Nicholas & Alexandra (1971)

Big story, weak lead characters.

The director was a hack (didn't he do that kids movie called 'The Vikings')

It suffered from Otto Preminger syndrome with an army of stars in supporting roles who inevitably overwhelm the two unknown actors playing the two weak central characters.

The two central characters were entirely unempathic and unsympathetic. The person playing Rasputin was a nobody, wasn't he?

Very few Non-Russian films can capture the weird, strange vastness of Russia. Even David Lean's vastly superior film of Zhivago (filmed in Spain) could capture any of the stench of Russia.

OP, what are you blabbering about?

Please stop drinking so early in the day.

If you like the movie, how sweet. And everyone who did it is dead or too old to care.

Did you ever think that maybe American audiences didn't care to see a leaden costume picture about Russian royalty and revolution where the end kills off the eponymous characters and their children?

Now shoo. Enough threads about a stultifying movie. And don't switch to "Anne of the Thousand Days" or "Return of the Fly."

R1 Good point. Redgrave, Olivier, and Porter were practically on vacation while filming their parts.

R2 I am an American and I like this movie? Why are you so rude?

I like the movie too.

[quote] Did you ever think that maybe American audiences didn't care to see a leaden costume picture about Russian royalty

There are millions who are fascinated by the Romanov's family, jewellery and clothing.

We've had a few threads on them here.

Nicholas was kind of cute, but of course a cute man may be a lousy, insensitive politician and obviously he and his batty wife enfuriated the starving hordes across the vast tundras etc etc.

[quote] There are millions who are fascinated by the Romanov's family

The Robert K. Massie book the film was based on was a huge bestseller.

I love the movie, but I love historical epics in general, above any other genre.

R6 Me too. Me too. What's your favorite?

I lay some of the blame on Sam Spiegal (who I assume was somewhat of a vulgarian and who definitely suffered with Otto Preminger syndrome R1).

He would load a cast with people who were ethnically wrong for the part.

Bill Holden and his female floozy did NOT belong in a story about Britons in 'Bridge on the River Kwai'. Americans Bogart and Hepburn were out of place in the English 'African Queen.

He had the dull Englishman John Gregson playing a Nazi in 'Night of the Generals' and Jack Hawkins is incapable of playing a Russian in this film.

It’s worth seeing for the production design alone (and the wonderful soundtrack). But it had no point of view. We saw historical events re-enacted, but nothing more. It’s a fascinating curio, but why was it made?

My favorite historical epics:

Doctor Zhivago

Titanic

Ben-Hur

Once Upon a Time in the West

The English Patient

The Leopard

Indochine

I recently saw a Russian epic about the Red Terror called Sunstroke (2014) and loved it. Currently available on Amazon Prime.

I watched it as a young teen. Wanted to love it. Lush production, great costumes, wonderful sets. Nonetheless, the movie left me cold.

As I recall, my problems with the movie boiled down to the lead actors not being interesting enough or strong enough to be the center of a movie. Also, the movie made major assumptions that the audience knew the intricacies of the Russian history and didn't explain a lot of details. I was left scratching my head over many of the plot details.

I should rewatch the movie and see how I respond to it now. Thanks for starting the thread.

Well, the book was a big hit with American readers, r2.

[quote] But it had no point of view.

R9 Perhaps the film-makers were following the book's political view?

Edward Bond who co-wrote the script was a hard-boiled Socialist wrote some very turgid unperformed plays.

Sam Spiegel, Schaffner and lots of the people behind the camera were the usual Polish/Eastern European Jews.

the end

Tentpole movie. Too much studio interference?

I get a kick out of Doctor Who as Rasputin.

"Titanic" was not an "historical epic." If was an action picture that was centered around an insipid, hackneyed love story. Neither was "The English Patient." "The English Patient" too was centered around a soppy love story and it bore little semblance to history. The dashing, handsome romantic hero who unwittingly gives war secrets to the Germans in order to save the life of the woman he loves was based on a real person, Count Laszlo de Almasy. But in reality he was an unprepossessing homosexual Nazi collaborator who died of dysentery.

Netflix has a 6-part docudrama called the Last Czars. It explains the history of Nicholas II and the events leading up to the Russian Revoluation very well. Re-creates many scenes and personalizes Nicholas and Alexandra at the same time.

If you want a nice primer of that era of Russian history, this is fascinating and very watchable.

'Nicholas & Alexandra' is an historical epic. It was a rather lifeless one with lots of Englishmen in fabulous costumes posing and posturing in a pageant or what they used to call 'tableau vivant' or poses plastique'.

But, it did have one genuinely dramatic and creepy scene when the czar cries like a baby in the arms of Dame Irene Worth pretending to be the Queen Mother Marie Fedorovna.

Good stuff. Keep it going.

So, who was the best performance in the movie? I say Michael Redgrave as the Secretary of State character.

[quote] the Secretary of State character.

I forgot seeing him. What did he do?

R21 He made the announcement that German declared war on Russia. He tried to get rid of Rasputin. Told Nicholas that Alexandra should not be ruling while he was away. Really a background character but he is played by Sir Michael Redgrave so it is an absolute joy to watch.

^ I adore Michael Redgrave.

He was genuine actor of quality from 1940 to 1958.

He was a movie idol starring opposite Rosallnd Russell in 1947. But unfortunately illness and his muddled private life ruined him from 1958 until his death.

Redgrave is absolutely heart-breaking in The Browning Version

Romanov Rigor Mortis

Loved Tom Baker as Rasputin. He had a great "theatrical voice" Went on to be Dr. Who.

R23 I disagree. He had a stellar career up until he died in the 1980's. He had Parkinson's Disease.

R17, you have your definition of historical epic and I have mine.

The Romanov family walked out of the premier. Bob Massie told me he was was horrified how they changed the story, when there was no need to. They could have filmed in Finland and it would have looked more like Russia. In Tobolsk they lived in a neoclassical Governors Palace, not a cabin. They brought lots of stuff from the Alexander Palace with them and lived in luxury there. Yekaterinburg in the film looked NOTHING like Siberia. Grand Duke Dmitri was not gay, Prince Yussupov was even more strange than he was in the film. Grand Duke Dmitri's family was really upset with the film. The scenes in the factories looked nothing like Russian ones. All of the religious scenes were wrong and didn't look Orthodox. The icons and the icon lamps were wrong. Tom Baker, who played Rasputin, was excellent. The Romanov party at Grand Duke Nicholas's was excellent and the jewels were gaudy and chunky, the pearls were huge and very nice. Janet Suzman nailed Alexandra's voice and mannerisms. She got advice from people who knew her and heard her voice. Michael Jayston was great as Nicholas. There is a fantastic movie made in Russia on Nicholas and Alexandra that is absolutely perfect. There is a version on line with English subtitles. Watch it! There is a link below.

This film got six Oscar noms -including Best Picture- and won two. The National Board of Review named it one of the Top 10 Films of the Year.

We should all make such flops!

R29 What part of "not a documentary " did you not get?

The score by Sir Richard Rodney Bennett and the London Philharmonic was the best thing about the film

What an incredible story. Nicholas and Alexandra marry; it is a love match and they are crazy in love with each other. And they destroy a 300 year old dynasty! They had to be two of the biggest fuck up in the history of the world.

They'll be many, many more attempts, but honestly everyone should stop and do Lenin instead. Just for novelty's sake. Also, he did kind of win and affected history more as it turned out. I know Russian royalty in its last days is kind of irresistible, but resist anyway.

Allowing for the drama part of dramatic license, it was a fairly historically accurate film. Since the church made the Romanovs "saints" the hagiographic revisionist schmaltz machine has been merching their "martyrdom". Mostly to filch the religious frau tourist buck. The family made it easy since they left behind over 50,000 "heartwarming" selfies. Pretty white girls in white dresses always sell. Nicholas was a hen pecked dimwit under the thumb of his hysterical religious kook of a wife. He had 23 years of chances to reform Russia. He chose to hide in his palace and go yachting while 6 million men ,women and children died .The million Jews he killed or had deported or sent to Siberia were a mere trifle. There was a reason the Romanovs wound up in that cellar and Tsar Nicky was it.

Best line in the film:

" Nicky millions will die and all because you can't say NO to your wife"

[quote] Grand Duke Dmitri's family was really upset with the film.

I'm not surprised, R29.

They haven't made a good movie of my life yet but I get upset when newspapers misquote me, make assumptions about my private life and my television interviews get cut down a few sentences.

Jan

^ Suzman was from South Africa and then built up to be another Glenda Jackson.

But both were unappealing.

R34 I should have worn pretty hats.

In 7th grade, I did a two-session book report on the book this film was based upon (see link). Talk about a gayling, JEEZ. What other boy does a two-session book report about the last emperor and empress of Russia>

[quote] They had to be two of the biggest fuck up in the history of the world.

R33 What you say may be true but Nicholas was beholden to Alexandra and she was determined to save her son by obeying the satanic Rasputin.

This family was a victim of circumstance. The trailer for this appalling bad, anachronistic movie describes their situation as "the startling monarchial scandal of all time".

Irene Worth's scene as the Dowager Empress telling her son to banish Rasputin and crush the revolutionaries is my favorite.

"Do you believe that, Nicky?!"

R41, I can’t believe it. I did the same thing!

Alix is a key. She should be played by someone who can bring unstability to her face. The family lived around her. Very sensitive yet stubborn woman, who refused to take advices from anyone except Rasputin. R19 Nicky cried in the arms of Alix right after he arrived at Alexander Palace from the front as an ex. It is unknown if he cried when he met his mother right after abdication.

Alix is stubborn but desperate because her only son was bleeding to death before her eyes.

I saw it in the theater as a gayling and was transfixed. Watched it again as an adult on laserdisc and found it ponderous.

Fun fact: Alix's sister Victoria was the late Prince Phillip's grandmother. Her daughter, Princess Alice of Battenberg was Phil's mum, making Alix Phil's great aunt.

Fun fact: The ONLY thing the film got right was having Nicky and Alix speaking English to one another. It was their only common language, in which they also corresponded.

The problem was that it was basically cliff notes on the book. The vast background of Russian history that led up to this tragedy couldn't possibly have gotten adequate time onscreen. So the film lost something on the way of grandeur and came off as grand soap opera.

The book was excellent.

Any treatment of Nicholas and Alexandra much less the Romanov family aside from print needs to be a mini series. Something like what has been done with the Tudors or other BRF.

Simon Sebag Montefiore produced an excellent book on history of Romanovs covering beginning and end of dynasty.

We don't need to go back to 1613, but starting sometime around 1878 with death of Princess Alice of the United Kingdom and effects it had upon young Princess Alix.

Queen Victoria, Alexander III of Russia, Maria Feodorovna, and many others in royal families across Europe saw the match of Nicholas and Alexandra as a huge mistake. Alexander III flatly told his son and heir to look elsewhere as Princess Alix simply would not do. Nicholas told his parents if he couldn't marry Alix at once, he would wait until becoming tsar and marry her then. As it turned out that event happened far sooner than anyone expected.

Not since Princess Maria Antonia of Austria was shipped off to France to become consort of the Dauphin of France has there been such an unsuited choice

Princess Alix was a mere child when her mother died. That trauma was bad enough, but her grandmother Queen Victoria stepped in to over see the child's upbringing.

When Alix wasn't in England at her grandmother's court, a flurry of communications from England to Hesse-Darmstadt carried Queen Victoria's instructions. Result was Alix grew into a young woman who was an English lady fortified with strong dose of Prussian values. Unfortunately the Imperial Court at St. Petersburg had no use for "ladies" English or otherwise.

Alix was painfully shy, something many Russians and others who didn't know the woman took to her being aloof and cold.

Alix would glance down receiving lines to count number of persons, totally anxious to get things over with and retreat back to her apartments. Romanov and high born Russian women were like "who the fuck does this German princess think she is?".

Like many English ladies Alix was a bit of a prude. Goings on at high living Court of St. Petersburg scandalized Alix as newly arrived princess engaged to the heir.

At a ball given in honor of Nicholas and Alix's pending marriage the latter was shocked at amount of cleavage exposed by Russian ladies whose gowns had rather low decolletage. Upon spying one particular grievous example Princess Alix dispatched one of her ladies to convey this message:

"Her royal highness wishes me to inform you that at Hesse-Darmstadt we do not wear our gowns that way"

The Russian lady shot back "Tell her royal highness at St. Petersburg we do!". At which she yanked the bodice of her down down lower exposing yet more bosom and continued dancing.

End result was for this and other reasons Nicholas and Alexandra withdrew into their own little "English family" world. Even members of the close Romanov family complained they felt Alix was keeping them from seeing the Tsar.

When the family did travel it was usually just to another of their palaces where again Nicholas II, his wife and children largely kept to themselves.

This self imposed or whatever isolation was one reason things ended so badly for Nicholas II and his family. Alexandra wouldn't leave Tsarsko Selo with her children during the war for another distant (and perhaps safer) property. Of course then the children all came down with measles and Alix doubled down on them being moved.

I enjoyed the film, flaws and Oscar nominations and all. The creepiest element is the old man who greets them when they arrive at their final destination, is friendly to them even if he obviously has an agenda, and whom I believe is the first to pull the trigger.

It is kind of funny. Of the three big royal losers: Charles I of England, Louis XVI in France, and our Nicky, Charles was probably the smartest but seemed to be the one who did the most who destroy himself. Louis and Nicky do seem like they were just there when the big wheel of history decided to turn on them. Neither was the brightest bulb in the drawer, and the wives weren't any help. But it's Charles that fascinates me the most, because his stubbornness and nonsense doomed him.

Louis and Nicky, and I just don't know what they could have done when that big wheel just turns in your direction.

The story of the Russian revolution is complex. It would need a TV series of several seasons. You can’t begin to fit all that into a movie. The series would have to start with Nicholas’s grandfather being assassinated. Then move on to Nicholas father decided to crack down on reform, because he believed that his father was assassinated because he was weak. Nicholas was very influenced by his father. Nicholas was brought up very spartanly, along with his beloved brother George, who gradually faded out of his life until he died.

You have to flesh out Alexandra’s early life. Her rambunctious, hemophiliac brother accidentally falling through a window in his mother’s bedroom, bleeding to death in front of her eyes. The household was hit by diphtheria and all of them were very sick. Alexandra’s mother Alice tended to all the children while being sick herself. The strain overwhelmed her and she died of the disease, as did her daughter Princess May. All of the familiar clothes, books, toys had to be burned because they were believed to be disease vectors.

And that would be the end of one of the episodes. Six year old Alexandra watching her childhood burn.

An other line I like in the film:

In house arrest exile Alexandra says at one point, "I wish I knew what I did wrong."

[quote] Fun fact: The ONLY thing the film got right was having Nicky and Alix speaking English to one another. It was their only common language

Yes, they spoke English to each other and Alix also spoke English to their children. Alix wrote letters almost exclusively in English to family members regardless of their native tongues. She seldom wrote in German to her German relatives using English instead. But, it wasn't their only common language. Nicholas and Alexandra were both fluent in French, but it wasn't used in their home life.

Michael Jayston and Nicholas II were both super hot.

Nicholas can do no wrong with those looks.

In other dramatizations of Alix, she is usually portrayed as speaking English with a heavy German accent. Her first language was English and she was raised by English nannies, so she didn't speak it with a German accent.

[quote]Nicholas was kind of cute

He was a fucking sex god!!!!!! (Until he aged rapidly).

The book is fabulous. FAB-U-LOUS.

The movie, apart from the wonderful gowns by WhatsHerName, hasn't aged well at all.

Nicholas II had a hot ass, but he couldn't live forever.

As Pauline Cunt Kael wrote: it was most unsplendiferous Russian court in cinematic history. Sam Spiegel definitely cut costs. Not one balls-out grand ball in the whole shebang. What was there to revolt about? A small bejewelled dinner? Oooh.

R60 There was a ball in the beginning? When Rasputin met Alexandra

Nicholas was hot but naive and totally unsuitable to run country. If possible his first daughter Olga would have made good empress but it was impossible due laws. Olga as an heiress would have taken lots of pressure off from Alix and she might have been less hysterical.

Nicholas was considered arguably the handsomest Royal of his time. Most commented on his soulful deep blue eyes. He was what would be termed today a gym-bunny. He constantly was exercising. Hiking, swimming, chopping wood. He craved physical activity. Even had a chin- up bar installed on his train. When the Bolsheviks were burying his nude body they commented on his strong physique and firm muscles. Sadly while his father was 6'4 and the rest of the males in his family were over 6'. Little Nicky was a mere 5'7 with short legs. Even Alexandra was taller than her husband. He once remarked ruefully "Who want's to take orders from a midget ?."

The Hesse-Darmstadt sisters Alexandra and Elizabeth were both religious nuts. Perhaps it ran in their blood along with hemophilia. Elizabeth became a nun after they blew up her sadistic gay hubby. The Bolsheviks threw her down a mineshaft alive where she starved to death,. The Russian Orthodox church made Elizabeth a full fledged 'saint' while her sister Alexandra only was made a "matyr". That would have pissed Alexandra off. BTW their brother Ernest was as queer as a 3 ruble bill.

Nicholas was Tsar for 21 years - can you imagine the stress and strain of the job. Terrorists were after him all the time, Alexandra never knew if he would return home at the end of the day. Nicholas had seen his grandfather, Alexander II bleeding and dying in the Winter Palace after his carriage was blown up. There were many plots against Nicholas, Alexandra and their children. Terrorists got into the Winter Palace and put explosives under the floor of their dining room. They planed to blow up Nicholas and his whole family. In the end they were brutally murdered by Lenin. The children knew they would be killed. Can you imagine what that was like for Nicholas and Alexandra!

^ Can you imagine what is was like to be ruled by them?

Alexandra's sister Grand Duchess Elizabeth was considered one of the great beauties of her day. She and Alexandra were very close and in fact she talked her sister into marrying Nicholas. After her husband was killed by a bomb she became a nun. She renounced all worldly goods even sold her jewels to raise money for the poor. Her monastery in Moscow help thousands of poor and soldiers during the war. Elizabeth fell out with Alexandra when she warned her about the evil and corrupt Rasputin. Elizabeth was the last warning to Alexandra of the revolution but the Empress was so enamored of Rasputin she drove her sister away as Elizabeth said "like a dog." She died a hedious death and became a Saint and was buried in Jerusalem.

^^ Bitch had it coming.

Oh, my God r68

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this: screenplay by James Goldman, who also wrote Follies the same year, 1971.

Alexandra's line about wringing wet panties was cut and later given to Phyllis, r70.

R66 Karma

This LIFE magazine piqued my interest in the Romanovs...

It has a 7.2 rating on imdb which is probably above average. That doesn't seem like a failure of a movie.

It's also currently available on Amazon Prime if you want to watch it.

Agree with others that it's a by-the-numbers historical epic. I like Suzman, but have always found Jayston to be a very dull actor - the one time I thought he was effective was as the dull, passive son in the film of Pinter's THE HOMECOMING.

Franklin Shaffner made a few good films, but he was really just a talented TV director who was only as good as the scripts he got.

Welcome Back, Ingrid!!!

Russians are weird.

R76 You can name another Jayston film. Can anyone name another Suzman film?

These two people were chosen for their physical likeness rather than for any inmate talent.

They weren't chosen for their 'star quality' nor for their 'box office pulling power'.

So therefor they also should take some of the blame for this film's failure.

R3, we know exactly who you are.

But you apparently don't know where you are, Missy. This is the DataLounge. We don't need your oh-so-careful detailed lists of a movie's components - we know the movie quite well, after so many threads about it if not before. And we certainly are not interested in someone saying that she LOVES the movie without any reasonable explanation.

Sorry if you grew up in a special home where you got a gold star for making a poopie. Anything I said was less rude than your clueless, Frau-worthy presumption and cluelessness.

And of course keep hovering. Like a fly over.... well, that field was covered already.

[quote] Can anyone name another Suzman film?

Voyage of the Damned (1976). However, iirc, Suzman appears and is gone before her name even appears in the opening credits.

Suzman was in that dreary film called 'Joe Egg' with Alan Bates which I've even studiously avoiding for 30 years.

Her jackdaw face means she's typecast playing bitches.

I beg your pardon?

Suzman has a jaw shaped like the bow of a Dreadnought.

Suzman was primarily a stage actress -- lots of Shakespeare, Beckett, Brecht, the other usual suspects. She's good as Alexandra, and may make the character too sympathetic.

This thread has inspired me to reread the book!

Janet's Hedda...

[quote] I saw it in the theater as a gayling and was transfixed.

Did you see the transvestite murder Rasputin (or am I confusing this with another Rasputin movie)?

r88, this is the movie. The scene also features sexy Richard Warwick as Count Dmitri.

Richard was so cute.

[quote] I saw it in the theater as a gayling and was transfixed.

I knew at once that I was destined to be Tsar of Russia. The ending was something of a letdown.

Massie's biography of Peter the Great is also exciting history. He and his first wife wrote an excellent memoir about raising a son with hemophilia in the 1950s, before better medical treatments developed.

I remember Janet spitting out a load of semen after giving someone a blowjob in The Draughtsman Contract.

^ The Draughtsman's Contract, sorry.

Didn't she play a haughty bitch in The Draughtsman's Contract?

R87 That Suzman version of 'Hedda' may be in colour but Ingrid's version had Michael Redgrave, Ralph Richardson, Ursula Jeans and Trevor Howard.

It's a bleak play about an angry woman in an unsatisfactory life but the actors play the scenes like an experienced string quartet play a much-loved string quartet. Superbly!

Hedda's a pill. At least in Ingrid's hands she's a luminous one.

Speaking of The Draughtsman's contract, we really need to do a thread on Peter Greenaway films

Previous thread:

It even has Brian Cox playing Trotsky.

From "Doctor Zhivago" I learned that Russians speak with British accents.

I love the movie, because I love Russian history. Their story and reading Massie's work inspired me to become an historian. I have a DVD of the movie, and I have watched it numerous times.

That said, the film is mediocre at best. Janet Suzman is a terrific actress, but her performance in this film is stilted. Michael Jayston portrays Nicholas as hesitant and unsure of himself...very true to the man, but it's incredibly dull.

R67, the sisters were pretty much estranged by the time of the Revolution. BTW, Elizabeth's husband was in all probability a closeted, gay man.

Pretty hot in his youth:

Because of their tragic ending Nicholas II, his wife and children tend to suck up much of the air in room about Romanov family. However that dynasty and at least two preceding the Romanovs have several others worth looking into.

Boris Godunov. Michael of Russia for a start....

Boris Godunov at least got an opera...

R79, Suzman played Freida Lawrence to Ian McKellen's D.H. Lawrence in PRIEST OF LOVE, and the wife of Donald Sutherland in A DRY WHITE SEASON.

Am sure most on DL know this, but for those who don't when performed fully and properly Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture is one of few if times one will hear God Preserve Thy People and God Save the Tsar.

The piece celebrates Russia's victory over armies of Napoléon.

R105 an opera with some thrilling moments in it.

I agree r104. I wish somebody would do Romanovs BETWEEN Catherine the Great and Nicky. Just those forgotten Romanovs, and the way Russia developed in the 19th century setting the stage for the tragedy to come.

Or at least just do Alexander I, who I think was very interesting in his own way, especially with his weird little triangle with his wife and best friend, and his mystical tendencies, and his war with Napoleon. Honestly, just a lot to work with, but it all gets swallowed up in the Catherine the Great or Nicky and Alexandra only mentality that Hollywood has.

I read the book on which the movie was based, and I came away thinking that N&A had an unparalleled genius for doing the wrong thing for the right reason. Many of the unpopular things they did were done with good intentions and were not recieved in that spirit, and they never learned. To the end, they were doing the wrong thing for the right reason, like making Rasputin part of their inner circle. Of course that wasnt all they did wrong, the other half of their mistakes were made in the name of "preserving the autocracy", the absolute power of the Tsardom, which of course led them to do wrong things in an indefensible cause.

The movie might have been better if it'd gone with the wrong-thing- right-reason angle, or any real POV. As it was, there was just an unempathdtic playing out of historical events.

Not sure about that with Rasputin r110. In his weird way, he did calm down the heir and at times did seem to have some odd ability to get his hemophilia to go into remission, or whatever it was. And I see how Alexandra would become wildly attached to him for that reason and refuse to listen to anyone else about him. But I'm not sure he was ever the "right thing" for Russia. Although I will give him big credit for something else as well: he did tell them to stay out of that stupid World War, so I have to admit, there is that.

Princess Alix of Hesse-Darmstadt was extremely reluctant to change her religion which of course was required if she were to become Nicholas's wife and future empress.

Queen Victoria, her sister, and others worked on or with Alix to help her decide. Alix truly loved Nicholas, but her Protestant faith was important as well.

In the end Alix agreed and some might say rather sadly her conversion made Paul the Apostle's on that road to Damascus seem like a housewife having a bit of dither in Sainsburys.

Alix didn't do things by halves, once she took up a thing she through herself into it with zeal. After her conversion she became something of a super Russian Orthodox, all mystics, icons, etc... Empress Alexandra even attempted to tell/teach members of Romanov family (and others at court) about a religion they had known pretty much since childhood.

OTOH coming from a dour German Protestant faith one can see how Alix was entranced and enthralled by Russian Orthodoxy. Much like Latin Roman Catholic faith there is a richness of music and so much else that is lacking in most forms of Protestant faith.

Opening of Doctor Zhivago film grips one at once with that simple but spectacular funeral.

Now is life's artful triumph of vanities destroyed... for the spirit has vanished from its tabernacle... its clay groweth black.

The vessel is shattered, voiceless, emotionless, dead.

Committing which unto the grave, let us beseech the Lord....that He will give her eternal rest.

The best thing about the film is Freddie Young's cinematography. As in "Doctor Zhivago" (for which Young won an Oscar), Russia was played by Spain.

Spiegel originally wanted Vanessa Redgrave for Alexandra and Peter O'Toole for Rasputin. I love them both, but Suzman and Baker are very good.

R112 David Lean and Robert Bolt provided Zhivago with a strong, muscular plot and script.

But the American Shaffner (whoever he was) made this into a Europudding.

To be fair one can understand why Alexandra became the hysteric she did after Alexi's disease became known.

At each of her pregnancies like all consorts Alix hoped to produce an heir. Four times she produced girls who couldn't inherit. The empress during one of her pregnancies turned to one of her Romanov sisters in law and inquired what would happen if the Tsar died before she gave birth. Reply that came was crushing, whoever was next in line at the time... Meaning Nicholas's brother or another male relative would at once inherit leaving Alix and her daughters out.

The empress likely expected things were same as in England and most other European royal courts. There would be a period of waiting to see if consort was left pregnant, and or if she was things would be put on hold until child was born.

When Alix finally after four times at the rodeo produced a male heir there was immense joy both within immediate and extended Romanov family, Imperial Court, and Russia in general. Then came the devastating news of Alexi's hemophilia. Worse members of Romanov family (and others who knew that bit of top secret information) blamed Alix for introducing the disease to the Romanov family. By this time it was known hemophilia had affected several of Queen Victoria's grand children or great grand children....

For the empress it was likely seen as a failure of job number one for a royal consort, to produce heirs. Henry VIII went through five wives on that score. Marie-Antoinette (whom Alexandra idolized) suffered badly until she finally produced heirs....

It may seem like a minor trifle today, but for pre-WWI European royal courts this was a big deal.

Alexandra's baby making days were largely over. Best the emperor and his consort could hope for was some sort of miracle that would allow Alexi to live long enough to marry and produce heirs (who hopefully wouldn't have same disease). Keeping Alexi's condition private became huge stress and burden on Nicholas and his consort.

Keep in mind due to Romanov house rules members of that family could only contract marriages to other royalty. If word got out that Alexi was "sick" not many European royal courts would be willing to send princesses to be his bride.

Someone made a reference to Shaw's Major Barbara earlier in the thread. Kudos!

R76 Agree Jayston was a dull passive actor but he was playing a dull passive character. Perfect match.

R116 Alexandra was a hypochondriac and hysteric long before Alexis was born. The letters and diaries show her scolding him to be tough and manly the day his father died. She was a wack job from day one. The hemophilia of her son pushed her into full looney toons. It is supremely ironical the one and only time Nicholas ever showed some spine was when he stood up to his parents and demanded to marry Alexandra. For him and Russia it was the worst decision of his life.

Alix's sister Ella was married to a homosexual. He didn't fuck her, but he worshiped her and guarded her like a possession. I think it messed it her up quite a bit. By the time he was killed, Ella had turned into a vain, bitter, and self-centered woman. It's almost as if her husband's death was a release and she redirected her former shallow and frivolous life as a grand duchess into one devoted to helping the poor.

[quote] To be fair one can understand why Alexandra became the hysteric she did after Alexi's disease became known.

Alexandra had always had a morose personality and was prone to whinging and negativity. Several royal relations commented on it long before she married Nicholas. Her cousin, Princess Marie-Louise once told her that one day God would give her ordeals to face that would teach her what real misfortune was about. Queen Mary often described Alexandra as being "sullen" and "cold". Queen Mary was a bit of an iceberg herself, so if she thought Alexandra was cold, she must have been worse than Mary. Grand Duchess Xenia who survived the revolution summed up Alexandra as "selfish" and "crazy".

^ But 'Sunny" couldn't get enough uncut cocksi.

Mae's Catherine was great...

Interesting to note Putin loathes Nicholas holds him responsible for wrecking the Russian Empire. Puty loves Nicholas father Alexander III has dedicated many new monuments to him. Papa thought his son Nicky was a bit of a devochka (girlie) and had the judgement of a child. Alexander died at only 48 yo. Putin believes whole history of Russia would have been different if Alexander had lived another 20 years.

The whole Russian Royal family was killed in a cellar; bludgeoned and stabbed and shot at point blank range many times. Nobody could have survived that. But people all over the world kept popping up claiming to a surviving Russian Royal. There were several Alexeis and of course quite a few Anastasias. Of course they were all liars, but the rumors persisted. A tabloid reporter, Anthony Summers, wrote "The File on the Czar" which claimed that the Czar and Alexei were killed but Alexandra and the Grand Duchesses all survived, spirited away somewhere. Bullshit. There were two crazy queens, Peter Kurth and James Blair Lovell, who were both convinced that a psycho woman who eventually called herself Anna Anderson was indeed the Grand Duchess Anastasia. They both dearly wanted "the fairytale" and they both wrote books in which they made the case for Anderson's claim. Boy did they end up looking like idiots after DNA evidence proved that Anderson was Franziska Schanzkowska, a very mentally ill Polish factory worker.

I never understood how Anna Anderson could have fooled so many people into believing her "story." Her tale of being rescued by a Russian soldier was totally unsubstantiated and she didn't ever LOOK like Anastasia. I guess a lot of people, like her biographers Kurt and Blair Lovell just wanted the "fairytale", too.

R111, Alexandra's mistake with Rasputin wasn't inviting him treat the kid, as he did seem to help, her mistake was inaking jim a public part of the court and taking his advice on matters not related to faith healing.

Which was done largely out of gratitude and decency, the man helped her kid and she wanted to show her appreciation, but her support of him turned the public and nobility against her. She'd havd done better to keep his visits as quiet as she could, but again... she did a a wrong thing for a nice reason.

In hindsight we all know what people didn't in 1917, that WWI was not the end of things, and barley two decades later another great war would engulf not just Europe but world.

Even if by some miracle Nicholas II managed to remain on his throne Russia still would have been a disaster. In surely would not have been ready militarily or otherwise to cope with WWII. Stalin may not have been the most cuddly of world leaders but he (and his military and people) saved Russia from Hitler's Germany.

More to point changes in government and society unleashed by Lenin went long way towards paving way for Russia to fight in WWII.

Remember reading somewhere that old time Hollywood perv director Frank Schaffner was banging the ingenue Lynne Fredricks who played one of the daughters . That's why he filmed this historically inaccurate scene.

R126 You would have made a great courtier.

[quote] The whole Russian Royal family was killed in a cellar

Not so fast there hot shot. We were an Imperial family, not a mere Royal one. And the whole family was not killed in a cellar. I was not some pretender. I was the real thing-- Her IMPERIAL Highness The Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna. I escaped from Russia and ended up in Britain. My dear Cousin Georgie and his wife, May felt so bad about letting Nicky, Alix, and the children be killed, that they gave me an allowance and allowed me to live in a house next to Hampton Court Palace where I died in 1960.

Nicholas never wanted to be Tsar. He is quoted as saying that. He wanted to be left in peace with his beloved family. They were a great family but a disastrous Royal Family. Alexandra was not suited to be an Empress. Wrong people in wrong roles at the wrong time. Millions died because of miscasting.

R130 And I picked up a lot of your bling at garage sale prices.

It's interesting to see a love match go so terribly wrong. If he had been the spare instead of the heir, no one would have given a damn. But one does wonder what he saw in her

two words: Easy Rider

^ Sunny was a bobcat in the sack.

[quote] But one does wonder what he saw in her

An alliance with Great Britain

Whoa! Nicholas had a great ass!

After murdering Nicholas II, his family, children and staff their (largely Jewish) assassins began going through various trunks and other luggage/possessions in preparation for sending things back to Moscow. And or of course looting a few bits for themselves...

Among Nicholas II's things they found packets of condoms....

To think White Army was only six days away from Ekaterinburg, something Romanov jailers knew which likely hastened their demise.

Look at those who killed the Tsar and his family...

R138 Anti semitic propogandist. Was waiting for you to turn up. Only one of the shooters Jacob Yurovsky was born Jewish and he had converted to Lutheranism. The rest were Latvians (Catholics) and Russian Orthodox. Busted again Boris.

[quote] Not sure about that with Rasputin [R110]. In his weird way, he did calm down the heir and at times did seem to have some odd ability to get his hemophilia to go into remission

The first thing Rasputin did was throw everybody out of the room, which was excellent therapy. The doctors in those days were quacks and were no doubt poking & prodding Alexei, making his condition worse. Alexandra was a hysteric and was no doubt acting fearful, which is upsetting for a small, sick child to see. Everyone was worried, nobody knew how to make the bleeding stop, they were all looking & acting uncertain and stressed.

When Rasputin walked into the room he threw everyone out and very confidently told Alexei he would make him better. Alexis believed the self-confident starets, who had a special relationship with God. The rhyming chanting of prayers was a bit hypnotic and helped Alexei fall asleep, which was something he needed.

It was said Alexei’s doctors were giving him aspirin as a painkiller. Rasputin would demand an end to all medication the doctors ordered because he didn’t believe in patent medicines. This turned out to be a good thing for a hemophiliac, since aspirin is a blood thinner. Stopping aspirin helped stop the flow of blood.

The batshit "Rasputin murder party" scene is worth the price of admission. That scene had everything: giggling, bi (according to the movie, anyway), high-as-fuck Russian princes, a twink court musician doing a gypsy dance in drag, the Fourth Doctor getting poisoned, shot, and finally beaten to death with a 60-lb chain. Did I mention this was all to the strains of "Yankee Doodle" on the Victrola?

The movie also features a young Brian Cox in the tiny role of Trotsky. Cox has out of nowhere achieved sexy daddy status; the fact that he's also a sharp, deplorable-hating ultra-liberal makes him even hotter.

[quote]R62 Nicholas was hot but naive and totally unsuitable to run country.

Well, his virulent Anti-Semitism is impossible to get past, too.

It's heavy, dignified, long-winded, overstuffed and the leads are low key, realistic and dull at 3hrs8mins Viscounti's Ludwig II at 3hrs45mins and is a more compelling watch

R138 Historically inaccurate? Perhaps not. Helen Rappaport a respected historian and author of many books on the Romanovs says "Can you imagine the atmosphere in that house ( Ipatiev House). Four pretty hormonal teenage girls. A probably menopausal mother. Crammed together in two sweltering rooms with a sick brother and a 3 pack a day father who hadn't had a cigarettes in months". This girls flirted with the guards and 17 yo Marie apparently was caught in a "compromising position" with one of the younger guards who had a crush on her. They were human beings before they were "saints".

Lots of analysis here, for a pretty dull movie. Really only worth it for Rasputin's death scene, and then finally, the big ending.

Marie looks she'd play.

Peter Seller’s widow Lynne Frederick is in this, playing Tatiana.

His diehard fans see her as a rapacious gold digger, but he mainly married her because she was young and pretty, so even if that’s true it seems like a fair trade off.

He left her almost everything and that drives some people CRAZY. (She became an alcoholic who died alone at age 39, so that must bring them some solace.)

Jackie Kennedy was enthralled by the Romanovs, She was one of the first that the Soviets allowed to tour the Romanov store rooms. Her she is trying on Alexandra's ermine coat.

Luchino Visconti's "Ludwig" is worth bothering with if only to gaze at German actor Helmut Griem.

Helmut Griem never married.... One does wonder..

Oh, May R132 did you ever find out that I never even saw a penny of that money. My sister kept it all for herself. And how was I thanked for not causing a fuss that Xenia got all the money for our jewels? I was packed off to live in Godforsaken Canada. First I lived on a farm that I had to buy with what little money I had left combined with a little help from a Danish cousin and then I ended up living over a fucking bake shop where I died a few months after Xenia. At least I have the distinction of being the last real Grand Duchess to die. Don't pay any attention to that bloated Maria Vladimirovna and her even fatter son who claim to be Grand Duchess and Grand Duke. They are Euro trash.

R150 ^ Pathologically thread derailer. What part of Nicholas and Alexandra do you not get?

I'm amazed people remember this movie. It was the last of its kind. A big historical epic of the David Lean kind from a major studio. I saw it as a kid{(sneaking into the city) at the grand old Criterion theater in Times Square where it played roadshow. As in there were a limited number of performances in a week and you bought tickets in advance with assigned seating. Going to this kind of movie was a big deal as if you were going to a Broadway show. The Criterion was cut up into it seems like a 100 shoe box theaters and then became Toys R Us. I have no idea what's there now. I remember walking out of the film in a state of shock at the ending but I haven't seen it since.

Lucky Liza with Griem & Michael York

R152 I had the last laugh. Married a straight man who I adored. Had three loving sons . All who lived long lives . I liked to live simply and hated all that court falderol. Got to do the things I liked. Paint. Run a farm. And Lilibet had me to tea when I was 82. The revolution gave me my best life.

A Tsar is Born

I even bought the souvenir book, r154. I believe I saw it at this theater...

It's 98 degrees in the shade. This dump smells like a toilet .Haven't had a fag in months. Hands shaking so hard couldn't light one anyway. The guard gave my daughter the clap. The boy moans 24/7. That bitch of a wife stopped putting out. And now my fucking hemorrhoids are burning my arse hole out. Jesus. Just shoot me!

Although a trifle plump, Maria was generally considered to be the prettiest of the Romanov sisters. Lord Mountbatten met the Romanov sisters (they were cousins) when they were children. He fell in love with Maria and said “Oh, they (the Romanov sisters) were lovely, and terribly sweet, far more beautiful than their photographs show. I was crackers about Marie, and was determined to marry her. She was absolutely lovely. I keep her photograph in my bedroom- always have.”

R153 what part of DL do you not get? other films are being mentioned in relation/comparison/contrast to N&C Why not? Stop being a control freak! Not R150

The Romanov curse...

How long will she wander...?

Lynne Frederick was also in “Voyage of the Damned” with Our Faye. She played Our Lee’s daughter.

For R149 and others, story behind that picture of Jackie Kennedy wearing Empress Alexandra's furs.

Soviet Military Revolutionary Committee basically tore though the Winter Palace in an orgy of destruction, looting, and violence.

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It’s just too bad the looters/intruders didn’t her their hands on the family themselves. Now THAT would have been a MOVIE!

GET their hands - not “her their hands”

Loving this thread!

Nicholas mistake as a ruler was to place his duty to his family before his duty to his country. Thus destroying both.

[quote] It may seem like a minor trifle today, but for pre-WWI European royal courts this was a big deal.

No, it does not

R166 PROPERTY DAMAGE!

R166 That's why we can't have nice things.

One of his guards recalls the only time he saw Nicholas angry is when he heard they had looted the wine sellers of the palace. The ex-Tsar remarked 'Why the destruction of riches?" Tells ya all ya need to know.

I don’t often say this, but the Romanovs were all a bunch of useless cunts. Rather like the BRF today, but more destructive.

Read "Former People" by Douglas Smith. Fascinating book .

I watched "Nicholas and Alexandra" again a few months ago (I personally love the film; I can and have watched it back-to-back), and I was struck by the performance of young Roderic Noble (Alexei). He was about 11 during filming, and was required to play Alexei from age 9 to 14. Even though Noble looked 11 throughout, you can sense Alexei getting more emotionally mature towards the end. A really great performance. This was Noble's only film; acting wasn't for him.

Wine cellars.

I remember we saw the film in school and for some reason started to sing Alexei's little rhyme in absurdly out of context situations, a fad which lasted a couple of months.

Alexei, Alexei,

musn't run and mustn't play,

mustn't jump and mustn't climb,

must be careful all the time.

R177

Have often recommended excellent book "Former People" in various similar threads on DL.

Yes, while the Romanovs had it bad, members of Russian nobility and elite suffered far more grim fates on average. Red Army, armed peasants, and anyone else with a grudge engaged in a mass orgy of destruction, looting, killing, rape, and other acts of violence.

Of course everything they had was taken from them, right down to wedding rings. Recall reading one painfully tragic story of a young officer in Tsar's military (which was made up of nobility) saying good-bye to his pregnant wife before being lead off to be executed.

Many who could spent considerable efforts moving about Russia attempting to avoid those trying to kill them. Some were eventually allowed to emigrate out of Russia. Others allowed to remain in their homes which were turned into everything from multi-family housing to museums. Of course as "former people" they were low on totem pole. Made to sleep on rotting hay, given worse foods or lowest amounts (if any) when things were rationed.

In these tumultuous events all sides behaved with equal savagery. But it was the victorious Bolsheviks who institutionalised terror as they tightened their grip on a devastated country. Many aristocrats were killed or driven into exile. Many who stayed behind – the "former people", as the Bolsheviks called them – perished in the purges or survived by concealing their origin. Some saw what was happening as a just retribution for their own sins of commission and omission. Prince Vladimir Golitsyn, who had been a liberal mayor of Moscow, wrote in his memoirs: "We, the people of the present century, are paying for the sins of our forefathers, and particularly for the institution of serfdom, with all its horrors and perversions… Who is to blame that the Russian people, the peasant and the proletarian, proved to be barbarians? Who, if not all of us?"

OTOH when times were good for Russian monarchy and noblity, they were fucking damn good!

Entrance Of Tsar Alexander I, from Russian film production of WAR AND PEACE (1966).

Dance is the Polonaise, Polish polonez, a dignified ceremonial dance that from the 17th to 19th century often opened court balls and other royal functions. When including or done for royalty it was way of presenting themselves at court.

[quote] Many aristocrats were killed or driven into exile.

And it was high time, at that.

Buh-bye.

Polonaise still is danced in Poland and Russia....

Polonaise for LGBT Equality!

R171

Things weren't so simple....

Nicholas II believed it was his duty as a "Son of God" to pass an intact Russian empire to his son or heir. Russia had never known any sort of democracy, only that of absolute rulers, the tsars.....

While it wouldn't have been impossible for Nicholas II to start reforms that would bring about a constitutional monarchy, by extension that would mean ceding what he believed were God given rights to "peasants". Members of Romanov family along with many members of Nicholas's own government warned he was sitting on a powder keg. But the Tsar wouldn't hear a word about anything, and it didn't help Alexandra was dead set against anything that would dilute the monarchy and of course her son's inheritance.

When Catherine the Great got word of French revolution she summoned every single French man and woman in Russia and forced them to swear allegiance to the throne, or get the fuck out of her empire.

You will find throughout history very few monarchs willingly give up their powers and or agree to share them with an elected body. Mary, Queen of Scots, Charles I of England, Louis XVI, and maybe a few others join a list that includes Nicholas II who wouldn't see sense until it was too late.

[quote]R187 When Catherine the Great got word of French revolution…

Disgraceful horse fucker..

[quote] Had three loving sons .

2

r163, I bought the OBCR of Anya in a $1 bin at a K-Mart or somewhere back in the late '60s/early '70s and have always loved it.

^ Meant to add that Rach's Symphony #2, from which the melody of "A Quiet Place" is drawn became one of my favorite pieces of music. I'm not very smart but I'm so damn sentimental.

^ "A Quiet Land" not "A Quiet Place."

So why *were* two dull unknowns cast in the leads, instead of Peter O'Toole and Vanessa Redgrave?

Because Redgrave and O'Toole wanted too much money?

It's show BUSINESS, you know.

Nicholas was a good to make preserving his powers for his son, anyone could tell that the kud would never b e able to rule, or breed. He should have put his energy into either adapting the.monarchy to a new world or beating his no-good brother into the shape required to be a tsar or a regent, not clinging to false hope.

He asked too much of fate, and ended up losing everything, even his son.

Sorry, I meant "Nick was a FOOL..."!

Damn autocorrect.

R193

Columbia studio executives were reluctant to offer a generous budget after terrible financial setbacks with The Chase and The Night of the Generals. Thus top tier talent was largely not possible for N&A such as actors Peter O’Toole, Vanessa Redgrave and Rex Harrison.

As things stood N&A was a box office disaster. It only took in about $7 million USD but cost $9 million to produce. In contrast Dr. Zhivago did box office of $111.7 million USD, but only cost $11 million USD.

Doctor Zhivago did have benefit of an all star cast of heavyweight actors...

Omar Sharif and Julie Christie as stars. Supporting cast of Geraldine Chaplin, Rod Steiger, Alec Guinness, Tom Courtenay, and Ralph Richardson.

Doctor Zhivago runs nearly three hours, but doesn't get ponderous or bogged down as N&A does at times.

R182 Eat the rich.

Find it interesting that even though the aristocracy knew that the revolution was coming for decades they still stayed in Russia. Very few were smart enough to take their fortunes and flee into voluntary exile. The Tsar's younger brother Michael had a happy life in England. His Uncle Grand Duke Paul had lived in Paris for many years. The start of WWI really sucked many of the rich ex-pats back to Russia and their ruin. Guess they were patriots after all. Nicholas withdrew all his funds from the Bank of England when the war started,. The myth of a Romanov fortune that Anna Anderson was chasing was just that a myth.

R199

IIRC Nicholas II ordered nobility and members of Romanov family to return funds/investments held in foreign countries to Russia in aid of war effort. How many did so I don't know.

While not all were wealthy, plenty of White émigrés did flee Russia. Many assumed the Bolshevik coup wouldn't last and Lenin would be deposed or otherwise checked. So those who fled largely thought they were moving only temporarily.

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From "Former People"

I never miss a Lillian Gish musical!

On the off chance that Alexei had lived to adulthood, he probably would have been infertile. The repeated episodes of bleeding and scarring had damaged his joints and left him unable to walk by 14, and apparently the same thing would have happened to his testicles.

So WTF was Nicholas thinking, trying to preserve all the powers of the Tsardom for a son who couldn't carry on the dynasty? Why the hell wasn't the man making a backup plan - did he think that God was so keen to have an all-powerful Tsar ruling Russia, that he'd cure the poor kid and make him fertile? What the hell was Nick thinking!

Spiegel was probably hoping he could use unknowns as leads like he did with Lawrence. But he should have used Lean as director. Maybe Lean felt he already did his russian film. Also he took years to make a film and Ryan's Daughter had just come out the year before. I assume Zhivago made his fortune. He never needed to work again and only made two more films. Interestingly I think the reviews were pretty bad (big budget soap opera) but word of mouth made it a huge international hit. Of course Ryan's Daughter had worse reviews but couldn't overcome them due to the changing tastes of the cinema audiences of the time. Seen today it is a wonderful film and the final storm made without cgi is astonishing.

Nicholas and Alexandra had been told a prediction that if Aleksey lived to 17 he would live a long life and reign after his father. Also, Nicholas issued a secret signed ukase changing the Pauline rule on the succession that named his daughter Olga as his heir. This document was kept in his private papers in the Alexander Palace. A ukase that had been signed by the Tsar had effect even if it had never been published. He destroyed this document after he returned to the palace after the first revolution. He had a few days before the Provisional Government sealed the palace and his files

Inspiring lot.

This was in Sergei Witte's memoirs.

If the film had starred Peter O'Toole and Vanessa Redgrave and they had gotten a better screenwriter, it would have been a classic.

O'Toole would have asked for a ton of money. It's the reason he didn't get My Fair Lady. He was second choice after Cary Grant.

Alexandra had the nickname "Sunny" as a child because of her happy disposition. Nicholas continued to call her that even though she was far from being "sunny." She was a depressive who would spend long hours hidden away in her mauve (it was famously mauve) bedroom.

It was widely remarked upon about how much of a dullard Nicholas was. His father was asked by some government official if the young Nicholas might start to do some official duties, like being in charge of a committee or something. And his father said something to the effect of "Have you ever TALKED to him? What makes you think he'd be able to be in charge of anything?" His father knew what he was talking about. Nicholas was such a dope, such a nothing, that somebody called him "a human oyster." No wonder he and his "strong willed but weak witted" wife brought down an empire.

Prince Felix Yusupov and family managed to get themselves and quite a bit of loot out of Russia after the February Revolution. Those works of art and jewels were sold off bit by bit to sustain family financially.

However like many other families much was still left behind. In case of Yusupov family tons of highly valuable artwork was hidden within walls of their palaces. Bolsheviks showed up, pointed gun at head of caretakers, and they quickly were shown where everything was hidden.

Artwork taken became part of Hermitage/Russian state collection, but IIRC bits were sold off in the orgy that became the mother of all art/jewel sales by hard up Soviet government. Not since the French Revolution had so much art, fine furniture, jewels, and other valuables were concentrated in one place and up for sale.

[quote] There are millions who are fascinated by the Romanov's family, jewellery and clothing.

R5 You are correct.

But we haven't had the Fabergé-obsessives yet.

Peter O'Toole played Henry Higgins in a 1983 TV adaptation of "Pygmalion", not "My Fair Lady".

It really is a pity that O'Toole and Redgrave didn't star, with more charismatic leads the film might have played out as a tragic love story instead of a stuffy epic. Yes, they'd have cost more than the lifeless unknowns, but if the filmmakers had cut some of the bigger and more expensive scenes the budget could have been redirected to the actors, and the film would have been less stagey and more intimate.

Now, can anyone tell me why 1960s Redgrave and O'Toole are messing around with pigeons here?

There was so much loot stolen by Bolsheviks that even late as 1930's Soviet Government under Stalin were still selling things off to raise ready money.

Marjorie Merriweather Post, a keen Russophile told of being taken to store rooms crammed with so much goodies one had to crawl over things. She like other wealthy Americans and Europeans came away with hands full.

But same thing happened after French Revolution. Today of course French government and via various philanthropic entities such as "Friends of Versailles" scour the world in aid of trying to find and buy or otherwise acquire things that were sold off.

Museums like the MET in NYC have so much antique French furniture in their storerooms they've stopped taking donations.

The story of Nicholas and Alexandra continues to fascinate because it's a slow moving car wreck. Anyone with foresight could see the danger coming, but they were committed to making the wrong decision every step of the way.

At the very least, their oldest daughters should've been married or betrothed, or all the girls smuggled out of the country.

R216 The girls never wanted to leave Russia or marry non Russians.. They tried to set up the oldest Olga with Prince Carol of Romania. A marriage that would have helped an needed alliance between the two countries. Olga would have none of it. She deliberately got sunburned and avoided Carol like the plague. As was said before this family simply did not want to perform any of the duties required of of them. But they wanted all the privileges they felt entitled to. Sort of like the Duke of Windsor and Harry.

R214 messing around with pigeons

That's an intriguing picture.

1. Vanessa and Peter may have shared the stage in the 1950s but that picture looks mid-60s.

2. There's a disembodied hand at the left clutching the pineapple.

3. There's chance that isn't Vanessa at all but an eager dolly bird.

^ Harry and Meagan please wait in the cellar.

Nicholas turned down the last effort to save the monarchy, when the monarchy has hanging by the thread and the Duma offered to make Alexei a constitutional monarch. Nicholas turned that down, for reasons that he did not make public, because it would have meant he'd have had to turn over custody of a preteen boy with a serious chronic illness over to a bunch of ruthless politicians.

But yeah, at least some of the girls should have been sent away, to "visit relatives" and "meet elegible princes", but apparently Nicholas couldn't bear to part with them and he judged his feelings to be more important than the kids' safety. And sure, King George famously refused to let the whole family flee to England, but he'd have accepted a couple of pretty young princesses, right? And BTW the girls weren't married because they'd never "come out", entered society, because a princess couldn't possibly come out without a huge series of balls and parties, and that would have been inappropriate in wartime.

Yet Peter O'Toole made that cheesy "Great Catherine" film.... Guess money does talk....

Another clip:

R220 the heir to the throne would never have been allowed to escape, but the deaths of his daughters lies at Nicky's feet. His brothers were all butchered, but his sisters lived to old age.

The daughters we deliberately cloistered by Alexandra. They might as well have been nuns. Everyone commented on how this these young ladies 21-17 yo acted and talked like children. Their mother was a hypochondriac "invalid" who spent her days locked in her boudoir. The daughters had to write her letters to communicate. They had no friends their own age. Just their aunt and each other. They only got to see the "outside world" after they became nurses during the war. Alexandra manipulated the hell out of them. The reason the took to captivity so easily is that they had been prisoners all their lives and Mama was their jailer. Sad.

R220 We don't do ball and parties.

R220

In hindsight Nicholas II made the right move abdicating for himself and son/heir. That last bit shocked royal courts all over Europe. Crowned heads could see a monarch abdicating, but to sign away his heir's birthrights was beyond the pale.

In any event that deal was with Kerensky's provisional government, which we all know didn't last, Those that start revolutions rarely are ones to finish them I suppose.

Once Lenin and his nasty Bolshevik henchmen came to power poor Alexi would have suffered like the Dauphin of France (later Louis XVII) under hands of Revolutionary government. Given the poor child's health it wouldn't have taken much to finish him off.

Key thing to keep in mind here was that everyone assumed the February Revolution was main event. No one (other than perhaps Germany who packed Lenin off to Russia in first place), foresaw or whatever things would change, and quite quickly.

R224 No wonder I got tingles when Ivan let me touch his thingski.

It's the direction that sinks N & A. There are many first-rate scenes: the hemophilia attacks, the murder of Rasputin, the final assassination.... But a lot of it lumbers on and on. Michael Jayston, an estimable actor (his turn in the Scottish play is notable), is made to look ridiculous through no fault of his own when he falters in the second half of the film, all thanks to poor editing and direction.

[quote] The Great Catherine 1968

Only two of Shaw's plays have succeeded on screen.

And Peter O'Toole needs a string director to keep his bad behaviour in control.

In hindsight the right move would be for Nicholas to abdicate after the 1905 revolution but under his wife's baneful influence he just doubled down on the 'God appointed me to rule" rubbish. I'm sure had it not been for Alexandra Nicholas would have been happy to walk away in 1905. Instead he delayed 12 long years until Russia was crumbling in the middle of a catastrophic world war to toss in the towel. He was a spineless selfish twit.

An older but still hammy Peter O'Toole also did "High Spirits" (1988).

Only reason one bothered to watch was to gaze at Steve Guttenberg.

And scenes like this were why....

R226 When Nicholas destroyed the army in his futile offensives of 1916 there was no muscle left to hold up the aristocracy. The small middle class and intelligentsia were deluding themselves to think their bourgeoise Provisional Government would last. In their hearts they knew 300 years of class hatred and oppressions would rip their throats out and it did.

"Suzman was in that dreary film called 'Joe Egg' with Alan Bates which I've even studiously avoiding for 30 years."

How unfortunate for you (not to mention ignorant and ungrammatical). Suzman's monologue is one of the high points of that movie, a very respectable adaptation of the difficult Nichols play. I can also recommend her exemplary turn as Cleopatra in the Shakespeare play directed by husband Trevor Nunn...but I'm sure it's beneath you.

More about the Yusupov family jewels.

Again while they did manage to get much out of Russia, there was still plenty left to be nabbed by Soviets.

"There, he and his family waited anxiously for events to settle down. They hoped the Bolshevik revolution was just a blip and the Romanovs would soon be restored to the throne. They weren’t, the Bolsheviks closed in on them, and they had to bail with Irina’s grandma, Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna, on a British dreadnought on April 11, 1919. They would never return or see any of their 47,000 hidden paintings, jewels, treasures, and trinkets again "

R230, that’s what makes it such a potentially fascinating story (apart from the jewelry): they loved each other, yet they somehow brought out the worst in each other.

Those are *doves*, r214, you nincompoop.

[r215] There was so much loot stolen by Bolsheviks that even late as 1930's Soviet Government under Stalin were still selling things off to raise ready money.

“Stolen,” or liberated?

Why shouldn’t a government make money off riches hoarded by an ousted ruler?

Peter O'Toole received the 1965 French “Academie du Cinema Crystal Star Dove" award in Paris; the photo is from the ceremony, where doves (or pigeons posing as doves?) were released. Here's another photo, from the same event, of O'Toole kissing Salvador Dali.

The woman in the previous photo is definitely Redgrave, who may have been in France because her husband Tony Richardson was filming "Mademoiselle" there (and carrying on an affair with its star, Jeanne Moreau).

Thinking about how to do this better. It would actually make sense to do this through the eyes of Stolypin. Highly intelligent prime minister trying to drag Russia into the next century and having to deal with a couple of morons who could only see Autocracy. Orthodoxy. Nationalism. Frustrating and difficult, and of course he got himself assassinate, cause Russia was a complete fucking asshole in the 19th century (and the 20th and the 21st of course ...)

Another great line from the film. Alexis says to Nicholas "Look where you've put us!" Nicholas responds pathetically "I love you." Alexis bitter comeback 'I know father but does it matter.?"

Spiegel wanted O'Toole for Rasputin and offered Richard Burton the role of Nicholas II, but both turned him down.

R240 And it was not the left but the right that assassinated Stolypin.

R242 Burton's style of hammy scenery chewing would have been better suited to Rasputin.

And O'Toole's wouldn't?

Burton was WAY too short for Rasputin. He's have needed stilts.

I think you are right r243. And on top of that the secret intelligence services were all tangled up tripping over their own giant dick and had to let certain plots go forward to not let people know they were on to other plots. What a goddamn mess that country was. And of course it hasn't changed. So the only guy that actually was trying to help that stupid fucking country had to die.

Look at Yusupov jewels including the Soviet haul....

I did not enjoy the end. Was too abrupt... and final. It was a hopeless film and although we all knew the end, there needed to be some type of positivity. I don't know, show some of the Romanovs escaping...

Welcome to reality, r249!

That's what Anastasia was for r249

R236 indeed. They were the love of each other's lives, and she was the worst possible choice as a consort.

Agree, r252. Old Victoria was right. Don't do this, girl. You may luuuurrrrvvveee him, but it's just all wrong. You will suck as Tsarina. Don't do this shit.

Keep in mind just because Romanovs and Russian nobility managed to get themselves and some loot out of Russia, countries they fled to (France, GB, USA, etc...) all had duties valuables such as art and jewelry by those seeking to emigrate.

The Yusupov family ran into this issue when wanting to come to USA. They couldn't afford to pay duties on jewels and art they were seeing to bring with them.

On another note one reason BRF ended up with so much of Romanov jewels was that George V decided too much Russian jewels from various sources was flooding the market and driving down prices. So HM generously *cough, cough* offered to purchase good share of late Dowager Empress Marie's jewels giving what he thought was a good price.

She's a fascinating compare and contrast with Marie Antoinette. On the one hand, kind of dumb, from a country that was hated (or became hated) by the people of her new country, in a bubble. All that like Marie. But then the opposite: Alexandra was a hopelessly shy, stiff puritan prude who just wanted to be a happy frau with her husband and kids, and that at the time turned out to be equally disastrous. It's like Royal Women just can't win sometimes.

Somebody needs to do this right. It is not impossible. I'm still in the camp that says pick a different Romanov. But if you MUST pick these Romanovs, and Hollywood you are so incredibly stupid and ridiculous that you probably do need to do that, at least do it right next time.

R256

Again a film likely isn't way to go; but a mini series something along lines of 'The Tudors" would be a better choice.

That being said there are some Russian films and other programs about the Romanovs which aren't so politically bias. More so those that came after break up of Soviet Union and glasnost became policy. That event opened up archives long since buried or otherwise secreted away to researcher and others.

Problem with "the last Tsar" if you will is the story has so many angles to explore. Nicholas and Alexandra, the extended Romanov family, Imperial Russia...

Dr. Zhivago looked at Russian Revolution through perspective of Yuri and Lara, there things could be more tightly focused.

I agree, r257, but honestly I think they do do that "Romanovs" thing in a series sometimes, and it is always the same few Romanovs. Actually do the Romanovs that you don't always see, in a series. That would be good.

@ R234

[quote] the difficult Nichols play.

So difficult that audiences have been studiously avoiding it for 40 years.

Russia actually had a huge effect on the last couple of centuries, but we are weirdly determined to never, ever focus on the Russians who made that happen. That is truly bizarre.

[quote] Don't do this shit.

Queen Victoria did not speak Ebonics, R253.

But she was thinking it r261

The two older girls were dressed alike, as if they were twins (they weren't). Then the two younger girls were also dressed as twins, though they weren't. This can be seen in the movie.

R231

[quote] An older but still hammy Peter O'Toole.

O'Toole was the most hammy man on screen.

He was only bearable with a STRONG man like David Lean keeping him on a leash.

He was bad in his stage performances ('Hamlet' lost a million) and he was bad in real life (drunkard, wife beater).

He worshipped Donald Wolfit who was renowned as the hammiest ham on the British stage.

I will say, Lawrence of Arabia was perfect in every way.

[quote] The woman in the previous photo is definitely Redgrave, who may have been in France because her husband Tony Richardson was filming "Mademoiselle" there (and carrying on an affair with its star, Jeanne Moreau).

Those were crazy times. Tony Richardson won Oscars in 1963, he then abandoned wife Vanessa and fornicated with Frenchmen but, unfortunately, all his films from that period are unwatchable.

Well, r234, little Miss Kim Cattrall takes tips from her on playing Cleopatra.

*

"Cattrall has played Cleopatra twice. Now she explores the real character of the great Queen of Egypt, and travels to Rome, ironically Marc Antony's city, in her quest to find out more about the historical Cleopatra. She also meets with her director, Dame Janet Suzman, who herself made an iconic Cleopatra at the Royal Shakespeare Company in 1973. Together they begin to uncover the truth behind this astonishing middle-aged love story. Antony and Cleopatra are no lovesick juveniles; they are mature, heroic–real–political figures. As such they were quite dangerous roles to write, let alone to play."

There is a theory that if Nicholas had not also abdicated for his son that would have given the Romanov Dynasty a chance at surviving as Alexis was the indisputable heir to the throne. When Nicholas threw it to his brother Michael that's and he dropped it like a hot potato. Not a great theory because when the Duma representatives shouted 'Long Live the Tsar Michael!" they were almost lynched.

I think they told Nicholas he would have to leave the country and leave the kid with them. He just couldn't do that, and I kind of get that, cause he knew what they didn't know. That kid could not survive without his family.

Grand Duke Michael declined to be tsar after being informed (rather correctly) Provisional government couldn't guarantee his safety. As it turns out that was correct, Prince Michael was taken away by for Soviet "policemen" and never seen alive again. For that matter his remains were never found either....

They still have not found Michael's body. He was taken out and shot the day before his bro Nicholas. Every summer a group of amateur sleuths goes searching for his bones. They been at it for 20 years. No Luck. I think the bears got him.

R267 That doco could be interesting, what with Shakespeare and Vanessa and Harriet Walter.

We don't get to hear much about Harriet Walter and people still misspell her surname.

She's an intelligent performer but we will soon hear more from her because (I regret to say) Vanessa, Judi and Maggie will be passing on and Harriet will get all their roles.

Nicholas and Alexandra knew their son would not survive past 17 . That would have been grounds for Nicholas abdicating or at least designated another male successor. Yet for 12 years they keep up the deluded fantasy that their fatally ill son would become the great Tsar Alexis II. That was hardly putting Russia first.

When the Mensheviks murder the family, I like to think it's ANTIFA murdering the Trump family. After all they've done to fuck us!

[quote] The two older girls were dressed alike, as if they were twins (they weren't). Then the two younger girls were also dressed as twins, though they weren't. This can be seen in the movie.

Alexandra dressed ALL her girls in frilly white dresses and hats. She wanted to keep them chaste and pure and dressed them to that end. It was bizarre. I guess being "morbidly religious" she wanted them to look as virginal as possible, at least until they got married. It's doubtful that the poor girls even kissed a member of the opposite sex, with the possible exception of Maria, who was caught in some kind of "compromising position" with a soldier after the family was imprisoned, which greatly angered her mother and her prissy sister Tatiana. But my guess is that that all the Romanov girls died with their virginity intact.

Just a quick note to say that the subsequent "peoples" soviet under Lenin and Stalin murdered about 3 million civilian woman, children and especially gay men. Be careful to whose wagon you hook up to.

Big John and Little John annoyed the shit out of me only because they mentioned each other's names every 15 seconds. Who the fuck does that???

Not listening to rasputin is where it all went wrong

My God R271 ! Micheal was beautiful . Nicky was hot too,but damn .

R278 Rasputin's 14 inch cock

"So difficult that audiences have been studiously avoiding it for 40 years."

A revival in the West End opened in October 2001 at the New Ambassadors Theatre, starring Clive Owen and Victoria Hamilton and was directed by Laurence Boswell. This production transferred to the Comedy Theatre in December 2001, with Eddie Izzard replacing Owen. The same production opened on Broadway, produced by Roundabout Theatre, in March 2003 at the American Airlines Theatre and played for 69 performances. Directed by Lawrence Boswell, the play starred Eddie Izzard and Victoria Hamilton.

In October 2011 the Citizens Theatre again staged the play that premiered there in 1967, with a cast that included Miles Jupp, Sarah Tansey, and Miriam Margolyes.

In May 2013 it received an off-off-Broadway production from Retro Productions in New York City.

In September 2019, the play had a West End revival at Trafalgar Studios, starring Claire Skinner and Toby Stephens, directed by Simon Evans.

[quote] "So difficult that audiences have been studiously avoiding it for 40 years."

Audiences have also been avoiding Peter Nichols' plays and Edward Bond's plays and John Arden's too.

I have really enjoyed this thread. I dont have anything to add other than this story has fascinated me since I was a kid and it never gets old; it is truly Shakespearian. Who could make up someone like Rasputin?

@R277

[quote] Big John and Little John annoyed the shit out of me…

Who are you talking about?

R284 wrong thread

R281 Toby would make great Nicholas and Daniel Day-Lewis would be my choice to play Rasputin.

Film trivia

Adam Driver has my vote as Raspy.

Is that your cute-sy poo name for Rasputin like "Spidey" for Spider Man?

I suppose calling him 'Putin would be confusing, r289.

"Big John and Little John annoyed the shit out of me…"

I love the part where they battle each other with samovars as they cross the Volga...

Thinking back I wonder if George RR Martin drew inspiration from the Romanovs in creating the Targaryans

I enjoyed the Barrymore hamfest Rasputin and the Empress. Diana Wynyard is wonderful as always.

"Oh happy horse to bear the weight of Antony!"

CUNTY cutsey-poo name for R289

Since the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of the archives, we've gained greater insight into the lives of the last tsar and his family.

Alexis' overcompensated for his illness and overindulged him. By all accounts, he was a spoiled brat and would lash out at playmates.

In the weeks before their murder, one of the daughters -- Marie? -- may have had a romance/infatuation with one of their guards. It caused an estrangement/spat of sorts with her mother and sisters.

The children led very sheltered lives, which resulted in a lack of maturity in them all.

I have wondered about that BonniePrince. Would Alexis have actually been a nightmare if he'd ever gotten to that throne?

A bloody nightmare, r297.

Would more people have died under Alexis than did under Stalin?

Olga had a nervous breakdown while she was a nurse during the war. She was out in the real world with nurses, doctors, orderlies and patients - hundreds of people. She knew how much her parents were hated and it depressed her. In the last couple of years Olga and Tatiana had matured they had more contact with the outside world. Tatiana ran a motorized ambulance corps that was funded by Americans. She was really involved in it. I was very lucky to have worked in the archives when they open in the 90's. I have seen everything, diaries, letters, the Tsar's abdication ukase, Alexandra's last diary, held them in my hands. The whole family teased Maria about her infatuation.

Yeah, that does make sense r298. Pain in monarchs is sometimes discounted. But a monarch with a disease like hemophelia I'm sure was going to lash out at lots of people. Supposedly a fall off his horse, and constant pain in his leg ever afterward, turned Henry VIII into a monster. It's not like he was ever going to be not selfish or demanding or grasping. But constant pain made him much more dangerous, at least by that theory.

R300 WOW! What an experience!

That is one of those great frustrations r300. Get those damn girls out of the country while you have the chance, you morons! Marry them off, to somebody, pretty much anybody. But of course, you don't really know what is coming until it comes.

and yeah, second r302. That is very cool.

R300 One of the ladies in waiting said that by the time Olga had reached the Ipatiev house. 'This 21 year old girl looked like a worn out middle aged woman." One theory holds that Olga may have been sexually abused by the guards on the boat transfer to Ekaterinburg. Or perhaps she was just the smartest of the daughters and realized they were heading to their execution and there was no hope.

^ Bitch had her chance.

But wasn't Carol pretty much an asshole? I recently watched a (mediocre) movie about Queen Marie on Amazon Prime and Carol comes off as a major dick.

Nicholas and Alexandra were very close to George and Mary. They encouraged a possible marriage with their children. Had the war not occurred the girls would made made trips to Great Britain. Nicholas established bank accounts for them there. There was constant contact between Alexandra's sister, Victoria and her family. At the outbreak of WWI Victoria and her daughter Alice were staying in the Alexander Palace. Victoria and Alice left their jewels behind in the palace.

It won a Harvard Lampoon Award:

The Victor Mature Memorial Award (to the most embarrassing line of dialogue since Richard Burton was asked at the foot of the cross in The Robe, "Is this your first crucifixion?): Nicholas and Alexandra, for a young Trotsky's angry reproach to the father of Modern Communism, "Lenin, you've been avoiding me!"

I don't know whether it's true but there is a frequently repeated story saying the Empress and her daughters had so many jewels sewn into the linings of their coats that many of the bullets ricocheted off of them and the assassins had to rush them and use bayonets to make sure they were dead.

Another thing was some of the guards who executed them pointed their guns away from the girls and Aleksey. This made things even more horrible for them. Nicholas and Alexandra were killed instantly

R310 it's been confirmed.

I'd love to go to Russia, visit the palaces and everything, except for Putin's whole "let's lock up gays" thing

I think both Suzman and Jayston give great performances as Nicholas and Alexandra. However, they were overshadowed.

Tom Baker stole the movie as Rasputin.

The supporting cast of advisors, who they mainly acted off of, were the crème de la crème: Laurence Oliver, Michael Redgrave, Eric Porter, Harry Andrews, John Wood, Irene Worth, and Jack Hawkins.

Jayston and Suzman were thrown into the lions den.

Love Tom Baker! He has the intrinsic charisma, gravitas, and weirdness needed for the role, which later served him as Doctor Who. And he had the experience as a monk, he'd been a monk for a couple of years when he was younger.

Nicholas should have sent some of the girls to visit their cousins as things started to go downhill, as they'd been doing for their entire lives. Maybe not all of them, maybe not Olga who was secretly but officially the "spare", but at least two of the girls if not all. They didn't have to marry anyone if they didn't want to, their parents loved each other and couldn't have wanted their girls to marry someone they didn't love, but they did need to be out of the country even if they had to take a ship from Archangel.

King George wouldn't have had any trouble supporting a couple of great-niece princesses, whether or not their parent contributed to their upkeep. Give them a suite in a spare palace, buy them a few gowns, loan them a few jewels, assign them a lady's maid, let them use the carriage. Shuffle them off to Kensington Palace in their old age, to join the "Aunt Heap".

R297, as to that "What if..." I doubt if Alexis would ever have ascended the throne. In all likelihood, he would not have reached adulthood. World War one accelerated the inevitable. If you look at Russian history from the time of the Emancipation of the Serfs in 1861 until 1917, there were structural problems with the system, and Nicholas was a simple-minded fool at the top of a tottering regime.

The tragedy of this family is immensely interesting, but their story and Rasputin did not cause the Revolution. They were symptomatic of larger problems.

I believe Nicholas intended to send Olga and Tatiana to America after the great American WWI loan to Russia had been approved by the US Congress. It had been held up because of Russia's anti-Jewish laws. In 1917 Nicholas sent a new law to the Duma granting full-civil rights to the Jews and an end to the Pale. The United State required this as a condition for the loan which Russia was desperate for. Had Russia received the loan and American arms in vast quantities the war could be won. As I wrote earlier Tatiana had close friendships with Americans. One of Nicholas's oldest and closest friends since he was teenager was the American author and Russian scholar Isabel Hapgood, who was Orthodox and spoke fluent Russian. She also spoke the church dialect that Rasputin and village priestly families spoke. After the revolution Isabel and friends of hers went to Siberia and tried to rescue the family.

The Romanov family was very anti-semitic and were violently opposed to Nicholas granting the Jews full civil rights. They overthrew Nicholas to stop it.

King George's betrayal of his beloved cousin Nicholas to whom he swore undying fraternal love throughout their lives was one of the great betrayals in history.

^ I can think of bigger, R318.

It was hardly a flop. It got six Oscar noms, including Best Picture and Best Actress, and won two (costume design and art direction/set design).

It was a big money loser. It wasn't remotely a success. It ended a whole genre.

R318

You cannot really say that, but people do because we all are commoners. George V was the son of a king and one himself. His first duty was to preserve and protect the monarchy.

This love fest around the Romanovs in particular Nicholas II, his wife and children all largely began *after* they were all dead. Prior to this "Bloody Nicholas II" was seen as a (now fallen) tyrant, and huge anti-Semite. Alexandra was seen as a hysteric prude who dominated her husband and was allowed to meddle in affairs that did not concern her at all.

One by one when approached all of Russia's allies in WWI and or those nations at least not hostile directly to Russia refused asylum requests sent out by Provisional Government. Great Britain was joined by France and the United States in saying "no". No one wanted the presence of a fallen tyrant and his hysterical wife in their country.

As for George V there was a strong and growing republican feeling sweeping across Great Britain. The same forces that eventually toppled the Hapsburgs in Austria-Hungry, Romanovs in Russia, and so forth. HM couldn't have known what the outcome of having Nicholas II and his family arrive, but he wasn't keen to find out either.

Besides no one thought at that time Nicholas II and his family were in any mortal danger. Everyone assumed Nicholas II would be put on some sort of show trial, then when things had cooled allowed to emigrate or something. What no one also counted upon was Kerensky's Provisional government falling and Lenin and his nasty band of Soviets taking over. That is when things went from bad to worse for the Romanovs and many others.

Of course by that time it was too late for getting Nicholas II and his family out of Russia.

When news that the last Tsar and his family had been murdered it shocked and saddened not just royal houses of Europe and rest of world, but even in USA. POTUS was having a dinner party when news arrived, it was broken up and mood in WH became rather somber.

George V and Queen Mary were devastated upon hearing the news. If any good came out of it HM finally acted and sent British warships to evacuate "Aunt Minnie" (the Dowager Empress Marie), and remaining Romanovs from Crimea before the Bolsheviks got to them and finished off what remained of Romanov family in Russia.

Keep in mind also it was like the Bourbons (Louis XVI and his family) all over again.

Alexandra had been told, begged, pressured to leave St. Petersburg when WWI began and certainly when it started going badly for Russia. When riots began those same voices were raised again, but the Empress would hear none of it. She wouldn't leave without Nicholas II, nor the children without one or both of their parents. Worse al the children came down with measles and then Alexandra refused to have them moved for health reasons.

Meanwhile the Dowager Empress, other Romanovs, nobility and anyone else who could see writing on wall was legging it out of St. Petersburg and the other areas where things were going badly to (relative) safety of Crimea or other areas, if not out of Russia all together.

After Nicholas II abdicated it took about a week for him to return by train to St. Petersburg, by that time any window for the last Tsar and his family leaving of their own accord was largely gone. Upon arrival Nicholas joined his family under house arrest, and that was end of that.

His Majesty Alfonso XIII, King of Spain was one of the few (if not sole) monarch in Europe that offered the Romanovs including Tsar Nicholas II and his family asylum.

Up until the very end HM worked tirelessly with Russia, England and anyone else who he thought could help to get the Romanovs out of Russia.

[quote] Or perhaps she was just the smartest of the daughters and realized they were heading to their execution and there was no hope.

That assessment is probably the accurate one. Olga was always the most intelligent, sensitive, introspective one. She realized her family was in grave danger and seemed to be resigned to the fact that no was was coming to rescue them and that they would in all likelihood come to a horrible fate. From the way her behavior was described it's apparent she was quite depressed.

Here's more interesting Romanov trivia. Alexandra had jewels sewn into the clothes of herself and her daughters. I guess she thought they could sell them later on in order to support themselves or perhaps to use them as barter for their freedom. Or maybe she just wanted to hang onto those jewels. Anyway, when they were herded into the cellar to be shot, their killers were amazed. The bullets seemed to be bounding off the girls! Alexandra was dispatched quickly'; I think she was shot in the head. But the bullets hitting the young Grand Duchesses seemed to be having little effect. Turns out the diamonds and jewels they had sewn into their bodices were acting like a bullet proof vest. This caused the Bolsheviks to attempt to kill them by bludgeoning them and stabbing them. It took some time, but finally everyone in the cellar was killed. The Bolsheviks made sure of that. There were no survivors.

I can certainly see why no country would accept Nicholas and Alexandra. They were in fact tyrants, deeply unpopular with their own people and in every civilized country, and any head of state who accepted them would have been accused of condoning tyranny. Worse, once there, they'd have been trouble magnets as well as a huge expense, as every counter-revolutionary flocked to their cause and became a nuisance to the ruling class by demanding money, and every communist, anarchist, and nutjob decided it'd be a great idea to kill the ex-Tsar and put an end to his attempts to restore tyranny.

That said, no head of state could have refused to let a darling young princess enter their country to stay with friends or relatives, and the Romanovs should have asked and shoved the girls out the door when they didn't want to go.

[quote] Nicholas should have sent some of the girls to visit their cousins as things started to go downhill,

He had no idea things had gone downhill. He hadn’t been in St Petersburg in ages and thought reports of unrest weren’t any different from unrest that had been going on for years. After all, his grandfather had been assassinated yet that didn’t bring down the Romanov family, did it. In fact, Nicholas believed his grandfather was too lenient on revolutionary types.

He was told to go back to St Petersburg by Russians & by allies and refused. He would not capitulate to some unruly students & terrorists by leaving his imperial train in Mogilev, from which he disastrously led Russian troops. He believed he was needed at the front. He received daily letters from Alexandra and believed everything she said. She repeatedly had Nicholas fire officials who advised the Romanovs to meet with representatives and cede more power to the Duma. And to fire anyone who didn’t like Rasputin. Pretty soon, all the Tsar’s men in St Petersburg were inept social climbers and backwards-facing monarchists. They wrote Nicholas that they had things. under control.

By the time Nicholas left for St Petersburg it was too late.

Even long after Nicholas II and his family had been brutally murdered Spain still was working to save them. Of course they didn't know Bolsheviks had already taken care of the last Tsar and his family.

Lenin and his nasty henchmen had no intention from the start of allowing the last Tsar, his heir, wife and children to leave Russia. They played a good game of course, dangling prospect of at least "the German women" (Empress Alexandra and her daughters) to leave Russia. But that was all just part of their game plan.

Supposedly secret letters reached the Romanovs in captivity from "friends" seeking to help them escape. The family communicated back and this went on for some time. It emerged later that source of those letters were none other than the Bolsheviks who were messing around with Nicholas and his family.

So those jewels that were meant to save them when they escaped Russia caused the girls/young women to have a much more agonizing bloody death than could have been imagined.

Evacuation of Empress Marie and last of Romanovs from Yalta did not go smoothly.

First and foremost Marie simply refused to leave Russian soil. Then came fact she wouldn't even consider leaving until everyone present in Yalta who wanted to leave boarded the ships first.

These were military ships, not ocean liners so spare space was tight. More so because many of the Romanovs insisted on bringing as much of their possessions as possible (trunks and trunks of china, silver, clothing, etc...

Things started to get nasty as the Bolsheviks were bearing down on Yalta and would soon reach port. As things stood CO had to give orders for ships to load and aim their guns at the place and fired salvos to scare off approaching Soviet army.

Finally CO raised himself up to his full height and spoke to Empress Marie very severely. He told her "they are going to kill you...!" With that Empress Marie however reluctantly finally boarded and ships could begin sailing out of harbor.

As ships pulled away from Russia one of the Romanov princesses gazed back at shore though a pair of binoculars. She saw things glittering in the sunlight and asked what they could possibly be. Her servants explained it was her china service. They had left it behind so there would be more room on board for people wishing to be evacuated.

I've always read that it was the government who ordered George to rescind his offer of asylum to his Romanov cousins. It was a matter of state and George had to comply.

R325, see R310.

When they were young didn't George who loved him so much say to Nicholas something along the lines of no matter what happens I will always be there for you?

Yeah, well, being a monarch means putting the needs of the nation ahead of your personal feelings, something Nicholas never learned to do. Or wanted to learn to do.

There was plenty of blame to go around, and certianly Lord Stamfordham deserves his fair share. But ultimately decision rested with George V.

HM in turn pointed fingers at his other cousin, Kaiser Wilhelm II among others for failing to help Nicholas and his family.

Again all this largely came about after Nicholas II and his family were dead.

The Express said.....

In a newly uncovered letter, it has been revealed that King George instructed Lord Stamfordham to write to the then Foreign Secretary, Arthur Balfour, outlining his growing concerns surrounding the potential arrival of the Russian Tsar in Britain.

The letter, sent from Lord Stamfordham to Arthur Balfour on April 6 1917, said: “Every day the King is becoming more concerned about the question of the Emperor and Empress of Russia coming to this country.

“His Majesty receives letters from people in all classes of life, known or unknown to him, saying how much the matter is being discussed.”

/quote

So who was the best actor/character in the movie?

When it involves the last tsar of Russia isn't it always Rasputin? If it isn't the actor isn't doing his job.

"HM in turn pointed fingers at his other cousin, Kaiser Wilhelm II among others for failing to help Nicholas and his family."

Uh, weren't Nicholas and Wilhelm at war with each other???

In film Dr. Zhivago Alexander Maximovich Gromeko reading a newspaper exclaims in disgust "they've gone and killed the tsar!". His daughter asks why Soviets would do such a thing, and her father replies "to show there is no going back"... Truer words were never spoken.

Things were still touch and go even after Russia reached a treaty with Germany to end hostilities. Lenin and Soviets were not sure of their success in holding onto Russia, and indeed the White Army did have some significant gains.

If things went the other way and monarchy was restored things would end very badly for Lenin and everyone else. On another front Russia would return to a system of government Lenin was morally opposed.

So as with the Bourbons and few other royals, you simply cut things off at the head so to speak. Eliminate a monarch, his heir and anyone else you can lay hands upon that has slightest claim to throne.

This is exactly what Lenin and his nasty band of Soviets did; almost without exception they butchered and murdered any Romanov in Russia they could lay hands upon. This included the women like Alexandra, her daughters, etc... Women had ruled Russia at least once before, so Lenin wasn't taking any chances....

R338

Yes, but Alexandra was German, and after the Treaty of Brest Litovsk Russia and Germany were no longer at war with each other.

IIRC Grand Duke Michael's widow (who was German IIRC) was allowed to leave Russia via Germany.

[quote]r328 Secret letters reached the Romanovs in captivity from "friends" seeking to help them escape. The family communicated back and this went on for some time. It emerged later that source of those letters were none other than the Bolsheviks who were messing around with Nicholas and his family.

That is hilarious [bold]: )

Nicholas was still aloof and clueless after his abdication. He naively thought he'd be allowed to be a farmer... He thought that he and his family would be retired on a small farm somewhere and expressed no type of urgency in at least getting his children out during that period of the provisional government being in power.

The family was under arrest by the provisional government

R318 There is no honor among thieves or kings.

Despite the condemnation of "dear Georgie" for letting "dear Nicky" go down the drain. In all fairness he did send a battleship to rescue the remaining Romanovs including Nicholas mother and sister. Luckily they were near a port in the Crimea and could easily be saved. The window to save Nicholas and his family was almost non existent. Even if George had sent a battleship to to rescue them in the first weeks of the revolution. There was no way that the government could get them out alive from St Petersburg. The railways were controlled by the Soviets. They were waiting for Kerensky to get them out. The minute they left the safety of the palace they would have been seized by revolutionaries.

Edward Duke of Windsor writes in his memories that he was present at breakfast when an equerry brought his father King George a telegram from the Russian government asking he grant asylum to his cousin Nicholas and his family in England. Edward describes how his father read the note and passed over to his wife Queen Mary who glanced at it and said 'NO".

Exactly!

It was all new government could do to get Nicholas II back to St. Petersburg in one piece. He had been warned that they "couldn't guarantee" his safety.

You cannot under estimate how demoralized Russia's imperial army was by that point. Who do you think made up large numbers of rioters and others causing mischief? Mutineers Russian military, that's who...

One of the worst decisions Nicholas II made (and that's saying something) was to take direct control of Russia's military during WWI. Even Germany by that time had sidelined the Kaiser because despite all his warmongering and so forth, the man was an idiot when it came to running a war. Nicholas II was several levels below...

Thus when things began to go from bad to much worse for Russia in WWI, boots on ground knew exactly who to hold responsible. It was the last straw, the Tsar had to go...

R346 "Dear May" had a eye for bling. She later picked up many jewels from the exiled Romanov's at rock bottom prices. Her granddaughter Queen Elizabeth still wears many them.

^ Bitch

One thing you have to give us We are survivors.

R330 Leaving behind the china. Yegads! Reminds me of another great scene from the film. The Romanovs are sitting on their trunks waiting to leave the palace when Alexandra (Suzman) comes out yelling. " I must have my things! My photos!" Kerensky looks her up and down and delivers this zinger:

'Frau Romanov you have your head. You should be grateful."

King George and Queen Mary disliked Alexandra. They had been told she was pro German ( untrue). The reputation of the Romanovs was at rock bottom in the UK. The papers had reported the Rasputin scandal and no one in England wanted anything to do with the Romanovs. Neither did the French. It was in the middle of a World War were millions of people had lost their loved ones. They certainly did not 'foreigners" living there and being supported by British taxpayers .The anti- Nicholas mood was much like when Jimmy Carter offered asylum to the Shah.

Lenin and Soviets generally feared White Army would be assisted by Germany, France, Great Britain and anyone else invading Russia to put down revolution, and restore monarchy. Germany and Great Britain at least had monarchs who were related to the Romanovs on both sides.

United States did have a military presence in Russia from 1918 to 1920.

If at first you don't succeed, flop, flop again...

BBC production "The Lost Prince" about Prince John took many liberties with historical truths. But scenes depicting 1908 visit of Romanovs to England did capture the sentiment.

Empress Alexandra as a princess of Hesse-Darmstadt and grand-daughter of Queen Victoria visited England and Sandringham House often enough in her youth. Thus she wouldn't have acted if that 1908 visit was first time she clapped eyes on the place.

Look Queen Mary (played by wonderful Miranda Richardson) gives when Alix says "there must be some *other* shoes is priceless. More to point it sums up pretty much what the Queen of England thought about the Empress of All the Russias.

Other royals found Alexandra tiresome and tedious. But since she was an imperial empress attention had to be paid.

Happily (or unhappily) as case may have been, Alexandra, Nicholas II and or their children left Russia comparatively little for visits with "Royal Mob". Preferring to remain within their own empire in a tight knit family circle. Cutting themselves off that away from rest of Europe's royal families was another nail in coffin when revolution came to Russia.

From same television production, how George V is informed that Nicholas II and his family have been murdered.

The King, The Kaiser and The Tsar was a television series (and good book) that explored relationship between George V, Wilhelm II and Nicholas II .

Part II

George V could have gotten Nicholas II and his family out of Russia (or cooperated in aid of that effort), then packed them off to some far part of his realm or Commonwealth. That or move them on to Germany, Denmark, etc.. where many Romanovs who survived ended up anyway.

Of course we all know now what no one did then, at end of WWI as part of any peace treaties USA insisted upon the war making monarchs (read Germany) be kicked off their thrones.

We also know that the Great War was not end of things, but another more horrible than first was coming in about twenty years. Germany again began something it couldn't finish, and can you imagine what would happen to any Romanov Stalin's armies came across?

Other revolting details about the Romanovs:

Alexandra and her daughters called Alexei "Baby." He was 13 when he died but still called "Baby." I guess if he'd lived to be 20 he'd still have been called "Baby." Yech.

Alexandra's letters to Nicholas were nauseatingly soppy and sappy and clueless. She had pet names for him like "darling boysy." Here's an example of her writing to Nicholas:

"Now goodnight lovey, go straight to bed without tea with the rest & their long faces. You have Gregory’s St Nicolas to guard & guide you… I clasp you tenderly to my heart, kiss and caress you without end — want to show you all the intense love I have for you, warm, cheer, console, strengthen you, & make you sure of yourself. Sleep well my Sunshine, Russia’s Saviour. Remember last night, how tenderly we clung together? I shall yearn for your caresses, I never can have enough of them. I kiss you without end & bless you. Holy Angels guard your slumber — I am near & with you forever & ever & none shall separate us.”

"Russia's Savior?" Oh my Lord. What la-la land was SHE living in?

Ironical that Queen Mary was beloved by her people and Alexandra was despised yet both were German princesses.

The real irony is even though Alexandra was born in Germany. She was raised by her grandmother Queen Victoria to be a proper English Lady. People who knew her said she was "English to the teeth". She always wrote and spoke english to Nicholas and her family. She had British manners and attitudes about child rearing. Her Russian was awful and she never spoke German. She loathed the Kaiser even before the war. Sadly perception is everything and even the French ambassador said '"the Empress is a Bosch by birth and sentiment,"

Whoa there partner...

There had been a strong anti-German feeling in England ever since first Hanoverians arrived to replace the Stuarts. Feelings ran up and down but many at various times in British history since that event would have preferred the Stuarts over Germans.

Quoting Francis Urquhart:

"Not at all, Sir. Don't you understand what I'm telling you? I have no wish to. It is *you* I want to destroy. Not the monarchy. My family came south with James I. We were defenders of the English throne before your family was ever heard of. It is to preserve the ideal of a constitutional monarchy that I now demand your abdication."

Prince Albert of Saxe Coburg-Gotha was treated very badly by Parliament and good part of British people upon his arrival in GB to marry Queen Victoria. Victoria was told by her government there was a strong feeling against yet another penniless minor German royal marrying into BRF and thus would be sucking from the public teat. It didn't matter by that point that Prince Albert was a princes, not a princess, people were fed up with "Germans" who ruled over England.

Edward VII and certainly George V did much to tone down their German ancestry and connections where possible. George V and Queen Mary worked very hard at being, well seen as English bourgeoisie or middle class values.

During WWI George V and Queen Mary did much as they could to show they were going to suffer along with their subjects. HM had heating turned down in his palaces, and made other economies during WWI. HM and Queen Mary openly criticized the rich and powerful of GB that went about their business best they could during the Great War as if nothing was going on.

George V and Queen Mary both jointly and separately visited military hospitals/wounded troops.

As Maria-Antonia (later Queen Marie Antoinette of France and Navarre) Alexandra of Hesse-Darmstadt suffered largely from politics between Russia and Germany. Something that would take ages to explain but research online is easily done.

Just as France and Austria, Russia and Prussia had gone back and forth from being best friends to at each others throats, then back again.

"Germany–Russia relations display cyclical patterns, moving back and forth from cooperation and alliance to strain and to total warfare. Historian John Wheeler-Bennett says that since the 1740s:

Relations between Russia and Germany...have been a series of alienations, distinguished for their bitterness, and of rapprochements, remarkable for their warmth....A cardinal factor in the relationship has been the existence of an independent Poland...when separated by a buffer state the two great Powers of eastern Europe have been friendly, whereas a contiguity of frontiers has bred hostility."

When Germany sided with Austria against Russia (WWI) the hate was on again. Alexandra, her daughters and other "German" women were at forefront of a great hate.

By 1920's however relations between Germany and Russia were cordial again, then came WWII.

This off and on again this is still seen today. Merkel didn't trust Putin an inch, and with good reasons. But Germany has need of Russia for a host of reasons (including natural gas and oil), so there never will be a total break.

R356 Great scene. George V was a little man who loved little houses. His son said 'ou don't know my father util you've see York Cottage his favorite home. Both Nicholas and George would have been happier as country gentleman managing a farm then as kings.

FWIW Princess May of Teck grew up comparatively poor, in fact her parents were part of the penniless German relations to BRF.

She hit the royal jackpot when first engaged to Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale (despite Queen Victoria's initial misgivings..), and heir to the throne.

Lightening struck twice when after Prince Albert died his younger brother now HRH Prince George, The Duke of Cornwall and York who was now the heir, Prince George also "inherited" his brother's fiancée. But unlike Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon since Prince Albert and Princess Mary were only engaged (for just six weeks at that), and never married there was no bothering about a man laying with the relict of his brother.

George V kept Queen Mary on a very tight lead indeed. But OTOH she never had to worry about money ever again, and occupied one of the most exalted positions in world as Queen Consort of UK and Empress Consort of India.

If you are interested in this period, I highly recommend Miranda Carter's book George, Nicholas, Wilhelm. It superbly recounts how the weak characters of these three little men ( in stature as well as intellect) lead their nations into a world war that killed 20 million men, women and children. The Kaiser in particular comes off as Trump in ostrich feathers. That Wilhelm got of scott free and wound up with a young second wife and died peacefully in his bed at 82 proved that karma is a joke.

R363 Actually Alexandra did far more to help the Russian soldiers then Mary's hospital walkabouts. Alexandra and her two oldest daughters were accredited Red Cross nurses. Alexandra assisted in surgery. Disposed of amputated arms , legs and penises. Yet she was universally despised. They called her Nemka ( the German woman). Perception is every thing if you are a nation's leader. Perhaps the Windsors had a better PR machine.

Touché

She sure as hell disposed of my penis.

@ R355

[quote] "Royal Mob".

That is not a Russian word.

[quote] Alexandra's letters to Nicholas were nauseatingly soppy and sappy

You can't complain about her language if you're reading a translator's interpretation of her language.

Queen Mary had two pillows in her bedroom; one embroidered with "GM" and other "GMN"

First was "Georgie May" and second "Georgie May Not". HM used these pillows to indicate when she was having her lady's days and or otherwise indisposed, thus had a "headache" far as her husband was concerned.

Unlike his father and certainly eldest son and heir, George V confined his tackle to the marriage bed exclusively.

Queen Mary was rather like many other Englishwomen of the time; there was never any question of refusing to do her wifely duties. Well other than being "indisposed".

OTOH many members of British and extended royal family often spoke to Queen Mary as to why she allowed her husband to be such a tyrant and bully to their children.

Queen Mary's response was simple; "I must always remember my husband is also my sovereign".

To end of her days, even as a widow IIRC Queen Mary wore her skirts from another era, long down to the ground or close enough.

Once HM decided to test the waters. She had one of her ladies dress in a shorter skirt then come down to get into a waiting carriage (king and queen were off to some event). George V spied the young woman as she emerged from palace and had a royal fit. HM ordered the offending woman back indoors to change at *once*. Queen Mary had her answer, and never bothered again apparently.

It was in part of Queen Mary's image as this formidable battle-ax going around in weeds that when Queen Elizabeth was widowed she wasn't about to be a "dowager" (which wasn't possible anyway because Queen Mary was still alive), but set about managing being a widow in a totally different manner. First she took "Queen Mother" (use was strongly pushed by Grey Men and others who feared commoners wouldn't understand difference between HM The Queen, and Queen Elizabeth, and get them mixed up) , but Queen Elizabeth didn't spend rest of her life in weeds.

This under-stairs courtiers' alleged tattle-tale would be nauseating if I believed any of it to be true.

Don't knock it pal. Large parts of what we know about various royals and or their lives comes from ladies and gentlemen at court. Either their direct accounts and or from their diaries and other writing.

Like all queen consorts Queen Mary had a small army of ladies of various ranks.

Alix: I even wonder if you hear me half the time.

Nicky: Just now I find you all too audible.

R373. Unlike the rather passionless marriage of George and Mary. Nicky and Alix literally could not keep their hands off each other. Reading their letters of this middle aged couple with all their endless Snooky- Ookums language becomes quite cloying. During the war when he was at the front Nicky especially missed her attention to his "lil boy" as he called it. I embrace you "down there" was his endearment. He would write he was coming home and horny so "please don't have Mrs Beecker over" Mrs Beecker was Alexandra's euphemism for her period. Someone up thread mentioned they found condoms in Nicholas luggage. Don't know why? He was grimly faithful to his wife and she was way past the age of getting pregnant. Perhaps he handed them out to his guards?

Is it bad to masturbate to Big Nicky?

R373 Unlike Nicholas who had iron self control and almost never lost his temper or even raised his voice; George V was famous for his bellowing rages. He was a nasty little man with a nasty big temper.

R378 Wank away.

"My darling you must be Peter the Great.! Be Ivan the Terrible! Crush them under your will! Russia loves to feel the whip!"

[quote] Be careful to whose wagon you hook up to.

Yeah I’m pretty sure nobody here is fucking a Bolshevik.

[quote] Alexandra's letters to Nicholas were nauseatingly soppy and sappy

That was pretty standard for the day. For some reason, women were supposed to write ridiculously floris letters to their luvvahs.

[quote] You can't complain about her language if you're reading a translator's interpretation of her language.

They wrote to each other in English

Are you sure nobody here *was* fucking a Bolshevik, r382?

^ You rang

The movie "Nicholas & Alexandra (1971)" was not THAT bad.

Tom Baker sure did have BDF as Rasputin. As well he should have.

R384 There are millennials here on Datalounge who dream of a Socialist revolution and the downfall of the state.

They were Bolsheviks, not socialists. Communists, Soviet. There are different types of socialism just like there are different kinds of capitalism. Regulated capitalism is what we had in the 1950s & 1960s. Now we have unregulated capitalism. Big difference.

R362

English was the common language that Nicholas and Alix could communicate to each other by spoken or written word.

French was the official language of Imperial Court, as it was all over Europe and world for that matter at least for diplomatic purposes (just look at your passport). But by middle or so 1800's English began to become main language of international communications.

Besides his native Russian, Nicholas was fluent enough in English that his father boasted he could fool an Oxford professor. Nicholas knew French and German so well many at court and elsewhere commented his native Russian was softened by those influences.

Alix of Hesse-Darmstadt of and by the Rhine OTHO was another matter.

Her Wiki entry says:

"Alexandra struggled to communicate. She spoke English and German fluently, but she struggled to speak French, the official language of the court, and she did not learn Russian until she became Empress. She eventually learned Russian, but she spoke haltingly with a strong accent.

[quote] Besides his native Russian, Nicholas was fluent enough in English that his father boasted he could fool an Oxford professor. Nicholas knew French and German so well many at court and elsewhere commented his native Russian was softened by those influences.

He understood German, but had difficulty speaking and writing it. His communications with Kaiser Wilhelm were almost always in English. His correspondence to Queen Victoria was always in English. Nicholas' mother, the Empress Dagmar was a Danish princess by birth and hated everything about Germany and she was not keen on Nicholas learning the language. However, Nicholas spoke fluent Danish as per his mother's insistence. He occasionally wrote in Danish to her, but usually wrote in French, and sometimes, in Russian to her. His letters to his Danish grandparents were in Danish, proofread by his mother.

Nicholas, his two sisters, and his youngest brother, Michael were as proficient at English as they were in Russian. This greatly impressed Queen Victoria and the Princess of Wales (later Queen Alexandra).

[quote]and the Princess of Wales (later Queen Alexandra).

Fun fact: Queen Alexandra (Edward VII's wife) was Nicky's aunt. His mum, Maria Feodorovna (Dagmar of Denmark) was Alexandra's sister. Alexandra's and Dagmar's brother, Prince Wilhelm, became George I of Greece, the late Prince Philip's grandfather, making Alexandra and Dagmar Phil's great aunts, and Nicky Phil's first cousin once removed.

The fact that the Royal Family was more English, German, French, or Danish than Russian was a big part of the problem. Over the last few centuries the royal family had Europeanized and modernized themselves and their court by not their country, and by the 19th century they might as well have been foreign conquerors, they had so little to do with their subjects.

Well much of that R393 stemmed from the Pauline Laws and Romanov RF house rules that forbade them from marrying commoners. By this one means just that, from nobility down to dead common. Romanovs had to marry other royalty or be removed from the succession, among other consequences.

Because of these rules and laws you had a succession of brides and grooms from Germany, Denmark, etc...

None of the so called "heirs to Russian throne" have contracted equal marriages, so that is that.

Keep in mind "royalty" meant from a house that currently or once ruled. Thus a Bourbon or Napoleon, would pass muster, but scions from any of the various noble houses of Europe would not.

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Everyone knows that.

I think, like the French Revolution, the PEOPLE of Russia were fucking suffering, starving and had had enough. The anti-German sentiment did Alexandra no favours, however, a happy people would never allow a revolution to happen. People are like children, they generally welcome leadership, especially one ordained by God. But when they end up unfairly suffering at the expense of their leaders' lavish living, then enough is enough. It happened in France. It happened in America. And it happened in Russia. Had Nicholas and Alexandra tried even just a little bit to be seen in public with the people, working with the Gosduma, made their people happy through some type of social programmes, then all this could've been avoided.

Rasputin takes out his 13 inch cock and tells Nicholas to do as he says or his son will die....

It needs to happen again in America.

The grand duchesses had Hibernian accents - Irish or Scottish - that they acquired from their nurses and nannies. An English tutor - Sidney Gibbes - to correct this. Alexandra was in Russia for twenty years and her Russian was good. People who hated the monarchy used to attack Alexandra as not being Russian enough. It's an interesting fact that she made an effort to learn that peculiar Russian dialect that was spoken by religious people in the countryside. Priestly families married among themselves and had peculiar names and spoke this language. Rasputin spoke it and Alexandra could not understand him when he spoke Russian. Her friend Anna had to translate it for her. Almost all of the monks and nuns she met spoke it. Sometimes it would appear that she didn't understand what a religious person said to her. One nun predicted her death in the last days and she appeared to miss what she had said. It was almost impossible for her to carry on a normal conversation with Rasputin. That is why she had Anna meet with him on her behalf and convey messages. She met Rasputin only a few times a year. Anna met with him on a regular basis.

Queen Victoria's theory was that if they were all related and inter-married it would ensure the peace of Europe..We know how well that works.

^ Luckily Harry doesn't have a 2 million man army.

" Priestly families married among themselves and had peculiar names and spoke this language. Rasputin spoke it and Alexandra could not understand him when he spoke Russian."

Did the little prince and princesses speak Russian, including the priestly dialect? Could the boy understand Rasputin?

The priests had to talk to the people, so they must have spoken Russian Russian too.

Kim Cattrall as Cleopatra??? Sorry, just needed to state that, back to the Tsars now.

The religious language had more Slavonic in it and was old-fashioned with like thees and thous in it. There is still some of this even today - priestly families are becoming peculiar again. The Old Believers also spoke their own dialect. You could tell them also from their names sort of like if religious kids in the US were named Noah, Joshua, Neamiah or girls Faith, Prudence, Hope, Pareskevia.

^ Like the Amish speak a 18th century version of English?

When the Romanov's visited the England, King Edward made a comment to Alexandra "Where did those girls get their Scottish accents?

^ Interesting considering King Edvard had a noticeable German accent.

I worked for an Italian company where when I spoke to them in the Italian office they spoke English fairly well but because they learned it in England they spoke it with an English/ Italian accent which I didn't know was even possible.

When the rest of the world studies English at an advanced level, they typically learn British English and not American English.

That may differ in some American-centric industries, like aviation.

We're obsessing over accents now in this thread. But has anyone commented on the accents in the film?

Some English actors can convincingly play a Russian character. The one actor in this film that I remember sticking out like a sore thumb was poor Jack Hawkins. He's fine playing English military men or even Quintus Arrius in Ben-Hur but I thought he was noticeably inappropriate in this English Pageant Film.

R412 Was is Jack Hawkins or Charles Gray dubbing him?

Back to the film, OK?

Janet Suzman is a great theater actress but films was never her proper milieu.

Films WERE never her proper milieu, I mean.

R409 Not really. Since every film Nazi had better English accent then the Queen

[quote] Did the little prince and princesses speak Russian, including the priestly dialect? Could the boy understand Rasputin?

Tsarevich and Grand Duchesses. Yes, they spoke Russian and because they were native speakers, unlike their mother who learned Russian as an adult, they would have understood some of the "priestly" dialect. There would have been others in attendance who would have been able to bridge any communication problems. Rasputin would never have been alone with the Imperial children. There would have been servants, ladies-in-waiting, and Alexei's bodyguards present or very close by, most of whom would know all levels and variances of Russian. Because of Alexei's health, his parents made sure he was never without someone guarding him.

This is Klementy Nagorny, Alexei's personal bodyguard/nanny. He was originally a sailor on the Imperial yacht, The Standart

Here is Nagorny's story. He insisted on accompanying the family to Siberia but told friends he didn't expect to survive. He acquired the special enmity of the guards with his attempts to protect the children. He was taken away and shot several days before the rest of the family.

Everyone is talking more about history than the actual movie.

R419 loyal to the end. The other Alexei’s bodyguard changed his attitude and began to command Alexei after the revolution making him his servant. I don’t know what happened to him but he seemed a dreadful person.

Roderic Noble plays Alexi in the film as far more aware of his position as Tsarevich (heir apparent). The scene were he asks his father Nicholas 'Why did you abdicate for me?" You didn't even ask! I could have been a Tsar! The actual Alexis reacted to the abdications with puzzlement but never asked about his claim to throne. I think among all of the family Alexis knew he would not live very long and never be Tsar. He is quoted as saying:

"I am not afraid of dying. I'm afraid of what they will do to us here. When I am dead build me a little shrine in the woods"

Well he got his shrine.

Loving this thread -- thanks to everyone above! I read Massie's book when it came out and remember hardly being able to put it down. Alas, I barely remember the movie.

There were some hot sailors on the Imperial yacht, The Standard. (The linked page starts with The Standard's china, but page down a bit.)

Damn, those are some HOT sailors! That's one of my fantasies: my own yacht with a male crew selected as much for their skill as for their beauty!

And if I could have a yacht as beautiful as the Standart....

I wonder what happened to that yacht. Sold for scrap?

The Soviets converted it to a minelayer in the mid-30s, then scrapped it in the early 60s.

That yacht was clone heaven.

The interior must have been quite grand.

Thank you, R422, I love that little shrine!

Because it's dedicated to just the royal children, NOT the tsar and tsarina.

Suzman got an Oscar nomination and so did Redgrave, that same year, for another historical drama, "Mary, Queen of Scots", so I guess it worked out OK.

Well...

Mary Queen of Scots was rubbish

She was better in The Devils

R433 Mary Queen of Scots was taken from a play made up for Americans who can't cope with Shakespeare.

John Hale wrote an original screenplay for "Mary, Queen of Scots".

It was an original screenplay, r435. Mary of Scotland by Maxwell Anderson was filmed in 1936 with Kate.

John Hale couldn't get copyright from Maxwell Anderson.

Maxwell Anderson made a career specialising in plays made up for Americans who can't cope with Shakespeare.

And Hal Wallis, the crass man from Las Vegas, loved making movie pap from Maxwell Anderson's ersatz-Shakespeare. And he also attempted the disastrous 'Becket' which is full of historical mistakes.

Well then, just off with their heads, r439.

Oh, that Mary of Scotland...

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Prince Philip’s DNA was used to identify the remains of the family. He had close ties, obviously, with the family but what happened in Russia motivated King George to send a war ship to pick up baby Philip and family when the Greek monarchy was going up in flames a few years later.

"Mary Queen of Scots was rubbish"

The movie, or the queen?

Because she was a rubbish queen all right, deposed because she had no clue how to rule Scotland.

R444 she was focused on dick. DL can understand that

She was out of place. She was essentially a pampered French Catholic princess in a barbarian Protestant Scotland. What the hell do you do with these people? Set some spoiled Beverly Hills Dingbat in the middle of Appalachia and tell her she's "in charge" and you'll get the same result.

President William McKinley use to throw a table cloth over his wife Ida when she had epileptic fits at formal White House dinners. He would go on merrily chatting away while the shroud beside him convulsed.

That might have helped everyone concerned r447. Just whenever Nicky or Alexandra started babbling their stupid bubble nonsense, throw a table cloth over them and get on with dealing with the many, many problems of that hopeless damn country.

If there was a remake several of the court would be POC.

More photos of hot sailors from the Imperial yacht, please!

The Romanovs loved their royal yacht TheStandart. They said that some of their happiest times were onboard. The girls grew up with many of the crew and knew them all by name. As they got older the sisters would flirt with the young officers. When the revolution came they were shocked and hurt when all the Standart sailors abandoned their posts and went over to the insurrection.

Screenplay for 1971 film "Mary, Queen of Scots" is actually one of the more historically accurate pieces of work. Much of the dialogue between Elizabeth I and Mary, Queen of Scots came from actual letters between the two monarchs still preserved in archives of Parliament.

Certain liberties were taken with facts of course, Mary and Elizabeth never met in person, this despite every film or other productions always have some sort of face to face show down. My favorite is in opera "Maria Stuart" when Queen of Scots calls her royal cousin a "vile bastard".

Maria Stuarda Calls Elisabetta "Prostitute" & "Vile Bastard"

[quote] Mary and Elizabeth never met in person, this despite every film or other productions always have some sort of face to face show down.

Yes, all so unlikely. I try and imagine some sort of face to face show down between Churchill and Hitler.

The face to face show down between Gordon and the Mahdi was one of the many failures in this historical epic—

Same year Mary, Queen of Scots also saw Glenda Jackson play Elizabeth I on television in acclaimed "Elizabeth R" BBC series. Program was shown in USA on many PBS stations and was a hit, so much so Ms. Jackson won two Primetime Emmy awards.

As if all that weren't enough 1971 was also year film "Sunday, Bloody Sunday" was released

Yes, R455, we got a lot of Glenda at that time.

I still don't think she deserved so many Oscars so quickly. Neither did Luise Rainer.

My favorite Glenda performance is in Stevie.

I thought Mona Washbourne was the star of 'Stevie'.

She was, r458...

They made us watch it in high school. I hardly think it the failure you do OP

Hey bitches, the Kindle book is on sale for $2.99 right now.

But, bitch, reading a book is hard work compared to watching a movie, bitch.

Michael Jayston was one of the best things about TINKER TAILOR SOLDIER SPY as Peter Guillam and considering the cast, that’s high praise.

He shat all over Benedict Cumberbatchbin the film from a great height!!

Who's the bitch who greyed out the OP's post?

This bitchery inhibits free-posting.

Was the movie as boring as the long-winded posts it inspired?

469 t wasn't boring, or see, it didn't have any spice it character to it. It was very matter of factly. You could've inserted a narrator and make it, basically, into a documentary

Let's get to 500 replies!

Wasn’t Fiona Fullerton purty? The royal daughters were well cast. I wonder how many of the actresses who played them on drugs? Well, it was the late 60s/early 70s.

[quote] Even David Lean's vastly superior film of Zhivago (filmed in Spain) could capture any of the stench of Russia.

Dear R1, we know you meant to say that David Lean's vastly superior film of Zhivago DIDN'T quite capture the stench of Russia.

Zhivago had a strong, scrupulous director with a smallish cast and a muscular script (and Alec Guinness providing a voice-over narration) helping to tie up all the strands of the plot.

"Doctor Zhivago" was gorgeous but fell short of its potential, and I've always blamed Omar Sharif for that. IMHO he was a bit of a miscast, I mean he was charismatic and charming but was never one to project deep feeling, and has a role ever called for more deep feeling?

And he had little chemistry with Julie Christie, and the film is supposed to be all about passion, and you're supposed to care deeply about this guy's suffering and his feelings for his wife and his girlfriend. But it's hard to care when Sharif is all charisma and no passion, I mean I was wondering why they were making a film about this guy and not Julie Christie's character. I liked her more, and she sure was leading an interesting life.

I've been re-reading "Nicholas and Alexandra" by Robert Massie. It's a very well researched and informative biography. Here's a memorable exchange between Nicholas and Mikhail Rodzianko. Rodzianko, who was State Counselor and chamberlain of the Imperial family, Chairman of the State Duma and one of the leaders of the February Revolution of 1917, during which he headed the Provisional Committee of the State Duma. He was a key figure in the events that led to the abdication of Nicholas II of Russia:

Rodzianko: "Your majesty I consider the state of the country to have become more critical and menacing than ever. The spirit of all the people is such that the gravest upheavals may be expected. All Russia is unanimous in claiming a change in government and the appointment of a responsible premier invested with the confidence of the nation. Sire, there is not a single honest or reliable man left in your entourage; all the best have either been eliminated or have resigned. It is an open secret that the Empress issues orders without your knowledge, that Ministers report to her on matters of state, . Indignation against and hatred of the Empress are growing throughout the country. She is looked upon as German's champion. Even the common people are speaking of it." " Nicholas (stubborn and stupid as a mule): "Give me the facts. There are no facts to confirm your statements."

Rodzianko: "There are no facts, but the whole trend of policy directed by Her Majesty gives ground for such ideas. To save your family, Your Majesty ought to find some way of preventing the Empress from exercising any influence on politics. Your Majesty, do not compel the people to choose between you and the good of the country."

Nicholas: "Is it possible that for twenty-two years I tried to act for the best and and that for twenty-two years it was all a mistake?"

Rodzianko: "Yes, Your Majesty, for twenty-two years you followed a wrong course."

The biography went on to say "Rodzianko's was the last of the great warnings for the Tsar. He rejected them all."

R470 I agree with you. And I say with some trepidation because I haven't read Boris Pasternak's book because my life is too short for its multi-storied in-depth plotting.

Omar Sharif may have been under contract to MGM and Carlo Ponti but he was passive and hopeless. The role needs a man like Maximilian Schell who could portray intellect and the ability to write readable poetry.

I'm no fan of Christie and her goatish-lower-lip either but I doubt Boris Pasternak would have her placed her at the centre of his massive novel because I suspect he was somewhat of a male chauvinist.

^ Dittoski

The overture by the London Philharmonic conducted by Sir Richard Rodney Bennett accompanying the final scene . Bravissimo!

^ Was there a disco version?

A few years later...

R276 That person is a dancer rather than a singer.

Is is supposed to be pronounced as "Ras-pew-teen"?

Sir Laurence Olivier has a very good speech about the needless wars. Very poignant.

To this day Mikhail Rodzianko is vilified as the man responsible for Tsar Nicholas II's abdication and by extension Russian monarchy. Far as many are concerned then, since and now all the ills that have befallen Russia can be traced directly back to end of the Romanovs rule, which of course Rodzianko is held primarily if not solely responsible.

Mikhail Rodzianko ended very badly, dying basically in poverty with his name one of execration. So much so his heirs still are struggling with events and their famous (or infamous) ancestor's role.

For the record this sort of still fighting ancient history is rather common. There are still royalists in France that want nothing to do with those whose ancestors voted for regicide (execution of Louis XVI) for instance.

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[quote] To this day Mikhail Rodzianko is vilified as the man responsible for Tsar Nicholas II's abdication and by extension Russian monarchy.

He doesn't deserve to be "vilified." He tried to warn Nicholas that if changes were not made (like not doing everything his witless wife told him to do, for instance) there would be revolution. And Nicholas would not listen or do anything at all. The revolution was due to Nicholas's stupidity and incompetence, not Rodzianko.

Rodzianko did everything he could to save the monarchy. His last telegram to Nicholas begging him to appoint a responsible government was just two days before riots broke out. The dim wit Nicholas response was "Fat Rodzianko has sent me some rubbish I won't even bother to read." Then he went back to playing dominos.

During the last months of his reign those around Nicholas were stunned by his more than usual passivity. He seemed to be "walking in a dream". He drifted off during staff meetings looking out the window . The representatives who took his signature on his abdication remember his almost supernatural calm. "The Tsar signed away the empire as if her were ordering luncheon." His trance like comment "now I will go to Livadia and grow flowers" sums it up. Many believe he was being given hashish cigarettes' (he smoked 4 packs a day) by Alexandra's quack Tibetan doctor/spiritualist Petr Badmayev. He was also giving Sunny speedballs of cocaine and opium to "calm her nerves". Nicholas wasn't detached he was high as a kite.

They shouldnt have screwed over rasputin

[quote] They shouldnt have screwed over rasputin

What on earth do you mean by that? Rasputin was a horror story, a drunken, horny, creepy slob. He knew nothing of politics but would tell "Sunny" how to run the government. She of course did everything he said. She considered him some kind of savior; in letters she called him "Our Friend" as though he were God. No wonder he got assassinated. He was this abominable asshole and he was running the country.

OP The subject matter is of little interest to most filmgoers.

Film is free on Amazon Prime Video currently

R486

The actors get lost in a dull, talky script and the costumes and draperies are generally more attention getting

It's long!!!

I want Nicholas to be my little czar bitch haha

^ Been there done that.

Like Dr. Zhivago it had mostly English actors portraying Soviets and several of them didn't seem period at all.

The last 3 minutes of the film are effective see R474 as is the score. It's the previous 180 mins that are a bit trying.

Only a few more replies. Who would have thought this would have been such a big thread.

Epic movie, epic thread. Many interesting tangents.

Alexandra aka Sunny ( someone had an ironical sense of humor) was always writing her Nicholas aka "lil hubby" about her having "Beecker" or the "Lady" aka her period. Can you imagine this crazy Frau on the rag?. No wonder Nicholas ran away to the front and smoked hashish fags.

R596 epic story, ok movie

R497

Thanks to habit of royal families using same set of names over and over (usually those of various saints such as Mary, Elizabeth, Alexandra, George, Nicholas, etc....) many families already had one or more persons with same name. Thus often various nicknames were assigned within said families to tell one from the other.

Princess Alix of Hesse Darmstadt of and by the Rhine was called "Sunny" as a child within her family (including Queen Victoria her grandmother) because of her (then) bright disposition. As an adult however the nickname was only used between Nicholas II and Alexandra.

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Yet another...

The other "Princess Alexandra" in BRF at least was Alexandra of Denmark, consort to Edward VII and mother of George V.

Of course the two women were no where near in age, but if writing or speaking about an event or something where one or more princesses Alexandra were present, it does help to distinguish which was which.

Let the sunshine in.

R499 - You are totally correct. Queen Marie of Romaine was referred to by her nickname of Missy and her daughter Princess Marie of Romania was referred by her nickname Mignon after the opera.

Nicknames for Royals are demeaning.

R495 I prophesied as much aback at R5.

Watching it for the first time now. Much better than I expected and loads of great British actors. I’m ordering the book after

Tom Baker had BDF so he was perfect casting for Rasputin.

This thread is as big as Russia and as long as the film

R509 but fascinating. Alix especially, shy but very stubborn hated by Russian people. Rarely smiled in public but Nicky called her Sunny because she was very different in private family life.

R240 I think Eric Porter was a great Stolypin. He came across as the sane one during the craziness.

Does anyone know what opera they were attending before he was murdered?

I think Michael Jayston was a great Nicholas II!

"Rarely smiled in public but Nicky called her Sunny because she was very different in private family life."

Every single picture of her as an adult is dour. When she was a young woman the portraits and photos look sad and vulnerable, when she was a young wife she looked unhappy and withdrawn, when she was older she looked positively suicidal. Which was probably true, considering the issues with Alexis, being the mother of a disabled child is awful enough even when the fate of a nation doesn't depend on his health.

Still, if I'd known a young married woman who always looked that pensive, I'd suspect her husband was treating her like dirt.

I watched this film last night again. A few notes:

Michael Jayston and Janet Suzman give good performances. Why wasn't Jayston nominated for an Oscar? Suzman was. Olivier should have at least been given a Supporting Actor nomination.

There is so much history, characters, and countryside. I do not think any movie, even a three hour one, could fit all of it into one coherent story.

And it's the 104th anniversary of an Ekaterinburg basement today

r514, the Best Actor nominees that year:

Gene Hackman in The French Connection (winner)

Peter Finch in Sunday, Bloody Sunday

Walter Matthau in Kotch

George C. Scott in The Hospital

Topol in Fiddler on the Roof

Who would you swap out for Jayston?

I've never seen Kotch, so can't say about Matthau. It's been decades since I saw The Hospital, but I can say that Scott's performance doesn't linger in my memory. Hackman, Finch, and Topol all are firmly in my memory, so they stay, as far as I'm concerned.

R516 Topol? Zero Mostel should have been in Fiddler

I just have to say, this thread is DL at it's best; the title of some random 70s costume drama comes up and there's all this discussion about the Russian history, the Tsars, etc. I think that's what keeps people coming back - what smart people post here.

It's a fascinating story, though once the political tide turned against N&A, you can imagine the British aristocracy thinking "if they show up here, all the flotsam & jetsam will be stirred up against us & we can't have that!"

Kind of random question - why, to this day, is Russia to incredibly anti-semitic? Granted, that's true of a lot of places, but given all their other problems, why were Russians obsessed with hatred for Jews?

"Topol? Zero Mostel should have been in Fiddler"

Not according to director Norman Jewison, who states in the recent documentary that casting Mostel on screen would have resulted in a Tevye via Brooklyn rather than Tsarist Russia.

When truth in casting still mattered....

Topol was also the right age. Zero was way too old by the time the film was shot. Tevye likely got married around 19 or 20 and he and Golde are only just approaching forty in Fiddler, not seventy.

I always enjoy watching Fiddler. All the songs that came out of that movie - they just don't make musicals like that anymore (and while I like Hamilton, it doesn't have the timelessness of Fiddler). It's just sad to think about that these little villages in Russia are now gone. And not unlike Trump, the Tsars reflected the anger of their people rather than pushing it down, so they're to blame.

How are we at 522 comments and no one is talking about how good Richard Rodney Bennett's score was?????

R523 We are! It is a beautiful score. One of the best of all time.

The hair evolution of lovely Lynne

R518, the government of Alexander III, who ruled at the end of the nineteenth century, had a lot to do with it. It issued a series of anti-Jewish laws and ignored, if not actually incited, numerous pogroms. Why? It distracted the peasants from the failings of the government.

[quote]How are we at 522 comments and no one is talking about how good Richard Rodney Bennett's score was?????

Someone was talking about the score at R32.