Were Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring fucking before they were murdered?

Sharon was 8 and half months pregnant. She had just returned from London two weeks before murders. Jay was in love with her and her family were very close to him.

Who names themselves after a Florida city?

The Jay Sebring doc suggested Sharon was leaving Roman for Jay. Jay’s 127 year old lawyer claimed Sharon had him draw up the papers. I don’t know.

Why did Thomas John Kummer change his name to Jay Sebring?

Jay was a hero that night. He died protecting Sharon

Looks like he had a thick cut dick.

Were Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring fucking? NO.

R6 well he was a white American man.

Never realized how much Jay Sebring looked Sharon Tate's husband, Roman Polanski.

R9 OUATIH sort of acknowledges that by saying Sharon has a type

[quote] OUATIH sort of acknowledges that by saying Sharon has a type

IIRC, the description was “creative men who look like boys”

DAMN, that’s a nice VPL. Poor guy.

A guy named Christopher Jones claimed to have been having an affair with Tate.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Apparently he wasn't a very nice guy.

[quote]Olivia Hussey claims she was raped by her ex-boyfriend actor Christopher Jones when they moved into the house where Sharon Tate and her unborn child were murdered by the Manson family

That’s sad r15. But I bet he never slept with Tate. Probably just wanted some attention.

Is he wearing a ankh necklace to accessorize hose tighty whities?

Is he wearing a ankh necklace to accessorize hose tighty whities?

Is he wearing a ankh necklace to accessorize those tighty whities?

Nice VPL….whether he know what to do with it, who knows?

Sorry. I was trying to correct it and failed miserably.

According to the "You Must Remember This" podcast, Sebring was very into BDSM which Tate found distasteful and led to their split. By all accounts, he was totally in love with her.

Ironically, her relationship with Roman was emotional bondage and submission, as he strung her along while also fucking every other woman he could.

The land 10050 was built on had to be cursed. The French actress who originally had it built was said to have heard strange sounds and seen ghostly figures in the living room, especially around the fireplace. The owner Altobelli never could keep a tenant in it, even before the murders.

You couldn't have paid me to live in the Cielo Drive house after the murders. Or the Labianca house,

I saw one of those cheesy ghosthunters documentaries once that did some kind of ectoplasmic scan of the house near the Tate house, and apparently the paranormal vibes or whatever were off the charts. That whole neighborhood is creepy. I went up to Cielo Drive during a vacation in LA once but turned around fairly quickly. Really bad feeling there.

The haunted house near the former site of Cielo Drive belongs to David Oman. He's experienced constant paranormal activity in his house and has claimed to have seen the ghosts of Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring. Wonder why they aren't haunting the old 10050 property?

10066 Cielo Drive, built on the old 10050 lot after the original house was torn down, is ugly as hell and takes up most of the property. I wouldn't want to haunt it either.

R26 OP here, I went up to Cielo Drive in 2018 during one of my annual visits of LA (haven’t been back since 2019) and I felt they power/presence around me. Awful vibes. Very creepy. Like it felt someone was watching me.

I said I would never go back there. Idk how people live there.

If they were, she was the top & he was a bossy bottom.

Does anyone know anything about the lavender ribbons? This sis a serious question.

Exactly, OP. Cielo Drive has a dark and heavy presence of hostile surveillance. I wonder if it was like that even before the murders.

Sharon was date-raped as a teenager, and it permanently affected her confidence and self-esteem. She may have found small, boyish men less threatening and thus more attractive. You can tell from the picture that Jay is the same height she is, and Sharon was only about 5'6.

[quote]during one of my annual visits of LA

I'm not ignoring the rest of your post R26, but I'd love to spend the summer in LA when I have the time and, in the midst of all this madness, you just reminded me of that!

Roman wasn’t much taller either

All of Hollywood wanted (or still wants) to be associated with Sharon Tate or Jay Sebring or the Manson family. I suppose there's a kind of glamour to it, or so some seem to think. All kinds of stories about supposedly being asked over to Tate's that night and missing violent death by a hair by not coming by; Jerzy Kosinski, Robert Evans, Quincy Jones, Fiona Lewis (some C-list actress) ....ALL of them said they were supposed to have been at the house that night. Actually poor Sharon was in no mood for company at 8 and a half months pregnant and didn't even want the houseguests she had, the quarrelsome couple Abigail Folger and Voytek Frykowski, but being the nice person she was she couldn't bring herself to tell them to scram.

As for Christopher Jones, well, who knows. He's not exactly an admirable human being. He could well be lying. If he's not, it's shitty to talk about any affair he had with Tate now. At any rate, Hollywood types love to say they had something to do with Sharon Tate, or the Manson Family.

Sharon was quite smitten with Polanski (she had poor taste in men and liked dominant types). If she had an affair it was probably only because she was so fed up with Polanski's philandering. But in his memoir he said she gave him permission to cheat on her. He said she told him "I won't smother you," and that she knew his "style" and had "no intention of cramping it." So all throughout their marriage he was completely unfaithful to her. Poor Sharon.

As for Sharon and Jay Sebring there's no evident that ever suggested they had an affair while she was married to Polanski. Sebring did continue to lover though, that was certain. Reportedly his last words, before Tex Watson shot him, were "Let her sit down! Can't you see she's pregnant?"

R34 do it! I love LA. It’s my second favorite city, right behind my hometown of NYC. A lot of the LA natives who work service jobs like Uber etc. give me compliments and seem shocked by how kind/relaxed a person I am because I am born and raised NYC and they say most of us who go there are rude, or just don’t wanna be bothered. They say a lot of us bitch about LA while there too or seem impatient but I am so calm and nice to chat with. They knew I was NYC because I have a Brooklyn accent 😂

R34 also, it’s a great city. It’s just very big and spread out so you need a car or have to Uber a lot (I do the latter). Always shit to do and tons of beautiful areas, beautiful weather and gorgeous people all over. I love their bars and restaurants more than anywhere besides Chicago and Miami (yup, NYC isn’t on my top 5 for restaurants), and there are a shit ton of gay bars still (unlike NYC where they’re dying).

I miss LA a lot.

Sharon may have been okay with the infidelity, but she was reportedly very upset that he stayed in London to party instead of coming back to LA with her during the last months of her pregnancy. (Of course, that selfishness saved his life.) She also didn't like the fact that he completely turned off of her sexually while she was pregnant--he talked about not being attracted to pregnant Sharon in his autobiography.

Jay never stopped being in love with Sharon and seemed determined to wait out her marriage to Roman. Tarantino put those words in Steve McQueen's mouth in OaTiH: "[Jay] knows, sure as God made little green apples, that one of these days that Polish prick is gonna fuck things up. When he does, Jay intends to be there."

If you want to talk about bad timing, Abigail Folger had a plane reservation to fly to San Francisco on August 9 to stay with her mother for a while she figured some things out. Reportedly, she was ready to dump her druggie boyfriend and get her life together. Being a Folger, getting her life together would have been pretty darn easy.

Ten hours before she was supposed to get on the plane, she was murdered.

Vince Bugliosi told author Tom O'Nell that during the search of the home they found a film. It was of two men raping Sharon Tate, with Polanski watching, directing and filming. The film was put back where they found it before Roman got back to California. It's one of the reasons he was thought to be somehow involved, at first.

R25 r28 didn't Trent reznor / Nine Inch Nails build a recording studio on that property?

I think that's where he recorded that I WANT TO FUCK YOU LIKE AN ANIMAL song.

Reznor was the last tenant of 10050 in 1993. He put recording equipment in the living room and recorded The Downward Spiral there.

He moved out in December, and early the next year, the house was torn down.

He didn’t stay there long r43. Did he ever say why?

In Helter Skelter, Bugliosi said the tape was Sharon and Roman having sex. Reports of her debauchery have always been greatly exaggerated. Roman fucked everything that moved, but there's little evidence that Sharon was promiscuous before or after she married him.

I bought the book Helter Skelter for my soon to be Bro In Law. I haven’t read it. I’m too scared to! Lol.

According to this long, detailed Curbed article, R43, Reznor said the house had creepy vibes. He said he later regretted recording there, as it seemed disrespectful to the victims. However, since it was being torn down, he did take the front door (the one that had had 'pig' written in Sharon's blood on it) with him and install it in his New Orleans recording studio, so IDK how sincere he was about anything.

The Curbed article makes it clear that nobody stayed at Cielo Drive for long except for Altobelli, and that's only because he had to. He tried to sell the place for 20 years before finally dumping it to a developer for 400K below asking price.

Was her blood still on the door????

R13, Christopher Jones was married to Susan Strasberg from 1965 - 1968.

I remember Tori Amos gave an interview and she talked about staying at the house when Reznor was there. She tried to cook a turkey but it wouldn't cook because of "too many bad spirits."

Cielo Drive has dark energy. It’s a scary place. The rest of LA I walk around late etc. and feel fine. LA is very atmospheric and there is an ambience there like nowhere else, minus Cielo, which feels like you’re being stalked and watched at all times. Even in broad daylight with only you outside. It’s scary.

Not visibly, R49. It's still on the building in New Orleans, apparently.

At the time of the murders, Sharon was upset over Roman having had a recent fling with Michelle Phillips.

R45 right. And Tom O'Neill asked Vince to tell him something that had never been revealed before, off the record. Vince told him that it was a film of two men raping Sharon while Roman filmed.

Cielo Drive in late 1993, a few months before it was torn down. It seems like the house was never really updated for its entire existence: It's a total dump in 1993.

#40, if you want to talk about GOOD timing: those who visited that day- but left.

I'd have PTSD the rest of my life.

I have a hard time believing that, R55, but I suppose anything is possible. I could believe it was a consensual orgy before I could believe that Roman filmed men raping his wife and she stayed with him after, especially given her history of sexual abuse.

Sharon and Jay were former lovers.

R56 who is gonna update it? Didn’t it go years with no one in it? And when someone would move in they would leave fast?

The video was of Roman and her fucking. She wasn’t being raped

Altobelli owned it for 25 years, so I assume he would have been the one to update it. Painting the house a different color and redoing the interior might have helped move the property. As it was, it still looked eerily like it did in 1969.

Didn’t one of the people who left get stopped by Tex while they were parked in their car? Something stopped Tex from killing them.

[quote]I love LA. It’s my second favorite city, right behind my hometown of NYC

Yuck!

Maybe they left it as is for tourists. Or out of respect. Some people think like that.

During Jay Sebring's funeral service, some jerk got up and threw himself on the casket while wailing away. Alarmed by the outburst, a number of mourners who arrived packing heat drew their guns, including Steve McQueen.

Leaving aside their tragic fates, that is an incredibly unflattering photo in the OP of two very attractive people. And I know VPL can be fun, but that is just gross. I don't need to see every vein and wart, thanks.

Jay Sebring lived in another cursed LA house that once belonged to Jean Harlow's husband, who committed suicide there in the early 30s. Sharon had a creepy experience there in 1966:

[quote]Three years before their murders, the actress was staying alone in Sebring’s home on Eaton Drive. MGM executive Paul Bern, who had been married to Jean Harlow, had once owned the house. In 1932, Bern shot himself in the home, leaving nothing more than a cryptic suicide note. Harlow died mysteriously of kidney failure at only twenty-six years old five years later. Sebring believed the house to be haunted by both Bern and Harlow. On the evening Sharon Tate stayed alone in the house, she was awakened by what she described as a “creepy, little man” entering her room. He shuffled about as if he was searching for something, ignoring Tate’s presence. The frightened actress fled the room and leapt down the stairs where she saw another apparition. She described a bloody body tied to the railing with its throat slit. Unbeknownst to her at the time, it was a glimpse of what was to come.

That was such an untoned era.

Honey, lift some weights!

R67, If you look close, you can see a pee stain.

Altobelli sued Sharon's estate to recover money for the damage done to the house while Sharon and her companions were murdered (the Curbed article linked upthread talked about it). He later said it was just business. Doesn't sound like a sentimental or respectful guy.

In "Helter Skelter' the film R41 is referencing was said to be one of Polanski and Take "making love." In his memoir Polanski, who was intrigued with videotape, suggested he and Sharon make o tape of themselves having sex. He said Sharon was all for it and said "Fine! What characters should we play?" He said the making of the tape was frivolous, not lewd or exhibitionistic. He thought it would be amusing to watch the tape when they were old. Of course after the murders there were all these rumors of videotapes found at the house that showed Hollywood stars engaged in orgies and other debauchery. But those tapes didn't exist. It was more lies, like the ones that said Sharon was "the queen of the Hollywood orgy scene" and "a dabbler in the Satanic arts."

Sharon’s father sent him A letter r71, essentially sarcastic apology of “ we taught her better manners than that”

R67, Sebring had the thighs of a 12-year-old girl.

R68 I shouldn’t have read that!!! Now I’m terrified lmao

Most men looked normal then. All that over the top working out as a norm is a modern thing. Back then it was all about cardio etc. not bodybuilding

Roman may have been turned off by her changed body, but Sharon looked terrific even while nine months pregnant, far better than the bloated beings most very pregnant women turn into. If he was that skeeved by the mature female body, no wonder he went after teenage girls all through the 70s. It's also likely he'd have dumped Sharon as soon as she turned 30.

Your question is rather moot in August, 2021.

R58 Tom O'Neill is pretty careful not to lie. I believe it. It rings true.

Now, Bugliosi claimed that Sharon Tate was clearly being forced against her will. But I wonder if she was just acting, and they'd planned it all out beforehand.

That seems like a plausible explanation, R79, especially given the dark subjects Polanski liked to explore on film.

IMO, LA gets hotter every year. I'd rather not go there during the summer. Would rather go there when it's cooler.

Anyway, the area where OJ Simpson lived is really nice, Brentwood, LA. His old house has been demolished. It's a surprisingly leafy, understated neighborhood.

I go in May r81

Its usually in the 70s.

The rich in 1969 didnt live that much more lavishly than middle class people today. They had built in swimming pools, foreign cars, but the houses and grounds weren’t insanely large. They did have much more sex and drugs than the middle class though, and they flew all over the world. Those were the biggest differences. Air travel was very expensive back then and involved travel agencies.

[quote] That was such an untoned era. Honey, lift some weights!

Read the autopsy/police reports. People weighed very little in those days, especially men. I think Sebring weighed less that 130.

Cielo Drive was a rental, so if no one was living there, of course it was going to look like a dump. People would bring their own furniture, rugs, wall hangings when they moved in - until then it would be barely furnished and have cleaning supplies in it for house cleaners.

I’d take that “dump” any day.

PS - Sadie said Sharon was in bed in pajamas and Jay was sitting fully clothed on the end of the bed talking to Sharon when Sadie walked into the room.

Just checked - Sebring was 66.5” tall & weighed 122 lbs.

"However, since it was being torn down, he did take the front door (the one that had had 'pig' written in Sharon's blood on it) with him and install it in his New Orleans recording studio, so IDK how sincere he was about anything."

Reznor took the door that had "PIG" written on it in Sharon Tate's blood? What a truly sick fuck.

[quote] [A] story involving Reznor that appears in Manson’s 1998 autobiography, The Long Hard Road Out of Hell, resurfaced. In it, Manson claims he and Reznor sexually and physically assaulted an inebriated woman in the Nineties.

Reznor denies the allegations.

[quote] In a 2009 interview with Mojo, Reznor called his former protégé Manson “a dopey clown.”

Wow! Couple of really nice guys, friends!

Shows you how much a dick Roman Polanski is if he couldn't bring himself to make love to his beautiful wife as soon as her pregnancy started to show. Sharon remained gorgeous all through her pregnancy but I guess her swelling belly repulsed him. No doubt he found sexual satisfaction elsewhere. What a creep! Poor Sharon, to have been married to such an asshole.

Well, she chose him.

Christ you can tell his religion through those tighty-whities geez

Give Polanski a break, he's a Holocaust victim.

Marilyn Manson has sucked a lot of dick.

R84, Jay was also extremely short. Check him out on this 1963 "To Tell the Truth" appearance, where the other two contestants tower over him.

R89 that’s not uncommon. A lot of men get the “wandering eye” when the wife gets pregnant.

R95, And it continues after the baby is born, when the new mother is preoccupied and exhausted.

I have gladly serviced numerous hot young fathers over the years, who just weren't getting any at home from wifey.

I went up to Ciello drive circa 1994, when it was being torn down. As others have said, I got real bad vibes, and got out of there. But, I was in the middle of reading Helter Skelter, and I'm sure that's the reason I got those bad vibes.

Nine Inch Nails video filmed inside the Sharon Tate home.

I don't think this was ever released at the time. I think it was only finally put out two years ago.

Very interesting to see.

That swimsuit is so shear you can tell what religion he follows!

Who cares. Sharon was a child rapist like her hubby.

R100 do you have proof to back that up?

Anyone interested in more info on the Manson murders should listen to the Podcast: you must remember Manson

It’s very good

Seconding the recommendation on the podcast. It doesn't just tell you about the murders or about Manson: It paints a picture of the entire world of LA back in the late 60s. You learn about Manson, about his followers, about the victims, about the Hollywood scene in general. Excellent stuff.

Reznor claimed that he didn't know the history of the house when he initially rented it. But he recorded an album at 10050 that had tracks named "Piggy" and "March of the Pigs." He filmed a video there and took the front door that had been branded with Sharon's blood, then installed that door on his personal studio.

Fuck him and his 'remorse.' He knew exactly where he was and what he was doing.

R100 is a troll that shows up in every thread where Sharon is mentioned. Block and move on, guys.

Roman had a wandering eye before and during Sharon's pregnancy. Nothing would have changed once the baby was born. If she'd lived, they'd have been divorced within a couple of years. Remember, Sharon avoided telling Roman she was pregnant until it was too later for her to get a (then-illegal) abortion. She knew what he was and thought she could change him, a mistake many people make with their difficult spouse.

Jay's plan to be right there when the Polanski marriage imploded wasn't a bad idea except for the fact that it put him at Cielo Drive the night the Manson clan showed up.

R85, I agree Cielo Drive was beautiful, but everything was just the same as it had been when it was built in the 1940s. They never even changed the kitchen cabinets: When you see the pictures from the 40s, it's those same knotty pine cabinets that were still there in 1993. The living room still has the big, rough stone fireplace and creepy ceiling beams that Jay and Sharon were hung from during the murders.

That and the distinctive red color of the outside are probably why Altobelli couldn't move the property. He should have gone in after the murders and gut-renovated the place, then made some major cosmetic changes on the outside. That might have convinced a buyer to take a chance on the place for a good price. It's weird that, furniture aside, the house in 1993 was just like the house in 1969. You'd have expected even a non-murder rental house to be updated, especially in that location and price range. Altobelli must have been a cheap bastard.

The LaBianca house, which still exists, looks quite different on the outside today. Perhaps that's why it was able to be sold over the years.

Where can I get a swimsuit like Sebring's? It's cute.

Decorate a pair of shopworn tighty-whities with some form-accentuating ketchup stains, R108.

R107 oh but there are people out there who would be willing to pay top dollar to buy a house from the 1940s that was never updated.

American Apparel might have something like what Sebring’s wearing.

R55 How was it determined by the film that she was being raped? Was it consensual, acting . . .?

Let's face it. Roman Polanski was not attractive; Sharon Tate was extremely attractive, even by Hollywood standards. She married him to further her career. Did she deserve to die? Hell, no. But I don't understand why she'd want to have a baby by him.

R113 because she loved him????

They probably were at some point, it was widely known how faithful Roman was so would make sense for her to have Sebring around. He was quite handsome, they had a romantic relationship at one point atleast. He had to have been more appealing than the pocket Pole who knocked her up.

[quote] Anyone interested in more info on the Manson murders should listen to the Podcast: you must remember Manson

Is it another one of those “random murders by hippies to start a race war” bits of nonsense? Those murders weren’t random (except for Steven Parent), there were drugs/drug money involved. Why must this be erased? Nobody deserves to be murdered. (Not even Manson. State murder is morally wrong — sorry, but it is) Everybody behaves hysterically about the drug angle as “Blaming the victims for their own murders.” No - nobody thinks people should be butchered for pissing off a violent, ex-con, hardened criminal gang leader who kept his female followers (and Tex, it seems) constantly drugged and filled their heads with violent, murderous woo woo. Did anyone wonder where Charlie got all the money to keep those followers in mescaline & acid, which seemed to be his favorite drugs to give other people?

Note Charlie didn’t give his girls speed, which might’ve caused them to be more attentive to what was going on around them, make them nervous & paranoid and would finally addict them, which would require more & more drugs . He preferred hallucinogens, which distorted reality and weren't addictive. Tripping sex workers were easier to handle than heroin or speed addicted girls.

He didn’t tell females what his business was. He believed females were inferior and were only put on earth to obey and serve men. Sadie, Leslie, Squeaky - none of them provided information about the car theft ring, or Charlie shooting a rival drug dealer he claimed was a Black Panther, or how to clean the guns that were around the ranch, or how to hot wire & dissemble cars. They were all about “Charlie is Jesus, he told me when he gave me acid and had sex with me.”

It was males who gave that kind of information to the prosecution and it was pretty much ignored as the prosecution focused on Helter Skelter. But Paul Watkins, Danny DeCarlo, Bruce Davis and Bobby Beausoleil gave some interesting information about the criminal activity regarding drug deals, auto theft, weapons, copycat killings and Manson giving everyone drugs at orgies while keeping control of himself. The prosecution focused on the girls because they were so devoted to Charlie. Charlie’s nonsense fictions would gain the prosecution a conviction while distracting from other possible criminal aspects of the case.

To this day the murders are presented as “senseless.” People ask themselves “Why would anyone do such monstrous things for some stupid story about living underground in the desert and taking over the world in dune buggies after they start a race war? That doesn’t make sense.”

Exactly.

The podcast focuses on the Hollywood angle, as it is a history of Tinseltown podcast. The drugs are certainly discussed, as is the race war theory, but the podcast mostly takes the attitude that Charlie killed the people at Cielo Drive because they were symbolic of the Hollywood system that had rejected him. He knew Terry Melcher, the well-connected record producer who wouldn't give Charlie a recording contract, no longer lived at 10050. He didn't really care who lived there at the time: They were just undifferentiated objects of his rage.

Sharon and Jay were engaged at one point. It was definitely a very close relationship. Roman was so odd about his relationships, he may have allowed Jay into his social circle precisely so Sharon would have an obvious second-husband candidate. That way, Roman could be neatly shut of her once he was tired of the marriage and not have to pay a lot of alimony.

How much did a haircut cost in the 1960s? They’re all so bowled over by the $25 haircut in that To Tell the Truth episode.

That would be a couple of hundred dollars in today's money. Remember, this is a time when most men went to the barber. The idea of visiting a high-end salon or having a trained stylist come to your home was an alien concept which Jay made de rigueur for the Hollywood elite.

Manson may have had a few motives for the murders at Cielo Drive, but I do believe one motive was plain jealousy and revenge. Manson had been there when producer Terry Melcher (son of Doris Day) lived there. Melcher turned down Manson's music.

[quote] From May 1966 to January 1969, the Cielo Drive house was occupied by Terry Melcher and Candice Bergen. Melcher had a close relationship with The Beach Boys, particularly with drummer Dennis Wilson, who once picked up two hitchhikers that turned out to be Manson followers Ella Jo Bailey and Patricia Krenwinkel. That’s how Charles Manson first ended up on Cielo Drive, trying to persuade Melcher to give him an audition (Manson was an aspiring musician). The producer was not impressed with Manson’s work, presumably triggering the cult leader’s relentless rage and leading to the dreadful events of August 8.

I don't understand why Roman married Sharon to begin with, and apparently, it was his idea. She wasn't pregnant when they married or anything. He must have had some feelings for her, but his childhood traumas and an endless supply of willing starlets made it impossible for him to fully commit to any woman at that point.

It's odd that Manson didn't just go kill Melcher. He knew that Melcher was living in Malibu and knew the exact house. In her autobiography, Bergen talks about some moved furniture and missing objects from the beach house in Malibu. She strongly suspects it was creepy crawled by the Manson clan.

Men like to get married even if they intend to fuck around with others. Polanski knew he was unattractive and Sharon Tate was a trophy wife.

R116 It was the LSD that made his followers so malleable in his sociopath hands. Also having been quite into hallucinogens myself I know just how much the perception of my reality changed, and that was without an agenda wielding criminally insane racist attempting to brainwash and controll everyone and everything around them.

A cult is a cult, and anything can make sense with enough distortion of perception. I cant think of one cult that hasn't used criminal behavior to 'succeed' for the sake of the cause and their leadership.

Were the LaBiancas selling more than just groceries?

I'd also recommend Mary Harron's recent film Charlie Says, which is based on a book written by a graduate student who worked extensively with the Manson girls (Leslie, Patricia, and Susan) after they were sentenced to life in prison. It shows the life they were living at Spahn Ranch and how Charlie manipulated and brainwashed his followers. It's free on Netflix right now.

There are suggestions that the LaBiancas had organized crime ties.

Oh shut up about Manson just getting revenge because he didn’t get a record deal. If that were the case he would have had numerous people killed on other nights, not involved in Hollywood too. Please. It wasn’t a one time thing.

Tex Watson has since admitted that he finished off every single one of the Tate and LaBianca victims. The drug-addled, compliant Manson girls just weren't successful killers. Especially Leslie, who could only be convinced to stab Mrs. LaBianca after the lady was dead. Susan and Patricia may have gotten a few stabs in, but Tex is the one who did most of the fatal damage. So Charlie really wasn't that good at training his young girls into killers. But man, did Bugliosi and the media make hay of the idea that he COULD.

I was always amazed at how well Manson brainfucked Watson, who went from a clean-cut college kid to a drug-addled killer. Then I read in one of the Manson books a few months ago that Tex suffered a traumatic head injury a few months before the murders. After that, his personality completely changed. Had that not happened. Charlie might not have been able to get his followers to successfully murder anybody.

False. The girls DID kill too.

Calm down, R128. As R121 points out, there were a lot of different motives for the murders. Charlie wasn't thinking like a fully rational person, and his followers certainly weren't. There probably was a drug connection, and he was also trying to hold on to his followers, who were becoming disillusioned that Helter Skelter hadn't happened yet. He definitely hated Terry Melcher and the Hollywood establishment. Also, he wanted money: Tex and the girls were supposed to strip the house of valuables but didn't. Manson was an ex-con fringe guru living in total poverty on the edge of the desert, not some evil mastermind.

Or he was just evil r131. Some people are just evil. Let’s stop trying to make excuses for him. That’s some weird shit.

We'll never know exactly what happened on those two nights. But it's interesting that a clean, sober, born-again Watson has been willing to confess to finishing off all of the Tate-LaBianca victims, including pregnant Sharon Tate.

Susan, Patricia, and Leslie, even if they didn't strike any fatal blows, are definitely just as guilty as Tex from a legal perspective, as they aided and abetted.

Explanations are not the same as excuses. Manson was a psychopath who needed to be locked up for the rest of his life. But the thread has brought up the idea of WHY the murders were committed, and my post was speaking to that. To say someone is 'just plain evil' is not only simplistic, it makes for really boring conversation.

But it’s also honest. Some people ARE evil.

Wasn’t he gay?

One of Manson's early serious offenses was for raping a boy in the prison showers. He seemed to only fuck women when out of prison, though.

Well he only has access to boys in prison. That’s why.

But it's the figuring out why people did the evil things they did that I find interesting, R135. If you don't, fair enough, but figuring out the whys makes for a much more interesting thread.

R166 thinks he's fucking brilliant. He isn't. He's a wacko conspiracy theorist.

The You Must Remember This podcast on the Manson murders is brilliant.

Was Helter Skelter (the coming race war Manson used to foretell as a means to keep his followers in line) the real motive for the killings? No. Manson, in his twisted head, ordered the killings in hopes that it would make authorities believe they had wrongfully imprisoned Bobby Beausoli (who was fucking HOT.) In other words he wanted to make them think that the same person who killed Gary Hinman also killed Sharon Tate and her friends, and Leno and Rosemary LaBianca. Charlie's hope was that they'd "realize" they'd made a mistake arresting Bobby, and release him.

Vince Bugliosi thought the jury was more apt to buy the Helter Skelter theory. And, of course, it got him his conviction.

People who get into talking about ghosts and spooky stuff tend to overlook all of the awesome science that has emerged in past 20 years that help explain phenomena like this

There are frequencies created by rocks/stone that create the feeling of being in the presence of the supernatural.

And if you come home and are viscerally convinced that there are ghosts in your house, get the fuck out immediately and call the gas company. It's one of the best ways to identify a potentially fatal gas leak. If you feel the presence of ghosts and go to bed, there's a good chance you won't wake up.

According to the podcast cited above, Roman never wanted children and Sharon was on birth control pills during their marriage, but she got pregnant anyway.

She waited to tell Roman until she was beyond the point of a legal abortion, yet she confided in Sebring before then.

I saw "Don't Make Waves" when it was first released in 1967 and even though I was an already practicing 15-year-old gayling, when Sharon Tate first came on the screen, she took my breath away.

I don't know why they didn't just call Elizabeth Montgomery and her husband when the Manson group showed up. I've read they only lived 1.5 miles away.

Thanks, R140. Now we have to wait for another 15 posts to see what you were crapping yourself about.

Tex is more evil than Manson

Odd how few pictures of folgers there are. I get she was not a star but still.

Abigail Folger was just an average citizen. I guess that's why there have never been many photos of her around. Same goes for Frykowski, and Steven Parent, and the LaBiancas. They were not celebrities, there was not as much interest in them as there was for the gorgeous movie star and the celebrity hairdresser.

Tex was not "more evilL than Manson. No one was more evil than Manson. As serial killers go, he's among the worst, if not THE worst.

The house hasn't existed for thirty years and before that the gates were locked and no one could approach, so how did some of the posters get close enough to feel bad vibes? It's all in their minds.

I took a detour up Benedict Canyon the last time that I was in LA, looking for Cielo Drive. When I eventually found the cul de sac (sharp unmarked left off Cielo) I felt no vibes, and I was hoping to, being a Manson murders maven, if there’s such a thing. I was surprised at how it wasn’t as remote and isolated as expected - left off Sunset, left off Benedict Canyon Drive then sharp left off Cielo. It looked like a lovely neighbourhood in which I could imagine myself living.

I was much more spooked checking out Falcon’s Lair - Rudolph Valentino’s and then Doris Duke’s old place, on the opposite side of Cielo from the murder house. It’s still there and definitely had an atmosphere of faded fabulousness.

I’ve told this before but later that day we ended up in Los Feliz, looking for our AirBnB, pulled over to check directions and realised that we were in Waverly Drive, right outside the LaBianca house. Still recognisable with the steeply curved driveway. Now that was a spooky coincidence!

Polanski's mother was pregnant when she was sent to the gas chamber. He had issues.

R149 we said we drove up Cielo Drive. We never said we went to that house. Stupid.

Learn to read.

Whether or not Tex Watson claimed to finish off every single one of the victims, Patricia Krenwinkle said on camera in a Diane Sawyer ABC interview called "The Manson Women" that while Tex chased Voytek Frykowski onto the lawn and was killing him, she chased down Abigail Folger (both Frykowski and Folger panicked after Watson shot Jay Sebring and ran outside the house to try and escape). She said she kept stabbing her over and over, thinking "okay, okay, if I keep doing this it will stop" (whatever that means) and at some point Abigail Folger said "please stop, I'm dead already."

Linda Kasabian also said in a more recent (but still several years ago) interview that after they had all gotten back in the car Patricia Krenwinkle kept complaining on the drive back that her hand hurt, that she had injured her wrist after hitting Folger's chest bone with the knife. So maybe Watson went around and shot or stabbed everyone some more, but it certainly sounded like Krenwinkle killed Abigail Folger.

Jay had a nice cock.

Amazing how much discussion this murder has generated so many years later.

R154, With a very prominent mushroom head.

[quote]She said she kept stabbing her over and over, thinking "okay, okay, if I keep doing this it will stop" (whatever that means) and at some point Abigail Folger said "please stop, I'm dead already."

I remember hearing that in an interview; as a person that nearly faints when I cut my fingers with a knife when cooking, I can't imagine the horrid pain of being stabbed to death.

The paranormal posts are so stupid, grow up! Regarding Jay, despite the fact that they dated, he was a closeted hairdresser. So, no, they weren’t fucking after their relationship. She dated him after an abusive relationship, so (as someone mentioned earlier) I think she sought him out because he was non threatening. Not sure what she was thinking marrying Polanski, though many people indicated they were on the precipice of divorce.

I think Jay stayed close to Sharon because they were very close friends AND business-wise, she had a lot of Hollywood friends and she was a major client of his. He did die protecting her, which breaks my heart every time I think about it.

Abigail Folger came from a very rich and socially prominent family that still holds quite a bit of political sway, particularly in California. It's been rumored that the main reason none of those directly involved in the Tate-LaBianca murders has ever been released is due to quiet political pressure from the Folgers. The efforts of the Tate family have garnered a lot more press, but families like the Folgers don't want press--they want results.

It's also been rumored that the Folger family has made it clear that any media presentations of the murders, whether books, documentaries, films, etc. need to keep Abigail's presence to a minimum. That could very well be why, in addition to her non-celebrity status, that you never hear much about Abigail. Her father held a lot of sway when he was alive, and now it's her brother.

Ironically, though Sharon Tate has gotten all of the publicity over the years and is the face of the murders, it's quite possibly Abigail who is the real reason that the Manson murderers will never know freedom again. Even when she was dying of brain cancer, Susan Atkins wasn't given compassionate release. John Waters can shill for Leslie Van Houten all he likes, but she isn't ever getting out.

Warren Beatty's lothario hairdresser in Shampoo was based on Jay Sebring, who was a personal friend of Beatty's. Jay may have swung both ways, but he definitely liked women. He adored Sharon and would happily have married her if she hadn't left him for Polanski. If she had stayed with Jay, neither of them would have been at Cielo Drive that night. Somebody else would have been murdered by the Manson clan, maybe Olivia Hussey or one of the other celebrities who wanted the house around that time.

R158, If you're inferring that Jay was a closeted gay man, where is your proof? If you watched the documentary, it was clear he was into fucking females. I had no idea until the documentary that he had a long standing relationship with Barbara Luna, who later married Doug McClure.

Sharon was drawn to abusive men, Jay being an exception. Before she got involved with Jay, she was dating a French actor who beat the shit out of her. In addition to a certain sexual incompatibility (she didn't like BDSM), the problem with Jay might have been that he treated her too well. If you have low self-esteem as Sharon clearly did, it can be hard to accept kind treatment.

If she'd lived a little longer, Sharon might have wised up, dumped Roman, and found herself a partner who would treat her right. Sadly, she never got that chance.

I think what captivated people about the murders was the apparent randomness of it, coupled with the prominent and the famous. I think back then we thought of the wealthy, famous Hollywood types as untouchable. We knew little about their private lives and they all seemed slightly out of reach, at least to the general public. The kind of tabloid rags, social media, camera phones, etc. none of that existed. So the public reaction was damn, if something like this could happen to them, it could happen to anyone.

And of course it also changed the public perception of Hippies. Before that, Hippies were about peace and love and no more wars. Drop out, drop acid. Hippies were not seen as sinister until Charlie Manson and his cult of young followers. But his motive, according to other reports I read, was vengeance against the Beach Boys and Terry Melcher, the wannabe music producer, and son of Doris Day. Apparently he has been to that house several times when the Beach Boys rented it, and he was trying to peddle his songs. They kept him around for a very short time, but then dumped him because his music was shit. In his psycho mind he was enraged at being dissed. But he also always harbored resentment against the wealthy. I remember having the paperback of Helter Skelter, one summer, back in the day and reading it repeatedly until it fell apart. It was both fascinating and scary.

Jay was straight.

It blows my mind that people will claim he was gay because he was a hairdresser. It was a profession that made his rich.

I would also add to that R163, the macabre nature of the killings but also the Polanski/Rosemary's Baby connection. My mom said that before anyone had any idea of the whole Helter Skelter thing (which seemed completely unbelievable at first), people were convinced that Polanki/Tate were into some weird shit & this is what comes of living that kind of lifestyle.

I do think that's one result of all this "true crime" TV/fascination genre is that it often illustrates the randomness of crime, instead of letting people believe that the victims somehow brought this terrible fate on themselves.

There was a Time magazine article that came out right after the murders that pushed the Rosemary's Baby/Roman and Sharon as weirdos angle.

[quote] But his motive, according to other reports I read, was vengeance against the Beach Boys and Terry Melcher, the wannabe music producer, and son of Doris Day. Apparently he has been to that house several times when the Beach Boys rented it, and he was trying to peddle his songs.

All of this is wrong.

Manson knew Melcher no longer lived at Cielo. Rudy Altobelli told him so and Candace Bergen believed Manson stole a telescope from the Malibu house they moved to after leaving Cielo. So Manson knew Melcher was not in the Cielo house and he knew where Melcher was living in Malibu

Melcher wasn’t a “wannabe” music producer. He was a music producer

The Beach Boys had nothing to do with Cielo drive and Manson knew it. Manson lived with Dennis Wilson at one point and was his drug dealer. Wilson sold the house to get rid of him. If any Beach Boy was harmed or killed, the first suspect would have been Charles Manson and Manson knew it.

By all means, don’t read the book that was posted for free upthread that gives all these details. Just wing it.

I could be wrong - don't yell at me - but Manson did choose the house because he was familiar with the layout, no?

Manson knew the Cielo house, but the Waverly Drive house was chosen because it was near a house where Manson family members had attended a party not too long ago. Linda Kasabian said that after they left Waverly Drive, Manson drove them around randomly looking for more victims. They ended up near the beach and she mentioned an actor she knew who lived in a nearby apartment, and Manson wanted her to knock on the actor's door and then stab him to death when he answered. Linda did knock on a randomdoor, but it wasn't the actor's place and she quickly apologized and left. God only knows what would have happened to that person if Susan or Patricia or Squeaky had knocked.

Manson had a lot of motives but no real solid plan. His idiot followers, devoted as they were, fucked up his instructions all the time. He told them to visit several houses in the hills and kill people the night of the Tate murders: They didn't. He told them to steal everything of value that they found: They forgot. He told them to kill everyone on the properties they entered: They neglected the guest house, and the caretaker lived. He told them to make the scene gruesome and striking: It was gruesome, but they panicked and left too soon. One book mentions that Charlie Manson actually went back to the Tate house in the early hours of the morning and staged the murder scene a bit more before leaving.

Manson was evil and had a certain native intelligence and cunning, but he was a low-life with little education and no real understanding of the world beyond the criminal world. Living in a time and place when societal barriers were permeable in a way they'd never be again, he could attract successful people like Wilson and Melcher with his drugs and girls, but his antisocial behavior inevitably alienated them. The couple of times he actually got into a professional recording studio to make a demo, he flipped out under the pressure and one time pulled a knife on a studio tech. That's why, even though he had a little musical talent and a freaky charisma, he could never turn his contacts into a real career in music.

All he could do is scare the shit out of the entire city with a series of mostly random and totally pointless murders. He was an evil, unstable, ignorant loser.

R169 good summation. Manson was given way too “credit” for his cunning behavior. He couldn’t function in normal society

Manson, IIRC, was also a good ten years older than his followers. I think he was 30 or so; they were all 19 to early 20s. He had been in prison, mother was a prostitute, and he was street smart. That ten-year age difference, at that age, made a huge difference in influence, experience, etc.

I wouldn’t let him near me—those feet!

It's important to remember that Charlie started out as a thief and a pimp. He used drugs and his pimping skills to turn his stable of girls out as prostitutes (not for money but for influence with people like Melcher, for attracting male followers, and for support from biker gang the Straight Satans). He called them followers but they were really just his whores, and he used the same will-breaking tactics that pimps do: find a girl with low self-esteem and daddy issues, make her feel beautiful and special, combine that with drugs and periodic abuse, and after a while she'll do anything for you.

He was good at pimping out his girls, especially considering that he only had two truly pretty ones (Leslie and Ouisch), but he was shitty at just about everything else.

Manson was 35 at the time of the Tate murders, nearly twice the age of some of his followers.

You don’t need an education to know and understand the world. Actually, most hustlers know the world a lot better than someone whose education came from a book.

Yep, Charlie understood the world so well that he spent most of his life in prison and even begged prison authorities not to parole him in 1967. A real world-beater, that one.

I've seen horses less endowed than Jay.

R176 that’s because he was a criminal.

You may be self-educated, and good for you if you are. But Charlie Manson was ignorant of everything but grifting.

R150 Falcon's Lair was bulldozed in 2006. All that remains are the stable building and garage which had been converted into a guest house by Doris Duke.

Jay Sebring would have ended up incredibly wealthy if he'd lived. He was getting into marketing his own line of hair products, and you can make bank from that. Once Sharon finally admitted to herself that Roman was a total shit and divorced him, AND realized she was never going to make it big as an actress (she was beautiful but completely untalented), she'd have married Jay and been the 70s/80s/90s equivalent of a Real Housewife.

Jay already was getting paid well.

10050 probably would have been bulldozed even if horrible murders hadn't happened there. It's a gorgeous piece of property, and 10050 was way too small for today's celebrities.

Was Sebring the model for Warren Beatty's character in Shampoo?

R184 yes.

Yep, he was. Beatty was originally going to give the movie an ending similar to the Manson murders, but he decided instead to go with the political theme. He said that he thought the real end of the 60s dream wasn't the Manson murders but the election of Nixon.

What book, R167? I just went back through the thread and couldn't find a link to a book.

"The Manson Family Coloring Book", Rose.

There are hints of the Manson murders all through Shampoo. Including Goldie Hawn saying she keeps hearing strange noises outside her house. The murders hang over that movie like a subliminal specter.

I think if Sharon had lived, she would've been Krystle on Dynasty.

I think Tex Watson claimed he was the one who really did all the killings in order to make it seem like he was being completely truthful and remorseful, thus making him a good candidate for parole. Of course the Manson girls would not contradict him because his taking the blame made THEM look less culpable, maybe making their chances for parole better. But they were all murderers, all of them eagerly and willingly cut up a bunch of strangers randomly. They were not on drugs at the time. All of them are pure evil.

R189 DIdn't Dennis Wilson believe the Manson family was watching his home for awhile?

R24 The land that 10050 was built on was not cursed. Mark Lindsay (of Paul Revere and the Raiders), on the other hand, may have been. He was housemates with Terry Melcher (who produced Paul Revere and the Raiders records) and Candace Bergen at Cielo Drive prior to Polanski and Tate renting the house. After moving to another house he decided it was a little small and he needed more work space/ guest space so he rented an additional house down the street. Lindsay eventually gave up the lease on the house down the street, but the next tenants were the victims of the brutal Eddie Nash/ John Holmes Wonderland Murders.

Don't rent to Mark Lindsay. Also, don't steal from drug dealers. Neither ends well.

No, Dennis randomly picked up some Manson girls hitchhiking. The introduced him to Charlie, and Dennis was enchanted. He really thought Manson was talented, and that his philosophy was sound.

Eventually, Dennis got tired of all of them. He moved out of his house, and left it to his business manager to evict the Manson family.

[quote] even begged prison authorities not to parole him in 1967.

Who knew knew better in that situation? Manson did.

Some of the ghost shows went to the new house that was built and they played a tape where you could hear people screaming. Not sure if its real or fake but that's what they showed.

[quote] Jay already was getting paid well

He had almost no money in the bank

[quote] Not sure if its real or fake but that's what they showed.

Well it must be true because you saw it on tv and they had a tape!

After many years, I attempted to reread "Helter Skelter", but was unable to get very far, due to Bugliosi's unholy and constant overuse of the exclamation point, like " Then, Charlie told the Judge to go fuck himself!" or "Sadie actually bragged about her crimes to her cellmates!"

Ugggh.

Also, I really believe Dennis Wilson's (and erstwhile producer Gregg Jakobson's (sic) involvement - were basically limited to the opportunity to get to fuck the incredibly cute 15/16 year old cult-member, Ruth Ann Moorehouse. Charlie got a lot of shit taken care of by peddling her little pussy all over Los Angeles

I read "Helter Skelter." I don't remember any excessive use of exclamation points.

Ruth Ann Moorehouse attempted to kill a Family member named Barbara Hoyt, who was going to testify in the murder trial. She gave Hoyt a hamburger laced with ten tabs of acid. Luckily Hoyt survived the overdose and lived to testify. Moorehouse never did a day of jail time for the murder attempt. She was evidently quite eager to murder someone. Danny DeCarlo was a member of a motorcycle gang that was chummy with the Family; he said Moorehouse was one of his "special sweeties." He also said she told him "I can't wait to get my first pig." She was scum, just like the rest of them.

Moorehouse was the daughter of a preacher who became devoted to Manson.

I was reading Helter Skelter when it came out. I had smoked a couple of joints, I was staying with my sister and her then boyfriend, who sold weed.

I became totally terrified during the night after reading it, convinced there were murderers in the house and had already killed everybody but me. I hid under the bed all night.

It was only later I learned weed can make you paranoid. Haven't touched it since then.

R29, so according to you the WHOLE STREET had a creepy vibe?

Ruth Ann Moorehouse's story was lifted wholesale by Quentin Tarantino in his novelization of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. "Pussycat," played by Margaret Qualley in the movie, has a real name, Debra Jo Hubelhouse. "Pussycat" has a preacher father who became devoted to Manson, she had affairs with Jacobson and Melcher, and of course her real name is clearly a take off of Moorehouse's. IDK if Tarantino paid Moorehouse for her story or just took it, but "Pussycat" is definitely meant to be Ruth Ann.

Also, in the novelization, she doesn't just offer to suck Clint's cock: She takes off her clothes and spreads eagle for him in the car. Guess Qualley wouldn't film THAT.

Moorehouse fucked Melcher too, and he liked fucking her so much that he tried to move her into Cielo Drive as a live-in maid, but Candace squashed that idea.

I was thinking Sharon would have been too old to play Krystle, but she was actually born a couple of months AFTER Linda Evans. I keep forgetting how young she was when the murders happened.

R203 it wouldn’t have worked on film, at least not in this film. Especially because the vibe was not … THAT.

Ruth Ann was very pregnant when she was arraigned on the Hoyt charge. They let her out on bail and she fled the state. She came back a few years later and was eventually arrested on the old warrant, but so much time had passed and she'd kept out of trouble, so they just dropped the whole thing. It is kind of weird that they did that, but maybe the LA justice system was sick of the Manson family cases at that point.

What is this weird shit of acting like you know she would have been cast in a show that was made over a decade later?

An interesting website with up to date info on the family

Yeah, and I also don't think Pitt would have filmed the spread-eagle scene even if Qualley was willing. He's old enough to be Qualley's dad.

Cliff is a lot darker in the novelization. He's killed a LOT of people, and not just in the war. OTOH, Rick is a lot more sympathetic in the novelization, as his problems with low self-esteem and mental illness (undiagnosed bipolar) are discussed at length.

The novelization is interesting, as it's not a retelling of the movie plot at all but more a collection of deleted scenes that either weren't filmed or were cut from the final movie. Don't read it unless you've seen the movie, as it won't make any sense. I liked it, but I like that kind of thing.

Tarantino made the novelization to show us all that he couldn’t show us in the film, because it’s a film and has a limit on time.

According to Margot Robbie there is a 20 hour cut of the film. All that footage are scenes he put in the novelization. I hope one day we can see it.

I know Tarantino has talked about releasing a longer cut as a miniseries on one of the streamers. I'd watch that.

The Cliff/Pussycat scenes are some of my favorite in the film, and that’s because of the tone of them. They’re very light and sweet, until Spahn Ranch.

A spread Eagle moment wouldn’t have worked with this tone. Tarantino would have had to change the entire tone/atmosphere of the scene.

I agree, R213. I just wonder why Tarantino framed it that way in the novelization, as the result is the same: Cliff still turns her down.

R214 he probably wanted that for the scene, and that’s what he envisioned, but he knew what would work better in his film so he kept the original vision for a novel.

Loved this scene too.

"Moorehouse fucked Melcher too, and he liked fucking her so much that he tried to move her into Cielo Drive as a live-in maid, but Candace squashed that idea."

Where'd you hear THAT? That sounds like so much bullshit to me.

I doubt Moorehouse (or any other member of the Manson family) got paid anything because of Tarantino's stupid movie. The movie was a fantasy, not a realistic depiction of anything.

Jeff Guinn mentions the Ruth Ann thing in his biography of Manson. Melcher was quite taken with Ruth Ann for a short time, even though he was also living with Candace.

Don't you have to pay someone something if they are still living and you rip off their life's story? If not, why are people always selling their life rights for films and such? Who would pay them if the stories can just be taken?

R219 that’s why you change names.

What do we think of Emile Hirsche as Jay Sebring?

[quote] Don't you have to pay someone something if they are still living and you rip off their life's story?

If it's a public figure, I think you can do it. E.g., "unauthorized biography." It's not "ripping off" if you do a lot of research (interviews, etc.) and produce something interesting that's not already out there.

Emile Hirsch is a fucking psycho. Thumbs down.

I remember reading an excerpt from an interview or possibly a book by Susan Atkins where she mentioned how she was on the couch with Sharon restraining her while Tex left the room for a minute. She mentioned despite hearing everything going on how quiet Sharon was and how eerie it was. That’s always stuck with me. Then, of course, her dying screaming for her mother.

Susan Atkins also said she was the one who killed Sharon Tate. She spoke of it it graphic detail. She said Sharon pleaded "Please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. I don't want to die. I want to live. I want to have my baby. I want to have my baby." Atkins said she told her "Look bitch, I don't care about you. I don't care if you're going to have a baby. You had better be ready. You're going to die and I don't feel anything about it." In a few minutes I killed her and she was dead."

Atkins noticed there was some of Sharon's blood on her hands. She tasted it. She told this to the woman she was speaking to" Wpw. what a trip! To taste death, and yet give life." Then she asked the woman she was speaking to if SHE had ever tasted blood (she hasn't). Then she said "It's warm and sticky and nice."

According to Juan Flynn , Manson told him one of his future killings would involve parents and their young children. Manson told Juan that he would kill the kids after giving the parents acid . He would wait till the acid starts kicking in and cut up the kids . He was that diabolical and cruel . Of course, it would be his friends that would actually do the deed .

R137, Manson at least had sex with Paul Watkins, one of the male members of the Family, who mentions it in his book:

[quote] At the same time, deep within myself I began to experience a vague uneasiness. Initially I thought it stemmed from the trauma of my sexual number with Charlie. But that passed as he had said it would: by confronting whatever latent homosexual fears I may have harbored, I had discovered that I could perform bisexual acts without freaking out.

Charles Manson was super dangerous. He had an ability to get people to do things without explicitly telling them what to do. Bobby Beausoli was at Gary Hinman's house trying to get money back from a drug deal. Hinman didn't have the money. Manson came down, and wounded Gary with a sword. Manson tells Bobby "I came here because you're not man enough to do what needs to be done."

Manson leaves, and Bobby and Hinman are alone in the house for hours. Bobby finally calls Manson and askes what to do. Manson says "You know exactly what to do." And Bobby kills him. This is why Bugliosi had to use Helter Skelter as the motive. I don't believe that Manson told them to specifically kill anyone, even though that's clearly what he wanted. It's a fucking insane story.

Sounds so much like Trump, r227.

R228 Yeah. I find Trump to be very Jim Jones-like. But yes there's some Manson there too.

What's crazy is how much Manson sounds like George W. Bush. If you close your eyes, it's hard to tell which one of them you're listening to. I mean, in voice, and inflection. Not substance. Usually.

Could the baby Sharon was carrying possibly have been Jay's?

R230 doubtful

I don't understand why people keep thinking the baby could have been Jay's. If Sharon wanted Jay, she'd have married him. She left him for Roman, whom she married in 1968. They conceived the baby while still in the honeymoon phase. Roman might have been fucking around, but Sharon just wanted to nest and have Roman's baby, poor thing.

Sharon could have had Jay if she wanted him.

From a legal and even a moral perspective, it doesn't matter who struck the fatal blows. Almost all of the Manson followers who went to those houses went there armed with knives and with the intention of killing people. That they may have chickened out at the last second means very little. The only one who deserved mercy was Linda, who repeatedly refused to stab anybody, fled the family as soon as she could, and then turned state's evidence.

Compare her behavior to the brainwashed antics of Sadie, Katie, and Lulu, who all stabbed bodies and acted like creepy zombies during the trial. They didn't show remorse until years later, when they were separated from Charlie, given therapy, and the full weight of what they had done and what their future lives would be finally crashed down upon them.

Terry Melcher was such a douchebag. Has anyone read the transcripts of his testimony? So unlikable. He came off as a bigot too. What was Candy thinking?

As far as Shampoo, there's definitely an undercurrent of doom in the film. I once read a theory of the last scene that Jack Warden is taking Julie Christie to have her killed for publicly humiliating him, not to Acapulco to eventually marry her. I think the original script negates that since the final scene was supposed to be Beatty running into Christie (who's now basically Lee Grant) and Hawn (who's now a kept woman like Christie) at a coffee shop. Still, there are mentions of Warden's possible mob ties ("I wouldn't want him mad at me".), so it's interesting to watch it with that in mind.

I need to watch Shampoo, apparently

Melcher was the spoiled only son of Doris Day and grew up in immense privilege. As a young man, he and his friends called themselves the "Golden Penetrators," as it was their mission to fuck every high-status young woman in LA. However, unlike a lot of celebrity offspring, he wasn't professionally useless. He was a shrewd and talented producer, and he saved his mother from bankruptcy after her husband died and left her in a huge financial mess. So yeah, a douchebag, but at least he wasn't a layabout sponging off his mother.

Why did Doris Day go broke? She was one of Hollywood’s top stars.

r238, because her husband had been her financial manager and had been secretly draining her savings for years. She was almost entirely broke by the late Sixties as a result, and had to agree to do "The Doris Day Show" to make money all over again.

Her husband put her in a lot of bad investments without telling her. She was from that era of women where the man handled the finances and the woman, even if she were the primary breadwinner, didn't ask questions. He also signed her up to do a TV series without her knowledge, and none of this came out until he died suddenly. She was left in dire straights: broke, obligated, and reaching an age when most actresses are past their prime earning years.

Her son put his life on hold to straighten out her affairs and negotiate a good TV contract that ended up reclaiming her finances after a few years, as the show was a success. Again, Melcher was a douche in his private life but seemed to care about his mom.

A lot of women in that era got screwed over financially by their husbands: Doris, Debbie Reynolds, and Judy Garland, to name just a few.

Thanks for the hypothetical help, asshole.

Melcher was in the midst of sorting out his mother's finances when Manson started really pressuring him about a record deal. Melcher had no time to deal with some scruffy hippie guru of moderate talent, even if Melcher did like fucking one of the guru's girls. You could argue that this was one of the many threads which led to the Manson murders, as Manson deeply resented getting blown off by Terry and subsequently aimed his rage at whoever was living in Terry's old house.

Poor Sharon - had evil Roman's gnomebaby and then got murdered

She never had the baby

I wonder how high Voytek, Abigail, and Jay were that night. It was four people against three--five if Garretson had come out of hiding and helped. You'd have thought they'd have put up more of a fight.

Wasn't Bobby Beausoliel involved with avant-garde director Kenneth Anger? Bobby was also a musician, he worked on the soundtrack of one of Anger's films. I remember reading that Bobby lived with Kenneth for awhile.

IIRC, Candace Bergen had dated Terry Melcher.

R246 those people never had to do much in life, yet alone fight.

[quote]I saw one of those cheesy ghosthunters documentaries once that did some kind of ectoplasmic scan of the house near the Tate house, and apparently the paranormal vibes or whatever were off the charts. That whole neighborhood is creepy. I went up to Cielo Drive during a vacation in LA once but turned around fairly quickly. Really bad feeling there.

I think the old GHOSTHUNTERS series on SyFy also did a segment at the new house which was built on the site of the murder house. If the series wasn't Ghosthunters, it was one of those paranormal shows. It was an incredibly creepy episode. There were recordings, the crew captured them on the ghost-box mechanism they use during these paranormal shows. Or they simply set up tape recorders with mics, not sure what they set up.

On one of the recordings, there was a woman's voice screaming, "Please stop, no, no , no..." It was so creepy and awful.

The new owner said there was a lot of paranormal activity in the new house built on the property. Not sure if he spent much time there, but he acknowledged he wasn't comfortable in the house. He saw apparitions constantly.

Why anyone would even consider building a new house on that property is beyond me. That area will be haunted forever.

Just think of the great roles Sharon Tate might have played had she lived.

She would have been the right age for Ann Romano on "One Day at a Time," and she certainly would have seemed no less Italian-American than Bonnie Franklin.

Why are Dataloungers always so ready to believe in ghosts? Overall DLers mostly pride themselves on not being religious, but they are so ready to believe in spirits haunting the earth.

I would not have wanted to have lived in the actual house the murders had taken place in just because of the creepiness factor of imagining the people being killed in it, and it still amazes me it took them decades to bulldoze it. But once a new house is built, it's a new house.

R251, if somebody is killed somewhere, it doesn’t matter if it’s a house or a parking lot or whatever, it’s still creepy.

I saw a psychic say once that people leave a sort of resonance behind. It’s not the real person, it’s kind of like an echo. The real person’s spirit usually leaves the scene shortly after the death. That’s why you hear stories of somebody seeing a ghost, and the ghost acts like they don’t see the person or know they’re there. They just replay whatever happened on an endless loop. It’s like leftover energy from an event that held a lot of energy, like a scared person being murdered.

If that’s what it is, it makes sense that house would hold a lot of traumatized energy. Multiple people were killed there, when they died they knew their friends were being killed nearby or right in front of them. The Mansons did whatever they could to scare the living daylights out of the people before they died. Nobody died quickly. They had a lot of time to get really scared. Then they died painfully and violently. If they’d just taken a gun and shot them all quickly, they wouldn’t have suffered as much. Abigail was stabbed on the lawn over and over, she said she knew she was dead already from all the stab wounds. She and the others in the house must have heard each other screaming at one point. Then, there was Sharon and Jay, who cared deeply for each other so they were worried about each other, Sharon was pregnant and she wanted the baby to be saved. At one point she told them to cut the baby out after she died and let it live, and they said no. You have to be extremely desperate and emotional to say that. Jay must have been very emotional because he knew the woman he loved and her baby were going to be killed. The amount of traumatic energy there must be enormous.

If you believe in the afterlife, think about what must have happened afterwards. They would have looked down, seen their dead mutilated bodies and those of their friends. They say when people die, they are met by already dead friends and relatives. Jay died before Sharon, he would have waited for her. They would have seen the Mansons still around, maybe, if dead people notice the living. They would have seen each other, maybe spoken before they were escorted away by spirits of dead family members. So I guess they would have realized everyone in the group was dead.

The one thing they had going for them is they knew they were dead. They say sometimes when people die traumatically or suddenly, they might not realize they’re dead. These people all had time to reconcile themselves to the idea they were going to die. So maybe they were able to accept the idea quickly and agree to be escorted away by spirit guides.

I can’t imagine anything creepier than being murdered, leaving your body and hovering over the scene, only to see a bunch of murderers painting “pig” on the walls with your blood and laughing and congratulating each other over your death. I can’t imagine they’d want to stick around and see much of that.

They should have just bulldozed the house and left it vacant. I’ve read that hauntings can last hundreds of years. In England, they say the Tower of London is haunted and no one has been executed there for centuries. Same with Versailles and other old scenes of a lot of trauma.

My guess is the energy very slowly and gradually dissipates, but who knows? Maybe there’s more to it than that.

[quote] [R251], if somebody is killed somewhere, it doesn’t matter if it’s a house or a parking lot or whatever, it’s still creepy.

But if the house is torn down, and a new one is built on the same plot of land, there's no reason why a ghost would stay there. The ghost would have haunted the house itself, not the earth underneath. Even if your psychic's theory about 'resonances" were true, it would be the house itself that had the resonance, not the plot of land underneath it (unless the person was buried there).

[quote] They should have just bulldozed the house and left it vacant. I’ve read that hauntings can last hundreds of years. In England, they say the Tower of London is haunted and no one has been executed there for centuries. Same with Versailles and other old scenes of a lot of trauma.

Versailles was not a scene of much trauma for the people whose ghosts have been seen there (e.g. Marie Antoinette). if your psychic's theory were true, they would be far more likely to haunt the Place de la Revolution in Paris where the guillotines were located.

And again: even if ghosts DO haunt the Tower of London and Versailles, it's more likely that would be because the same buildings were there as were in their lifetimes. That's not true at Cielo Drive.

Interesting post r252

Anyone who actually believes in ghosts and hauntings is an idiot.

R247 Yup Bobby was Kenneth Anger's boytoy for a while. Bobby played the Devil in his Lucifer Rising, and yes, he scored it too.

[quote] From a legal and even a moral perspective, it doesn't matter who struck the fatal blows. Almost all of the Manson followers who went to those houses went there armed with knives and with the intention of killing people. That they may have chickened out at the last second means very little.

It does legally matter if you chickened out and didn't take part in the killings. Who would believe you, though.

The getaway driver, even if they sit outside the whole time, in the car, is culpable, though.

[quote] Why are Dataloungers always so ready to believe in ghosts? Overall DLers mostly pride themselves on not being religious, but they are so ready to believe in spirits haunting the earth.

Those are two different subsets of DLers. Then there are the astrology believers.

[quote][R247] Yup Bobby was Kenneth Anger's boytoy for a while. Bobby played the Devil in his Lucifer Rising, and yes, he scored it too.

Kenneth Anger and Led Zep guitarist Jimmy Page were close for awhile, they met at an auction for Aleister Crowley memorabilia. Of course, Page outbid Anger. Page asked Kenneth to come to his Loch Ness house, which was once owned by Crowley, to exorcise the ghosts and other evil entities out of that creepy house. It's called Boleskine House. Page sold the house many years ago and while he owned it, it's said he barely spent all of 30 days there. There have been several fires there over the years, last I heard there was little of the original structure left. There have also been a few suicides.

Anger then asked Page to score Lucifer Rising. At one point the film starred Chris Jagger, Marianne Faithfull and even Page had a role! While Page worked on the soundtrack, Anger stayed at another of Page's homes, Tower House, in London. There were some confrontations with Page's GF at the time, the mother of his eldest daughter Scarlet, Charlotte Martin, a former model. Charlotte she threw Anger out.

From that day on Anger supposedly put a curse on Page. Many believe the sudden death of Led Zep singer Robert Plant's small son Karac and the death of Zep drummer John Bonham were due to Anger's spells.

Who knows what to believe, but it's certainly an odd coincidence that so many bad things happened to Page after he brought Kenneth Anger into his life, besides those deaths, Page became a heroin and cocaine addict for many years.

John Bonham's death was essentially the end of Zeppelin. For many years, Page has been stuck in a rut musically, Plant has moved on to continued success with his various bands and this work with bluegrass singer Alison Krauss, think they have a new album coming out soon. Zep bassist John Paul Jones has worked with the avant-garde singer Diamanda Galas and also with many other younger musicians, such as Dave Grohl.

Page seems to be coasting on his past glories, he's always re-releasing re-vamped Zep tracks, he's hasn't moved on musically. In his private life, he's still dating much younger women. His current live-in GF is in her early 30s, he's pushing 80!

[quote] It does legally matter if you chickened out and didn't take part in the killings. Who would believe you, though.

The prosecution believed Linda Kasabian, who didn't participate in the murders and sat in the car outside. She got a much, much lighter sentence than the other Family members, and was the chief witness in the trial.

Manson also had an interest in Aleister Crowley. In Ed Sanders book, The Family, IIRC, there was a mention of Manson asking some members of his harem to rob some Crowley memorabilia from an occult museum in California.

In case anyone hasn't read it, The Family is a great read. Disturbing, of course, but engrossing.

[quote] The prosecution believed Linda Kasabian, who didn't participate in the murders and sat in the car outside. She got a much, much lighter sentence than the other Family members, and was the chief witness in the trial.

Interesting, thank you. They also needed her as a witness, so that helps. I'm guessing her lighter sentence was contingent upon on her testifying at trial.

R240, Yet, when Terry died, Doris refused to attend his memorial service, even though Terry's son, her only grandchild, begged her.

Doris did not believe in death, felt we live on eternally. Whenever one of her numerous pets died, her staff was instructed to bury the animal on Doris' property but never to inform her exactly where.

R262 Many of the "revelations" in Tom O'Neill's recent book Chaos had already been in Ed Sanders' book way back in 1971. When Vince Bugliosi released Helter Skelter in 1975, it pretty much became the Bible for Manson information. But it shouldn't have. What Tom O'Neill proved was that Bugliosi shaped a narrative that would get him the conviction. And to do so, certain facts were left out, and certain people told to perjurer themselves on the stand.

For example, according to Terry Melcher's testimony, he was only with Manson three times, and this was before the murders. Fact is, he was seen by several witnesses at Spahn Ranch AFTER the murders. One time, on LSD kissing Manson's feet, and begging for forgiveness.

To be clear, I believe the right verdict was reached, even if Bugliosi was shady in obtaining it.

Believing in ghosts has nothing to do with religion….

[quote]I don't know why they didn't just call Elizabeth Montgomery and her husband when the Manson group showed up. I've read they only lived 1.5 miles away.

Would've have to have been how Samantha called "Doctor Bombay" as Tex cut the phone lines before the murders.

[quote] For example, according to Terry Melcher's testimony, he was only with Manson three times, and this was before the murders. Fact is, he was seen by several witnesses at Spahn Ranch AFTER the murders. One time, on LSD kissing Manson's feet, and begging for forgiveness

Yikes if this true.

Why were doris and Terry melcher estranged?

Maybe because Terry Melcher was socializing with unsavory people.

DL personal favorites are merging here, the 'everyone in HW is a witch'/ speculations as to why horrible things come to pass the young and beautiful people within the same circles in HW as all of them witches.

And it all started with the question of a dangerous liason.

^^Roman Castavet

Linda Kasabian was originally charged with murder just like the others, but that was when they had Susan as a witness. They gave her a plea deal of not pursuing the death penalty against her in exchange for her testimony, but she reneged pretty soon and then Linda got a fantastic deal. Bugliosi said he preferred Linda anyway, as it was clear she hadn't killed anyone.

Leslie Van Houten's attorney wanted to separate her case from the rest, as she was apparently only guilty of stabbing a corpse on the second night. Had she allowed him to do this, she'd have probably been out of jail by the early 1980s.

"Yikes if this true."

I don't think it is. Tom O'Neill is a kook. And he conveniently waited until both Terry Melcher and Vincent Bugliosi were dead before he came out with his book with all the crazy stories. I think he knew if he printed that stuff Melcher and Bugliosi would sue the hell out of him and expose him as a liar.

" I think he knew if he printed that stuff Melcher and Bugliosi would sue the hell out of him and expose him as a liar."

That is, if O'Neill had printed his crazy stories while Melcher and Bugliosi were still alive. they would have sued him and exposed him as a liar. He waited until they were safely dead before he trashed them.

Melcher threatened to sue him when he came to interview him for the book. Melcher did NOT want anyone bringing up the Manson thing again. I wonder if part of that had to do with the fact that he was fucking underage Ruth Ann Moorehouse at that time. He saw what happened to Polanski.

Doris was also seen at the Spahn ranch after the murders, delighting the Family members with her renditions of "Everybody Loves a Lover" and "Perhaps, Perhaps, Perhaps."

Melcher was extremely unattractive. He looked like he was inbred

He had his mother's wide German bone structure, but he didn't get the rest of her attractive features.

Marty Melcher was his adopted father, not his biological father. His biodad was Day's first husband Al Jorden, an alcoholic trombonist who tried to beat the baby out of her before Terry was born. She left him, and their story was, it's rumored, the inspiration for the film New York, New York.

Later diagnosed as schizophrenic, Jorden shot himself in 1967.

The article above explains why Day didn't attend her only son's funeral. She hated talking or thinking about death: She told her assistant that when she herself died, she wanted no service, no memorial, and no grave marker. It's clear she loved her son, but she didn't want anything to do with death rituals. An unusual quirk but not an unforgivable one.

Doris Day

Original Name: Doris Mary Ann Kappelhoff

Death:13 May 2019 (aged 97) Carmel Valley, Monterey County, California, USA

Burial: Cremated, Ashes scattered

WHO exactly said that Terry Melcher was so smitten with little Ruth Ann Moorehouse? I've seen pictures of her. She looked dirty and crazy, like all the other Manson girls.

Melcher talked about his association with Manson. He said he didn't procure a record deal for Manson because he had no talent. He said he gave money to Manson and his followers because he'd seen the conditions they'd been living in and was appalled. Some of the Manson girls had children; Melcher said it made him sick to think of little children "eating out of garbage cans."

Melcher was questioned by detectives. They suggested his interest in Manson stemmed from desiring sex with Manson's harem of willing young women. Melcher became enraged; he said he pulled out pictures of some of his former girlfriends, "real beauties, all of them" and said to the detectives that if he had beauties like that to go to bed with why would he want anything to do with Manson's "clap-ridden, unwashed dogs." It does seem far fetched that Melcher would want to fuck Manson's crazy hippy sluts; he was a successful music producer, no doubt he could get a beautiful woman any time he wanted. His girlfriend was Candace Bergen, for Christ's sake. I don't see him fucking Ruth Ann Moorehouse unless he was a freaky pervert and I don't think he was. It's not like he was Dennis Wilson. It no surprise that he would be fucking Manson girls; Dennis Wilson would fuck anything and everything.

Clear that the Millennials who weren't around are getting educated, mostly misinformed, by this thread.

Doris Day practiced Christian Science. They believe there is no death, there is no sickness, there is no disability. Don't ask me to explain it but that's what they believe. Of course she wouldn't go to funeral.

"You've got the wildest ass in town, Doris, but nobody knows it!!" Ross Hunter

260, Anger boasts about his powerful curses , especially the supposed one he put on Bobby Beausoleil with the “ curse of the frog.” Anger ( appropriate surname) claims that Bobby ended up in a MAnson’s path and is in prison for life. The frog curse is entrapment . Anger looks truly terrifying now .

“ In his private life, he's still dating much younger women. His current live-in GF is in her early 30s, he's pushing 80!.” GOOD for Jimmy !

R275 I don't agree. Believe me, I'm the farthest thing from a conspiracy theorist. I believe Oswald acted alone, and on behalf of no one. But, what O'Neill writes about that tape rings absolutely true. And, he has notes written by Bugliosi in his own hand about Terry Melcher's post-murders visit to Sphan Ranch, and three eyewitnesses corroborate it.

I don't know that I agree with Tom O'Neill on his ultimate conclusions in the book, but that part I believe.

By the way, Vince Bugliosi was much, much more of a kook/liar. The man was an insane sociopath. Go down THIS rabbit hole.

R275 You should read the book. I went into to it doubting there would be anything new, but I was wrong. He uncovered tons of new information. And Melcher absolutely did appear at the Ranch multiple times after the murders. O'Neill has it well documented.

[quote] Dennis Wilson would fuck anything and everything.

I resent that!

"Dennis Wilson would fuck anything and everything."

Why? He was an incredibly handsome man who would not have had to settle.

That was for the kardashian /Jenner Spahn thread

The Melcher/Ruth Ann connection was mentioned in the well-researched You Must Remember This podcast and in the recent Guinn biography of Manson. It's also in O'Neill's book:

[quote]In his 2019 book CHAOS: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the Sixties, Tom O'Neil reexamined the Manson case and found evidence Melcher may have been more closely involved with the Manson family than he admitted at trial. In reviewing police files and other data, O'Neill found evidence Melcher was associating with Manson after the Tate-Labianca murders but before Manson's arrest four months later. These documents, seemingly hidden by Bugliosi, undermined claims the Tate murders were intended to frighten Melcher in revenge for his refusal to record Manson's music. O'Neill also found documents indicating Melcher was having sex with 15-year-old Manson family member Ruth Ann Moorehouse. Ruth Ann's father and Manson Family member, Dean Moorehouse resided at 10050 Cielo Drive with Melcher. Tex Watson would frequently visit him at the residence.[15]

And why wouldn't Melcher have fucked Ruth Ann? She was young, pretty, and would do literally ANYTHING. Most straight men would go for that, especially in the era of free love. And of course he'd tell the police that he wasn't interested in fucking Manson's girls. He was trying to limit his perceived connection to Manson in any way possible at that point.

We need a Kenneth Anger thread. He sounds wild.

[quote] Terry Melcher was such a douchebag. Has anyone read the transcripts of his testimony? So unlikable. He came off as a bigot too. What was Candy thinking?

Are the transcripts online somewhere?

The goal of the Manson lovers is to convince you all the victims and people who clipped the gang are bad people. Don’t fall for it

Here's one thing that can't be disputed: O'Neill wrote all his shit AFTER Terry Melcher and Vincent Bugliosi were dead. He did that so they couldn't dispute anything he said. That in itself is a great big red flag. From what I've heard about what he's claiming I would say O'Neill is a total nut job. But he did an not uncommon thing to make money and achieve some level of fame: write a book with a lot of crazy stories and accusations about people who are dead.

Amen r298

"Why? He was an incredibly handsome man who would not have had to settle."

Why? Because he was really fucked up, that's why. A pathological pussy hound.

"And why wouldn't Melcher have fucked Ruth Ann?"

Maybe because she was dirty, smelly and in all likelihood carried VD? Maybe because he could do a lot better than that and wasn't into fucking smelly, clap-ridden hippy girls who were underage? I've heard a lot about Terry Melcher; he didn't seem like a very admirable human being. But I never heard any reputable source claim he had a fetish for one of Charles Manson's whores. All those rumors about him come typical crazy Charles Manson podcasts and websites and nutty Manson crazies who come up with the most outlandish stories they can conjure up. Here's something to remember: just because somebody SAYS something doesn't mean it's true.

You seem awfully emotional about this, R301. You can shit on the multiple sources who talk about Melcher's involvement with the Manson girls all you want, but it doesn't make the story any less credible or documented. You're also not thinking like a straight man if you think that just because Melcher could fuck beautiful high-status women that he wouldn't ALSO fuck a cute, freaky, underage chick if he could get away with it.

" You can shit on the multiple sources who talk about Melcher's involvement with the Manson girls all you want, but it doesn't make the story any less credible or documented. "

How is it "credible" or "documented?" Like it's been said, just because somebody SAYS something (and a million miles of shit have been said about Charles Manson and anybody who had anything to do with him) doesn't mean it's true.

And you have no proof that it isn't true other than Melcher's frantic denials to the police at a time when of course he would distance himself from Manson and his people. But you seem convinced of your POV, so more power to you. I'm tired of arguing about a petty point when there are so many other interesting threads in the whole Manson murders story.

Melcher really was a smart producer. When he heard the first Byrds album, he thought the songs were interesting but the musicians were hopeless. All of the instrumentals on the first Byrds album were actually done by studio musicians. No idea if that continued on their other records or if they eventually learned to play. Melcher was beloved of the record execs during that period because he was young and understood the youth market while also being able to keep his eye on the bottom line.

I've heard a couple of Manson's songs and they aren't terrible, but wasn't the whole folky guitar thing a little dated by '69 anyway? The Mamas and the Papas were in the process of breaking up, Dylan had gone electric, and Led Zeppelin had just released its first album. Sure, you still had people like Carole King and James Taylor still do well in the 70s, but they were REAL song writers with much better voices than Manson, and they weren't really what you'd call folk singers anyway.

Was Sharon as much of a bimbo airhead as Margot Robbie portrayed her to be?

[quote] She looked dirty and crazy, like all the other Manson girls.

A lot of them weren't very attractive, were they? Moorehouse was probably the belle of the ball, and I suppose LVH had her moments -- then again, I'm not a straight man.

Whatever native looks the girls had were mostly ruined by months at Spahn Ranch and Death Valley, doing backbreaking physical labor with little food and sleep. At one point Charlie, desperate for money, wanted to pimp the girls for cash, but most of them looked so bad at that point he realized the idea wouldn't work.

Ruth Ann and Leslie looked the best, and Susan, a former topless dancer, apparently had nice tits, but that was as deep as his stable went. Then you have the really unfortunate-looking ones like Patricia and Squeaky. Old George Spahn liked Squeaky, but then again, he was blind.

Patricia looked like the description of Blair Witch 🧙‍♀️. A hairy beast

Yeah, she literally had a condition that caused her to grow extra body hair. She fell under Charlie's spell because he was the first man to tell her she was beautiful.

Manson was a hell of a lay apparently

R309, didn't a lot of them have the clap, too?

They did at one point: Dennis Wilson spent a lot of money taking them all to the doctor to get shots for the clap, and I think he had to do it more than once. The appeal of the Manson girls had to be that they were so compliant but also freaky. Charlie could order them to literally do anything with anybody. He had a special command called the 'strip and suck' where the girl in question was supposed to instantly drop her clothes, get on her knees, and suck off anybody Charlie told her to.

Remember, Charlie would let just about any man into the family, but girls only got to join if they passed his tests, most of which involved sexual degradation. If she wouldn't put out any way he told her to put out, she didn't get to stay.

Manson loathed women

There's a great scene in the film Charlie says where one of Charlie's male members brings a girl around who DOES have decent self-esteem, and she tells Charlie to fuck off in about two minutes because "her Daddy taught her not to take shit from men like him." He flies into a rage and orders her off the property.

It's nicely representative of the fact that Charlie was looking for a certain brokenness in his women. If they didn't have that, they were no use to him.

R306 his music was a skosh more pleasant than a cat in heat, and his poetry managed to be worse.

Also, let us not forget the Spaghetti Incident, tragic.

Manson's mother Kathleen was a thief and prostitute who did a long stretch in prison while he was a kid. She once tried to trade wee Charlie for a pitcher of beer. It's interesting that he seemed determined to turn any woman who because devoted to him into a thieving whore, and treated her like shit for her devotion. Huge mommy issues.

*became devoted to him

It has been said on DL before but Sharon went to the same elementary school at the same time as serial killer Dean Corll. He was in 5th grade. She was in 2nd. South Shaver Elementary in Pasadena, Texas. On the Facebook group for Pasadena High School, where Sharon briefly went before he family moved out of Pasadena, those who remembered her speak about what she was like. It was quite a few of them who gave their accounts. They all know each other so it seems legit. They said she was very pretty but very quiet and very sweet. She had gone to a Catholic school in Pasadena (St. Pius) for junior high so she was very shy at first.

I've heard 'sweet' used repeatedly in the descriptions of Sharon. She seemed like a nice woman, albeit with a quiet sadness due to being treated like a beautiful object more than a real person by so many people. I doubt she would ever have found happiness in being a famous actress, the most objectifying profession of them all.

I feel badly for Sharon and all of the victims, but I feel the worst for Steven Parents -- seeing as he was some blue-collar kid randomly at the wrong place at the wrong time. And naturally, his death was overshadowed as he was not a part of that crowd.

When you think about it, all of them were at the wrong place at the wrong time, as they didn't even know Charles Manson or his followers. But you're right, Parent's death is the most random of them all, and especially chilling when you realize that if he'd left 5 minutes earlier, he'd have been safely down the road before Tex and the girls showed up. Maybe even 3 minutes--he was literally coming down the driveway to leave.

Sharon in 6th grade at South Shaver in Pasadena, Texas.

Better view of her 6th grade pic

She wasn't much of an actress, but she was stunningly photogenic.

She most likely would have improved with practice and would have been competent actor as she got older.

She was only 26 when she was murdered.

She didn’t strike me as a drug addict or drinker. I think she would have aged well and lived a charmed life (she would have dumped Roman P long ago if she was still alive today)

So sad would could have been. Fuck Manson and those freaks. The ones still alive should rot in jail.

She would have definitely improved. She had charisma in spades. The screen loved her.

She would have been a good Krystle on Dynasty. No more wooden than Linda Evans, anyway.

She would have made it in movies. She’d have been someone’s muse and gotten a lot of parts. I think she would have retired early and enjoyed life away from the limelight.

[quote]She would have made it in movies. She’d have been someone’s muse and gotten a lot of parts. I think she would have retired early and enjoyed life away from the limelight.

Sharon would have been the American equivalent of Jane Birkin, she would have been an icon, her fashion sense copied by all the cool kids. Sharon would have either been extremely famous and still working or, as you said, retired early and remained mysterious, kind of like Garbo.

What was the deal with Rosemary LaBianca's daughter become chummy (romantic?) with her mother's killer?

R297 I don't believe that. Though I believe many of the claims in Tom O'Neill's book (because he backs most of the them up with irrefutable evidence,) I don't like when he suggests that some of the victims were somehow responsible of their horrible fate. He doesn't out and out say that, but he seems to think it's possible.

And, even if Melcher did visit Spahn Ranch three times after the murders, I don't really judge him for it. He must've been scared out of his mind and trying to make amends.

This article is absolutely insane. 9 months BEFORE the murders, Dennis Wilson mentions Charles Manson in an interview in the UK Record Mirror music newspaper. My jaw dropped when I saw it.

What's weird is, Dennis seems to claim to live with The Family at Barker Ranch in Death Valley. As far as I know, it's never been reported that he lived there.

That is an insane article r334. Dennis Wilson was a mess. So much acid! He probably fried his brain

Was Dennis interviewed by Bugliosi? It seemed Dennis was the one who gave Manson the impression he could have a musical career. At least in the beginning before he and his minions worn out their welcome

Bugliosi was a fame-whore. Not a nice or ethical man. He made a mint off the deaths and didn't shut down the gossip and leaks he could have. I wouldn't consider Helter-Skelter the bible, but at least he wrote it before all the principals died. That is always a bad sign that someone is lying because the lies can no longer be challenged.

R335 Dennis Wilson was scheduled to testify against Manson, but on the day of, he cancelled because he was "too scared."

R336 I was a big fan of his for years and years. I thought the DA should've brought him out of retirement to prosecute tie OJ case.

But, as time has gone on, I've learned some disturbing things about him. He's not the perfect, ethical, decent person he tried to project over the years. He was deeply flawed.

R246 I have often wondered why they ran and did not attempt to defend themselves. 4 against three and two girls in the three. It’s too bad Sebring, who did try to save Sharon did not have a gun. Shoot Tex right off and then pop the two girls, who prob would’ve run if it were not such easy pickings that night.

[quote] What was the deal with Rosemary LaBianca's daughter become chummy (romantic?) with her mother's killer?

There have been different rumors or theories regarding Suzan LaBarge and Tex. Suzan had issues with Leno and Rosemary before her death due to stealing from the family business. Some speculated the chummy relationship with Tex was done an F U to her late mother.

The linked blog entry mentions that Sharon Tate's sister Patti and others in the Tate family suspected that Suzan was trying to make money off her Christian forgiveness of Tex story. The entry also gives details on Suzan's daughter who murdered last year. Will Suzan befriend her daughter's murderer too?

There was an NBC series about the Manson case. Dennis Wilson was featured and many others mentioned there. David Duchovny played a detective. I think he was a detective. Ther series was supposedly renewed for second season, but never came back.

IIRC, there was a gay angle, with Manson fucking and blackmailing some guy. Am I remembering this correctly?

The guy who played Manson was very smarmy and annoying, not as good as the first actor to portray him in an old TV movie, forgot his name, he was excellent.

R340 Aquarius ran for two seasons, actually. 26 episodes.

There's an EXCELLENT documentary series from 2020 that ran on EPIX about Manson, the Family, and all the side stuff like the Beach Boys connection. It had tons of stuff I'd never heard before. Really, it might just be the last word on the whole matter.

Warning- if you start this series, you won't be able to stop. It's quite compelling.

R337 is a Manson lover . He may have been flawed or I say damage from childhood abuse, but he wasn’t a fucking murdering, sociopathic demon

R342 Not a Manson lover at all. Charles Manson died exactly where he belonged. He was scum.

Vince Bugliosi was awful. He stalked people, threatened them, beat up at least one woman, badly, and encouraged witnesses to lie on the stand. Not a great guy.

It's possible to hold negative opinions of both men.

Read up on Tex Watson and his Cush prison life for the first 25 years. He had several weekends of conjugal visits with his wife and four kids in an RV ,with tv/ VCR and home cooked food . He and his wife had a ministry for profit and they made great money. Tex also received over a couple grand a month from his mom . Tex got over for SO long. He’s truly evil.. Tex’s now in an isolated dorm in San Diego, with the Menendez brothers , and Sirhan Sirahan , the murderer of RFK

R343, I thought you were referring to Dennis Wilson . By the way, the best piece of advice I can give you ,is to not put ANY artist/ celebrity on a pedestal. They are usually deeply disturbed and fake .

R345 Well, I was much younger when I admired Vince Bugliosi. He actually came into where I worked circa 1998 to promote his OJ Simpson book. I was pretty star struck.

But, of course, as the years have gone on, and more of his story has come out, I realized he wasn't what I thought it was. Still, probably a brilliant prosecutor. But flawed in ways that make him almost irredeemable. He needed psychological help, but never sought it out.

Believe me, I'm old enough to know that everyone is all too human.

R346, his character is immaterial regarding Manson and friends guilt .

R347 Where did I suggest it wasn't?

What happened to OP’s pic?

I celebrated Manson’s death

Wow that documentary r341 is excellent. A whole fresh approach to the story with no hyperbole. Lots of footage I’ve never seen

Jeff Guinn's "The Life and Times of Charles Manson", is a great read, I highly recommend it. After Manson gets to Los Angeles, Guinn shifts focus to his female followers, and reveals interesting tidbits I never read before. Interestingly, he's particularly focused on Ruth Ann ,Leslie, and the girl whose Grandma owned Barker Ranch... All far and away the best looking of the bunch out of all those crazy skanks.

R341 and R351, does the series show crime-scene photos or footage? I need to be prepared if it does, or maybe not watch it at all. Otherwise, I'd like to.

R353 Yes, the crime scene photos are shown, and it's disturbing. Maybe watch it, and skip when it comes to the night of the murders.

It's a six part series. I think they show them in episode 5.

"Though I believe many of the claims in Tom O'Neill's book (because he backs most of the them up with irrefutable evidence,) I don't like when he suggests that some of the victims were somehow responsible of their horrible fate. "

Did he do that? If so then he's a cocksucking son of a bitch of epic proportions. I wouldn't believe anything anybody like that would have to say. He sounds REALLY fucked up.

[quote] The Melcher/Ruth Ann connection was mentioned in the well-researched You Must Remember This podcast

The podcast where Karina Longworth tells us that when Roman Polanski returned to LA after the murders, he was put up in the Paramount lot bungalow that Julie Andrews had just used while filming The Sound of Music. Except SOM was shot at Fox, in 1964.

"But, of course, as the years have gone on, and more of his story has come out, I realized he wasn't what I thought it was. Still, probably a brilliant prosecutor. But flawed in ways that make him almost irredeemable. He needed psychological help, but never sought it out."

You shouldn't believe everything you hear or read. All the crazy shit about Bugliosi has come out AFTER his death. Which leads me to believe that it's most, if not all, horseshit.

I'd say quite a few things make him "redeemable." He got death penalty convictions for all the Manson killers he prosecuted. He wrote a book about how O.J. Simpson was wrongly acquitted. He condemned the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in the Bush v. Gore case that decided the 2000 presidential election. He believed that George W. Bush should have been charged with the murders of the thousands of American soldiers who died in the Invasion of Iraq, because of his belief that Bush launched the invasion under false pretenses. Seems to me like he was right about a lot of things. I don't know why there are some assholes who are trying to portray him as some kind of an evil guy. Maybe because they like...Charles Manson? Maybe because they want Bugliosi to look like the bad guy? That is so sick. But then where Charles Manson is concerned there are a lot of sick fucks out there who for some reason are determined to make the victims (and Bugliosi too, apparently) out to be evil people deserving of vitriol and hatefulness.

R355 Well, to be more clear, O'Neill suggests (but doesn't out and out say) the possibility that Wojciech Frykowski and Jay Sebring were heavily involved in dealing drugs, and that the Manson killings may have been retribution for a deal gone wrong.

He kinda front loads the book with the stuff he has HARD evidence on, like Bugliosi's hand written notes showing that Melcher was at the Ranch a few times after the killings. But, as it goes on, he starts to get into crazy MKULTRA shit, that never really quite pieces together. The book would be much better without that stuff.

His main thesis is that the "Helter Skelter" motive wasn't actually why the killings happened, was proved. Though, I'd known that for quite a while before this book.

R357 No, it didn't come out after his death. It was all revealed during his lifetime. And it's all absolutely documented.

He stalked his former milkman and his wife, thinking the milkman was the real father of his son. He made threats to them, he let it be known that he knew where their daughter went to school, and he made their lives miserable. It's all corroborated here. It happened.

He pressured a woman into sex. He was married at the time. She got pregnant, and he demanded she get an abortion. She didn't want to. So, he went to her home, and beat the shit out of her, and she lost the baby. Again, this happened, and it's all documented here.

Again, I think he likely had a great legal mind, and I enjoyed his books. But he was deeply unwell.

I'm telling you- I used to think along your lines, until I saw these documents. If these stories hadn't come to light, I would still think well of him.

R357 And, again, the notions that Manson and his followers were murderous psychopaths/scum who were rightfully convicted, and that Bugliosi did some very fucked up things to people, and was mentally ill are not mutually exclusive. The world is a complex place.

R353 yes, some crime scene photos are shown, but it’s not too bad. Mostly it’s the gruesome narration But, if you know anything about the killings, none of it is new.

The one thing that was new and something I never heard, was that a few of the girls crawled from the Whiskey-a-GoGo to the hall of justice in justice for Charlie. Weird shit.

The documentary also had narration from a couple the Manson Girls. Very interesting

"No, it didn't come out after his death. It was all revealed during his lifetime. And it's all absolutely documented."

By who? By they way, a lot of "documents" can be faked. At any rate, I think the trashing of Bugliosi is to make Charles Manson look like not such a bad guy. It's like some freak (or freaks) are trying to say "How dare Buliosi diss Charlie! Look at what an evil person HE was!" Bugliosi seemed to be targets for a reason, and seems to be the reason why. And that is fucked up beyond belief.

Manson and the gang are never getting out

Dude- they're not faked documents. They are things like requests from Bugliosi for the public records of the milkman from the DA's office. He lied and said the milkman was involved in some case he was handling. And police and medical reports from the woman he beat up.

I was a fan of his, but when I started reading that stuff, I adjusted my opinion. That's a GOOD thing. The willingness to change your mind when new information becomes available.

If you need to see the world in black and white, with Manson being black (though, in this case he happens to be) and Bugliosi being white, I think you do yourself a disservice. Rarely are things quite that simple.

R361 Haha you must be pretty desensitized. Those crime scene photos are pretty graphic.

But, yeah, it's a great doc and maybe the last word on the family. I've never seen or heard a more comprehensive account of the Gary Hinman murder. Or the rest of it, for that matter.

" He pressured a woman into sex. He was married at the time. She got pregnant, and he demanded she get an abortion. She didn't want to. So, he went to her home, and beat the shit out of her, and she lost the baby. Again, this happened, and it's all documented here."

So why was he never arrested for beating a woman so badly she miscarried? Because of his "power?" Despite your bleating over and over about "documentation" the accusations against Bugliogsi sound like something Kenneth Anger or Darwin Porter or Scotty Bowers would make up. There definitely seems to be somebody's concerted effort to make Bugliosi look bad so as to make Manson look not so bad. That's the kind of insanity that tends to be prevalent when it comes to Manson and his Family.

If Vincent Bugliosi's evil deeds are "documented" and a matter of public record than why are NONE of his evil deeds (stalking, beating a woman into a miscarriage, killing the unborn fetus) mentioned on his Wikipedia page? Seems all that would be right there....if it were true.

Thank you very much, R354.

R367 I've put all of the documentation in the web site link space twice already. There are improper requests for information signed by Bugliosi, literal receipts, cancelled checks, signed letters, sworn depositions, newspaper articles, phone records, and police reports. And, it all rings true. It happened.

As to why it's not on Wikipedia I can only speculate that he was very imagine conscious, and controlling of the narrative of his life. I can imagine him, up till his death, being on top of it. And his family taking over to keep unflattering stories out.

I believe, or I should say, I know with certainty that the stories are true. You don't believe it, because you don't want to believe it, as evidenced that you seem to refuse to look at the documentation. And, that's fine.

At this point, we're at an impasse. I don't think any further discussion of this topic would be constructive. But, I would say go back and have a look at what I posted. You might be surprised.

The posters determined to suck dead Bugliosi's and Melcher's dicks need to be content with their hero-worship and quit trolling. You aren't convincing the rest of us.

R369, that is how it’s done. Boys and girls, this is how adults sound and act when they disagree. Notice no screaming, name calling, anger, rage. R369 just clearly stated the talking points, then let it go. So refreshing.

And, that poster is correct. It is indeed all true about VB, and he worked for decades to hide these stories from the public. I am certain that is why his wiki is off.

Thanks for the recommendation of the Epix series: I watched the first episode last night, and it's very well done. I never fully understood what went down with poor Gary Hinman before this. Bobby Beausoleil is honest about what he did, but oi, what an idiot. First, he was an idiot to try to impress bikers with homemade mescaline. Then, he was an idiot for taking Charlie's girls with him to negotiate a make-right deal with Hinman, as they reported everything to Charlie and got Charlie on the scene. Third, he was an idiot for ever letting Charlie in the door, as Charlie escalated a situation that Bobby was actually resolving. Fourth, he was a BIG idiot for stabbing Hinman to death at Charlie's suggestion. Fifth, having done that, he was a fucking moron to leave the scene in Gary Hinman's car, WITH the murder weapon. He deserved life in prison for dumbassery alone.

[quote] I believe, or I should say, I know with certainty that the stories are true.

You don't "know" anything. You're a freaky troll with a grudge against Vincent Bugliosi. It's like you're trying to smear Bugliosi as if to say "How dare Bugliosi say bad things about Charlie! Look at what a bad guy HE was!" That is some weird fucked up shit.

R373 who da fuq could have imagined the DL had a Vincent Bugliosi hating troll? I love the DL!

r373 sounds like they're related to Bugliosi.

It IS possible that Manson was a horrible monster AND Bugliosi had serious issues. Just because you criticize Bugliosi doesn't mean that you think Charlie should have been set free to spread his toxic bullshit all over planet Earth.

Not the poster who posted the Bugliosi stuff, BTW. I have no idea if it's true. What I do know is a straw man argument when I see one, and R373 is full of crap (and straw).

Am I the only one who thinks young Bobby Beausoleil wasn't all that? He had pretty eyes but a doughy face. I guess he was Adonis next to Manson, but that ain't much of a horse race.

I think Beausoleil was beautiful as a young man (sorry).

Bobby was good looking in a hustler type of way- Truman Capote

{quote] Not the poster who posted the Bugliosi stuff, BTW. I have no idea if it's true. What I do know is a straw man argument when I see one, and [R373] is full of crap (and straw).

All Sharon Tate/Charles Manson threads attract weirdo fucks who claim to "know" crazy shit...like Vincent Bugliosi being a stalker and nearly beating a woman to death and causing the death of her unborn child. If you take seriously the blatherings of fucks like that....well, that's just terribly sad.

R378, don't be sorry. There are a lot of horrible men who I can objectively state are/were physically attractive.

Thank you, R371.

I've noticed that, on some topics, many people carry a narrative in their heads, and it's very important to them. Even if you present them with new information that contradicts it, they still cling to it. I've been guilty of it. I guess the work is to try and remain objective, and let the facts lead to your conclusions. Don't START with your conclusion, and work backwards to justify it, or ignore facts that counter it.

R372 Yeah, I was so impressed with that section of the doc. I don't think the story of the Hinman killing has ever been told so truthfully. I feel like I now know the whole story. Originally, a few people testified that it was Manson knew Hinman had $20,000, and sent Bobby to get it. Bobby's girlfriend testified that Bobby told her he was going to "rob an old fag he used to know." Now, I'm sure it was Manson told her to testify that way.

I agree that Bobby Beausoli was a complete idiot, who did a terrible thing but fuuuuck was he hot. Dude was a piece of ass. I envy Kenny Anger for sucking his dick before he turned evil. Btw his dick can be seen in one of Anger's movies, and it's nice.

R376 Right, this person insists that I think Manson and the rest were wrongly convicted. I don't at all. And, he says I'm a troll, but I said we were at an impasse, and the subject was over. Not troll-like. And then he pretended to be a second person, also calling me a troll. Ironically troll-like tactics, there, I'd say.

Accuse your opponent of that which you are guilty. Very Trump-like.

Didn't the Manson murders and Woodstock both occur in August of 1969?

Yeah. In July you had the moon landing, and the the Tate murders on August 9, and Woodstock on Aug 15 to 18.

I always notice there are a cluster of terrible anniversaries in a two week period in August. The murders mentioned above, August 9, Nixon resigns also August 9, Nagasaki bombed August 9, Hiroshima bombed August 6, Marilyn Monroe death August 4, Elvis dies August 16.

Bobby Beausoleil and Catherine "Gypsy" Share appeared in a horrible-looking B-western called "The Ramrodder", which was filmed at Spahn Ranch. In one scene, Bobby, playing a blue-eyed Indian, grabs a huge knife and goes to town on the guy who raped/murdered Gypsy's character.

Share, by the way, was played by Lens Dunham in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

[Quote]Accuse your opponent of that which you are guilty. Very Trump-like.

You can that "Trump" shit and stick up your ass, troll. You're one sick fuck.

Manson was the king of projection and he loved to throw anyone under the bus if it benefited him. A disloyal fuck

About that tape that reportedly shows Sharon Tate being "raped by two men"...well, at first the rumor was that tapes found at the murder house showed orgies that took place with big name Hollywood stars. Here's Roman Polanski's explanation of it. I'm no fan of his (he's a creepy perv who had or still has a fetish for girls under 18) but I think he's telling the truth. But I guess it's always so much more fun to believe the more outlandish tales of it:

"Finally, there was the videotape of Sharon and me making love, found by a detective on the little mezzanine over the living room. One writer later claimed the police had unearthed a whole collection of pornographic movies and stills involving famous Hollywood stars. Although I was never questioned about the tape, I should no doubt be accused of concealing a significant aspect of our lifestyle if I failed to mention its existence.

The videotape recorder was the one I'd bought from Paramount after having used it to tape rehearsals of "Rosemary's Baby." It was a rare toy in the late 1960s, and we played with it a good deal. One night I suggested switching it on and making love. "Fine," said Sharon, "what characters should we play?" The whole thing was frivolous rather than lewd or exhibitionistic. Gene's only comment when I told him what we'd done was "Why, do you want to check your technique or something?" At the back of my mind was the idea that it would be hilarious to play the tape years later, when we were old. It wasn't to be."

Which one of you bitches would have done the dirty and nasty with Clem Grogan?

R386 You can add another one to the 'terrible anniversaries'.

R390 Who are you quoting?

R384

"Accuse your opponent of that which you are guilty. Very Trump-like".

Funny you should say that.

[quote] Who are you quoting?

Roman Polanski. It's from his memoir, "Roman."

R386, We can't leave out Chappaquiddick, July 18, 1969.

R387 Bobby Beausoleil had the face of an angel. Disappointing. I always like a good face and he has it, too bad he didn't make good with it instead of us all wondering why. I know he is in prison but he is also on Twitter. Last wrote May 25.

I always wish George Spahn had written a book about what went on there. Talk about an insiders look.

R386, Groucho Marx died on August 19, 1969. I recall a columnist writing that it was the only time Groucho displayed bad timing, as the country was preoccupied with Elvis' death.

R388 What makes me a "sick fuck?" We had a disagreement over a celebrity, and you started calling me names, and attacking my character over it. Classic example of dishing it out but not being able to take it.

R396, Bobby is very talented in music and art especially. A very smart guy . He is a satanist though . He says he’s a Buddhist, but Lucifer is across his chest

[quote] What makes me a "sick fuck?"

Your agenda to portray Vincent Bugliosi, the man who successfully prosecuted the Manson killers, as an evil man (beating a pregnant woman so badly she miscarries; I'd say that's pretty evil). You seem to be on a mission to make people hate him. That's pretty sick, fuck.

Bobby Beausoleil was a great name for an actor/singer. Such a shame

Just a lot of ruined lives for that piece of shit Charles Manson

Rolling Stone magazine recently (maybe last year) did an article very sympathetic to Bobby Beausoleil. The author of the piece, a male, seemed to have a crush on him. Although he didn't come right out and say it itwas obvious that he thought Beausoleil should be paroled, because "it's been a long time." Not long enough. Needless to say I will never subscribe to the Rolling Stone again.

Beausoleil is dangerous as hell. After he was convicted he was quoted as saying "You just better hope I never get out."

Bobby Beausoleil had a horrific childhood, both physically and sexually abused by his parents. He ran away in his early teens and never lived at home again. That doesn't excuse what he did to Gary Hinman, but it does explain why he had so many gifts--good looks, musical and acting talent--and squandered them all.

[quote] Groucho Marx died on August 19, 1969

Of course you mean Groucho Marx died on August 19, 1977, three days after Elvis.

August is a miserable month. It's the worst part of summer, hot and sticky and suffocating. I always breathe a sigh of relief when the calendar turns to September.

Beausoleil has been involved with the Aryan Brotherhood while in prison.

He's not a good guy.

Princess Diana died on August 31.

R406, in all fairness to Bobby, he did denounce all form of violence and hate by late 70’s in prison . He became very prolific n music and art . He’s a mentor for younger prisoners.

R404, Oops, sorry about that. Thanks for the correction.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

R400 Agenda? No. Fact based opinion.

Your obsessive, binary, black and white thinking may indicate some kind of mental illness. Be well.

It's crazy how normal-looking "certified idiot" Clem turned out (here he is with his band in 2012)

Why should there be any "fairness to Bobby", R408? He tortured and killed a man who had befriended him. He's a murdering scumbag, a Manson family member!

Bobby Beausoli's interview with Truman Capote. Truman was pretty clearly turned on by him. Though, he didn't let him off the hook.

[quote] Agenda? No. Fact based opinion.

Your "facts" leave a lot to be desired. I think your hatred of Bugliosi stems from the fact that you're a relative of one of the Manson killers. Or maybe you're just a big fan of theirs. You are one sick mentally ill fuck.

R414, Truman developed a crush on one of the "In Cold Blood" murderers, the one played by Robert Blake in the movie. It was believed they somehow engaged in sexual activity when Truman would visit the prison.

Have any of the children that were raised at Spahn Ranch written memoirs or done interviews?

R414

Yeah but Capote also fell in love with Perry Smith/In cold blood murderer. He was even better looking than Robert Blake at the time he looked HIS best.

R417 7 of them here.

[quote] Have any of the children that were raised at Spahn Ranch written memoirs or done interviews?

Yes, they have. I haven't read or heard any of them, though. What could they say? They were just children at the time. They had no idea what was going on.

Bobby Beausoli came VERY close to getting away with it. His trial started on November 14, 1969. No one had any idea the Hinman murder was related to the Tate murders. In fact, Manson hadn't even been connected to the crime when the trial started.

Around November 18, both the defense and the prosecution rested. It was a short perfunctory trial. The defense called no witnesses. They didn't have much of a case against Bobby at all. The judge was about to submit the trial to the jury when he got a call from the DA office instructing him to put the trial on hold for one week.

By the time they resumed, the judge ordered that there was one more witness. A guy from the motorcycle gang the Straight Satans. Bobby's public defender was furious until the day he died that neither he nor the prosecution was consulted on this witness.

So, the gang guy testifies, and Manson's name comes up for the first time in any of the trials. He gives the details of Bobby and Susan Atkins killing Hinman.

Thing is, most of the jury didn't buy his testimony. It was a hung jury. Next time Bobby was tried was after the first round of convictions. And his codefendants were Charles Manson and Susan Atkins. He got the death penalty.

Bobby Beausoleil is still being coy about why he stabbed Hinman. In his phone interview during the Epix documentary, he says Charlie told him that Bobby knew what he had to do. Then, Bobby said that about an hour later, he stabbed Gary Hinman to death. Why did he do it?

Charlie is the one who slashed Gary's ear, not Bobby. Bobby could have helped his friend Gary by taking Gary to a hospital, and of course, the police would have been called. OR, he could have simply left Gary's house and hoped that Gary, who had already said he was going to call the police, named Charlie as his primary attacker. Even if Gary DID tell the police that Bobby had hit him with a gun and intimidated him into signing over his cars, the charges for that would have been far, far less than a first-degree murder charge.

What happened during that hour between talking to Charlie and stabbing Gary? Bobby still hasn't admitted his thought process. Until he does, it feels like he's not really confronting what he did.

R422 well, this is where Manson's evil genius comes in, right? Bobby calls Manson when Hinman doesn't have the money. At that point, Manson decides he's going to try this power he has over people on getting someone to kill without specifically telling them to do it.

Manson cut's poor Gary Hinman's ear. Beats him up. Bobby says "Why did you do that?" Manson says "To show you how to be a man!" So, Manson plants the idea in Bobby's head that being violent with Gary was the manly thing to do. And, if he shrinks from it, he's less than a man. Bobby, at age 18, looked up to Charles Manson as a kind of father figure, so for sure those words must have stung, and got under his skin.

Manson leaves Bobby to finish the job with Gary. Manson knows that if Hinman goes to a hospital, he will eventually snitch on them, and he knows where they live. Bobby, of course, was apprehensive. After a few hours, Bobby calls Manson, and asks him what to do. Manson says "You know what to do." Manson knew those words would result in Bobby killing Gary Hinman.

Manson at that point, became drunk with the newfound power. He ordered his followers to murder seven additional people without specifically instructing them to do it in the subsequent days. Who knows, if Bobby had told Charlie to go fuck himself, the Tate/LaBianca murders may never have happened.

Charlie, as smart as he was, was also a complete idiot. He figured that he would never do time for the murders because he didn't do any of the actual killings, and had never explicitly told anyone to either. Think again, scumbag.

A badly bleeding Gary pleaded with Bobby to take him to hospital. He promised he wasn’t going to say anything ,he was going to say that he fell I was inebriated. I believe Jerry because he was in the game too so he couldn’t go to the man anyway. Bobby was pretty cold hearted.

[quote]Who knows, if Bobby had told Charlie to go fuck himself, the Tate/LaBianca murders may never have happened.

That's an interesting point. Also, he wouldn't have had the excuse with the girls (who all loved Bobby) that they needed to commit 'copycat' murders to get Bobby out of jail.

Ironically, if they hadn't committed the murders, Bobby probably would have beaten the murder rap. Instead, he ended up on death row.

*Also, CHARLIE wouldn't have had the excuse

If Charlie had looked like Bobby, I could have understood the whole cult crap a lot more. Charlie was a 5'2 35-year-old ex-con (in a youth-obsessed time and place) with horrible hygiene. It's so weird that all of those women just couldn't get enough of him.

I didn't realize Bobby was only 21 at the time of the Hinman murder. No wonder he acted like such a dumbass.

R427, he was an excellent lay .

R427 Like that Keith Raniere from Nxivm, Manson had perfected the art of giving and withholding praise, and speaking the new age sounding gobbledygook that SOUNDED profound. He spent hours in prison reading self help books like How to Win Friends and Influence People, and he studied Scientology. Keith from Nxivm and Manson were two ugly-ass guys that could get women and some men to do their bidding.

R425 Yeah when Manson realized he now had this powerful tool in his arsenal, he didn't hesitate to use it. For the purpose of getting brother Bobby out of jail, and maybe to scare the daylights out of Terry Melcher to punish him for not getting him a recording contract. I guess, even if it didn't work with Bobby, he would've tried it again at some point.

R425 that's a really good point. Again, Manson gets in his own way. It's very possible that Bobby would've been acquitted. The only evidence they had was that Gary signed his car over to Bobby. A friend of Gary's took the stand, and he was asked by the defense "Is that something Gary might've done? Signed over his car to a friend who needed one?" And the friend said "Yes, Gary was very generous. Always helping friends with money and stuff." And even if he'd gotten convicted, he wouldn't have done more then 10 years for it. It was the association with Manson that keeps him in prison to this very day. His parole board keeps letting him out, and the Governor keeps overriding it.

R427

A lot of the girls that came to Charlie (if not all) were rejected by their fathers, abused at home or broken homes and usually runaways . They were very young some 14 when they met Manson, but even the ones who were older were in sore need of love, home and a friend. Dianne Lake was 14 and Ruth Ann Moorehouse was 15 when they met Charlie. Some were older, Patricia Krenwinkel was 20, Leslie Van Houten was 19, Susan Atkins 19. He offered them a place to live other than the street, a so called 'family' and 'friends' and taught them house to survive the life outside of home. He supplied them with drugs and parties, music and laughter and a feeling of stability in the world and for a while it was all good. He used them sexually and paired that with the thinking it was love, they were very young, vulnerable emotionally and unable to weed out the tricks he was playing on them. I don't say that every young girl would follow him to doing heinous acts but he did use brainwashing techniques on them, which he learned in San Francisco. At the time SF was loaded with groups of odd origins and teachings and he made use of the material he learned in some of them to his own perverted end.

He got them into circles of musicians that I'm sure swelled their heads and gave them the brass ring in reach. From the LA Times article, "His biggest break came when Dennis Wilson, drummer for the Beach Boys, picked up two of Manson’s girls hitchhiking on Sunset Boulevard. He took them back to his house, an old hunting lodge in Pacific Palisades that was once part of Will Rogers’ old ranch. They left without recognizing his name. But Manson knew who he was.

Later that night, when Wilson pulled into his driveway in his Ferrari, the house lights were on. Manson emerged from the house, according to biographer Jeff Guinn, “smiling and waving as if he were the host greeting a guest.”

The family moved in, and lived off Wilson’s wealth for months, while Manson relentlessly worked him and his friends, Gregg Jacobson, a songwriting partner, and Terry Melcher, a wunderkind producer, for a record deal. He ordered his “girls” to have sex with them whenever the men wanted, wrote Guinn in “Manson: His Life and Times.”

Manson talked his way into jam sessions with Neil Young, the Mamas and the Papas and others".

It had to have had an effect on these otherwise street urchins. In Bugliosi's book, Helter Skelter, he says that during the time the family was growing there was kind of a sifting process. Ones who came in and didn't like it, left. Ones who did stayed for a while till they tired of it but then there were ones who came and became abject devoted followers, these were the core group. That is who ended up killing for him. It was not just anyone who became the core group.

Good post, R432. I'd like to hear from some of the Manson followers who left before the murders, when Charlie started getting really aggressive and violent. What was the triggering event that made them leave? Was there a particular week or month when things went from sex, drugs, and music to knives, guns, and death?

Of course, I can understand why those people would want to keep their association with the family under wraps, so maybe that's why you never hear from them.

Wasn't John Phillips tight with Manson? Phillips was the first person Polanski suspected of the murders.

Polanski must have had some charm. He slept with Catherine Deneuve, Mia Farrow, and Michelle Phillips.

R435 they all wanted roles in his movies. He was THE hot director for a while.

Sinatra found out Mia was fucking Roman and served her divorce papers on the set.

Roman cheated on Sharon with Mia? I know he slept with Michelle but I thought Sharon and Mia were really close friends? I guess Soon-Yi is right, Mia *IS* bitch!

Mia also stole Dory Previn's husband by pretending to be her friend. Mia was no saint.

Sharon and Michelle were close friends too. Roman still banged Michelle.

Is the 1976 Helter Skelter film worth watching?

It is worth a look, r441. It's very faithful to Bugliosi's book compared to the 2004 version, and was really scary and effective when it first aired (when I was10). But on a recent viewing I see it hasn't aged well; total amateur hour as far as acting and production. The lack of any big-names in the cast did help give it a more documentary feel, though. I think the biggest "star" at the time was "Texas Chainsaw Massacre"'s Marilyn Burns, who played Linda Kasabian.

R441

It's great don't let anyone tell you it's not. It's the remake that's not. And it has several stars in it, George DiCenzo plays Vincent Bugliosi and was in a lot of tv shows back then. He even looks like Bugliosi a bit. I loved him in it. Steve Railsback played Manson and did a fabulous job. Looked quite a lot like him and nailed him. He's a very good actor and if you ever get a chance to see him in Ed Gein (who Psycho was based on but Gein was much creepier and his crimes more grisly than Norman Bates) but he's also in many other movies and tv shows, including an episode of the x-files. There are many other actors in it that were in many of the tv shows at that time. Might not be recognizable to ones now but they are seasoned actors.

My favorite was Nancy Wolfe who played Sexy Sadie (Susan Atkins) and was just great at it.

I actually just bought a dvd of Helter Skelter '76 because it's one of my favorite tv movies.

Oh for God's sake, Mia Farrow didn't "fuck " Roman Polanski. She was definitely not his type and I don't think he was hers. And I seriously doubt she had sex with him to get a role. Where on earth did this crazy rumor come from?

Does anyone really believe Roman Polanski would risk infuriating Frank Sinatra by sleeping with Mia Farrow?

Sinatra would have been an old man in Polanski's eyes. I doubt he knew about Frank's mob connections.

In 1968, Sinatra was only 53 and his powerful connections would have been well known by Polanski.

IMO after all of Mansion’s opportunities started to dry up (Dennis Wilson, Melcher, etc) It was a slow burn to insanity. The killings started with Hinman and Shea and escalated from there.

R433 this is from after the murders, but still interesting

if you watch the Epix documentary, I think it’s in episode 4, there’s a former mansion girl (Stephanie Scham) that tells a story about her and another girl escaping right after the murders (Tate and LaBianco). She said they waited until everyone was asleep and slipped away.

They climbed up to the top of the basin and walked for hours and a cop car just happened to drive by and picked them up. The cop took them to jail (not sure for what)

The said about an hour after they left, they could see the dune buggies looking for them. They could see them from up on top. She said if they caught her she was sure they would murder her and the other girl They were both pregnant at the time.

She said they both got out just in time.

It's amazing how it's the same story over and over again with cults. At first, it's all peace love and understanding- free love, working together in harmony. Then it slowly turns- becomes darker as the leader starts becoming more and more abusive and paranoid. And for most of the cult members, its like boiling a frog. Then one day it starts going downhill real fast, but it's too late to get out without being harmed. It's the Jim Jones story too. The story in the doc of Manson anally raping that girl, and then telling her "That's how we do it in prison" was so fucking sad.

Charlie was always a con man. I think Jim Jones had good intentions in the beginning but the power went to his head.

I posted Steven Parent and William Garretson in the "Gay Hook ups you believe" thread because I first heard it from my friends when I moved to Manhattan in the early 70s. It seemed to be common knowledge in the community. That was years before it was suggested in the press.

Hmmm yeah Steven picked up William hitchhiking in July. Dropped William off at the Cielo guesthouse, and told him to "drop by any time."

Steven arrives on August 8 at 11:45pm with a clock radio to sell to William. He makes a phone call, and leaves at 12:15am. That could be a quick hook up, but I don't recall many times when a situation of mine like that only lasted 30 minutes.

In any case. Steven Parent shares the bad timing prize with Ron Goldman.

I never showed up at someone's doorstep at 11:45 pm to sell them a used clock radio.

Can't argue that.

Watched a documentary the other night and perhaps I can add something. I was young back then and straight men NEVER wore speedo type swimsuits. And Jay Sebring was straight, right? He was a hick who had been in the navy and became a men's hair stylist. According to what I read and the lengthy documentary, they had an affair, but Sharon met and married the European director. Sharon and Jay continued as platonic friends however.

Hook up or drug buy. Or both.

I was watching the Epix documentary last night, and Catherine Share (Gypsy) said that after Manson shot Bernard "Lotsapoppa" Crowe in mid-1969, things really went downhill. Manson erroneously believe that he had 1) killed Crowe and that 2) Crowe was a Black Panther. He was shit-scared of the Panthers and sure that they were going to come to the ranch and kill him and his family. After that, he started stockpiling weapons, drilling his followers in fighting tactics, and dealing as many drugs as possible to make enough money to permanently move to Death Valley.

R457 Right, the shooting of Lotsapoppa also caused him to keep the motorcycle gang the Straight Satans around. It was because of them that Bobby killed Gary Hinman. So crazy how this escalating series of events just got worse and worse. Like the Beatles sing in Helter Skelter "It's comin' down fast"

R457 good point, I forgot that piece of info.

For a little man, he sure caused a lot of carnage

Manson shot Crowe in early July 1969, Bobby killed Hinman in late July, and the Tate-LaBianca murders happened in early August. That's a fairly short downward spiral: No wonder so many family members were blindsided.

R357, what you write is interesting. Let me share a few facts with you, though. Thousands of prosecutors across the U.S. have been implicated in lying, withholding key information from the defence, framing (mostly black and brown) people, and if you ever watch programs about exoneration, they NEVER admit their mistakes or apologize to those whose lives they actively ruined. Look at the death penalty--I knew a guy who'd been on death row for eight years and was totally innocent. He had NOTHING to do with the crime--but he was black. My dislike of Bugliosi is based on his overweening ego. I agree with him on the issues you cite, but I mistrust him the say I mistrust all prosecutors until they prove they are ethical. In my opinion, his writing a book that cashes in on Tate's horrific death is not ethical.

^ ^ defense, sorry

DL definitely needs a thread about Kenneth Anger, real name: Kenneth Wilbur Anglemyer.

[quote] . I think Jim Jones had good intentions in the beginning but the power went to his head.

I've read several good books about Jones and what happened at Jonestown. They all contradict the assumption that Jones was a good man who was led astray by the corruption of power. They all revealed him to be a very disturbed, fucked up individual right from the beginning. He was always a monster. But he was alsovery persuasive and he made his followers believe he was a "socialist" who wanted equal rights for everyone. He tricked his followers into believing he was "on their side." But he was just a very dangerous crazy man.

R461 "-I knew a guy who'd been on death row for eight years and was totally innocent. He had NOTHING to do with the crime--but he was black".

Problem is there are a lot of black guys (and other colors) on the street who were NOT innocent that have gone on to kill again and some even again...because of a defense lawyer who got them out.

R465, can you cite your source please. I would like to see that data.

[quote]Steven arrives on August 8 at 11:45pm with a clock radio to sell to William. He makes a phone call, and leaves at 12:15am. That could be a quick hook up, but I don't recall many times when a situation of mine like that only lasted 30 minutes.

The coroner's examination of Parent's body found no evidence of a recent sexual encounter. They check for everything.

For years I thought Parent was the caretaker and I never even heard of Garretson. I learned something new about this case.

I’m thinking that clock radio thing was the given explanation for the meeting by Garretson to the police. They said he was obviously under the influence in the cell that night. Prob a drug deal.

I wonder how much he really heard and over the years must’ve thought a lot on that night.

Everything went really fast considering he only got out of prison in March 67.In under two and a half years he gathered all these people and they went from drop outs to mass murderers.( Well some escaped and some stayed cultish too).

R26- I did the SAME THING. I was so creeped out on Cielo.I had the most peculiar feeling in that area and turned around as soon as I could. It's very erie knowing you're going the very same path, exactly where the family members walked up to murder everyone there. Oddly enough, I swung by the Bundy Drive townhome where Nicole Brown Simpson & Ron Goldman were slaughtered by OJ and it was totally normal.

The music in the 1976 Helter Skelter was eerie. The opening was effective. The guy who played Vince was a Dark Shadows producer, George DiCenso - probably spelled that wrong.

Some info about William Garretson from an article by someone named H. Allegra Lansing:

Initially, during questioning, Garretson feigned ignorance about the murders. But later, he admitted that during the night he noticed that the door handle inside the cottage had been turned. In the intervening years, Garretson altered his version of events a number of times. In 1997 he told author Bill Nelson, “I did hear a scream. I walked down the hall and into the closet. It had a window facing the pool area and there was a curtain over the window. All the windows in the house were closed that night and the doors were locked. I had lights on everywhere. The whole house was lit up… Then I walked down toward the living room because the three dogs were at the front door barking loudly. I stopped at the bathroom door… I heard footsteps running the other way. Something impressed me again not to move. They could not see me because I was in the hall and there was no window right there. When I saw the front door, I saw the handle… it was turned.” — William Garretson quoted in "Sharon Tate and the Manson Murders" by Greg King.

And in a 1999 interview on E! (Entertainment Television), Garretson admitted that he heard the sound of gunshots and he heard Abigail scream, ‘Stop! I’m already dead…’ He also told them that he saw Patricia Krenwinkle try to open the door to the cottage and then turn around and run away. Even more explosive, he claimed in that 1999 interview that when he hitchhiked down to Sunset Boulevard earlier to get dinner, the man he rode with warned him not to go back to the property! Garretson rode back with a group of female hippies who took him all the way home despite that warning. He tried to get the women to drop him off at other stops along the way, he said, but they insisted on driving him home.

Who was the man who warned Garretson not to go back to Cielo?

Who were the hippies who gave Bill a ride back?

Why did the women Garretson hitched a ride back with, insist on taking him home when he repeatedly asked them to let him out sooner?

Other than Garretson, nobody has corroborated these tales and he suffered from years of PTSD and drug/alcohol abuse after the murders. In the 2000s he also fell prey to a charlatan who claimed she was Sharon and Roman’s baby, taken from her mother’s womb after the killers were there! This "Rosie Polanski" convinced poor, traumatized Garretson that mysterious "men in black" showed up at Cielo Drive, delivered Sharon’s baby post-mortem, let Bill hold her for a few seconds, then wiped his memory clean. She also ran up his phone bill for thousands of dollars in long distance charges, This con artist (who was actually born in New York State) also tried to sink her hooks into the Tate family, who didn’t fall for it. But Garretson did, and that speaks to his credibility.

Garretson died in 2016 of cancer.

When the police arrived that morning and found Garretson the only person alive on the property, they took him, shirtless, into custody. They gave him a lie detector test which is often said to have cleared him but in fact the results were inconclusive. They released him the next day, partly since he had been in custody at the time of the LaBianca murders and partly because, after interviewing him for hours, they didn't think him capable of the murders.

They asked on the test whether he had ever had sex with a man. He said yes. Later they asked whether he was gay. He said no.

^ Forgot to add that the officers who took him into custody and the detectives who interviewed him were all convinced he was under the influence of drugs, which would have affected the lie detector test. But they didn't think he did it, esp. after the LaBianca murders.

R448, Shea was murdered almost three weeks after Tate/LaBianca.

Shampoo was *not* based on Jay Sebring. Jay was a hairstylist for men, only. Warren Beatty's character in Shampoo is based on Jon Peters, and others.

Garretson said yes to the question of homosexual activity (in the past). He said yes. He was mostly likely a boy toy of Altobelli, an actual out gay.

Parent went there that night to hook up with Garretson.

No evidence of this, but pretty clear to everyone. Parent was one of the unluckiest people in history.

[quote] At first, it's all peace love and understanding- free love, working together in harmony. Then it slowly turns- becomes darker as the leader starts becoming more and more abusive and paranoid.

It sounds like organized religion.

If Garretson actually was able to surmise what was going on, imagine what a long, terrifying night he must have had. Crouching in his room, scared to death that the people may not have left, and that he might be found. Not really sure what to make of his later revelations.

Funny that the LaBianca murders did for Garretson what Manson had hoped for Bobby.

[quote] Parent went there that night to hook up with Garretson.

Sez who? There's no evidence, none whatsoever, that it was Parent's intent to go to Cielo Drive to fuck the not very attractive caretaker. It seems to me that's a rumor that was made up in order to portray poor Parent as some kind of sleaze. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but many, many crazy things have been said about the victims of the Manson family. Like Voytek Frykowski was a major drug kingpin. Or that Sharon Tate and Roman Polanski picked up strangers on the Sunset Strip in order to bring them back to the house for orgies. Or that Leno and Rosemary LaBianca were part of some kind of criminal underworld. Crazy things like that.

R480 CUNT FRAU alert

The fact is that Parent has a clock radio sitting on the driver's seat when his body was discovered. You can see it in the crime scene photos. And Garretson told his story before ever seeing the photos. So, really, it checks out.

The guy who played Garretson in the 1976 movie version of Helter Skelter was hot. In real life, he was not attractive in the least. Partly for that reason, I doubt he was anyone's boytoy. Also, when you see him interviewed, he seems slow.

R481 RETARD CUNTFACE alert

Why didn't Manson just kill Tex and Bobby since their drug deals started the whole mess? He could have pinned it on Lotsapoppa and the bikers.

He considered Tex and Bobby to be brothers.

I’m not so sure about the LaBianca murders and the connection to Garretsons release. Police didn’t even connect the Tate and LaBianca murders until months later.

r476 Shampoo was mostly based on Gene Shacove, right down the the motorcyle. He and Beatty were friends and Robert Towne shadowed him for months.

r482 The actor was the director Tom Gries' son.

Marilyn Burns playing Linda Kasabian in Helter Skelter was odd casting. In TCM she actually had a bit of Sharon vibe to her looks.

Someone upthread posted that William Garretson, (in the guest house at the time of the murders) had come up with a bunch of new revelations late in life regarding the case. One of them was that the phone wires had been cut several hours before the attacks. In 1970, he'd testified that Steve Parent made a phone call around 11:45. Of course, this clashes with his new information. I poked around a bit, and found that Parent called his friend Jerrold Friedman.

Friedman was a sci-fi writer- wrote the Tribbles episode of Star Trek. Over on the GoodBooks forum, someone posted a bunch of nasty stuff about Friedman. Suggesting all kinds of salacious things about Friedman, and Parent. Well, Friedman actually responded. I was pretty moved by what he said about Steve:

"Yes, did know Steven Earl Parent. (I never shopped at Jonas Miller Stereo on Wilshire Blvd. I knew him from elsewhere.) No, Steve was not a juvenile delinquent. He was planning to attend college in the fall of 69. He was a remarkably generous person, loved by his parents and his siblings. Yes, we were close. He was one of the best friends I ever had, he made a big difference in my life.

No, Steven Parent did not spend hours installing stereo equipment in my home. I never got any stereo equipment from him.

No, I did not call Steven Parent the night of the murders. He called me. Yes, I asked him to come to my apartment so we could hang out together. No, I did not ask him to meet me at a notorious pickup spot. (I did not even know that was a notorious pickup spot. How does Thomas know?)

Thomas' information is woefully wrong and I can only assume his intention was malicious.

In 1970, I testified in the Manson trial and my testimony is a matter of public record. Anyone wanting to know what actually happened that night can look up my testimony."

He just posted this on July 7. Pretty cool find.

Garretson was cute with a nice little body. There are plenty of pictures out there of him in custody. And he cleaned up well and looked sweet in a suit at the trial.

The body was ok, but the face- hoo faa! And when he spoke, it was a real turn off. He sounded like a slow adult, and uneducated. The kind of person who says "I seen" rather than "I saw."

Parent was a clean-cut high school kid who lived with his parents and, as the poster said above, was planning to attend college. Ultimate wrong-place-wrong-time victim. Had he left just a few minutes earlier, he would have been safe.

R490, I was going to say that that guy didn't write the Tribbles episode. David Gerrold did. Luckily, I almost always fact-check, and to my surprise, I learned they're the same person!

R494 Yeah, he seems like a remarkable guy.

Getting into the weeds of this- I looked a various things, including Garretson's polygraph. The official story is that Rudy Altobeli picked up Garretson hitchhiking, and offered him the job as caretaker. In his polygraph, he states "He asked me to be caretaker, since I got along with his dogs." Suggesting that Garretson was more than just a hitchhiker to Rudy. Later in the polygraph, he's asked if he ever had sex with a man. The answer was yes. And he goes on to explain some situation when he first got to LA, this guy drugged him, blah blah blah. I think he thought of himself as straight, but would be with a guy when it benefited him.

From what David Gerrold wrote, it does seem that he, at least at one time, had had an intimate relationship with Steven Parent. I think Parent used the clock radio as an excuse to visit Garretson, on the hopes of having a hook up. When Parent realized that Garretson wasn't down, he called Gerrold, so see if he could come by. Poor David Gerrold must have fallen asleep waiting for his best friend, and woke up to the horrible news.

[quote] I think Parent used the clock radio as an excuse to visit Garretson, on the hopes of having a hook up.

Why do you think that?

R496 It became clear to me from Gerrod's comments that Steven Parent was gay. He picks up Garretson hitchhiking some time before, and drops him off. Garretson is quoted as saying "I never thought I'd ever seen him again." Steve Parent is 19 years old, it's Friday night at 11:45pm. The notion of going to someone's home at that late hour, and expecting to sell them a clock radio is dubious. Garretson said "I didn't really understand the clock radio thing."

Now, mind you, I don't think it's a bad thing. It's something I absolutely might have done, in my 20s when I first got to Los Angeles. I'm not one of those "they were ALL involved in bad stuff!" people. I'm just considering human nature.

Of course, I realize I could be wrong. This is pure speculation.

Didn't Garretson say Parent asked about the attractive ladies in the main house, and Garretson told him it was Mrs. Polanski and Parent thought he implied Gibby was Roman's mistress. Kind of diffuses the idea Parent was gay, if Garretson was telling the truth.

R498 Yes. And here's the thing- When Parent calls Gerrold, he tells him "you won't believe where I am. At the house of some really famous people!" . I think when Parent found out he was at the home of a famous movie star, and Roman Polanski, he was impressed. Gerrold says in his testimony "I'm not at all impressed with famous people, so I just told him 'tell me about it when you get here'" Kinda sad in itself.

I was the one who above said that the clock radio thing made it unlikely that there was any gayness going on. Only after reading the three men's description of the evening, and about Gerrold's relationship with Parent, did I come to the conclusion that there may have been more going on there.

Two men, I should say. Garretson and Gerrold.

[quote] The notion of going to someone's home at that late hour, and expecting to sell them a clock radio is dubious.

Actually it seems in keeping with the way things were at time; totally casual drop-ins at odd hours, picking up a hitchhiker and offering him a job, friends staying on as "houseguests"; seems to me that's just the way people were behaving in California in the 60s. I myself find it "dubious" that Steven Parent was looking for a hook up. From everything that's known about him there's no evidence he was gay at all.

R501 Yeah, before I read all the transcripts, and David Gerrold's recent post I would've agreed. There's tons of subtext going on there.

Again, I can't say I'm sure, but it seems pretty clear to me.

Maybe they heard about Jay Sebring and Voytek buttfucking the drug dealer and they wanted in?

Haha poor Billy Doyle.

Parent had spent two years in juvenile detention for stealing electronics and then reselling them. He had been around. He knew the score. If he had gone looking to hook up, he probably found Garretson too high or stoned to do anything. The cops the next day all thought Garretson was stoned out of his mind. Some of you seem to have no idea how hook ups worked back then. Yes, you would stop by someone's place for a 20 minute quickie. All the time. It was a different world.

I'm the guy who posted way back that it was common knowledge in the gay community in the 70s that that Parent was there for a hook up, long before it became public speculation. We knew people who knew the people involved. We were in some ways still a small isolated community back then and everyone in the community knew the community's secrets.

Look, David Gerrold is an out 26 year old gay man. 19 year old Steven Parent calls him at 11:45pm, and says he's coming over, and he'll be there at 12:40am. It's not unfair to assume Parent was gay.

^ Should have said "and everyone in the community EVENTUALLY knew the community's secrets." Then as now we were all big gossips but with more awareness and ability to filter out the actual truth I think. We were used to sorting out lies and presenting chosen personas to have a life.

There was an even crazier rumour that CARY GRANT was there that night, hooking up with Garretson, and that they went outside and hid until morning.

R508 Total bullshit strawman argument. Suggesting that the notion that Parent may have been there for a hook up is some kind of outrageous, out of left field, insane theory. It isn't. There's no way to know, but there is circumstantial evidence that suggests it's certainly possible.

Someone else said that rumor was to make Parent look like a sleaze. Ridiculous. It makes him look like a 19 year old gay kid with his own car in Los Angeles.

Parent looked like Buddy Holly

Parent was attractive. As was his friend the sci-fi writer. Bill Garretson- welll not as much.

Garretson seems to have gone nuts in his later years, with the stories of extra groups of hippies telling him not to go back to the house. While it's possible that Manson could have sent out multiple groups to Cielo Drive that night, it's NOT possible that the dimwit followers could have kept their mouths shut about it for decades.

When I heard Garretson say that these were "recovered memories" from meeting "Rosie Polanski" I knew it all had to be BS. Although. I think he did realize something was going down outside that night. And that it was a terrifying night for him.

Also, if he and Garretson were hooking up, think how horrible it would be to know your fuckbuddy was murdered 5 minutes after he left your house and that he wouldn't have been there if not for the hook-up? Add to that what Garretson saw of the murders themselves (didn't he admit later to seeing Krenwinkel stab Folger?), and you've got a major case of PTSD.

One thing that is corroborated is that one of the girls tried to open the locked door. She jiggled the handle. It made the dogs bark, and it stopped. She supposedly went back to Tex Watson and told him that there was no one in the guest house. And, you know the next door neighbors heard the gunshots and screams, but ignored them. It had to have been a horrific night for Garretson, and he finally falls asleep at dawn, and he wakes up to police rifles in his face. .

If you look at the layout of the house, you'll see the guest house was on the back of the property, so if he looked out the window, he might now have seen the bodies on the lawn. In his polygraph, he said he couldn't remember if he let the dogs out at any point.

r515,Terrifying, then he gets paraded for the press as the guilty party. That has to fuck you up.

As they were walking him off the property, a policeman pointed at him, and said "That's the guy that did it."

r517, I didn't know that, what a fucking bastard! Was he trying to get his own moment of fame ala LeeHarveyOswald? I bet he never got disciplined either. shit.

I meant the cop in r518

[quote] Someone else said that rumor was to make Parent look like a sleaze. Ridiculous. It makes him look like a 19 year old gay kid with his own car in Los Angeles.

Again it needs to be said: WHY IS STEVEN PARENT ASSUMED TO BE GAY? Because he went to see Garretson and Garretson had said he'd had sex with a man, so that automatically means Parent was there for homosex? I have no idea why some queens are determined to make Steven Parent a closet gay who went cruising for sex in hopes of a hookup. There's no evidence at all to suggest he was into sex with guys.

[quote] I'm the guy who posted way back that it was common knowledge in the gay community in the 70s that that Parent was there for a hook up, long before it became public speculation. We knew people who knew the people involved. We were in some ways still a small isolated community back then and everyone in the community knew the community's secrets.

How the hell would "the gay community" know ANTHING about Steven Parent? And "we knew people who knew people involved?" WHO exactly was "involved?" Are you saying that "the gay community" knew everything about Steven Parent and William Garretson? That sound like incredible bullshit. Like "the gay community" was some kind of secret underground society that knew everything about anybody.

R520 who the fuck are YOU? Why are you acting like it's an insult to call him gay you homophobic scumbag?

Look ASSHOLE, there is circumstantial evidence, like the fact that a 19 year old kid is going to visit a 26 year old out gay guy in Hollywood at 12:40am Friday night/Saturday morning.

Do I say I know for a fact? NO. Do I think it's possible? Absolutely, you ignorant scumfuck. Go spread your subtle hatred of gay men elsewhere.

"Do I say I know for a fact? NO. Do I think it's possible? Absolutely, you ignorant scumfuck. Go spread your subtle hatred of gay men elsewhere."

Listen, you yammering, fuckhead retard, NOWHERE did I say being GAY was a BAD thing. I'm just amazed that Parent is depicted as GAYGAYGAY simply because he went over to see some guy who happened to have had sex with a guy. And that really is all the evidence there is: that he went over to see Garretson at night (ooh, at night! He must have wanted SEX!) and Garretson said he had sex with another man at some time. And that is no real evidence at all. Doesn't mean the two of them had sex at all.

Although he wasn't hooked up to the machine at the time, at some point during Garretson's polygraph he was asked if he was gay, and then asked if he had sex with any of the victims to which he responded, "No."

I’ve never been able to get clear answers to these questions:

1. Where was Parent’s car when he was shot? Was it inside the gate in the courtyard?

2. Was the gate open the entire evening? Those kind of gates either have a call box that rings in the house, or require someone to physically swing the gate open. Who opened the gate for all the visitors that night?

3. I assume Parent was shot after he had visited with Garretson and after he returned to his car. If he was trying to sell the clock radio, and it was still on the car seat, then Garretson must have either have not bought it, or was too stoned to follow through. Does testimony back that up?

4. Did the possibly stoned Garretson walk Parent back to his car after they met? If so, how did he not hear the shot(s) that killed Parent? Did Parent just sit in his car until the killers arrived?

1) The car was inside the gate.

2) I assume Garretson opened the gate and it was still open when Parent returned to his car.

3) IIRC Garretson didn't want the clock radio. Possibly because it was stolen. Parent dealt in stolen electronics.

4) Parent had just gotten into his car when the killers arrived. He had the worst timing in the world. If Garretson heard the shots he was probably too stoned or scared to investigate. Good thing he didn't.

One reason I can think of why Parent was over there at night trying to sale a clock radio is maybe he needed cash in a hurry. There were no ATMs in 1969. If the banks were closed and you ran out of cash you had to get creative.

[quote] [R386], We can't leave out Chappaquiddick, July 18, 1969.

Chappaquiddick is one of those 1969 major events that doesn't get a lot of attention like the Manson murders does. Back in 2018, People Magazine and one of those podcast companies produced a podcast on Chappaquiddick called Cover-Up. It was a well done and compelling podcast where a People magazine writer and producer spent hours researching different rumors and theories about the accident and talking with people who were connected to the case. The podcast was better than that bland Jason Clarke/Kate Mara movie. I fell down the Chappaquiddick rabit hole and read a few books on the case and read about the rumors about the third passenger theories.

R527, It was a landmark moment that ultimately prevented Ted Kennedy from becoming President. Hopefully, one of the books you read was Leo Damore's "Senatorial Privilege".

The Kennedys made Leo's life miserable after his book was published. Basically blacklisted, he became destitute and committed suicide on the day the authorities came to remove him from his foreclosed home.

Whether Parent and Garretson were buddies or fuckbuddies is really immaterial to the murders. It's not about what Parent did inside the guest house, it's about what happened to him after he left the guest house.

But it's a natural human response to want to explain. Why did Parent go to see Garretson? What EXACTLY led to this most unfortunate events for Parent? The clock radio thing seems odd, but that might be all there is to the story. Or, there may have been other factors at play. I heard an interesting interview with Parent's girlfriend last night. She stated "We spent a lot of time together, but he really wasn't very physical. My friends would constantly be making out, and I'd ask him, 'Steve why don't we do that?' He just wasn't very interested." That is very interesting stuff (to me) that has nothing to do with the murders. It may be a portrait of closeted gay life in my city 50 years ago. I live that stuff.

I'm fascinated by the question "who were these ordinary people who got swept up in extraordinary events?" How were they like me, or different from me. What would I have done?

R526 certainly possible. Parent had a strange habit of stealing clock radios. But, he may have been over it by age 19.

R525 Garretson was kind of incredulous about Parent's whole visit. It seems particularly about the clock. It was kind of like "why would he think I would want to buy a clock?" Though, he was polite to Parent. They had a beer. Parent plugged in the radio, and used his watch to set the correct time. It was unplugged when he left at 12:45, which helped Bugliosi establish a timeline.

There were crime scene photos of the living room, and I found them gross. There were cigarette butts and empty, crushed packages of L&Ms all over a coffee table. It just looked trashy.

What's funny is, Garretson discovered the phone lines had been cut at dawn. Why'd he try to use the phone? To call and see what time it was! So he could've used the clock after all.

If Parent were gay and looking for action, the clock radio could have been an excuse. Show up with the clock, send out the signals, and if Garretson isn't DTF, leave whilst saving face.

R533 Exactly! I posited that upthread. Because it was exactly the move I might have made when I was 22 in Los Angeles horny on a Friday night.

Parent realizes Garretson isn't down. So he calls Jerrold Friedman, who IS down. He tells him he'll be there at 12:40am. Sadly, he never makes it.

I wonder if Sharon would have followed her pedophile husband to France to avoid prison after he raped that child.

All indications are that the marriage wouldn't have lasted very long after the birth of the baby.

As someone else pointed out, I'd rather live next door to a Muslim family than ANY of the human garbage and filthpigs that stormed the Capitol on Jan 6.

Sorry wrong thread.

R538, Maybe not.

Seriously, how much was a used clock radio worth in 1969 . . . $20?

Parent left at 12:15, not 12:45. As he was driving down the driveway, he encountered Tex and girls, who had just broken in after Tex had cut the phone lines. The murders were over by 12:45.

^ had cut the telephone lines to the house from a telephone pole in the street in near the house..

If anyone is curious- I found this video of Andrea Barber, who played Kimmy on Full House, shooting the cover of her book at Jeff Franklin's house, which was built on the property of Cielo Drive where the Tate house used to be.

Olivia Hussey moved in a few WEEKS after the murders. She said she was never really scared and in fact, in a weird way, it felt like the safest house in L.A. because they installed a direct line to the police. Of course, she apparently wasn't so safe from Christopher Jones.

Rudi Altobeli moved into the main house, and Terry Melcher actually joined him there for a few months, which is crazy. I believe Hussy moved into the guest house.