It is absolutely stunning how quickly he went from on top of the world, to bankrupt, broken and in prison in such a short time. Heartbreaking and cautionary.
The downfall and end of Oscar Wilde
|by Anonymous||reply 149||October 30, 2021 10:07 AM|
Let that be a lesson to all witty cocksuckers!
|by Anonymous||reply 1||October 20, 2021 6:27 PM|
I know just how he must have felt.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||October 20, 2021 6:31 PM|
Bosie was the original bitchy bottom.
|by Anonymous||reply 3||October 20, 2021 6:31 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 4||October 20, 2021 6:32 PM|
What a fabulous mind i wish i had known him.
|by Anonymous||reply 5||October 20, 2021 6:33 PM|
The lesson is to not take up with pretty twinks who have daddy issues out the wazoo.
|by Anonymous||reply 6||October 20, 2021 6:37 PM|
It really is a tragic story; I imagine Wilde as someone like Stephen Fry (though clearly not so old & ugly), very charming & witty but also mentally ill & destructive
|by Anonymous||reply 7||October 20, 2021 6:57 PM|
No, the moral of the story is don’t sue someone for libel when they’re not actually lying about you.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||October 20, 2021 7:00 PM|
It worked for me!
|by Anonymous||reply 9||October 20, 2021 9:02 PM|
[quote]No, the moral of the story is don’t sue someone for libel when they’re not actually lying about you.
Yes, but you can kind of see the rationale: Wilde viewed himself as a celebrity, loved by the gentry and therefore untouchable, only to discover that didn't get him as far as he thought. He's an early cautionary tale about believing your own hype
|by Anonymous||reply 10||October 20, 2021 10:41 PM|
Not all that early.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||October 20, 2021 10:46 PM|
Victorians and Edwardians were largely a bunch of hypocrites on many levels.
Oscar Wilde's sin wasn't being gay. It was the scandal that followed from his legal and criminal justice woes that caused his downfall from society.
Something said in one British television drama about life of Oscar Wilde sums things up; "people can do anything long as it doesn't frighten the horses....."
Among upper classes far as Victorians and Edwardians were concerned it was more important that appearances be kept up. What happened in one's private life to some extent wasn't anyone's business.
Lord Risley in "Maurice" was an Oscar Wilde sort of character. His lifestyle or whatever wasn't exactly a problem until he was busted while cruising for gay sex. That brought public confirmation of his vices which of course meant he was no longer received. Society that once welcomed him shunned Lord Risley
Going by the ample amount of porn (including gay) we know what Victorians and Edwardians fancied. It just had to be kept under wraps.
John Saul scandal showed just how many men in highest reaches of British society were gay. That was one reason JS wasn't prosecuted, no one wanted to risk that lose cannon going off resulting in scores of men in highest positions (or adjacent to) suffering similar fate as Oscar Wilde.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||October 20, 2021 11:09 PM|
I recommend The Secret Life of Oscar Wilde for a no holds barred description of Oscar's sex life. He loved rough trade!
|by Anonymous||reply 13||October 20, 2021 11:16 PM|
[quote] Yes, but you can kind of see the rationale: Wilde viewed himself as a celebrity, loved by the gentry and therefore untouchable, only to discover that didn't get him as far as he thought. He's an early cautionary tale about believing your own hype
No, there no rationale! When you have love letters written to men and rent boys identified and witnesses ready to testify and ponce all over town with a green carnation, you can’t pull the old “I’m shocked, shocked!” excuse out of your drawers.
|by Anonymous||reply 14||October 20, 2021 11:33 PM|
[quote] I imagine Wilde as someone like Stephen Fry…
He wishes! Stephen Fry has not written a sentence nor given a performance of greatness. He’s a professional Englishman.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||October 20, 2021 11:36 PM|
Fry must have a third leg…doesn’t he have a really hot boyfriend?
|by Anonymous||reply 16||October 21, 2021 1:31 AM|
I remember watching Wilde and been surprised the wife didn't know. For some reason, I thought she would've been supportive.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||October 21, 2021 2:08 AM|
Stephen Fry has a much younger husband, but no one would consider him *hot*. Well besides the man he married anyway...
|by Anonymous||reply 18||October 21, 2021 2:50 AM|
More recent picture of the happy couple...
|by Anonymous||reply 19||October 21, 2021 2:51 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 20||October 21, 2021 2:52 AM|
Fuck you, OP. What's wrong with you?
|by Anonymous||reply 21||October 21, 2021 3:45 AM|
Wilde is overrated. He destroyed himself. He was a prisspot and a tremendous snob, his effeminate flowery language is embarrassing. He thought he was beyond reproach and too clever and witty to be put away. He was pathetic in his downfall and last years, he was also most probably a pedophile or a pederast at best.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||October 21, 2021 3:54 AM|
There was something in him that was rushing toward self-destruction with arms opened wide . . .
|by Anonymous||reply 23||October 21, 2021 5:55 AM|
Bosie claimed that he never bottomed for Oscar.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||October 21, 2021 6:46 AM|
How did that twink get a town in Idaho named after him?
|by Anonymous||reply 25||October 21, 2021 6:59 AM|
I just went to the hotel where he died "beyond his means" in June. Too bad it was closed. Beautiful little street near the Pont des Arts. The bitch had taste. I had a whole Oscar Wilde period in college. Got a LOT of good ass dressed and coifed sort of like that and this was the mid to late 1990's.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||October 21, 2021 11:04 AM|
[quote]he was also most probably a pedophile or a pederast at best
Pedophile and pederast are the same things.
There's no compelling evidence that he was a pedo; the ages of the boys in question have been generally established to have been 15 at the youngest.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||October 21, 2021 11:50 AM|
R27, one of the most damning things I've read about the Victorian era was that prostitution was hardly the worst way to earn a living, even if you were underaged.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||October 21, 2021 12:08 PM|
“There is only one thing worse in the world than being talked about, and that is, not being talked about.”
Trenchant, accurate and bitterly amusing.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||October 21, 2021 12:17 PM|
Apocryphal last words from his bed in Paris:
"Either that wallpaper goes or I do."
|by Anonymous||reply 30||October 21, 2021 12:24 PM|
This discussion made me want to check in our modern day dandy, the guy that dresses in period costume.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||October 21, 2021 12:32 PM|
“This wallpaper and I are fighting a duel to the death. Either it goes or I do.”
We're words Oscar Wilde said few weeks before dying. His actual last words were some mumbled bits of a Catholic prayer.
"However, according to the book "Oscar Wilde: The Unrepentant Years," he said this to a visiting friend a few weeks before he passed away in Paris in 1854."
|by Anonymous||reply 32||October 21, 2021 12:34 PM|
Nobody in the government and upper class wanted to prosecute him. The things that came out at the libel trial had been distastefully scandulous and disastrous enough. The prosecutor deliberately waited over two days to send the police to arrest him on the morals charge. That was more than enough time for for him to escape to the continent, which is what they hoped and expected him to do.
Instead, he CHOSE to remain and make a martyr out of himself.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||October 21, 2021 12:37 PM|
[quote]It's not whether you win or lose, it's how you place the blame.
Is effeminate flowery language to you?
|by Anonymous||reply 34||October 21, 2021 12:39 PM|
How on earth is it cautionary? He lived and died a hundred years ago. LOL. What's the warning... don't wear a green carnation with a pink cravat?
|by Anonymous||reply 35||October 21, 2021 12:44 PM|
He was a pervert, even I thought so
|by Anonymous||reply 36||October 21, 2021 1:02 PM|
Oscar Wilde didn't flee to France because he decided to bring legal action against Marquess of Queensberry (who left his calling card at Wilde's club addressed to “For Oscar Wilde, posing somdomite [sic]."
Apparently no one ever sat Oscar Wilde down and explained how libel laws work. You can't (or shouldn't) sue someone for slander or whatever if what they've said is true. Oscar Wilde was a homosexual, and he was messing about with the Marquess of Queensbury's son.
Worse Queensbury's defence team produced a number of witnesses who accused Wilde of soliciting young men/boys for sex...
After about three days of trial Wilde's lawyers withdrew their case, but by then it was too late. Queensbury's legal team pressed to have Oscar Wilde arrested for "gross indecency".
Again Wilde's friends and supporters urged him to flee, but the man would have none of it and decided to defend his name and reputation against criminal charges at trial. Stupid move, but there you are.
IMHO Wilde perhaps was thinking about not just his reputation but fact he was a married man with two children. To flee implies guilt, and where would that have left Mrs. Oscar Wilde and her children? So he took two legal gambles that both failed grandly.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||October 21, 2021 1:09 PM|
Cautionary, OP, only if you live in Victorian England in 1900. Luckily, we don't.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||October 21, 2021 1:12 PM|
Let's see your own literary equivalent to "The Importance of Beinf Ernest," R22. Overrated? Fuck outta here, you idiot. And he wasn't a pedo or a pedarast. You're full of shit in a few ways.
And R27, the two terms are not the same.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||October 21, 2021 1:16 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 40||October 21, 2021 1:16 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 41||October 21, 2021 1:19 PM|
He looked like Carnie Wilson.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||October 21, 2021 1:19 PM|
A 40 year old man who fucks 15 year olds is pretty much the definition of pederast R39.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||October 21, 2021 1:19 PM|
You said what I said, r37. There were two trials. First, Wilde's libel trial against the Marquess, where the Marquess produced solid evidence of Wilde's sodomy. Wilde should have been arrested immediately when he dropped the case. Instead, everyone just wanted the entire sordid business to go away and he was given a chance to flee. Instead, he perversely chose to stay and face trial for sodomy -- an incredibly stupid decision since evidence of his guilt was already there in the judicial record and there was virtually no chance of anything less than a guilty verdict and a sentence of hard labor.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||October 21, 2021 1:27 PM|
R37, all of his friends told him not to sue for libel; he was warned repeatedly. It was not a rational decision. His decision not to leave the country after the decision in the first trial also was irrational.
|by Anonymous||reply 45||October 21, 2021 1:36 PM|
R43, a pederast is defined as sex between a pubescent or adolescent boy. A 15-year-old is neither a a pubescent or adolescent but a teenager. Not the same thing, but go ahead and quibble.
R44, the "sordid business" you so prissily describe to Wilde's situation makes you sound like you're from 1895. It was a foolish decision he made but a brave one.
Are we actually retrying Wilde in 2021?
|by Anonymous||reply 46||October 21, 2021 1:37 PM|
"Are we actually retrying Wilde in 2021?"
On a gay site, no less.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||October 21, 2021 1:37 PM|
You have something better to do?
|by Anonymous||reply 48||October 21, 2021 1:38 PM|
"pederasty is defined as sex between a pubescent or adolescent boy."
|by Anonymous||reply 49||October 21, 2021 1:39 PM|
An adolescent is aged 10-19, R46.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||October 21, 2021 1:39 PM|
R48 misses the point.
|by Anonymous||reply 51||October 21, 2021 1:39 PM|
Btw, OP, Oscar Wilde's end (his life anyway) was just the beginning of a reappraisal of his art and life that continued all through the last century, until he was reestablished as the genius he was. His work lives on beyond his time and his torturers.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||October 21, 2021 1:42 PM|
Then what's a teenager, R46?
|by Anonymous||reply 53||October 21, 2021 1:42 PM|
R53 was for R50.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||October 21, 2021 1:43 PM|
R46 would have us believe a 17- or 18- or 19-year old is an adolescent.
|by Anonymous||reply 55||October 21, 2021 1:43 PM|
R50 would have us believe a 17- or 18- or 19-year old is an adolescent.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||October 21, 2021 1:44 PM|
Nevertheless, sixteen will still get you twenty.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||October 21, 2021 1:45 PM|
No, it actually won't, R57.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||October 21, 2021 1:48 PM|
No-one would have you believe anything, R56. The word adolescence is a scientific term that is well established and well known.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||October 21, 2021 1:49 PM|
Teenager and adolescent are terms that did not really exist in the 19th century. There was basically child and adult, and for the most part even the concept of childhood was a relatively new thing at the start of the 19th century, and you can even say childhood was an invention of the Victorian Age. Child abuse laws came only after animal abuse laws, animals were considered property and worth protecting, children not so much. The first child abuse cases were done under animal protection laws.
|by Anonymous||reply 60||October 21, 2021 1:51 PM|
Which means nothing, R59. Someone who's 18-year or 19-year old, R59, is considered an adult, legally. Who considers a 19-year-old an adolescent?
|by Anonymous||reply 61||October 21, 2021 1:52 PM|
R61 All doctors, all scientists, basically everyone who knows what the word adolescent means.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||October 21, 2021 1:53 PM|
Ah, so "science" determines a 19-year-old is still and adolescent, R62. So adolescents can vote for president and go to war.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||October 21, 2021 1:56 PM|
Eighteen years old is considered adult everywhere.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||October 21, 2021 1:56 PM|
The "adolescent" 18- or 19-year-old is also an adult in the eyes of the law.
|by Anonymous||reply 65||October 21, 2021 1:58 PM|
Yes, the third stage of adolescence is usually when people become legal adults.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||October 21, 2021 2:03 PM|
And are free to have sex with any adult they want, R66. And no one considers them adolescents.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||October 21, 2021 2:04 PM|
I'd think the people who know what adolescence means certainly consider them adolescents, R67.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||October 21, 2021 2:06 PM|
And I'd think the people who live their lives in the actual world certainly consider 18- and 19-year-olds adults, R68. By law people do, anyway.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||October 21, 2021 2:11 PM|
I rather think he suffered from some sad and twisted Martyr complex
|by Anonymous||reply 70||October 21, 2021 2:15 PM|
No, R70, he didn't. He was a highly successful and celebrated playwright and novelist who mistakenly thought his fame and brilliance would buffer him.
|by Anonymous||reply 71||October 21, 2021 2:17 PM|
R69 You've already had the meaning of adolescence explained to you several times. What you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you, but it seems an awful lot of hoop jumping to try and somehow prove that Oscar Wilde wasn't a pederast despite knowing what pederast means, knowing what adolescence means, and knowing he had numerous well-documented sexual relationships with adolescents (in the range of 14-16 as well as 19-21) and associated with known, and open, actual paedophiles.
I have no idea what you're trying to defend here.
|by Anonymous||reply 72||October 21, 2021 2:19 PM|
r70 he told himself he was dying for the noble Uranian cause of men loving other men, and that in that respect he was like the ancient Greeks, blah, blah, blah...if he were alive today he'd be dismissed as a narcissistic prisspot and laughed at,
|by Anonymous||reply 73||October 21, 2021 2:19 PM|
novelist? he wrote one book
|by Anonymous||reply 74||October 21, 2021 2:20 PM|
One more than you've written, R74. And it was a significant novel.
As for you, R72, it's pretty clear what you're trying to do: retry Wilde as some kind of Polanski-type villain. At least that's what it sounds like. And it's been explained to you, numerous times, that society's definition, and the legal definition, of what adolescence and adulthood are, is fairly well established.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||October 21, 2021 2:26 PM|
R73, actually he's recognized and appreciated as a brilliant wit. You, on the other hand...
|by Anonymous||reply 76||October 21, 2021 2:28 PM|
Only on DL do eighth-rate minds like R73 feel they can weigh in on a bona fide comic genius whose plays are still being performed 130+ years after he wrote them.
|by Anonymous||reply 77||October 21, 2021 2:34 PM|
Oscar: Bosie dear boy, climb upon my wretched phallus and I will impale you with my great love and fill you with the seed of my longing Bosie: Fuck off Oscar you great fat cunt
|by Anonymous||reply 78||October 21, 2021 2:35 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 79||October 21, 2021 2:37 PM|
It was Bosie who was the cunt, R78. DL and many on this thread can identify with him, no doubt.
|by Anonymous||reply 80||October 21, 2021 2:38 PM|
Bosie was also a talentless cunt.
|by Anonymous||reply 81||October 21, 2021 2:38 PM|
I wonder was Bosie looking for a father figure in Oscar cause his own was such a callous brute?
|by Anonymous||reply 82||October 21, 2021 2:39 PM|
Margaret Cotta, a chambermaid at the Savoy Hotel, testified at Wilde’s trial that while Wilde’s lover Alfred Douglas was visiting, she discovered a 14-year-old boy in Wilde’s bed. Cotta said Wilde’s sheets “were always in a most disgusting state…with traces of Vaseline, soil and semen.”
|by Anonymous||reply 83||October 21, 2021 2:51 PM|
Quoting from the right-wing Federalist, R83? Fuck outta here, you fucking Trumper. FF.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||October 21, 2021 2:53 PM|
r84 you didn't even have time to read it. Facts are facts
|by Anonymous||reply 85||October 21, 2021 2:55 PM|
[quote]traces of Vaseline, soil and semen
Soil? He was a scat queen too?
|by Anonymous||reply 86||October 21, 2021 2:58 PM|
The testimony of a chambermaid in homophobic Victorian England is undisputed fact, R85? I repeat. You're a fucking MAGAt.
There are 2 biographies on Wilde. Those books have facts. But you'd have to be able to read them to absorb the facts. Fuck off, Trumper. On ignore.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||October 21, 2021 2:59 PM|
Great men have great faults.
|by Anonymous||reply 88||October 21, 2021 2:59 PM|
A large part of this thread disappears when you put the MAGAt Trumper on ignore.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||October 21, 2021 3:01 PM|
Oscar Wilde's sodomy is tearing us apart!
|by Anonymous||reply 90||October 21, 2021 3:03 PM|
Hmm r87. you know my political affiliations because I see Oscar Wilde for what he was. I never said he wasn't a good writer, just that he was perverted. I'm not a Trump supporter, I don't live in the US, I'm not an American citizen and I don't care for politics. Your use of foul language and the rage you display makes you appear unhinged.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||October 21, 2021 3:04 PM|
Dear Lord in heaven!
|by Anonymous||reply 92||October 21, 2021 3:06 PM|
Likewise, when you block the raging foulmouthed prisspot, a lot of this thread disappears
|by Anonymous||reply 93||October 21, 2021 3:08 PM|
Simeon Solomon was a gay Jewish pre-Raphaelite painter whose career was destroyed following an arrest for sodomy in a public restroom.
Solomon was born into a prominent Jewish family. He was the eighth and last child born to merchant Michael (Meyer) Solomon and artist Catherine (Kate) Levy. Solomon was a younger brother to fellow painters Abraham Solomon (1824–1862) and Rebecca Solomon (1832–1886).
Born and educated in London, Solomon started receiving lessons in painting from his older brother around 1850. He started attending Carey's Art Academy in 1852. His older sister first exhibited her works at the Royal Academy during the same year.
As a student at the Royal Academy Schools, Solomon was introduced through Dante Gabriel Rossetti to other members of the Pre-Raphaelite circle, as well as the poet Algernon Charles Swinburne and the painter Edward Burne-Jones in 1857. His first exhibition was at the Royal Academy in 1858. He continued to hold exhibitions of his work at the Royal Academy between 1858 and 1872. In addition to the literary paintings favoured by the Pre-Raphaelite school, Solomon's subjects often included scenes from the Hebrew Bible and genre paintings depicting Jewish life and rituals. His association with Swinburne led to his illustrating Swinburne's controversial novel Lesbia Brandon in 1865.
In 1873 Simeon was arrested for soliciting in public restrooms and having sex with a 60-year-old stableman named George Roberts. Both men were charged with indecent exposure and an attempt to commit buggery. Both were found guilty, fined £100 and sentenced to 18 months hard labour. He was arrested again in 1874 in Paris on a similar charge, after which he was sentenced to spend three months in prison.
After his prosecutions he no longer exhibited, but his work was collected by such figures as Oscar Wilde, John Addington Symonds, Count Eric Stenbock, and Walter Pater.
In 1884 he was admitted to the workhouse where he continued to produce work, but his life and talent were blighted by alcoholism. Twenty years later in 1905, he died from complications brought on by his alcoholism. He was buried at the Jewish Cemetery in Willesden.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||October 21, 2021 3:10 PM|
Well, that's cheering.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||October 21, 2021 3:12 PM|
Does this Oscar Wilde have an Instagram account? Ain't never heard of him.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||October 21, 2021 3:13 PM|
Sued someone for libel for saying something about him that was absolutely, completely true, and could be verified.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||October 21, 2021 3:43 PM|
I imagine Wilde to be a cross between Elton John and Stephen Fry
|by Anonymous||reply 98||October 21, 2021 3:44 PM|
Que sera, sera.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||October 21, 2021 3:57 PM|
[quote]I imagine Wilde to be a cross between Elton John and Stephen Fry
With too much Greg!
|by Anonymous||reply 100||October 21, 2021 4:21 PM|
Bosie was a disgusting pedo who even thought about molesting Wilde's son Cyril. He also hooked up with a 14 year old boy named Ali in Algiers and threw a hissy fit when said boy hooked up with a woman.
|by Anonymous||reply 101||October 21, 2021 4:41 PM|
In fairness he hooked up with a young Patsy Stone and that matter has never been settled to anyone's satisfaction.
|by Anonymous||reply 102||October 21, 2021 4:45 PM|
I think the whole point of going to Algeria was the boys, when in Rome..
|by Anonymous||reply 103||October 21, 2021 4:45 PM|
But let’s bear in mind people died much younger back then.
And therefore they needed a head start.
My great grandparents got married at around the turn of the century, and they were 16 and 15 respectively. She went on to produce 17 [!] kids, and died at the ripe old age of 52.
|by Anonymous||reply 104||October 21, 2021 5:00 PM|
r104 the poor bitch died of exhaustion
|by Anonymous||reply 105||October 21, 2021 5:06 PM|
It's important to remember that during the Victorian Era, the age of consent was 14 for a boy and 12 for a girl. Many of the prostitutes were young teenagers, and they were usually dead or out of the game by the time they hit 20.
|by Anonymous||reply 106||October 21, 2021 5:11 PM|
That's called parenting, R106.
|by Anonymous||reply 107||October 21, 2021 5:16 PM|
So what did Wilde do that Catholic priest's haven't done for centuries? And other males to underage girls and boys?
The fact is that most parents don't want grown-ups seducing their children, no matter how alluring they may be. That's why there are age of consent laws. Wilde was living dangerously on the edge, flaunting convention and taking risks.
I have greatly enjoyed Oscar Wilde's work over the years and have read a couple of biographies about him. He was brilliant and fascinating. Part of what's interesting about his life is the era in which he lived. So many secrets, so many lies, so many living double lives. Old stories that go on and on.
|by Anonymous||reply 108||October 21, 2021 5:28 PM|
R108 again. Just read p R106. Age of consent for boys may have been 14, but homosexual acts were illegal at the time.
In 1855 the "Buggery Act" proclaimed that there would no longer be death as a punishment for sodomy.
|by Anonymous||reply 109||October 21, 2021 5:33 PM|
Some claim that the semantic difference between pedophile and pederast is that a pedophile is sexually attracted to children, while a pederast has actually had sex with children, but in reality the terms are used interchangeably. There's also no hard-and-fast definition for "pederasty," for complicated reasons.
It doesn't make any sense to say "he was a pedophile or a pederast at best." It MIGHT make sense if you reversed the terms, i.e. said "he was a pederast (had sex with children) or a pedophile (merely wanted to have sex with children) at best."
For all intents and purposes, however, the terms are interchangeable.
|by Anonymous||reply 110||October 21, 2021 5:44 PM|
The story of Oscar and Bosie procuring a "boy" in Algiers doesn't recount the boy's age, and the boy was apparently Bosie's and their friend Andre Gide's, not Oscar's. There is a review of Fryer's book from 1997 by Simon Callow where he recounts the "sexual tourism" involved 12- and 13-year-old boys, but he gives no source, though I presume there is one in the book.
|by Anonymous||reply 111||October 21, 2021 5:56 PM|
There was also another odd subtext to the Wilde trials - the British prime minister in 1894-95 was Lord Rosebery. Bosie's older brother, Francis Douglas, had become Rosebery's private secretary in 1892, and once Rosebery became prime minister, he created a peerage for the 26-year-old Francis in 1893. There were rumors that they were lovers. As he later did with Wilde, the Marquess of Queensbury denounced Rosebery. In October 1894. Francis Douglas died of gunshot wounds during a country hunting party. It may simply have been an accident, or possibly suicide or homicide. The circumstances of his death were never made clear.
The Rosebery government was thus frantic to avoid any suggestion that they were being 'soft' on the Wilde case, and so the prosecution and judgement was especially harsh.
The Liberal government fell in June, 1895, and Rosebery was no longer prime minister, but Wilde's trials were in April and May of that year. He was imprisoned on May 25.
|by Anonymous||reply 112||October 21, 2021 7:56 PM|
^^^ Correction - it was when Rosebery became Foreign Secretary that he arranged to elevate Douglas to the peerage/
|by Anonymous||reply 113||October 21, 2021 7:58 PM|
Uh, didn't seem anyone cared when he got his teenage wife pregnant or bragged to his pals about how good it felt...just that pesky homo sex...freaking out DL-ers over a century later.
|by Anonymous||reply 114||October 22, 2021 12:35 AM|
The government and the upper classes were afraid of things being revealed that had been successfully concealed during the Cleveland Street scandal and trial. Plus the whole thing was so unsavory and disgusting for the men who had to prosecute. Nobody wanted to deal with any of it.
That's why Wilde was given every opportunity to escape and why the government came down so harshly on him when he refused to flee.
|by Anonymous||reply 115||October 22, 2021 12:42 AM|
R87 The Savoy chambermaids' sworn testimony is in Wilde's trial transcripts. What the hell Trump has to do with this fact is entirely beyond me.
|by Anonymous||reply 116||October 22, 2021 12:49 AM|
“It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don’t believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it.”
|by Anonymous||reply 117||October 22, 2021 2:08 AM|
As the real Mrs. Patrick Campbell said "Does it really matter what these affectionate people do, so long as they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses?"
Wilde demanded to frighten the horses.
|by Anonymous||reply 118||October 22, 2021 3:11 AM|
Why are people bringing up the "sworn testimonies" of certain people in a trial that was designed to disgrace and humiliate Wilde? I don't take anything said against him in his trials as cold, hard fact.
|by Anonymous||reply 119||October 22, 2021 3:23 AM|
Have you read the thread r119? There were two trials and Wilde initiated the litigation. No one else was interested in pursuing any of it but Wilde forced it on everyone.
|by Anonymous||reply 120||October 22, 2021 3:27 AM|
R120 Either way, the goal of the prosecution was to smear his name beyond convicting him. All that's proven is that he was homosexual, all the stuff about pedophilia and sex tourism seems like stuff to just ruin his name further.
|by Anonymous||reply 121||October 22, 2021 3:31 AM|
At the time, just being homosexual time was enough to ensure years at hard labor but he was the only one who demanded it be pursued. Nobody else, including the Crown and its prosecutors, wanted anything to do with it but he deliberately forced their hands. Yes, there may have been a certain element of vituperation in their response when he forced them into a situation they wanted nothing to do with and had given him every opportunity from which to escape.
|by Anonymous||reply 122||October 22, 2021 3:53 AM|
On Constance Wilde's grave it just says 'Constance Lloyd', with 'Wife of Oscar Wilde', added later. Cleary she/her family wanted to distance themselves from the scandal, also changing the boys' surname to Holland.
If Wilde had had a male lover his own age, and conducted the affair privately, it wouldn't have been as scandalous. But he was cavorting with rent boys and common young men outside his class, using them, grooming and abusing them.
|by Anonymous||reply 123||October 22, 2021 10:38 AM|
He wasn't grooming them. They were prostitutes, they didn't need grooming.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||October 22, 2021 10:41 AM|
not all of them were rent boys, read the court transcripts, he was harassing and grooming all types of young men from the working class
|by Anonymous||reply 125||October 22, 2021 11:23 AM|
Oscar Wilde didn't just cause his own downfall, there was help in form of "Bosie" and to some extent Constance Wilde.
That being said it was Constance Lloyd Wilde who paid Oscar Wilde's expenses when he was released from prison. Constance Wilde wrote to her husband all during his confinement, and the two planned for a reunion after Oscar Wilde's release. Boise put a damper on those plans among other bits of nasty work that is largely reason today Constance Lloyd remains seen as some sort of cold villainess
|by Anonymous||reply 126||October 22, 2021 11:31 AM|
On another note one of Oscar Wilde's grandsons put to rest the lie Constance Lloyd died from a STD she caught from her husband.
Cause of death likely was multiple sclerosis, but the quack Italian physician Constance Lloyd Wilde sought out only had one cure for any female illness, and operation. Constance Wilde died shortly after under going said surgery.
|by Anonymous||reply 127||October 22, 2021 11:35 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 128||October 22, 2021 11:37 AM|
Does Wilde have any living direct descendants?
|by Anonymous||reply 129||October 22, 2021 11:37 AM|
r129 rhmmm, read the article above hun
|by Anonymous||reply 130||October 22, 2021 11:39 AM|
Constance Wilde died of shame and embarrassment
|by Anonymous||reply 131||October 22, 2021 11:55 AM|
Decades earlier Oscar’s mother was herself involved in a trial over libel with a young woman who said she was slandered by Oscar’s mother and claimed his father chloroformed and raped her. Like her son, she lost the case as well.
|by Anonymous||reply 132||October 22, 2021 2:21 PM|
Anybody have access to this and can cut and paste the text?
|by Anonymous||reply 133||October 23, 2021 6:02 AM|
If he didn’t mean so much to so many people, he would be absolutely cancelled today. Fucking with 15-year-old employees is Spacey-esque. But, like David Bowie, the Right Sort Of People like him (and they don’t like Roman Polanski and Woody Allen who are Bowie-comparative giants in film) so he won’t be cancelled.
Nor should he be. Anyone who wrote the following needs to be celebrated:
[quote] 'It is not for Him that I am weeping, but for myself. I too have changed water into wine, and I have healed the leper and given sight to the blind. I have walked upon the waters, and from the dwellers in the tombs I have cast out devils. I have fed the hungry in the desert where there was no food, and I have raised the dead from their narrow houses, and at my bidding, and before a great multitude, of people, a barren fig-tree withered away. All things that this man has done I have done also. And yet they have not crucified me.'
|by Anonymous||reply 134||October 27, 2021 5:34 PM|
[quote]So, R12, you're basically saying that sins, or perceived sins, were no problem in Victorian and Edwardian society -- and are no problem in any other society -- as long as they're kept under wraps.
Amazing how you managed to arrive at this truly brilliant conclusion. You idiot.
|by Anonymous||reply 135||October 27, 2021 5:59 PM|
Sorry about my mis-coding above. I do wish there was an edit function for these posts. Should have been:
So, [R12], you're basically saying that sins, or perceived sins, were no problem in Victorian and Edwardian society -- and are no problem in any other society -- as long as they're kept under wraps.
Amazing how you managed to arrive at this truly brilliant conclusion. You idiot.
|by Anonymous||reply 136||October 27, 2021 6:01 PM|
[quote]Margaret Cotta, a chambermaid at the Savoy Hotel, testified at Wilde’s trial that while Wilde’s lover Alfred Douglas was visiting, she discovered a 14-year-old boy in Wilde’s bed. Cotta said Wilde’s sheets “were always in a most disgusting state…with traces of Vaseline, soil and semen.”
Imagine if she had worked in that hotel where they found Andrew Gillum.
|by Anonymous||reply 137||October 27, 2021 6:07 PM|
If only he had lived in our time.
|by Anonymous||reply 138||October 27, 2021 6:38 PM|
I can’t believe that Bosie is considered to be so good looking. What did I miss?
|by Anonymous||reply 139||October 29, 2021 1:27 PM|
Oscar was not bad looking. I perceive his mannerisms, though, were quite feminine.
Sad his later years were so painful.
His writings are awesome.
|by Anonymous||reply 140||October 29, 2021 1:44 PM|
if Wilde was alive today you'd all find him insufferable
|by Anonymous||reply 141||October 29, 2021 1:48 PM|
I’m more intrigued about the post-prison Paris years. It makes such a simple end of story to say he was exiled to Paris and died a “broken” man. But I’ve never accepted the “broken” cliche. He consciously dedicated himself to self-destruction in an almost exact copy of his behavior pre-trial. It’s like he just said “I want to die”. He never tried to work, he literally begged off people on the street for alcohol money, he became a pathetic whiner and made no attempt to save himself. I find the absence of “fight” in him to mitigate his idolization as a gay rights icon. He acted and joked when he thought he was above it all - but when he had to deal with the real world challenges of being gay as a common man, he folded.
|by Anonymous||reply 142||October 30, 2021 3:11 AM|
You bitches, Stephen Fry IS Oscar Wilde. Fry played Oscar in 1997’s “Wilde” which co-stared DL fave Jude Law as Bosie. I reviewed it for the newspaper I was writing for at the time. I remember being somewhat entertained, and it was obvious Fry was made to play the role. Judy was perfectly cast as a fresh-faced twink dandy.
|by Anonymous||reply 143||October 30, 2021 3:59 AM|
Michael Sheen showed his perky butt in Wilde!
|by Anonymous||reply 144||October 30, 2021 4:01 AM|
Nobody wanted to publish the work of a disgraced homosexual. Oscar could have repented, gone back to Constance, and spent the rest of life with a modicum of respectability. He chose to openly as a gay man.
|by Anonymous||reply 145||October 30, 2021 4:07 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 146||October 30, 2021 4:07 AM|
Judy played Bosie? Who knew!
|by Anonymous||reply 147||October 30, 2021 4:59 AM|
"Three months before Oscar Wilde was released from prison, in February 1897, his wife Constance obtained a legal separation and a formal end of his responsibility for his two sons. After much rancorous discussion, she agreed to offer him an annual allowance of £150 a year on condition that he did not get in touch with her or the children without her permission. The other condition, as Nicholas Frankel writes in his detailed and finely judged account of Wilde’s life after prison, was “that he not associate in future with any person deemed disreputable in the eyes of his own lawyer”. This was an indirect reference to Lord Alfred Douglas, who had been Wilde’s lover."
Constance Wilde was very generous to her estranged husband both financially and otherwise. Oscar Wilde OTOH was simply one who seemed determined to throw everything he had out the window.
People judging Constance Wilde harshly in modern light need to step back and look at things from Victorian era.
Name "Wilde" become one of execration in UK and some other places. More to point Constance Wilde had her children to consider. For sake of her children Constance Wilde needed to be able to move easily in society. Fortunately now Constance Lloyd had an income of her own which afforded her some protection.
|by Anonymous||reply 148||October 30, 2021 5:30 AM|
Agree Stephen Fry is the perfect, iconic Wilde who not only looks scarily similar but has the wit, charm and style of Wilde. The 1997 film had the best possible actors for those roles. Perfectly cast. And a generally good film.
|by Anonymous||reply 149||October 30, 2021 10:07 AM|