DL Catnip: British row over class and proper pronunciation

I was just sayin’

People have lost the plot when it comes to RP. It was actually a great way to bridge the divide between classes. It is a totally affected way of speaking, even the wealthy have to acquire it. Therefore ANYONE could choose to speak RP. You could be from a small village, a council estate, or Buckingham Palace and still speak posh. RP is also easier for everyone to clearly understand, which is a plus in broadcasting.

sorry, but I'm on Alex Scott's side here. The UK is incredibly class-ridden and Digby Jones is a typical old white male who is only a Lord because of his birth/connections, not because he's actually talented. Accent is VERY MUCH a way people discriminate other people by in the UK.

Diversity is a good thing because it increases the possibility of accessing talent. Alex Scott who is an actual talented footballer serves as representation for working class people now. Screw this 'Lord Digby Jones' - I'd never heard of him before this.

To massacre the language is not diversity. Its poor education and not giving a fuck.

R4 girl if you’re gonna play that game you can’t forget your apostrophes haha. Stupid bitch.

oi!

R6 = Fit builder

One old posh git made a snarky comment about a young working class mixed race woman and then everyone was forced to have an opinion.

The BBC coverage of the Olympics has been great. Alex Scott has great chemistry with the plummy Clare Balding, Dan Walker and scouser Sam Quek are great together, Scottish Hazel Irvine and Welsh Jason Mohamed are two of the BBC's most experienced broadcasters and then there's Gabby Logan for the athletics and Jeanette Kwakye and Nihal Arthanayake for the catch up.

I’m guessing Digby (that name 🥴) is unable to pronounce his ‘r’s properly like most of the english?

[quote]The UK is incredibly class-ridden and Digby Jones is a typical old white male who is only a Lord because of his birth/connections

That's not true,

He was head of the CBI before being given a peerage by the Labour government under Gordon Brown and appointed to a ministerial role in Brown's first government where he lasted just over a year. It was a populist move by Brown.

It was a similar move when Brown gave a peerage to Alan Sugar and appointed him an "enterprise champion", but Sugar was at least a lifelong Labour supporter and party donor.

R10, so connections. You're not proving me wrong.

(For non-Brits reading this, nobody is in the House of Lords because they were elected there. It's profoundly undemocratic. They are only there because of their connections or birth.)

No, she's just a dumb cunt. But attractive none the less.

I don't give two hoots about the class divisions but I like to understand what I'm listening to. Keep the accents for characterization in the movies.

R13 you find Digby attractive? Takes all sorts I suppose :)

R14, I'd say that everyone watching Alex Scott can understand what she's saying. That's another reason why this accent talk is absurd because if you can understand what she's saying, what's the issue? It's basically class snobbery.

Completely out of touch old git.

R15, lol, Miss Digby should meet Miss Lindsey.

[quote] It's basically class snobbery.

Oh yes, speaking English properly is just so snobbish. Let's dumb things down as far as they'll go...

R19, what is 'properly'? I mean, that itself is based on class snobbery. Not based on a) if you can understand what they're saying or not b) the content of what they're saying or not.

The younger generation don’t care about trying to speak with RP.

If Digby thinks her accent is bad, he should listen to Gen Z.

R21, genuinely, why should they have to speak 'with RP'? If you can understand her, what the heck is the issue? It's just pure snobbery.

[quote] It is a totally affected way of speaking, even the wealthy have to acquire it. Therefore ANYONE could choose to speak RP.

This is true of every accent in the world. Anyone can choose to speak in any way. The way you speak conveys a lot of cues about class and race. Why should people conform to a way that signals "snob"? Because you think wealthy Britons are fancy?

He’s from Birmingham? he should be used to unintelligible accents.

Some of the people on BBC World Service now are just completely incomprehensible.

[quote]Not based on a) if you can understand what they're saying or not b) the content of what they're saying or not.

So that should be the standard for English? The bar should be set that low?

I'm glad the French and Italian have higher regard for their languages...

R26, do you understand what she's saying or not? Is she saying stupid things or not (content)?

What is RP?

[quote]What is RP?

Received Pronunciation.

Actors and journalists were taught to neutralise their accents to make them acceptable for television.

[quote]do you understand what she's saying or not?

Since when is that the criteria for speaking a language properly?

Oh...that's right...there's no proper way.

oi he point da sword good bruv

[quote] This is true of every accent in the world. Anyone can choose to speak in any way. The way you speak conveys a lot of cues about class and race. Why should people conform to a way that signals "snob"? Because you think wealthy Britons are fancy?

Because it is a clear standard accent that allows all other English speakers to understand you. While her accent is still very understandable, some other regional ones aren't, for many people. I actually have an ear for accents, so it isn't difficult for me. I know others who have to always use closed captioning when someone is speaking in a thick accent, from the British Isles or America. There is one reporter for the BBC, whose voice just sounds like what one would expect to hear in a chippy not on the BBC, Steph McGovern.

Also, every accent is not an affection. You acquire your accent from how those around you sound when you start talking. Very few people have a natural RP accent. Their parents might speak posh, but most likely not RP, as it is estimated less than 10% speak with an RP accent.

I wish the "mid-Atlantic" accent that the actors in classic American movies used had survived here, it was basically our RP. Instead we are left with the flat "midwestern" newscaster accent.

If you speak English fluently but can't understand what this woman says, you're an idiot.

If you understand what this woman says but take issue with the way she says it then you're a dickhead, pronounced dick-edd.

What was considered a "common" British Airways "air hostess" accent 40 years ago is now considered "posh" on British broadcast media.

[quote]There is one reporter for the BBC, whose voice just sounds like what one would expect to hear in a chippy not on the BBC, Steph McGovern.

Oh fuck off you snob.

R35 Being a snob is an essential part of LGB culture and history.

He sounds quite ghastly. He must be an absolute asshole to everyone whom he deems inferior. Fossils like this old coot can't die off soon enough.

R33 She sounds ignorant.

It's like certain yahoo American accents.

I don't really like the sound of her voice - it's flat and nasal and has no rhythm. Oddly, it doesn't bother me when she's talking about football, her specialist area, where she's quote lively and enthusiastic, but anything ese I don't warm to.

I stand with Lord Fancy Pants. Consistantly dropping the ending g just grates on my last nerve.

The only person who can get away with that shit is The Scarlet Pimpernel.

I should not be able to tell the street a TV host, presenter, anchor, reporter, etc grew up on based on their accent.

R37 But then who will run Datalounge??

No one axed him his pinin.

He was being a snob and has tried to backpedal somewhat since he was criticised for his tweet.

She's just speaking with her regional accent which is London/South East. I can understand her just fine.

The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain.

In Hertford, Hereford, and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen

La lluvia en Sevilla es una pura maravilla.

RP goes back at least a century or more, predating both television and radio for that matter.

Main purpose was to wipe away (at least for upper class males) any trace of lower class accents and acquire something more neutral. This was deemed important since it was said then and still believed today that how one spoke indicated socio-economic status and background.

RP became associated with public school accents because boys from nobility and upper classes were largely sent away to school. There besides learning Latin, Greek, grammar and rest of it, they would "receive" instruction on how to speak British removing any low accents.

In wealthy households children were largely cared for by servants who came from the lower classes. Since they spent much of their time around those persons it was only natural boys and girls spoke with regional accents of whatever servant class came. Boys were sent away (again) to learn RP that would erase those accents. Girls who were often not sent away would be taught by governesses or tutors who themselves came from upper classes. Thus their accents and grammar would be "corrected".

Yes, by time radio, film and television came along some sort of standard accent was needed so things could be understood all over the empire. For years standard "BBC" RP was heard everywhere from Hong Kong to South Africa to India.

There are still in India today hundreds of natives who speak with a decidedly British RP accent.

Clip from film "Brief Encounter" showing RP at it's finest.

R47, that clip gets my rack man in off.

R33 That woman has got so much hair on her chest. It's on her chest as well as on her head.

Too much Dangling Tendrils!

Is pronouncing the letter 'h' (the name of the letter--not as used in a word) as HAITCH (instead of AITCH) considered low class? Regional? I've started noticing it a lot on some British TV shows.

Noël Peirce Coward came from a decidedly lower class Middlesex background. By his teens he began acting and moving in high society. Mr. Coward then began a program of elocution lessons both to help with his acting, and to more easily more in society.

Mr. Coward's accent and gentile manners are associated with quintessential upper class British, but it was all a put on. Every bit of it was studied and learned over and over until it became natural.

R47 here... Remove "it's" and replace with *its*

Carry on...

Lord Peter Wimsey dropped his "g"s.

R51 here.

"and to more easily more in society" Should be "move" in society.

Carry on....

Margaret Thatcher took elocution lessons to lose her common background accent. When she took things a bit too far in usurping use of royal "We" HM was not amused.....

As someone who never set foot in an Anglophone country, I didn't know the g's were supposed to be pronounced, at all?? Can someone post a video of the correct pronunciation, or even better, of how the correct and incorrect pronunciations sound like side-by-side?

[quote] When she took things a bit too far in usurping use of royal "We" HM was not amused

[quote] As someone who never set foot in an Anglophone country

Where do you live, R56?

Why is Margaret Thatcher like a pound coin?

Because she is thick, brassy and thinks she's a sovereign.

R56

This link should clear things up...

You people are obsessing over snobbery and reverse-snobbery.

The major issue here is that this person is employed by a BROADcasting service. Therefore their speech must be comprehensible to a BROAD spectrum of people who are listening and paying for it.

The sexy young chavs on 'Love Island' haven't had training for broadcasting and their natural speech makes every second sentence rather hazy in meaning.

Again to R56

When you hear what many consider typical New York City accent, it is filled with "dropped g's".

Sayin instead of saying

Dropin instead of dropping

Nothin instead of nothing

[quote] Digby Jones is a typical old white male who is only a Lord because of his birth/connections, not because he's actually talented.

I think you’re missing the whole point of being a Lord.

At school we were assigned book "A Kestrel for a Knave" for a term paper. Someone came up with idea to screen the film "Kes" for us students to ease some of struggles with book. It didn't help as many just couldn't understand the accents.

The question I have is what causes certain English people to add an "r" to words that end in a vowel - usually the letter "a" & often with names? Rita becomes "reeter"; you can even hear it from singers - Elton John sings Nikita as " Nikeeter".

Elton John is acting out a character using characteristic language.

But the BROADcaster has to fulfil her requirements and be intelligible to a broad audience.

R65 they don’t add ‘r’ to words rather than they mispronounce their ‘r’ as a vowel (usually ‘a’), so words that end in vowels accidentally sound like they’re adding an ‘r’ but they’re not at all. Awful pronunciation. Except the southwest of England where they really lean into the ‘r’ sound.

R36, the irony of you saying that when Steph McGovern is an out lesbian...

R63, the House of Lords is one of our legislative chambers. It's genuinely shocking in this day and age that it's not democratically elected.

[quote]The question I have is what causes certain English people to add an "r" to words that end in a vowel - usually the letter "a" & often with names? Rita becomes "reeter"; you can even hear it from singers - Elton John sings Nikita as " Nikeeter".

Did you ever hear JFK speak?

[quote]Mr. Coward's accent and gentile manners

Oh, dear. I hope you meant "genteel" and didn't intend to bring religion into the discussion.

Properly speaking, the g in "ing" is NEVER pronounced. It would be ridiculous it it were. In many English accents, it makes the preceding "i" sound like a long e. (Rhyming with mean, lean. seen, etc.) Thus fenceen, runneen, laugheen, smileen, and so forth. However, ing with this pronunciation was NEVER a part of Old or Middle English. It was an affectation added afterwards and then adopted by large swaths of English speakers. In Chaucer, (1400 AD), such words are usually spelled with ending on or en, such as longen (longing), maken (making), goon (going), etc etc etc. One could rightfully argue that people who drop the long ee sound in "ing" words are merely returning to the original and therefore MORE correct earlier English pronunciation. I use the een sound in my own accent, but it doesn't bother me to hear other people drop it. It's kind of charming, and identifies someone as having some sort of "regional' accent. In the US, southerners and New Yorkers are most likely to do this. In England, lots of accents drop this een sound. I don't think it would ever prevent me from understanding what someone was trying to say.

A pronounced "g" at the end of such words would sound like a k. Goink, swimmink. So it's obvious that it's never pronounced except by foreigners trying to make sense of it.

[quote]I think you’re missing the whole point of being a Lord.

The fact that they exist at all is ridiculous.

[quote] the House of Lords is one of our legislative chambers.

Yes, I’m aware of that. I just don’t think it’s a big deal that they aren’t democratically elected. There’s something to be said for elites who don’t have to pander to the masses.

[quote] The fact that they exist at all is ridiculous.

Well, don’t you sound like fun.

Oh, yes. "Fun" is a bunch of thousand year olds whose entire accomplishment was emanating from a nutsack, dressing up in dumb wigs and curtains and having power they haven't earned.

Don't they house pedos, too?

R75 is so much fun she votes Labour. Fun, fun, fun.

In fact, the true aristos dropped their g's frequently. "He's not one for huntin', fishin', and shootin,' so he's not invaited to Balmoral this ye-uh."

Take the time to learn to speak properly!

He's a pompous old fool who probably affects his accent anyway.

I've watched plenty of the BBC Olympics coverage and Alex Scott has been entirely comprehensible throughout.

I'm a US Southerner. I am proud of my accent. We drop our "g's" as well. But, when I am speaking in a professional setting, I make sure to pronounce them.

R36 That’s why everyone hates gay men.

I assumed Lord Peter Wimsey was being a bit "naughty" dropping his G's?

Proper diction doesn't reflect class, it reflects education and self-respect.

R80, is that you, Senatrice?

She sounds stupid. America isn't class obsessed like England, but is there any broadcaster on TV who doesn't speak with a standard American accent?

[quote]She sounds stupid. America isn't class obsessed like England, but is there any broadcaster on TV who doesn't speak with a standard American accent?

Christiane Amanpour?

In the UK you are judged by two things. How you pronounce the English language and how you eat with a knife and fork at a table. English is a beautiful language when spoken correctly. Unfortunately mass migration has has resulted in far lower standards in British schools and a Jafaikan patiouse English is now widely spoken amounts the young which immediately labels them as uneducated. Diss, Dat, Dem and innit is not correct English.

I fink dat wat yous sayin is rite!

Is there a way for Americans to watch BBC coverage of the olympics. It's crazy how jingoistic and American-centered NBC's coverage is.

Piers Morgan's nemesis Alex Beresford tones down his Bristol accent when he appears on tv. Here he is ramping the accent up.

I have interviewed a number of young people for jobs in the UK and on some occasions have had to stop the interview and ask a colleague to join me as I could not understand what the interviewee was saying. And these are kids who were born in the UK. Very Very Sad!

[quote]I have interviewed a number of young people for jobs in the UK and on some occasions have had to stop the interview and ask a colleague to join me as I could not understand what the interviewee was saying. And these are kids who were born in the UK. Very Very Sad!

How old are you, where you from, how old are the "kids" and where in the UK are they from?

It was a lovely hice. I adored it when I was a gel.

Ecktchley, I thenk thez two els on gell, I em sor-reh.

R92 I am 49 ,From London, Live in London and kids are 18- 25 in London.

He called her a coloured woman yesterday or the day before on I think it was GB. Twitter is talking about it. I don't have time to link sorry.

I honestly couldn't notice anything different about Alex's accent. Most UK accents (aside from Scottish and Cockney) sound alike to me.

[quote]He called her a coloured woman yesterday or the day before on I think it was GB. Twitter is talking about it. I don't have time to link sorry.

No one cares. People were outraged for 12 hours and then everyone moved on.

I love the Bristol accent, R90. I spent a lot of time out that way when I lived in the UK, it's such a friendly accent.

I hate to say it, but this thread is kinda hilarious - the gnashing of teeth over people not speaking English "properly" and the inclusion of clips of movies from the 1940s... I mean, I know people joke about how old posters on this site are, but my word, some of you are ANCIENT!

[quote] and the inclusion of clips of movies from the 1940s.

We should include clips from 'love island'. I rely on their body language to understand their dialogue.

The pretty and ineloquent Welsh bricklayer—

Speak like this. The pinnacle of elocution.

[quote] English is a beautiful language when spoken correctly. Unfortunately mass migration has has resulted in far lower standards in British schools and a Jafaikan patiouse English is now widely spoken amounts the young which immediately labels them as uneducated. Diss, Dat, Dem and innit is not correct English.

Oh hello Mr Starkey. We've always assumed that you must be one of the resident elder-eldergays of Datalounge. I take it you are also a regular in the BRF threads.

Now, R103, just why is it that SO many thousands of Non-English people try to enter England every year?

He said WOT?

[quote]Oh hello Mr Starkey. We've always assumed that you must be one of the resident elder-eldergays of Datalounge. I take it you are also a regular in the BRF threads.

David Starkey's diatribe about how David Lammy had started talking like a white man and how white teenagers were now speaking "black" remains the most unashamedly racist outburst in the last 10 years. One that the poster above clearly supports.

As for people in Britain being judged on how they use a knife and fork, there must be some batshit crazy dinner parties the poster goes to to think that.

R106, I think that the loathsome cunt Starkey was just as vile when he commented on slavery last year.

[quote] "Slavery was not genocide, otherwise there wouldn't be so many damn Blacks in Africa or in Britain, would there? An awful lot of them survived."

[quote] As for the idea that slavery is this terrible disease that dare not speak its name, it only dare not speak its name Darren, because we settled it, nearly 200 years ago. We don't normally go on about the fact that Roman Catholics once upon a time didn't have the vote and weren't allowed to have their own churches, because we had Catholic emancipation. We don't go on about that."

R107 Starkey is a pedant who cares about the use and misuse of the language.

That may be, R108, but his use of "so many damn Blacks" reveals his feelings on the subject and how truly loathsome and vile this beastly man is.

If you can’t pronounce words properly, you shouldn’t be a TV presenter.

R109 So you're saying historians and anthropologists shouldn't be allowed to think.

And that they should keep their mouths shut during television interviews.

What the fuck you mob talkin 'bout?

[quote][R106], I think that the loathsome cunt Starkey was just as vile when he commented on slavery last year.

Fair play, that was vile, but I don't think it was that surprising based on what Starkey had previously said on race.

[quote][R109] So you're saying historians and anthropologists shouldn't be allowed to think. And that they should keep their mouths shut during television interviews.

Historians and anthropologists should be allowed to both think and voice their opinions, and if they make statements that are so blatantly obviously racist then people have a right to describe those statements as racist, and broadcasters are duly able to consider whether they want to offer an interview slot to a virulent racist again.

[quote] so blatantly obviously racist

Which is equivalent to saying

[quote] so blatantly obviously sinful

Nothing compares to the clarity of this gentleman

The Brits have always pronounced shit terribly. The Liverpool and Manchester accents are the absolute fucking worst. The way they say: I sawre it - for I saw it. Ewwwwwwwwwww.

Can't agree, R116. I lived in London for a few years while going to school. The posh London accents, even standard Received Pronunciation, all are wearing and artificially grand. And the standard British way of treating foreign words is repellant. What they do to a word like "Nicaragua" is practically sinful.

There's a lot of life and music in the northern accents. I much prefer them. Bus becomes... boozz? Fabulous.

Hope R116 never puts Sky Sports Football on the telly by mistake...😂

Fookin’ ‘ell, can’t believe ‘ee’s talkin’ like that. Has ‘ee ‘ad any fookin’ media trainin’ or what? Goin’ around like Richard Keys? Can’t stand all that. SEXIST. Against any discrimination, realleh—I’m basically fookin’, like, colehblind. Me an’ Our Philip weyre known as the fookin’ Williams Sistehs. Don’t get me wrong, we’re still old-school, still frow mooney about...

R117 I don't mind London area accents at all. But Manchester and Liverpool can choke on a fat black cock and die.

"Slane Rane-jah" voices get on my tit. You can hear them around the posher parts of West London.

My favorite regional British accent is Geordie (Tyneside)--very friendly blokes there.

[quote] My favorite regional British accent is Geordie (Tyneside)--very friendly blokes there.

Oi loike Mackem accents betta....🤤

Diggers is just wound because he knows we all know that he’ll never again get a fit young vibrant and successful woman like Alex to shag him—or even so much as look his way and say hello—unless he pays out of pocket at the escort agency.

Ugly pretentious cadaverous creeps reek so bitterly as they rot away...

I don't care about pronunciation as much as I do about unusual or non-standard (at least I think, as an ignorant American, that they're non-standard) words like summat, nowt, shtum, khazi, the use of "were" instead of "was," etc.

Or maybe I've just been watching too many British procedurals.

R124 been watching The Sweeney, lad? Nowadays no-one talks like that anymore.

I DEMAND PROPER CLASS from my BBC presenters!

r125 Nope. Line of Duty, filmed in 2020.

R106 - H.K.L.P.

One of the rare occasions Owen Jones has been sympathetic.

Starkey tells the audience things they're too scared to think about. He sees things in the long term.

Jones cares only for his 'socialist revolution'.

Mr Starkey is absolutely right. Visit London and see the white youth has become black in the UK.

Oh fuck off you Nazi priss arses.

[quote] the white youth has become black in the UK.

They have adopted the vocabulary and the attitude from 'the Windrush people'

Lord D-J mustn’t have seen the Euros coverage.

Rio Ferdinand & Frank Lampard geezing it up was nigh incomprehensible at points. Then Shearer with his thick Tyneside brogue...

Patrick Dennis : Is the English lady sick, Auntie Mame?

Mame Dennis : She's not English, darling... she's from Pittsburgh.

Patrick Dennis : She sounded English.

Mame Dennis : Well, when you're from Pittsburgh, you have to do something.

Trust DL to defend the bigot Starkey.

Christian Pulisic still doesn’t know why English players constantly say “innit”.

Innit....

Pick your accents....

Personally have no trouble understanding the announcer, but the local boys and girls are another matter.

A friend and I watched the Aussie movie Holding The Man. We had to turn the CC on as we couldn't understand what they were saying.

Innit, mustinit.. A whole world of contractions

The British once had one of the best education systems in the world. This was destroyed when Labour gave us Comprehensive education and dummed everyone down. Just listen to some of our newsreaders who have been educated in the UK, its shocking how poor the English they speak.

According to interviews Shelly Winters had a difficult time understanding Michael Caine's cockney accent when making film "Alfie"

Correction " Shelley Winters"

Carry on....

[quote] People have lost the plot when it comes to RP

RP?

Stop with the acronyms please. Jesus.

Kathy Burke is a treasure! Doesn't pull any punches, what you see is what you get.

Kathy Burke in a more recent show of hers, accent is a bit toned down.

I will not hear a bad word said about Kathy Burke. Any one of you starts on her, it’s on sight.

Perry Carter is my son.

[quote]Therefore ANYONE could choose to speak RP.

THANK you!

So the Lambeth boys were the Chavs of 1950's Britain?

R120 after this morning’s ill tidings, I fully back razing Manchester to the ground honestly.

I look forward to the day when every single American speaks like a ghetto whore. U know what I'm sayin'???

Because it's cool to sound uneducated and unintelligible. Bring those toffs down to the gutter.

Some people confuse "education" with "accent like mine".

R155 exactly. The number of absolutely pigsit thick and proudly uneducated poshos I know...

[quote]This was destroyed when Labour gave us Comprehensive education and dummed everyone down.

Well, someone did, anyway.

Margaret Thatcher did it.

Tony Blair did it.

At my school in the US we were swiftly and sharply corrected if we ever used “have got.” But in British English this redundancy seems widely accepted.

R160 meet “might of”.

might have!

It seems what is going on in Britain at the moment is a sort of reverse classism. It's obviously considered very "uncool" to speak RP or even posh, which is a toned down version of RP. Using those accents is considered snobby and narrow-minded and used by people who consider themselves better than everyone else. Listening to the Lambeth boys clips above (from 1968) is obvious that strong Cockney and Estuary accents have been around forever - just not used in the media (which was the "public face" of Britain to the rest of the English-speaking world for decades). Michael Caine admitted that he was one of the first actors to refuse to change his natural accent in films. I can well imagine that people with sensitive ears in England can quickly tell pretty much exactly where someone grew up, which has to be sort of fun. You can see the delight in the newscasters' faces when the weatherman gives his report in his strong natural accent. By comparison, American accents are relatively mild and the vast majority of the country simply uses "television speak" - a very neutral American accent.

[quote] going on in Britain at the moment is a sort of reverse classism. It's obviously considered very "uncool" to speak RP or even posh, which is a toned down version of RP. Using those accents is considered snobby and narrow-minded and used by people who consider themselves better than everyone else.

Even royalty tone down the RP in certain situations.

It’s always so funny listening to Prince Wills chat with footballers. He goes full lad.

There are plenty of people on British TV with "neutral" English accents but having a strong regional accent is no bar to success as long as you're good at what you do.

There's Ant & Dec, Adrian Chiles, Alex Jones, Gethin Jones, Graham Norton, Steph McGovern, Stacey Dooley, Lauren Laverne, Huw Edwards, Sara Cox, Paul O'Grady, Nicky Campbell, Clive Myrie, Kirsty Wark, Victoria Derbyshire, Chris Mason etc etc etc.

R165 graham is Irish 😵‍💫

[quote]I wish the "mid-Atlantic" accent that the actors in classic American movies used had survived here, it was basically our RP. Instead we are left with the flat "midwestern" newscaster accent.

Some had that accent. Not all that many. Some were actors from areas where people spoke with New England or Northeastern accents anyway (Bette Davis, Katharine Hepburn, Gene Tierney, Van Johnson, Robert Montgomery). The list of stars without that kind of accent is long. Bogart, Stanwyck, Cagney, Spencer Tracy, Clark Gable, Lucille Ball, and on and on.

R12 Undemocratic but also relatively powerless, especially since the 2009 establishment of the Supreme Court? I mean powerless relative to other upper chambers, like the U.S. Senate?

And Alex Jones, Gethin Jones and Huw Edwards are Welsh and Nicky Campbell and Kirsty Wark are Scottish.

Graham Norton's Irishness makes my point - there are plenty of neutral English accented presenters but having a strong regional accent is no bar to success as long as you're good at what you do.

Gloria Hunniford has had a hugely successful TV career, as did Caron Keating before her untimely death, and her accent was even stronger.

R%167 Hepburn's accent was largely an affectation. Actual Wasps with a Boston Brahmin or Locust Valley Lockjaw accent ridiculed her for it.

R11 tries to hit "connections" for advancement when her "connections" got one academic tenure (which she walked from for a sweeter deal).

You can't play it both ways, you misandrist racist cunt.

Pretty sure R11 was saying Digby Jones only achieved anything in life because of connections, and not Alex Scott.

Eamonn Andrews, an Irish born TV and radio presenter who worked mainly in the UK in the later part of the last century, has an accent that seems uncannily American to my ears.

R173 American actors are often hired for Irish roles, and vice versa.

My favourite example of the former is Shawn Hatosy in the British indie drama BORSTAL BOY, playing the young incarnation of the Irish playwright & man of letters Brendan Behan.

Arlene Francis did not speak with a Standard Mid-Atlantic accent. She spoke with an "I'm-a-glamorous-New-York-Celebrity-and-I-work-in-broadcasting" accent. She laid it on THICK and it served her well. But it was affected and used to project an image of New York sophistication. She was only a step away from Mary Boland and the Countess de Lave.

Actors have a need to overcome any regional accent they grew up with and to learn to speak neutrally. Scarlett O'Hara cannot have a Boston accent. Oscar Madison cannot sound as if he's from Alabama. First an actor learns to de-regionalize his speech, aiming for something far more neutral and standard. Once s/he has learned to do that, s/he can learn to do more vocally.

[quote] Actors have a need to overcome any regional accent they grew up with and to learn to speak neutrally.

Nah, nah, I don’t fink that true a’all.

This is why I gave up on French. I already torture the English language with my regional accent. I don't want to mangle another one.

[quote] Michael Caine admitted that he was one of the first actors to refuse to change his natural accent in films.

R163 He wasn't an actor, he was a 'lazy geezer' who stood in front of a camera and raked in the money.

He never made an effort to do anything worthwhile.

R176 Rusty voice box. Vocal fry.

R179 also the fact he’s just a talking slab of thick cheesecake. Can’t expect elocution and diction from that.

[quote] American actors are often hired for Irish roles… My favourite example of the former is Shawn Hatosy

R173 This man is quarter-caste Irish and quarter-caste Hungarian

R181 oh really? That’s interesting, I didn’t know that. He does look very Irish.

All the same, he’s still an American with a naturalised American accent. I’ve heard it said by accent/vocal coaches that most Americans find it far easier to put on Irish or Scottish accents than English ones (outside of RP/the aforementioned ‘broadcasting’ accent). Very broad regional English dialects such as those from the deepest rural North or the West stump most American actors e.g. Sean Astin in LORD OF THE RINGS has a West Country accent that is so dubious; sounds like he was going for Somerset/Gloucestershire Bumpkin, but he kept slipping into some sort of quasi-Irish garbling. Fair play for giving it a good go, though.

R182, it works both ways. Most British actors have an generalized 'American' accent, but it often does not sound well to an American. Brits, given the chance to pronounce an "R" often sit on it much too hard. The flatness can be much too flat. American regional accents are difficult when one's ear is not accustomed to hearing them.

When I was in drama school in London, I saw a British actress do a Blanche DuBois monologue with Barbra Streisand's voice. I asked her about it and she rolled her eyes and told me she was doing her "American accent." All I can say to that is "Cor blimey, Mary Poppins!"

[Quote]Most British actors have an generalized 'American' accent, but it often does not sound well to an American.

I actually find that many British actors are excellent imitators of the General American English accent. We Americans, on the other hand, seem to do poorly at imitating theirs (like Madonna).

Then again, the General American accent is so generic that anyone could speak a close version of it, and fool the average American that it's their native way of speaking. Many Americans sit on their Rs too much, too. As a New Yorker, I definitely notice that feature in some of those from elsewhere in the United States.

Every once in a while I notice a British actor sounding American on certain words (when speaking in his or her native accent.) Invariably, they turn out to be Scotch or Irish. I'm wondering if that has anything to do with the fact that the Scotch-Irish were a huge part of the settlement of the United States.

[Quote]Eamonn Andrews, an Irish born TV and radio presenter who worked mainly in the UK in the later part of the last century, has an accent that seems uncannily American to my ears.

R173 Same to my ears, too. According to The Dictionary of Irish Biography, he was trained to speak like that. I guess Neutral Irish is supposed to sound Americanish.

[Quote]Sent to elocution lessons by his mother to refine his Dublin working-class accent, he developed the neutral Irish accent that would be a hallmark of his broadcasting career.

So the lower class drops the "g" at the end of words.

Next on the docket, the lower class will be droppin' the Monarchy once Charles ascends the throne.

^Is Charles ascending the throne?

I, for one, would love to have Trevor Howard's accent. I've often wondered what would happen if someone opened a private school in the US with only British teachers, teaching an RP accent to all the students? I think it would be popular with high society types, celebrities, etc. Although I suppose its graduates would be made fun of by most Americans.

^It's already been done, by Hollywood and Broadway in the 30s and 40s and even into the 50s. Think Katharine Hepburn's way of speaking back then. It couldn't stick long term, I guess because unreal things aren't that interesting,

[quote] I guess because unreal things aren't that interesting,

You could tell that to the Millennials who are forcing Hollywood to produce nothing but sci-fi fantasy for the last decade.

R189

There are already dozens of British schools in USA. Staffing is what it is and is highly influenced by immigration laws. Thus while the curriculum may match UK standards, whom is doing the teaching is another matter.

A public school in England or UK obviously would have a natural pool of talent with or without RP accents to not only teach students, but reinforce by example.

OTOH it is rather difficult to staff an entire school in USA with teachers and staff from UK, much less require all speak with RP accents. Ditto for French, Italian, Spanish and rest of international schools located in USA.

Anyone who wishes to learn RP themselves or for their children are not without options in USA. There are scores of vocal coaches and tutors who will happily provide (for fees of course) such instruction.