The filming of "Mermaids"

Lasse Hallstrom had originally been hired to direct but he wanted a darker ending where the little girl drowns. Cher wasn't having it. Emily Lloyd had originally been hired for Winona's part but got fired because Cher said she didn't look like her (Emily's response to her face was "well, you don't look like you, either"). Cher got her way and while it's a fun movie and Winona is awesome, it could have been a darker more serious film which I think would have made it better.

[quote]it could have been a darker more serious film which I think would have made it better.

Yes, more serious, indeed.

With Cher, Ryder and Richard Fucking Benjamin.

Someone posted this on another thread. Make of it what you will.

Christina Ricci looks great in that clip.

Winona turned 18 during the production.

Whatever her issues were she gave an outstanding performance, as did Cher and Christina Ricci.

And lovely, lovely, lovely Michael Schoeffling.

I wanted Michael inside me quite deeply.

Winona had a really good filmography in her youth. Beetlejuice, Heathers, Great Balls of Fire, Mermaids, Dracula, Edward Scissorhands, Little Women, The Crucible and Girl, Interrupted, Say what you will about her acting but she was getting so many great roles in the 80s and 90s all before she turned 30 too. For an "it girl" her peak was also pretty long.

I like Wynonna better.

r6 we all did, hon.

Frank Oz was hired after Halstrom left. Cher publicly bad-mouthed them both:

Q: You’ve had some less-than-successful encounters with directors, particularly on “Mermaids.”

A: I feel if you’re stupid, I’m difficult. Lasse Hallstrom was nuts and Frank Oz is an idiot. Just because director is behind their name doesn’t mean that everything that comes out of their mouth is etched in stone. I found “Mermaids” and I loved the 15 pages that I read and I got it made. And it was a really horrible experience. Anytime you get rid of a director, it’s rough. It’s like getting your teeth drilled. If you get rid of a director in this town, nobody wants to let you get away with that, even if the director is a (jerk). Because then it’s not safe for directors and actors should know their place.

"now his lips are touching mine..."

I love Cher, but she sounds a bit nuts.

This seemed to kill Cher's movie career.

Yes, she's made films since, but her run of good work sort of ended with Mermaids. We weren't too many years away from Infomercial Cher.

Winona and Christina my 90s queens

Oh please r1. Making it darker and more serious certainly wouldn’t mean it’s “better”. Some things work better with lightness. This had a dark comedy vibe, and it worked.

I saw this with my sister and when it looks like Christina is going to die my sister gasped. I leaned over and said, "Yeah, like a child is going to die in a Cher movie." I was more right than I knew.

Peter Bogdanovich said Cher can't act. Her performances have to be pieced together in the editing room.

You might say that about her singing, too. I mean can she really belly-up to a microphone and do a torch song? Or does she need Autotune, vocorder and take after take glued together by engineers?

I've noticed when an actor is inept or overhyped, they are nightmares of insecurity and lash-out at anyone.

Sweetie, Cher was singing decades before auto-tune existed. Stupid comment.

I have some personal insight on this movie. I was on the set two nights as a kid and years later took classes with the book’s author Patty Dann. A lot of big personalities and unfortunate incidents took place. Cher felt very personally connected to the material because her character reminded her very much of how she was raised by her mother. She saw the book in galley form from an unknown, first time writer and championed getting it made. The movie Lasse wanted was a fairly big departure from the ending of the book. For what it’s worth, Dann is still friendly with Frank Oz. Also for what it’s with, Oz had also clashed with other crazy actors, famously Brando. I think the most successful directors have a talent for managing actors, many of whom are bratty adult children.

Hard to be respected when you're most known for voicing a pig puppet.

Man I’d love to get Frank Oz drunk and hear his stories. Cher, Bette Midler, Kevin Kline, Bill Murray, Edward Norton - how does poor Miss Piggy always get on projects with famously difficult actors?

[Quote] Emily Lloyd had originally been hired for Winona's part but got fired because Cher said she didn't look like her (Emily's response to her face was "well, you don't look like you, either").

Lmao

I remember how Cher got the first Director fired. It was a big deal in Hollywood.

Then she didn’t get along with the second one either.

On top of that she got the other actress fired, which left a bad taste in many peoples mouths.

The Emily Lloyd story is a bit odd. Wouldn't Cher have already known that Lloyd was cast and seen what she looked like? Lloyd had already gotten lots of buzz for Wish You Were Here and In Country. It wasn't like she was unknown.

R24 she probably needed to see them standing together side by side.

Apparently Christina Ricci baked a batch of laxative-filled brownies for everyone.

Why was this film called "Mermaids"?

Poor Emily Lloyd, before this she suffered post-Moonlighting Bruce Willis and then she turned down Pretty Woman for Mermaids,, though at least she managed to get a $175k settlement from the studio when Cher fired her. Then Woody Allen fired her from Husbands and Wives because she was so fragile/anxious/bulimic.

She is schizophrenic

Emily Lloyd has a well established history of mental illness.

This could be a movie in its own right.

[quote]In 1997, Lloyd went to India where she took the anti-malaria drug mefloquine, which is contraindicated for people with mental disorders. Lloyd became sick on the trip and was also bitten by a stray dog. Lloyd attributes the combination of the drug and the attack to causing a subsequent mental breakdown. She lost 2 stone (13 kg) on the two-week trip, and developed obsessive-compulsive disorder afterwards

“Stated in 2009 interview that she had also been diagnosed with mild schizophrenia, attention deficit disorder, Tourette's syndrome and chronic insomnia.”

[quote] “Stated in 2009 interview that she had also been diagnosed with mild schizophrenia, attention deficit disorder, Tourette's syndrome and chronic insomnia.”

In other words, a DLer.

She's no crazier than any other actress, including Cher.

R21, I'd love to hear Oz's Marlon Brando stories from the set of "The Score."

From the linked article: " Brando also took to calling former Muppet Show puppeteer Oz Miss Piggy and apparently said: 'I bet you wish I was a puppet so you could stick your hand up my ass and make me do what you want.'"

The only thing I remember about The Score is it’s cast, and Frank Oz defending why he cast Angela Bassett as the wife. He said he didn’t cast Angela Bassett because she is black, and the role of the wife didn’t have a color or race attached to her when casting, he cast Bassett because she’s a terrific actress, and her playing the wife to a white man shouldn’t matter.

I completely understand an actor sometimes needing to get a director fired. It’s necessary sometimes. I stand with Cher.

More info on the making of Mermaids, please.

This also was like Michael Schoeffling's second to last film before he disappeared for good to become a woodworker.

I would like a weekend of nothing but Mermaids discussion on DL TBH. This movie slaps.

It would’ve been better if the sister had drowned. And of course that scene would flash back-and-forth with Michael’s hot little ass pumping into the Winona character doggy style (and her screaming for Jesus). Now that would’ve made the film memorable beyond belief.

Why do so many actors seem to have trouble with Frank Oz? You never hear anything bad about him, but you always hear about actors treating him like garbage.

[quote] Lasse Hallstrom had originally been hired to direct but he wanted a darker ending where the little girl drowns. Cher wasn't having it. Emily Lloyd had originally been hired for Winona's part but got fired because Cher said she didn't look like her (Emily's response to her face was "well, you don't look like you, either"). Cher got her way and while it's a fun movie and Winona is awesome, it could have been a darker more serious film which I think would have made it better.

Winona looks nothing like Cher and neither does Christina Ricci. Cher's looks are very very distinctive from the rest of Hollywood because she's half-Armenian. I still love the cast though.

I disagree. I would totally believe both were her natural daughters.

Kim and Kourtney Kardashian, who are also half-Armenian who were both age appropriate for the Ryder and Ricci roles should have played the parts for a truly authentic familial look.

Does Chaz look anything like Cher, r42?

Well, she does, R45. Just because she’s a fat man doesn’t mean she doesn’t look like her mother.

[quote] Does Chaz look anything like Cher

Chaz has Cher's facial features. Just with blonde hair.

To be fair, Winona and Christina don't alike either. But it's a movie, so I don't expect it to look like a documentary. I just find it odd Cher would complain about an actress not looking enough like her as if that is the only quality a casting director looks for. They just look for the one best suited for the role. They can just use makeup and studio magic to make the actress resemble Cher a bit more.

I never knew about an alternate ending. That certainly would’ve changed the movie, but I can’t imagine it was ever seriously considered. The movie was mainly light hearted. I thought they were bold having the 15 yr actually fuck a 20-something who was a good guy and not a sleaze in the film.

Some of you guys are so gullible

R48 and he still wasn’t a sleaze. He was a guy trying to be good for God. He lost himself in that moment of lust.

The daughter should have died. The climax of the film is Winona getting fucked, calling her mother a tramp, and getting slapped in the face. There should have been more drama.

Cher's character was a whore and should have paid for her sins. And her daughter was also a little slut getting fucked while she should have been looking after her sister. She not only should have paid for the sins of her whore mother, but for her own whorish sins!!!

I’m glad none of that happened. Talk about a soap opera r51 just created.

What did happen rang more true.

Cher was, at minimum, ten years too old for the part.

I've never seen Mermaids. But I did watch two Winona movies on Tubi recently: Heathers (1989) and Welcome Home, Roxy Carmichael (1990). Both good!

R53 Cher was perfect in the part, and not to be questioned.

R53 shes 25 years older than Ryder. That seems pretty appropriate.

I never thought Ryder “stole the show” from Cher either, contrary to conventional wisdom at the time. Cher has always had pretty flawless comic timing and it serves her well here.

I don’t think a dark tragic ending would have worked - the ending as is fit the general tone of the movie, it wasn’t like a “tacked on” happy ending kind of thing.

I saw Mermaids when it was first released and haven’t seen it again since. All I remember is Winona being good and Cher acting like Carol Burnett playing her Mrs Wiggins character.

Who could star in a remake called Mermen? Tom Daly in the Christina Ricci role. Chi Chi Larue as Cher. Kelly Rippa's son in the Winona role. Some porn star for Michaels role.

I really liked Mermaids. It made me nostalgic for my youth growing up with a single mom (who dated a lot) and two sisters.

[quote] Hard to be respected when you're most known for voicing a pig puppet.

Beats fucking Sonny Bono to get to the top.

[quote] Emily Lloyd had originally been hired for Winona's part but got fired because Cher said she didn't look like her (Emily's response to her face was "well, you don't look like you, either").

The story was that Cher said Emily Lloyd didn’t look like her, that she didn’t believe a blonde would look like her daughter. Never mind that both of her children are blond.

Emily Lloyd was untreated bipolar and has had severe, lifelong mental health issues. I think that is more the reason she was fired.

I remember during this period or maybe around Addams Family a year after Mermaids came out, Christina Ricci did a photoshoot for Premiere magazine in which she was wearing a bikini.

In the Letters section of a later Premiere edition, Geena Davis responded and called the pictures child pornography.

R62 I remember that! It was a whole spread on child actors of the time.

She was right, too - maybe not pornography per se, but very questionable.

Yes, looking back, those photos were very sexualized r63. Actually, I cannot recall if Davis said they were child pornography but she definitely alluded to it.

Remember, that Cher had her 1st face lift and lip plumping before this movie.

Her face had changed dramatically from Moonstruck.

People did not want to cast her after this, as I remember because of the frozen face .

So it was Inutrisweet commercials and informercials informercials from here on out on out.

YouTube the nutisweet commercial

Cher still looked good here. It wasn't very distracting.

She's way too smooth and overworked in Burlesque and Mamma Mia 2.

If they had gone with the tragic ending, there would have been no point in making this little gem....

All I know is I bought that Lori Davis Hair Kit and it wasn’t great. I feared for my hair using that hair spray, it was like gorilla glue!

I did use Cher's Step workout video during this time. It was fun!

I only saw this movie once when it was released. It was a setup that didn’t really have a story. Everybody thought the “girl losing her virginity while her sister nearly died” was regressive end in poor taste - the kind of punishment not seen since 1961’s loopy Splendour In The Grass.

[quote]Remember, that Cher had her 1st face lift and lip plumping before this movie. Her face had changed dramatically from Moonstruck.

She filmed the If I Could Turn Back Time video in June 89 and Mermaids in September '89.

Her face really did change drastically between Moonstruck and Mermaids.

[quote] I did use Cher's Step workout video during this time. It was fun!

Did you actually lose any weight?

R17 Same exact thing has been said about Gaga. That she really can't act for shit, and it's really the work of the editor stitching together something that's even remotely passable. Probably true for a lot of "actors".

Strange. Did J.K. Rowling rip off that particular plot for her book The Casual Vacancy? A girl, from a broken home, is trying to get pregnant by a boy to have a home for herself and her little brother, who tragically drowns while she is having sex with the rube.

[Quote] Same exact thing has been said about Gaga. That she really can't act for shit, and it's really the work of the editor stitching together something that's even remotely passable.

Think i'm one of the few who didn't find Gaga completely terrible in AHS.

75 comments and not one mention of Bob Hoskins.

MTV used to have a show called ‘The Hot Seat,’ it featured celebrity VJs promoting their new & upcoming work. One week Cher, Christina and Winona were in the Hot Seat, I can’t believe I actually found a clip.

[quote]75 comments and not one mention of Bob Hoskins.

We have our reasons. They're well-known.

R10 "Frank Oz was hired after Halstrom left. Cher publicly bad-mouthed them both: (...) Lasse Hallstrom was nuts and Frank Oz is an idiot. Just because director is behind their name doesn’t mean that everything that comes out of their mouth is etched in stone."

From 1973 (Ring, Ring) to 1982 (When All is Said and Done) Hallstrom directed all of ABBA's music videos (and ABBA-THE MOVIE, 1977). I wonder what Lasse Halstrom thought about Cher's expressionless performance in MAMMA MIA! HERE WE GO AGAIN or about her ABBA auto-tuned horror album. He directed Johnny Depp twice, DiCaprio got his first Oscar nomination for WHAT'S EATING GILBERT GRAPE and Michael Caine won another Oscar for CIDER HOUSE RULES. But the star of CHASTITY thinks he was nuts? Never heard anything bad about Frank Oz either. But at least Cher's pain-in-the-ass phase didn't last long and she avoided to become another Madonna. Sad she didn't get along with those directors. And a few more...

From the 'Los Angeles Times' 1991 about what happened after MOONSTRUCK (1987):

She spent the next three years turning down roles, including “The War of the Roses” and the role played by Charles Grodin in “Midnight Run.” She did not get the part she wanted, playing opposite Streep in Susan Seidelman’s “She-Devil.” (Roseanne Barr got the role.) It wasn’t until 1990 that she settled on her post-Oscar film, “Mermaids,” a controversy-beset Orion project that chewed through two directors, Lasse Hallstrom and Frank Oz, before Richard Benjamin was brought on board to just wrap the whole thing up.

Q: Are you rejecting a lot of roles? You turned down “Thelma & Louise.”

A: If you look at the climate of films right now, there aren’t a lot of good films being made. Would I want to be in “Kindergarten Cop”? No. There is one movie I would have liked to have a part in--"Dances With Wolves"--but I wouldn’t want to be in most others. “Moonstruck” was kind of a fluke. You don’t see many Frank Capra kind of films. If you look at what’s been released lately, there are not a lot of great women’s roles. Except for “Thelma & Louise,” and I turned that down.

Q: Why did you?

A: It was a much rougher script when I got it. It probably would have been a good movie to do. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. I’m glad Susan (Sarandon) did it.

Q: In terms of roles and opportunities, you complained a lot about the treatment you and Michelle Pfeiffer and Susan Sarandon received during the filming of “Witches of Eastwick.” Has that changed?

A: That was like Jack (Nicholson) was the jewel and we were the prongs of the setting. We all did our job well, but the movie wasn’t about us, it was about him.

I’ve always worked uphill. I loved working with Mike Nichols (“Silkwood”) and Robert Altman (“Come Back to the Five and Dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean”). I really loved working with Richard Benjamin. I didn’t like Peter Yates (“Suspect”) or George Miller (“The Witches of Eastwick”)--there was no real connection there. I didn’t like Frank Oz, and I didn’t like Peter Bogdanovich (“Mask”). So only two directors I disliked intensely, two I had no connection with and three that I really loved. My average is OK.

I chose to do “Mermaids” against, what the hell was that movie (yawning), you know the one about divorce with Michael Douglas. . .

Q: “War of the Roses”?

A: Yeah. I knew that was going to be a hit and I thought it was a great script but I just thought it was too mean and I don’t have to do movies that I don’t believe in.

R5 & R6: Cher and Winona are fine, but the reason I'd watch this again is because of Michael.

I'm here for Jake Ryan and only Jake Ryan, bitches!

Well, got nailed for saying she was too old for the part. But I was going by the book.

In the book her character is 35 with a 16/17 year old daughter. Cher was 45.

[quote]The shoot, it turned out, proved to be a baptism by fire. Director No. 1 Lasse Hallstrom (“My Life as a Dog”) was banished when he determined to have the character of Charlotte’s younger sister (Christina Ricci) [bold]commit suicide[/bold]--a plot twist deemed far-fetched by Cher. Frank Oz (“Little Shop of Horrors”), director No. 2, tried to turn the drama into “Greek tragedy,” says Cher, devoid of irony and comedy. Emily Lloyd, initially lined up for the role of Charlotte, was replaced by Ryder, who, according to Cher, was considered a better genetic fit.

[…]

[quote]Though Ryder downplays her role in the turmoil, producer Patrick Palmer does not. “Winona led to Frank’s leaving as much as Cher did,” he states, referring to Oz’s dismissal. “I was surprised she articulated things so well.”

The full quote from above:

[quote]”Winona led to Frank’s leaving as much as Cher did. I was surprised she articulated things so well. The adult side of her is very clear, with very strong opinions. Like Cher, she's very calculating in that she knows what is good for her and does what is best for herself in the long run."

[quote]Man I’d love to get Frank Oz drunk and hear his stories

[quote]I'd love to hear Oz's Marlon Brando stories from the set of "The Score."

I’m not going to copy/paste the whole interview but here’s an excerpt:

[quote]AVC: What was your first impression of Marlon Brando?

[quote]FO: Well, first impression is unfair, because a first impression of somebody is guarded, and you don't know the person. I think after I'd had a couple of two-hour meetings with him, personally and quietly in his home, and we worked for three weeks together… And it was a hellish time, very, very tough time for him and me. But I thought after a while, first impressions are the impressions that anybody gets, looking at Marlon Brando in a newspaper. So that doesn't help. The actual person inside, I think he was tortured. I think he was distrustful, and I think he was a genius, and I think he was wonderfully childlike and innocent and very tender and sincere and sensitive.

[quote]AVC: Because of the stories about him, did you prepare yourself for the worst?

[quote]FO: I prepared myself too well. I told myself I would not allow him to turn this into The Island Of Dr. Moreau. I would not let him take over. And I was just wrong. I was not nurturing, so it is my fault, so we clashed very badly.

Directors can’t just stitch together great performances in the editing room. That’s a ridiculous statement

Cher gave Robert Altman and Mike Nichols a hard time as well in the beginning. She didn't understand why she had to recite her lines verbatim for Jimmy Dean and started improvising on stage, throwing some of the other actresses off.

Regarding Silkwood, she was very unhappy when she found out she couldn't wear makeup in the movie. However she tried wearing a little one day on set and Nichols busted her telling her to never do it again, in a tone that Cher knew meant she'd be fired if she tried it again. Nichols would have them rubber glove test her face everyday before shooting.

If you rubber glove tested her face today, I wonder what would come off?

[quote]Like Cher, she's very calculating in that she knows what is good for her and does what is best for herself in the long run.

Trying to imagine two male actors, say Jeff Bridges and Leonardo di Caprio, being described as "calculating" because they "know what is good for themselves in the long run".

Cher clearly has a huge ego but she has the talent and the audience appeal to get away with it. As for Winona, I really don't get Christian Bale arsehole vibes from her, but if she is like that when the cameras are off, then she truly is an amazing actor.

Cher is a diva. Always has been. But at least she’s a fun one, unlike J Lo and others

Winona was always an entitled weirdo.

She wanted to play Ruth in She-Devil? That part needed an ugly bitch!

Eiko Ishioka was flipping through her portfolio and came to a picture of Winona. She pointed at it and said "She a bitch".

I like Cher but I don't think she's that great of an actress to put up with that kind of drama on a set.

My boyfriend knows someone who knows Cher. He called her a bitch.

[quote] If you rubber glove tested her face today, I wonder what would come off?

Her face.

Winona seems like she'd be neurotic with awful mood swings than outright malicious. I can her lashing out at someone but calling them to apologize. Isn't she borderline or bipolar or a mix?

I wonder why they had so many kids. Did they think that if they had a certain number of kids, Candy would feel obligated to finally help? And is it worth it to Dean, to live in a house with so many kids running around, making noise? If they probably wanted Candy to pay for anything, perhaps a nanny was at the top of the list.

I wonder if Tori or Dean has ever threatened to not let Candy see her grandchildren unless she provides more financial support. I wonder if Candy has a relationship with Randy and his children.

wrong thread r97

Based on the interview excerpt at R79, I think Cher was pretty good at casting herself. I could totally see her as an inspired choice in Dances With Wolves, I can actually see her being a great Louise in Thelma & Louise (though I love the final casting) and she would've been a lot more intriguing opposite Streep in She-Devil than Roseanne Barr ever was. You can tell the air kind of went out of it all after she won the Oscar though - she had nothing left to prove.

Cher in Charles Grodin's Midnight Run role is utterly ludicrous.

Cher turned down the role of Morticia somewhere in this mess.

I would love to have seen Cher and Meryl in She Devil. Roseann was ‘meh’

I thought Roseanne was fine in She Devil. I just can't see Cher in that role, as the frumpy, abandoned housewife. If she wanted to wear makeup on Silkwood, she definitely would have wanted to do the same for SD but she really needed to look glammed down.

R102 I can't see Cher willing to make herself ugly for the role though

[quote]“Stated in 2009 interview that she had also been diagnosed with mild schizophrenia, attention deficit disorder, Tourette's syndrome and chronic insomnia.”

GOALS!

Cher's real life story- up to meeting Sonny- is more interesting. Her mom was married about 8 times.

[quote]Cher turned down the role of Morticia somewhere in this mess.

Orion wanted Cher but Sonnenfeld was very adamant that only Anjelica could be his Morticia.

I too had the Lori Davis haircare system! The conditioner and the crystalline shine were FABULOUS.

I don't remember the hairspray. I probably huffed it or used it to kill roaches in my Boston dorm room.

So Cher didn't want Emily Lloyd to play her daughter because she thought she didn't look like her? Well, she and Winona Ryder weren't exactly twins, either. I don't think there was a young actress in Hollywood who in any way resembled Cher. How could there have been? Cher had/has a very strange looking face due to all the plastic surgery.

Cher would have been a great Morticia but Anjelica did her thing. Roseanne worked well in She-Devil too.

So Cher won't do movies "she doesn't believe in?" I think that's horseshit. She just makes bad decisions, that's all. She's not that bright.

Cher in Dances With Wolves? OMG, hilarious!

Cher actually isn't Native American, her dad is Armenian. People just assumed she was Native because of her black hair, olive skin, dark eyes, nose and jawline. Cher played along with because it's not like Armenians were accepted into white mainstream America at the time. Many white Americans claimed Native ancestry like Cher's mom did. it was more acceptable to have that type of mix than be mixed with other things.

"Georgia Holt says she is of English, German, Irish, French, Dutch and Cherokee descent."

I LOVED Mermaids. I think I might even have a cassette tape of the soundtrack. It wasn't the plot--the plot was boring. It was the details. Like, Cher can't cook but is good at making appetizers. I'm like that too. And when she (Winona) shares a soda or food with the dude and thinks "now his lips are touching mine." And wanting to be Catholic. I would love to be able to go to confession and feel better after (maybe it's kind of like therapy), but I'm not Catholic.

Mermaids was kind of permission for me not to take life too seriously. I was around twenty when it came out and that's what I got out of it. They were all kind of fuck-ups but so what? They were pretty and smart and fun, each was doing her thing. I, however, was never sure if Winona and the cutie did the deed fully or not. I *think* they did, but they could have just fooled around heavily.

R109 Cher is also quite tall (5’8/9) and Winona is about 5’3 and Ricci is as short as they come. Most teenage/adult daughters are as tall or taller then their mothers (each Gen gets a little taller) - for Cher to be a full head taller than her fully grown daughter looked a little weird. So yeah, the genetics argument seemed like some bs excuse.

This thread made me go down an Emily Lloyd rabbit hole and watch “Wish You Were Here.” I bawled my eyes out. She was so good. Such a shame what happened to her

Did Cher and Winona bond on set? Was Cher maternal toward her? Did they keep in touch afterward?

Probably not, r118.

I need to watch Wish You Were Here again r117. She was so good in it. She's also really good in In Country. It came at the tail end of all those Vietnam movies at the time (Platoon, Hamburger Hill, Full Metal Jacket, Casualties of War, etc.). The last 20 minutes are really moving.

From the Mermaids interviews r118 I don't get that impression at all.

GEVINSON: What is the best advice Cher gave?

RYDER: In retrospect, I went to her for literally everything. During Mermaids, we were staying in the same building, so she was right upstairs from me. I was in my first relationship, so I got all sorts of advice. She became famous in her late teens.

Anyone see Cher's next film, Faithful/Faithless/Unfaithful/Marianne Faithful/Whatfuckingever? Well?

Faithful is worth a viewing. It's more of a play than a movie. I think it was a play first. Written by Chazz Palminteri who was a playwright. Sat on the shelf for two years and was dumped by the studio. Made $1-2 million total

The intro of the Cher character in Faithful is really clever and funny. Great few minutes even if you bail on the movie.

Cher wouldn't have worked in She-Devil. There's a specific She-Devil look...

[quote]I love Cher, but she sounds a bit nuts.

I’ve come to the conclusion that she isn’t as mellow as she tries to make people think she is and that her diva shit is one of the reasons the movie offers quit coming. She had problems with the directors/crew on Mask, The Witches of Eastwick, Mermaids, and Burlesque. And those are just the ones that I know of off the top of my head - there may have been others. She sounds exhausting. When you are having that many issues on different sets with different people, maybe YOU are the problem.

R109, it is pretty clear that it was not Lloyd's looks that got her fired. That was a face saving cover. The more likely reason was Lloyd's mental illness. Saying it was how she looked was a generous cover story to spare Lloyd any stigma.

But was Lloyd's mental illness a problem back then? She was able to do both Cookie and In Country with no issues from what I understand. I think it was maybe they wanted Lloyd all along. Apparently, Lloyd had a contract with Orion Pictures at the time so maybe they wanted a way to get around it.

Winona Ryder got "advice" from Cher about relationships? I don't think Cher was ever in a position to give anyone advice about relationships considering her track record: David Geffen (gay), Tom Cruise (gay), Gregg Allman (druggie dimwit), Gene Simmons (sleazebag slimeball), Rob Camilletti (dimwit bagel boy).

R129 what about Sonny?

[quote][R129] what about Sonny?

Dimwit Republican trash.

Cher said the love of her life was Rob, not Sonny.

I remember hearing Cher's TEA WITH MUSSOLINI contract took forever. And it was a relatively low (for a studio) budget movie. You can see them filming around her as if they only had x amount of hours on x amount of days.....She's barely in scenes with others. Script was probably rewritten for that to accomodate her schedule for the role.

I'm sure they were happy to have her but that will fuck up your prospects of being in other movies. People dont want to deal with the bullshit. Youve got to bring mega box office to behave like that.

She always blamed the informercial for her lack of movie offers in the 90’s, but I can’t help but to think that it was less about that and more about the industry getting fed up with her demands and her not getting along with directors.

What 90s roles would she have been in contention for?

I can imagine her in Serial Mom, maybe Sigourney's part in The Ice Storm.

Death Becomes Her would have been interesting in either role. She could have played the Meryl role in Before And After.

R135 She was reportedly up for Morticia in the Addams Family movies but I’m not sure what happened that it fell through. I definitely could have seen her in that role since she already had the long hair and the deadpan expression z

[quote]She was reportedly up for Morticia in the Addams Family movies but I’m not sure what happened that it fell through.

Again...

Sonnenfeld only ever wanted Anjelica for the role. To him there was no other Morticia.

R137 Well, look at you! We got ourselves a Cher super fan who has dedicated his life to memorizing random Cher trivia!

Cher as Morticia Adams would’ve been too tongue in cheek.

R139 But it would have been perfect! She would’ve barely had to act since she not only looks like her but has the same emotionless face.

Maybe you know someone who worked on Cookie and In Country, but I do not. So I have no way of knowing what she was like on those shoots.

However, mental illness does not make itself known all of the sudden. For most people it ramps up, so it would seem likely that there were already some issues.

Depending on what they did on the production, R128, might also impact what they observed. Costume and other actors always spot things. Regular PA's may or may not.

[quote]She always blamed the informercial for her lack of movie offers in the 90’s, but I can’t help but to think that it was less about that and more about the industry getting fed up with her demands and her not getting along with directors.

Someone on another Cher thread also thought that she had become a bit bored with the long movie process, and that is why she shifted back to her music. As mentioned earlier in the thread, she also did a bunch of work on her face that was painfully obvious. I do remember some critic or journalist at the time saying that it would be harder for her to play the role of a regular person with her new face.

[quote]Someone on another Cher thread also thought that she had become a bit bored with the long movie process, and that is why she shifted back to her music. As mentioned earlier in the thread, she also did a bunch of work on her face that was painfully obvious. I do remember some critic or journalist at the time saying that it would be harder for her to play the role of a regular person with her new face.

Cher hated If I Could Turn Back Time, she hated Just Like Jesse James, she hated Love And Understanding.

For someone so successful in her movie and music careers she doesn't seem to enjoy her output.

[quote]Someone on another Cher thread also thought that she had become a bit bored with the long movie process, and that is why she shifted back to her music.

Bullshit. She loved doing movies. She only went back to music because the movie offers stopped coming in.

Cher was up for the role of Rose in Titanic...so there's that.

I’m always wary of the “I’m difficult (mean) because you’re stupid” defense. It’s usually uttered by bullies of low intelligence. Every time I’ve heard this in real life, it’s been a woman with a personality disorder.

If you’re so smart, you’d know how to treat people to get things done.

Paul Rudnick, reviewing first Lord of the Rings Movie: "Saruman is what Cher would look like if she'd been allowed to age naturally."

Wasn't Cher up for the Angie Dickinson role in Dressed to Kill...oh wait...

Back to “Mermaids.” As a young kid, I wanted the ocean lamp which made it look like you were underwater with the lights off

"Dimwit Republican trash."

Of all her husbands/boyfriends Sonny was probably the least worst of them all. He was no "dimwit"; he was a savvy business man who created Sonny and Cher. Without him, there would be no "Cher." After their hits went dry and their careers tanked he reinvented the Sonny and Cher duo into a successful comedy act where he generously played the buffoon. Without Sonny, Cher would have been nothing.

He was not "trash", either. When Chastity came out as a lesbian he was completely supportive; it was CHER who had a problem with it. In a Rolling Stone article about his transitioning to male, it was stated that Chaz Bono knew if his father were still alive he would have been supportive of him 100 percent. That's the way he always was. It was Cher who had trouble coming to grips about her first born child's sexuality.

Cher is seeming like a miserable moron at this point.

So, gays, the bloom is now off of Cher's rose, eh? LMAO! Do you people like ANYBODY??!

We'll always have Helen Lawson.

The bloom on Cher's rose should have been off a long time before now. I never understood her appeal to gays in the first place. Was it because she has for decades looked like a drag queen?

She'd be a recluse watching her money very diligently if she hadn't recorded that fluke hit "Believe" in 1998. She continues to tour on the fumes of that song.

[quote]She'd be a recluse watching her money very diligently if she hadn't recorded that fluke hit "Believe" in 1998. She continues to tour on the fumes of that song.

Yep. She even says in this interview around the 35:00 mark that she had considered filing for bankruptcy around the time she did “The Witches of Eastwick.”

I actually think Cher is a pretty good actress but everytime I read even a short interview with her I lose a few IQ points. Even for an actress, she sets a record for dumb.

Her tweets are unbearable. I understand she is (was?) dyslexic but the atrocious grammar and endless emojis are painful.

Madonna has no excuse because she's not dyslexic but she has the same issues with grammar and using too many emojis.

Cher was out of her league in Tea With Mussolini. I would love to have seen Angelica Huston in that role.

I didn't hear that they all hated each other

Did our Cher do any films between Tea with Mussolini and Burlesque? I only remember her on Will and Grace during that time.

R128 I read there were issues on “cookie” namely a slapping incident between Lloyd and Peter falk (they slapped each other and this was attributed to her “frustrating” behavior at the time). If falk couldn’t handle her I wonder how it was with Faye Dunaway on “scorchers”…

I wonder what sort of film output she would have had in the long run, she really was in demand and it was never a case that she was “underrated” she actually did get the opportunities but sadly was not able to do anything with them. A lot of actors and actresses we wonder why they didn’t get further even though there’s no indication they had the opportunity but Lloyd really was on her way...

Bitches in wigs!

I remember Cher's interview with Oprah; I think it was 1991. The interview was at Cher's house, and the episode included Cher giving Oprah a tour of her home. The wall near the entrance was covered with several decorative crosses. Oprah mentioned the crosses, and she asked Cher, "are you very religious?". Cher replied something like "No, I just like the way they look." LOL

Cher's houses tended to be in atrocious bad taste. One home of hers had an "Egyptian" theme. Another one was Gothic. I don't know if she ever really lived in any of them.

[quote]Cher's houses tended to be in atrocious bad taste.

Some people might say the same about the way your house is decorated.🤷🏻‍♂️

I’ve never understood to point in criticizing the decor of a home you don’t live in. People like what they like.

After this thread I love Cher even more.

[quote]I remember Cher's interview with Oprah; I think it was 1991. The interview was at Cher's house, and the episode included Cher giving Oprah a tour of her home. The wall near the entrance was covered with several decorative crosses. Oprah mentioned the crosses, and she asked Cher, "are you very religious?". Cher replied something like "No, I just like the way they look." LOL

Was that when Cher was selling wall art on shopping channels? Singer, actress, activist, businesswoman.

I think Cher is great but I also think she is a crazyass bitch.

Which you kinda have to be in order to become a legend....that and/or die young.

At least she's saner than nutty Madonna.

R47 Winona and Christina not looking alike was a good thing for the film since they had different fathers.

Cher most certainly seems like a narcissist and a bitch behind closed doors. She is just very good at appearing friendly, warm and she handles herself with grace in public. I like her a lot as an actress and admire her struggle and comeback but I don't think I would want to work with her, be in a relationship with her or have her be my mother.

John Waters isn't a Cher fan. He's made fun of her (or, at least her films) in some of his essays.

There's also the story of how Cher was a cunt to Divine back in the day which upset Divine who had been a big fan of hers up to that point.

Cher wasn't always a super gay ally. Remember, she's the one who freaked out when Chas originally came out while Sonny was warm and accepting.

I saw this film at the cinema and all i can remember is how my bf of the time gasped at the sight of Cher in her pink polka-dot dress. i rewatched it and noted how Winona seems to have the leading role and Cher is supporting despite her top billing. Perhaps this explains why Richard Benjamin doesn't really present Cher as a star. And why is Bob Hoskins overacting madly with the eyebrows?

Overall, Cher’s movies tend to be pretty good.

Burlesque, however, scrapped the bottom of the barrel

[quote]There's also the story of how Cher was a cunt to Divine back in the day which upset Divine who had been a big fan of hers up to that point.

Cher was more of a Sylvester kind of gal.

Cher is mummified in the Mamma Mia sequel. She can barely open her mouth to speak.

Had Cher stopped fucking with her face 20 years ago, she could be playing grandmother or family matriarch type roles. But now it’s hard to cast her in anything because she didn’t look old or young - just strange.

R177 *Doesn’t

What was a great actor like Bob Hoskins doing in a movie with Cher and Winona Ryder? Picking up a paycheck, I suppose. I haven't seen this movie, but if he "overacted" it was probably because he thought "what the hell, I'm in this silly movie, I might as well ham it up."

Who the fuck are you queens trying to pretend Bob Hoskins was? The man was ham on rye.

Bob Hoskins was a great actor and, watching him now in films, he was fucking SEXY. Those eyes, that smile, that bearish body. So hot. You just don't see actors like him anymore. He'd be shaved, slimmed down or roided up and devoid of any charm or personality.

He and Cher were great together in this film. He always makes his co-stars look even better.

[quote]What was a great actor like Bob Hoskins doing in a movie with Cher and Winona Ryder?

Was this after his turn with Roger?

Yes

Bob Hoskins was in Super Mario Bros. Great actor, my azz!

"Was this after his turn with Roger?"

He was an actor. It was a high profile movie. He probably got paid very well. Nothing wrong with that. And anybody who doesn't think he was a great actor should watch "Mona Lisa."

He was fucking hilarious in Who Framed Roger Rabbitt. It's a classic.

We're criticizing Bob Hoskins???

R185 exactly, “Mona Lisa” and also “the long good Friday” are two of the ones to watch of Hoskins. “Mermaids” is not a bad film at all and both Cher and Winona were probably exciting prospects at the time so I can understand why Hoskins would want to appear in it, I think it’s one of his better films tbh.

For those who think it is a bit hard to believe that Cher would go for Bob Hoskins remember that first guy we see her with - the married man. He was plain- looking.

Oh, I'm not sure anyone would question Cher's character going for Hoskins' character. Working class women with kids to support have different priorities.

Also: Bob Hoskins is a sexy bear of a man.

Just because your preferred type is some boring skinny twink doesn't mean other types of people aren't hot.

Different strokes for different folks.

Emily Lloyd is a mess now. Do a Google Images search. Yikes!

Does anyone prefer "Men Don't Leave", also released in 1990, but, unlike "Mermaids", a box office bomb?

Men Don't Leave was a piece of fucking shit.

Roger Ebert has only ever said one true thing about film- If a movie contains a scene with a hot air balloon, you know it's bad.

Men Don't Leave was a great movie! Very underrated!

[quote]Roger Ebert has only ever said one true thing about film- If a movie contains a scene with a hot air balloon, you know it's bad.

haha

That's a good rule of thumb, but thought some of the earthbound scenes were good.

If Joan Cusack is in the hot air ballon it gets a pass.

I took a pause when Winona calls Cher the town tramp because we have only ever seen Cher with one man in town. But then I thought Winona said that in anger over Cher's kissing Michael Schoeffling.

R197 she's also spent her childhood being dragged across the country every time mom breaks up with a guy. And neither she nor her sister have any idea who their fathers are. So...fair

Which trans or black actress will be perfect for the Cher character in the inevitable Netflix remake?

R199, who else?

[quote] It's been a painful journey. It costs me something, because very rarely in my career—and in my life—have I been allowed to explore that sexual part of myself, to be given permission to know that is an aspect of my humanity, that I desire and am desired. I always felt in playing sexuality you have to look a certain way, to be a certain size, to walk a certain way. Until I realized that what makes people lean in is when they see themselves. There's no way I am going to believe that all women who are sexualized are size zero or two, all have straight hair, all look like sex kittens every time they go to bed and want sex from their man, all are heterosexual. I am mirroring women. I always say it is not my job to be sexy, it's my job to be sexual, that's the difference."

[quote]Yep. She even says in this interview around the 35:00 mark that she had considered filing for bankruptcy around the time she did “The Witches of Eastwick.”

Because she spent money like water. This was around the time she first appeared on Letterman and said she only did it because they paid her hotel bill (Which was like 50,000) even though she had an apartment down the street from the hotel she was staying at in NY. For the longest time, she tried to be house flipper a la Diane Keaton.

Post Sonny and prior Silkwood, she was commanding top dollar in Vegas alongside Sinatra. She was popular enough that she had it put in her contract that she didn't have to do the requisite two shows a night (8 and 12) she only had to do the eight o clock one. I think it was Francis Ford Coppola who asked her why she wanted to put herself through the rigors of starting over in film when she could retire on what she was making in Vegas.

When I moved to NYC to go to school, my friend/classmate worked the night desk at the Morgans hotel, and I would go hang out there to keep her company. Cher was staying there while her apartment was being renovated. I used to make many a late night delivery up to her room after she'd call down for something. She was not rude, but not friendly.

Cher has a daughter??

Winona deserved the nomination over Diane Ladd. And even Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost(who should've been nominated for The Long Walk Home).

Winona deserved to win for Little Women. She has played the best Jo. Not too butch, not too fem and with huge heart. She was heartbreaking. Never got that from the 3 other Jos

R205 I always thought Jo Beth Williams was not too butch, not too fem and with a huge heart.

No, Winona deserved to win for Girl, Interrupted, but wasn't even nominated. Also, Brittany Murphy should have gotten the Supporting nomination for that film over Angelina Jolie, who was all sorts of terrible.

I (and Google) give up, R200. Who said that?

That’s got to be Viola.

NOBODY should have been nominated for an Oscar for "Girl, Interrupted." That movie was over the top terrible. It made a complete mess out of Susanna Kaysen's memoir.

Was the memoir another “a million little pieces”? Did she claim that she exaggerated bits for dramatic effect? Both the memoir and the movie seemed so cliche to me like she’s watched various movies and read various books and mixed and matched things.

[quote]Back to “Mermaids.” As a young kid, I wanted the ocean lamp which made it look like you were underwater with the lights off

Me too, R149.

It's rich that you're complaining about the quality of Girl, Interrupted in a thread about massive piece of shit Mermaids.

R213 Mermaids is a classic you turd.

Mermaids is a POS.

[quote]For those who think it is a bit hard to believe that Cher would go for Bob Hoskins remember that first guy we see her with - the married man. He was plain- looking.

There's a scene where Rachel admits to being surprised by finding Lou sexy.

[quote]Lou Landsky : [Reacting to an odd smile from Rachel as they lay in bed together] What?

[quote]Rachel Flax : You're a sexy guy.

[quote]Lou Landsky : Do you have to sound surprised when you say that?

[quote]Rachel Flax : I [italic]am[/italic] surprised.

"Was the memoir another “a million little pieces”?"

Kaysen's memoir was credible, as far as I know. It very little resembled the movie. The movie was mostly fiction, a lot of it made up for dramatic effect. The scene that introduces Lisa, where she barges into Susanna and Georgia's room, screaming about her roommate Jamie?" Didn't happen. Lisa didn't do that; there was no roommate named Jamie. And the scene where Susanna and Lisa escape the mental institution (It was REALLY easy to do that) and crash Daisy's apartment? Didn't happen either. Lisa was a destructive force in the movie, but in the memoir she's certainly a character but is well liked by the other patients and they're cheered up by her. Yes the movie was mostly fiction and Susanna Kaysen reportedly really disliked it. But I'm sure she liked the money she got from having her memoir made into a film.

CHEEERRRRRR!!

Cher also dated Joshua Donen (born 1955) who is an American film producer.

He is the son of director Stanley Donen (one of Elizabeth Taylor's many lovers when she was young between Hilton and Wilding) and actress Marion Marshall.

I loved Bob Hoskins in the cheesy television movie The Lost World.

Bob Hoskins was also memorable in "Pennies From Heaven", the the BBC musical drama serial. It was made into a movie starring Steven Martin in Hoskin's role and co-starring Bernadette Peters. I liked it, but it flopped. Audiences just didn't "get" it.

Because of this thread I ended up watching Mermaids on Amazon Prime.

Winona Ryder, Bob Hopkins, and Christina Ricci were so charming. I wish he had played a widower and they were his daughters.

Cher was good in terms if acting, but her character was a real bitch. I really can't think of one redeeming quality Rachel Flax had.

Oh, and even though Michael Whatever...Jake Ryan...was at his peak of hotness, a 26 year old fucking a 15 year old was not cute or sweet.

On Dinah! Weird to see her talk so fast and her original face move.

Cher with a young Janet...

You can smell the stink of failure on Janet even back then.

Why did Bob Hoskins' character attend the parent–teacher night if he didn't have any kids of his own? Always thought that was stupid.

^ He says he's a small town boy who likes to know other people's business, maybe that has something to do with it. Either that or he went to see Rachel? In the shoe store he says 'maybe I'll see you at parent teacher night.'

They say you're as good as your last output, which is probably why Madge at R225 is so bitter.

everyone shitting on GIRL, INTERRUPTED:

The movie made money despite its subject matter.

Winona Ryder is still working today on Netflix's biggest show and has been since Season 1. Angelina Jolie won an Oscar and is still a household name who stars in major studio movies.

The director is currently taking over for Spielberg and directing Indiana Jones 5. He's been making GREAT movies for 25 years now.

I liked “girl, interrupted” when I saw it originally but since then I’ve seen many films that I think it borrowed from- “one flew over the cuckoo’s nest”, “Lilith”, “Lisa and David” and it left me questioning the originality of the film as well as the authenticity of the source material. It’s a fine film, but it’s nothing groundbreaking other than it’s a female dominated cast pretty much.

R230, it's David and Lisa.

Christina Applegate’s Cher was so great.

R229, "Girl, Interrupted' gets "shit" on because it was an over the top, heavy-handed melodrama that made a mess out of Susanna Kaysen's memoir. Kaysen hated the movie and called it "melodramatic drivel" but I'm sure she liked the money she got for selling the film rights.

Wow, that clip at R224 has Cher doing the robot dance with Michael Jackson. That's the first time I've seen it.

"Sometimes I feel like I'm the grown up and your the child.(as she puts a blanket over her) I can't ever imagine being inside you. I can't ever imagine being anywhere you'd let me hang around for nine straight months." I always found that voice over incredibly moving.

Charlotte Flax lost contact with her mother after her sister Kate died in a boating accident, she later settled in a small town in Indiana, changed her name to “Joyce” and had two sons.