, as when the chorus boys pick her up and move her to a different spot in "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend."

^^ A trick that Onna White used years later for Lucy/Mame. ^^

Doris wipes Raitt off the screen. Keel or especially MacRae should have done the role. You would have had a better more charismatic balance. Still everyone must get the Warner bluray as it is fabulous with color and you get to see Ken Leroy just before he created Bernardo, the wonderful dancer and Robbin's lover Buzz Miller and Reta Shaw singing and dancing. And the great Harry Stradling makes a a factory look like the perfect place for a musical comedy.

Gordon MacRae does show his chest and nice pits in "About Face" which was on tv recently. He's fine, as is a very young Joel Grey (great dance moves), Eddie Bracke, Phyllis Kirk and Ethel Merman's Broadway "Mutual Admiration Society" duet partner, Virginia Gibson, though the movie would have been so much better with a reasonably tuneful score. Plus Dick Wesson is not at all as funny and wonderful as he apparently has been directed to believe. The last dance number is quite good though, again, but the score is pretty blah.

Eddie Bracken, that is -- nice singing voice, too

So how much longer does The Visitor have?

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 2011, "Venus in Fur" opened at the Samuel J. Friedman Theatre.

Saying that Monroe couldn't do the Fosse moves and that her moves would have been "minimized" are basically the same thing. Either way, the movie would have suffered if Lola wasn't a superb dancer.

Not with Marilyn it wouldn't, r339.

Carol Channing made her name as Lorelei in GENTLEMEN PREFER BLONDES, but the movie went to Marilyn, who gave a completely different performance, one that has become iconic. I think the same thing would have happened had she gotten to play Lola. It wouldn't have been a dance role like the stage show, but she would have worked perfectly as the character. When I saw the movie as a child, I couldn't understand why the not very attractive woman was called the most beautiful desirable woman in the world. That said, as an adult, I am so happy and grateful that Gwen's iconic stage performance was captured for all time.

Totally agree with you, r341. The voice of sanity and good taste.

Any advance word on the film adaptation of "Tick Tick ... Boom!"? I'm much looking forward to seeing it.

Surprisingly little. I sense it’s a disappointment.

Legs Akimbo: The Chad Kimball Story!

R343 Surprised it hasn't leaked early. Every other musical this year has.

I've heard Chad tended to leak early.

I’ll be NYC on Saturday. What show should I see? I want decent seats and otherwise am flexible. On or off Bway, musical or play.

I’ve seen Moulin Rouge (hated it), Hadestown, Caroline or Change and Company (both in London).

I was thinking of Flying Over Sunset (which I know nothing about) or Girl from North Country. Lehman Trilogy doesn’t have decent seats available.

TIA

Isn't Flying Over Sunset directed by James Lapine?

I saw "Girl From the North Country" a few days before the theaters shut down. I liked it a lot, but went in without expectations. I saw "Company" the day before. I was underwhelmed.

I have a friend who's ushering at Company. She loves the show but doesn't think much of the production.

R341 Gwen was perfectly attractive and had a great figure. Haters begone.

I am not a hater, r352. I'm just saying what I felt as a 7 year old. I love Gwen Verdon, and consider myself lucky I saw her in a couple of shows.

[quote]Gwen was perfectly attractive and had a great figure. Haters begone.

Haters? Are you 12 years old?

That's what I see the folks on twitter saying. So, sue me for age appropriation, too, miss hissyfit.

Cynthia Erivo *is* Lola in Damn Yankee! an aunty-bellum story.

She'd accuse them of cultural appropriation since Lola does at one point masquerade as a Miss West Indies when she does the scene where she does "Whatever Lola Wants", even though she's putting on a big act of attempted seduction in the locker room.

Hasn't anyone noticed that Cynthia Erivo is maybe a B- film actor? Her Aretha was boring; her Tubman tedious.

There were some actually really good actors in B films. Good acting is good acting, same with bad acting. It's mainly the lower budgets that made films be called B and usually shorter in length, as many times they were 2nd on the bill in double features.

R348, I hear the ASSASSINS revival is good. Hard to get a ticket, though, I also hear.

r348, your taste sounds similar to mine so therefore I'm highly recommending THE LEHMAN TRILOGY to you. I saw it at The Armory - one of the smartest and best acted shows I've ever seen in my life.

Hadn't Marilyn Monroe fulfilled her Fox contract by 1957 when Damn Yankees was filmed? I think she would have been fabulous as Lola and really shaken up that film, which is honestly kind of dreary and stage-bound.

The Lehman Trilogy is full of stale gas. Massive bore.

Must confess that I saw the video capture of the UK production of LEHMAN TRILOGY.... and was also bored senseless. (The set was cool, at least.) Why should we care about that family and that story?

I know I'm in the minority, though.

R359, that's one off the reasons I love watching reruns of the original Perry Mason. The producer, I forget her name, had been active in the business since the early 1930s and knew absolutely everybody. She filled the show with some of the very best character actors in the business in the smaller parts.

LEHMAN is fantastic, a multi-generational epic with three bravura performances and a stunning set. Don’t listen to the dolts…

...and easily a half-hour too long.

I like Dick Wesson in “Calamity Jane.” I think that’s the only thing I’ve ever seen him in.

He had Wessonality.

Marilyn Monroe was never up for the movie version of “Yankees.” She was “mentioned” for the original play, and her agent was approached, and that was that.

Gaynor and Jeanmaire were both offered the role outright, but each turned it down. Gwen was fourth in line.

There is an excellent documentary on damn Yankees on YouTube. It discusses both stage and the film versions with an emphasis on the film. People who were in both versions discuss it. I highly recommend it. Stanley Donen said Gwen was ugly and she was deeply hurt by that. She was a powerhouse on Broadway but for some reason film audiences did not respond to her. As attractive as she was she came across like Chita on film where the face was a bit too hard.

[quote] Marilyn Monroe was never up for the movie version of “Yankees.” She was “mentioned” for the original play, and her agent was approached, and that was that.

Adler and many others have discussed publicly that the part was written for her but she kept telling Abbot, Prince and the other producers she wanted to do it but somehow just couldn't get around to signing a contract. And Fox probably would have let her sign a six month contract for publicity purposes and securing the film rights, although one or two years was the usual commitment.

Gaynor and Jeanmaire auditioned heavily for the part. I can't imagine why either would have turned it down. Gaynor, especially, was a name but not a star at that point. The was before Les Girls and South Pacific.

^ This was, not the was. Whatever.

Lots of parts are written for people who never play them. However, most writers do not go public with it. DY being written with Monroe in mind and One Touch of Venus being written for Dietrich are the only two golden age musicals I can think of where we know this stuff.

Erivo has a big voice and a good smile. Plus two earnest and determined expressions and an acceptable American accent, especially Southern, and a crap attitude. End of story.

r371 you got maybe a link?

Sorry it's not really a doc but 15 minutes of interviews. I'm inept at doing links.

Look up on youtube-

Damn Yankees-Outtakes from Tab Hunter Confidential

here you go r378

get some skills please, it's not difficult. There's a "share" menu

Rae Allen is still with us!

Rae Allen was also in The Pajama Game on Broadway but, like Janis Paige, didn't make the cut for the film version. Rae was replaced by DL Fave Barbara Nichols.

I was gonna say....what the hell was Mitzi Gaynor up to that she would have EVER turned down the role of Lola in the DY film??

Who is (was?) Dick Wesson and why is getting mentions in this thread? Is he the cute fellow in the Janis Paige Silk Stockings link?

Who is a better choice for Wicked than Errivo? Seriously, I can’t come up with anyone and I’m not a fan of hers.

One would have hoped that WICKED was a popular enough brand name in itself that a film could succeed with two young unknowns in the leads. Now, that could really be exciting. Can you imagine casting based on talent and charisma alone?

Though with that director attached, I'm not sure Wicked the film will have much chance at being very good no matter who plays the leads.

Dick Wesson is alright in "Calamity Jane" as the guy who they get to go in drag, but he's not very good as one of Gordon MacRae's classmates pursuing the second female lead in the musical version of 'Brother Rate" called "About Face" taking place in military school. Wesson just isn't funny or charming as required there. Joel Grey was really very good, and he's about 20 in that film. Musical needed a better score though.

Marilyn? 8 shows a week? I think not.

Marilyn doing 1 show a week? Maybe. But she'd keep the audience waiting 8 hours.

[quote] Mitzi Gaynor up to that she would have EVER turned down the role of Lola in the DY film??

For fuck’s sake, NOT the movie! Monroe was mentioned, & her agent approached, for the original play. She never responded, and there was no definite offer. In the meantime, the decision had been made that Lola needed to be a dancer. Mitzi Gaynor was offered the part, she did NOT audition. She was already committed to filming Anything Goes (with a new plot) which was scheduled to start shooting in April ‘55, exactly when DY would be on its out of town tryout. (Plus she wasn’t interested in going to Broadway at that point.) Feelers went out to Zizi Jeanmaire, but she had the same commitment (to Anything Goes) that Mitzi had, so it would’ve been impossible. That’s when Gwen was offered the part. She didn’t audition either, though she did do “work sessions” with Bob Fosse to make sure they could work together.

[quote] Can you imagine casting based on talent and charisma alone?

Yes. Cynthia Erivo. She is not quite a movie star yet so that was not a decision based on box office appeal. I thought she was brilliant in “Harriet,” and obviously enough industry folk agreed to score her an Oscar nomination for Best Actress.

Judging from social media, Erivo’s casting has been welcomed by the public.

I don't give a fuck about Cynthia's personal life and opinions, but she gave one of the best performances I've ever seen on Broadway, and I've lived here 30 years, and see a lot of theater.

I hate Cynthia. I won't see the movie because she's in it. Don't care for Grande either.

"Hate" Cynthia? A little strong, don't you think? Take your meds...

Take YOUR meds. I hate you, too.

R364, hmmm....why would someone be interested in people who had control over the fates of businesses and nations? That would be like being interested in American presidents, British royalty, and other crap like that.

For me the scene in Lehman where they recount the Civil War in terms of profits and losses was worth the price of admission. I really felt the inhumanity of how finance views humanity.

shouldn't they be wearing masks on the subway?

Shouldn't *who* be wearing masks on the subway?

I know nothing of economics and finance and thought I cared even less, and yet I was riveted by The Lehman Trilogy. It's truly the magic of live theater where three character actors play at least a dozen roles each (probably more) of all ages and gender over a hundred year history with no costume changes (all 3 are dressed in simple Victorian frock coat ensembles). Magnificent ultra-modern minimalist plexiglass cube of a set but, honestly, the show doesn't really even need it, it could be on a bare stage. I saw it at The Armory, didn't see the filmed version.....but this needs to be seen live.

Magical acting and whip smart direction by Sam Mendes. That Mendes no longer directs much theater is truly theater's tragic loss.

I'm just disappointed they didn't cast the Beaner as Elphaba.

[quote]Shouldn't *who* be wearing masks on the subway?

I'm thinking the stinky linky at r398 might have been this. r399?

Sure, as if actors would cover up their faces for a spot advertising Broadway.

R393 doesn’t like mouthy black women. He probably doesn’t like ANY black women.

I take meds and still hate humanity.

Have you tried Compoz, r405?

Slave Play has earmarked a 'Black Out' performance, wherein only black audience members are invited to intend so they can "experience and discuss the play free from the white gaze." That's in the official press release. What in the actual fuck is going on in 2021. This is regressive, divisive bullshit. Of course that woke loon Singapore/Fling is having a field day shutting down everyone with an opinion that doesn't follow this scripture.

Yes, it's one performance, but that's the not even the point. It's building a case that somehow we're in 1965 again. Unreal.

R407 Will there be a separate, but equal all white audience performance be offered?

I'm amazed they are still going through with this return engagement.

Having trouble with link

[quote][R407] Will there be a separate, but equal all white audience performance be offered?

Oh honey, just wait until PLAZA SUITE starts previews....

Singapore/Fling is an absolute ass, a brainwashed woke person who teaches theater, and I pity his students who he is in turn probably trying to spread his acquired white guilt, which he probably assuages by being pounded by his most likely even more aggressively physically and wokefully in political African-American partner and posting endlessly on his same bullcrap.

R411 That's be de facto, not de juris segregation.

I'd rather see a Thomas Bradshaw play with all his sensational but ecumenical nudity and sexual situations any day than by the author of "Slave Play". Some of Bradshaw's writing is actually very good.

And it's de jure, not de juris segregation, r413.

What show is represented by the lady in the black beaded number sitting down front in that Broadway on the MTA ad? Is that Chicago? Moulin Rouge?? Diana???

R416-You could try reading the credits under the photo.

Why don't they just make the whites sit in the balcony?

I'm from Guatemala and I think that white liberals are the greatest danger to American cinema and its culture. Many of us here in Central America have felt sad about how Hollywood has lowered its standards to keep up with 'woke' demands.

Cindy Williams to Tour With Solo Show "Me, Myself & Shirley":

I mean that whites are in charge, but of course they give the reigns mainly to black folks because of their white guilt. Black people are just not good leaders. Every time they tried to take control they've failed.

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 2006, a revival of "Les Misérables" opened at the Broadhurst Theatre.

R419

"audiences are invited to intend"?

Oh dear.

Saw ASSASSINS. Had high hopes, but was disappointed. Doyle can't overcome the show's flaws and the damn strolling musicians just get in the way.

Were the chorus girls comely, r425?

Especially in the Las Vegas tap number to the Ballad of Booth

Ah yes, the "WHITE GAZE" This really is regressive insanity.

[quote]she did do “work sessions” with Bob Fosse to make sure they could work together.

Fosse and Verdon knew each other well and had worked together many times at that that point. The film of Kiss Me Kate. Her comfortable relationship with him is undoubtedly why she got cast.

And now you're going to say Verdon wasn't in Kiss Me, Kate. Who do you think was in the studio basement with Carol Haney dubbing the taps? Same with Lana Turner's The Merry Widow, although Verdon actually appeared onscreen as a Maxim's Can-Can girl in that one.

And BTW, the real Maxim's didn't have Can-Can girls.

Which gets us into two other threads that are ongoing now, the best film version of The Merry Widow: Jeanette MacDonald with Chevalier, 1934, MGM, directed by Lubitsch.

And let's not get into the correct spelling of can can either.

Has anyone seen Morning’s at Seven?

Assassins has a huge book problem. The idea is great and the songs are good and the characters are fascinating but the book is just clunky. The show is really just a bunch of one acts weirdly strung together.

[quote]The show is really just a bunch of one acts weirdly strung together.

So is Company. Originally 11 short one act plays intended for a single evening's entertainment, director Anthony Perkins took it to his then boyfriend Stephen Sondheim for hhs opinion. Sondheim took it to Hal Prince. Perkins, who could sing, was originally announced as Bobby but he got bored with everyone else appropriating his project and dropped out.

[quote]Fosse and Verdon knew each other well and had worked together many times at that that point. The film of Kiss Me Kate. Her comfortable relationship with him is undoubtedly why she got cast. And now you're going to say Verdon wasn't in Kiss Me, Kate. Who do you think was in the studio basement with Carol Haney dubbing the taps?

R429, honey, you're about as accurate here as you were when you insisted Mitzi and Zizi "auditioned hard" for Damn Yankees (which they didn't because both were already committed to the conflicting schedule of the Anything Goes "remake.") Fosse and Verdon did not know each other well prior to Yankees, nor had they worked together. Check out Sam Wasson's "Fosse" for the scoop on their meeting and work sessions. (A version of which was recreated for "Fosse/Verdon"). Verdon was signed before Fosse was definitely set.

And Verdon wasn't "in the basement" recording taps on Kiss Me Kate, which was filmed in the late winter/early spring of 1953. Where was Gwen at that exact time? She was rehearsing Can-Can for five weeks, then she traveled with the company to Philadelphia for a six-week tryout, then back to NY for the May 7 opening at the Shubert. Can-Can was a BIG break for her, an actual role with a couple of show stopping dances, and it occupied her for all of 1953.

[quote] Has anyone seen Morning’s at Seven?

Yes, it’s charming. It’s got a really good cast and I thought it was almost as good as the production I saw on Broadway in the 80s. Patty McCormick, the original Rhoda from The Bad Seed, was my favorite.

Does most of the cast end up dead at the final curtain?

yes but not intentionally .

Follow up question:

Does most of the audience end up dead at the final curtain?

The first few by "Silence your cell phones," the rest by intermission. Generally no pulses still chugging by bows.

Doesn't it seem odd that the producers of the stage Damn Yankees offered Lola to Marilyn Monroe? You can be unreliable, late, etc. in Hollywood, because the movie doesn't "go on" till it's all shot and edited, but a stage show goes on at a certain time eight times a week. Monroe would never have kept to that schedule.

Moreover, Gwen Verdon had scored a big hit in Can-Can the year before. She was ready for a star part, and Lola would be ideal for her. Wouldn't Brisson, Griffith, and Prince have wanted her from the start? Or did Hal Prince think she was Bernadette Peters?

If Damn Yankees was being put together in 1953, it was the same year that MM appeared in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, Niagara and How to Marry a Millionaire, with River of No Return and There's No Business Like Show Business on the near horizon, arguably the most successful year and a half in her career. I don't find it unreasonable to imagine any producer offering her anything, especially as the rumors of her unreliability hadn't fully surfaced yet.

Granted, it may have only been brief wishful thinking to hope that Fox would allow her out of her contract or that she'd even have an interest in appearing on Broadway, but a producer can dream, can't he? Plus, the gossip of an offer would have been sensational publicity for the show even if it was never likely. Not unlike rumors of Gaga starring in Funny Girl on Broadway and you all know where that lead......

Where r440?

R400, I felt the same way. I would never read a biography of the family and know nothing of finance. But that production made it all so clear and fascinating.

The MTA has released a behind-the-scenes look at their new Broadway ad campaign:

How about lowering the prices for straphangers then? Have you seen some of the prices they are asking for tickets for shows? Incredible!

Where’s Patti in that ad? Couldn’t they convince her to take public transportation?

How could Damn Yankees have been put together in '53 when Pajama Game wasn't even until '54?

That's cute that some think people who can afford Bway tickets actually ride the subway. As if.

That's cute that some think people who actually ride the subway can afford Bway tickets. As if.

Mr. Saturday Night sounds like Honeymoon in Vegas redux. Even the same theater. Thoughts?

I'd rather hear the opinion of anyone who saw Billy's show up at Barrington last month.

R445, I hear they tried to CGI Patti from her basement but she told them to fuck off.

Jason robert Brown didn't know where to put any of the songs in Honeymoon in Vegas and now that he's working wtih the screenwriters of Saturday Night, who are problaby just putting their screenplay on stage, it doesn't bode well

[quote] How could Damn Yankees have been put together in '53 when Pajama Game wasn't even until '54?

It wasn’t. The only person who suggested as much was r440, who appears to suffer from reading comprehension. The prior post clearly stated that CAN-CAN was the show that occupied all of Verdon’s 1953, not Yankees. Yankees entered the creation pipeline after Pajama Game opened in May, 1954, almost exactly a year before Yankees would open. May ‘54 was also when Monroe began shooting “There’s No business like…” which kept her occupied through August of that year.

Any word of who tested positive in Chicken And Biscuits?

Performing 8 times a week, in that underground theatre/deathtrap? Ventilation spotty at best. Just because the AC is on, doesn't mean you're not breathing recirculated air.

I've never seen the film MR. SATURDAY NIGHT but can anyone explain to me why it might make a great Broadway musical starring a 75 year old Billy Crystal?

You know, I think Gaga in Funny Girl could be great.

Premieres tonight at the AFI Fest in L.A., so expect reviews to drop shortly.

But based on this clip, I'm in.

R432, how did you get your head so completely up your ass? Your entire narrative is false.

Thanks, R457. I'm really looking forward to seeing it.

[quote]Singapore/Fling is an absolute ass, a brainwashed woke person who teaches theater, and I pity his students who he is in turn probably trying to spread his acquired white guilt, which he probably assuages by being pounded by his most likely even more aggressively physically and wokefully in political African-American partner and posting endlessly on his same bullcrap.

And that's putting it kindly :-)

[quote][R432], how did you get your head so completely up your ass? Your entire narrative is false.

Sorry, R458, but R432's post is exactly what I've always read about the genesis of COMPANY. So fuck off.

I'd like to hear confirmation, not just rumor, that Sondheim and Perkins were "boyfriends."

Who would you like to hear confirmation from, R461--Sondheim? Don't be stupid, please. Whether or not they were, that Company story is ridiculous. The plays were George Furth's, on whose behalf Sondheim took them to Prince. Perkins was briefly slated for the role of Robert, but he backed out early on in favor of directing Steambath.

Really, 460? I would like to see a citation to anything in print suggesting that R432's story is accurate.

ok you two take it elsewhere away from us please.

Heads will be 'sploding on DL if this article pans out.

I would so love to see Robin de Jesus get nominated if, as the article suggests, the film makes a great showing at the Oscars. He's such a talented guy who has deserved a lot more work and attention than he's received over the years.

Sorry, R463. The main points of the post -- about COMPANY starting off as one-act plays written by Furth, and about Perkins having been discussed to star in the musical -- is accurate. But I'm not sure if Sondheim and Perkins were ever boyfriends, and of course, Perkins is not primarily known as a director.

R462's version is the same as what Sondheim says on the commentary of Original Cast Album: Company.

R465 Seems unlikely given most other talk about it have mentioned how they don't think it's an awards contender, as if it were they would've expected it to have been screened a lot more by now.

It [italic]has[/italic] been screened R468 but the reviews were embargoed until yesterday's premiere. There is plenty of talk suddenly about Garfield, especially since this has not been a particularly strong year for actors (so far).

Everyone knows Ben Platt is the front runner for a best actor Oscar.

What am I. chopped liver?

At best Ansel.

I'm sure TTB getting raves and being instantly moved to the head of the Oscar pack won't sit well with those who still have LMM/Hamilton fatigue and fear he will yet again be inescapable come awards season.

Will SOMEONE PLEASE think of those with LMM fatigue!

How does Papi Esparza feel about TTB?

THR's review, while not negative, is a little less glowing:

"Chicken & Biscuits" has posted a closing notice for November 28.

Link:

BALLROOM

"You'll come out liking yourself better..."

I came out liking myself better, but hating Dorothy Louden, who put the ham in overacting.

I heard she gave an understated, non-gimmicky performance, rr481.

She did, R482. I'm afraid R481 is just being a nasty bitch. I guess it comes naturally.

Of course it comes naturally, r483, just like it does for you and all the other bitches on this thread.

Not everyone loved Louden. Who cares?

R484, obviously you don't care enough to even spell her name right, you lame brain. Would I be correct in guessing that you didn't even see BALLROOM?

Georgie don't seem so tough now, does he...

Oh, excuse ME, your cuntiness, LOUDON. Yeah, I saw Ballroom. I saw it once at Stratford, and once on Broadway a couple of weeks before it closed.

Later I saw it in Long Beach, with Tyne Daly, who was fabulous acting-wise (better than Loudon), but not strong vocally. And I repeat: why are you so invested in what people think of Loudon? There’s not a performer alive who doesn’t have detractors.

I've always wondered if Bea Arthur in Ballroom could have at least kept the show open for a season.

If Dolores couldn't dance it, could Bea?

[quote]Why are you so invested in what people think of Loudon?

Not "so invested," just very surprised that you described her performance in BALLROOM, of all shows, as "hammy."

Jesse Green's review for "Trevor":

Saw the first preview of FLYING OVER SUNSET. The very definition of the Why? musical. Of course it got a standing O.

[quote] The filmmakers use a staged performance of Tick, Tick … Boom!, with Jon leading a small electric band in a selection of songs, to frame the central narrative,

It's such a lazy cop-out to put every musical in a 'framing device' to justify its being a musical. There is this (corporate?) presumption that audiences won't accept a musical if you don't provide a reason but how do they know it's true? Just do the damn musical. Is West Side Story going to have a 'framing device' where it all takes place in the high school theater department or something?

r 474 you're out of luck

[quote] Miranda handles his directorial role [bold](and a brief cameo)[/bold] with assured professionalism

Of course LMM just couldn't resist getting in front of that camera

Vincent Gardenia gave a lovely performance in Ballroom. So touching and heartfelt.

[quote]Saw the first preview of FLYING OVER SUNSET. The very definition of the Why? musical.

Can you explain why you consider this a "why?" musical? That whole concept has never made sense to me, seeing how I'm sure all of us could think of many shows that might have been thought of ahead of time as "why" musicals -- until they were so well written (and produced) that they became successful and beloved.

It's a Hitchcock thing, r494.

A “why” musical is a story that is better told without the characters breaking into song.

King Kong is such a story. It would have worked so much better as a play than a musical. Everyone but the producers knew that at the time, and we’re proven right.

Just because you can’t figure out how to musicalize something doesn’t make it a “why” musical. We may not have known how Sondheim was going to musicalize Sweeney, but very few doubted he could do it.

[quote]...until they were so well written (and produced) that they became successful and beloved.

Example, r496?

I think it's also where a story line isn't particularly compelling with 𝙤𝙧 without music, r498.

R499, MY FAIR LADY is perhaps the supreme example of what might have been thought of as a "why?" musical (before it was actually written), seeing as how PYGMALION has always been considered a great play that certainly didn't "need" to be turned into a musical. But then, Lerner and Loewe actually wrote the musical, and the rest is history.

There are SO many other obvious examples of so-called "why?" musicals that turned out to be classics, I really don't think I need to list any more.

A musical based on the play, PYGMALION might have been a "why" musical, but they based it on the screenplay, which was perfect source material. (though they didn't actually say that's what they did.)

[quote]There are SO many other obvious examples of so-called "why?" musicals that turned out to be classics

If they turn out to be a classic, r501, they cease to be a why? musical. The unsuccessful finished product is actually the why? musical.

Very little by James Lapine sans Sondheim will ever be considered a classic.

Lapine likes the homosex, right? And is the wife is a beard?

Lapine likes the weed

Nicole has such amiability...

Funny Girl with Beanie is a 'why' musical.

Funny Girl (without Barbra) is a 'why' musical.

Sheeeee-it. Tommy Tune was high all through Nine rehearsals.

J. Lapine is no Tommy Tune, and it's obvious.

Mimi made Funny Girl a why not musical. Honestly how many of us on these theater threads would not have wanted to see that?

[quote]A musical based on the play, PYGMALION might have been a "why" musical, but they based it on the screenplay, which was perfect source material. (though they didn't actually say that's what they did.)

That's an odd comment, as the screenplay of the film of PYGMALION was taken probably about 90 percent word for word from the play script, with some edits and additions that were fairly minor (except the change of the ending, which was major).

[quote]If they turn out to be a classic, [R501], they cease to be a why? musical. The unsuccessful finished product is actually the why? musical.

Well, I've never heard that interpretation of the meaning of the phrase. To me, the point is that any musical that turned out to be a "why?" musical could presumably have been a classic if it had been better written. For example, I think both Mary Rodgers and Sondheim have identified DO I HEAR A WALTZ? as a "why?" musical, but even if you don't like the way that one turned out, there's no reason at all why that story couldn't have provided the basis for a great musical.

SUNSET is for me a WHY? musical because in this case the story is not enhanced in any way by the music. And the story itself is something I care nothing about and suspect others will agree. This was the first preview, so I'll wait till others can weigh in before getting into specifics.

We would have rather seen Angie in MAME, r511.

What about Cuckoo cries out for it to be musicalized, r512? It isn't a *great* play, why would it have the potential to be a great musical?

THIS DAY IN BROADWAY HISTORY: In 1989, "Grand Hotel" opened at the Martin Beck Theatre.

The thing about Grand Hotel...

Another criterion is, Does musicalizing a property make it better? Many think My Fair Lady does not improve Pygmalion.

Now when you watch Pygmalion the music runs through your head. MFL is so much more popular than the play.

It's so much more entertaining and emotionally powerful.

[quote]SUNSET is for me a WHY? musical because in this case the story is not enhanced in any way by the music. And the story itself is something I care nothing about and suspect others will agree. This was the first preview, so I'll wait till others can weigh in before getting into specifics.

Your post was very confusing to me, because at first I thought you meant SUNSET BLVD :-)

[quote]What about Cuckoo cries out for it to be musicalized, [R512]? It isn't a *great* play, why would it have the potential to be a great musical?

There's a lot of ignorance in your comment, because first of all, it has often been said that the kind of plays that tend to make great musicals are NOT perfect or classics in themselves, but rather, plays that might be most improved by the addition of music and lyrics. And as for your other point, did PYGMALION or GREEN GROW THE LILACS or THE MATCHMAKER "cry out" to be musicalized?

[quote]Another criterion is, Does musicalizing a property make it better? Many think My Fair Lady does not improve Pygmalion.

This may be the single stupidest comment ever posted on DataLounge, and that is QUITE an achievement.....

"Do I Hear a Waltz" is the premier "Why" musical? Second place: "Woman of the Year"

[quote]"Do I Hear a Waltz" is the premier "Why" musical.

Just because Sondheim and Mary Rodgers say this doesn't mean everyone has to agree with them.

Making a musical of Woman of the Year for Betty makes perfect sense, r521.

A lonely woman finding romance then heartbreak then acceptance in Venice seems a great idea for a musical.

They should have based it on the Lean film. It was awful at encores.

No wonder Rodgers ended up hating Sondheim and Laurent's. He was right.

I'm not r512 but I can easily see the temptation to musicalize DO I HEAR A WALTZ, the story of a lonely but whip-smart spinster school teacher who travels to Venice alone and is briefly romanced by a charming handsome Italian swain. And there are several secondary characters of various ages who are going through their own romantic misadventures.

The original musical set it in the present time as it was too close to THE TIME OF THE CUCKOO's 1950s setting to be worth a change. But I think the piece would have been enhanced by setting it further back in time to, say, the early 1930s to further romanticize it with prettier old world costuming and sensibilities. Sorry if I'm ignorant of something in the story that insists it needs to be set in the 50s or 60s.

R523, exactly. WOMAN OF THE YEAR may not be the most brilliant musical ever written, but neither is it a "why?" musical. Some people just paste that label on any show they don't like.

Laurent's what r524?

I also think WOMAN OF TGHE YEAR would have been a lot more fun if it had been set in the early 1940s like the film. I wonder if that was considered and can't imagine why it was rejected.

Yet, I think setting APPLAUSE in the contemporary theater world of 1970 was the right decision. No need for further comparisons to the iconic ALL ABOUT EVE.

This is a great discussion!

[quote]Sorry if I'm ignorant of something in the story that insists it needs to be set in the 50s or 60s.

I don't think it "needs" to be set in the 1950s or '60s, but I don't understand why you feel a romantic story can't be set in Venice during that time period.

Oh, there is the number about plane travel, so that would have had to be cut if the time period was moved back to the early '30s.

r529, it's not that I think it necessarily "needs" to be set in an earlier period, I just think it would have helped remove the story from the everyday life of the mid-60s in the original production.

If produced now, I'd still set it no later than the 1950s like the original play (and film) because I just think the 50s can be more romanticized in clothes, hairstyles and settings. And an ocean liner trip to Venice could be much more interesting than a plane ride if it had to be staged (sorry, don't know the show very well).

That's just my aesthetic though.

I guess I see your point, R530, but I would say that any story set in Venice pretty much anytime is quite far removed from everyday life. Unless you're living your everyday life in Venice :-)

We opened in Venice

Cuckoo is a small romantic soap opera. It could never be a big Broadway musical because its plot and characters wouldn't support that. How many small chamber musicals have been successful on Broadway? There's three reasons Summertime elevated the material...Lean, Kate, and the location shooting.

Everybody wanted to see Angie in Mame in '66. But us DLers would have wanted to see Mimi in FG as well.

Didn't Hines keep the show running for as long as Streisand was in it?

Then they could have gotten Janis Paige or Celeste Holm.

Nonsense, R533. There's nothing about that play that works against it becoming a good musical, and Rodgers, Sondheim, and Laurents did a pretty good job of it for the most part, despite a few missteps.

But what are the long-running SMALL CAST musicals of The Golden Age?

Were there really any chamber musicals hits? I can only think of I Do! I Do! but that had 2 MAJOR stars.

If Rodgers, Sondheim and Laurents couldn't make a hit of it, r536, who could?

r537, I was just going to post you could get away with I Do! I Do! if you had Martin and Preston. They played one year. After they left, Carol and Gordon stretched it out for six more months.

Were there other infamous attempts at chamber musicals on Broadway pre-1980s? What was the first Broadway musical hit that didn't have a chorus ensemble (besides I Do! I Do!)?

That's the thing, r540. With Broadway prices people want spectacle, splash...

Sorry Charlotte, we're gonna have to cut...

Seems like there's been so many "Why?" musicals in the last 20 or so years. All those movies unnecessarily musicalized.

Well, they need to be based on something.

But please, no more 80s and 90s movies......

Well, the painting thing's been done.

Not until Paek and Paul bring us 'Vermeer! The Golden Age of Dutch Painting Musical'

Isn't LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA a chamber musical?

I believe so, r548. And wasn't the last Night Music performed as one?

The British musical Songbook, done on Broadway in the early 80s as The Moony Shapiro Songbook, was a chamber musical.

Could Starlight Express be performed as a chamber musical?

Chamber musicals ain't got no gams!

Actually, doesn’t Oh, Calcutta count as a chamber musical? In which case, it had gams, dicks, and vag.

Wouldn’t She Loves Me count as a chamber musical?

It didn't have gams, r554, so yes.

It feels like one, r554, but it always needs some chorus for the cafe scene and Twelve Days to Christmas, and three extra women for Sound While Selling.

The only blockbuster chamber opera I can think of is Chorus Line.

Hello Megan! Buh-bye Jane.

[quote]What was the first Broadway musical hit that didn't have a chorus ensemble (besides I Do! I Do!)?

CARNIVAL, STOP THE WORLD... and THE ROAR OF THE GREASEPAINT. Not had tremendously long runs, but certainly respectable. Also SHE LOVES ME and THE APPLE TREE weren't hits but weren't really flops either.

Didn't The Apple Tree have a chorus for the third act?

Also for the second act, r560. “Make way! Princess Barbara!”

[quote] What was the first Broadway musical hit that didn't have a chorus ensemble (besides I Do! I Do!)? CARNIVAL, STOP THE WORLD... and THE ROAR OF THE GREASEPAINT.

Carnival not only has a chorus with plenty to do, but they had a cast of almost 50 originally. Stop the World has eight women specifically identified as the Chorus. Road of the greasepaint has a group of “urchins,” children and teens who serve as chorus.

Sorry r520, I think we have TWO candidates for stupidest comment ever

[quote] Another criterion is, Does musicalizing a property make it better? Many think My Fair Lady does not improve Pygmalion.

as well as

[quote] It isn't a *great* play, why would it have the potential to be a great musical?

R512, My Fair Lady keeps almost all the same cuts and additions that the screen play does.

If you read the play, the screenplay (or see the film) and then My Fair Lady, it is very clear that the film is the film's source more than the orginal play.

I had to do just that as a research assistant on a book project a long time ago, and I cannot remember anything from the play that is not in the film, that made it into the musical.

Hilty will be best singing, worst dancing Lily ever!

[quote]If you read the play, the screenplay (or see the film) and then My Fair Lady, it is very clear that the film is the film's source more than the orginal play.

I'm well aware of that, but the fact remains that the vast majority of the screenplay dialogue of the PYGMALION film was taken directly from the play. And, for that matter, quite a huge percentage of the dialogue in MY FAIR LADY may be found almost verbatim in the PYGMALION play and film. That was my point.

Which makes it all the more remarkable that the songs were woven seamlessly into the dialogue.

"Pygmalion" doesn't show Eliza's learning process. There's no dramatic equivalent to the "Rain in Spain" scene.

Exactly, R568.

Shaw biographers as well as scholars are in pretty much universal agreement that the musical derives from the film. R566 is arguing for the sake of arguing.

Once again, we have proof that problems with reading comprehension are rampant in the world today. I completely agree that the musical MY FAIR LADY derives directly from the film adaptation of PYGMALION far more than from the stage script, and I NEVER claimed otherwise. All I did was point out that a large percentage of the dialogue in MY FAIR LADY comes word-for-word from the stage play and/or the screenplay of PYGMALION, which is a related point but not quite the same.

The small speech that Higgin gives about how what Eliza has achieved matters before her entrance in the ball gown was written by Lerner and you can't even tell it's not Shaw unless it's pointed out to you.

[quote]It isn't a *great* play, why would it have the potential to be a great musical?

Why is that a stupid comment, r563?

R572, it's a stupid comment because, as I explained elsewhere, many successful creators of musicals follow the theory that it's better NOT to choose a play that's great in itself for musical adaptation, but rather, one that's lacking in some respects and might obviously be improved by adding songs. To use examples from the R&H canon, I would say LILIOM is considered a great play by many people, but GREEN GROW THE LILACS is not. And as for Sondheim, MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG is definitely not considered a great play, or even a very well known one.

This may have been mentioned earlier in the lengthy Pygmalion/MFL debate, but I always thought it was interesting that R&H couldn’t figure out how to adapt Pygmalion. I seem to recall reading that they thought it was too static.

Your know-it-all attitude is a bit much, r573. Granting your point, I should have just phrased my question, "What is it about Cuckoo that you think it could be a successful musical?". Again, if Rodgers, Sondheim and Laurents couldn't make a go of it, who could? Both Oklahoma and Carousel originated from vehicles (one lesser than the other) with period settings and some dark themes that added depth to basic love stories. How do you make lovelorn Leona's story more important or universal than it is?

Merrily was a flop, so I'm not sure what your point is with that.

When the composer despises the lyricist and the book writer the musical will not have a lot going for it. I think it's a great story for a musical but the heroine needs to be sympathetic like Hepburn in the movie. Even people who don't like Hepburn like her in that movie. Leona in the musical I saw at Encores was as unpleasant as they come. Like everyone else you want to get away from her as quickly as possible. Idiotic for a bittersweet romance.

Rodgers was right and he wrote half a wonderful score. And had he had more sympathetic collaborators it could have been a success. Dexter was no help. He was stoned in his room with his rent boys.

[quote]I think it's a great story for a musical

What about it do you think makes it a *great* story, r576?

The next time one of you supposed experts write a hit musical, let us know. Till then, I'll trust the pros.

A lonely aging American woman who has never had a romantic love finding romance in Venice. I guess you've never been there.

And, r579...he's 𝙢𝙖𝙧𝙧𝙞𝙚𝙙!!! It's a regular Greek tragedy, that's what it is. And you are correct, I've never been a lonely aging American woman who has never had a romantic love finding romance in Venice. Look, I'm not saying it isn't (or couldn't be) a nice little chamber piece in the canon, but it's not the stuff of a big Broadway musical success. The material doesn't (and didn't) support that.

Oh, why not...?

She’s so tiresome the way she fucks around with material.

Just back from Clyde’s. Best new play I’ve seen in years. Great performances from the whole cast of 5.

Did Uzo mug as badly as she did in OITNB?

Oh...

[quote] "What is it about Cuckoo that you think it could be a successful musical?". Again, if Rodgers, Sondheim and Laurents couldn't make a go of it, who could?

First of all, to repeat, I think they almost did make a go of it. In my opinion, most of DO I HEAR A WALTZ? works just fine, there were just a few unfortunate missteps that doomed it -- primarily, I would say, Laurents' insistence on using a sledgehammer to make it clear to the audience that Leona is sometimes very unpleasant to be around to her insecurities and her lack-of-trust issues.

[quote]Both Oklahoma and Carousel originated from vehicles (one lesser than the other) with period settings and some dark themes that added depth to basic love stories. How do you make lovelorn Leona's story more important or universal than it is?

Funny you mention OKLAHOMA! right before asking your question, because many people feel there's nothing very important about the plot of that show, and it's no more (or less) universal than any other show. I'm with those who think the story of a lovelorn, never-married, middle-aged American woman finding romance in Venice is an absolute natural for a musical -- or should have been.

[quote]Merrily was a flop, so I'm not sure what your point is with that.

It was a tremendous flop in its original production, but has been revived countless times since then, so many people obviously find the show very compelling. And anyway, I was just using MERRILY as one example of the many musicals that have been made out of less-than-great plays.

Oklahoma is ultimately about community and banding together to form a state, r586. The boy/girl plot and comic subplot are set against a broad landscape. The scope is bigger. Somebody dies. And it had a dream ballet...plenty of gams.

Oh, and, yes of course about Merrily. It'll never work, but people have a sentimental attachment to it.

Is anyone here familiar with THE TIME OF THE CUCKOO? Was Leona a more unpleasant character in the original play than Hepburn was portraying her in the film version SUMMERTIME?

I'm mainly curious about why Laurents felt the character worked better with unpleasant traits.

I remember there was a LCT production of TIME OF THE CUCKOO at The Newhouse starring Debra Monk (I think in the early 2000s) but I didn't see it. Anyone?

If I recall correctly, Shirley fought against making Leona unlikable (per Arthur).

So what was it with Arthur Laurents? Was he just a big old misogynist?

[quote]Oklahoma is ultimately about community and banding together to form a state

I've read that in Britain, "Oh! What a beautiful morning!" was read as the end of WWII. Not that Hammerstein intended that, but the show opened up a wide new sunlit world in the same way.

What's the use, Laura?

"What's the use of wondrin', if a jab is good or bad . . . "

So nobody's gonna start a new thread, huh? Don't make me put on Barbara Nichols.

Bajour!

A Charity for the Ages...

The film of “Summertime” was written by Gore Vidal, based on Laurents’ play. It doesn’t have the nasty tone of bitter aftertaste that Cuckoo has. And that’s what Rodgers fell in love with and wanted to turn into a musical. It was a shock when he realized how finally different “Cuckoo” was.

"Whoop-Up!"

[quote]And it had a dream ballet

Never met a dream ballet I couldn't sleep through.