Would you invite a parent’s “affair child” to your wedding?

Is the "child" an adult? Does Friend have a relationship with the child? Is it possible to invite one to the church and the other to the reception? I mean, there are lots of points of conflict in families. Sometimes people fall out and won't be in the same room together. Whatever. It seems like you aren't giving us enough info on this, you're just being judgey.

It all depends on her relationship with the child. Whether legitimate or not, the child is her half-sibling. If she's close to the child, absolutely she should invite the child--it is her wedding, not her mother's.

Yes, the affair child is an adult and has a friendship with my friend, which I also think shows a stunning lack of loyalty.

What more info do you want?

Is the "affair child" actually a child, a youth? If not people need to move on with their lives, no sense in dwelling on something that happened ages ago. The adult who was a result of an affair has feelings too, I wouldn't ignore a blood brother or sister because my father was a fuck up.

Why are you blaming and punishing the child for something the father did?

R4, the affair baby is an adult. How can the poor mother be expected to “move on” when the physical manifestation of her husband’s betrayal is right in her face? I think it’s appalling.

R5, her existence is a slap in the face to the mother.

The friend has a relationship with her half sibling and wants to share an important family occasion with this sibling. I find that commendable to include the sibling and give this person a sense of family.

If mom cannot deal with this after some 20 + years of having time to process the break down of her relationship, then she should stay home.

[quote] Yes, the affair child is an adult and has a friendship with my friend, which I also think shows a stunning lack of loyalty.

It's not the love child's fault she was the product of an affair with your friend's father. It sounds like your friend has a very healthy and mature attitude. At least she didn't invite the father's former paramour. Now, in most cases, that would be tacky. Although I know of at least one example of the wife of a man who had an affair who became friends with the former lover after the affair was over, but after she had divorced the husband (not for the affair, but for spousal abuse).

[quote][R4], the affair baby is an adult. How can the poor mother be expected to “move on” when the physical manifestation of her husband’s betrayal is right in her face? I think it’s appalling.

She absolutely should be expected to 'move on' decades after the extramarital affair, or split from her husband. The 'physical manisfestation' of the affair is a grown adult human being, not a thing, with feelings and needs of their own. If they have a good relationship with their half-siblings, and said siblings want to invite them to family events, the mother needs to toughen up or move on herself - literally.

From the way you are describng it and the fact that the family is upset about it this sounds like a huge slap in the face to her mother. The fact that she is pissed at you despite the fact that she asked you your opinion makes her sound like a real asshole. She sounds like she isn't thrilled with her mother and wants to rub her mother's nose in her husbands affair at her child's wedding of all places. Families are such a nightmare. Stay away. Your 'friend' who gets so easily pissed at you and likes to cause drama isn't worth it.

What the fuck is wrong with you, OP?

You are blaming the wrong person.

To add to my response at r10: is the cheating father still alive, is HE invited to the wedding? Perhaps he should be disinvited, as he is the main cause of grief to his long-suffering mate/wife.

Blame the correct people here, OP.

[quote] How can the poor mother be expected to “move on” when the physical manifestation of her husband’s betrayal is right in her face?

Is the husband is question going to be present?

How does the bride’s Mother feel about this?

R11, my friend doesn’t think it’s a big deal and thinks her mother should “get over it” and just accept the bastard girl’s presence.

The father is still alive and will be at the wedding. The mother understands that my friend wants her father at the wedding, but is extremely anxious and will be taking sedatives that day.

The affair child being there is just a bridge too far for her.

I have been in a similar situation, except that my half sibling was born after my parents marriage ended to the woman responsible for the marriage ending.

My mother hates the other woman and despises the sibling which is understandable given the acrimonious end to their marriage but it’s not the child’s fault and any relationship between siblings should be respected by other family members. There is a difference between acceptance and respecting the wishes of others.

[quote] How does the bride’s Mother feel about this?

She (quite understandably) hates the affair child and is extremely upset.

Tell her to invite the bastard and disinvite the bitch mother.

No r18, it's not "understandable" to hate the affair child. She likely doesn't know this person, who may be a very fine person. It's irrational to feel that way, quit normalizing it.

She may be very uncomfortable around the affair (now grown) child, and wish to avoid them to maintain her own stability, but that's something different entirely than hatred and based on her own issues.

Frankly the mother sounds like a basket case. Still carrying all this anger and neuroses decades after an affair -whether a child resulted or not - is simply odd and not healthy at all. She should be in therapy.

Does the mother have a Man? Husband, boyfriend, etc? Because even if he is not a full blown boyfriend she needs to bring him. That's what I would have suggested. Tell Momma to bring a Man and have fun and fuck the rest. Why spend all those hours at a gathering, your own daughter's marriage, and be miserable, make others miserable and make it all about you. Mom has issues. I'd have divorced her ass too.

Friend’s mother needs to get over it. She sounds like a real drama Queen. Sedatives so she can be at her child’s wedding. *eyeroll*

The bastard girl wouldn’t exist if the father hadn’t slept with another woman. She’s literally his affair in human form. Frankly, I can’t believe she would have the nerve to show up at this wedding, but some people have no shame.

[quote]The father is still alive and will be at the wedding. The mother understands that my friend wants her father at the wedding, but is extremely anxious and will be taking sedatives that day.

This underscores the point about the mother being neurotic. An adjusted person does not need to self-medicate to be near a former mate at a family event, unless that ex threatened or abused them to such an extreme that they feel justified fear. Having an affair, while hurtful, does not rise to this level.

[quote]The affair child being there is just a bridge too far for her.

Then she should stay home. Solves the problem. It's not her wedding and she doesn't need to be there.

Jerry Hall, long suffering ex of Mick Jagger, has his love child (conceived/born during their marriage) at all weddings and family events. Her youngest son just got married at her UK estate, and his half-sibling was there with everyone else.

Mama sounds like a narcissist.

As someone else said, it's her wedding, not her mother's. She can invite or not invite who she wants.

Reddit is all about not blaming the child for the mistakes of the parent when it comes to affair babies.

At the same time, it also insists that it's the parent of the affair baby to facilitate a relationship with any half-siblings and the partner who was cheated on has NO responsibility to that child other than basic common courtesy - no financial obligation, no need to include the child in anything.

Personally, I think if you're going to invite you the father who actually had the affair, it's so much a bigger slap in the face than it is to invite the affair baby.

[quote]She’s literally his affair in human form.

No, she is not.

No, the affair baby has no valid connection to the family, whereas the father does. The affair baby literally only exists because of infidelity.

Ummm, yes. I would, AFTER clearing it with the family.

Right guys?

I have one of these. A “secret affair” crotchfruit sibling.

😂😂😂

So the details are somewhat fuzzy & for sure obscured, yet I know enough to know that my stepmom banned my half bastard brother from my half legitimate brother’s wedding.

But she’s a bitch that way, so not a surprise?

He reached out to me back in the late 90s, or early 00s, via email. He even attached a pic!

As soon as I opened that j.peg, I said to my then boyfriend, “Oh yeah. That’s a brother of mine, for sure!”

He said he wanted to come to LA and go to film school. I responded by telling him to fly on out to stay with me for a few weeks, and get the lay of the land, check things out.

Never heard from him again, sadly. I respected his privacy, and never harangued him with more offers. But the offer was sincere and would still stand today!

My legit brother’s wedding was a disaster worthy reality tv Bridezilla, episode, by the way. The person who should have been banned from that wedding was his crazy ass wife.

This sounds like a case for elopement! Save everyone's feelings and a lot of money too.

Mom is indeed a Drama Queen to be carrying on so long after her husband's affair, and visiting her wrath on the blameless bastard. If I were the bride, I'd make my half-sister my maid of honor and have my dad walk me down the aisle.

R28, then what is she? Frankly, her very life is a sin. And I’m glad that R24 is so well adjusted, but the rest of us aren’t so lucky and may need a little something to get through the day. I hope the poor mother boycotts this wedding. It’s a travesty.

[quote] No, the affair baby has no valid connection to the family

Uhm... half-sibling? According to you all friends and plus-ones should stay home too.

What did the mother do to drive away the father? Is she a raging cunt?

Inappropriate. Your ding dong friend is doing this only to rub her mother’s face in the affair. Shameful

[quote] her existence is a slap in the face to the mother.

I suggest something less esoteric and more tangible.

[quote] Uhm... half-sibling? According to you all friends and plus-ones should stay home too.

No, they have valid connections to the family. The bastard “sibling” does not. She was conceived in infidelity.

Clearly this love child ended this woman's marriage which caused her enormous trauma. So she hasn't gotten over it. We all relive traumas that happened to us long ago and we do not in any way want to relive them. So this woman wants her mother to relive this trauma at her wedding. This is fucked up. Unless she hates her mother. Other people in the family are upset as you say and they know a lot more than we do. You've told her it's a bad idea. So it really sounds like a bad idea. This bastard child if she is a decent person would decline the invitation unless she hate's the mother too.

'Mom is indeed a Drama Queen' This coming from somebody on DL of all places where terrible unforgiveable betrayals cause us lifelong pain.

Honestly, the whore the father cheated with should’ve had an abortion. She only had the baby because she wanted to use it to lure the father away from his marriage.

'hates'

Sounds like a great idea if you feed on other people's negative energy. What a feast you'll have!

[quote]Would you invite a parent’s “affair child” ?

Affair child? If my father had betrayed my Mother like that, HE would have been out of my life, let alone some bastard child.

[quote] Frankly, her very life is a sin. (and then in a later reply) No, they have valid connections to the family. The bastard “sibling” does not. She was conceived in infidelity.

Oh I see how it is, OP. This is a sham thread isn't it? No one who is that much of a Bible thumper is posting on DL.

She asked for your opinion, you gave it, and now she's upset because she didn't like it. A tale as old as time...

I’m not a “Bible thumper.” I was being poetic.

You were being a bull shitter. But carry on with your gameplay.

Yeah, I like how the cheating father is invited to the wedding, and the mother has no problem with it. That’s surprising, actually.

If the father had married the affair partner, would the child be more welcome? They’d still be a product of “sin”!

So it sounds like the problem is that the child wasn’t the product of a MARRIAGE and unworthy for that.

It’s 2021.

A bit OT but I've noticed that hating the child of someone you also hate is extremely common. My best friend's paternal grandmother absolutely hated my friend's mother. He had to live with her for most of his childhood and she treated him like utter trash. He was given heavy chores starting at age 8, like washing the dishes everyday for his six other family members who never helped, cleaning the entire kitchen, and doing laundry for his family while keeping his room perfectly spic and span and going to school. If he missed a spot, there was hell to pay. Her 20-year-old daughter (my friend's aunt) lived there too, and she never had to lift a finger to clean or help around the house. My friend said that she was also filthy, her bedroom was a pigsty, and his grandma would go in there and clean it for her. There was also lots of emotional and physical abuse, of course. He hates his dear old granny to this day.

frau thread

Look, my friend doesn’t know this, but I have one of these “affair siblings.” It tore my mother apart. She was never, ever the same. I wrote this “sibling” a letter when I was a teenager and told her what her very existence did to my mother. I told her that if she had any decency, she would kill herself.

My father sent me “up the country” for a year after that, but I still don’t think I was wrong.

Frau News

[quote] If the father had married the affair partner, would the child be more welcome?

No, she would not be more welcome. It has nothing to do with marriage, though people who have babies out of wedlock are trashy.

Women who think of their husbands as private property are nuts (as is any person who thinks this way). Hating the child of an affair is irrational, and it's based on the irrational view that your mate is your possession who must never wander from your presence, and must be fully controlled. Its based on the irrationality that the affair child 'embodies' the mate/spouse being taken away, or being disobedient or uncontrollable.

People in loving, realistic marriages and relationships know that mistakes happen, and when they do you don't blame others outside the relationship nevermind innocent babies.

[quote] Frankly, her very life is a sin.

OP, why did you tip your hand so obviously? You started okay, although "affair child" is pretty ridiculous. but then you had to overplay your hand.

Flames and Freaks.

All of this could've been avoided if women understand that men are completely different than women. They 100x more sexual than them, it's like breathing. They can't help it. The fact that they won't accept this causes so many problems.

R34, my stepmom isn’t a raging cunt, however, she’s just a cunt, which is more than enough.

She had a stick so far up her ass all of her life, that I oftentimes wondered why she ever married my mom.

She was never happy, never satisfied with the life my dad provided, and constantly belittled the man, eluding and suggesting that his back breaking efforts were never “enough”.

The man was an immigrant who came to this country LEGALLY, for all of you xenophobic cunts who care about these detail.

He spoke zero English, and by the time he croaked from his alcoholism, had purchased/sold 3 gas stations, one full service mechanic shoo with an Autobody shoo on the other side of it, one townhouse, one house in the suburbs, one cabin in the Catskills, a house in Miami, a beach house in the Dominican Republic which he had constructed from the ground up, paid for my brother’s full education, his wedding, and for my stepmom’s retirement condo in Tampa.

She also finagled my father’s ENTIRE retirement annuity, which she then gifted to my brother worth over 200K, plus a bunch of other money he had stashed away, without offering me a veritable sum.

She offered to send me a check for a grand. I replied to her to keep it. Didn’t speak to her for almost 5 years after that, and barely speak to my brother either. And not because he is a greedy little bastard taking after his own mother’s heart, but because he and my stepmom treated my father’s live in girlfriend who was a resident of HIS and THEIR home, worse than one would treat an abandoned, mangy mutt scouring the alley ways for a morsel.

After my stepmom divorced my dad and had been set up for life with the 50/50 distributions of said divorce, and after he had unexpectedly fallen critically ill from the boozing, both flew out to the Dominican Republic, waited for him to finally croak, and ran up on this poor woman who lived my father and took care of him the way a codependent, yet just as valid as any loving partner would, and proceeded to tell her that she had 30 minutes to take only her clothes, shoes, and personal effects with her, EXCLUDING any sentimental pictures of the two or mementos which had been part of their life together, and got her the fuck outta there.

I had even asked my brother to please send me my dad’s REAL Rolex, because I suspected he would fuck her over this way, certainly his mother would, and I figured I could drive to Jacksonville, FL, and sell the watch to a jeweler and send her the money. I had plenty of it at that time, and didn’t need that watch more than she did.

Nope.

The evil cunt of his mother had zero mercy. My father’s girlfriend called me from a neighbor’s house in tears, telling me that she was destitute. I quietly made arrangements to get her the funds necessary for her to get a small single and a few months worth of groceries, utilities, etc., sans my dad’s Rolex, which I never mentioned to my brother again.

People make horrible choices and many DO regret those irreversible mistakes. But how does that justify treating other human beings like absolute shit, and then pilfering his money away from his beneficiary, and the woman he chose to live with after YOU divorced him?

My brother is a brainwashed sycophant who as much as I hate to admit it, as I do genuinely love him very much and would deny him nothing back then or now, as he is still my brother whom I always protected, BUT yeah… he’s a selfish bastard just like his mother.

And that’s why we haven’t overcome that whole deal back then. You don’t do that to a woman who legally had no recourse to her partner’s assets. And both he and my stepfather preyed on my father and deliberately exploited his vulnerability with booze, in order to take whatever he had left by the time they both flew out to that island to steal the rest of his shit from his daughter and his longtime, live in partner.

Fuck him. Both of them. 🖕🏽

I never understand blaming the other woman or the stray baby when a man cheats.

Correction:

“And both he and my stepmom preyed on my father and deliberately exploited his vulnerability..”

I have a friend who despises his half brother who was the product of one of the father's affairs. My friend was a teenager when the half brother was born and his mother filed for divorce once his father confessed that one of his mistresses was pregnant. The dad and the half brother's mother didn't marry. A year later, he married another woman who had also been having an affair with. My brother despises that woman as well. The father's second wife hated was unhappy that she got stuck married to a guy who had to pay child support for four kids from his first marriage and the one kid from the affair. My friend doesn't have a good relationship with his dad. When it came to graduation events, his wedding, and other things he doesn't invite his half brother or the second wife to the events.

Fuck! R58’s correction was for R56, not R57.

Apologies.

[quote] The mother understands that my friend wants her father at the wedding, but is extremely anxious and will be taking sedatives that day.

I hope that mother doesn't shop at Aldi's.

You can tell the Fraus in this thread by their dissertation-length posts.

Don't knock it, OP - it's one more wedding gift!

R59, it’s silly and fucked up.

What? Do we as women who are married to men who cheat, or who are the legitimate daughters of the cheating dad, who cheated on our moms, owners of our father’s sperm?

Clearly not.

So why the fuck is the child who is the product of an affair suddenly held responsible for something they also do not own?

Cheating fucking happens. I am not into it myself, and for whatever reasons cannot do it to someone, and have been devastated when it was done to me.

But a baby? Nope. I’m not taking that shot out on an innocent baby. Not even if his mom.

This is exactly what my brother and stepmom did, R59. And they’re both nasty little cunts for refusing to get over an affair that’s whatever it is, yet also carry that particular resent over onto an innocent child.

Dump the husband, but do not be a major grade a cunt, and tear the child to shreds which DOES mean, swallowing your fucking pride and treating the mother with respect and courtesy of the affair sibling wants to attend family events with the father’s side of the family, INCLUDING with the minor children that one shared with the cheating husband as both of your legitimate kids.

It’s only right, and while ur sucks, this ones requires reaching deep inside oneself and seeing what the fuck kne is really made of.

Think you’re a decent person? This right here is the situation that’s gonna put you to the test, and now you’re gonna find out.

And yes. I’m a feminist and fuck any of y’all that come for me on this one, as my cheating father’s mistress from his second marriage had to turn to me, his daughter from his first, in order to get help, while his other kid and 2nd ex wife humiliated her AFTER the divorce from the 2nd wife, AND banned my affair crotchfruit sibling from a previous affair from my brother’s wedding, wanted absolutely nothing to do with him, and I was the only one in that poor kid’s father’s side of OUR father’s family, who treated him with the courtesy and respect he so rightfully deserved then and now.

This enraged me. There’s no room for entitlement or raging anger when it comes to kids.

Common sense:

[quote]Whether legitimate or not, the child is her half-sibling. If she's close to the child, absolutely she should invite the child--it is her wedding, not her mother's.

[quote]Why are you blaming and punishing the child for something the father did?

[quote]It's not the love child's fault she was the product of an affair with your friend's father.

[quote]Personally, I think if you're going to invite you the father who actually had the affair, it's so much a bigger slap in the face than it is to invite the affair baby.

The bride’s sister hasn’t done anything wrong, the bride’s father is the one at fault. Why punish an innocent woman for something [italic]their[/italic] father did?

[quote]this woman wants her mother to relive this trauma at her wedding. This is fucked up. Unless she hates her mother. […] This bastard child if she is a decent person would decline the invitation unless she hate's the mother too.

If she hated her mother she wouldn’t have given it a second thought, obviously she cares enough to reflect and talk to you about it.

Mother of the bride needs to see past herself for one day… and seek therapy to deal with hating an innocent person for their mere existence.

Stop!!

She doesn't hate the child I assume but she doesn't want to see it either. Especially at her daughter's wedding. A reminder of a miserable life altering moment in her life.

'obviously she cares enough to reflect and talk to you about it.' And then instead of reflecting about it getting all pissy when she doesn't like the answer. Sounds like nobody wants this daughter there not even OP. Clearly this is being done to torture the mother. You've got to be kidding with the get over it routine. I've heard that divorce in some cases is like the death of someone that you love very dearly like a child. Some people don't get over these things and to say that she should just stop being a drama queen is dim and insensitive beyond belief.

R67, is it "insensitive" to say that she should not think only of herself? Even if her husband had died, rather than having an affair, it happened years ago and there are other people affected by it. Learning to look beyond her own grief in an effort to help others isn't "getting over it", it's trying to be a healthy, mature human being instead of a self-obsessed mental case for the rest of her life.

[quote] She doesn't hate the child

I’m sure she does. My mother hated my father’s affair baby and so did I.

Are any of the groomsmen fuckable?

Jesus Christ. Some people will do ANYTHING for a new Crockpot!

This is OP's thesis project for his Soap Opera Writing 201 class.

[quote] I've heard that divorce in some cases is like the death of someone that you love very dearly like a child. Some people don't get over these things and to say that she should just stop being a drama queen is dim and insensitive beyond belief.

It can be very painful, of course. But a divorce is between the two people in the marriage, and no one else. Dragging other people into it, blaming them for the pain, does no good and isn't healthy.

Who is the mother - Lady Stark? Exacting a life of revenge on an innocent child?

Some women are extremely territorial. Some aren’t. I’ve concluded that the very territorial ones are not happy people, because you can’t own another person.

My friend’s mom was left with an infant (my friend) while her feckless husband took off and impregnated another woman. And another, and another. My friend’s mother befriended the mother of her son’s half-sister. She also mothered her boyfriend’s children. She was a very loving and tender person when it came to children. And she had a generous tolerance to the women who might have been her enemies if she’d taken a different worldview. She was happy that her only child had a (half) sibling, and they are close even now in middle age. She always wanted a big family, so she gathered everyone in. Lovely woman, may she rest in peace.

Actually, now that I think about it, the women with just one child seem to be more willing to forgive and be friends. Hmmm.

OP, does Wedding Mom have just the one child?

I agree with OP. Rude and disloyal. I see a lot of references to an " innocent child". But this individual is not a crying 5 year old being locked out of the family home. They are evidently an adult, whom the bride's mother clearly does not want to see.

If I were the half-sibling, I’d send my regrets and a gift. Bow out gracefully, and then celebrate some other time.

I’d hate to think my presence was that aggravating to a senile old lady, bless her heart.

[quote] OP, does Wedding Mom have just the one child?

No, she has two other children. They’re not happy about it either, but they aren’t going to pieces like their mother.

[quote] but they aren’t going to pieces like their mother

Would that it were so. Momma needs to a nice long rest at Shady Pines.

[quote] I see a lot of references to an " innocent child".

Again, she is the affair itself in human form. I was beside myself when I found out that my own father had stepped out and knocked up some jezebel. It destroyed my mother and I felt a fierce loyalty to her.

Some can’t understand it. I wrote my father’s affair child a letter and told her she should kill herself, but my friend is inviting her father’s demon seed to her wedding! It’s outrageous.

OP/R80 - You seem exceptionally involved in the family matters of your friend. Odd.

Not to mention emotionally invested.

R80– you’re the one that needs to kill themselves

R83, I’ll beat the shit out of you, you sad little asshole. Drop dead, shit stain!

I have been at a wedding where the father of the Groom somehow got his mistress in at the reception. He was of course there with his wife. So awkward and bizarre.

R85, especially when the mistress starting blowing him in the pew.

The posters with so much hate for innocent children make me very sad. I had a close friend whose father had a love child and my friend and her siblings were terrible to this child, just cold and rude when they were around her (their dad ended up marrying the affair). It was one of the reasons I ended up distancing myself from her, I cant imagine being so horrible to a child, and an innocent family member also.

This isn't a child. It's an adult who should be sensitive to the situation and bow out if it is going to cause the mother so much pain. But clearly the bride doesn't give a flying fuck about her mother so why should she? And it doesn't sound like the mother gave any kind of ultimatum like if you have her there I'm not coming. In fact the mother is a lot more tolerant than I am. There are people I never want to see again and if they were at an event I would avoid it like the plague.

If I were Mom no screaming, no arguments, no demands. If I'm paying for ANYTHING..reception, dress, shoes, flowers, cake, padre, toothpicks, I'd cancel the checks. See how that works out.

If not paying for anything, then I'd just make it abundantly clear Disrespectful Daughter & her husband are out of the will..Nada, nothing, bubkiss, jack shit, goose egg, not farthing, not even a fart. I'd write it all out in their card, with no money in it. Then when I die I would have it read at my funeral about this about this ingrato. about her getting nothing & why, laying it out in lavender...All I did for her & how she stabbed me in my heart.. But, I'm Italian so there you go.

R89, you silly bitch.

Thanks for the laugh! 🤣🤣🤣

This is so easy. If the bride has a relationship her sibling, she can invite the sibling. Mom's feelings are irrelevant. Period.

Mom's feeling are irrelevent despite many people including OP think this is a bad idea. And she asked OP what he thought! What a sensitive soul you are. This bridezilla sounds like a nightmare. I wonder who's paying for the wdding?

#89 Italian Mama here. My feelings irrelevant only if Ingratiana & husband have lots of dough, lots & lots & lots. And very thick skins. Even if they don't come to my funeral where all will be rehashed. Can they ignore all the clucking & dragging from all the relations & friends no matter where they go, no matter what they do. Also the evil eye that my sister will put on them for their disrespect.

Let’s get real here. Frau OP is the mother. If I were your daughter, I’d invite my half-siblings mother and seat her at the family table

#89 Italian Mama again. Yes, Be Grateful, be very grateful you are not the Ingratiana. To even find anyone who can lift the evil eye my sister would put upon you..Good Luck. The evil will follow you & yours till you die screaming in misery. Be glad you are not my Disrespectful daughter.

How sad your Mama must be to see the things you write,. She must say, How could I have carried such a child in my womb & have given birth to such a creature...