'Workers Pining for the Office' says inept, biased NY Times article.

No one who isn’t back yet is PINING to go back.

OP, you might want to sit down. One sign of being a grown up is to understand other people aren't you. Sorry I have to break your little one person universe so wide open.

I've been back in the office since the end of May, but most of my co-workers are not. As a result, I love going to the office -- there are days when I'm the only person on the floor and since I'm an introvert, that's fine by me; plus, it allows me to separate my work life from my personal life -- when I get home, I don't even turn the computer on; and being in the office makes me more disciplined and productive.

To each his own, ya know?

I had to go in on Saturday to print a bunch of stuff and ended up staying a few hours to get some stuff done. It felt nice to be back, but I was completely alone.

I am probably never going back except as needed and then will hot desk as I gave up my private office. The people who started going back in the spring are those who don’t have a great work from home set up, often small apartments and/or young children.

OP, how is this hobbling together a few losers? (I think you mean "cobbling together," by the way.)

"In a national survey of more than 950 workers, conducted in mid-August by Morning Consult on behalf of The New York Times, 31% said they would prefer to work from home full time. By comparison, 45% said they wanted to be in a workplace or an office full time. The remaining 24% said they wanted to split time between work and home."

R2, you might want to fuck off. One sign of being a grown up is to understand other people aren't you, and think you're full of shit.

Sorry I have to break your little asshole-person trolling and completely not getting the purpose of this website, but your need to scold complete strangers from your Flyoverville shithole is the only point you've made.

Poor little OP/R6. Thread seems to agree with me. Time to get your "binkie", dear.

Poor little frau cunt R2 R7; a snide parasite and wannabe troll.

Have you ever actually worked in an office, fraucunt? Nope. Back to knitting kitten cozies for Etsy, fraucunt.

Everyone from my office and from my partner’s office wants to stay home longer. Everyone hates the commute and realizes how worthless it is.

Go, Delta!

Look away, DLers. R8 is throwing a tantrum.

[quote] Just 13% of Americans worked from home at some point in July

How can this be correct? It seems everyone is still working from home. Very few offices opened up again. I would say 80% are still working from home.

Look away, all. Obese R2, R10 etc. is WOUNDED! She has parked her wide ass in the break room and is eating all the snacks. Once Fraucunt's on a roll, stand back. She will snap and flap her arm folds at you!

Sociopaths miss bullying everyone. They were really looking forward to being 'mask Nazis' and tattling on people.

It's the people who have no lives and the office being their only social outlet who want to go back. Also, straight guys who want to get away from their wives and kids and do nothing but bullshit and talk sports with the other asshole straight guys all day.

Everybody else is just fine working from home.

Agreed R11, 15% seems way too low, but when I scanned the article I think the reason is this:

[quote]Morning Consult surveyed workers from a variety of industries, so white-collar office workers were represented alongside those working in other fields, like retail.

The other industries are skewing the more typical office workers, which I think still primarily want to work from home. The place I work at has hundreds of people in our dept and recent surveys show virtually no one wants to go back.

Not that's stopping management from trying to do it though.....

Wow, OP, you really lost it r6.

How embarrassed you must be! You completely humiliated yourself.

[quote] How can this be correct? It seems everyone is still working from home. Very few offices opened up again. I would say 80% are still working from home.

So, you're saying we should trust your anecdotal impressions rather than a professional survey undertaken by the New York Times.

Wow, trolletta. R2, R16 etc. You've truly parked your fat ass where it's unwelcome. Stink up a room much, trolletta? Did you even read one sentence of the article, trolletta? Your every typed word screams "Pay attention to me!"

R14 - exactly. I dread having to go back to the office. HR is already trying to promote "team building get togethers" for the staff that include going out to lunch in randomly selected groups (for spontaneity!) and doing after-hours gatherings to "get to know each other better" and other such annoying crap because they want us to be " a family." I do my job, I do it well, and I don't want to be friends with my co-workers. I work better from home because I'm not getting distracted/interrupted by all this other bullshit.

I also believe this article is completely manufactured. No one I know wants to go back to the office unless they're trying to get away from roommates, screaming kids, spouses, noisy construction near their home.

There are also geographic differences to how return to office is being handled. West coast/Silicon Valley tech companies don't care, while East coast NYC banks and asset management firms want people back in at least a few days a week.

But it's not even a secret anymore that De Blasio and Cuomo have heavily pressured companies in NYC to bring back their office workers because the office workers prop up the local economies. They were supposedly threatening to take away tax incentives and abatements for those companies that did not comply.

R17 - Get real., The NYT is not at all a trustworthy source anymore, and hasn't been for a long time, especially with regard to anything that impacts the Big Money executives in the corporate world. You're a naive fool if you trust a survey sample touted by the NYT.

Thanks R21. My point exactly.

Same here R19, our dept is trying to do happy hours and team building crap for those that have returned. It's amazing how unoriginal and vapid HR fraus are. Truly the worst function that was ever invented.

[quote] "team building get togethers"

FUCK. THAT. SHIT.

I have an active social/personal life and do not need to see my co-workers on the weekends. There are a grand total of four co-workers who I enjoy spending time with outside of work but the rest I have nothing in common with and I don't need to see them outside of the office.

A few times in my career, the companies I've worked for have had those godawful "weekend retreat team-building" bullshit things out at campgrounds or what-have-you. Every single time I pretended I had to attend a wedding out of state and couldn't make it. Zero guilt.

These articles trying to insert the idea that most people really really want to return to the office is, essentially, propaganda. There's a lot of office space real estate contracts sitting empty that are costing businesses loads of money. Boo hoo and fuck them. Maybe catch up with changing times and realize that remote work is not the future, it's already here, and the pandemic helped anchor the idea into the collective population's psyche. Younger generations are not going to play the tired game the corporate old guard is struggling to prop up. That world is collapsing. Good riddance.

Huzzah, R24 and R25. Truth!

Younger people who have multiple roommates might want to go back to the office, esp. if the office is only half-full. I take for granted that I have my own apartment, it's quiet when I need quiet, etc. (for the most part). When I was younger and had roommates, I'd probably be 50/50 on whether I wanted to stay home or go to an office.

Reading this thread and other comment sections in articles that talk about this topic, two things are very clear:

The small percentage of people who want to go back in the office want to drag EVERYONE else with them back to the office.

The overwhelmingly large number of people who want to work from home permanently want to be left alone to do their work. They're not forcing everyone else to work from home forever. If you want to go into the office, then go!

Who is really the controlling, sociopathic, motherfucker in this situation?

Fuck OP. You sound like a whiny, lazy cunt.

My job allows for Flex and I personally love going in. I want more people to come in because some people on our teams CLEARLY cannot be accountable to do all of their work from home. I can't tell you how many have been busted on social media at Barry's Boot camp during the work day, miss deadlines, don't show up to meetings.

I appreciate that we have the ability to go in some days and work from home as well. Why the fuck would I want to be in my small NYC apartment all day and night while my SO also works from home? I like having some separation from work and home. And there is a SweetGreen in our lobby.

In my experience, the people are back in the office couldn't give a shit whether other people return or not, while those that prefer to work at home don't give a shit if their co-worker would rather be in the office.

[quote] In my experience, the people are back in the office couldn't give a shit whether other people return or not

Not true. I want people to return so I have people to go to lunch with. I love banter and gossip. It’s not fun to do water cooler talk with yourself. Plus I’m missing office romance.

[quote] Fuck OP. You sound like a whiny, lazy cunt.

And you read like an arrogant, douchebro pimply-faced blowhard no one want to share office air with, R29.

When the fuck did I even mention my work situation? You didn't even read the article, just like ass-faced 'managers' like you who have completely unessential jobs, do little actual work, and [bold] whine [/bold] about their tiny apartments.

R29 if you have poor performers on your team, that's not a work arrangement problem. It's a management problem. Your manager, or maybe you are the manager, made bad hiring decisions and is letting bad behavior go unchecked.

Bad employees will be under performers whether they're at home or at the office. In fact, there's been a number of articles at this point explaining how poor performers and useless middle managers have been exposed as not adding much value, and that's what certain useless people are afraid of.

The ones who LOVE being in the office now won’t love it so much when the unhappy hoards are forced back and there is no way to safely social distance anymore.

The New York Times are such obvious corporate shills it's actually laughable. The vast majority of people are happy to telecommute and spend their free time with those close to them or doing things they actually care about ( hobbies, working out, etc). What's going on is that the corporate bigwigs want workers back in the office. So they're pushing their lapdogs in the media to spread this narrative. A happy medium where those who wish to return can and those who don't can work online should be considered but it probably won't be. America is a culture of extremes and hates happy medium.

[quote] some people on our teams CLEARLY cannot be accountable to do all of their work from home. I can't tell you how many have been busted on social media at Barry's Boot camp during the work day, miss deadlines, don't show up to meetings.

Agree with R33. This is not a working-from-home issue. These are bad workers and should be disciplined (suspended without pay) progressively and then terminated (if they still can't perform). The office should not be a baby-sitting situation where you need to keep your eye on everybody to see if they're actually working.

[quote] The vast majority of people are happy to telecommute and spend their free time with those close to them

But what if the people you’re close to are your co-workers?

If you're close to your coworkers, you can do stuff and socialize outside of work. As I've moved through jobs, I realize that work friendships don't survive when you move on to a new job.

R37 Well as I mentioned I think there should be the option of being in office for those who prefer it. But I don't believe that everyone should be forced back into in office work and long commutes if they are doing the same quality work at home. It seems like the " everyone back to the office" is being pushed not because it's pragmatic but from a sort of conservatism ( ie this is what's always been done so we should continue to do it). Along with the American idea that spending long hours in the office is somehow noble.

A good pal's midtown NYC is "pivoting" (inane term, but whatever...) by moving to a smaller office, alternating work days and shared pace, 2-4 days a week, saving thousands with less overhead.

[quote]Before the pandemic, Roya Joseph’s days at the office were defined by interaction. She looked forward to casual conversations with co-workers, mentorship sessions with managers and periodic, freewheeling chats — known as “teatime” — in the office kitchen.

Bitching about people who don't show up for "teatime" or mentorship sessions, and "casual conversations with coworkers" is called work, huh?

[quote]“It’s depressing,” Joseph, 32, said. [of her office shuttering again due to Delta variant] “I feel like we’re being pushed back to that isolation bubble. I feel like, mentally, I’m not ready to face that again.”

Translation: Less the chitchat and the mentorships and the "teatime," I have a job I can do in 2.5 hours, easy. I'm fucking bored and need constant affirmation.

[quote]“We are in this perpetual state of waiting, and that now has been extended with more uncertainty,” she said.

Of course you are, you idiot. Do you not pay any attention to the news? I will stand up for your employer this one time and say, they don't fucking know either. Every time they think there are nearing a place where they can make a decision, a new turn in the story. Can employers require vaccinations? How can they "accommodate" the non-vaccinated? What if the vaccinated and the un-vaccinated insist on being in the same shared space?

R41 I like how she is practically proclaiming to the world, and every other employer, that she just wants to go to work to fucking chit-chat.

Now when an potential employer Googles her name, there going to find her chit-chat bullshit at the top of the search results.

My manager tried to tell me how important it is to have in person conversations with people. I told her I used to go in to my cube, work, go the bathroom and leave. I don’t do chit chat and I’m not interested in befriending people I’m in competition with for roles. My manager has never met me in person because my team is spread out across the country. What a load of BS.

R17 & R21, I've been saying for years that the only truthful section of the NYT's is Art & Leisure. I realized what it actually was during the leadup to the Iraqi and Afghanistan invasions, both of which the whole-heartedly supported while ignoring, downplaying, or mocking a very large anti-war movement. Their propaganda has gotten much worse and more obvious.....race, climate change, the imminent and justified collapse of the American enterprise, doom and gloom and more systematic racism, all the time.

R38 this is true. I first learned this at age 20 when I was surprised that I pretty much never heard from people I had worked long shifts with ( and socialized after hours with) after I left the job. I was going through a very rough patch at the time so it stung but I later accepted that these work friendships tend to be shallow. They're based more on proximity than anything else.

R45 is right. At 45 I've learned work friends are just that - for work. Especially if you move industries/cities/etc. As you get older you also don't find yourself being interested in too many other people's lives.

We're in SF and only 25% of people are back in the office but the traffic is back to pre-pandemic levels. Uggh. Last week an explosion on the Bay Bridge at rush hour shut left people stuck on the bridge for 90 minutes to travel 8 miles, or going around two bridges through four counties to get around it.

I've been stuck in enough of those jams to last a lifetime.

I'm a Fed and we were supposed to be given 30 days notice to return on 8/2 but Biden's mandates at the end of July foiled those plans. Gotta thank the Covidiots and anti-maskers for that.

I don’t miss noisy chit chat, hearing about coworkers’ kids’ soccer games, the smell of reheated lunches, shared restrooms, hours in my car. You folks in studio apartments go back, ENJOY YOURSELVES. I won’t go willingly.

R47 yes! The only people back in the office are escaping their home for a myriad of reasons from space constraints to abusive relationships. No sane person with a good home office setup wants anything to do with getting dressed up, commuting and dealing with all the crap at the office.

Fucking Nicole, and her microwaved seafood pasta.

Don’t you guys miss the baked goods at the office? I love testing out recipes and bringing them in to share with my co-workers. They love it and call me Baker Betty. I also love bringing in anything I can’t finish and putting it in the break room. It’ll be gone in hours. I do that a lot with experimental things from Trader Joe’s. I usually just want to taste it and then get bored and put the rest of the package out for the hordes.

I don’t miss the soul-crushing conditions that make me eat bakery crap just so I can get a tiny dopamine rush at the office R50.

[quote] You folks in studio apartments go back, ENJOY YOURSELVES. I won’t go willingly.

I work from home. My home is a studio apartment. Maybe it sounds awful, but you really can set up your living / work space to still feel relaxing (when not working).

I would encourage anyone living in a studio or small space to give it a try. Much better, for me, than going into an office, sharing a bathroom, packing lunches, etc.

I have lost 15 lbs and my formerly high triglycerides are normal again. I attribute it to eating much healthier because I have time to make my own food everyday and not having the endless supply of donuts, bagels, birthday cakes in the office.

I am laser focused at work and in fact am even more connected with my teams than pre-pandemic. I work with people all over the world. Our regular conference calls became Zoom or Teams calls. I do not feel isolated at all. When I am done for the day, I log out, turn off the light and close the door.

I still often skip lunch or eat at my desk but some days I will take a break, run errands, watch TV or even take a nap for an hour and when I do I realize this is how we are supposed to live. As long as the work gets done and your teammates can reach you who cares where you are?

I also don’t want to give up my creature comforts of WFH. I control the temperature, lighting, furnishings (I recently redid my office, it’s very tranquil and a bit luxe). Eat what I want when I want it, no smelling other’s food. Wear comfortable clothes (and cut down on laundry considerable). Having my pets hang out with me. And don’t underestimate the benefits of farting at will and not having to take a shit at work.

I love working from home. I understand that there are those who prefer to be back in the office. I support them working in the place that works best for them even if it's different than what works best for me.

HOWEVER

If they choose to go back to the office there better not be any woe is me, I am a super human, look at me in the office while you are at home bullshit. Because I know most of the people wanting back in the office aren't nose to the grindstone.

[quote]And don’t underestimate the benefits of farting at will and not having to take a shit at work.

Some real truth here, I go whenever I want now.

R33 do you manage people? It's become much harder to hold people accountable these days, especially if they fall into any type of protected class. Most HR people will encourage you to deal with the situation for fear of lawsuits. We had one person on a Performance Improvement goal. The day before it ended this person went on a vague medical leave and is now trying to get an "exit package" equivalent to a year's salary. He was in the role for 7 months.

I can manage people up if they are coachable and have a work ethic, but it is becoming increasingly hard to manage people out.

I've also been eating healthier since working from home.

[quote] And there is a SweetGreen in our lobby.

This I’m afraid was written as a boast 😵‍💫😵‍💫😵‍💫

1. The Times has an overt political agenda with which many DLers agree. But it has an actual political agenda which fewer DLers recognize. And loathe.

2. Nevertheless, some of us do prefer the office.

NYT wants to see people occupying midtown offices again, supporting local businesses, making the Big Apple the center of the univerae again.

[quote] Don’t you guys miss the baked goods at the office? I love testing out recipes and bringing them in to share with my co-workers. They love it and call me Baker Betty. I also love bringing in anything I can’t finish and putting it in the break room. It’ll be gone in hours. I do that a lot with experimental things from Trader Joe’s. I usually just want to taste it and then get bored and put the rest of the package out for the hordes.

No, I don't miss the baked goods. I can buy my own and get exactly what I want instead of something semi-homemade from a coworker. I do try to maintain my weight and hated the pressure to eat foods prepared by coworkers.

People who constantly bring in baked goods tend to be people pleasers. I'd rather just get my work done and buy my own snacks.

But what about the potlucks? I miss bringing in my special recipes, especially the theme days like Chinese day or Mexican day. My co-workers loved my General Barb’s chicken and my Senorita Beef with Not’cho Average Sauce.

I also miss fundraisers for my coworkers' kids. I love opening my wallet to donate.

Farting at will and using your own bathroom are reason enough for me to stay as work from home. Everything else is a bonus.

"“Some people just dislike the screen — their physicality and their proximity to others is a big part of what work looks like,” she said."

I expect those are the ones who were always dropping work for horrible "parties", chatting, gossiping, complaining, backstabbing, etc. Put them at home with the computer and all they've got to do is work!

Gen X HR Cunt Karen Fraus live for the office

R66 It's the only place where they can exert any real power to fuck someone over.

They ARE losers because no one who has a beauitful spacious home filled with gorgeous stuff wants to go to some shitty office. People with crappy homes with no garden or pool or beauty: OF COURSE they're stir crazy.

I don't believe my work is going to require us to come back physically come back into the office. We already have people working from other parts of the country, and during the time since we went home in March of last year, we have made our process paperless. I HATED the work set up when I was in the office...even though they put me in an office, I shared it with someone, and also, I constantly had people coming in to get physical files and ask me stupid questions. My productivity has gotten better, and we just finished performance evals in which my Manager specifically said that I worked well from home. Plus my elderly dog used to miss me very badly when I was in the office 8+ hours a day and I know for a fact he would howl and moan while I was gone. I live in a studio apartment so pretty much my entire apartment is my office space, but I'm absolutely fine with that. It's worth it to be able to work in my underwear, watch tv while I'm working and not have to socialize with people or take lunch if/when I want. I've already told them I'm moving to the East Coast early next year, so they are already planning for me not to be back at the physical office.

The vast majority of workers are already back at work. That's a simple fact. You all most likely will be back soon, too. That is also a simple fact.

Don't think so, r70. Even our Operations Manager moved 100+ miles away from the office and is strictly WFH.

R70 works in retail.

R72, actually, I don't but I am able to understand the reality of others. A lot of you are speaking from a position of the minority. The vast majority of workers have worked, on-site, throughout the pandemic and more and more of them, like teachers, are going back every single day. Many of you sound like a bunch of elitists.

Yes, a lot of people work on-site because they have to deal with customers, teach students, serve diners, provide nursing, fold sweaters at The GAP, work the drive-thru, build construction, drive taxis, etc. None of that could be done from home. But if you’re not doing any of that stuff, why would you need to work on site? If you’re a knowledge keeper or working with your brain, you don’t need to.

[quote]A lot of you are speaking from a position of the minority. The vast majority of workers have worked, on-site, throughout the pandemic and more and more of them, like teachers, are going back every single day. Many of you sound like a bunch of elitists.

Obviously.

If I'm a welder I should expect to buy to buy heavy-duty Carhartt work clothes and bear the weight of heat in summer and cold in winter. My workplace will not be in the spare bedroom and will involve a commute, probably a hefty one. My "physicality and their proximity to others is a big part of what work looks like," in other words I have to be a place that exists purely for work, a welding shop or on site in a construction area.

Likewise for teachers as you mention. I can't imagine the difficulty in engaging with and holding the attention of each student on a Zoom lesson for 45 minutes, then doing it again five or six times a day. The teachers I know say their work is vastly more difficult when conducted from home (yet they were/are glad to be able to do to protect everyone's health.)

Hotel workers. Retail workers. Road construction crews. Delivery and transportation workers. Drivers license renewal clerks. Security workers. Park maintenance. Grocery clerks. Dog groomers. Surgeons. Emergency services. There are untold occupations and positions that not only benefit enormously from working onsite, but for which there is little other option.

People who work from home are lucky to be able to do so, no interruptions in their pay throughout Covid. Their laptops and the skills in their heads, however simple or complex , make their work portable to a degree unavailbale to many other types of workers. No one is unaware of this.

What many of the those fortunate workers (and that's more than 41% of the working Americans, for example) are arguing is the lesson of Covid: that the office as a workplace is and outdated model overdue for rethinking; the fear that working from home would be attended by an enormous slump in productivity and business failures was an illusion. If the modern model of commercial leased office space and pod farms isn't working, the solution focuses on what's the best environment for office workers — not on on the working environments of dog groomers and bus drivers and building site safety inspectors and dairy farmers who don't have space for 240 cows in their spare bedroom. The nature of daily work on dairy farms has changed substantially in the past 40 or 50 years, evolving through technology, veterinary medicine, automation and other factors and yet I don't expect dairy farmers ever once thought to ask the opinion of shop clerks along the way.

The people arguing about working from home are not elitists, they're just looking at their own problem in their own jobs. It happens that their jobs represent more than 4 in 10 of all jobs, so it's not exactly the tail wagging the dog.

Working from home reduces carbon emissions! Working from home saves the business from having to rent office space! Working at home reduces traffic, cuts down on toxic office politics, and keeps disgruntled ex-employees from shooting up the office where they used to work!

Working from home is a win-win-win when it's possible, it benefits the employer, the employee, and society in general.

R75, they're not elitists? I'll just leave this here...

[quote]If you’re a knowledge keeper or working with your brain, you don’t need to.

Hey - anybody posting here who does work in a store & has to actually show up, physically, for work:

I'm very grateful!!! I really do think the store (e.g., food) workers were the heroes at the beginning of the pandemic. I'm not joking.

Thank you!

My company isn't even talking about going back part time in 2021. I will never go in more than 2 days a week. I'll resign first and have made that clear to my management. We'll see how long it lasts.

In real life, I know both kinds of people. It’s really all over the place. Some want to be back, some don’t.

I work for a very large well known company that shall remain nameless for the sake of privacy which has been in the news regarding some back to the office articles in the past few months.

I have asked several coworkers how they feel about this and almost no one wants to go back in person except a few people here and there for personal reasons ranging from kids at home to inadequate home office set up.

Nobody misses the commute and most people have become more productive at home because they can just stay signed on.

I like some of my coworkers and enjoy their company, but the daily chit chat and coffee breaks are a distraction I can do without which is why I am so much more productive at home.

I think that the people who want to return are doing it for selfish reasons that are totally unrelated to workplace productivity.

More time and money and less stress. Many I know like sleeping an hour later, saving money on tolls, gas, subway/train fares, parking fees and when finished work they are home. Less stress and no concerns about traffic, delays and inclement weather.

I also call bullshit on this article. The Times clearly has an agenda here. They, not coincidentally, also published this a few weeks ago:

I love rolling out of bed without having to worry about how long my commute will be. I used to get up at 5 am to avoid traffic and parking issues and now I stay in bed until 7 am so my stress level is much better.

The Corporate landlords are in for the fight of their life. We’ve had a taste of freedom and we want to keep it.

It's fascinating, r85, because at the same time we've seen freedoms restricted in ways incomprehensible 2 years ago.

The Times is oh so progressive, and oh so on the side of the working person -- just as long as you drones know your place. And your place is with your ass fused to an office chair, hunched over your desk, doing as you're told.

The Times will be sure and let you proles know when it's time for the revolution. In the meantime, don't get uppity or you won't like what happens.

The NYT is out of touch with people. It used to be "the" source.

One wonders how many New York Times staff members are back in the office full-time these days since they're so stoked about promoting it.

They can stoke themselves to death, I'm not going back.

Future generations will look at reruns of [italic]The Office[/italic] and wonder why we bothered with such things.

[quote]More time and money and less stress. Many I know like sleeping an hour later, saving money on tolls, gas, subway/train fares, parking fees and when finished work they are home. Less stress and no concerns about traffic, delays and inclement weather.

How much pay are you willing to give up to keep these benefits? And, speaking of benefits, which of your employment benefits are you also willing to give up due to these new benefits of convenience taking their place?

R92 Zero! I have not had my pay or benefits cut at all and moved to a much lower cost state from NYC. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game and you don't need to be a hater.

R93, have you met employers? They are already doing the fiscal analysis. You will be paid less with fewer benefits in exchange for the convenience of working from home.

Some of the first companies are already cutting pay. The rest will eventually follow. Also, if your job can easily be done from half a country away, it can certainly be done from half a world away. Why should they pay you to do a job someone in Indonesia or Brazil can do for way less money? Manufacturing was the canary in the greed coalmine and corporate America is fine with dead canaries all over the place.

R94 You're not familiar with the dynamics of my workplace but cutting benefits for employees is not something that's happening where I work. I'm in a position to know how benefits are administered, and reducing them on a person by person basis based on where they live is just not how the system we have works.

Change in pay is possible but hasn't happened yet, and there have been no announcements saying they're going to do that. As a result, I'm going to make the most of it while it lasts.

R95 not all jobs can be outsourced to international countries. Especially ones that require certain licenses in finance, law, and healthcare. Also, government jobs that require a security clearance and that you be an American citizen cannot be outsourced .

Not every place is Google where tech/software engineering jobs are more open to outsourcing.

[quote]How much pay are you willing to give up to keep these benefits? ...which of your employment benefits are you also willing to give up due to these new benefits of convenience taking their place?

Office space cost per employee per year is about $1200/mo. or $14K+ per year, plus parking subsidies, plus coffee concessions, plus admittedly minor supply costs, etc.

Why should WFH employees be asked to sacrifice so that their employee can save per person $10k, $14k a year, plus fewer facilities staff (mail room, copier maintenance, reduced site liability insurance, etc)?

Employees in most cases are left to cover the cost of their home utilities, wifi, office furniture, lighting, toilet paper, pens, copiers, coffee, and other work or work-time costs, and may find in the long term that they need a larger or different space to accommodate s home office.

Employers may resist any but a token stipend for giving employees something for working from home. Not many are going to give a "rebate" on saved commercial office leasing costs per employee. And very few will make more than a token concession to an employee's cost of working from home (a one-time office chair allowance, or a flat allowance toward internet connections.(

Bur expecting employees to pay (by reduced salary) for the employers' annual savings of $10k or $14k from not providing the office space? No.

They may try to fuck you by adjusting salary to where you live, but that will eventually change.

In my workplace a majority of the people who are not only eager to return to the office but also are trying to force everyone else to do so as well are straight, white and male. Many of them are married with children and have talked repeatedly about wanting to escape from the wife and kids. OK, if they want to do it, fine. Let them. Why the fuck should everyone else be forced to go in just because they want to?

Surprisingly only some of the frauen are going in already. In the team or departmental meetings the straight white guys have dominated the discussions about returning to work, talked over others, mansplained constantly and even gone to the extent of suggesting that workers should not be given a choice.

The Vice President for HR in my company sends our an email every few weeks acknowledging how everyone is just about dying to get back into the office, back into the swing of seeing friends and colleagues, of that easy collegiality of the workplace... The truth is quite the opposite. It's the nature of the work that our offices are largely filled with independent ("I know best") people whose work is largely and necessarily solitary and whose preferred style of interaction is: None, thanks.

The VP has chosen to misinterpret, of course, in favor of a cheery tone:

"How much notice can you promise us when you do make a decision about when the offices will reopen -- I've got a kid I have to arrange care for?" = "Can't wait to get back to the office."

"We're being bought out by a company that, before Covid, had moved very aggressively into WFH for most staff. People almost uniformly love working from home and productivity is up. Why are you pushing to reopen offices, especially as leases are expiring in key locations?" = "Can't wait to get back to the office."

The few people moaning that they really can't wait to get back are the worst sorts of brown-nosers. The ones who started with a job that produced something, then they pushed a Mentorship Progam, then a Mentorship Program for Women, then a Skills Training Week, then some other shit to make themselves ubiquitous and seemingly important doing fuck all besides flooding email in-boxes with invitations to Thursday lunch break sessions on Pride Month at Acme Co., or How To Find Your Mentor! You know the sort, the ones who update their LinkedIn profiles twice a day.

R99, who still runs the world? Straight white guys, especially in corporate America. If straight white guys are the ones who want to be back, you're all going back. Maybe they won't be in charge anymore when the next pandemic forces us all to stay home again and things will actually change. There is no force lacking the ability to evolve in any way more than straight white guys.

I’ve been back at work for well over a year now, and as a manager, have struggled to get coverage and a decent staff so I don’t have to work my days off. It’s really hard to read these articles and not think these people are being lazy or trying to hold down two jobs at the same time.

I went MONTHS with not one applicant and suddenly people are calling out of the blue and I don’t need them. My first response, “Oh, I wish you had called a few months ago, all the positions are full, but apply online so we have your info if anything opens”.

My heart goes out to those that really need to stay home, but everyone else can fuck off.

R102 you’re a cheap fuck that’s why no one applied.

I want to go back but just half the time. Like 3 days a week. My company still has us working from home. They said we’ll return in the November (assuming Variants die down) and we’ll go only twice a week.

I do miss the office though. I’m in my 30s and miss going out for happy hour. Lots of my friends live far but we all worked close by. I really do love my job and like all my co workers too. But also it’s to get away from home! Lol. I love my partner and pets, but working from home means I get zero alone time and they are so needy for attention. And lastly, I miss dressing up. No way in Hell I’m gonna put on a suit and stay at home but it is fun to wear them to work. Even for zoom meetings, I put in a work shirt and stay in my shorts. Working from home makes me feel like a housewife. I did dress up at home one day and I felt like an idiot.

I do slightly prefer this to going in 5 days a week though. Personally I’d love for 2/3 days at the office to stick around.

[quote]I’ve been back at work for well over a year now, and as a manager, have struggled to get coverage and a decent staff so I don’t have to work my days off. [bold]It’s really hard to read these articles and not think these people are being lazy or trying to hold down two jobs at the same time.[/bold]

Worse than "a cheap fuck," R102 seems mean-spirited, stewing in his own bitterness (yes, welcome to The Data Lounge.) It seems he would begrudge and try to discredit anyone who has some little benefit that he doesn't enjoy or didn't once enjoy.

Right. Millions of white-collar workers are holding down two jobs at a time and/or lazily wanking all day? It doesn't matter. As a manager your job is to see that they get their work done well and in a timely fashion, not to check their hands for stickiness.

Yep. This working-from-home stuff has been a nightmare for:

1. Brown-nosers whose main job was to suck up to the boss -- figuratively or literally -- while other people did all their work, and the suckups got the acclaim and promotions. WFH has made it evident who is actually working and who isn't.

2. Motormouth talkers who used the office as a social crutch, since they probably had no one else in their life who was a captive audience. Meanwhile, those around them in the cubicle farm were forced to try to work while hearing them blabber on and on about gossip, sports, popular movies/TV shows, etc. Where are the talkers now? In straitjackets, because their audience for vapid gum-flapping is gone? Committing suicide by talking at themselves in a mirror till they've bored themselves to death?

3. Cheating husbands/wives who found going to the office a convenient way to pick out prospective partners and be away from home so they could find time to fuck.

4. Most of all, useless middle managers. Most contribute nothing but hot air and strife. Now their worthlessness has been revealed for all to see, like the Great and Powerful Oz frantically twirling useless cranks behind a curtain.

R104 Ru a gay man?

Even though my office has relaxed it’s 3 day a week office policy to completely optional, I’ve been going in to get away from my husband and work out in the gym. Plus free sodas and goodies like m&ms and peanut butter pretzels.

R106 nails it.

Marry me R106.

R94 - they can fiscally analyze all they want, but they'd be better off simply catching up. These employers will be faced with an ever-shrinking job candidate pool to select from as younger generations (who will be a significant and increasing number of the work force as years go on) submit their *own* requirements for employment. If companies actually think they can decrease salaries and benefits in the manner you list, they better be prepared for the other side of the bargaining battle: i.e., needing to pay for equipment (computers, printers, scanners and the like), partial rent reimbursement for turning part of one's home into an "office" for work,, all supplies connected with the employment (including software, apps, ISP costs, electrical costs, and so on). There are two sides to the employer/employee tug of war and the old way of doing things is crumbling quickly. It's pretty obvious when you consider how many articles are being put out by the NYT and other coprorate shill media outlets as they try to frighten, alarm, cajole or PR the population into believing their bullshit.

r111 once the Boomers are totally gone from the workforce things are going to change very rapidly. They're the ones who are still in charge of things and running the show at the top levels.

How will young people entering the workforce know about how to work if they never go in the office? I know people who graduated in the last two years who can’t find jobs because companies only want experienced people working from home. They don’t want to onboard and train a new graduate from home.

R112 - exactly. Given a choice between WFH and losing benefits/cuts in salary, younger generations will likely chose WFH and submit their own requirements as well, and they'll seek other options if the company doesn't want to agree. That's already happened where I work (a mid-sized law firm) and this was before the pandemic. Not just attorneys, but other staff too. We're so fucking short-staffed because no one is biting. My company bought the building we're in and the only people going in are the ones who need to get away from their homelife for some reason, or those that use the office as their only social outlet. Change is already here.

R113 - have you ever met young people? You really think they need to learn how to work by being trained in cubicle office culture? All during the pandemic and ongoing people were being hired and trained virtually unless they needed to be onsite for their jobs. Have you ever taken a Zoom-based courses or an online course? I mean, this is not new technology!

Young people already know software and technology they don't need training.

And really, if the company is hesitant about hiring someone because they have a manager who doesn't want to train for WFH, then that's the company's problem with that manager. Not sure what industry you're talking about, but it sounds like a management decision problem to me.

But no one wants to take a chance on new grads in this environment. They keep getting passed over.

R118 my company did its internship program with 28 interns 100% remotely for the past two summers. We hired several of them full-time.

I hired an entry level new grad in June. I’ve never met him in person but am training him the same way I would if we were sitting near each other in the office.

[quote] Young people already know software and technology they don't need training.

Except in basic English grammar and punctuation (its, not it's, Becka), social media boundaries (live-tweeting how much you hate your job again, Brandon?), comprehending that critiques over poor work is not "harassment" or a "trigger," figuring out that office behavior/work ethic precludes being glued to your phone, etc. etc.

[quote] Except in basic English grammar and punctuation

And then you went ahead and wrote the rest of your comment….like that?!?!! Haha

I’ve successfully onboarded new hires who had little to no experience. They are up and running in record time compared to pre-pandemic. They love WFH and it shows in their productivity and enthusiasm. We are moving to a “hybrid” model shortly and they are not happy about it. My prediction is that their quality of work will decrease when they are forced back. All this to keep the boomer CEO happy and content? Fuck him.

It really is the Boomers who are pushing this back to the office shit. They've always hated change and can't adapt. When they're finally gone from the workforce, American working life is going to be very different.

The problem, of course, is that the Boomers are going to hold on until the last one standing.

[quote] and wrote the rest of your comment….like that?!?!!

Like what, trolletta?

I’m only pining for the fjords.

R113 I know people as well! At our company we've been hiring and onboarding college grads virtually for the last year. Perhaps there is a lack of will, creativity, and competence if managers are unable to adapt to a new situation.

R123 The vast majority of boomers I know are not pining to return. Maybe the group who do could probably be labeled 'management' i would think the longer you've worked the less you would want to go back.

I wish you all would list what kind of work you're talking about. Do you all work in computer programming or remote assistance? Call centers? Data entry? Sales? Journalism? Advertising? Are they all individual jobs that don't require much collaboration? Anyone in a creative job where interacting with others actually spawns ideas?

A lot of these responses read like people who do simple computer-based work where they are usually in a cubicle alone anyway so no big difference if they do it from home. Others read like they probably only put in about three hours of work a day anyway and now are still doing their three hours and getting everything done but get to stay home and play video games or continue baking pandemic bread for the other five or six hours they are supposed to be working.

R127 Agreed. I have seen ages across the board that do not want to go back. Old people are tired of the office and younger people want the freedom. I think this is less a generation thing and more a Cluster B crazyfuck personality disorder thing.

R129 Actually 2 boomers told me that after a year plus of working from home they can't see themselves going back to their old routine which they did for 25-30 years.

It may not be a generational thing but the humans making these return strategies are mostly boomers. They cannot accept the fact that the majority do not want to return to the office. They can push it to their own detriment.

Boomers cannot move on or accept change.

r128 i'll bite.

I'm 52 years old, work as a Senior Loan Processor for the past 2 years (1 1/2 from home), and before that I worked in various office/administrative roles across several different sectors for over 25+ plus years, all in office.

Our branch of the company has gone completely paperless and remote (except for some poor sobs who feel the need for an "office environment") since the pandemic started, streamlined our processes and has won branch of the month several times for production.

I will NEVER go back. And actually, they'd have a hard time making the case for us to go back to in office since we already have several employees in different parts of the country working.

Oh, and I park my ass 7+ hours a day in front of the computer and do my damn job, while enjoying the comfort of not having to socialize (except by Team messages as needed) throughout the day, attend in-person meetings, eat what I want/when I want, have people constantly interrupt me and I can watch tv or listen to whatever music I want. I have an apartment where utilities are included in the rent, so no extra cost to me for utilities. The only pain in the ass is when it gets hot (no AC) and if the neighbors next door are doing construction (there was a roofing job going on for what seemed like weeks, but I think it's over). Not a slacker at all because I work from home.

And thank the good Gods above, we don't do our three times weekly meetings with Zoom, we use Free Conference Call.com.

No cut in pay, in fact, I expect a raise once the Performance Reviews we recently had are finalized.

You can do your job for seven hours while watching tv and eating whenever you want, R133?

Many people employed in customer service have lost their jobs or had to downgrade because businesses are closing. The OP sounds like the type of person I wouldn't want to meet while walking down the street. I hope he stays home. No matter what my personal feelings are regarding remote work, I understand that allowing businesses to reopen fully is what's best for most people.

Won’t somebody think of the Paneras?

I can understand that some people have valid reasons for wanting to go into the office to work, and hopefully they will be able to

But OP is right - the majority of people who can work from home want to keep doing it - and if they can, it should mean that the offices will be empty enough to allow those that do want to go in to do so safely, everyone wins

I'm happier than a pig in shit working from home - and I can have music while I work. Not to mention not having to commute

r134 i don't spend 7 hours eating, asshole. i just meant i don't need to clock out and take lunch and waste part of my day when i can just work through the entire day and be done when my 7/8 hours is done. Also, my job requires focus, so the tv is in the background as noise but is still interesting.

Also, i don't eat a lot during the day, it gets in the way of work. usually just a light snack at lunch, plus a lot of iced tea/La Croix/water.

More practically, comercial office spa e leases usually have 3 to 5 year terms. Now that it will be almost 2 years before many offices reopen, a lot of those leases are that much nearer their end and it's easier to contemplate the "What if we reduced our space substantially and carried on in some hybrid or just took the space for some people who need/want office space or some rotational schedule?"

The coincidence of potentially large savings in office space costs and evidence that working from home worked well, it's easier to say goodbye to the old model of asses in cube farm chairs. Or to reduce the leased space substantially

At $10k or $15k per employee for rent costs each year in some major cities, there's compelling reason to think against the old model.

r135 - i'm LOL'ing at your comment "is best what's for most people" that we should all en masse go back to working in offices when we've fully demonstrated that WFH WORKS and is cheaper for the employer who doesn't have to rent brick and mortar space, pay for all the utilities and paper and people are more productive. Shut your whore mouth. People are NOT going back if they have demonstrated for a year and a half they can work effectively from home. it doesn't make any sense. it's a SAVINGS for employers.

Bosses miss getting their asses kissed at the office, cause the people at home treat them like the snatches they are.

R128 - what the fuck do you care what people are doing at home after they've finished their work for the day? When I was working onsite full time and people finished their work early, the same amount of "screwing around online" occurred anyway. Ugh you sound like some persnickety middle management type whose job depends on being able to watch and hover over people constantly, but who does no real actual work beyond micromanaging and delegating tasks.

Apologies to R128 - I misread your comment as nitpicking about what people do at home. However, my comment stands with regard to those who *do* complain or wonder how much company time employees are wasting by WFH where they can't be closely monitored by stuffed shirts.

R128 - I work in a law office in litigation. We've been working seamlessly from home since the pandemic, and at least 1/2 of our office (mid-size, 200+ employees total) has been WFH off and on for almost 10 years now. This shift to WFH more often started about a decade ago with the new associate and paralegal hires, and spread to other roles. The person who handles our calendaring lives in West Virginia or thereabouts and has WFH for over 10 years.

Well R124 for a start, that entire comment should not be a single sentence and you didn’t use quotation marks for speech. Starting a sentence with an exception isn’t great either.

R140 My point was that those who are in the customer service industry will be hit the hardest. Not only that, but a lot of people, especially seniors, rely on customer service in their day to day lives. You can't just consider one sector of the economy, but the entire workforce. There is no doubt that working remotely has its advantages for certain people, but it's not an effective long term solution.

Younger professional workers (35 and under) are going to be key moving forward. Unlike their predecessors, they aren't encumbered by the office environment and WFH (actually remote work as well) appeals significantly to this demographic.

For better or worse, they expect flexibility in this regard. I know of several younger workers who managed to successfully negotiate working from another country recently. It's the wave of the future and we're not turning back. Agreed with the poster above who said that one day future generations will watch The Office and wonder why adulta subjected themselves to such BS.

And no, many jobs will not be outsourced. Sandeep in Mumbai (aka "Brad") and Imelda in Manila (ala "Melanie") are only good for limited functions. Agreed with the poster above that many professions still require licenses and certifications that overseas workers can't get. I'm an attorney and even in this relatively conservative, old-fashioned field, it is clear as day we will not be returning to the old normal.

Besides, one day AI will be doing a significant amount of work, which is only more reason to avoid expenses tied to brick and mortar work locations.

R146 if the customer service workers that support an unsustainable larger group for lunches etc it’s not reasonable or sustainable to keep the larger group unhappy so as to support a much smaller group of people that work in a support role to the much larger group. Also, that’s the way the service industry functions, they have to adapt to the changing requirements of their customers. What we’re not gonna do is keep every single office person slaved to a desk where they don’t want to be so that the Starbucks at the corner stays busy smh

[quote] Younger professional workers (35 and under) are going to be key moving forward. Unlike their predecessors, they aren't encumbered by the office environment and WFH (actually remote work as well) appeals significantly to this demographic. For better or worse, they expect flexibility in this regard.

Right, and unlike their predecessors they've also never known a world without email or blackberries and the expectation that you'll be reachable 24/7. If employers want everyone in the office 5 days a week then they need to go back the strict 9-5 that used to be the norm. Otherwise, they need to let people come and go a little more freely if they also want them constantly on call. Frankly, the fact that employers have gotten away with expecting people to be in the office for long hours and also reachable when they're away from the office for this long was a bit of a joke and badly in need of a correction.

[quote] You can do your job for seven hours while watching tv

I can usually binge watch a whole season of The Orifice during an 8 hour day. Never going back to work. WFH forever.

R150 what do you do? I am busy most of the time working on my pc.

Even one of the office busybodies I work with doesn't want to go back.

Actually, none of my coworkers do that I have discussed it with!

I never thought I'd miss the office, but I kind of do miss it. I certainly hope that post-pandemic we are required to go into the office only 1 or 2 days. I'd never want to go back to 5 days a week. But I think I'd enjoy a day or so a week--mainly because it's much easier doing strategy sessions in person.

Frankly, I suspect that companies are going to leverage remote work to slash salaries and benefits. So be careful what you wish for--I fear we're about to become a nation of contract workers with little benefit for full-time employment. But, maybe that's not such a bad thing for most people.

R153 is probably right. However, as a labor and employment attorney I foresee some litigation will correct gross inequities. There will always be the employee-friendly EEOC, NLRB, and FLRA---and plaintiffs' attorneys.

Besides, younger generations don't want to be tethered to the same company for 40+ hours a week, for 10-20-30 years, just to get some silly plaque. They've listened to the moaning and groaning of their parents and gay uncles on Datalounge in this thread. Office life is demoralizing.

After working for 30 years with 17 to go before 62, I'd gladly take a pay cut to work remotely. Only bronze handcuffs here.

R153 I agree companies will attempt that sort of leverage, but younger generations also don't have the loyalty of older generations of workers. They'll be "see ya!" when the next head hunter or job opportunity with a better offer comes along. The younger workforce is gaining more signficant leverage these days, and I'm here for it.

You can tell who are the middle managers on here. Having nobody to whip in a public setting really makes you sad.

I enjoy working from home because on Zoom calls I can critique the homes of my co-workers and other business associates. Most of them have taste that is absolute trash.

R157 But they can show you Madysyn and Brock abd Katelynne and Jordan. Their baybees and reasons for living. Oh and the dog too. Oh silly DH is burning lunch again. So much family time!

Meanwhile you're just a sad homo with fancy vases in the background.

I don't own a vase.

I don’t even wear pants or underwear for Zoom meetings. I just put on porn in the background and wank it. I think all my co-workers are doing the same. I never see any hands.

It does seem like rank and file-type workers want to continue working from home. Seems like it's the managers & supervisors who want a return to the office.

Wrong r161. Lots of managers and supervisors who actually have social lives and are not petty tyrants are just fine working from home.

[quote] What we’re not gonna do is keep every single office person slaved to a desk where they don’t want to be so that the Starbucks at the corner stays busy smh

Service workers comprise nearly 30 million people in the US. There is also labor and construction and teaching. All those jobs depend on interpersonal skills. Not only are those jobs important to the economy but to others well being. Many people rely on support because they are lacking technical skills or are too poor. You're position is very elitist.

R161 My Boomer-as-they-get boss finally embraced WFH. He told us he underreported our pre-pandemic WFH stats (2 days a week for most of us with one frau getting 3 because of her hypochondriac-turned-Munchausen tendencies) because he felt it would reflect poorly on our office in National's eyes.

Of course leaders at National are rah rah rah about being back in the office, bouncing ideas off walls, and going to lunch together!!!! They're the only ones excited about the office. Many were boasting of how they were still coming in to the office last year even while civic leaders and medical professionals were advocating people stay the fuck home, some thinking it was so cute of them to profess "I just like dressing up and going to the office." as if doing so in a pandemic was something to brag about.

I'm not so sure all of management is thrilled about having to return.

R163 "All those jobs depend on interpersonal skills"

Try going to a Starbucks or supermarket in any big city. Your need for a latte and a ring up is nothing but a hassle to them.

I've been ordering on mobile apps and using self-checkout for years. I'm better and faster at taking care of my business.

Oh and these are employees here in the Bay Area who have the benefit of progressive-driven top hourly wages in the country so spare me the "livable wage" argument.

Most of my social life pretty much includes primarily my mates from work. So I can't say I was very fond of working at home.

What happened to those "mates" when they weren't obligated to be around you all week? You should rethink your social life, R166?

We were all in quarantine, R167. None of us had any social life to speak of, everything was closed. Have you forgotten already?

But did they reach out to you via Zoom! and Facetime! and picking up the phone! Lots of ways to connect even during quarantime, remember? Did you all continue to be mates? Doesn't sound like it, which not is surprising for "work" mates...

I never even considered how lack of social conditioning will impact the next generation who already sees nothing wrong with hookup apps and selling their bodies online to the highest bidder.

People hooked up in bars and clubs all the time before apps.

[quote]HR is already trying to promote "team building get togethers" for the staff that include going out to lunch in randomly selected groups (for spontaneity!) and doing after-hours gatherings to "get to know each other better" and other such annoying crap because they want us to be " a family."

That's such bullshit line taken from an 80's HR handbook. When I hear that line, which is usually in public I wait quietly until they ask the room of there is any questions. Then when it's my time to speak I say "so we should think of ourselves as family and not employees right? Is that correct? Dose that mean on top of our salary you will be sharing all the profits like family?" It usually gets a laugh from the room, shuts them the fuck up and kills their buzz thinking they sold that bullshit to the minions.

[quote] It usually gets a laugh from the room

🙄🙄🙄🙄

You know your co-workers think you’re annoying AF, right? I can’t imagine how many eye rolls you get a day.

Actually R173, several came up to me later and thanked me. It's what they were thinking. No one buys that family bullshit. It's a job, stop trying to sell it as something else so you don't have to pay higher wages. You sound like a pissed off middle manager. Are you in HR by any chance?

A little inspiration for those "pining" for cubicle world:

[quote] There is also labor and construction and teaching

R163 Why would teachers lose their jobs because people are working from home? Also the entire service industry wouldn’t collapse because of it, it would just have to adjust a little. You’re (sic) position seems a little dumb.

Western New Yotk

Pining for the office? Lololol. The Times swings further to the right every day.

^doesn’t understand who pays the bills for the Democratic party

NYT? Pass.

“The Paneras” would be a great name for a Brooklyn comedy troupe.

I think a whole lot of people do actually miss the daily routine going to work provides.

R182, that's because a whole lot of people are either HR Cunts or Low-IQ Middle Management Petty Tyrants.

The rest of us know hell is other people. We work better when the rest of the world fucks off and leaves us to it.

Shocking that the "liberal" NYT would shill for the corporate elite.

R184 How is the article shilling for the corporate elite? If anything, remote working is the perfect excuse to lay off workers and cut salaries.

[quote]How is the article shilling for the corporate elite?

R185: I'm not R184, but the NYT has had at least a few recent articles of a similar "very concerned" tone that seem rather obviously to shoehorn a few quotes to a desired message of getting workers back in offices, and the chain reaction of lunch restaurants, expense account lunches, lawyers and accountants hiring floors of hotels to do annual or semi-annual hiring interviews, the drinks after work trade, etc.

[quote]If anything, remote working is the perfect excuse to lay off workers and cut salaries.

Except in the occasional short-term, how does it make sense for companies to lay off or fire workers? Money is made off the backs of workers after all, branding isn't quite everything. And surely cutting salaries is a move that comes back to bite the hand of the feeder in a market that has fallen from 10.2% unemployment in July 2020 to 5.2% unemployment in July 2021? There's a bit of a fuck you attitude toward segments of employers at the moment and they many are making at least a show of effort to retain people just now.

I don't see how remote working is "the perfect excuse to lay off workers and cut salaries," with the possible exception of some companies linking pay to pay scales for place of residence (note that if you work from home in an expensive location, this doesn't apply to you).

OP is a fucking idiot.

The article OP posted is fucking idiotic, not OP. Theres a difference

[quote] A Microsoft survey of more than 30,000 global workers showed that 41% of workers were considering quitting or changing professions this year, and a study from HR software company Personio of workers in the UK and Ireland showed 38% of those surveyed planned to quit in the next six months to a year. In the US alone, April saw more than four million people quit their jobs, according to a summary from the Department of Labor – the biggest spike on record.

[quote] In fact, the American retail sector has seen more recent resignations than any other industry. Just fewer than 650,000 retail workers quit in the month of April alone, according to data from the Labor Department

There are several problems here. One is obviously the economic impact on the service industry. The other problem is that employees have to adapt to learning new skills in order to work from home while still having to come to the office even for limited hours. Those with customer service experience or those who are relatively new to the workforce have little to no competitive advantage. The other thing that is mentioned in the article is that employees feeling like they are being treated like machines. How is switching to a remote model supposed to help with that? What will happen to a society where those workers will no longer even have to meet their boss in person? Do you think those workers will be considered more disposable? Hell yes. Has the gig economy provided sustainability for individuals, or is it more likely a stop-gap measure until people can find long-term employment? Ascribing the success of certain gig workers to career jobs is a mistake.

Ultimately the article makes the point that employees can now demand more from their employers because of the lack of safety measures due to the pandemic. However, there is a danger of the solution being worse than the problem. The pandemic is not going to rage on forever (hopefully).

[quote] The other problem is that employees have to adapt to learning new skills in order to work from home while still having to come to the office even for limited hours.

Lol the reach.

R185, Who benefits from boosting the narrative that the worker drones miss the rat race and being monitored?

Not the workers.

[quote] Who benefits from boosting the narrative that the worker drones miss the rat race and being monitored?

I guess it may benefits some of those who already employed. It doesn't benefit anyony seeking employment who have to compete with thousands of other applicants, all of whom require more than just basic technlogical knowledge.

^And it's funny that you mention people being monitored in an era where people are disqualified because of their social media posts and history.

LOL, who is getting an "office job" without the minimal computer skills needed to use zoom?

Training up a worker to work remotely in jobs where it's possible is minimal investment, especially compared to the overhead savings.

R194 Where there is minimal investment there is also minimal value. During the pandemic, you had people rage quitting because they felt they weren't being valued.

[quote]During the pandemic, you had people rage quitting because they felt they weren't being valued.

Yeah, mostly in the service industry. You know, those people who don't even have the option of working from home.

[quote]LOL, who is getting an "office job" without the minimal computer skills needed to use zoom?

The out-of-touch Boomers on here have their own ideas about things, which are not grounded in reality.

Nobody in the age range that is applying for office jobs in 2021 has poor computer skills.

R197, I work in a library and help people with computers and job applications all the time. You are wrong.

r198 we're talking about younger, professional people not the homeless shelter that is a library.

OP

You wouldn't recognize good journalism if it humped your sloppy hole on Friday and then broke up with you the next day.

R199, the homeless are not going on the computer to fill out job applications and print out resumes. They are too busy sleeping and overdosing in the bathroom. Oh, and you're an elitist piece of shit. An ignorant one, at that.

Trolletta R200, your pathetic failed trolling is laughably inept.

What the hell kind of jobs would people who use computers in a public library be applying for? Are they welfare-to-work types? I thought we were talking about white-collar professionals in the 20s-40s age range here, of course they would already have the tech skills needed for employment.

R203, why would we only be talking about white collar professionals between the ages of 20 and 40? What a stupid presumption. Let me guess, you are a white collar professional between the ages of 20 and 40, right? Never let it be said that Millennials aren't completely fucking self-focused.

Tons of people use computers in libraries to apply for jobs. Every job nowadays requires online applications and not everyone has wifi or their own computer. You really are out of touch, ignorant, self-absorbed, and elitist.

[quote]not everyone has wifi or their own computer.

Yeah, poors. This thread is about white collar professionals, WTF do you think this debate is for? These people have wifi, their own computers and skill sets.

R202

Well, you're awfully good at putting a lot of big words into one sentence so you can appear to be intelligent.

I take my hat off to you!

R204 Not to be elitist, but what non-white collar professionals go to the office? This article is really about them, sorry if that breaks some fragile illusion of inclusivity you are holding on to in this thread. Starbucks baristas and Target sales clerks go to "work" not the office, and no, they obviously do not WFH.

[quote]but what non-white collar professionals go to the office?

Or use computers at the fucking library?

The article in question is elitist pro-corporate horseshit about how white collar professionals miss the office.

These are not workers who are struggling to learn the basics of Zoom and VPNs.

Most white collar people I know don't miss the office. It's only the people who have no lives, petty tyrants, control freaks and other dysfuntional people that have already been discussed on this thread who miss it.

Going to the office is fun when you're in your 20s, especially if you're living in a big city and working at a company with a lot of other similarly situated 20something--it quickly becomes your social life and you hang out with your co-workers and their friends from college who work at similar jobs. It's how you meet people. You all go to lunch together and because you're 24 and living in NY or SF or DC, you don't have your own apartment, you're living with roommates.

That's the age when things like company bonding trips seem like worlds of fun because it means you get to hang out with all the people you;d be hanging out with anyway, only now you can get drunk on someone else's dime.

But then you hit your 30s and you move up the corporate ladder and you get your own place and you get into a serious relationship, get married, have kids, and that becomes your primary relationship and the forced socializing at the office feels like an imposition and the last thing you want to do is go for drinks with coworkers four nights a week and play on the office softball team and all that.

So a very long winded way of saying yes, recent grads may miss the office, but no one else does except for the types listed at R106. (Though I do suspect the more ambitious brown nosers are managing to brown nose via one-on-one Zooms and Slack.)

[quote]That's the age when things like company bonding trips seem like worlds of fun because it means you get to hang out with all the people you;d be hanging out with anyway, only now you can get drunk on someone else's dime.

Getting drunk in a professional/work-related situation is one of the worst things you can do.

[quote] but what non-white collar professionals go to the office?

What does race have to do with this, dumbass?

I’m with you R3, especially in separating home life from work life.

My company is limiting how many can come in on any given day until October, so I have been going into the office at least once a week. It’s great because my managers don’t come in at all, and neither do the vocal fried know-it-alls.

The only other employees I have run into, are ones I have been genuinely happy to see again.

R213 Please tell me that's sarcasm.

If not, do you know what a white-collar professional is, dumbass?

Please don’t bring race into this discussion. We don’t want it to devolve like other threads.

R211: purely my observation but of the people I work more closely with (20 to 25 of them), half to two/thirds have worked there for a few years to many; the smaller "half" or third are fresh grads who have worked no where else except as interns.

Overwhelmingly the fresh grad bunch want WFH. The established workers want it too, but are more resigned to some eventual expectation of a 1 or 2 day venture to the office each week. The new bunch would prefer to come in only in extraordinary situations: company-wide presentations, focused groups to set up new project goals or some other collaborative effort.

The only evidence I see of the younger crowd having an interest in office dynamics outside Zoom is that they are interested in everyone's name and who does what. ("Is that Sarah G. In the User Interface group?" to which the older more likely respond, "No idea, I don't pay attention to anyone's name if I don't work with them directly.")

The new bunch are entirely at ease with video meetings, no water cooler, and setting up projects with people in widespread locations. I don't have a sense that they miss the office because in my case few if them had been there for much time before Covid and many were hired without after without ever seeing our offices. They're okay distinguishing themselves (or not) remotely. They don't miss a workplace and many would rather not have one so that they needn't move to an expensive city to spend one day a week in a proper office

I remember my office would rent out a hotel auditorium for quarterly All Hands meetings and have the hotel cater the lunch. All that money wasted for what is now a Zoom meeting.

What do you expect OP? The New York Times is a Wall Street corporate mouthpiece.

R217-- it seems that you and your coworkers do not live in a major city and the young people you are talking about have zero desire to move to one.

I was referring to Before Times when people were already in the city and work was sort of an extension of college

OP, you struck a nerve. But for those arguing against wanting to go back to the office, can we at least agree that NOT ONE BUSINESS HAS IMPRESSED ME SINCE THE PANDEMIC.

It seems no employees are worried about doing a good job or even doing their job honorably.

Everyone — from court clerks to surgeons to third-party public-utility vendors to journalists — is fucking over me and everyone else ON PAPER! With no recourse....

So yeah, I wish we'd go back. But the world changed. And not for the better.

67 year old confirmed introvert here. Working from home is the greatest blessing I currently have in life. My productivity has increased exponentially. I have been working with computers since 1981. Being old does not mean being closed to the new.

Fortunately, my co-workers who need the company of others to work effectively now have that option.

There is truly no need to argue about it.

Some do and some don't, R220.

All lived in a major city where the project team is ostensibly based before Covid, though some were new enough that they were staying with college friends or some temporary arrangement while they settled in and could look in leisure for a place of their own.

A noisy two or three fled of those to more remote locations, living with friends or in relatives' vacation homes, waiting out a decision on what returning the the office would mean. Some have jumped location two or three times. The company is in the midst of acquisition by another, and the acquiring company has for some years moved fairly aggressively into letting commercial office leases expire and working from home as standard operations, but still it's an uncertain position of whether people want to move to their "work city" if that only means the rare big meeting or Day of Formal Collaboration. They want definite answers, and now, but for once it's not just HR or the CEO being cagey. "Back to the office" has been scheduled tentatively quite a few times, and definitely twice, postponed each time; leases have expired in that time, meaning that offices that do eventually reopen will be consolidated with closed offices, meaning that there won't be room for staff to come in 3x a week, and maybe not 2x, bit probably 1x...while the lease lasts and it looks like there's a reason to do it.

More common among the new-ish hires from the year pre-Covid and the fair number of hires during Covid, they waited to see what the general leanings of the company and the acquisition, then went ahead and took a chance and bought a house or apartment or took out a lease, taking in mind that the expectation to be in the office once a week for the near term, whenever that restarts.

What will Ginny in HR do when everyone is WFH and she can't corral anybody to attend Trans sensitivity seminars?

R224, Ginny in HR at my company is insisting that people be in the office for regular company updates. Having the odd team here and there going to the office at least allows our facilities staff to plan their seating and accommodate requests for suitable distancing, but our HR bitch wants entire departments to be inside a single meeting room for team updates which are mostly just presentations and not even interactive. Most of us are thinking "Bitch, we can watch a presentation remotely or from our desk. We don't need to be inside a crowded meeting room with no one wearing masks."

But no, the rancid cunt whores of HR won't relent. They are insisting that being in the office is good for employee morale. I hope lots of people fall ill, sue these bitch cunts in HR, and have them sent to prison for criminal negligence. The next time some terrorists want to attack us we will gladly send them our HR cunts as a sacrifice, for the terrorists to do with as they please.

Ginnys in HR are frustrated, since sexual harassment and rude behavior are limited to Zoom meetings.

r225 I am in the same dilemma with the HR cunts in my office. God, how I hate them.