Most people abuse mind altering substances to combat emotional pain and trauma . AA and other twelve step programs will convince you it’s all your fault , and you’re powerless,and you will die if you leave the program. Thoughts?
Alcoholics Anonymous - a cure worse than the “ disease.”
|by Anonymous||reply 144||October 16, 2021 2:49 PM|
Oh ffs. Either drink or don’t, OP, just save us all the trouble of your tired lizard brain.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||October 12, 2021 9:45 PM|
People who join AA are not the same type of people to be brainwashed and "seduced" by a charismatic leader. They are completely different.
AA people have a goal to get sober and better their lives.
Cult People are seeking the acceptance from a "parental figure".
|by Anonymous||reply 2||October 12, 2021 9:48 PM|
The whole 'higher power' bullshit that AA espouses is ridiculous.
|by Anonymous||reply 3||October 12, 2021 9:51 PM|
I’ll drink to that.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||October 12, 2021 9:53 PM|
AA works for some and doesn't work for others. Live and let live, OP.
But you know what's really awful? Watching a chronic alcoholic die from cirrhosis of the liver. 12-Step programs may suck, but I highly doubt they're the worst outcome for an alcoholic or addict.
|by Anonymous||reply 5||October 12, 2021 9:54 PM|
Whatever works. AA works for some and doesn't work for others. Personally, I've never been. But the disease is so crippling that you have to go with whatever works for you. No way it could be worse than the disease.
|by Anonymous||reply 6||October 12, 2021 9:55 PM|
AA was invented in the 1930s by a sexual predator who could not write. He got rich off the AA Big Book and then left the royalties to his mistress. AA is the primary treatment program for alcohol rehab centers. They charge astronomical fees for plush settings and then bus the patients off to free AA meetings every night. A total racket.
But AA has such a stranglehold on recovery treatment that nothing ever changes and no one is allowed to question its efficacy because "your best thinking is what got you here."
|by Anonymous||reply 7||October 12, 2021 9:55 PM|
It definitely wasn't for me. I don't do well in forced social settings. But I know it's really worked for others.
I do wish they would let the "program" be updated with more current literature on addiction. Seems like it would help more addicts if they did.
But I don't really get the cult thing. No one has to go or has to stay in the program (unless court ordered). As far is the annoying cliques that form? That's just humans being human.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||October 12, 2021 10:16 PM|
I was molested
|by Anonymous||reply 9||October 12, 2021 10:41 PM|
R5, AA is the only way to abstinence? Your reply shows no compassion and quite judgmental.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||October 12, 2021 10:45 PM|
R6, it’s not a disease !
|by Anonymous||reply 11||October 12, 2021 10:46 PM|
If you don't like AA, then don't go. Jesus, it's not that hard.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||October 12, 2021 10:47 PM|
No, r10, I quick drinking and using without it. I went to a few meetings but it wasn't for me
|by Anonymous||reply 13||October 12, 2021 10:50 PM|
Faith based indoctrination is not science based medicine. Would you tell a severely depressed person to work the steps? Addiction is a medical/ psychological disorder. It’s not a spiritual malady . How is this nonsense court mandated and insurance covered with rehabs that follow 12 step model?!
|by Anonymous||reply 14||October 12, 2021 10:51 PM|
Often you don't have a choice. If you enter a residential treatment center, it will probably be 12-step based and you have to go AA, have to talk all the Orwellian doublespeak, work the steps, read the Big Book, do all the chanting - it's too much.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||October 12, 2021 10:52 PM|
R15, the brainwashing is real though . It seeps into your subconscious. It’s a totally defeating program
|by Anonymous||reply 16||October 12, 2021 10:54 PM|
R10, you may want to read R5's comments again. You missed the point.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||October 12, 2021 10:55 PM|
R14, it is covered because of the history of success. And, believe me, I've seen enough medical records to know that if someone doesn't want to stop, no amount of psychiatric care or "science" will get them to stop.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||October 12, 2021 10:58 PM|
R17, did they offer any other options ? Sounds like he’s saying you will die without 12 steps
|by Anonymous||reply 19||October 12, 2021 11:00 PM|
R18, less than 5% are successful in program. And when you factor in all the relapse returns , it’s negative %
|by Anonymous||reply 20||October 12, 2021 11:01 PM|
Wtf, r19? You sound trollish. I was supposed to offer "other options"?
In my case, a therapist who specialized in Rogerian, person-centered therapy helped me to stop drinking. He was a psychologist (had a doctorate) and was very good at his job. But I recognize that I was lucky to have access to someone like him. Many addicts don't have this.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||October 12, 2021 11:04 PM|
There are multiple recovery groups that do not rely on the spiritual/religious hoohah of AA, like SMART Recovery, LifeRing, and SOS (secolar Organizations for Sobriety).
|by Anonymous||reply 22||October 12, 2021 11:12 PM|
Yes, r22. But AA/ NA frown on leaving to say the least . If you tell them this is not for me or didn’t help me, they will have the usual retort “ it works if you work it.” More guilt and shame .
|by Anonymous||reply 23||October 12, 2021 11:19 PM|
Please. There is nothing so retributive in AA. I don't doubt that some people distort things - in this world at this time it can feel like 70% of the population is unstable and troubled. And of course non-tipped-to-deity groups exist.
I have an alcoholic family. Many have used AA. The ones who aren't religionists have said that they just translated "Power" and "God" as "Out there not me." That was my understanding in AlAnon.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||October 12, 2021 11:26 PM|
Keep Coming Back!
|by Anonymous||reply 25||October 12, 2021 11:27 PM|
R23, how circular of you.
No. No one I know - and it's a sample of 12, in my family alone - experienced what you seem to think is ubiquitous. None are in AA or AlAnon now, so they LEFT and know what they experienced. And why do you think that all groups are run by SHAMING GUILTERS? By the way, encouraging people to remain in intervention (while respecting their feelings and decisions, short of active self-harm or harm of others) is universal, sectarian or not.
Christ. The level of dumbshittery here.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||October 12, 2021 11:44 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 27||October 12, 2021 11:44 PM|
Honest Question. (I have never been to AA, just fyi)
For all the AA haters here, who are sharing their derision and disdain for AA.... Are you sober today?
I see AA as a camaraderie of people who are on the same journey and can relate to each other. Maybe a place to make friends with people who are sober. Irregardless of the "God and higher power" mumbo jumbo.
Also, I see meetings as a good place to go, when you would normally go to the kitchen and open that bottle of booze. A place to go during "Happy Hour" let's say, that will help keep you in line.
I know six people who have used AA. Four have been very successful with their sobriety (from 10 to 30 years) and two who failed and are now dead from alcoholism.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||October 13, 2021 12:05 AM|
R28, is a devout stepper and a deceitful cult member.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||October 13, 2021 12:06 AM|
What [R12] said. I went to AA for about two months in 1991 when I quit drinking. It was a good idea for me because it was me telling myself I had to keep up a regular reminder that I'd quit drinking. It began to get on my nerves with the Krisis Kathys overtaking every meeting, and the emotional four year old whining about the same thing week after week and never giving anybody else a chance. There was also this singular sensation that when I did speak there was a palpable sense in the air of thirty adults just awaiting my final breath, not listening to a word I said, so they could open their mouths and talk about something they felt was more important than what I'd said. I reckon I actually spoke three times at the most.
The one clincher was this twenty something freak in a crowded mixed sex meeting (men and women to you trans and trans adjacent) on a Saturday morning, talking about asking God to help him stop masturbating. The fucker was serious! That was the last meeting I attended. I didn't drink from 12September 1991 to 4July 1995. AA certainly helped for the first couple of months.
*Any* organization can be a cult. It's not the organization, kids. It's YOU that turns cult-like. You're always free to leave. Unless you're dumb enough to sign something giving over your worldly goods. Then you need a shrink, because AA isn't a substitute for a Mental Health Counselor.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||October 13, 2021 1:58 AM|
Addiction is a mental health issue, not a moral failing .
|by Anonymous||reply 31||October 13, 2021 2:28 AM|
Who is the DL Troll (OP) who is so fucking obsessed with hating AA in thread after thread after thread?
OP, if you don't like AA, then for God's sake, don't go.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||October 13, 2021 2:36 AM|
Oh r29 Grow the fuck up.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||October 13, 2021 3:13 AM|
[quote]AA works for some and doesn't work for others.
Yeah. That "some" is 15%. Which means it doesn't work for 85%.
I'm all for things to help addicts get/stay sober but the reliance on AA by the criminal justice system, along with AA's huge profile, should be reevaluated. Something with such an iffy success rate shouldn't be the go-to.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||October 13, 2021 3:15 AM|
WELL GEE I WONDER WHY I BLOCKED YOU MONTHS AGO.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||October 13, 2021 3:18 AM|
Everyone I've known that works the program seems to accept this idea that their addiction made them do the horrible things they did. "Oh, baby, take me back. Look, I have a white chip...I'm working the program!". I've put down narcotics and alcohol after a decade of abuse, but I take full responsibility for my actions during that time.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||October 13, 2021 3:21 AM|
If that's what it takes to keep them from doing "horrible things" then who cares. And addiction DOES make people do horrible things "users" are users. They "use" people to get their fix! And often, even after being sober, they continue to "use" people because its all they know. They don't know how to NOT use people. That's why I stay away from newly "sober" people. Just because they're not using doesn't mean shit. They master the art of manipulation.
I'm not talking about you r36. I'm speaking from my own experience with addicts.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||October 13, 2021 3:29 AM|
I’m approaching 37 years sober (my anniversary is in November) and it was AA that laid the foundation. I haven’t attended meetings regularly in 20 years but I owe the fact that I’m alive and well entirely to the support and friendship I found there.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||October 13, 2021 3:31 AM|
R37, the newcomer is the LEAST important person in the room right? What a self righteous prick you are.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||October 13, 2021 3:36 AM|
Addiction is explained here...
|by Anonymous||reply 40||October 13, 2021 3:39 AM|
so r38 , You are an example of what I hope people get out going to a 12 step program. I'm happy for you and hope your life continues in a positive and healthy trajectory.
|by Anonymous||reply 41||October 13, 2021 3:39 AM|
[quote] If you enter a residential treatment center, it will probably be 12-step based and you have to go AA, have to talk all the Orwellian doublespeak, work the steps, read the Big Book, do all the chanting - it's too much.
Why would i be forced to enter a residential treatment center?
You mean, like, by the law courts? At that point you DESERVE to be forced into treatment, and I have no sympathy for you.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||October 13, 2021 3:46 AM|
The article at Op is two years old.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||October 13, 2021 3:46 AM|
r39 ABSOLUTELY! ABSO--FUCKIN'-LUTELY!!! 100% !!!! YOU ARE NAIL-ON-THE-HEAD!
The newcomer is the MOST LIKELY person in the room to create chaos for those trying to maintain their sobriety!
You are a freshman. Earn your coins. Prove your worth! Prove your commitment!
I am a proud PRICK!!! The biggest PRICK you'll ever meet!!! Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||October 13, 2021 3:48 AM|
R44, you’re a selfish asshole whose only thing going for you is your long term sobriety. Sadly, there are countless pricks like you in the rooms
|by Anonymous||reply 45||October 13, 2021 4:12 AM|
[quote]r20 less than 5% are successful in program. And when you factor in all the relapse returns , it’s negative %
[quote]r34 That "some" is 15%. Which means it doesn't work for 85%.
How would such statistics be gathered? AA is anonymous. It’s not like a school where you register every year, and have a special file with your name on it in the administrative office.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||October 13, 2021 4:37 AM|
[quote] The article at Op is two years old.
That's fitting--so is the OP himself.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||October 13, 2021 4:51 AM|
I have never attended AA, but I attended 12 step meetings and found them helpful. I eventually looked outside the meetings for guidance as well. Some 12 step people frowned on this, but fuck 'em. I don't care where the lessons come from. I care about what works. I went to Smart Recovery, where I met a lot of people who rejected AA. Smart Recovery meetings are interesting because they are for all addictions in one meeting, not just alcohol. It's a cognitive therapy approach to recovery. I read about Buddhist recovery. I read [italic]Recovery―The Sacred Art: The Twelve Steps as Spiritual Practice[/italic] by Rami Shapiro, which explains the 12 steps reflected in the lessons from various religions.
I had a sponsor who liked the Big Book but said to take the 12 and 12 book with a grain of salt because Bill W. wrote it to make more money.
I think 12 step programs work. The articles that I've read about percentages of people it works for and doesn't work for include people forced to attend meetings and people who attend once and decide that the meetings don't work before they've even given them a chance, and as R46 asked, how did these studies gather their information? I don't think those reports paint an accurate picture. You need to want to be at the meetings for them to work, i.e., you need to want to change your life for any recovery program to work. I know that it took me many years to admit I had a problem, and nothing worked until I did.
I was fortunate to meet people at my first meetings who told me not to worry about the god part. "You'll figure it out," they said. I was also lucky to attend predominately gay meetings that focused more on a higher power rather than god. I do not believe in god, but I believe in beauty in nature, art, and music. I substituted "Good Orderly Direction" and "Group of Dudes" for God.
12 step meetings introduced me to meditation and reintroduced me to prayer. Meditation helps a lot. I don't pray much other than saying the serenity prayer, but that is enough. The serenity prayer encapsulates the most important lesson for me: learning to let go of the uncontrollable―which is pretty much everything and everyone.
If you don't like a meeting, find another one. Meetings are shaped by those who attend them. Meetings helped me break the isolation. Speaking of breaking isolation, I found Johann Hari's Ted Talk on addiction helpful.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||October 13, 2021 5:08 AM|
r45 MY SOBRIETY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE, YOU FUCKIN' FA**OT!!! Go fuck yourself!
Take responsibility for your own actions and stop blaming other people for your own dysfunctional shit, you bozo!
|by Anonymous||reply 49||October 13, 2021 5:19 AM|
R49, is drunk trolling
|by Anonymous||reply 50||October 13, 2021 5:21 AM|
[quote]How would such statistics be gathered? AA is anonymous
Yeah, uh, but the thing is, R46, many many in AA love nothing more than to tell you they're in AA.
But, also, there's way to do studies that are anonymous - and also people can choose to tell an academic study that they are/were in AA. There's no law against them signing up for a study that's for people in AA.
|by Anonymous||reply 51||October 13, 2021 5:39 AM|
AA bashing threads are a cure for insomnia. For the people who like it and get a benefit from it, it's great. For those who don't find it useful, walk on by.
I don't see what the problem is with you, OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||October 13, 2021 5:45 AM|
[quote]R51 people can choose to tell an academic study that they are/were in AA. There's no law against them signing up for a study that's for people in AA.
Where are those studies?
|by Anonymous||reply 53||October 13, 2021 5:46 AM|
[quote]Where are those studies?
Are you asking where they are now, like the results? Or what locations are the studies done?
I dunno where they were/are done. Probably all over. And the results are published in all sorts of academic journals, just like most studies of anything.
Here's a link to a study of a bunch of other studies. Scroll to the bottom to see all the studies referenced.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||October 13, 2021 6:12 AM|
[quote] [italic]Research on the effectiveness of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) is controversial and is subject to widely divergent interpretations.[/italic]
So, essentially worthless?
|by Anonymous||reply 55||October 13, 2021 6:54 AM|
I am doing a 12 step program that is not AA, but more like Alnon. While I can relate to the stories the people are so fucked up, which I get. I am fucked up too, hence joining these meetings. With that said, there definitely seems to a hierarchy and cliques. I guess it depends on the circumstances, but I don't won't to live in misery every day. EVERYTHING triggers these people and by people, I mean an an all mens, predominately straight group. I think working the steps are great for some healing I need to do, but I am very hesitant to connect with anyone in the program. I am new to this whole thing. The people from AA come to my group, as they are in several 12 steps, and some of them are hard core assholes. I just smile and am always polite b/c I don't want to trigger someone to use, but I feel conflicted. I feel safe to share, but not to be overly involved.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||October 13, 2021 7:51 AM|
AA has a stranglehold on the LA gays. But honestly, I'd prefer a gay who is trying to be accountable in their lives and better themselves to some of the monstrous non-sober gays who should be.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||October 13, 2021 8:56 AM|
not this again. Jesus if you have to keep posting about AA to get people chatting, why not mix it up a little bit. This take, which you keep repeating, is just really negative and sour. Not particularly informed either. Its like the ramblings of someone who refuses to get help for substance abuse attacking the program your friends and family keep begging you to try out
|by Anonymous||reply 58||October 13, 2021 8:59 AM|
there are many more options now than AA/NA . Courts offer other avenues as well. AA attendance is way down . Therapy and if needed, medication help so much. AA peeps white knuckle it. That’s why they are so neurotic and unhappy. It’s a bandaid.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||October 13, 2021 4:16 PM|
Addiction is a complex disorder. It needs to be addressed by true professionals not these crazies in the room .
|by Anonymous||reply 60||October 13, 2021 4:27 PM|
Signs of a cult : Opposing critical thinking. Ostracizing and shaming someone who wants to leave . Have their own literature and rules . Group speak/ slogans . Up in everyone’s business . “ you’re only sick as your secrets.”
|by Anonymous||reply 61||October 13, 2021 4:35 PM|
Jesus fuck. The anti-AA troll is just as fanatical as any 12-stepper.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||October 13, 2021 4:38 PM|
R62, just letting people know there are other paths to abstinence.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||October 13, 2021 4:39 PM|
R11 I feel so bad for you that you constantly feel the need to minimize the suffering of alcoholics.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||October 13, 2021 4:40 PM|
I don't "get" some of the steps. If I had to write letters to make "amends" to people, I'd rather just die. Just because you like the juice doesn't mean you treat people like shit and have ruined relationships.
|by Anonymous||reply 65||October 13, 2021 4:42 PM|
R65 I can see why that step is necessary though. For me, because I quit without AA, I never did properly atone for all the horrible shit I did while drinking. I still carry that shame and that shame could cause someone to relapse.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||October 13, 2021 4:47 PM|
It is NOT A DISEASE that is such bs. Its a CHOICE
|by Anonymous||reply 67||October 13, 2021 5:22 PM|
So make amends where needed, r66. You don't need to go to AA in order to do that. It just makes sense.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||October 13, 2021 5:25 PM|
Yes it is a cult. The members choose cult and cigarette addiction over alcohol addiction. They are still addicts.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||October 13, 2021 5:26 PM|
I'm in NA, which I find helpful. I take "higher power" as "something not me". It got me meeting people who knew what I was going through and had done the same shit as me. It also got me 1 our at a time I wasn't using which was a big deal at first. I tried Smart and I liked it as well. 12 Step groups actually encourage you to look at your own behaviour and be better going forward.
No one I've personally met has any problem with people seeking therapy or other help, in fact I think that's encouraged in the book, and in the AA book as well.
I tried the Sinclair method which a lot of people rave about and it didn't work. 12 Steps did. They don't for everyone.
I don't get how it's a cult though, it's your choice to go and you don't have to pay. Shrug. Whatever works.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||October 13, 2021 5:37 PM|
[quote]R61 Signs of a cult : Opposing critical thinking. Ostracizing and shaming someone who wants to leave . Have their own literature and rules . Group speak/ slogans . Up in everyone’s business .
You’re not describing the workplace?
|by Anonymous||reply 71||October 13, 2021 5:37 PM|
it "works" like 20 percent of the time
|by Anonymous||reply 72||October 13, 2021 5:38 PM|
R69 Oh, honey, the cigarette addiction was there long before they got to AA. Maybe longer ago than their first drink.
|by Anonymous||reply 73||October 13, 2021 5:38 PM|
AA is culty, but I've realized that addictive people are always going to be addictive and being addicted to AA meetings and AA culture is better than being addicted to alcohol. I know a former heroin addict who is now a total psycho about crossfit, extreme dietary regiments, and weird eastern spirituality. He's simply replaced his unhealthy addiction with less unhealthy addictions. It's not enough to just tell people to stop drinking. They need something to fill that gap and AA seems to do that.
|by Anonymous||reply 74||October 13, 2021 5:42 PM|
[quote]R60 Addiction is a complex disorder. It needs to be addressed by true professionals
Not everyone can afford or has access to that. AA is free.
And plenty of people that I’ve known from AA seek outside help in addition to going to meetings - it doesn’t have to be either/or.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||October 13, 2021 5:43 PM|
[quote]R74 AA is culty, but I've realized that addictive people are always going to be addictive and being addicted to AA meetings and AA culture is better than being addicted to alcohol.
I think addicts in general are extreme. Part of going through the steps is about realizing you’re not alone and addressing the unbalanced thinking/fear. Of course it doesn’t work for everyone, just like everyone doesn’t like the same kind of car, person, or house.
Aa is not a cult in that people are free to come and go, they’re not after your money, the program encourages members to make their own choices, there is no hidden agenda, there is no isolation from friends and family, and there is no charismatic leader you have to agree with. There is no system of control in AA - you can go to a meeting drunk, and even speak.
If someone wants to read about REAL cults, try this:
|by Anonymous||reply 76||October 13, 2021 5:54 PM|
AA is designed to induce shame and guilt . It also teaches you that you are profoundly different in every way from “ normies” and you will drink / use and die if you leave!
|by Anonymous||reply 77||October 13, 2021 6:12 PM|
AA encourages confession of sins( character defects etc) without any confidentiality clause . People have used it against others, especially controlling , crazy sponsors .
|by Anonymous||reply 78||October 13, 2021 6:15 PM|
R78, are you the poster who claims their sponsor made you clean their gutters every weekend?
|by Anonymous||reply 79||October 13, 2021 6:28 PM|
R44 has stated her boundaries
|by Anonymous||reply 80||October 13, 2021 6:33 PM|
I quit drinking about 12 years ago and have never gone to an AA meeting. I thought I was strong enough to handle on my own and also didn't want to live in misery as those who attended AA. Just reliving the horrible incidents of the past to not drink in the future...for me, I want to be happy and not drink.
|by Anonymous||reply 81||October 13, 2021 6:41 PM|
R68 it’s deeply unpleasant to revisit the damage you caused in your many drunken rampages, and people won’t do it unless forced.
R77 Alcoholics are profoundly different. We cannot enjoy a few drinks and then stop. We compulsively have to keep drinking until we’re drunk messes and pass out for the night. It’s an ugly life.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||October 13, 2021 6:49 PM|
I am for whatever works to get people healthy. Free from the addictions holding them back. It is good to have options.
|by Anonymous||reply 83||October 13, 2021 7:03 PM|
Twelve step programs are what the U.S. offers addicts instead of universal evidence based treatment because fuck you if you can't afford private rehab.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||October 13, 2021 7:22 PM|
Dejure is completely brainwashed. What a sad mentality to believe you’re so damaged that you are never well.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||October 13, 2021 11:00 PM|
Dejure is leaving Las Vegas level drunk.
|by Anonymous||reply 86||October 13, 2021 11:05 PM|
|by Anonymous||reply 87||October 14, 2021 12:47 AM|
Most sponsorships are perfunctory. They resent this serious obligation and lash out with abuse and control.
|by Anonymous||reply 88||October 14, 2021 12:55 AM|
R85 everyday of recovery is a blessing.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||October 14, 2021 1:45 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 90||October 14, 2021 2:06 AM|
Many of you queens need to go to Sex Addicts Anonymous.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||October 14, 2021 2:31 AM|
R91, is a fatty who can’t land cock
|by Anonymous||reply 92||October 14, 2021 2:33 AM|
Actual signs of a cult are a messianic leader (which AA doesn't have), a commandment to get rid of anyone in your life who isn't in the cult too (which AA doesn't have), a requirement to sign over your worldly goods to the cult (AA is free). This is a real cult. AA is annoying at times (in my group, there are more than a few souls who drank for like 2 years 20 years ago and go on about it), but if you don't like it, you can stop.
If a court forces you to go to AA, you have bigger problems.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||October 14, 2021 2:45 AM|
People who shit on AA always play slight of hand with their arguments.
Is AA better than therapy? Nobody has suggested that its an either/or. Most therapists understand their ability to impact clients behavior (aka NOT DRINKING/USING) is incredibly high when the client is in the office. Most clients do NOT drink or use drugs during therapy sessions. AA is a nice place holder in between therapy sessions, unlike therapy, it's free so the client can go to as many meetings as they need to because just like a therapy session, most people don't drink inside AA meetings. It's a great place to go for a person who doesn't want to drink for that hour.
Is AA better than medication that alleviates a desire to drink or use specific drugs? Nobody, anywhere, ever has suggested that people on medication steer clear of AA meetings. We do know that the inspiration for AA came during a hallucinogenic trip (it's in the big book) and the founder of AA was a huge proponent of introducing psychedelic therapy into the mix. That never came to pass although the 2020's are bringing an avalanche of new psychedelic assisted therapies (and maybe even some new psychedelic drugs) that can help. Lots of people leave the country to do Ibogain sessions to get off drugs. And Ketamine is available in big cities now, it's just too expensive for most people to afford (about $500 per session once every 5-6 weeks).
If someone I knew was a substance abuser and could afford DAILY THERAPY I would suggest it, in addition to AA. Anyone reading this--do most of the substance abusers you know have the resources and time to pay for daily therapy sessions?
Therapy, AA, medication, and anything else you can throw at addiction is helpful. More the better.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||October 14, 2021 3:30 AM|
[quote]AA and other twelve step programs will convince you it’s all your fault , and you’re powerless,and you will die if you leave the program.
Naturally, none of this is remotely true but these wet brains come to AA when it's really too late for them to comprehend much.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||October 14, 2021 5:25 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 96||October 14, 2021 7:29 AM|
It's culty but not a full blown cult. Some groups are worse than others on this and have leaders. Pacific Group in LA and its offshoot the Atlantic Group in NYC definitely were cults. Now that that cunt, their leader Clancy O, kicked the bucket we will see what happens. People were "unofficially" urged to go off psychiatrist meds there. That was persistent and widespread but they did it in a way thay allowed for deniability. There was sponsor abuse. People were told to not go to other AA meetings except to lure people into the Pacific or Atlantic groups. There's always a tendency toward developing to a cult in local AA meetings but most resist that. I'm over 30 years in, it's worked for me, but I'm on guard. I want to stick with loosey goosey gay AA meetings which despite all their faults are usually too independent minded to turn into a full cult. (Although there are some hawt messed up straight guys in the culty meetings which makes it tempting to go there so I can help them.)
|by Anonymous||reply 97||October 14, 2021 10:52 AM|
It’s a shame based program
|by Anonymous||reply 98||October 14, 2021 5:26 PM|
It's not perfect or even great for that matter, but it's good that it's an option. As many people have stated, most people cannot afford seeing a therapist everyday.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||October 14, 2021 5:29 PM|
Shame-based? Really? I'm in it and I feel like there should be *more shame, but it is determinedly shame-free.
|by Anonymous||reply 100||October 14, 2021 6:03 PM|
Well, all I can say is it worked for me. I have 30+ years clean and sober. I was lucky to get sober in NYC where there’s practically a million different meeting choices per hour, and you can pick and choose till you find a good fit, and adjust that as your life and interests unfold. Maybe it’s harder for people in smaller towns, or without a car.
One thing that was drummed into me from the beginning was “take what you can use and leave the rest.” I’m really surprised some people here still feel so victimized by an AA meeting that didn’t work for them. But it takes all kinds… and addicts/alcoholics aren’t known for being intuitively stable!
|by Anonymous||reply 101||October 14, 2021 6:07 PM|
Alcoholism is indeed a mental disease. I've seen it firsthand in my partner. It's a daily battle.
|by Anonymous||reply 102||October 14, 2021 6:08 PM|
^^ not r97 - congrats on your 30 years : )
|by Anonymous||reply 103||October 14, 2021 6:08 PM|
^^ Oh crap - that was about r101
|by Anonymous||reply 104||October 14, 2021 6:09 PM|
[quote]R102 Alcoholism is indeed a mental disease. I've seen it firsthand in my partner. It's a daily battle.
I think it’s often genetic. You can see repeated alcoholism in some family generations.
|by Anonymous||reply 105||October 14, 2021 6:11 PM|
It's so complicated. There are physical factors, cultural ones, mental ones. You can't separate them. And it's a bitch to overcome. Especially since America considers day-drinking to be awesome.
|by Anonymous||reply 106||October 14, 2021 6:20 PM|
R6 'No way it could be worse than the disease'
You should drink the coffee they serve at AA!
|by Anonymous||reply 107||October 14, 2021 7:32 PM|
R95, a lot of truth !! You AA nazi brainwashed toots
|by Anonymous||reply 108||October 14, 2021 9:54 PM|
R101, proves the notion that AA members really love to bash themselves ( alcoholics) whenever someone is critical or questions the program. AA teaches against self reliance . You are always sick. The slogan “ some are sicker than others “ confirms this .
|by Anonymous||reply 109||October 14, 2021 9:58 PM|
I get the impression that AA members are jealous of normal drinkers. Like Bill Maher said “ sobriety is overrated.”
|by Anonymous||reply 110||October 14, 2021 10:00 PM|
I’m a recovered alcoholic (not in AA) and will admit to being jealous of normal drinkers sometimes, r110. It is human nature to want what you can’t have. I also remember that I was a normal drinker at one time too, and even in the worst depths of alcoholism could appear ‘normal’ in public.
|by Anonymous||reply 111||October 14, 2021 10:24 PM|
Why should someone care if AA helps someone else?
|by Anonymous||reply 112||October 14, 2021 10:26 PM|
Because AA has the monopoly in the medical , courtroom and media ! They are Goliath .
|by Anonymous||reply 113||October 14, 2021 10:53 PM|
R111,you are not a real alcoholic according to AA.
|by Anonymous||reply 114||October 14, 2021 10:54 PM|
Goliath is one person and AA is not.
|by Anonymous||reply 115||October 14, 2021 11:19 PM|
AA headquarters is in the upper East Side of NYC . How do they afford that rent? Why did they have so much power in the courts, Hollywood and in the medical field?
|by Anonymous||reply 116||October 15, 2021 12:10 AM|
They don't r116.
"AA Headquarters" is called NY Intergroup and it's on 7th Ave and 28th Street, not the UES.
|by Anonymous||reply 117||October 15, 2021 2:02 AM|
It used to be on East 90th
|by Anonymous||reply 118||October 15, 2021 2:24 AM|
I think it's important to say something about AA that might help somebody to attend a meeting as opposed to being scared off by the comments above. There are no dues or fees. You are not deluged by fanatical members the first time you show your face, having clipboards filled w/pages you must sign in order to remain at the meeting. You are not required to do anything other than remain silent when others are speaking. You are not going to be called out, "Today we have a new attendee. Mrs. Norman Maine, will you stand up so we can introduce you?" It's anonymous. I can't remember if a donation plate is passed around, but you don't have to contribute.
AA for me, and I've said this upthread, is, if you will follow my analogy, like your together, healthy self saying to your self that is drinking too much that you're worried about, "You are admitting you have a problem with drinking too much alcohol. Attending this meeting is admitting to me, your healthy self, that you have a problem, and you're spending time doing something about it." That's all. You're allowing yourself to accept that you have a problem. And it may help to overcome the fear of that problem, wh. to many is a dirty little secret.
Listening to others who have the same problem is a step forward. That's all you have to do.
And before anybody accuses me of being a Big Book Thumping Fundamentalist Alcoholic, I quit attending AA after three months because of all the attention seekers taking over the meeting and denying others the chance to speak. But I have never thought those three months were ever a waste of my time. I had people tell me what would happen if I, "Went back out." They could go fuck. I wasn't desperate to mold my life around these meetings, I just wanted to be in a place where alcohol was looked upon as a gateway to a myriad of problems, big and small. And I stayed sober for four years on my own.
I would advise anybody who thinks they have a drinking problem to attend a meeting. Some of the people who speak have some helpful things to say. We're all human, and we're all vulnerable. It can help you to not feel so isolated or helpless or alone. It won't kill you.
|by Anonymous||reply 119||October 15, 2021 3:02 AM|
Excellent post r119. AA is anything but perfect, but let’s not throw it all away just because we don’t like parts of it (or any of it)? Addiction is a demon, and I therefore support any tool that helps an addict live to see another day.
Having said that, those who are anti-AA have mentioned that AA wants people to stay helpless, but that’s only half-true. Yes, they want the alcoholic to be helpless…..so that leaves room for outside help — a Higher Power. They do indeed want the alcoholic to stop relying on self and instead seek power outside of themselves, which is indeed a beautiful thing. We all know of course that it is rooted in Christianity, but AA does leave room for non-Christians to work the steps. I’ve known numerous people who did not have a Christian Higher Power — atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, etc. Again, it is far from perfect but I’ll take it, and no, I’m not a Friend of Bill W., though I was in my youth. It’s a great program and works if you work it.
|by Anonymous||reply 120||October 15, 2021 4:00 AM|
R120, if it’s so great why are you no longer a member? I think you’re being disingenuous.
|by Anonymous||reply 121||October 15, 2021 4:14 AM|
[R120], wow, I forget that part about admitting that we're helpless over the problem. I never admit I'm helpless about something. I admit I can't handle it, whatever the Higher Power is, I do something a Born Again Christian told me about on a Christian retreat in 1974, He told me he would tell God he was giving his problem to God, and asking God to take care of it. I'm not espousing this, but it makes a problem far more manageable if you can realize that you don't have any coping skills to guide you away from it. And it's not unthinkable to believe, as many do, that there is something out there many refer to as God or Allah, or Buddah, an entity that would understand your problem, and if you believe the possibility exists, would be able to show you that you do have coping skills, and finding them for you.
This is veering onto religious grounds, wh. is hysterical, because I consider myself a lapsed Catholic. But an example of this working for me was Christmas Day 1993, I was having a horrible time with a breakup. During a bike ride in subfreezing temps (that could explain it all. Ha!) I did the, "God take this problem away from me. I cannot handle it. It's poisoning my life." It actually worked. I'm not so pedantic as to start analyzing exactly what happened. But after that the helplessness I felt was never as strong again.
But to reiterate, whatever problem I'm experiencing, I know I personally possess the necessary skills to deal with it, but sometimes I cannot see the chewing gum for the wrapper. That's when I ask for help. Since undergoing chemo, I've never asked the Universe, or whatever that shower of shit is out there, for anything more than I already have. I spend a lot of time intentionally focusing on what I do have, and how much in my life is going the right way. Even when it seems things have gone to total shit, I force myself to recognize that although I may feel defeated, what's going wrong is the smallest percentage of the whole picture, and that I must remember how much is going well.
As far as drinking went, it had to be my decision, and my liver's, post chemo, when my liver simply wouldn't tolerate any alcohol to excess. An example of this is fixing a drink, and finding it hours later. If I go out to dinner I can have scotch and soda, at the most two. But I've noticed at the end of the meal, when the alcohol and ice have formed that big puddle, I don't drain the glass like I used to; I leave it. Draining the glass to me was a sign of my alcoholic tendencies. And because I walk home from the restaurant, the amusing thing is weaving around the sidewalk from the two cocktails I drank, and giggling about not drinking the final puddle, feeling sufficiently inebriated. But do I go home and continue drinking, as I used to? No, I typically fall into bed and zonk until the next morning.
|by Anonymous||reply 122||October 15, 2021 5:07 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 123||October 15, 2021 5:20 AM|
Sp back in the 1980s, when all my friends where dying these horrible deaths and my lover died in my arms of AIDS, I started smoking endless amounts of pot and chronically masturbating because I still had massive sexual desire but no willingness to have sex with another man. By 1988, I wasn't worried about all the jerking off but was very concerned about the chain smoking I did while JOing, Didn't want to develop heart disease or lung disease or cardiovascular disease. I started attending Narcotics Anonymous and SCA, Sexual Compulsives Anonymous at the Community Center on West 13th Street. I lived in lower Chelsea at that point.
Well, anyway, one night Saturday night I attended an SCA meeting and for two hours this poor soul spent two hours on the floor on his stomach kicking and pounding the floor with his hands and feet and screaming because he had managed to go for two years without masturbating but the day before he had seen this hot delivery man in his walk up apartment building and had to call in sick from work so he could jerk off all day. Well, it was so sad but so aggravating....
To exit the building, you had to go down the stairs and through the large main meeting room, where the Mirth and Girth group was having their annual leather party. Oh My God. After two hours of this poor guy pounding on the floor because he finally had to beat off after two years, I walked into this room of big hairy bears wearing. brief leather. My mouth dropped open and I immediately said to myself "I've been going to the wrong group!"
I dropped out of NCA and SCA but started having lots of safe fun with all those hot bears.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||October 15, 2021 5:47 AM|
R124, glad you got out . They are puritanical joy haters .
|by Anonymous||reply 125||October 15, 2021 5:49 AM|
[quote]R120 that leaves room for outside help — a Higher Power. They do indeed want the alcoholic to stop relying on self and instead seek power outside of themselves, which is indeed a beautiful thing.
There have been times sober I tried faith (in a very general way) and times I did not. You can substitute anything you want as your higher power, too. And change it (to something else, or nothing) as it suits you. “A power greater than yourself” can be the rooms of AA, the thinking behind it, the stars, a shared life force… whatever one can work with. Or not.
There are plenty of agnostics and atheists in recovery. You’re not graded on what you do or do not believe. You don’t have to comment or answer if anyone broaches the topic before or after a meeting. You do not have to have a sponsor, you do not have to work the steps (though people seem to grow more in general if they do.) Really, it’s all up to the attendee as to what they want to do, with or without AA.
Welcome to adulthood.
|by Anonymous||reply 126||October 15, 2021 5:54 AM|
[quote]R109 AA teaches against self reliance . You are always sick. The slogan “ some are sicker than others “ confirms this .
Why would one be in a recovery program if one were not sick?
|by Anonymous||reply 127||October 15, 2021 6:09 AM|
I love that the two insults R7 levels at Bill W is that he was a sexual predator and a BAD WRITER.
I don’t know which is worse!
|by Anonymous||reply 128||October 15, 2021 12:13 PM|
R127, you have to stay sick so you will never leave . And for the ones who leave after a while will be judged and shamed for not staying to help the new people .
|by Anonymous||reply 129||October 15, 2021 3:10 PM|
But no one knows anyone’s names or addresses. “Leaving” could constitute moving to Peoria.
I realize some at DL might judge and shame a member fir that… but is AA really like the CIA, where they follow and monitor members forever?
That would be awfully time consuming, with little gain.
|by Anonymous||reply 130||October 15, 2021 4:35 PM|
If someone judges and shames you in a forest but you’re not a tree that’s there, does it make a sound?
|by Anonymous||reply 131||October 15, 2021 4:46 PM|
A lot of steppers on this thread .
|by Anonymous||reply 132||October 15, 2021 5:46 PM|
r110 Of course alcoholics are jealous of people who can drink normally.
I quit cigarettes TEN FUCKING YEARS AGO AND I CAN'T STAND ANYONE WHO CAN HAVE A CIG HERE AND THERE AND STOP. I CANT EVEN STOP MYSELF FROM USING ALL CAPS. I WOULD GLADLY BLOW A HOMELESS MAN FOR THE ABILITY TO SMOKE OCCASIONALLY AND NOT HAVE IT TURN INTO A PACK A DAY HABIT (which it would within 1-2 months if I went out and had 1 cigarette tonight).
Whenever I see someone on TV smoking I think to myself, I can start smoking again on the day I find out I have a deadly, incurable disease. At least there is one good thing about that day should it ever come.
|by Anonymous||reply 133||October 16, 2021 4:23 AM|
My partner has been battling alcoholism for many years and when he's drunk (now daily) his personality completely changes from normal to sometimes insane and violent. He obviously needs help but I'm afraid of him joining the AA cult. I'm feeling really helpless these days. I don't know what to do.
|by Anonymous||reply 134||October 16, 2021 4:31 AM|
Leave him. He’s a mess.
|by Anonymous||reply 135||October 16, 2021 4:32 AM|
R134, Smart Recovery and therapy with possible medication
|by Anonymous||reply 136||October 16, 2021 4:35 AM|
I can't leave someone I love. Too many years together. It's not his fault. It's a sickness.
|by Anonymous||reply 137||October 16, 2021 4:37 AM|
Mmmm. Well, enjoy.
|by Anonymous||reply 138||October 16, 2021 4:38 AM|
im trying to imagine that r134 is a real person living with an alcoholic but is horrified by the idea of AA
|by Anonymous||reply 139||October 16, 2021 4:39 AM|
[quote] Whenever I see someone on TV smoking I think to myself, I can start smoking again on the day I find out I have a deadly, incurable disease. At least there is one good thing about that day should it ever come.
Ha, R133, I always think this too. Hopefully not until I'm an old man though.
But if I had an incurable disease, I would not ever want to start drinking again. Alcoholism is too miserable a life style for me to want to go back to, even if I knew I was dying. But cigarettes, they're pure joy.
|by Anonymous||reply 140||October 16, 2021 4:42 AM|
|by Anonymous||reply 141||October 16, 2021 4:44 AM|
[quote]R140 if I had an incurable disease, I would not ever want to start drinking again. Alcoholism is too miserable a life style for me to want to go back to, even if I knew I was dying.
The thing about “going back to drinking” for me is I never wanted a glass of wine or a cocktail… I wanted to - and did - get SLOSHED. There’s absolutely no appeal to me in the idea of having a drink now and then. In fact, that sounds like torture.
Blotto or nothing! So really, it’s best for everyone involved that I just stay dry : )
|by Anonymous||reply 142||October 16, 2021 4:55 AM|
Drunks are so funny. When they've been drinking, some of them turn into the cuntiests cunts who ever cunted but some of them turn into the sweetest, nicest people you never suspected they could be.
And then they die.
|by Anonymous||reply 143||October 16, 2021 6:39 AM|
We all die r143
|by Anonymous||reply 144||October 16, 2021 2:49 PM|