A Room with A View (1985)

She was in a muddle.

R1 Who was? Lucy Honeychurch?

Terror came over her, and she lied again. She made the long, convincing speech that she had made to Mr. Beebe, and intended to make to the world when she announced that her engagement was no more. He heard her in silence, and then said: "My dear, I am worried about you. It seems to me"--dreamily; she was not alarmed--"that you are in a muddle."

She shook her head.

"Take an old man's word; there's nothing worse than a muddle in all the world. It is easy to face Death and Fate, and the things that sound so dreadful. It is on my muddles that I look back with horror--on the things that I might have avoided. We can help one another but little. I used to think I could teach young people the whole of life, but I know better now, and all my teaching of George has come down to this: beware of muddle. Do you remember in that church, when you pretended to be annoyed with me and weren't? Do you remember before, when you refused the room with the view? Those were muddles--little, but ominous--and I am fearing that you are in one now." She was silent. "Don't trust me, Miss Honeychurch. Though life is very glorious, it is difficult." She was still silent. "'Life' wrote a friend of mine, 'is a public performance on the violin, in which you must learn the instrument as you go along.' I think he puts it well. Man has to pick up the use of his functions as he goes along--especially the function of Love." Then he burst out excitedly; "That's it; that's what I mean. You love George!" And after his long preamble, the three words burst against Lucy like waves from the open sea.

"But you do," he went on, not waiting for contradiction. "You love the boy body and soul, plainly, directly, as he loves you, and no other word expresses it. You won't marry the other man for his sake."

"How dare you!" gasped Lucy, with the roaring of waters in her ears. "Oh, how like a man!--I mean, to suppose that a woman is always thinking about a man."

"But you are."

....

The screenplay is a bit different.

Is this on Amazon Prime or Neyflix?

R6 I bought the Blu Ray on the Criterion Collection. But I have attached a special link ;)

I want to like the trailer at R4 and to want to see the movie, but I think it's really something to be enjoyed intramurally among the British, who seem to enjoy sending themselves up. Doesn't quite appeal to me.

It's funny to see Samuel West in it, who played Leonard Bast in "Howard's End."

Daniel Day Lewis was the weak link. He thought he was in a Monty Python film.

Still my favorite. Saw it when I was like 12 and became enamoured with Helena Bonham Carter, but over the years have grown to love the little nuances and all the actors and Puccini.

I should reread the book though. I read it around 12 too and probably missed a lot.

R9 NOOOO. He was amazing in this. Cecil is so full of himself he is a joke. Day-Lewis was my second favorite performances, besides Mother-Fuckin' Maggi Smith.

Come and have a bathe!

I used to think Daniel Day Lewis was such a great actor, but, with some exceptions, he's always got that Meryl Streep "click-click-click" thing going on for me when I watch him now.

The lovely Helena Bonham with her perfect little foxxy face and pre raphaelite hair is worth every minute of this sometimes twee little movie. Julian Sands is not too swoony. Later he would date Jodie Foster!

Bonham Carter is the Sandy Dennis of British film. Always something a little off in her characters.

I saw this when it came out and I saw My Beautiful Launderette right around the same time. What a lovely contrast for Daniel Day-Lewis

Both films were fabulous.

Julian Sands and the Italian carriage driver are worth it.

Helena had just finished Lady Jane and did not want to play another costume drama. Alas for her she had more to do! She saw herself as a rocker and punker and wanted contemporary, hard, sexually charged characters to play. She was great in Howard's End.

R18 The entire cast is extremely talented.

One of my favorite movies! And I still have the deluxe promotional calendar they handed out at the theater when I went to see it in '85. Julian Sands is September and he's gorgeous!

This movie literally changed my life. It was a late night movie and my family was in the sleep. I was a young teenager and when the movie was over I just cried and cried. I don’t know why, but I did. There was something in it, but I still don’t know what. I was like Cecyl Vyce a serious outsider, bullied at school. I decided not to live my life like that and decided to change and to be more like Freddy Honeychuch and George Emerson. And I did. I learnt to open and speak up and to be around people. Stupid to change your life after a movie? Maybe, but it is the truth.

Mary!

[quote]This movie literally changed my life.

This movie and "Maurice" were the first two times I saw a penis on screen.

So in a way this movie changed my life too.

Judi Dench talks about a scene where her character goes mad in the town square. Apparently, she filmed some of it, but it was scrapped because HBC wasn’t feeling well and didn’t want to film her part. For anyone who has read the book, why does her character go mad in the town square?

Daniel Day Lewis must be the luckiest person ever. This movie and “My Beautiful Launderette” opened on the same day. He was able to display his versatility to critics immediately. Roger Ebert creamed his panties.

Tossing those bloody postal cards in the Arno was heartbreaking, the end of innocence.

A view of WHAT?

It really was a magical film. It gave me the feels.

Cecyl Vyce is SUCH a closet case.

I just reread Kevin Kwan (Crazy Rich Asians) version of the book: Sex and Vanity. Light amusing stuff.

Sheshil! A dapper man!

[quote] Julian Sands is September and he's gorgeous!

I'm surprised you were able to walk in October!

Very romantic. DDL is funny as the uptight Cecil. Still handsome in his nerd costume.

This movie played at our local cinema for more than a year when it was first released. So many repeat moviegoers enjoying floppy hair and cocks, but I was happy to watch it multiple times!

We stayed in the room a few years ago- yes we over paid & it was a splurge, but we love the movie. It's a fabulous hotel & the view was wonderful, everything was perfect- we'd do it again & again......

Found A Passage to India and Maurice superior to A Room with a View. Though the same theme underlines all of these movies (and the books they are based in), British tourists always lose their minds, and ruin other peoples' lives.

R36 like American tourists

if you're into Merchant-Ivory, "Surviving Picasso" is a hoot.

It changed my life, too, though not as dramatically as R21. I grew up in crappy, low-class nowheresville and the whole movie was a glimpse of beauty and a different life (Mary!): the titles, the Puccini, the homes, Italy, the romanticism ....

And god bless James Ivory for turning his male gaze on the gorgeous Julian Sands frolicking nude in the pond like a young god.

[quote] why does her character go mad in the town square? Her character was a daffy, emotional woman. She was given the silly name of Miss Lavish.

Forster gave all the characters names which symbolise something of other.

Julian Sands and Daniel Day-Lewis are at peak hotness in this film—it's worth watching for that alone (among numerous other reasons). They are both so handsome in this, it's almost painful to look at them.

R39, I feel the same. Living in a small town with not much going on, it made a huge impression. Even the damn font for the movie/poster was beautiful.

My mother got a bunch of flack from her co-workers for letting me watch the movie though. Apparently, innocent frolicking penises are the devil, but my mom was cool that way, which I'm very thankful for.

Nice movie, but I also prefer Maurice.

The full frontal male nudity in this film is so sweet and innocent and yet it gave so much incessant young gay boners. I wonder how the actors felt about it, then and now. A wonderful film, even if not the very best of all involved. Does it have to be? A wonderful film.

h b carter ruins ev movie she in....vanilla, zzzzz, ugh

Bonham Carter is never less than good and is usually great.

Mediocre at best.

[quote] I wonder how the actors felt about it, then and now

There are interviews on YouTube where middle-aged Julian and James discuss how their younger selves prepared and coped with exposing their younger bodies.

I love this movie and Howards End. Always will.

R49 - The Remains of the Day is pretty good too.

One of my top 5 favorite movies. "Do not think me rude, we residents sometimes pity you poor tourists not a little!" That word play always stuck with me and I use it all the time. I also love Eleanor Lavish's "And I divine yet, Charlotte, you had an adventure there.....vain to deny it!" Just prior to that, Maggie Smith closing her eyes after stating she spent a summer at the home of her friend Miss Apesbury seemed to be a clear admission that she was a lesbian.

Because of this movie I never venture forth without my Macintosh Squares!

Another filmed version of a Forster story is Where Angels Fear to Tread, which also has HBC and Rupert Graves, as well as Judy Davis playing a nasty bitch and Helen Mirren a young and blossoming heroine.

The film is flawed (largely because the Italian actor at the center of it really weak, although he's pleasant to look at), but it's yet another example of the cold, oppressive, judgemental and oh-so-proper British ruining the lives of others.

How did Helen Mirren play a young and blossoming heroine?

A perfect jewel-box of a movie.

Why did the lovely Julian Sands's career go down the shitter? I recently rented a movie he was in just a few years after Room With a View, called Warlock—it stunk!

R54 - At that stage of Helen Mirren's career, I have the exact same question.

She was already in middle age R56. The mind boggles.

Young and blossoming?

Didn’t Julian Sands make a rather homophobic comment when it was thought he may play Maurice? I think James Wilbur did a great job. Has anyone mentioned Rupert Graves in Room with a View. So hot.

[quote] Has anyone mentioned Rupert Graves in Room with a View. So hot.

Rupert Graves is one of the few Brits that has remained sexy as he aged.

As I often post when Rupert is mentioned, Graves always said he was straight and then a few years ago he admitted he had had gay relationships in school and college.

Where Angels Fear to Tread has a wonderful scene in an Italian opera house where Rupert gets pulled up from the orchestra to a box filled with gorgeous Italian men. Rupert plays a repressed gay man and I think it's obvious he is in love with the Italian guy and possibly had sex with him.... Helena Bohnam-Carter is in this one too.

Nice piece with some commentary by Helena, Simon, and Julian.

According to Julian, the investors threatened to walk unless his and Helena’s roles were recast with John Travolta and Glenn Close! Imagine? What a train wreck that would have been.

[quote]John Travolta and Glenn Close!

LOL, surely he was joking. If that is true it just shows how out of touch people in the business are. John Travolta and Glenn Close playing what parts?

Julian Sand was never more attractive then in this film.

Not James Wilbur, James Wilby.

According to the video in R63, they were promised in the bathing scene that nothing would be shot below the waist.

That seems like a gross violation of trust.

[quote]they were promised in the bathing scene that nothing would be shot below the waist.

Then why weren't they provided with underwear or a jockstrap? If you are asked to appear on set naked, then you're going to be filmed naked.

Take a lesson from DL fave Miss Olivia de Havilland. She had that scene in "Gone With The Wind" where she takes off her nightgown. Even though she knew she wasn't going to be filmed naked, she didn't want the camera crew getting an eye full. So she wore clothing underneath the nightgown.

Like anyone would be fapping to Olivia de Havilland.

[quote]Then why weren't they provided with underwear or a jockstrap? If you are asked to appear on set naked, then you're going to be filmed naked.

You don't wear something with a waistband because it will keep popping into the scene.

You can suggest nudity without showing dick, but not if you can't slip below the navel or have underwear showing.

They could have worn cock-socks.

Daniel Day Lewis pretty much ruins this.

[quote]According to Julian, the investors threatened to walk unless his and Helena’s roles were recast with John Travolta and Glenn Close! Imagine? What a train wreck that would have been.

At least it wasn't Travolta and Lily Tomlin.

R60 - I love Rupert Graves in Sherlock and Last Tango in Halifax.

I heard Helena (or maybe most of the younger cast) really didn't get along with Maggie Smith. Any stories?

The nude scene

I remember the music the most, and also the scene where the gorgeous Italian carriage driver is forced to leave his girlfriend behind.

I loved the penises in this movie.

That Italian was fucking gorgeous. Did he ever do anything in Italy after this?

According to IMDB, the Italian was Luca Rossi, and he was only in a couple of other movies, besides appearing on the April 23, 2018 episode of The Today Show.

The Today Show?

Such a classy film

Exactly what was the Honeychurch taint that Cecil's mother spoke of? What was wrong with them?

BBC did an okay remake about 15 years ago. The cast was not too shabby (Tim and Rafe Spall as the Emersons, Sophie Thompson as Charlotte, Laurence Fox as Cecil), but overall it seemed pointless. And the Lucy was way less snotty and sullen than HBC.

It's streaming on Kanopy and Hoopla, if anyone's interested.

My neighbor at the time asked me to accompany her to this movie since her husband had no interest in seeing it. At one point during the movie she whispered to me "I'm so jealous of Lucy's hair". I whispered back "It's a wig" to make her feel better. Was it a wig or Helena's real hair?

R53 Where Angels Fear to Tread is the bit of scandalous gossip Judy Dench is relaying to Maggie Smith in A Room With a View:

Charlotte: "And did she really marry this young man?"

Mrs. Lavish: "Yes. An Italian -- TEN years her junior!"

Charlotte: "*gasp* -- Eleanor!"

[quote]And Helen Mirren as a young and blossoming heroine"

I'd say in this she's more of a late-bloomer.

r83 Was there any nudity in that version?

R86 To be honest, the production was so forgettable that I don't even remember (and I only watched it maybe 4 months ago)! Probably bare ass in the swimming scene, but definitely no "flopping".

Ivory on Dame Judith:

He fell out with Dame Judi Dench, after advising her to turn her A Room with a View character, Eleanor Lavish, Scottish. “I think she thought, ‘How dare this American tell me anything about accents.’ She told me my idea was all wrong, impossible. I felt she was a little too ‘on’ during that film. It was a little hard to tone her down and I couldn’t tone her down.”

The final straw came when Ivory cut one of Dame Judi’s scenes from the final film. “She never forgave me or wanted to speak to me again, or have anything to do with me. I once went backstage to see Maggie [Smith] in Lettice and Lovage in the West End. They were sitting there together backstage. I said, ‘Oh hi Maggie, how are you?’ and Judi was so cold.”

At least no Alec Guinness in brown face in this one...

[quote] Exactly what was the Honeychurch taint that Cecil's mother spoke of? What was wrong with them?

I think she glimpsed Freddy Honeychurch's taint in the bathing scene.

I had no idea Ivory was American.

Same here, R91.

Helena Bonham Carter is nothing like that crazy stuttering cat lady Sandy Dennis. Helena is rock n roll. She's not a delicate girl. Ha.

Everyone should see her in Margaret's Museum. It's stunning high wire work she delivers. A very good film too. Powerful and dark, mad romance. heartbreaking.

On one of the HR roundtables, Helena had all the ladies crying with laughter, even the reserved Nicole Kidman and Annette Bening.

Helena was the first choice for Breaking The Waves and she's very insightful on why she decided to drop out of that film.

One of my favorite books and films, OP. E.M. Forster possessed a gentle and disarming way of exploring class, British imperialism, gender norms, homophobia, and other social ills in his novels, without being preachy and sanctimonious. His stories gently pokes fun at the very people who benefit from classism, sexism, and homophobia by helping them to see themselves in the characters. Forster wrote his characters compassionately but did not spare them the truth of their character. Lucy is lovely, but a snob who almost loses her chance at love because of it. Even the ex-pat British residents of Florence, despite making good points about annoying British tourists, are just as annoying as the British tourists, since they think they are above Italians. Yet still, their dignity and full humanity is intact.

This film adaptation is superb because it honors Forster's approach. A lot of significant points are being made in the film, in an easily digestible form - like a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down. At the same time, you can just ignore that if you want, watch the film superficially and still derive so much pleasure from viewing it. A truly superb film.

[quote]Exactly what was the Honeychurch taint that Cecil's mother spoke of? What was wrong with them?

The Honeychurch family is (upper) middle class. It may also have had to do with [italic]how[/italic] they got their money (trade? I don't remember if it's mentioned.)

[quote]Judi Dench talks about a scene where her character goes mad in the town square. Apparently, she filmed some of it, but it was scrapped because HBC wasn’t feeling well and didn’t want to film her part. For anyone who has read the book, why does her character go mad in the town square?

There isn't such a scene in the novel.

Dench gives her side of the story below, and in the video at the link Maggie Smith teases her about going on forever about the "very short" scene not making the final cut.

[in 1994, when asked why A Room with a View (1985) was such a success] I've never seen it, so I don't know. Florence was lovely, of course, and it's a wonderful love story. I did enjoy doing the part, because Maggie Smith and I were old friends from 1958. We both arrived in Florence on the same day and neither of us had any family with us, so we would spend all day together filming and then go out to dinner together, catching up on our Old Vic days. But I didn't enjoy working with James Ivory. I didn't feel that I was on his wavelength and I didn't feel that he wanted me in the film, I have to say that. I remember doing that scene in the middle of the square where she goes mad and attacks the man selling postcards; James went to see the rushes and told me afterwards that everyone had laughed at it, they'd thought it was very funny. "Well done", he said to me. I thought perhaps we'd turned the corner but, when I came to post-sync the film, that scene was missing. When I asked why, he told me that Helena Bonham Carter hadn't been feeling up to it that day, so he'd cut the whole sequence. I don't know if that was the real reason he cut it - I just don't know.

[quote] Judi was so cold.

Which is weird because at the time of this movie, Judi was just a working actress. Nobody outside of the UK knew who she was.

Loved the book.

Who is this Old Vic, someone they were both fucking?

When I saw it for the first time in '85, I had actually gone to our rep theater to see "Boudu sauvé des eaux" (1932) with Michel Simon. I was very surprised to see a long line at the box office, only to find out it had been preempted by "A Room with a View", which was held over. I was so upset, because I hadn't heard about this one and I was looking forward to my old French film. Someone in line asked me what I had come to seen (I was grumbling at the ticket guy) and I said "Boudu Saved from Drowning" and he looked at me like I was crazy. And then of course I loved "A Room with a View" immensely. And I finally got to see Boudu years later.

R74 I know you Americans love gossip and think it tremendously funny when elderly British women behave like caricatures to feed your appetite.

But I have to tell it's a different culture. And elderly British women think and behave differently to you.

If you need to see a video that will make you cringe watch that awful interview rom 20 years or so ago when Maggie Smith was forced to publicise some project on American TV. She was pestered by some man named Charlie somebody who was begging for some titillating gossip to please his American viewers.

And thankfully she refused to play his game. But still it was an agonising performance.

I agree with you R101. But Judi Dench is a different story. She's more like Sharon Osbourne than Maggie Smith. Dench is a most inauthentic public character.

I loved Dame Judi Dench in the TV series Cranford and the film Mrs. Brown.

[quote] David Lean's A Passage to India came out the prior year, yet when people think of a Forster movie, A Room with a View comes to mind.

We do?

Thanks for speaking for all of us!

[quote] [R74] I know you Americans love gossip and think it tremendously funny when elderly British women behave like caricatures to feed your appetite.

We do?

Thanks for speaking for all of us!

This really is the thread of self-appointed spokespeople.

They weren't that elderly at the time. Charlie Rose was a terrible interviewer--leading questions, talking over people, overcontrolled hostility and that grating North Carolina accent. I don't know why he was so popular.

I remember the nude scene, but not a whole lot else. I was interested to see what this Judi Dench person looked like. The only thing I knew about her was that she was the London Sally Bowles. I thought she'd gotten rather portly and couldn't imagine her in the role.

Off topic, but R106 I recently tried to watch some Charlie Rose interviews and wondered the same thing. My theory is that people liked the long-form interviews (so different to the late-night talk show or press junket interviews).

Now we have podcasts to cater to that, but then it was rare.

I recently watched Tea with the Dames (British title "Nothing Like a Dame") on Hulu, and Judi Dench came across as remarkably thin-skinned, even for an actress. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't her sole quality. She was generally pleasant. But she seemed very sensitive and quick to take things personally. It was surprising to me because she is so revered in the US, yet she seems to have little self-confidence.

Mrs. Vyse referenced the Honeychurch taint because Lucy was always asking cook how the pudding was made. Apparently Mrs. Vyse thought such interest was low class.

R99 Old Vic is one of the most famous and respected theatres in the world.

Judi and Maggie on stage is everything. Seen them both, not together, and they are made for the stage. Seen HBC, too, and she has always been terrific.

I remember seeing Maurice when it first came out on video—it never played in my little college town—and wishing Julian Sands had been the lead. I still think it would have been hot to see Sands and Graves in a love scene, but I’ve come to appreciate Wilby’s performance, even though he’s not as beautiful as Sands.

And yes, Graves could still get it.

Just want to urge those who have not seen it to have a look at WHERE ANGELS FEAR TO TREAD, also based on a gorgeous Forster novel and with the usual suspects in all the roles. It's the finest film Merchant and Ivory never made.

This thread inspired me to watch Room with a View last night. Hadn’t seen it in close to 20 years. It really is charming and beautiful.

Surprise - where Angels Fear to Tread was not a Merchant-Ivory film...

R114 said that already, R16

Sheesh

Mother says I always get peevish when I play Beethoven

R116, not R16

[quote]Because of this movie I never venture forth without my Macintosh Squares!

Observe R52's foresight!

[quote]Lucy was way less snotty and sullen than HBC.

R83 Yes, HBC played all her roles during that era in the same tedious and unvarying way which is why I FF over her parts when I re-watch those films.

OTOH Rupert Graves has really stood the test of time. He's fresh and interesting to watch in every role and at every age. He's also very frank and open about his life and his sexuality.

I love the film. It's stood the test of time.

Mr Julian Sands made me wet then and he still does it now.

The Europeans (1979), Heat and Dust (1983), and The Bostonians (1984) are on Tubi (free app). Are these films any good? I wanna have a Merchant Ivory film fest. I recently (re)watched Maurice (1987) on Tubi. LOVE!

I'm kind of curious why Sands didn't have a bigger career. How does he make a living now?

R124 - actually, I saw an advertisement in the Phoenix newspaper for Julian Sands having a "reading" of Shakespeare or something. I should have gone, I doubt there would have been many people there and I could have probably met him. This was just two years ago or so.

This and "My Beautiful Laundrette" were released within weeks of each other, and because Daniel Day-Lewis played such radically different parts in the two films, he immediately acquired a reputation as being the most versatile young actor of the day.

It's funny, though, because though I think he's terrific in MBL, I thought DDL was too much of a caricature in this. He and HBC both overplay their parts here, but everyone else is splendid.

Denholm Elliott's and Julian Sands's characters would make more sense according to the logic of Forster's narrative, though, if they had more recognizably non-posh accents, however. That's the only thing I liked about the later TV miniseries adaptation: it made it much clearer by giving them non-posh accents why Lucy would feel initially George was unacceptable as a suitor, and why the rest of the tourists in Florence would be so snobbish towards Mr. Emerson.

R126, yes, because I totally missed that in the movie. I couldn't figure out why everyone was so lukewarm to the Emerson's. I had no idea they were what? Middle class or lower middle class? The Horror!

That's the whole point of the movie, r127. And Forster's novel.

Never read the novel but I did puzzle. I thought it was just because they were unconventional.

The Emersons are middle middle-class, but come from even lower origins.

The Honeychurchs are from the landed gentry, as are the Vyses.

Being American, I don't really get the class system of England at the time.

No one seemed that much richer or poorer than anyone else. But that may be because it is hard to read economic issues into period clothing. It all looks rich to us.

The "poor" people all seemed to still have fairly decent houses and servants. Even the Dashwood's in Sense and Sensibility kept a servant or two when they went to living in the cottage, which seems quite quaint and cute to me. Same with the March family in Little Women. I don't call that poor.

America had a class system too. They called them slaves.

[quote] America had a class system too. They called them slaves.

Thanks for the woke reminder, Roxane; but slavery had ended in the USA 35 years prior to when this novel was both written and set.

[quote] Thanks for the woke reminder, Roxane; but slavery had ended in the USA 35 years prior to when this novel was both written and set.

Not the Roxane you're referring to, but the racist US "class" mindset didn't just vanish the moment slavery was abolished. In its updated form, it still exists in the US.

Of course, for some, US racism and British class snobbery can't be compared for various reasons.

I never said we didn't have A class system but it was different from the Brits. You fucking trolls are exhausting in your zeal to find shit to be offended and shriek faux outrage at.

The social differences between the Emersons and the other families are pretty obvious.

I don't see it R138. Maybe I need to rewatch it.

Naked men!

[quote] You fucking trolls are exhausting in your zeal to find shit to be offended and shriek faux outrage at.

Please, do not grab your toys and leave like a petulant child. The thread would suffer so terribly if you leave!

Who said anything like that R141? They are just full of shit and trying to perpetually be outraged at everything. They're ridiculous. If they start spouting racist bs or being really annoying I may block but as of now they are just ridiculous.

r124, Julian Sands married an heiress as his second wife, the daughter of Lady Caroline Blackwood. He doesn't need to earn a living now.

[quote] I'm kind of curious why Sands didn't have a bigger career

R125 I thought Julian Sands was almost as attractive as the character of George Emerson that he played.

But Sands has a long pointy nose and a strange grimace as he struggles to get words out of his mouth.

He was not conventionally attractive physically and he must be less so now that he's middle aged and wrinkly.

He was more sexy than pretty R144.

R146, he's a TWAT.

In the novel, Mr. Emerson's socialism (as well as his class, atheism, and the invented scandal associated with his wife's death) raised eyebrows. I don't think his politics are mentioned in the film.

The film tells us that the father and son are free-thinkers. Do you remember that odd situation at the dinner table with George arranging his meat on the plate into a question mark? .

EM Forster named the Emersons after the American homosexual. I knew about about RW Emerson so I fully expected George Emerson to appear naked in the wheat field— just like Rupert Birkin surprised us naked in the bracken.

Just from being a reader of older English novels and watching PBS/BBC stuff, the British class system seems to stem from how money is made too. After the Industial Revolution, there seemed to a distinction between the merchant/clerk class versus old money/gentry/aristocratic class.

This isn't all of it and I'm definitely not an expert on British class, but the Emersons, although not poor, were not as polished as the Honeychurches and had income through trade jobs.

We aren't told what the Emersons trade jobs were?

R148, Emerson was NOT a homo!

In the book Mr. Emerson is a retired journalist. His father (George's grandfather) was a laborer.

Mr. Emerson said 'Always distrust a new venture that requires new clothes'.

Young George said we should take our clothes off

Julian Sands was in love with Jodie Foster. They dated and he fathered her children. Then she decided to try being gay and lives now with one of Ellen's exes. So it all worked out.

The Emersons = Freethinkers

Miss Honeychurch = traditional virginal vagina

Mr Beebe = a booby

Charlotte Bartlett = a name with closed syllables and hard letters

Miss Lavish = a silly extravagant woman

Cecil Vyse = a man made narrow minded by being placed in vice

Mr Beebe = a booby

And Simon Callow found the role he was born to play.

Thank you, Brits for clarifying the class structure. I think the overarching theme is "love conquers all." But if we need course notes, here they are, in part...

[quote]Lucy Honeychurch is a well-to-do young woman who has been brought up in a well-mannered, conservative social bubble in the country. A trip to Italy opens her eyes to the wider world, and she begins to question her ideas about class and equality.

[quote]George Emerson is a modern, philosophical young man who has been raised by his free-thinking father. He believes in equality for men and women, and cares more about a person's nature than their social status.

[quote]Mr. Emerson is a smart, free-thinker from a working-class background. He raises George to think independently and take risks, rather than mindlessly obey the dictates of society.

[quote]Charlotte Bartlett, genteel but poor, serves as chaperone to her cousin Lucy in Italy. She is rigid and proper when it comes to behavior, following the dictates of society strictly. She does not care for the Emersons, who defy social conventions, and she actively seeks to keep Lucy and George apart.

[quote]Mrs. Marian Honeychurch has lived a fortunate life, indeed. She married a lawyer who built a lovely rural estate, where his family was gradually adopted by higher society as wealthy Londoners who've moved to the country. Her personality is appropriately jolly and contented for a woman who has lived such a life.

[quote]Cecil Vyse, a handsome, upper-crust young man, has a greater understanding of books and art than of people. He believes himself above the people of Lucy's social circle, whom he views as country bumpkins. Cecil is rude to them, makes fun of them, and plays mean tricks on them.

R139, I rewatched the film within the last year and was struck by how socially inappropriate and off-putting both the Emersons were. George was morose and hardly ever spoke, and Mr. Emerson was preachy and asked intrusive and challenging questions of (or made observations of that nature to) strangers. They still came off as decent and interesting people, especially the father, but it was easy to see how scandalized the other people in the pension, who were "carefully brought up," would have been.

R154 Jodie Foster's baby daddy is most likely her Contact co-star and close friend, James Woods, who also shares her conservative views.

You're right, R85. And I believe that story was semi-based on Margaret Fuller, who married an Italian and later died of disease or childbirth. I'm not googling, just riffing from memory.

I'm so sick of Judy Dench--she always seems peevish and pissed off that her fame didn't come until she was old.

The Emersons were weird outcasts in that awful Charlotte Bartlett milieu.

There scene with with Puccini and Kiri te Kanawa soaring over the sunny landscape was obviously setting us up for a big reveal.

And as I mentioned earlier I expected freethinking George to be revealed naked in the field.

The Vyses ere the wealthiest of the bunch. If I remember correctly, Cecil was a lawyer by education, but did not have to work. His line, "I believe a proper gentleman can do however he pleases as long as he is no bother to anyone" is about his work and leisurely activities.

He tolerates Lucy Honeychurch because her father left a good name. They had money, but not Cecil Vyse money. She always was better at social gathering than he was. In the novel, he wanted her to play Beethoven and she played Chopin, as it fit the mood better.

Charlotte had a past of her own. She had an opportunity to marry a George Emerson-type but was scared. Ergo, she is an old maid. Remember, at the end of the novel it is revealed she purposely told Miss Lavish about George and Lucy and she talked with Mr. Emerson.

Dear R161 You need to—

1. Understand that accomplished British Shakespeareans aren't interested in your idle fancies.

2. Learn not to misspell her name.

[quote] Remember, at the end of the novel it is revealed she purposely told Miss Lavish about George and Lucy and she talked with Mr. Emerson.

That's one of the intricate plotting devices we romance-seekers didn't bother to understand.

And it's one of the intricate plotting devices that Forster didn't bother with in the sloppily-constructed 'Maurice' because he demanded that it should NOT be published.

[quote]Cecil was a lawyer by education, but did not have to work. His line, "I believe a proper gentleman can do however he pleases as long as he is no bother to anyone" is about his work and leisurely activities.

So was the homosexual subtext entirely DDL's and/or Merchant-Ivory's creation or is that to be found between the lines of Forster's work?

Does Cecil have a homosexual subtext? I thought he was just English.

DDL plays everything as a homosexual.

R166, R167, R168 I took it as a very very very wry character development that Cecil is asexual.

He comes off as an effeminite caricature who appears more avuncular than romantic toward Lucy.

Yes, but is Cecil's subtext in Forster's novella?

The word 'gentleman' appears 7 times. 'Bother' and 'proper' appears 15 times. 'Nude' once.

It is silent on Cecil's supposed 'homosexual philandering'.

Still holds up and one of my favorite movies and book.

[quote] I think the overarching theme is "love conquers all."

Forster's credo was "Only connect".

R174 I highly recommended the biography by her, it is quite well done and it ends somewhat happily with his well balanced open throuple relationship with a policeman and his wife.

[quote] well balanced open throuple relationship with a policeman and his wife.

I think I heard that that relationship is going to be portrayed in a new move with that young man who looks like The Artful Dodger and who, I think, is named Harry Stiles.

Only connect x 3!

The policeman tried to prevent mention of Forster's sexuality after Forster died.

[quote]OTOH Rupert Graves has really stood the test of time. He's fresh and interesting to watch in every role and at every age. He's also very frank and open about his life and his sexuality.

What's the deal with Graves's sexuality?

Compare and contrast with "Enchanted April."

Being a servant was not only a perfectly respectable way to make a living for generations of lower class Brits, it also enabled the British economic system to thrive. Only the very poor didn't have a servant or 2 at least a couple of days a week.

R180 I've never seen Enchanted April, but I know this little trivia:

After he lost the 1992 election, George H.W. Bush, Colin Powell, Brent Scowcroft, and James Baker all watched Enchanted April at Camp David.

I love Enchanted April.

[quote] Compare and contrast with "Enchanted April."

There is no comparison. One is them 90% schmaltz.

I thought Polly Walker's performance was the best thing about "Enchanted April". Very fresh and funny, and she looks great with a Louise Brooks bob.

Reverend Beebe: "Looking at Italian art! You see, you talk of coincidence and fate. You're naturally drawn to things Italian, as are we and all our friends, aren't we, Freddy? That narrows the field immeasurably"

- George Emerson: "It is fate. But call it Italy if it pleases you, Vicar.”

I can practically hear Julian’s voice r186 - “vicar”

Julian Sands has had a steady career. A Room with a View

The Killing Fields

Arachnophobia

Leaving Las Vegas

Rose Red

Ocean's Thirteen

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo

Crooked House

The Painted Bird

R179 Rupert Graves on his sexuality...

[quote]"But it's only when your fame dwindles that you start appreciating the expectations other people have. They get angry with you for not sustaining the image they had of you." Which was? "Well, I did Maurice and I did a couple of gay plays and I think it was because when I was young I was pretty and I was a pin-up for a lot of gay people. It's interesting when you're in your thirties and you're not the same pretty boy that you were when you were 21. I think people's anger at themselves getting older is projected on to you because you become a symbol of that.

[quote]"I'm a middle-aged man now. I mean, someone, not working on the show but around the show, said something to me the other day. And I just said, 'Well, that might be upsetting to you, but it doesn't upset me. Just because you don't want to f*** me any more, it doesn't upset me.'"

[quote]And homosexuality is not his thing? "I've swung between two per cent and 38 per cent gayness, I think, something like that, in my life."

[quote]Has he ever had a gay relationship? "Um, yes, one. I realised I wasn't gay because the only way I could really enjoy it was to close my eyes and imagine a woman. But I had issues to sort out and I felt like experiencing stuff."

[quote]He was a secret heterosexual? "It's true. I was a closet straight. I think I wanted to be gay because I thought it was arty and interesting. And also I was phenomenally shy with girls."

[quote]He explains that as a teenager he was dirty and spotty. Given that the prettiness of his twenties sent out the wrong signals to men, I suspect he is happiest looking the way he does now, which is still young.

[quote]"I just think the older I get, actually, the better I feel. It's given me the strength to say, 'If I get older and you don't like me any more, f*** you!' I'm kind of happy with that. Much more happy, much less vulnerable. As a young actor I felt like prey because I didn't know the business. I have much more confidence to be obnoxious now. The choice of being obnoxious, or not, is a lovely gift and it only comes with age."

Rupert Graves played Freddy who was just an unthinking adolescent and, really, just incidental to the plot.

I'm guessing Forster placed him in the story to embody that "free, natural spirit" that George Emerson preaches but doesn't actually do. Freddy was spontaneous and had no qualms about suggesting that they go nude.

I suppose Freddy went to be sexual and/or heterosexual but we don't know because he was unimportant to the main thrust of Forster's story.

R146 I don't understand what you're trying to say.

R191 He’s self referential.

That scene in which Graves plays that silly song on the piano while singing makes him incredibly attractive.

Even his mother seems to be affected by it.She chides him, but she realizes that people as beautiful as he is makes their own rules.

Oh, that's right, I forgot he was in The Killing Fields—good movie. But his leading roles dried up early, except for schlocky ones.

[quote]Compare and contrast with "Enchanted April."

I almost lost a friendship over Enchanted April. It's the most stinking piece of clichéd "personal renewal" crap (Oh we must feature a plant blooming at the end!) ever put on screen. It truly is frau pap on estrogen. And appallingly photographed. There's a scene that's supposed to be a really important one where a character opens up the shutters at the villa after a rainy night, revealing a vista of sunshine and loveliness. Except the moment is completely lost because the cinematography is so rubbishy, the camera also blinded by water reflections. It's like no one had a light meter on set. And as for the twee dialogue: don't get me started!

R191: people always confuse the Ruperts even though they're physically very different and only one of them is serious about acting.

HELENA BONHAM CARTER IS A SORRY ASSED BORING ICKY ACTRESS.....

Enchanted April is based on the novel The Enchanted April by best-selling 1920s writer Elizabeth von Arnim, who also wrote the novel Mr. Skeffington. Both books are far superior to their film adaptations and well-wroth checking out. She also wrote a novel called Vera that's still shocking today.

English people don't understand Americans' use of the language.

They understand you might not be talking about donkeys and asses. They understand you use 'ass' instead of 'arse'. They don't understand you might use a noun instead of a verb in the past tense.

Americans are so much better than the British.

Americans of the best type, R200? So rare!

[quote] You know the American girl in Punch who says: ‘Say, poppa, what did we see at Rome?’ And the father replies: ‘Why, guess Rome was the place where we saw the yaller dog.’

R202 That anecdote is rather dismissive of Americans.

I had assumed it was the basis of this more recent fiction—

Helena Bohnam represents that rather common type of brit actress who coasts on the credential of her smart rich hubby....

What hubby was that? Has she ever even been married? When she got her first success in the mid 80s she wasn't helped by any marriage or relationship.

[quote][R148], Emerson was NOT a homo!

R148 must be confusing Emerson and Whitman

R206 But what about Lake and Palmer?

Nothing like watching a movie about a bunch of rich white people have rich white people problems.

Oh, Mary! R208

R681 I don't know why Simon Callow might have cared if they shot the nude scene below the waist, as I saw him starkers in the West End in "The Beastly Beatitudes of Balthazar B" in a very funny nude entrance a few years before "A Room with A View", plus he did a number of nude stage performances afterwards. He seemed pretty much as ease naked on stage.

Julian Sands looks even better when he was older, at least in some of those clips in the documentary.

oops, R63 I meant.

R131 The class system is still there in present times as well. To some extent, you are judged and responded to as soon as you open your mouth to say a few words.

Rupert's Freddie clears the room (and steals the film)...

Of course, US has a class system too. But a guy with a Brooklyn accent, say, isn't judged by that. Nope, Americans judge by how much money one appears to have, based on how they are dressed, what kind of car they drive, what restaurants they eat at, etc.

@ R206

[quote] "I am more puzzled than ever with Gay's conduct. He came out to meet me yesterday, but just before we met, I turned another corner and most strangely avoided him. This morning I went out to meet him in a different direction and stopped to speak to a lounger so as to be directly in Gay's way, but he turned into the first gate and went towards Stoughton. All this child's play persists without any apparent design, and as soberly as if both of us were intent on some tremendous affair."

[quote]But a guy with a Brooklyn accent, say, isn't judged by that. Nope

You are fooling yourself.

As soon as an American opens his mouth with a crude New York or a hick accent, judgments are instantly made by other Americans.

"Not our sort."

R210 I don’t think he really cared as his attitude in the interview at R63 seems rather bemused about the nudity rather than bitter. I think R67 ‘s outrage is a bit melodramatic.

Another part of the same program of RWAV interviews as linked at R63. This one with commentary by James Ivory, cinematographer Tony Pierce-Roberts, and costume designer John Bright.

For what it’s worth regarding the nudity, Ivory says it was approached with a whatever ends up on camera is what will be shown attitude and Pierce-Roberts agrees.

[quote]As soon as an American opens his mouth with a crude New York or a hick accent, judgments are instantly made by other Americans. "Not our sort."

That's not what I think. When I hear a strong NYC accent, I think, "delightful" and smile. I love the sound of it.

[quote] That's not what I think…

At least two of us here think otherwise

We love James Ivory for his swingin' dicks on the big screen. He was miffed that they nixed it for Call Me By Your Name...

Tiny nub white man dick under flabby gunts don't "SWING." The nudity is sweet in the movie but there's nothing sexy about any of it. YUK, as we say in Brooklyn.

[quote]That's not what I think. When I hear a strong NYC accent, I think, "delightful" and smile. I love the sound of it.

That's because you are also low-class trash.

I'm not judging. I'm sure you are very happy being vulgar.

That's not necessarily true. When I, a Yank, but an actor with standard American speech, worked in London at a food establishment years ago, the Cockney lads and other folks there requested and were delighted to hear me do various American accents, including Brooklyn and Southern. I guess sometimes some non-Southern Americans might think a thick Southern US accent types that person as being kind of dumb and Gomer Pyle-ish. An recent episode of the tv series "History of Situation Comedy" said as much when talking about shows like "Andy Griffith", "Beverly Hillbillies", etc. When I hear a not so thick but certain type of Southern accent, especially from a lady like on "Designing Women", I just think it sounds rather genteel, refined and quite ladylike. Ok, Brooklyn accents are pretty out there and relatively exaggerated. But, unlike in the UK, except for the extreme accents, Easterners and Midwesterners size you up by your clothes, car, etc. In the UK a lot of folks can pretty much size up where you are in the social pecking order by your speech. "Pygmalion" is still very much there.

Dixie Carter on "Designing Women" especially had a very lady-like, genteel Southern accent.

Is the NY accent any worse than the "Boawsten" accent?

Thanks for ;posting that great video, r218, I loved hearing the comments of Ivory, John Bright and the cinematographer. Made me want to watch the movie again.

One of the best films of the 1980's.

I am currently reading Maurice and excited to watch the adaptation when I'm done.

[quote]In the UK a lot of folks can pretty much size up where you are in the social pecking order by your speech. "Pygmalion" is still very much there.

That used to be the case. My parents and I all had elocution lessons as children so that we would speak with BBC received pronunciation. If we hadn't, we would have been looked down upon.

But now, regional accents are much more popular. In London, even well-to-do people speak with an Estuary accent, which would have been, literally, unheard of not so long ago.

R228 You're in for a treat and more swingin' dicks.

This was twenty years ago but I remember reading in some business journal that a lot of British companies were hiring manager from the US to head due to the more neutral "classless" American accent. I guess they felt that some guy with a broad regional accent would have a hard time bossing over someone with a more schooled and higher class accent.

I didn’t think Cecil was that bad. He just seemed shy and awkward more than snobby. And I thought Lucy was really shitty to him.

Cecil seems like the poster boy for Asexuality.

[quote] Freddy who was just an unthinking adolescent and, really, just incidental to the plot.

Cecil was also just incidental. Forster didn't bother to give him two dimensions except he unwittingly acted in bringing the two lovers together.

I love this scene because Lucy is repeating EVERYTHING that George just told her.

Cecil Vyse grew up to be Newland Archer from the Age of Innocence. Duh.

Cecil just seemed like he wouldn't have the light on when he disrobed for bed, and Lucy had already (or was soon to see George naked (and packing) after his nude bathe.

[quote] packing

An online dictionary tells me that 'Packing is wearing padding or a phallic object in the front of the pants or underwear to give the appearance of having a penis or bulge. Packing is commonly practiced by transvestites.

So then what is “unpacking?”

And let's not even go into "fudge-packing."

Pics of Julian Sands' ass in Room with a View, please!

Wow. This thread exploded. I didn't realize I created such an uproar.

3 full-frontal naked guys in a major motion picture as a surprise kind of made a stir back then. It still does, if you don't know it's coming. The rest of the film is enchanting and visually beautiful, funny and moving as well.

[quote]Cecil Vyse grew up to be Newland Archer from the Age of Innocence. Duh.

Actually, Newland Archer (Victorian) predates Cecil Vyse (Edwardian) by about 40 years.

R243 Yeah, but as far as the character being written, E.M. Forster wrote Cecil in 1908. Edith Wharton wrote Newland Archer in 1920.

It's a great thread. And I don't think we've even touched on the extreme beauty of the Italian guys in the piazza scene when they argue and one is stabbed. The way it was filmed was like a series of magnificent paintings.

Where's the best streaming site to watch the film now?

R246

It's currently available to stream on Amazon Prime for $2.99/SD or $3.99/HD, or HBO Max with a subscription. The Internet says it's available on Netflix Streaming, but it is currently only available on DVD.

It also comes and goes on other channels so your best bet is to search for "Where can I watch 'A Room With a View" to get current options.

Never watched it before, saw it last night based on this thread. Very good movie! Beautiful scenery. DDL and HBC were the weak links. But I really enjoyed it, thank you for the recommendation

I think it's a film that's underestimated in people's memories. Mention the title and many people might respond, "Oh, that's a lovely/funny/pretty/fun film!," as though describing the dress of a birthday girl at her party. Initial reaction is that it's light and frivolous and a bit silly. But go past that and many people remember it in some detail, the plot, the locations, the people, and they have favorite scenes and characters and lines from different characters, which is to say a bigger impression than most films leave, years or many years after viewing them.

The light mood and quick pace of the film works because Merchant and Ivory made a lot of good decisions. For some time they were rather written off: "oh, it's one of those Merchant Ivory sorts of films, pretty girls, Edwardian dresses, trifling obstacles, but beautiful locations," all of which many Merchant Ivory films have, but well done and something better than the sum of the parts.

I remember a "friend" saying "It's a movie only pretentious people like, like 'A Room With a View.'"

I responded, "I love that movie!"

And he rolled his eyes.

But in fairness, he liked sitcoms, so I looked down on him, too.

R250, I had an eye-rolling attitude to A Room With a View for a few years after it came out, seeing it a few times and relishing it only for its pretentiousness, until at some point in the early 90s I admitted to myself, "I love this movie!"

A straight friend of mine at the time eye-rolled it and said it was a movie for virgins. He was an 80s beatnik wannabe.

Was George a virgin, or had he been around the block a few times before meeting Lucy?

George found it pretty easy to get his dick out, so I imagine he probably dabbled a bit in some sex.

George fucked Jodie Foster. He was experienced with the ladies.

"O mio babbino caro" ("Oh My Beloved Father") is a soprano aria from the opera Gianni Schicchi (1918) by Giacomo Puccini.

I watched it at 12 too and had an affair with a school mate over that summer. We went naked swimming just like in the movie in my pool. I was terrified!

Also featured during the big kiss scene between George and Lucy is the aria usually referred to as "Doretta's Dream" from Puccini's "La Rondine", also sung by Kiri Te Kanawa. It was a popular encore that Leontyne Price used to feature in many of her concerts.

This film is fucking perfect.

^ That fourth word is neither necessary nor appreciated.

Aunt Charlotte, you need another adventure, and quick!

Aunt Charlotte needs a huge dildo up her snatch, STAT.

Cecil, would you care for a bathe?

Look at this woman with her appalling Dangling Tendrils trying to get a straight answer out of Daniel.

At least he admits he could have played The Lover instead of The Sissy.

bonham carter is gross, i avoid anything she in......vanilla.

[quote] Is this on Amazon Prime or Neyflix?

I wish it were on Neyflix, Wilbur!

Are Helena Bonham Carter and Emma Samms two different moonfaced Brits, or the same one?

EQUALLY GROSS

helena b ruins another movie.....KARUMBA! (DESTROYED THE CROWN YE GADS.....

I think Simon Callow is pretty cute being naked with those younger, thinner guys. It's kind of hot actually.

It is one of those movies (like Altman's Gosford Park) where I tend to discover something new with each new viewing.

However, Maurice will remain my most favorite Merchant Ivory movie. I remember, on my first visit ever to a gay bookstore (God, was I fucking nervous), I did not buy a book, but the CD soundtrack of Maurice. I was, like, wow! What a treasure.