Manchin and Sinema

Preach OP. We have to get this frustration out. Betrayal is the ultimate punch to the psyche. We have been stabbed in the back. Anger is a natural reaction.

That full of shit Sinema-rhymes with enema-(which she needs) left Washington for some kind of fundraising in Europe this past weekend. She is openly corrupt. I wish she could be recalled or something.

The rot is that the legislators who are reasonably effective are also "semi corrupt" so body cannot and will not police itself.

It pisses me off more each day.

Yeah I agree with all. But when we are a full on autocracy and women have no rights and LGBTQ are persecuted we will regret we didn't fight harder. But maybe we will eventually rise up, throw our windows open, lean out and shout in unison "I'm bad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore". Probably not gonna happen but it would be nice. If the Republicans take the House and Senate -or just the House in 2022- your can bet first on the Keven Mcarthy agenda will be starting impeachment against Joe Biden and if the R's take the Senate, Joe will be convicted for who knows what they can cobble together and Kamala will be next. and McCarthy becomes President. Nightmare.

Just wanted to ask why Don Winslow, Lincoln Project, Meidas Touch and others are having to call out these greedy disgusting garbage folks rather than the democrats. Why do the Democrats sit on their asses and talk about how optimistic they are that Manchin will come around? He's just using Trumps pkay of dragging this thing out under the guise of "negotiating" until it is no longer evennviable and the public has lost faith in Biden and the Democrats. BTW, where the hell is Kamala Harris? She needs to get her ass kicked into high gear. Voting rights and Bidens agenda and DEMOCRACY hangs in the balance.

I can't post the link-Datalounge won't allow it but to understand what is going on with Joe Manchin go to Don Winslow films n YouTube and watch his latest film on Manchin. Real eye opener. Selling outhit country for the oil companies. That's not all...

OP - How many more of these fucking threads are you gonna start? Do you ever get out of your basement for fresh air? Ever step away from MSNBC and think of anything other than politics? Give it a fucking rest psycho Mary.

AOC is not doing anything others haven't done for years or is doing now. She just gets all the credit for it because she's so FIERCE!

Lots of other effective members of Congress also craft legislation believe it or not.

Biden spent months touring the country to "sell" the plan to "the country". Time's running out.

He should have spent that time coordinating investigations of Machin and Sinema. By now he would have had some excellent info to use against them to force them to cooperate.

Touring touring touring. Because just maybe one of those random factory workers and farmers he met with would make THE call to their senator that would pass a bill. Come on.

Touring.

Always on the road like a medical device salesman.

A waste of time.

I think it’s fair to say we got unreasonably exuberant about the endless possibilities when we won the two Senate seats in Georgia to “take” the Senate.

Jill needs to cut that hair.

They are both assholes.

They both suck.

Is it just coincidence that both of their names are homophones? I am not speaking of the telephones dialed with pencils, neither.

There is a difference between Politics (proposing a agenda, getting elected) and Governance (managing the country’s collective needs).

Nearly 1/2 the country voted for The Former Guy. They think the country needs to go backwards.

Much as we may hate it, Congress is doing what the “average voter” wants: slowly going forward.

[quote]Just wanted to ask why Don Winslow, Lincoln Project, Meidas Touch and others are having to call out these greedy disgusting garbage folks rather than the democrats.

The Democrats have called Sinema and Manchin out. Biden has a few times, Sanders has, Mazie Hirono has a few times, Schumer was doing it this summer, and the Arizona Democratic Party has been calling for Sinema to cut it out and even sanctioned her about three weeks ago.

These threads are just for the trolls to do the "Democrats don't do anything" shit, aren't they?

I’d like to hear more from Schumer on these two. They are getting away with sinking the party goals. How does that fly?

These bills are very popular in Arizona and even more so in WV.

Why are they allowed to run interference for Mitch?

Well, Chuck?

I hate to break it to you all, but Manchin and Sinema are only providing cover for a bunch of other Democratic senators who agree with the shenanigans they are pulling and want to tank the Build Back Better agenda too. Mark Warner, Chris Coons, Maggie Hasan, Jeanne Shaheen, Angus King and Bob Menendez are all cheering this on without facing nearly as much scrutiny.

The whole messaging from the party that they just have to win more seats in order to get a better bill is bullshit. If, despite the aggressive voter suppression, depressed turnout and attempts at cheating by the reich, the Democrats win [italic] more [/italic] seats next year, any one of these senators will step up and provide the votes necessary to block progressive legislation. Not to mention that Conor Lamb and Val Demings would do the same thing if they won their races.

So please stop pretending that this whole thing is anything other than a show. Either the crappy "bipartisan" infrastructure bill will pass or nothing will unless, and until, there is a reckoning with the party's voters and more efforts are put into aggressive primaries.

I know, R23, that they’re providing cover on the filibuster issue. Not so sure about the reconciliation bill.

Do you have a link r23, or is this your opinion?

R25, Claire McCaskill & Capitol Hill correspondent Jake Sherman have made R23’s point repeatedly on Dateline White House, Nicolle Wallace’s show. In fact, Sherman has suggested there may not even be as many as 40 votes to change the filibuster rule. Even on today’s show, Sen. Angus King said that, while he’s in favor of a filibuster carve-out for election laws, that he hasn’t been one who necessarily favors a change to the filibuster rule on regular policy votes.

r19, Moronic Mormon homophobe fires teacher for teaching homophones.

Re-These turncoats will never budge, you can hear it in every word and see it in their actions. They're bought and paid for by dark money. Manchin wants to be President. I see fire in his eyes.

The Dems are being careful because they both could switch parties and instantly hand the GOP/Fascists a majority in the Senate and an end to anything resembling active democracy in this country.

R28, as Angus King said today, the concern is that blowing up the filibuster could come back to haunt Democrats (& those who caucus with them) if the tables are turned & the Republicans control the Congress & the presidency. He also said that McConnell withstood Trump's entreaties to eliminate the filibuster.

It seems they already have in some respects.

Their behavior is odd to say the least.

OP what the hell good does it do to call them out? They simply aren't going to change their positions significantly. You need 50 votes to pass a reconciliation bill and as long as some of that 50 are not willing to play along, the bill won't pass and those two and maybe more won't kill the filibuster. I want the Biden agenda to pass but I really don't see how ostracizing them accomplishes that goal. Both Manchin and Sinema want to be be able to go home to their voters and say see how effective I was, reelect me. We could primary them but they could easily both be replaced with Republicans which would be even worse.

R25 Allow me to show you some of the sources where these senators reveal their hand, largely under the radar. Here is Menendez opposing a key provision to making the Build Back Better bill affordable. This all but makes it unpassable in the House.

Here is Warner echoing Sinema in the demand to pass the corporate giveaway bill first before working on the reconciliation bill, which will all but assure its failure.

A key tell for the senators who are really opposed to progressive legislation is if they make regular appearances on the fascist Fox network. Here's Chris Coons.

Here's Shaheen also echoing Sinema.

Sinema and Manchin are the price we pay to hold the Senate and we must hold the Senate.

Hassan hasn't been making these types of public tells the way the others have, including King who R26 and R29 point out opposes gutting the filibuster, which basically prevents anything from passing in the senate. That's because she's up for reelection, but trust me when I tell you she's on board with it as well. The biggest thing people could do is assure she loses in a primary, especially since her poll numbers are abysmal and she's likely to lose anyway. Just getting more seats in the senate isn't enough if you have a bunch of these clowns in the caucus. It's not just my observation. It's fact.

Kyrsten Sinema’s Own Advisers Just Dumped Her

[quote] In a letter to Sinema, they confronted her with a litany of offenses—accusing her of using them as “window dressing” for her political brand, ignoring their recommendations, and going back on her campaign promises to protect voting access and reduce the price of prescription drugs.

[quote] “Are you choosing to answer to big donors rather than Arizonans?” they asked. “These are not the actions of a maverick.”

I wish Amy Klobuchar would take out these two assholes with a stapler to their heads.

im not sure what you people want from them. They're both barely Democrats. Sinema is more of a surprise but there have always been odd duck senators who usually only last 1 term. none have served in the age of digital media.

Sinema will be primaried in 2024 if she runs again, which is looking unlikely. That's about all you can do.

Ignorant person here, please bear with.

[quote]You need 50 votes to pass a reconciliation bill and as long as some of that 50 are not willing to play along, the bill won't pass and those two and maybe more won't kill the filibuster.

Is this the same number of votes needed for everything?

How many votes to make DC and Puerto Rico US states?

If, by some miracle it happens, how long is the process? How long to elect a governor, or is the first one appointed?

How long until the state representatives are elected?

Does the governor just appoint the first senators?

Are all the congresspersons elected?

If so, how does the new state pay for this? How does a state treasury come into existence?

How long to establish a state constitution?

This Hail Mary play to create two New Democratic-leaning states will take a very long time, correct? Even if the vote happens during Biden’s first term.

There is no chance if this happening while McConnell still has a stranglehold on Congress, is there?

I just don’t see the red states turning purple enough to eradicate this Republican insanity in any amount of time resembling the ‘near future’ without something out of left field majorly altering the playing field.

Even if these monsters start getting incarcerated for their part in the insurrection or dropping dead, they’ll just be replaced by other repugnant Senators by their Republican governors, and the Republican representatives re-elected by their repugnant Republican constituents.

What will it take to turn the tide in a dramatic, measurable way?

And don’t say voting.

This is as good as it gets.

The same people will vote the same way or not at all, again.

And any hope of reaching ignorant voters to change their minds will be thwarted by redistricting/gerrymandering.

They need another Mark Kelly to primary her and send her back to Tinder or wherever she can roam without doing damage.

The only Manchin solution I see is to elect two to three more Democrats, no matter what it takes. One to cancel his vote when, the balance to have true control of the Senate and neutralize his ability to fuck things up.

In the current political climate, R42, we may be very lucky if we can just maintain our current tie, with Manchin remaining an all-important vote.

Can someone tell me who these two guys that are with Sienema in this video?

Are her handlers European? Or are those two strapping, slender Americans flanking her?

And how old is this brat anyway?

Well?

R45 and R46. The silly cow is 45-much too old to be curtsying and acting like a teenybopper and wearing Wilma Flintstone hand me downs. She has a major screw loose.

What video, dear?

I don’t see the video now. But she had an orange purse on the Capitol steps. The video was outside, she would not take questions. She got into a white car.

It was just a day or two ago.

Democratic Sens. Kyrsten Sinema (Ariz.) and Joe Manchin III (W.Va.) are mentioned in the same sentence so frequently that there’s a raging battle on Twitter over whether Manchinema or Sinemanchin is the correct portmanteau. But despite the obvious similarities between the two most conservative members of the Democrats’ Senate caucus — notably their opposition to the size of President Biden’s major domestic-spending bill, as originally introduced, and willingness to buck their party’s leadership — Manchin and Sinema represent very distinct political visions.

A reputation for independence, by itself, can have some electoral allure. But Manchin’s departure from the Democratic mainstream — however much it infuriates progressives — offers something of a road map for appealing to less-educated and rural voters, especially White ones, whom the party badly needs to win if it wants to hold future Senate majorities. Sinema, by contrast, offers little beyond vague fiscal conservatism. She chooses politically perverse topics on which to make a stand, blocking some of Biden’s most popular ideas, and offers nothing for the party to build on.

To an extent they sometimes fail to appreciate, Democrats are incredibly lucky to have someone as open to their ideas as Manchin representing such a deep-red state. Biden, after all, attracted a mere 29.7 percent of the presidential vote in West Virginia in 2020, and the Democratic challenger to the state’s other senator, Shelley Moore Capito (R), got 27 percent. On the face of it, Democrats would appear to have something to learn from Manchin, who has served in the Senate for more than a decade, about selling the party’s brand in inhospitable political territory.

The Sinema story is very different. Her 2018 win seemed very impressive at the time, given Democrats’ relatively poor recent track record in Arizona. But Mark Kelly, a much more conventional Democrat, beat literally the same opponent (Martha McSally) two years later, and won by exactly the same margin as Sinema despite an overall national political climate that was much less favorable to Democrats than it had been in 2018.

Perhaps people just love astronauts (Kelly made four trips into space before following three predecessors into Congress). But while it’s generally true that moderates have better electoral performance relative to progressives, Sinema’s choices of which hills to die on are not especially politically adept. She attracted attention early in Biden’s term with a showy thumbs-down for a minimum-wage increase, for instance, even though minimum-wage referendums routinely win even in very red states such as Missouri (to say nothing of Arizona itself, where a minimum-wage initiative passed 58 to 42 percent back in 2016).

The progressive data and analytics firm Blue Rose Research recently set out to rigorously assess the popularity of a wide range of progressive policy proposals. Blue Rose wanted to move beyond traditional issue polling (where almost anything tends to look popular because respondents like to answer “yes” to pollsters) by asking questions that feature explicit partisan framing and counterarguments. In this environment, lots of cherished Biden initiatives such as the expanded child tax credit fare poorly. But other progressive ideas like adding dental and vision benefits to Medicare do well. The single best-scoring item on the agenda, as measured by Blue Rose, is letting the federal government bargain down the price of prescription drugs. A recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll found similarly deep support for that policy: Even when voters heard the argument that price negotiation could hamper drug innovation, a large majority — including 71 percent of Republicans — still liked it.

Like the minimum wage, this is an issue that Democrats can take into tough races and try to win on. And if the national electorate primarily associated the Democratic Party with ideas like lower prescription drug costs, rather than lifestyle liberalism and avant-garde cultural politics, it wouldn’t face such punishing disadvantages in the Senate and the electoral college. But Sinema opposes the idea — and by doing so, she may cost Biden his single best opportunity not only to make health care more affordable for many Americans but also to do something voters will like, and remember. (The money saved through price negotiation would also help pay for other programs in the bill.)

More broadly, Sinema is also against increases in the top income tax rate or the corporate tax rate. This is a nearly unprecedented stance for a Democrat, especially considering that Sinema voted against President Donald Trump’s tax cut bill when it passed in 2017. In a telling move the following year, though, she not only voted to extend the Tax Cut and Jobs Act’s temporary provisions but explained that “my big complaint when the tax bill passed last November was that it didn’t provide permanency for small businesses who use pass-through taxes to run their businesses and it didn’t provide permanency for middle-class families.”

These provisions are, indeed, popular with a small number of high-income business owners but low taxes on the rich are one of the GOP’s least-popular policy commitments, with the Pew Research Center consistently finding that the public’s top two complaints about the tax status quo are that corporations and the wealthy pay too little. During Trump’s first two years in office, a big business tax cut was his main policy achievement, and it was followed by massive Democratic midterm wins — yet this is the part of the Trump legacy that Sinema wants to entrench?

By contrast, Manchin, in his summer letter to Senate Majority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) expressing doubts about Democrats’ expansive budget reconciliation package, clearly embraced higher taxes on the rich. He called for increasing the corporate tax rate and the top individual income tax rate, imposing a higher levy on capital gains, and closing the carried interest loophole.

His difference with party leaders is that he wants to limit new spending to $1.5 trillion and dedicate any additional revenue to deficit reduction. This is at odds with the fiscal policy views of the Biden White House (and is frankly a bit odd on the merits, given the current low interest rates), but you only need to go back to President Barack Obama to find a time when Manchin’s view was the dominant current of Democratic thought. The public, meanwhile, at least professes to be concerned about the deficit — 49 percent of Americans tell Gallup that they worry about it “a great deal” and 28 percent more worry “a fair amount.”

The real break with progressive orthodoxy in Manchin’s memo comes on climate change, where he insists that the agenda must be “spending on innovation, not elimination.” In the current negotiations, he’s opposing the proposed Clean Electricity Performance Program, which would essentially pay utilities to eschew burning coal or natural gas. But he is open to various production subsidies that aim to increase the availability of zero-carbon energy, as long as they include support for efforts to generate zero-carbon electricity from coal and natural gas via carbon capture and sequestration.

This last point is probably a pipe dream, but it’s easy enough to see why a senator from West Virginia doesn’t want to formally sign a death sentence for the coal industry. And Manchin’s insistence that climate policy should focus on maximizing clean-energy production rather than penalizing fossil fuel use is perfectly in line with public opinion, where ballot initiatives to tax emissions keep failing even in blue states.

Manchin is a proud gun owner, a supporter of the Hyde Amendment — which bans the use of federal funds to pay for abortion — and someone who talks exclusively about brass-tacks economic issues rather than racial politics or other social and cultural matters. He seems like the kind of guy who wouldn’t introduce himself with his pronouns. And however you feel about this personally, it’s proved to be a winning formula in the very red state of West Virginia, where Manchin massively overperforms national Democrats.

Sinema, by contrast, has all the personal style cues of a stereotypical urban educated liberal, and breaks with her party primarily to defend unpopular business interests.

The party isn’t going to uniformly Manchinize, and it shouldn’t, since many Democrats have constituencies that are more diverse and more urbanized than Manchin’s. But going halfway to where he is could put states like Ohio, Iowa and North Carolina within striking distance. Resurrecting a Manchin-style wing of the party could be a godsend for the Democrats in large swaths of the country. It wasn’t so long ago, after all, that Democrats held 60 Senate seats, including from Arkansas, South Dakota and Alaska. That achievement required ideological compromise, but having enough votes to overcome the filibuster also put bigger policy changes on the table like the Affordable Care Act and the Dodd-Frank financial regulation overhaul.

If you’re a Democrat and you want to break with progressive orthodoxy, you should do it in a way that’s attentive to public opinion or to specific local concerns. Given the varied set of positions that Sinema, a former Green Party activist and onetime progressive firebrand in the Arizona Senate, has had over the course of her career, it’s a little hard to know where she’s coming from in her latest political incarnation. But her brand of renegade politics is fundamentally a dead end, in ways that should be appreciated even by those of us who think the Democratic Party would benefit from a bit more Manchinism.

I called it Machine and Sinema are DINOs Democrats in Name Only. They need their own assess handed to them post haste.

[quote] Biden spent months touring the country to "sell" the plan to "the country". Time's running out.

Biden has spent better than a third of his presidency stretched out in his Delaware home watching Matlock reruns

President Joe Biden brought two pivotal senators — Joe Manchin and Chuck Schumer — to his Delaware home Sunday for talks aimed at resolving the budget deal

Kamala is over her head...Biden, though likable, is an old fool.

Just calling them out isn't enough...R21.

Bonnie and Clyde, these two.

[quote] Bonnie and Clyde, these two.

Thema and Louise would work for me as well

These two are using the old bait and switch. Old as time.

K.S. So gleefully voted against minimum wage but she gets paid over 5 times the average salary and it’s government money.

The fall of these people

Any luck finding that video? Where she was flanked by the two handsome strangers?

This chick is a straight up spy.

Wasn’t she in Europe last weekend?

74 y/o dude worth $8 million is convinced that ALL of the other 98 people are wrong,

and he's right...

...so NOTHING should happen...(?)

Ummm…who would oppose those things? Does evil itself have lobbiest?

That stuff is like basic human decency. Why would somebody be against negotiation drug prices?

Which family in Arizona is demanding that drug prices not be raised?

And what kind of political stance is:” I stand against dental insurance for seniors!”

What a disgusting duo.

Thanks Kristin. Please keep my drug and prescription costs high! That is so helpful to the average family.

[quote] 74 y/o dude worth $8 million is convinced that ALL of the other 98 people are wrong,

That could be the basis of a pretty good book saluting acts of bravery and integrity by United States Senators standing against overwhelming pressures

What a strange set of swords to fall on.

What in the would is up with circus?

Manchin is unsurprising if intransigent. Sinema is a liar.

At my job, we never fire anyone. We make their lives a living hell until they start toeing the line or quit

Now why can't the democrats do this?

[quote] Thanks Kristin. Please keep my drug and prescription costs high! That is so helpful to the average family.

Corey booker opposed this a few years ago. He received $120,000 worth of donations from drug companies and he felt like that was worth it to sell out 335 million people

He's a cheap ass whore

[quote] That stuff is like basic human decency. Why would somebody be against negotiation drug prices?

And for the people who don't know or understand this, every single insurance company, hospital, nursing home, any type of medical facility, treatment facility, the VA Hospitals, Medicaid, Tricare (retired military), all negotiate for drug prices, but the republicans wanted to give a gift to big pharma, so when they wrote the Medicaid prescription plan, they wrote a part of the law that the government would NOT, EVER ask for any type of discount, rebate, or anything similar. The taxpayers pay full price. FULL RETAIL PRICE

Other countries negotiate drug prices. That's why the politicians were considering writing a law that would allow them to import drugs from Canada, it's was so we could get drugs at the prices Canada negotiated for themselves, cause they are not fucking idiots, like America is

Medicare probably pays for 1.5 BILLION prescriptions a year. And they pay (actually the taxpayers) FULL RETAIL PRICE

If you owned a business and you needed to buy 100 cars for your company to use, would you ask for a discount? Or would you pay sticker price?

Imagine having to buy 1.5 BILLION cars very year and paying full sticker price?

Some prescriptions actually cost more than a car does

Their political survival and answering to their massive donation benefactors is really what all politicians care about. That's the reality. This is nothing new and has been said a thousand times. The difference is...now it's really out in the open, when it was hidden. Today it's a badge of honor for repubs and two Democrats. Some other Democrats are still old school and try to hide it.

Sigh

True, true, true.

But our system’s partly to blame. Costs too much to run because hardly anyone “reads” relatively objective media anymore.

Where else are politicians going to get the millions of dollars they need to advertise themselves to tens of millions of potential voters? Only Fans?

Manchin's daughter Heather lied about having an MBA to get a job with the pharmaceutical company that manufactures the Epipen. She increased the price by 400 % and her mother got her a deal for just this one company to supply Epipens for the West Virginia school districts-very lucrative. Heather made !8 million dollars off this grift. She then was instrumental in moving the company overseas which hurt the people of West Virginia working there. Manchin definitely thinks more like a Republicunt. And the SOB doesn't want seniors to have dental coverage or lower prescription drug costs. Or clean electricity-he has a company -forget the name but he makes millions off of keeping coal in use in the state.

If he got shoved in front of a bus I would't be sad.

And Joe Biden said "Kyrsten Sinema is smart as the devil". The bitch IS the devil in Wilma Flintstones clothing.Democrats aren't perfect but these 2 are working for Mitch McConnell-the Build Back Better is going to be so delayed that it will likely never actually pass. I'm sick of this shit. give me Bernie and AOC any day.

[quote] Where else are politicians going to get the millions of dollars they need to advertise themselves to tens of millions of potential voters? Only Fans?

None of them are getting millions from drug companies. Stop lying

R77. You are so wrong.

[quote] None of them are getting millions from drug companies.

Politico reported last Friday that pressure from pharma-backed lawmakers, including Menendez, Sen. Kyrsten Sinema, D-Ariz., Sen. Tom Carper, D-Del., Rep. Scott Peters, D-Calif., and Rep. Kurt Schrader, D-Ore., is likely to force Democrats to make major concessions on the number of drugs that could be negotiated.

Welch told Salon that negotiators are trying to address concerns about innovation raised by lawmakers from districts with a large pharmaceutical presence, like Peters, who represents San Diego and some of its affluent suburbs.

she's mental

[quote]That's why the politicians were considering writing a law that would allow them to import drugs from Canada, it's was so we could get drugs at the prices Canada negotiated for themselves, cause they are not fucking idiots, like America is

Don't you ever say that about Canada. It is boring and stupid. This is an American board!!!

Yep...video with her in a denim vest included a hair flip and a thumbs up. The only thing missing was the curtsy.

I’d like to see lower prescription prices, but the way to do it is to force European countries to pay more. Drug companies are able to offset the low prices Europe pays by making Americans pay more. The money to cover the investments in new drugs and to pay shareholders has to come from somewhere.

[quote]I’d like to see lower prescription prices, but the way to do it is to force European countries to pay more.

Thanks so much. Nice to see America planning to export its domestic misery.

A brief education for R83.

Europe is not the problem.

I heard this morning that Manchin is not in favor of paid family leave. The initial proposal for leave was 12 weeks. The Dems compromised to four weeks--and Manchin is not even in favor of that. What the fuck is wrong with him? Wouldn't those people in West Virginia at least appreciate a month of paid family leave?

Apparently, Meghan Markle's letter had no affect on him! Motherfucking Manchin isn't in favor of anything but coal.

r85, that article doesn’t address cost shifting at all. It just reiterates the problem, without calling it a problem, of Europe paying less than their fair share because of price negotiation.

It’s like a group of ten people all go to a restaurant and order the exact same thing, but when it come time to pay, nine of the people say they are only going to pay 5% of the check instead of 10%. The tenth guy ends up having to make up for the others not paying what they should. It’s cost shifting, which is a concept everyone is familiar with in American healthcare. Costs are what they are. If one person pays less, you can only shift the cost to someone else..

So when Europe has a structure that lets it negotiate better prices, that's not paying its fair share. But when the U.S. opens the flood gate to pure market pricing, it's getting screwed unfairly. NO ONE FORCES THE UNITED STATES TO DO STUPID THINGS TO LINE THE POCKETS OF CORPORATIONS INSTEAD OF BENEFITTING IT'S CITIZENS... UNLESS YOU COUNT THE AMERICANS CALLING THE SHOTS ON THE DECISION.

The article plainly states the pharma companies price according to what the market will bear. Based on the American model, you get what you pay for at very high cost. There is not some magic real price. There is what the pharmas will sell for based on what the market will bear.

Do you even understand how stupid you sound?

"Please don't touch me"

[quote] The article plainly states the pharma companies price according to what the market will bear.

Yes, that’s true, and when that market price is lower than that market’s fair share, the remainder ends up having to be paid by someone else to keep the company afloat. It’s cost shifting.

The myth of cost shifting.

But cost shifting isn't the driver of costs in the U.S. The system in the U.S. is the problem. So why should the rest of the world settle for less because you guys can't put away your cowboy hats? You do not run the world and for once your system is working against you. Shame it's at such a cost to actual human beings, but, hey, the greatest nation on earth, right?

r91, the author states, “unfortunately there does not appear to be any research to date testing for the presence of cost-shifting by drug companies empirically,” and so has no evidence to debunk it specifically. We have only the straightforward logic that if someone pays less than their fair share and there is no way to absorb the reduction, the remaining customers are subject to making up the difference.

r92, let’s try reducing the cost of prescription drugs in the U.S. by having Canada and Europe make up the difference. If that works, then that’s what we should do going forward.

R93, shut your mouth, open your mind, read something and learn. Your whole theory rests on the notion there is one fair universal price. Who sets that fair price? You seem hung up on the notion the U.S. gets to decide this. It does not. You've been provided with two credible references that show cost shifting is not the problem with U.S. drug prices. The nature of the U.S. market is. Really simply, because there are so many players in the U.S. and because the biggest player, Medicaid, is prohibited from bulk buying, the U.S. market is subject the worst of market forces. Moreover, other markets won't buy every drug but work within a formulary, while the United States allows the purchase of all approved drugs. Further, the U.S. allows direct to consumer advertising, creating demand, which most other countries do not.

Now you can either deal in objective fact or you can't. If you can, you'll probably give up your faulty theory and reconsider your position. If you can't, I suggest you Google MAGA rally but I'm done with you because life is too short for this much stubborn and stupid.

[quote][R92], let’s try reducing the cost of prescription drugs in the U.S. by having Canada and Europe make up the difference.

Entertain me... how exactly would you accomplish that? Sounds dangerously close to nationalization or violation of any number of trade agreements. But do go on, you're fantastic.

[quote] Your whole theory rests on the notion there is one fair universal price. Who sets that fair price?

No, there can’t be one universal price, since third world countries, unlike the U.S. and Europe, can’t pay an evenly split share. A fair share price for European countries would be considerably higher, and should be higher than what they pay now.

I’m getting close to Medicare age, and I would like the extra benefits, but I have to agree with Manchin that the higher priority is preventing the insolvency of Medicare that is expected in the next few years. Let’s take care of the insolvency first before adding any extras.

you people really don't get it do you? Manchin and Sinema are making it impossible to pass the Build Back Better bill by demanding things be cut that are integral ton the bill and popular with the majority of Democrats and Republicans. They are making ridiculous demands to cut climate change, the corporate tax hikes and Sinema and Manchin are playing for the other team. McConnell won't give Biden a win on anything and he's got two senators in his pocket. If the Infrastructure bill -which was a gift to corporations- passes I'll be somewhat surprised. Finally people like Bernie Sanders and certain NY Times columnists are calling Joe and Kyrsten Nihilists. As Michelle Goldberg, of The NY Times said this evening on Joy Reid "I don't think Manchin would fight to pass his own voting rights bill". The bill that is so meaningless and yet Manchin talks of Repubs being "good 'people-no they aren't. And saying how much he loves them -and the Democrats. I'd love to see him investigated by the FBI for his filthy dirty dealings. Now Sinema is also making big bucks but she's also a nut case with less shame than Trump. That's right. Less shame than Trump. Rick Wilson and the Lincoln Project need to roast her stinking ass.

'Mr President, this is screwed up': Sen. Manchin reveals Joe Biden agreed that his IRS snooping proposal is 'messed up' and says it will likely be removed from the spending bill

Manchin and Sinema are off the hook. The Young Turks say to sink the bill

‘VOTE NO’: Cenk Uygur Calls on Progressives to Reject ‘Bulls*** Cheerleading’ Over ‘Gutted’ Spending Bill

[quote] Cenk Uygur ran in a special election to the U.S. House to represent California's 25th Congressional District. He lost in the special primary on March 3, 2020.

[quote] Uygur also ran for election to the U.S. House to represent California's 25th Congressional District. He lost in the primary on March 3, 2020.

[quote] Uygur was a candidate in two 2020 races for the seat: the regular election and the special election. The primaries for both elections took place on March 3, 2020.

And this may be why his open is irrelevant.

^^^opinion

Didn't she grow up lower middle class and spend years as the poorest member of Congress. Would those things be related?

All I know is that I'm sick of looking at Sinema's Vulcan ears.

You boys are SO fickle

-------------------

We are going to make Kyrsten Sinema the next senator from Arizona

LGBT of AZ (or wherever you are) get ready to send Congresswoman Sinema to the senate! She's going to steamroll right over Jeff Flake. It's never too early to start organizing! Follow her on Twitter at @repsinema and tell everyone you know about her. She's smart, sensible, and hardworking. Get ready to volunteer!

[quote]I’d like to see lower prescription prices, but the way to do it is to force European countries to pay more.

You said that wrong. What you really mean is, "I'd like to see European countries subsidize American prescription costs".

America doesn't subsidize the drug costs for other countries, those drug companies still make a fortune in those countries, just not as big as the fortune they earn in America. They barely pay any taxes in America too

America likes paying more than any other country on earth for prescriptions.

Europe has nothing to do with this. American politicians fuck over the citizens every chance they get. And after all this time, you would think the democrats would have explained how the republicans made it a law that FORCES taxpayers to pay full price for all billions of Medicare prescriptions it pays for. But they can't be bothered

R108, and don't forget that because those congressional whores are so in the pocket of big pharma that they stopped people from going to Canada to get cheaper drugs claiming they (congress) couldn't be sure the drugs were safe. BULL. SHIT

R107, you’ll have to forgive us. We weren’t yet aware that she was a Green Party spook operating in proximity to Jill Stein and Tulsi Gabbard.

R100, " Manchin and Sinema are making it impossible to pass the Build Back Better bill by demanding things be cut that are integral ton the bill and popular with the majority of Democrats and Republicans."

That was funny. If the bill was indeed 'popular with the majority of Democrats and Republicans', it would've passed 2 months ago. It's not at all popular with Republicans -- in fact, they'll use it to demonize Dems as 'socialists', and it's barely popular with Democrats. If you have stats/proof that say otherwise, please post the link.

Biden won, not because he was/is an extreme left-winger, but because he was a moderate.

Maybe they could stop trying to stuff everything into gigantic bills and pass shit one thing at a time, then Manchin and Sinema could just vote for the stuff they agree with and leave the rest and we wouldn’t have to hear for weeks on end how it’s the eNd oF dEmOcRaCy that the giant bill full of crap can’t pass.

And I know both parties do this, and they both need to cut it out.

[quote] It's not at all popular with Republicans -- in fact, they'll use it to demonize Dems as 'socialists', and it's barely popular with Democrats.

I can’t say whether I like it or not because they’ve done a horrible job selling it. I think nobody except the most extreme political junkies even know what’s in it. You’d think Nancy would have learned her lesson from “we have to pass it to find out what’s in it.”

We just hope the $3 billion “tree equity” portion of the bill survives

R112, you don’t understand. They can’t “pass shit one thing at a time” because each bill would be filibustered. They have to do it this way in an omnibus reconciliation bill to avoid a filibuster. But they need all 50 Democratic senators to agree on one final bill because they cannot get any Republican votes.

Tree equity makes sense on a lot of levels, when you take time to avoid the headline. The problem is the progressives insist on wrapping all their ideas up in language that in fact makes them sound like loopy wastes of money. Honestly, their unique talent for avoiding plain, sensible language makes everything twice as hard and take twice as long. One of Biden's strengths in the last election was he talked like regular people. We can do it, man sounds a hell of a lot more credible than tree fucking equity. God, we get in our own way.

R115 then they would force republicans into filibustering popular things and the American people would rightly see the republicans as obstructionist. The Republicans can filibuster this and nobody except the most dedicated democrats care because they have no idea what’s in it.

Yes, wise to put a lot of confidence in the majority of the American people to see things rightly.

MARY @ r119

R117. You putz! Douchenozzle. The plan has 70 some % approval in West Virginia-Manchin's state. Mark Keelly in Arizona supports it as do many Arizonans. The Sinemanson are tag teaming the defeat of this bill, the voting rights bill also-which they claim to support. Sinema was a no show for the vote on a Jan. 6 commission.. I won't go into all the bitches crimes against fashion but she is a psycho cunt who will be holding hands with herself in a strait jacket sooner than later. The biker chick outfit she wore yesterday with the greasy hair flip and the glance into her phone to check her look and then a thumbs up to a Republican colleague...Noel Castler is right-she is giving the middle finger to the poor and middle class families struggling with the pandemic, ...This whole sad sick episode won't end well for anyone. But maybe Moscow Mitch.

“Sinema was a no show for the vote on a Jan. 6 commission.”

Really?

Why wasn’t more made of this?

She is clearly a spook working for overseas interests.

Nah, R122. She's a Koch whore.

Twitter Tcomedy

Somehow the Koch agenda and the international anti-American cabal have merged.

I don’t understand it and it’s not going to be printed in the NYTimes.

But somehow they began working together around 2013/2014 era.

[quote] Biden won, not because he was/is an extreme left-winger, but because he was a moderate

Biden won because he wasn't trump. And that's the only reason

Manchin says everyone in America with zero tax liability should pay a "patriotic tax"

Here's a bit of perspective:

When you're catching shade from someone most people have forgotten is still alive...

Alas, R128, that perspective is going to be lost on too many DLers.

R130. But the Republicans are refusing to pass or even allow debate on Voting Rights and they refuse to confirm any of Biden's nominees for ambassadorships. And they won't support Democrats on raising the debt ceiling. It just gets worse and worse and 1 Red state with a Fake Democrat Senator-who votes 70 % of the time with Repubs isn't good. Plus we have that creepy shit head Sinema in the senate who is best buds with Repubs and shits all over the Democrats. She's a plant, I'm convinced. We are so screwed. And the Republicans won't get blamed for any of this-they will take advantage of our weakness and chaos.

"NRSC Chair Rick Scott tells reporters he thinks Kyrsten Sinema’s positioning is helping the GOP push to defeat Kelly in 2022. “Mark Kelly’s getting defined every day because he’s so different than Sinema… does whatever Schumer tells him to do. So yeah, I think it’s helping us.”

Part of Kristin’s Green Party, anti-American, “let’s troll the U.S. to their faces” shtick is to humiliate the US democracy and make it look like a farce and a circus. Kristin is doing a specific job. And that is to help unravel democracy in real time.

[quote] Red state with a Fake Democrat Senator-who votes 70 % of the time with Repubs isn't good.

Nor is lying about it. Liars get cancer.

R126, perhaps. But keep in mind that it took days for Biden to win, in what should've been a blowout. There's a reason why Sanders lost, and why AOC is SO unpopular in the overwhelming majority of the country.

R135, funny how the people who hate socialists the most depend on them for their very survival. I only wish shit states with no money were made to live their Republican votes. All of those states would shrivel up and die if not for "socialists."

[quote]Alas, [R128], that perspective is going to be lost on too many DLers.

Eh, the problem is when we constantly play the "what if" game it has a tendency to move us further and further from what is or what we would want it to be.

None of what that man said at R128 can happen. What happened is history now. It's set in stone.

What we do have some control over is what we can do now and what we want now.

Yes, if the right controlled both houses things could have been horrible but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to focus on what we want improved now and what we want going forward. That isn't set in stone. That can be changed.

Billy House--Congressional correspondent for Bloomberg News

[quote] Just told that Rules Meeting that committee members had been told to occur at noon -- has been postponed and members are now on a one-hour notice; some lawmakers say Pelosi wants framework somehow put into bill form, for some floor action, along with the infra bill being whipped

Apparently Mitt Romney is at work dressed as Ted Lasso today.

You can only pressure an elected official so much. A study on party switching found that most of the time, party switchers did so because they were treated like shit in their own caucus.

This is Outside of say, 1994, when many Southern and conservative Democrats switched parties after the Republican takeover.

R140, when they don't stand for even the most basic tenets of a party's platform, what is the point in their being a member?

And context matters. Racist fucks in the south being their usual, awful selves is no surprise.

R141, would you really want Manchin - a gift from the heavens in my book - to switch parties & make McConnell Majority Leader?!

Biden is trying his best. Republicans are smearing him at every turn.

[quote] Biden is trying his best. Republicans are smearing him at every turn.

I see them standing back and just letting Biden disintegrate on his own.

Isn't Manchin uber-devout, anti-abortion Catholic...(crook)?

[bold] Pope Francis has urged world leaders to take “radical decisions” [/bold]

[quote] He said: “Climate change and the Covid-19 pandemic have exposed our deep vulnerability and raised numerous doubts and concerns about our economic systems and the way we organise our societies.

[quote] “We have lost our sense of security, and are experiencing a sense of powerlessness and loss of control over our lives. We find ourselves increasingly frail and even fearful.”

[quote] A succession of crises relating to healthcare, the environment, food supplies and the economy were “profoundly interconnected”, he said. “They also forecast a perfect storm that could rupture the bonds holding our society together.”

[quote] Every crisis called for “vision, the ability to formulate plans and put them rapidly into action, to rethink the future of the world, our common home, and to reassess our common purpose. These crises present us with the need to take decisions, radical decisions that are not always easy. At the same time, moments of difficulty like these also present opportunities, opportunities that we must not waste.

[quote] “We can confront these crises by retreating into isolationism, protectionism and exploitation. Or we can see in them a real chance for change, a genuine moment of conversion, and not simply in a spiritual sense.”

[quote] This could only be pursued through “a renewed sense of shared responsibility for our world, and an effective solidarity based on justice, a sense of our common destiny and a recognition of the unity of our human family in God’s plan for the world”.

[quote]I see them standing back and just letting Biden disintegrate on his own.

No, they're not standing back, you liar. They're roadblocking tons of cabinet positions that Biden can't fill specifically because the GOP is an anti-American party of fascist, craven scum who would rather see this country fail than actually work to help it get back on its feet after that orange pile of shit spread his hate, corruption and lies like a cancer over this country.

Do you knowing lie to yourself about what the GOP is currently doing? Are you that loathsome?

With his track record, Biden having more of his Cabinet picks in office would only hurt him.

Sure, R147. Having actual qualified people rather than Eric Trump's wedding planner should really hurt Biden.

Seriously, WTF is wrong with you? Why do you just say dumb shit?

Biden is his own worst enemy.

[quote] qualified people rather than Eric Trump's wedding planner

I had forgotten about her, R148. The one who actually got the punishment Smellyanne and Kayliely deserve.

OP, would you like them to leave the Democratic Party so that the republicans have the senate?

Not all democratic politicians are going to be posturing wokesters. Some might even be — GASP — more conservative than mainstream democrats.

Politics is the art of the possible. Instead of impotently posturing about CRAZED OUTRAGE that Manchin doesn’t like your Pronouns Law or whatever treasured pet issue we want to advance, find something to move ahead with successfully.

That’s how one governs in a democracy.

[quote]Not all democratic politicians are going to be posturing wokesters

How is paid leave about being woke?

How is the right to vote about being woke?

How is finally making billionaires pay their fair share about being woke?

How is attempting to combat climate change about being woke?

How is dental for seniors about being woke?

Let me add that it really and truly is nauseating seeing assholes constantly using "woke" for every fucking thing that has nothing to do with woke. Jesus Christ, give it a fucking rest. None of the fucking legislation being proposed has anything to do with your tiresome red-herring "woke."

Biden should just resign at this point - shrug his shoulders and say that he tried

[quote] Biden should just resign at this point

Biden is responsible for making Kamala the VP. It would be unconscionable for him to leave that mess in charge.

R151. Neither Manchin or Sinema are blocking any of the Build Back Better bill out of principle-it's out of loyalty to their corporate donors you halfwit. They are both greedy whores. And yes. To whoever said Manchin is supposedly a good Catholic he 's as big a crook and thief as anybody at the Vatican. He's a POS. Jon Meacham the historian said last night that it's a miracle Biden has gotten as much done as has with the tiny margin he has a in Congress. And don't get me started on Sinema. A certain Utah Mormon senator better watch his back-this bitch could easily boil a bunny if he rejects her.

Call out the people who supported and voted for them. They were known quantities when they ran for office.

R157, good luck in finding a preferable Democrat in WV who can crack better than 35-40% of the statewide vote.

“They were known quantities when they ran for office.”

Kristin was the exact opposite of a known quantity. She made a 180. I’m sick of these stupid comments with no links that make no sense.

R159, these people lie with ease. They just repeat the lies over and over again. They have no conscience.

R141 Majority leader schedules the votes. If McConnell was majority leader and Biden had 49 Democrats and 20 republicans behind his infrastructure bill, guess what? NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN. Wouldn't fucking matter because Mitch McConnell would never bring it up for a vote.

Back in the day with more cooperation and more fluid parties, there was a lot of trading--you support me on this, I'll give you a vote on that. Those days are over. Being in the minority is sitting with your thumb up your ass until your party gets the majority again.

TUESDAY, BITCHES!