Hospital To Stop Delivering Babies After Employees Quit Rather Than Get COVID Vaccine

The deadline for all healthcare workers in the state to be vaccinated is Sept. 27. Some 165 of the approximately 650 hospital employees remained unvaccinated as of Friday, and have yet to declare what they plan to do, said CEO Cayer.

That the hell is wrong with these unvaccinated people?

Call the midwife!

You cannot force people to do what they don't want to. Well, except in dictatorial, totalitarian regimes. Into which the US is quickly degenerating.

Where are they going to work?

They will be back when they don’t get a paycheck and don’t get unemployment.

There should be a vaccine mandate. If you don't comply, you're fired.

Enough of this bullshit putting everyone else at risk.

Even if they quit, we have to stand firm. We can't back down.

R3 has never heard of paying taxes; needing vaccinations to attend public school; having health insurance; or, indeed, of rules, restrictions, and laws.

And he clearly has never lived in N. Korea.

R3, maybe you should try living in a real dictatorship like China.

What you just said would be censored in China. The insurrectionists would be in camps and never heard from again.

it is dangerous and reckless to have unvaccinated people around newborn babies, and these people are staff. WHAT THE FUCK?!

[quote]needing vaccinations to attend public school; having health insurance; or, indeed, of rules, restrictions, and laws.

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current novel virus called Covid-19. Which, contrary to R5's putting everyone else at risk nonsense, you can contract and spread regardless of whether or not you're vaccinated. Which is the ONLY thing about Covid that the medical community is 100% certain. Vaccines MAY reduce the severity of illness after contraction, but they do nothing to prevent spread. Masks MAY prevent the spread of the virus. Unlike those well-established, well-known required vaccines. Given that so much remains unknown, I cannot condemn those who choose not to be vaccinated at present.

[quote]clearly has never lived in N. Korea.

[quote]in a real dictatorship like China.

Please explain the differences between the dictatorial, authoritarian policies of the above-mentioned countries and the daily media harangues, public censures and dictatorial policies vis-a-vis Covid of the various US local, state and national governments.

I doubt they've really "quit". What they've done is staged a protest by walking out, in the way a child throws a tantrum when they don't get what they want.

Let them go. If someone who works in the medical profession can't see the benefit in them receiving a vaccination then it's better they find a different career path.

Just you wait. There are going to be a lot of services halted due to lack of man power. Profits will tank. The market will crash. Mass unemployment is detrimental for any economy. This is asinine. It's asinine to mandate this when people...healthcare professionals even, have legitimate concerns about the vaccine and want to wait. But yes, let's throw the baby out with the bath water. Because that's definitely what the most powerful nation in the world should do to remain as such.

Sucks for those needing services - but who the fuck wants to go to a hospital staffed by such idiots?

It's like eating Gas Station sushi ... what the hell are you thinking?

R13 What are these idiots waiting for exactly?

[quote]healthcare professionals even, have legitimate concerns about the vaccine and want to wait.

Look. I love nurses and both my mother and grandmother were RNs. But rank-and-file healthcare professionals are not always bastions of learning or intellect. And for whatever reason, many have become adherent to COVID conspiracies and misinformation campaigns.

[quote]I doubt they've really "quit". What they've done is staged a protest by walking out

r11 My mother works for the federal government. I will not specify which body. I'll just say it involves healthcare. And, thousands upon thousands of federal government healthcare professionals employees will be forcing termination of employment. In other words, they're not quitting. They are staying until they're fired. That's a legal nightmare. But let them fire you.

Keep in mind, these are well-educated, high achieving, STEM field employees. And they are hesitant to take the vaccine. I don't know why we're cherry-picking which scientists and physicians to trust, but umm...I trust my mommy. We'll just get fired. :)

Damn, it's too early. "adherent to = adherents of" at r15

Serious question. Is there anyone on here who is an actual physician or biomedical scientist? Microbiologist? Biochemist? Have any medical training whatsoever? I'm just curious.

I work for the federal government r18. I will not specify which body. I'll just say it involves healthcare.

[quote] And, thousands upon thousands of federal government healthcare professionals employees will be forcing termination of employment

They don't have to get the vaccine but they can also do weekly testing.

The problem with these people is they will forgo a great job, benefits and pension for a jab? What about the other vaccines healthcare professionals are required to get like the Hepatitis B vaccine? That's mandatory if you work in the health profession. I'm an RN and I cannot understand nurses who will not take the vaccine, especially with the Delta being so contagious and giving direct care to patients who may be infected. In fact all my friends and co-workers in the healthcare have taken the vaccine. It could be it's because we live in a Blue State.

There's also the fact that nurses are burnt out.

r19 Sir. Do you have any idea how vast the job categories are for the federal government? A fucking postal worker is a federal government employee, lol. It's not impossible for someone to work for the federal government. Here...get a job:

It's just like cops, R15. I was a hiring/training manager for a security company for many years and I was amazed at the former-and-often-current police officers that would apply for security guard positions. Many of these guys are just not that bright - and most have serious macho/authority/alpha issues. And, yeah, often they're Republican 'muricans.

R16 Happy with that. I'd rather suffer a short term staffing issue than give into the demands of some anti vaxxers who are better off out of their job anyway. I hope no one gives in. Manipulative behaviour cannot be rewarded or they'll just keep doing it when the terms of their employment changes. Don't like those terms? Go.

[quote]What about the other vaccines

I really wish people would stop saying this. :(

This is not the same thing. There are still many open ended questions and concerning limitations with regards to the development of this specific vaccine for a virus in, of all virome families, the coronaviridae family. I'm not against it. I think it should be optional, and people who have reasonable concerns and don't feel comfortable taking it yet and would like to wait until the Phase III clinical trial data has been released and studies completed shouldn't be forced to put something in their bodies that is, let's be clear, brand new and developed under unusual circumstances.

R3 is a cunt. Now, we aren't much about loving kids on DL, but any DL-er will agree that when some asshole puts a baby in danger, he deserves a beating. These anti-vaxxers shouldn't even be allowed around babies.

R13 - I will have you know that some of the best sushi I ate was at gas stations on Ventura Boulevard...then again, they don't call that sushi road for nothing.

R10, Confinement, prison, torture, and execution. For starters.

Let me know when the dictatorial and totalitarian Biden Administration gets around to the above regarding vaccinations for Covid-19, M-kay?

I worked for a VA hospital for a while in the records department, and my mother was an LPN her entire life, and I've known a lot of dumb healthcare workers. They often don't know even basic information. I suggest going out to the Facebooks of these health professionals who die after not being vaccinated and take a gander at the crazy stuff they say. They love to link to a peer-reviewed article on NIH and say something like "this proves that the vaccine has killed 80% of all fetuses in pregnant women who got the shot" and the article is actually something from 1983 and it's about pregnant women taking aspirin.

r20 Also, as a nurse, I would hope you would at least understand why people even in the medical field have concerns. These are not "anti-vaxxers." I'm beginning to think that word is being tossed around so liberally on purpose to brand people as "uneducated bad people" whose, frankly valid, concerns should be silenced and/or dismissed. I have a problem with that.

The bottom line is that there are still way too many holes with the data and overall studies about not just the vaccines but the virus itself. We're still learning more about that everyday. It's great the vaccine is out. However, forcing it this soon? I'm sorry, but, there's something not right with that. And the heavy-handed approach is, ironically, only making people more suspicious. They probably would've had more luck if they just let people take it when they're ready. This is making it worse.

For example, all of the points raised here are valid and shouldn't be ignored or written off as "anti-vaxx." I have never been called that. Maybe this is karma for all of the years of me talking down to actual anti-vaxxers (the ones who erroneously believe they cause autism) I don't know. But it's a very odd position to suddenly be thrust into, especially for someone like me; a nerd who loves science, medicine, and learning more about it:

[quote]The problem with these people is they will forgo a great job, benefits and pension for a jab?

I think I mentioned this elsewhere already but I went to high school with a lady who got the cushiest job available as a Special Education coordinator for a tiny Catholic school that had fewer than 5 special needs students. They allowed her to work as she was getting her degree, she didn't even have a Bachelors yet. But then they required vaccines so she quit this job. She will NEVER get another job like it. Ever.

If nurses quit and no one applies for nursing, the hospitals have the option of recruiting overseas in the Philippines. They have an industry over there for Registered Nurses and these people would love nothing more than to come to the USA and get vaccinated.

R12, What, at this date, are these "legitimate concerns"?

The Bill Gates Tracking Microchip? The Planned-Mass-Death Ingredient?

r32 Efficacy issues and the risk of vaccine associated enhanced disease. This is a possibility and has been demonstrated with previous coronavirus vaccines in the past. There has not been enough time or data collected to see if it's currently happening, going to happen, etc.

We're not approaching this prudently and are going to fast, in my opinion. Also, they lifted restrictions for the vaccinated too soon which likely helped further spread the delta variant. When you have leaders going back and forth with their guidelines, being inconsistent, and using tools that are confirmed inadequate for measuring the virus (PCR test), it makes sense that you'll question them. I mean...them lifting the restrictions when they did was what did it for me. That was unbelievably dumb it almost looks deliberate. I'm not saying it was. It was just really THAT damn stupid, to me.

[quote]In fact all my friends and co-workers in the healthcare have taken the vaccine. It could be it's because we live in a Blue State.

This! Lewis county NY is 70 percent Republiqunt. Nearly all the concern about the vaccine is political. My neighbor told me she's waiting for FDA approval between puffs on her Marlboro light.

Look at all the OTHER health related activities that they don't give a shit about like gun laws, helmet laws and HORSE PASTE. Also, no concerns about using the emergency room when they get sick.

They even lie when their relatives get covid and die. No logical person is afraid of the vaccine that has been give to 2.3 BILLION people.

The same people quitting their jobs over vaccines are probably the ones complaining that people took unemployment benefits "instead of finding a job."

There are literally ZERO deaths from receiving the Covid vaccine. Every single report has been debunked.

R29, do you work in healthcare or know someone who has Covid or someone who has died of Covid? It's been 8 months since the vaccine arrived and you still don't have enough information?

I don't work directly with Covid patients but before the vaccine, there were a couple of ICU nurses who took care of Covid patients and ended up being in ICU and died. My friend's husband died of Covid and he was a healthy 50 year old and died before the vaccine. My sister and brother got Covid last year and they had shortness of breath and extreme fatigue. I have spoken to a lot of patients who had Covid and the thing that stuck out the most was the shortness of breath. Some of the lingering side effects are still with them (Long Covid).

I waited until my friends and family got the vaccine to see whether they got reactions and none did except minor flu symptoms. I would prefer the vaccine over getting Covid. Also, I live in a Blue State with a high vaccination rate so our healthcare system is not impacted. If you live in the South where a lot of anti-vaxxers live (yes, I will use that term), then I feel sorry for you.

Healthcare professionals and staff are not scientists. Some healthcare workers including nurses know enough about vaccines to be dangerous.

Working around vulnerable patients while not being vaccinated should get you fired on the spot. It invalidates any knowledge or care you pretend to have for your profession. Out.

[quote] Some healthcare workers including nurses know enough about vaccines to be dangerous.

And that percentage of nurses are stupid. Especially the healthcare workers who take care of the elderly and infect their patients.

I bet when you travel to Europe or Asia or any foreign country and they tell you that you need certain vaccines-- yellow fever vaccine, DtaP, polio, typhoid vaccine, Hep B vaccines or Chicken Pox, etc.-- you do not question the vaccines or even look it up. I worked in the Shot clinic for a couple of years giving travel shots to adults and not once did I encounter anyone who inquired about the vaccines or even read the information I gave them about the vaccines. It's only in the past year that vaccines have gotten political.

I'm worried about the vaccine but not my 8yo playing with guns.

I work for Starfleet Medical. I will not specify which planet. I'll just say I'm shaking my head at you Earthlings.

Fire them, and let the health system or company and affiliated corporations refuse to hire them for a minimum of 10 years.

[quote]Seven of 30 employees who resigned from the hospital rather than get a COVID vaccine worked in the maternity department, according to Cayer. Twenty-one of them worked in clinical positions, including nurses, therapists and technicians.

Not one physician or scientist. Fuck the witch doctors. Fire them.

[quote] Lewis County Health System CEO Gerald Cayer announced at a news conference Friday that the maternity department would shut down Sept. 25 until enough new vaccinated employees can be hired to safely reopen.

I bet they will recruit foreign nurses. Happens every time.

R44 - that is good and bad. Good in that those are probably so desperate to come to the US and earn USD that they will comply. It is bad because in some foreign nations, fake vaccine cards are being issued.

[quote] Well, except in dictatorial, totalitarian regimes. Into which the US is quickly degenerating.

R3 - I bet you don't feel the same way about the law in Texas regarding abortion.

I wish we had a way to verify vaccine passports like they do in Europe.

R47 - they fake them here as well but, if you get caught, it is a crime punishable by jail time. Right now, if I want to leave this country, I have to present a vaccine pass which will be checked at the border with a match to my worker visa number and the QR code. They are saying, that a negative test, taken 24 hours in advance at a maximum may become law too. Too many have been caught with forged passes.

[R33] Stop spreading HARMFUL misinformation. You are deeply disturbed. Your lies are killing people.

This is Dr Peter Hotez. He is an expert in coronavirus vaccine research. He wanted a vaccine to complete clinical trials a decade ago. There was no funding. Now, there is funding. The last statement in this video is, had we had (vaccine funding years ago, we would already have one to go. We could have avoid the whole pandemic nightmare.

He wants MORE VACCINE RESEARCH now.

So many people have had these vaccines and they are safe.

Vaccine mandates are part of American history. George Washington made his troops get the smallpox vaccine.

These people are so stupid.

[quote]I bet you don't feel the same way about the law in Texas regarding abortion.

You might have a point here if we were being forced to go to sperm banks and get impregnated to exist in society. No one is "forcing" us literally put some random Joe's sperm inside our bodies and carry a child to term. Pregnancy is amazingly avoidable. Somehow, I've only managed to have one. May he rest in peace. :(

R49 - history will look at these people as absolute morons or worse.

Stop feeding the obvious troll in this thread.

R51 - your analogy is faulty (but you knew that) and we all know you aren't a woman. You are just a right wing, anti-vaxxer troll as R53 points out. Now unkindly fuck off.

R13

A lot of people don’t have a choice in the hospital they go to, because of varying reasons like insurance, location, ambulance.

[quote]The last statement in this video is, had we had (vaccine funding years ago, we would already have one to go. We could have avoid the whole pandemic nightmare.

r49 Oh, I was so hoping you would bring that up. :)

They found out that there is a [italic]specific[/italic] region of the s-protein that contains epitopes that do not produce non-neutralizing antibodies that lead to ADE; the receptor binding domain (RBD) located on the S1 subunit of the s-protein. It was the use of the full-length s-protein that was causing that immune enhancement issue.

Pfizer's vaccine, the only one FDA approved currently, uses the full-length S-protein. They had another vaccine candidate that only used the RBD of the S-protein (BNT16261) but they chose BNT162b2 instead. This is a fact. And this is what I, and many others familiar with this research, are concerned about. Side-effects are to be expected. It's the [italic]efficacy[/italic] I am concerned with and ADE.

*BNT162b1

The troll here is subtle, I'll give him (her?) that.

[quote]It's great the vaccine is out. However, forcing it this soon? I'm sorry, but, there's something not right with that .... Efficacy issues and the risk of vaccine associated enhanced disease.

Sounds much more reasonable than "it uploads software to your DNA." But are these concerns with associated enhanced disease being borne out by any evidence after more than a year of trials and general vaccination (in the billions)? If not, when would we expect to see evidence? And what efficacy concerns should we have, given the obvious discrepancy between infections in well-vaccinated areas and low-vaccination areas? A vaccinated nurse is much less likely to pick up covid and pass it to others than an unvaccinated nurse—the vaccine isn't foolproof, but it substantially cuts down on infection.

r54 Negative. Having sex (i.e. an act primarily meant for human reproduction), getting pregnant, and then terminating the pregnancy takes the life of another human being. It can all be very well been avoided by...just not having sex.

This vaccine does not prevent spread to others, for one. So the "taking the life of another human being" claim cannot be applied. Also, you cannot prove that someone directly spread a disease that landed on someone who died from it just by that person not being vaccinated. There are too many variables. Whereas, having an abortion you are directly responsible for killing your unborn child.

And, I am a female. No shade but...I really can't imagine why the average gay man would care about abortion in the first place. It has net zero impact on them.

Eh, the troll isn't that subtle, r58. If you see what they wrote on "Conversion Therapy Fetish??" thread you'll see it's one of the straight lady anti trans trolls.

Our anti trans trolls are often also anti vax trolls. It's peculiar.

R51 Thank you for aborting your child. You are too stupid to be reproducing.

You know what? Imma just start blocking people who toss that "troll" claim around. It's tired and irritating because you're not here to have a conversation. You're here to raise hell. Your hellraisers. I am beyond over it.

[quote]Thank you for aborting your child. You are too stupid to be reproducing.

I miscarried...

Now, enjoy the rest of your day.

People, stop arguing with the troll. My IBD has me stuck in the house and bored. I put some on ignore out of curiosity and these are people who start threads like "can you get an abortion at Wal Mart", claim to be nurses who survived COVID and hospitalization without the vaccine, claim to be women when their posting history clearly shows they are frustrated gay men, and endless threads against the Pfizer vaccine. Just trolls....f&f.

No, R60, that's not a straight woman, that is a right wing nutjob incel male. That is how they speak....frustrated and transparent. So obvious.

R59 - if you are a woman, then I am Marylin Monroe. Bitch, gay men have women in their lives from day one and of you think gay men are so stupid that we don't understand what the Texas abortion law signifies, you are an idiot. Go back to Breitbart.

[quote]But are these concerns with associated enhanced disease being borne out by any evidence after more than a year of trials and general vaccination (in the billions)? If not, when would we expect to see evidence?

One thing about science is that you don't rule out historical patterns with data. If the same steps have been repeated in multiple different ways using different methods, timeframes, etc and the same result always came up, it makes sense not to rule out that result as a possibility and to tread cautiously. The issue is, we don't know. We can only know by getting as many people vaccinated as possible, sending them out to the wild, and observing. That's all is it. Observing and measuring data.

I don't feel comfortable being part of the observable data being measured at this time for this specific illness. I have my own personal medical and health concerns that, for me, I need more data and time. On average, a fast-tracked vaccine, even with all of the best funds and resources thrown at it can take up to 2 years to gather enough data to measure its efficacy, safety, etc. And that's exactly what they're doing. They're continuing clinical trials until July 2023 after which the results of the trials will be made public. I'd rather wait to see that data.

[quote]And what efficacy concerns should we have, given the obvious discrepancy between infections in well-vaccinated areas and low-vaccination areas? A vaccinated nurse is much less likely to pick up covid and pass it to others than an unvaccinated nurse—the vaccine isn't foolproof, but it substantially cuts down on infection.

The efficacy testing wasn't ideal or standard. They unblinded the placebo/control group in Dec 2020 and moved forward without that data. Read that BMJ article I posted a few posts up. I don't mind discussing this with you, but I'm not about to sit up here and be called a troll every five minutes just because I'm saying things people disagree with. That gets old very quickly and as I stated previously, I'm over it. 2 months here and I've already lost my patience with that.

*That's all it is.

Ugh. I'm sleepy. -_-

[quote]gay men have women in their lives

That doesn't necessarily mean it impacts you in a significant way. Also, I'm going by what I've read on here. I haven't been here long, admittedly, but I've been here long enough to read that a lot a gay men claim to not give a damn about abortion.

But yes. I am a female. A Black female. I am against killing unborn babies. And I will not apologize for that. Our community has the highest number of abortions in this country. By all means, tell me more about how our lives actually matter to you. Have a good day, sir.

R66, I think you're being called a troll because you're posting generalizations and other posters are doing you the courtesy of assuming that you know better, rather than being mentally dull. The BMJ "article" you posted was an editorial by an editor who had concerns; I did read it, which is why I asked you for specific evidence, because it doesn't go into any—just offers educated concerns and speculation.

Your first paragraph at R66 is truistic padding. Your second just repeats that you have concerns but doesn't say why—and you avoid the fact that the different vaccines have been given to billions of people by now, so there should be some "patterns," as you put it, already emerging.

[quote]But yes. I am a female. A Black female.

Color me incredulous.

[quote] They love to link to a peer-reviewed article on NIH and say something like "this proves that the vaccine has killed 80% of all fetuses in pregnant women who got the shot"

And it done kilt some who ain’t even take the vaccine.

[quote] Your hellraisers.

Oh, dear.

[quote] read that a lot a gay men

Oh, dear!

I love how R10 tries to argue against the vaccine by saying:

" Vaccines MAY reduce the severity of illness after contraction, but they do nothing to prevent spread. Masks MAY prevent the spread of the virus. ."

For most people, those are arguments FOR.

I usually am not into trolls, but this one is one of the most incompetent. He argues that the mandate is a form of totalitarianism. Sure, Jan. We have been under a totalitarian regime since the first smallpox mandate.

[quote] But yes. I am a female. A Black female.

If you really had any dramatic flair you would've said "a TRANSwoman OF COLOR".

If you would so much as read the first line of the article, R11, you would know that they quit. But obviously you can't be bothered with such technicalities.

[quote]I think you're being called a troll because you're posting generalizations and other posters are doing you the courtesy of assuming that you know better, rather than being mentally dull.

Thank you. That's...very passive aggressive and distracting. Moving on.

[quote]The BMJ "article" you posted was an editorial by an editor who had concerns...it doesn't go into any—just offers educated concerns and speculation.

No. The author actually provided data and evidence (and linked the source) and unpacked said data. This one in particular stands out:

"And on preventing death from covid-19, there are too few data to draw conclusions—a total of three covid-19 related deaths (one on vaccine, two on placebo). There were 29 total deaths during blinded follow-up (15 in the vaccine arm; 14 in placebo).

The crucial question, however, is whether the waning efficacy seen in the primary endpoint data also applies to the vaccine’s efficacy against severe disease. Unfortunately, Pfizer’s new preprint does not report the results in a way that allows for evaluating this question."

I chose that article specifically because it is the best one that outlines literally all of the questions and concerns I have about the vaccine [italic]at this stage[/italic]. I am on the side that thinks more time is needed to gather enough data to accurately measure the vaccine's efficacy and if, indeed, the risk for ADE is almost non-existent (with coronaviruses, similar to dengue virus, this is quite common). We don't know yet how and when ADE may come about (if it hasn't already) because enough time hasn't passed. Again, even on the fast tracked timeline, it's approximately 2 years before any more robust data can be collected. It's essentially a waiting game. But, certain numbers are also concerning. These are numbers for the 50+ demographic from the UK up to 8/12/21:

----

UK POPULATION MID-2020 = 56,550,138 UK POPULATION 50+ MID 2020 = 24,153,564 (43% of overall population) FULLY VACCINATED 50+ = 19,823,127 (82% of overall 50+ UK population)

RECEIVED 1ST DOSE 50+ = 16,765,422 (69% of overall 50+ UK population; 85% of fully vaccinated 50+ population)

UNVACCINATED 50+ = ~7,388,142 (~31% of overall 50+ population)

*

DELTA CASES TOTAL: 386,735

DELTA CASES 50+ = 48,264 (13% OF ALL DELTA CASES AND 0.2% OF UK 50+ POPULATION)

DELTA CASES UNVACCINATED 50+ = 4,891 (10% OF 50+ CASES AND 0.07% OF UNVACCINATED 50+ POPULATION)

DELTA CASES 1ST DOSE 50+ = 6,303 (1.6% OF 50+ CASES AND 0.03% OF 1ST DOSE 50+ POPULATION)

DELTA CASES FULLY VACCINATED 50+ = 32,828 (68% OF 50+ CASES AND 0.17% OF FULLY VACCINATED 50+ POPULATION)

*

DEATHS WITHIN 28 DAYS OF POSITIVE TEST 50+ = 1,076 (2.2% OF ALL 50+ CASES)

DEATHS WITHIN 28 DAYS OF POSITIVE TEST UNVACCINATED 50+ = 318 (0.66% OF 50+ CASES AND 6.5% OF UNVACCINATED 50+ CASES, 30% OF ALL 50+ DEATHS, 0.004% of UNVACCINATED 50+ POPULATION)

DEATHS WITHIN 28 DAYS OF POSITIVE TEST 1ST DOSE 50+ = 93 (0.19% OF 50+ CASES AND 1.5% OF 1ST DOSE 50+ CASES, 8.6% OF ALL 50+ DEATHS, 0.005% OF 1ST 50+ UK POPULATION)

DEATHS WITHIN 28 DAYS OF POSITIVE TEST FULLY VACCINATED 50+ = 652 (1.4% OF 50+ CASES AND 2% OF FULLY VACCINATED 50+ CASES, 60% OF ALL 50+ DEATHS, 0.003% OF FULLY VACCINATED 50+ UK POPULATION)

----

From here it appears that more unvaccinated 50+ become infected (not surprisingly) compared to fully vaccinated 50+. However, they are dying at a lesser rate from the illness than the fully vaccinated group.

[quote]"The crucial question, however, is whether the waning efficacy seen in the primary endpoint data also applies to the vaccine’s efficacy against severe disease. Unfortunately, Pfizer’s new preprint does not report the results in a way that allows for evaluating this question."

To add, I'm anal. I would very much like to be able to evaluate that question.

R67 calling you a troll will get you to leave? Troll, troll, troll, troll, also a white man.

Even a staunchly anti-abortion woman would never make the mistake of claiming all pregnancies are the result of consensual intercourse, and given the history of white men raping black women with impunity, well I’m definitely going to go with white make incel troll or Russian troll farm troll.

I am a lay person, but I’ve also been employed in the field of medical research for three decades. The trials were so fast because we all worked insane hours at the beginning of the pandemic. The protocols weren’t wordsmithed to death; the site agreements were read, negotiated and signed within 24 hours not three months; the IND submissions were immediately reviewed: not 30 days to respond with questions; then another 30 to respond to the responses with six months of go rounds. IRB held special meetings to immediately review the protocols, they didn’t wait until the next month’s meeting. Also all of this was being done in parallel, not sequentially. Also, the companies manufactured enough drug for all phases of the studies immediately, because the US government guaranteed to purchase 100 million doses (hello AstraZeneca doses to give away) so there were no manufacturing delays. Also the trials were written up in a single document including phases 1,2 and 3 with clear objective go/no-go decisions between them so there was no year long delays of going back to the FDA between phases. And finally, people were desperate to be vaccinated so enrollment took weeks, not years. The study parts of the process were all done normally and completely.

So f*** you white male troll claiming to be a black woman. The fact is that there is better data on these vaccines than most vaccines on the market and phase 3 trials were fully completed on the non-Russian, non-Chinese vaccines. And long term post approval safety studies are a standard thing, not a reason for suspicion.

[quote] To add, I'm anal.

To add, you are tiresome and male.

I stand corrected, I thought this anti vax/anti trans troll was a woman, but I'm now convinced they are indeed a man pretending to be a woman.

Stop with the ADE boogeyman.

R76, so how many years do you propose we stay under lockdown until the vaccine has been tested to your satisfaction?

Well, we can quibble about wording, R76, but the BMJ piece you linked to is an editorial, however much it links to scholarship and cites data. Also, it's from four months ago. And there's nothing passive-aggressive or "distracting" about what I said: you keep making generalizations and treating the situation as if we were still only in trials, when billions of vaccines have been administered for the better part of a year. When you do cite data (as in R76), it doesn't add anything to your claims. These are things trolls and stupid people do. Take your pick.

Thank you, ElderLez at R78, as always.

R33, As I read you, you are arguing that the info on the efficacy of Covid-19 vaccines is inadequate, AND that those vaccinated had restrictions lifted too early.

IOW, you believe that everyone should still be in September 2020 mode.

Perhaps you are correct, and my sarcasm was completely unwarranted.

Unfortunately, the restrictions were killing our economy, also.

But how do you account for its being the UNvaccinated now the ones clogging up our hospitals and dying?

Or---I'm being serious---do you think the vaccinated are also dying of Covid-19 and nobody is keeping the data? That, in fact, it is only the patients' word?

Delta Airlines has great success with charging workers $200 more monthly . for health premiums if unvaxxed. This should be a nationwide policy. Also life insurance should charge premiums as well. This should have been done months ago. And these additional costs should be permanent even when Covid dies down.

[quote]No one is "forcing" us literally put some random Joe's sperm inside our bodies and carry a child to term.

Apparently you missed the part about no abortion exception for rape victims in Texas.

[quote] A hospital in northern New York will stop delivering babies later this month

As a gay man, I don’t know a lot about these things, but I think the baby is going to come out anyway.

It’s okay, r86. Abbott’s going to wave his magic wand and make rape disappear in Texas.

r10 They do reduce transmission but not as much as hoped. They reduce your chances of catching it in the first place if you are near infected people or an environment containing the virus eg enclosed room AND if you do catch it it reduces your ability to transmit it to another by about 40%. Not as much as hoped but a very decent amount and one that would give a massive cumulative benefit to society the more that are vaccinated.

[quote] As a gay man, I don’t know a lot about these things, but I think the baby is going to come out anyway.

As a gay man, you are a sad excuse for a human. Why do you think the vast majority of women have their babies in hospitals?

It's interesting how common it is for Nazi trolls on the DL to, at the same time, moan that no one wants to have a "conversation" and also moan that they're "super over!" this or that topic and won't discuss it any longer.

You're a dumb Nazi cunt, miss. And you miscarried a baby like the couple in Virginia Woolf did.

Meh R90, the Hospital in the area where I grew up lost its certifications for births due to incompetence in the 1980s. If the baby couldn’t wait another 30 minutes, the woman would give birth in the ambulance. I expect that’s what’ll happen in this case.

[quote]We don't know yet how and when ADE may come about (if it hasn't already) because enough time hasn't passed. Again, even on the fast tracked timeline, it's approximately 2 years before any more robust data can be collected. It's essentially a waiting game.

First, it is not just a waiting game. If people suddenly started dropping like flies from ADE, they're not going to just watch and let it keep happening all over the world. Secondly, the vaccines were ready, in their current form, in late January/early February of 2020. Not 2021, 2020. They weren't distributed until almost a year later because they were doing all the fucking studies you're pretending they just skipped over. So, these vaccines have been tested in people for almost two years. Do you see tons of people dropping dead of ADE? Nope. Dropping dead of anything having to do with these vaccines? Nope.

And, go get 'em, ElderLez. These fuckers are tiring.

R90 must be a blast at parties.

Bless your heart.

R92, I don’t think that will work with the more complicated pregnancies. They will have to get care at another hospital.

I assume "Mao" is the sock puppet of an infamous DL troll

Well, currently, hospitals in Idaho are having to evac their Covid patients to Connecticut because that's the closest ventilator.

These are the options, you Nazi fuck.

[quote]You cannot force people to do what they don't want to. Well, except in dictatorial, totalitarian regimes. Into which the US is quickly degenerating.

Healthcare workers who quit rather than get the vaccine are a new threat to the population and public health.

Their licenses need to be revoked, and they need to be charged with willful negligence if anything happens to those mothers.

R95 thirty minutes was the extra driving time to one of the other hospitals so yes of course they were getting care at another hospital.

Just an FYI on the importance of vaccination in pregnant women and all the people around them.

I don’t necessarily think the nurses are a danger to babies because they masked up but I do find their behavior reprehensible because they are harming others by not getting vaccinated which could potentially land them in the hospital taking up a precious resource and denying others treatment.

People are dying from treatable conditions like heart attacks and strokes because there are no hospital beds to treat them thanks to selfish antivaxxers.

I feel like anyone in the medical care profession should display good sound judgment and this clearly is not it. The employer should fire them.

Fire them for cause. No unemployment payments, assholes. Just eat covid. See how that goes for you and your kids.

There are other vaccinations these workers also need to have. These newborns are really at risk. How dare they? Why were hospitals hiring non-vaccinated weirdos to work with patients anyways?

I just love the way these right wing trolls talk about babies (BABIES, ffs) and women's rights (read: civil rights) because "oh, it doesn't matter to those fags". They think that we are gonna fall for their pathetic chicanery just because we don't fuck or impregnate women and, of course, we MUST have zero feelings for babies. The homophobia is off the charts!

[quote] anyways

SMFH.

Conservatives think we’re like them, in that we don’t care about an issue until it directly impacts us. Hence they assume we wouldn’t care about abortion unless we are getting pregnant or impregnating women ourselves.

Thank you, R105. Projection is a key element of conservative ideology.

So the 'black woman' troll here is against abortion because 'unborn babies are human beings and you don't kill a human being' -- and also wants non-vaxxed healthcare workers around said babies in pandemic times.

Funny how that 'pro-life' logic works.

The Repug talking points playbook has been stripped bare by the reality of this pandemic.

Yet, they’re still shouting their bullshit into the wind.

Repugs are only pro choice because it allows them to control women’s bodies, once that baby is out they don’t give a fuck if it gets clothed, housed, fed or sick from Covid.

R105 - because the very core of conservative ideology is a lack of civic spirit. That is what drives them and they can't imagine that someone would even begin to care about something that isn't "me, me, me". That's why they oppose EVERYTHING from environmental protection to public health to gay rights to women's rights. Of course, their leaders enable them because they also care only about control. Being a conservative is, by it's very essence, the sign of a selfish and lazy mind.

[quote] by it's very essence,

Oh, dear.

Dear Grammar Nazi, please explain your Oh, dear @ r111

Oh, never mind, it was the sin of the apostrophe.

It’s always the fucking nurses.

Just what every newborn needs—and unvaccinated nurse holding the baby just as it’s born

[Quote] So the 'black woman' troll here is against abortion because 'unborn babies are human beings and you don't kill a human being' -- and also wants non-vaxxed healthcare workers around said babies in pandemic times.

They’re pro-birth, not pro-lifes

R113 - now we both know I have this old Android set to 3 languages and I know that the proper way is "its". I think you know I know.

[quote]The BMJ "article" you posted was an editorial by an editor who had concerns

If you’re talking about concerns of the Susan Collins variety, then yes.

Peter Doshi is an anthropologist with a bee in his bonnet about comparative effectiveness research not falling in line with his whims and notions; the harmlessness of influenza; and vaccines.

He’s been banging that drum since grad school, when he was railing against flu vaccines on the premise that influenza is way overblown and people who are counted as flu deaths actually died [italic]with[/italic] the flu, not [italic]of[/italic]the flu*, so why take chances with oh-so-terrifying vaccines. Sound familiar?

[quote]At this point, let me just recap briefly my my opinion of Peter Doshi based on his history. I first encountered him in 2009, when I noted that, as the H1N1 pandemic of 2009-2010 was bearing down on us, he had been scheduled to speak at an antivaccine conference hosted by the antivaccine group National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC). He knew NVIC was antivaccine too, as he had been contacted about the nature of the conference and replied with a lame, “my speaking there does not imply endorsement” gambit. Since then, he’s been nothing if not consistent. While all the while claiming he’s “not antivaccine, he’s parroted more than a few antivaccine talking points himself while trying to portray himself as an authority on influenza and the flu vaccine. Through it all, he’s played the “victim” card that people who are borderline antivaccine or antivaccine love to play, claiming that they are “just asking questions” and that anyone who “questions” vaccines is labeled, in a knee-jerk fashion, “antivaccine.” In fact, Doshi’s borderline antivaccine stylings go back further than 2009, when a senior pseudonymous epidemiologist whose blog I used to read religiously back then chastised him for an “unhelpful” commentary in which he had claimed without basis that estimates for yearly influenza deaths were “grossly inflated.” The year was 2006.

*The idea being that post-influenza pneumonia, for example, should count solely as a pneumonia death while totally ignoring the influenza that caused it in the first place.

If there's any doubt, here's his latest:

The Black woman troll is probably a Russian working out of a troll farm. Russia has been at the forefront of vaccination disinformation for about a decade. They are the ones who started all this anti-vax bullshit on Facebook and then geniuses like Jenny McCarthy bought into it and spread it all over television. I am not the guy who screams Boris all the time, either. For some reason Russia jumped on this a long time ago as a way to kill Americans and it's working.

They should have taken a similar stand against mutilating baby boys years ago.

Thank you, R 118/119; I didn't know that.

[quote]calling you a troll will get you to leave? Troll, troll, troll, troll, also a white man.

Even a staunchly anti-abortion woman would never make the mistake of claiming all pregnancies are the result of consensual intercourse, and given the history of white men raping black women with impunity, well I’m definitely going to go with white make incel troll or Russian troll farm troll.

r78 Ok...

First of all, ma'am, who are you talking to? Are you really trying to denounce what I am based upon whatever the hell your own personal biases are with regards to Black women and how we think? Are you serious? So, I'm not a Black female because whatever (no doubt, stereotyped) silly-ass characteristics, you've mentally assigned to us as a whole are clearly not applicable? No really, [italic]who the fuck are you talking to?[/italic] You must be white. Since we're putting people in boxes and shit today. Because, let's be real, only you people have the gall, arrogance, and unwarranted sense of self-entitlement to say this dumb shit on the internet and genuinely not see the issue with boxing people, you perceive to be "beneath you," into categories based upon your own ignorance. If [italic]you[/italic] say it, well golly, it must be true. Funny how most of you are quiet as a church mouse to our faces, though. You magically and conveniently become deaf mutes in person. Gee, I wonder why. You've been doing the shit since the beginning of time to literally every culture of color on this planet and it's time out for that bullshit. The fuck are you even talking about?

[quote]And long term post approval safety studies are a standard thing, not a reason for suspicion.

They just started the first ever human trials for a coronavirus vaccine last year and eliminated/compromised the control group after 6 months. That most certainly is a reason for suspicion/caution and to pressure, belittle, and outright bully people who are hesitant to inject themselves with a brand new drug is about as insane as the uncalled for rant you just went on about my identity. If you don't want to have a conversation and make an attempt at understanding other people's perspectives on this then get the hell on somewhere. Because I'm not about to waste my time on people who have a hardon for being evil and nasty on the damn internet. I'm too old for that mess.

Oh and about that abortion issue, Black babies have some of the highest abortion numbers compared to other races in this country. And no I don't think a rape is a valid reason to kill the child. How about we kill the rapist? The child did nothing in that horrific situation and is innocent. Abortion or not, either way, the victim is traumatized twice if a pregnancy results. Abortion harms women mentally and emotionally. Especially Black women since we are over-represented in such situations. Oh but you care about Black women. FOH with that.

Oh, are you still here?

r118 Peter Doshi merely reiterated my own concerns. And, per those two articles, the most he is guilty of is speculation and "asking/raising too many challenging questions."

And if there is anything that going to a Baptist school growing up told me is to be very wary of anyone so vehemently willing to demonize and silence anyone who asks questions, expresses doubts, or challenges their position.

All in all, I have severe trust issues when it comes to the government and corporations. They have proven, time and again, that as whole they do not care about us and are willing to do whatever it takes to fulfill their own agenda/meet their bottom line. I need to see the data for myself. I need time to observe the results in the real-world. History has taught us that governments, corporations, and even the scientific community has been guilty of committing numerous heinous and cold crimes against humanity. In my opinion, they have not done enough to earn my trust. And that especially applies to the Black community in a significant way.

We are inundated with daily examples of why we should not to trust any of these bodies, but just this one time, they have our best interest at heart? Really?

We all have our "sources" that we have bias to because they confirm our own positions. But all of these people are brilliant in their own respective fields. How do you choose who to trust? Serious question.

Hope they do this for HIV+ employees too, R85. Dirty, irresponsible, bug chasing, slut stewards are among the ones braying for vaccine mandates and passports the loudest on my social media at least. Since we morally judge people for the diseases they catch now, this seems fair.

"It's asinine to mandate this when people...healthcare professionals even, have legitimate concerns about the vaccine and want to wait."

The only "healthcare professionals" who have a problem with this are Trumpster nuts. There is no reason why unvaccinated people need to be working at a hospital

"Hope they do this for HIV+ employees too, [R85]. Dirty, irresponsible, bug chasing, slut stewards are among the ones braying for vaccine mandates and passports the loudest on my social media at least."

You can only get HIV through sex, it's not like Covid. You are dumb, and you sound homophobic as well

[quote]And, per those two articles, the most he is guilty of is speculation and "asking/raising too many challenging questions."

You're showing your trollishness by your disingenuousness and cynical willingness to muddy the epistemological waters. You'd better hope no one reads those articles, which repeatedly demolish his premises and claims (and yours).

[quote]But all of these people are brilliant in their own respective fields. How do you choose who to trust? Serious question.

Peter Doshi's fields are apparently history and anthropology, which he received a PhD in from MIT, so there you go.

It's safe to conclude that anyone who catches HIV in this day and age is a bug chaser. With PREP, PEP, condoms, and even vaccines on the horizon there is really no excuse for not protecting yourself and public health. It's exactly the same as with people who choose not to get the COVID vaccine. We know everyone who chooses not to get vaccinated is a right-wing anti-vaxxer, just like we know everyone who chooses not to protect themselves from HIV is slutty bug chaser. It's really not difficult. You just have to choose to assume.

[quote]First, it is not just a waiting game. If people suddenly started dropping like flies from ADE, they're not going to just watch and let it keep happening all over the world.

That's...not how ADE works, specifically VAED. The vaccine isn't injecting the antibodies directly. It's stimulating the body's immune system to produce its own antibodies specific to the antigen introduced. If non-neutralizing antibodies that cause the immune enhancement happen to occur, it's not known until the person is infected with the virus and becomes severely ill (or in the case of those who have already had it; gets reinfected). So yes, it is a waiting game. And that game is Russian Roulette.

[quote]Secondly, the vaccines were ready, in their current form, in late January/early February of 2020. Not 2021, 2020. They weren't distributed until almost a year later because they were doing all the fucking studies you're pretending they just skipped over.[/quote]

I never said any studies were skipped over. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said they were rushed and had concerning limitations.

[quote]So, these vaccines have been tested in people for almost two years.[/quote]

No. Human trials didn't officially begin until late spring/early summer 2020. Last year. And the control group of the human trials was compromised in December of 2020 (meaning the placebo group was unblinded and given the vaccine).

[quote]Do you see tons of people dropping dead of ADE?[/quote]

Again. That is not how that works. ADE itself isn't a pathogen. It's a phenomenon that happens when someone is reinfected or infected with a disease for which they've already produced antibodies. In this case, that disease is COVID. And we are definitely still seeing COVID deaths. And the number of fully vaccinated severe illness and deaths has muddied data as well, considering that the CDC stopped tracking fully vaccinated breatkthroughs in May. We don't know the actual number. And without that number, the efficacy question is unclear.

[quote}You can only get HIV through sex

No...?

If you google ‘Vaccine Shedding’ all you see is “debunked” bull crap. But if you set the time of result prior to 2017 you will see lots scientific studies that say ‘Vaccine Shedding’ is real. Even Pfizer admits it. I would't want my newborn exposed to this.

R18 My husband is an MD/MPH epidemiologist. He’s on the phone but what question do you have?

R132, I never said ADE was a pathogen. Everything you write is just bullshit. If people were dying of "covid vaccine induced ADE" (there, does that make you happy since you couldn't figure out what I was talking about before), we would know it. All you have to do is look at the number of hospitalized and dead who are unvaccinated vs vaccinated as percentages, not numbers alone. But, of course, you know this already. You are a fucking con artist.

Oh, and here we go with the bitchute links again at R134. Ridiculous.

r134 That video didn't show anything that you said it did. It didn't even show what its title said it was going to show. What specific document is he talking about?

I'm vaxcinated because the benefit vs. risk calculation made it the best choice for me. But I understand why some health care workers are cautious. The history of medicine is replete with treatments and drugs that looked good at first and were found to cause serious problems years down the road.

I used to take Seldane, an allergy pill that was pulled from the US market after they discovered it could cause fatal cardiac arrhythmias when taken with some other relatively common drugs. It was on the market for more than 8 years before they figured it out. I'm cautious about taking any drug that is new.

So, while there are good arguments for getting vaccinated against Covid, continually parroting that it's completely safe is bullshit. It will be years before we can say with certainty that any of the vaccines are safe in the long-term.

I'm linking below to a story about the problems with a dengue vaccine. The problems weren't acknowledged until a year and a half after a mass vaccination effort in the Philippines.

No choice is completely safe. Being unvaccinated for covid has risks as well.

[quote]All you have to do is look at the number of hospitalized and dead who are unvaccinated vs vaccinated as percentages, not numbers alone.

I have been...

The CDC stopped tracking "non-severe" cases amongst those vaccinated. They have not stopped tracking so-called "non-severe" cases amongst those unvaccinated. And you don't think that taints the data in any way, shape, or form?

r137 you can find the link to the actual Pfizer document in this article...

r138 Thank you. This is all I'm trying to get people to understand. The atmosphere is turning hostile and they are turning us against each other. They literally want us to think unvaccinated people are evil, murderers akin to terrorists, even if they're just hesitant. Any time leaders incite their people to fight amongst themselves with their words, I side-eye that shit. And it's disappointing when you see so many people falling in lock step.

There have been many, many, severe consequences from mistakes made in science and medicine. This is a fact. People are hesitant because these industries have given us a reason to be in the first place. Thalidomide anyone?

And for the record, I haven't seriously left my house in 19 months or interacted with anyone in person due to fear of catching COVID. So, if there's a risk that a vaccine (that has proven to not stop infection) may cause more severe illness, of COURSE I'm paranoid. Come on now!

Dr. Anne McCloskey of the NHS gives an impassioned plea after working all night in the hospital, where almost everyone she treated was double vaccinated for COVID. Young people in their 20s are developing disabilities she has never seen before.

r142, give away your cats.

R139, no one was talking about "non-severe" cases. Strange that you'd pull that out of your ass instead of addressing the percentages of hospitalizations and deaths that we are actually talking about. Well, not strange so much as bullshit manipulation of a con artist.

I'd love to hear all of you explain what you think is going to happen to everyone who has been vaccinated years down the road and what physiological mechanism is going to cause whatever crap you make up. I know, infertility and suddenly becoming magnetized, right? And, the mechanism will be the remote activation of the secret chips, right? Really, I'd love to hear all your ideas about what is going to happen to billions of us, not now, not next year, but suddenly in 2024 and beyond. This should be entertaining.

Ok, you know what...

This is too much, lol.

"Here's a doctor/scientist who says it's completely safe."

"Here's a doctor/scientist who says it's killing people."

"Here's an article that reminds you of the fact that coronavirus infections and vaccines can make a reinfection/infection worse."

"Here's an article that states it hasn't been seen yet in COVID, but it's unclear if will or won't happen."

"It's safe." - Expert 1

"It's not safe." - Expert 2

"It's safe." - Expert 1

"It's not safe." - Expert 2

"Safe!" - Expert 1

"Not safe! - Expert 2

"Safe!" - Expert 1

"Not safe! - Expert 2

"Murderer!" - Expert 1

"Murderer!" - Expert 2

"Murderer!" - Expert 1

"Murderer!" - Expert 2

--------

I need chamomile tea and my weighted blanket. Good night all. :(

[quote] I know, infertility and suddenly becoming magnetized, right?

No. Just...no.

Ah, such an informed answer from the con artist there, R147. But, you're tired now with your conning for the evening.

For anyone who thinks R146 has any point at all...he doesn't. You have to be able to understand the difference between real facts and bullshit, real experts and con artists, real doctors citing real studies and tinhat "doctors" spewing garbage.

r148 I'm going to say one final thing about your "vaccine shedding" theory, and then go.

That's "exposure to the study intervention" line in those clinical trial documents is just biomedical research "shop talk." It's just a generic, broad way of defining exposure to the vaccine for pregnant women since they weren't cleared as trial participants. For example, whole virus vector vaccines can possibly be "inhaled" (which doesn't apply to the Pfizer vaccine; it's mRNA), and skin contact can come from a broken vial of the vaccine itself. Not from the vaccinated person.

It's just meant to be as broad as possible to define what would qualify as a pregnant woman exposure. Please stop spreading that around. :-|

Ok. Now, goodnight.

9 o'clock. Shift's over!

R121. Agreed! They should stop mutilating baby boys. It's barbaric.

R149, you're talking to different people. I'm not the "vaccine shedding" person. I'm the one calling you a con artist.

I meant to bring this up previously to r78. Can you produce documents that support your claims about your research and each step that you were personally involved in, please? Is your data published and if so where? I would love to be able to actually see some of the material you had a hand in for myself.

Is the following not concerning and also not understandable as to why so many people have doubts and/or are apprehensive:

[quote]Dr. Emily Erbelding, an infectious disease expert at NIAID -- which is part of the National Institutes of Health -- said the typical vaccine takes between eight and 10 years to develop. While she is careful not to contradict her boss's timeline -- although she did say "18 months would be about as fast as I think we can go" -- she acknowledged that the accelerated pace will involve "not looking at all the data." [quote]"Because we are in a race here to beat back this epidemic and a vaccine is very important, people might be willing to take a chance on just going quickly into phase two," Erbelding told CNN. "So the 18 months would rely upon speeding things up."

[quote]Volunteers in each phase need to be monitored for safety, Erbelding said. "Usually, you want to follow their immune response for at least a year," she said. [quote]But that is not what will be happening in the current study in Seattle and Atlanta, where researchers will test animals and humans in parallel, as opposed to sequentially, according to Stat, a health news website produced by Boston Globe Media. [quote]CNN reached out to Kaiser about the potential tradeoffs associated with a quickened timeline, but researchers at the organization were unavailable to comment. [quote]Walt Orenstein, a professor of medicine at Emory and the former director of the US National Immunization Program, said the tradeoff is a difficult balancing act. [quote]"If you want every 't' crossed and 'i' dotted, how many more people will die or suffer from Covid-19?" he said. "It's not an easy decision, it is a breakneck speed for moving things."

That last line sounds like the "risk thousands of lives to save millions" thought experiment. And it made me very uncomfortable. Seeds of doubt and panic were planted by the MSM last year. And now that same MSM is demonizing those who are panicking and doubtful. It's borderline criminal. Thank you for your time.

r152 I was getting auras. Meant to put 143. :-/

Get your popcorn everybody, ElderLez is going to wipe the floor with Mao.

R154, Every medication released has its benefits and side effects. For example, I worked with diabetic patients and Metformin worked wonders for a lot of diabetics when it first came on market. It was the best and most effective treatment for controlling blood sugars and considered the safest. Then 10 years later, it was pulled off the market due to certain side effects. Then released back into the market again when they did another study that found it safe. Last year it was pulled off the market but only because of a certain lot manufactured in China so it's still prescribed.. Same with another medication called Actos. Actos was pulled off the market then put back on and considered safe 10 years later. This happens with a lot of medications. With vaccines, not so much.

You complain that you don't like how the CDC changes its mind. Well, Covid-19 is a novel virus and the data changes all the time, made worse because the virus mutates in the unvaccinated. If you work in healthcare this happens a lot in regards to other medications and medical procedures and I am glad it does because it means science is on top of things.

As any doctors would say when prescribing a medication, you have to weigh the risks vs the side effects. And if the risks of not taking the medication is worse than the side effects, then that's an easy question to answer. COVID IS BAD and WE ARE IN A PANDEMIC so it's better to take the vaccine.

There are some people that get Covid and have mild symptoms or asymptomatic but I do not want to be that 3% that gets ill and needs to be intubated. I also took the vaccine because I care about the community. My God, all you have to do is look at Idaho, Florida, Georgia, Texas-- States where the vaccination rate is low. THERE ARE NO ICU BEDS. PEOPLE WITH HEART ATTACKS, STROKES AND MAJOR INJURIES are dying because there are no ICU beds. If you have cancer, it will have to be postponed because of the fucking unvaccinated Covid patients. Fortunately, I live in a state with high vaccination rates.

So if you don't want to take the vaccine, then fine, we can't force you. Just stay home and away from us. If you do need to go out, wear a mask, preferably an N95 or KN95 mask. If you work and the vaccine is mandated and you still don't want to take it, then you need to be tested weekly and wear a mask at all times. I'm more upset with people who act like Covid doesn't exist and do not wear masks, those people are very selfish. I think in your case you're scared. You may need to talk to a therapist.

The article in OP's post gas this quote from a hospital official:

“Essential health services are not at risk because of the mandate,” Cayer said."

Since when is devering babies a non-essential service? 31% of US births are by cesarean. Midwives don't do them.

R134, please explain how this is possible? Shedding only happens with live-attenuated vaccines (and not even often then).

How is it possible with an mRNA vaccine?

I feel that next you will be telling me that people can get stab wounds in a pillow fight.

R129 - why are you surprised at the homophobia of these trolls? They are essentially coming on here with the argument that we "fags" shouldn't even have a say in such terrible human rights abuses like the Texas law because, after all, we don't fuck or impregnates women. So, you know, we should just sit back and watch the REAL freedom they harp so much about go to hell. Assholes.

Mao if you really have been home for the past 19 months without contact with people I support that decision and hope that you continue.

I do not support the view that any man accused of rape should be killed.

Funny that you should say you were educated in a Baptist school. Historically the Baptist church was founded on the freedom of conscience of all Christian believers to the point where they rejected the authority of the Apostles Creed. And yet if you go on most Baptist church websites they’ll have a statement of beliefs/faith that include all manner of binding statements on secondary matters. The point is people always wind up accepting some sort of authority even the ones who speak the loudest about not doing so. And fortune tellers, con artists, cult leaders and psychological operatives throughout time have used that psychological weakness to their advantage. So when you say that you don’t trust governments, authorities or scientists and encourage others to do the same it doesn’t surprise me. It’s the same basic con as the fortune teller who starts by saying that the people closest to you are plotting against you. Are there terrible examples among all groups,? yes Does that you should trust the unqualified over the qualified? no.

R156 has responded beautifully on the subject of side effects and risk benefit ratio.

[quote]You cannot force people to do what they don't want to.

idiots like these make up or borrow tripe like this'd it sounds like, "truth" whereas it is nothing at all like the true. you HAVE to pay bills, you HAVE to go to your job, kids HAVE to be vaccinated in order to go to school. it's idiots like these that make the world a dirtier and more dangerous place

How hard can it be to deliver a baby? Just watch some YouTube videos.

R161 I adore your sense of whimsy regarding punctuation, grammar and syntax.

R16 I believe you because I can confirm this first-hand. By far not all anti-vaxxers are un-educated. There is a highly educated core demographic, many with a university degree, some even a STEM degree who are staunch anti-vaxxers and love homoeopathic sugar pills. It's also prevalent in the social sector where my partner works.

Color me shocked that I already have the idiot trolls ignored.

If people are coming into hospitals unvaccinated with Covid, turn them away. Do not give them beds. Too bad, so sorry.

Maybe they should have one bed for Covid patients and then let the families bid for them. They can use all their GoFundMe money. I mean, these are the same people who decry "socialism" and love naked piggish capitalism. Why should any of them get one of our socialist hospital beds when they believe the market will fix everything? They can ask the unvaxxed before the ambulance leaves how much their bid for an ICU bed is and then turn them away, laughing, when they can't pay anything. Hypocritical fuckers.

We've been operating on two FALSE ideas. One is that once you get Covid, you have antibodies in your system that make you immune to reinfection. Two, that once a certain percentage of the population becomes immune to Covid either by having survived it or being vaccinated against it, people who've never had Covid or been vaccinated will be protected by "herd immunity."

This is a rapidly mutating virus and we are in a worldwide pandemic. Only a small percentage of the world's population has been vaccinated, and if you think we have vaccine resistance here in the U.S., just try selling in places like sub Saharan Africa, where the people have been fucked over so many time by foreign doctors there's no way they'll listen to them again. People keep comparing our situation to the Spanish flu, but this is much worse because of affordable commercial airline travel. If Covid had had to wait for trains and boatloads of infected people to go from region to region and continent to continent as the Spanish flu virus did, we might well expect it to go away after a couple of years, but the latest mutant is always just a flight away from us, no matter where it develops.

But we're not helpless in this situation. We can vote for politicians who support legitimate science and medical practices. We can take care of ourselves by keeping our vaccinations up to date, using masks and not putting ourselves into avoidable situations where we can be easily infected.

[quote] Color me shocked that I already have the idiot trolls ignored.

Okay, done. You’re colored.

Uh-oh. Wait, I mean—

mao comes across as having logical inconsistencies whilst spouting BMJ (and other article) intricacies.

Her fallacies are easily exposed by Elderlez and others.

As noted above, her positions appear to be rooted in fear, and perhaps, rigid religiosity.

As a physician, find her arguments inaccurate....and regressive.

Why they didn't stop international travel in January 2020, I'll never understand. We would have been better off letting everyone who wanted to travel take cruises packed on slow moving boats than taking short plane trips from one country to the next. Them not stopping it now is murderous in its intent.

They can replace all those nurses in a day with traveling nurses. Traveling nurses are nurses that travel across the country working in high Covid areas for a lot of money. As in, much more than the regular in-staff nurses. The hospital will just charge the patients more.

They ought to take their licenses. Sorry, you knew your entire career was going to be taking care of very sick, vulnerable people when you went to nursing school, why is it a surprise you have to get vaccinated now? They had to get other vaccinations before this.

It’s just Trump lovers who think they’re going to kill only Democrats for some reason. They hate their patients and want to kill them. So go do something else.

[quote]And no I don't think a rape is a valid reason to kill the child. How about we kill the rapist? The child did nothing in that horrific situation and is innocent.

A fetus isn't a child - yet. it's not an independent organism.

So suddenly it's ok to kill another human?

The mother was also innocent when she was raped but the 'pro-birth' lobby will foist anything on the poor women (incl. mental health issues) in order to get their birth fetish. If you want a class of handmaidens, then pay them for carrying to term and for all rape-to-birth related healthcare costs down the line, and either adopt the newborns or take on their expenses until they're legal adults.

[quote] I'm vaxcinated because the benefit vs. risk calculation made it the best choice for me. But I understand why some health care workers are cautious. The history of medicine is replete with treatments and drugs that looked good at first and were found to cause serious problems years down the road.

The only other option is getting covid and those side effects are way worse, with the potential of death. Millions of people have gotten this vaccine without a problem. Sure, a decade from now, our heads may suddenly pop off but are these medical personnel really going to wait 10 years for "ever possible side effect" to be studied? Plus, it's not all medical personnel, it's mainly nurse, many of whom are dumber than a box of rocks.

[quote]Mao if you really have been home for the past 19 months without contact with people I support that decision and hope that you continue.[/quote]

I've been working from home since 2018 and a germaphobe for most of my life. I've literally changed nothing with my lifestyle. So, there's that.

[quote]I do not support the view that any man accused of rape should be killed.[/quote]

I don't either. Being convicted in a court of law, however, is a different story.

[quote]people always wind up accepting some sort of authority even the ones who speak the loudest about not doing so. And fortune tellers, con artists, cult leaders and psychological operatives throughout time have used that psychological weakness to their advantage. So when you say that you don’t trust governments, authorities or scientists and encourage others to do the same it doesn’t surprise me.[/quote]

I'm not encouraging others not to trust governments or scientists (appointed by said governments), I don't particularly care what people do or believe. What I do care about is not being perceived as literally Satan for not being comfortable with injecting myself with a new medication until I receive clear and concise answers to the many questions that I have and a reasonable amount of time has passed since its release (~2-5 years). The tactics used to contest people in the hesitant camp have been unnecessarily hostile and, eerily aligned with the criteria for narcissistic abuse combined with traits of religious extremism.

There's been gaslighting, moral superiority, arguing from authority, absolutism, a glorification of social ostracism, and a hint machiavellianism. None of this is healthy. And yes, I'm aware that both sides of this argument have been doing this. I don't particularly care for that either. I just don't know how we, as a society, have gotten to a point where we don't even try to understand other perspectives and instead skip directly to the crucifixion of so-called "defectors." It reminds me of that Twilight Zone episode "The Monster's Are Due On Maple Street," and like that episode, at least from my view, it's those in positions of power and authority that have facilitated and nurtured the chaos.

I'm of the school of thought that humans are selfish and evil by nature, willing to do anything necessary to further their own interests. And those who have reservations (read: denial) about acknowledging this about themselves choose, instead, to frame their positions as altruistic and virtuous as a coping mechanism which inevitably spawns an endless feedback loop of sanctimonious judgment, further molded by echo chambers, that eventually morph into extremism and tyranny (see: The Catholic Church throughout history).

I don't trust [italic]anyone[/italic]. This extends to my peers and colleagues, as well. I don't care who it is. People start "in the red" with me and have to prove they're trustworthy before I just take them at their word, and even then, I'm still going to investigate. All in all, I've seen absolutely zero reasons to trust any of our leaders and selected medical authorities over the years and their actions over the past 18 months has only vindicated my position.

[R156] has responded beautifully on the subject of side effects and risk benefit ratio.

I'm more worried about efficacy over an extended period of time than side-effects, honestly.

[quote] I think in your case you're scared.

Technically, aren't most people right now? That seems to be the driving force behind so many..."passionate" opinions.

[quote]You may need to talk to a therapist.

Way ahead of you. 😐

Law and gospel. But people are inherently rebellious and of mixed natures, totally incapable of earning our salvation. To claim that they/we are pure evil like the Baptists do is as Unbiblical as the Catholic practice of praying to saints. We are made in G-d’s image, literally “inspired” by the Lord. It is amazing to me that people twist that word inspired to mean inerrant in all ways when applied to Scripture and then turn around and call the other thing called inspired in the Bible, their felllow humans, whom we are commanded to love as ourselves, completely evil.

If you have the means to lock someone up for life, execution is murder.

Mao when I started in AIDS, there was a big TB outbreak. And people went to jail for failing to take their extraordinarily toxic TB meds that you have to take for a long time because well TB is transmissible by air. Losing a job as a nurse is nothing compared to going to jail. And these shots are nothing, by way of side effects compared to TB meds.

This 73-year old Alabama man died of a heart attack after being turned away from 43 ICUs. He was finally airlifted to a hospital in Mississippi, 200 miles away where he died. He was a beloved figure in his hometown and did a lot for his community, including getting vaccinated. Family left a message on his obituary for the unvaccinated.

[quote] "In honor of Ray, please get vaccinated if you have not, in an effort to free up resources for non COVID related emergencies ... ," the obituary reads. "He would not want any other family to go through what his did."

I know someone who won't get vaxxed who claims her sister is a nurse and the sister told her that the vaccines are a way of microchipping people so nurses are not always huge brain trusts and they can fall prey to Qshit too.

How did we get on the subject of abortion? Granted I've got a particular idiot troll on ignore but how did this subject get hijacked?

[quote]Abortion harms women mentally and emotionally.

No it doesn't. Depends on the woman and I can guarantee that most of them are happy to have made the best decision for themselves. Very few regret that decision and rape is far more mentally and emotionally damaging to their psyche than abortion.

I'm sorry but this statement makes me think you really aren't a woman.

My niece who refuses to get vaccinated is now studying to be a nurse. 🤦‍♂️

And, R181, the most hurtful and damaging thing in the entire scenario would be forcing that raped woman to then carry her rapist's leavings inside her for nine months.

Yeah, R193. I went to HS with a girl who was a product of rape. Her mother had been young and was pressured by family to keep it. Needless to say the mother was very cold towards her. She showered the younger half-sibling, the product of marriage, with love but pretty much ignored Desiree. It didn't help that Desiree was darker skinned and fatter than the mother and sibling and probably reminded the mother of her rapist.

[quote] the most hurtful and damaging thing in the entire scenario would be forcing that raped woman to then carry her rapist's leavings inside her for nine months.

How can a blessing from Our Lord Jesus Christ be hurtful and damaging? The rape created a new life, a new soul. God is good.

Rape is about power and control. Abortion is about power and control. White Evangelical terrorists need to stop crawling up the counts of poor women.

How dare spell check change cunts to counts. ☝️☝️☝️

[quote] My niece who refuses to get vaccinated is now studying to be a nurse

Too bad because she will not get into the university nor the hospitals she needs for clinical if she refuses. They will put pressure on her like you won't believe. I had a reaction with the flu shot (H1N1) over 10 years ago and refused it for 10 years until I got fed up from the pressure and the flu shot wasn't so bad after all. They had refined it or did something to the vaccine that I didn't feel a thing unlike the first time (chills, fever, numbness in my fingers, etc.).

R188 those are fairly common reactions to flu shots.

[quote]totally incapable of earning our salvation.

r177 Thankfully, humans don't have any real authority to grant one another true salvation, anyway.

It's not that I think everyone is "completely evil." It's that humanity has the [italic]capacity[/italic] for evil. It's in every last one of us. Over the course of my life, I've bore witness to some of the worst and vile demonstrations of this flaw of the human condition, and they've, unfortunately, been the dominate experience; hence, my worldview.

Some people have tapped into this inherent evil more than others (see: serial killers, rapists, etc). But with the right motivation and/or trigger, we all have the capacity to commit some of the most heinous, evil acts against one another. History has proven this. The pattern is always the same. All that's needed is an internal rationalization and justification to do so. And if history has taught us anything, it's when these rationalizations and justifications are founded in a subjective, yet dogmatic, interpretation of morality that human beings can be at their most dangerous. Power tends to exacerbate this flaw, as those who have it tend to want more of it. Thus, I'm the most wary of those in positions of power if I don't know them personally and vice versa.

[quote]Losing a job as a nurse is nothing compared to going to jail.

If it ever gets to that point, I would be more than happy to return to this very discussion. I hope it doesn't. But, based upon what's been going on in some parts of countries like Australia, it would not shock me at all:

[quote]No it doesn't. Depends on the woman

[quote]this statement makes me think you really aren't a woman.

...Sir.

[quote]the most hurtful and damaging thing in the entire scenario would be forcing that raped woman to then carry her rapist's leavings inside her for nine months.

Excuse me? The [italic]most[/italic] hurtful and damaging thing about being raped is actually being raped in the first damn place. What are you even talking about?

Mao, you really do need psychological help if you think going around infecting others with a potentially fatal disease is a positive and quarantining for a short period is evil. Do you think typhoid Mary should have been able to keep her job as a cook?

The Judeo-Christian tradition is replete with examples of the separation of people with communicable diseases from the community at large. Do you think G-d was evil when creating a purity code that kept lepers apart? You know they didn’t have Amazon prime back then. It was a lot harder to quarantine.

The fact is that the vaccines are not just a brilliant scientific breakthrough, they are also a miracle. But Satan hates miracles and he loves death and he is the father of lies and the great accuser of humanity. And so he uses lies and unfounded accusations to bring about more death. Everyone is capable of both good and evil and you need to make an informed decision based upon the fruit people bare in life. Automatically putting your trust in any yahoo with a YouTube video because you assume everyone in power is more evil than the guy making accusations is not discernment.

What is this Mao thing? Sounds like a real idiot.

R194 been spamming here for awhile, hitting covid threads hard. Definitely needs therapy if she/ he thinks a liberal LGB prochoice leaning site wants to read all their nonsense. Even if they're genuine, this isn't the forum for them. You'd think they'd get it by now, especially after the homophobic comments comparing it to HIV a 100x, as a supposed "straight woman".

[quote]Mao, you really do need psychological help if you think going around infecting others with a potentially fatal disease is a positive and quarantining for a short period is evil.

I literally never said this. This is a discussion about forcing people, who aren't necessarily infected, to take a brand new therapeutic that has never been approved for human use nor stops the transmission of the pathogen it's meant to combat, and branding them as "evil people who deserve to die" merely for being apprehensive. That, to me, is evil.

[quote]The fact is that the vaccines are not just a brilliant scientific breakthrough, they are also a miracle.

When just referring to the therapeutic in general, yes, this is correct. Not all vaccines, or the pathogens they're developed to combat, are created equal, however. There are many caveats.

[quote]Do you think G-d was evil when creating a purity code that kept lepers apart?

I'm not sure why you keep bringing religion into this. I never said I was religious but, ok. If I recall correctly, that was just Jewish law at the time. God was used as the authority to enforce people into compliance. Another Jewish law of "isolating the impure" involved completely isolating women who were menstruating because they were considered "unclean." This was also enforced by Jewish (man-made) law using God to strong-arm compliance of the people. The concept is always the same; powerful individuals exploiting the ignorance and perceived intellectual inferiority of people as a way to exert control over them.

You seem to assume that I just go on YouTube and don't properly vet any source nor have any working knowledge of the material I'm coming across whatsoever. That is inaccurate. I've only gone to reputable, scientific sources such as sciencedirect.com, bmj.com (obviously), researchgate.net, NIH, FDA, WHO and the CDC; not to mention board certified, licensed, and currently practicing physicians who, yes, happen to have YouTube channels where they share their qualified opinions and knowledge on the subject matter in question. I also studied medicine years ago. No, I am not a licensed physician nor did I pursue that field further. But that doesn't automatically mean I'm completely clueless and taking social media memes as gospel. I just prefer to diversify with various viewpoints in the scientific community. And you can't very-well say that the scientific community hasn't been split since day one when this virus first sprung up in China.

If anything, I was further incentivized to personally research everything I hear, read, etc due to the numerous contradictions and inconsistencies medical authorities demonstrated to the public in the beginning; the WHO and CDC being the worst examples of this back and forth.

R195, I believe I blocked that thing a few days ago. Claims to be a woman but seems to hate them and gays.

To be clear, I have never and will never advise anyone against taking the vaccine. But if I'm going to constantly have to defend my position on why people, like myself, are hesitant at this time to take it, lest we be branded "anti-vaxx disease-spreading, murderers" I am certainly going to do so. If they hadn't made a big deal about those who are hesitant and encouraged silence over discussion and understanding, I wouldn't bother saying anything.

This op-ed I think outlines my main problem with that issue, also.

Mao, you brought up your Baptist upbringing as forming your views on this matter and literally just linked a video about Australia enforcing quarantine in a disapproving manner. So on top of being a troll you also seem to have a poor memory. Anyway keep staying home.

So our very reasonable mao is supposedly black. Is a woman. Had a religious upbringing. Is waiting for more studies and data before getting the vaccine.

Could we have Nicki Minaj among us???

Mao, sing us a few notes ...

[quote]If anything, I was further incentivized to personally research everything I hear, read, etc due to the numerous contradictions and inconsistencies medical authorities demonstrated to the public in the beginning; the WHO and CDC being the worst examples of this back and forth.

Odd that you've "studied medicine" and done so much "research" of your own, yet you seem completely flummoxed about the evolving understanding of a novel virus.

r199 ElderLez, you seem to assume that me mentioning my Baptist upbringing automatically makes me religious when my whole argument is that I question all authority who discourage questions and being challenged on their orders [italic]because[/italic] of the draconian leadership I was raised under. In what way does that indicate I'm religious? Seems like you would get the hint that it's the exact opposite. Also, you're the one who brought up being jailed for not taking medication for an illness as being worse than "losing a job as a nurse." I merely posted an example showing that such things are already happening with regards to this virus. I'm not the one with memory problems, here, ma'am.

r202 Coronaviruses have been around for decades and they knew this was in the coronavirinae subfamily and of the SARS strain. Taking basic measures such as shutting down all outbound international travel from China in January-February of last year was discouraged by the WHO, and Fauci advised against mask-wearing...for a respiratory illness...that spreads via respiratory droplets...as respiratory illnesses tend to do. All of this was AFTER China had already confirmed human-to-human transmission.

For years, every flu season, if you would go into any ER or urgent care, the first thing you would see at the door or lobby would be a box of face masks with a sign that basically read: "Feeling flu-like symptoms? Here, have a mask so you don't spread that nasty shit to anyone else, please and thank you." Too many health authorities dropped the ball on issues that, really, should've been common damn sense.

r201

The bottom line is, at best, our health authorities are incompetent. And at worst, they were lying. When you add to the blatant politicization of this virus, I honestly don't know why it's so surprising so many people seek alternative means to get information about it that doesn't involve the media, politicians, and government health authorities. I really don't.

The medical and scientific community were dealing with a novel virus. It also didn't help that we had Bozo the Clown for POTUS and he dismantled the Pandemic Response Team.

Last February 2020 when the Covid pandemic started, there was scarcity of masks. 3M and all the US masks suppliers sent all their masks and ventilators to China. USA was practically out of masks. I worked in the largest HMO in California and we had no masks, not even the blue surgical masks. If we did, it was tightly controlled. The ICU nurses were wearing the same N95 masks for weeks, and they were told to spray it with Lysol and leave it in a paper bag with their name on it. The HMO finally bought millions of dollars worth of masks with the help of Governor Newsom but just before landing on their doorstep, the Feds (or Jared) took it away! Trump did nothing to help us then, like giving the finger to the Blue States.

They need to write a book on this whole mess, especially the confiscation of PPE by the Feds in the Blue States The Feds also stole PPE from Germany last year while it was being transferred from the plane at the airport. California had no masks, we had to buy masks from Asia and then Newsom had to make sure the Feds did not know where the plane was landing.

Yes, we were told the masks were not necessary then but it was only at the very beginning and it didn't last that long.. It was mostly because surgical masks were in short supply and only to be used by healthcare workers who badly needed them. People started making their own cloth masks.

So stop blaming Fauci and the medical community. They were up against a new virus, there was a mask shortage and we were dealing with a hostile federal government. There was no one in charge of the Covid response last year, only Brix, the scarf lady, she was the sole person in charge of the Covid response and the CDC was muzzled. Fauci was doing his best against a horrible POTUS who was making him the enemy. Covid struck the Blue States first and the Federal government just abandoned us. This is how the message got screwed.

Boy bye. All of them were on some bullshit. -_-

Anyways...

More bullshit:

Mao, you are full of shit and as lots of people have warned, a fucking troll. No one wants to read your self-pitying dribble.

Literally the only person who wasn't bullshitting throughout this entire crisis.

[quote]—you have been blocked.

Ok, and? Bye.

I've stayed away from this thread for a few days, and I see that "mao" is still posting words and videos without adding anything to the conversation except a weary tone of innocent aggrievedness. What a waste of pixels.

r212 I have posted sources, in various threads, all over this site and am, frankly, tired of it. The way this site is built, apparently, you can only post one link per reply instead of having a list of links in one post. And I've literally read through nearly hundreds of studies about SARS-CoV-1 and 2, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), antibody dependent enhancement, etc. I'm not about to post a reply for every. Single. Link. Especially not for a bunch of people who are only interested in bad-faith arguments and being as condescending as possible. I'm not about to do all of that.