HBO's White Lotus THREAD TWO

It’s possible it’s none of them too, OP.

Yay! A second thread for this great show.

Holding my place in this thread. I'm thrilled that we're on thread #2.

Such a compelling show!

The New Yorker did a series of cartoons based on the show. They may be spoilers and if so, Zahn is the dead body.

R5 thanks for the spoiler…

Whoever said JC’s performance on the boat wasn’t great acting is full of shit. That’s exactly what it was. She found the exact moment when a laugh turns into a sob and only genius actors can actually do that.

Like R533 on the previous thread, I also wonder what’s really going on with Rachel. Her character right now seems a bit incoherent.

Pretty sure incoherence is the point, as she's clearly having a crisis and unsure herself

R8, it could be that she's feeling uncomfortable and self conscience being out of her element around all of these wealthy, entitled people.

I rewatched episodes 1 & 2 last night to see if I missed any important clues. R8-10, when Rachel is talking to Nicole, before things turn nasty, she is clearly looking for advice. She says what's bothering her, right in the text - she's afraid of being sucked into Shane's orbit and losing herself. That's why she clings to her shitty job, that's why she worries if the marriage is purely based on sex and physical attraction, that's why she can't seem to keep away from the Mossbachers. Nicole's advice to her, after establishing the prenup wouldn't provide much were they to divorce, was that Rachel needed to hold onto herself and not give everything up for her husband.

As for Rachel's shitty job - White is clearly commenting on the state of "journalism" in its current state. Rachel is agog that Nicole found her "puff piece" upsetting, when all she did was "repurpose" a WaPo profile. That's exactly the problem and she can't see it. She claims to have done a profile on Nicole but never actually spoke to her, interviewed her, did any homework at all, she just did the usual copy pasta and then threw in some hip lingo (badass women!) to make it sound fresh. She didn't question the WaPo's sources at all. That's not fucking journalism. She doesn't know the first thing about being a good journalist. But Rachel is a thousand bloggers in NYC. She's not even good enough for Buzzfeed. No wonder she's in crisis.

And the more that I watch the two teenage girls, the less I think that Olivia is in love with Paula, and the more I am starting to believe its just that Olivia's wokeness is going to be challenged when she realizes that the reason Paula is hiding her little fling with the Hawaiian waiter is that she values the little respite of being out of white circles. That Olivia can be as woke as she wants but it still doesn't change the fact that she's a white girl who's had everything handed to her. She has absolutely no clue how the other half lives. She'll never be able to share everything with her BFF.

"as she's clearly having a crisis and unsure herself"

And also just not very bright.

R6 I could be totally wrong. It’s just the way I interpreted one of the cartoons. Also, The New Yorker isn’t some hard to find underground zine, plebe.

R12 How did you come to that conclusion? She seems quite smart.

Just finished the first three episodes.

-Anyone noticed how the son has disproportionate body? His head is huge and limbs short. He's like s midget, but tall.

-Why did the wealthy family that can afford a holiday in a fancy Hawaiian resort booked a suite with only one room when there's five of them? Just so we can see siblings fighting and son sleeping on the beach? There's no other explanation.

-Why did Alexandra Daddario's character married her husband? She's not a golddigger and that would be the only reasonable explanation. He's goofi looking, she's drop dead gorgeous. He's kinda dumb, doesn't care about her passion and her life goals. They have absolutely nothing in common.

-Is Jennifer Coolidge on a ton of downers all the damn time?

R15 Most of these questions were answered in the first White Lotus thread.

"How did you come to that conclusion? She seems quite smart."

Let me count the ways. She doesn't seem to understand that "repurposing" someone else's article isn't actually journalism. She doesn't understand that the subject of the article might take offense to being accused of taking advantage of the MeToo movement to advance her career. She doesn't seem to have considered that marrying an extremely wealthy spoiled brat might have an impact on her own career. The list goes on and on...

Is Connie Britton a lezzy?

(R18)

Would be perfect if Paula and Olivia are both in the casket. If there is a second season I only want Murray Bartlett, his staff and Jennifer Coolidge to return. Damn Connie Britton - you left Buck in 9-1-1 for this family?

No, R18. Most recently with Jason Mantzoukas. "Britton" is her first husband's last name.

R21 She divorced 25 years ago. A lot of gays were married to the opposite sex when younger.

To the people in the previous thread saying Rachel should be happy that her husband only thinks of sex and wants to do it with her all the time: what the hell are you smoking? Dude is ugly as shit and also a simpleton. She's like 20 leagues above him.

Mantzoukas was in the past few years. Bi or straight.

In episode two Mark said to his son: “Get out of the closet!” Quinn was sleeping in a closet in the first episode. Hidden in plain sight.

^^already discussed. It appeared Quinn was probably gay, but in ep 3 we saw he was jacking to lesbian porn. How many gay men do you know get off on lesbian porn?

I love how DLers try to wish someone gay or lez (example: Connie Britton, above). Say it enough and make it true.

I think Tanya merely describing herself when she mumbling about her "nymphomaniac and very cruel" mother.

And Steve Zahn will have gay sex with Murray Bartlett one way or another.

I'd have more respect for JC if she showed a bit more range.

So looking forward to tonight’s episode.

"It appeared Quinn was probably gay, but in ep 3 we saw he was jacking to lesbian porn. How many gay men do you know get off on lesbian porn?"

Did you not see the part where he gave up in frustration?

EvErYoNe Is GaY

I would love to suck Lukas Gage's cock (he plays Dillon) and suck every drop of his beautiful semen.

[quote] I would love to suck Lukas Gage's cock (he plays Dillon) and suck every drop of his beautiful semen.

His semen might be beautiful, but dear God, have you seen his apartment?!? Pitiful.

[quote]Did you not see the part where he gave up in frustration?

Did you not notice where he was? In front of a stunning landscape that many people don't get to see. I thought it was a commentary on Quinn suddenly not being able to get the momentary pleasure he was accustomed to because the environment is finally affecting him. We might see him completely off the internet by the end of the series.

I don’t think the Baby Jane reference is in Shane’s wheelhouse.

I wish we had more insight into Dillon as a character. Is he supposed to be gay or straight? Don't think a straight guy would so easily give into their lecherous boss for a quick high and a couple better shifts.

Holy shit, that episode was awesome. Bartlett was on FIRE. Fantastic performance. The flirting with Zahn is sublime, I love it. But as things escalate between Armand and Shane, I worry about the fallout.

The preview for next week - was that a robber in their hotel room that Zahn is trying to tackle? Maybe the dad is the one in the box, but honestly I have no idea at this point.

The shots under water pointing up towards floating Quinn and the sun were really beautiful.

Lol fair r36, that line could be lifted straight from this place, but probably isn't a reference a broey thirty something straight guy would make.

A lot of working at nonprofits is trying to raise money from wealthy people. Mollg Shannon's character was speaking the truth.

[Quote]The preview for next week - was that a robber in their hotel room that Zahn is trying to tackle?

A lot of focus this episode on those $75,000 bracelets....

[quote] Is he supposed to be gay or straight?

He's young. I think the idea here is that he's bi. Or is about to realize that he's bi.

R31 It looks like you were right.

I don't think the show was trying to say Quinn is gay, though yes it was confusing cause some of the guys were hot. I think the intent was showing him fascinated by how happy and one with nature the group was.

I mean Lukas Gage is 26 r41, that's not *that* young. Was just wondering, the scene would play slightly different for me depending on whether the character was supposed to be gay or straight.

Also if he is straight there is no way he would be walking around with a butt that is clean enough to eat! Murray must have loved shooting that scene. Getting paid to be in Hawaii and and play around with Lukas Gage' cakes.

Who cares how old Lukas Gage is? He could be playing someone three years younger. Shocking, I know, but actors sometimes play characters who are not their same age.

I totally get where the kids were coming from during dinner, and Paula practically sneering that it was "time for someone else to eat at the table", but unfortunately, I kind of agree with the father. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Great episode! Wow!

Have we abandoned the original thread?

Nice little ass on Lukas Gage,

I don't think Lukas Gage is hot at all. That other blond employee, the one that turned in the green sack, is hot. To me it would have made more sense if that was the one he went for.

Odds on Paula and/or Olivia helping someone steal the bracelets to give to Kai to help with legal fees?

Since the other thread is abandoned, I'll repeat: the doubling up of staff is ridiculous. The restaurant would have its own staff, and the spa manager wouldn't be doing double duty as the night manager

I know who the dead person is. No one has really focused on this person yet. Lots of foreshadowing this ep.

Give us three possibilities.

R52

1. The scuba instructor.

2. The doctor.

3. Christie.

How many times did Lukas and Murray rehearse their scene in their rooms?

I got the feeling last night the dead person would be Quinn.

God, I love this show. It's Wild Things x Gosford Park with the intrigue of both.

At this point, my guess is that Momma Molly Shannon dies. Her asshole son looked too bothered in the airport not to have suffered some kind of loss but I don't think it's his wife. I think his wife is going to leave him, so he'll be totally alone. That's what I hope, anyway. And the wife is going to have to do something really vicious before this is all over. She is the only likable person on the island, and I feel like that has to be a cover for some kind of surprising secret. I don't see any white person getting out of this show without total condemnation by the end, except maybe the son, who might join the Hawaiian crew team and get himself a redemption and a tan.

Tanya is definitely going to bail on the poor spa lady.

The bitch daughter is such an evil predator.

[quote] Why did the wealthy family that can afford a holiday in a fancy Hawaiian resort booked a suite with only one room when there's five of them? Just so we can see siblings fighting and son sleeping on the beach? There's no other explanation.

The mom is totally controlling, and now we know she can't trust her husband. She needs to keep everyone under her watchful eye.

Nah, R56, I think it’ll turn out Shane is pissed at the airport, not distraught. He won’t have gotten Armand fired, and his obsession with getting Armand fired will make Rachel tell him to go fuck himself or something. That, or because he couldn’t get Armand fired, he’ll feel his honeymoon was ruined. I really think Quinn on the beach with the waves coming over him was the foreshadowing.

I don’t know why people are going on about the suite. You don’t often see suites at resorts with an endlesss numbers of bedrooms. If anything, you’d think they’d get the girls their own separate room, but the mom is controlling, and maybe there isn’t availability? I’m not sure why this is such a sticking point in the plot for people.

So many possible homicide victims. Maybe Paula does in her "friend" for moving in on her new man. I'd be okay with that.

[quote] Why did the wealthy family that can afford a holiday in a fancy Hawaiian resort booked a suite with only one room when there's five of them? Just so we can see siblings fighting and son sleeping on the beach? There's no other explanation.

This is why this series, and HBO more than any other media outlet, is excellent: irony and subtext. This series is addressing all our real-world cultural problems and trends, including both their actual stakes for marginalized people and the ignorant, self-serving and self-preserving ways non-marginalized people are embracing them. And it also is commenting on the reality that the power struggles are about becoming dominant, without feeling a need to backtrack (so far).

Olivia has paired herself up with Paula in such a way as to dominate her and prey on her, to the point Paula is sneaking around out of sight, but we see that when given any opportunity, Paula emulates and aligns herself with Olivia. Olivia has greater power—money, advantages, the family that brought them there—and Paula is driven to sneak away from it in the dark, but she ultimately ties herself to it as long as it benefits her.

The son is assaulted by everyone in the family and totally passive about it. His mother controls everyone. She makes the money, she calls the shots. His sister and her friend humiliate him at every turn. His father has yielded power to his wife and so he assaults the weakest person in the pack by forcing him to listen to inappropriate comments whenever they're together. He has seen his dad playing with his balls, has heard his dad talk about his balls, about his grandfather butt fucking, watched his dad eye-rape a random young woman. Quinn needs to get out one way or another because he has no power.

The asshole and Molly Shannon singing "it's all about the money" is the theme of the whole show. It's about the money, which is a manifestation of power. It's not about sex or sexuality, not about race, not about anything deeper than a hierarchical power struggle, with people at the bottom compromising themselves to get a leg up the ladder and people at the top obliviously controlling everything they contact or losing their minds when someone else doesn't yield control.

The young wife is going to get some kind of upper hand by the end, no doubt. She is disempowered. The son may opt out of this life and into another way of being so he can access a sense of purpose. He's got nothing going for him. The hotel manager hasn't backed down from a fight yet. He appears to be in a powerless situation, at the beck and call of hotel guests, but he ultimately pulls all the strings at the hotel and so he is the overlord as the boss of the resort staff and the man who can provide or deny anything to the rich vacationers.

[quote] At this point, my guess is that Momma Molly Shannon dies.

That would also explain Rachel's absence at the airport.

Since the coffin is being sent to Honolulu, it shouldn't be any of the locals who work at the hotel.

And it can't be someone totally obvious. I think the wife is way too obvious and the son is also too obvious at this point.

I just listened to a podcast interview of a murder-mystery novelist and she said that readers of her genre are addicted to the genre and they've seen every possible variation of cause and effect, and so her most important job is to set up scenarios that can be clues and causes and to subvert them in unexpected ways. For example, she said, the protagonist will put potentially (but not definitely) incriminating evidence in a desk drawer, and the reader will expect that will play a role in the resolution. Then the author will burn down the house, destroying the potential evidence but not resolving whether it would or would not have pointed to the killer.

Anyone who is any good at this sort of genre is expert at red herrings and subverting expectations.

R7 She could be reading the phone book aloud and still make me giddy

If Quinn dies on the beach, it's as a result of the girls pushing him out of the suite. If he dies in the water, it's because his father's fake manhood duel with nature turns out to be a real one and it fulfills the prophecy that young white men have it tough. It also could have been avoided if someone bought Quinn a new set of happy boxes, so, in a way, the whole family is responsible for his death but unlikely to realize they never knew him. That fits perfectly because I can't think of anyone else's death that will implicate as many people. People get killed falling off mountains. It doesn't indicate a crime. The crime is either the drug bust or the likely jewel theft. Who gets caught?

Many signals that Tanya will disappoint Belinda, in fact so many that I'd expect a plot twist involving the pregnant trainee who is back for the last two episodes.

Shane is the worst of all the characters, being nothing more than a heterosexual white male "alpha" type who can only be satisfied when he has the greatest advantage of anyone. (Notice that he was only OK with the idea of someone else being in "his" better suite after talking to those people—a heterosexual German couple, of all things! Literally the apex of Aryan white power.)

So viewers need Shane to suffer the most. If he loses his trophy wife, the mother who made him such a precious monster and never gets the suite he feels entitled to, that will be satisfying in the end. And to the point above, Shane can still be obsessed with revenge against the hotel manager even after losing his mother and his new bride. That would be totally in character. One thing is for sure with this series: we are not going to see personal character growth of the sort that is generally expected from fiction. Everyone terrible will be true to their natures and suffer accordingly, and people who are oppressed by systems are likely to come out with strong characters but no more power than they went in with.

Nicole may have insisted on the entire family sharing one suite in order to force "family bonding time" or some such shit.

I don't feel any sympathy for the wife. Shane was always like this, he didn't suddenly become an asshole on the honeymoon.

Do people get “killed” falling off mountains, R65? They surely die, but saying they were “killed” doesn’t sound right to me.

I don't think the question is really about whose death will be most satisfying for the audience since the guests are more annoying than hateful. I don't think his wife has the gumption to leave him. I think that we'll return to the opening scene and have her rush in from the bathroom where she was delayed. She will be tuning him out just as Nicole does her husband. Shane's anger and disgust will be caused by his failure to get the manager fired.

SPOILER

Some critic wrote that the manager shits in Shane's suitcase. Maybe Shane does get him fired, but the manager has the last laugh.

R69, they are killed in tragic accidents.

If I had to pick 2 stand out performances in this it would be Murray Bartlett and Sydney Sweeney.

Both characters are playing roles they can't quite keep up.

The show has been one of the most enjoyable I've seen this year. There's uncertainty about what's going to happen, but no confusion. I would have binged this in a day had it all been available in one go.

The Lukas obsessive needs to leave the thread.

Reality alert: you’re the ONLY one who cares.

He must also be behind the separate Lukas thread, R73.

R68, you don't understand a person like Shane. He's a narcissist. They are so different when they want someone. There's a phase called lovebombing, when it's all romance, compliments and lots of attention. They make you feel like you're their soulmate and like you're the only person in the world. They shower you with gifts, expensive dinners, the whole nine yards. Then, after they have you locked in, their real personality comes out. Controlling, angry, petty and vindictive. And a narcissist never forgets even the smallest and most insignificant slight.

Rachel even said last night, "What did I get myself into?" Like Rachel, you don't see it coming until it's too late.

There’s also being love blind, R75. People always show you who they are, if you’re paying attention.

I love this series. Everyone is incredible, but Murray Bartlett. Wow. He elevates this show to the next level. He is a revelation. Like I said, I think the show is great, the writing is phenomenal, but Murray Bartlett is the best part of it.

Spoilers and plot points from imdb summary 6

'

Ep 6 'Rachel shares some harsh truths with Shane and confides in Belinda, who's reeling from bad news of her own." What does she tell him? That he's a jerk and she doesn't love him? Seems too simple. Belinda does indeed get the kibosh.

"As the Mossbachers turn the page on their harrowing scare, Quinn reveals major life plans." What's their harrowing scare? The jewel heist? Is a burglary harrowing? This sounds as if Quinn wants a career as an environmentalist or beach bum instead of going to college. If Quinn doesn't die, maybe it's Rachel, killed in some sort of accident by Kitty, who can't remember anything and has early stage dementia. So, the joke's on us. It is Rachel, after all.

"With nothing left to lose, Armond goes on an all-out bender - and exacts the ultimate revenge on his nemesis." Armond is indeed fired. Shane discovers the poop when he goes through baggage check. Hence, the scowl.

I don't get the poster upthread (r50) who takes issue with Belinda letting Shane into Armand's office.

Shane only sees her near the restaurant but recognizes her as the spa manager (I take it she was leaving for the day) and as someone who would have access to getting to Armand.

What if Paula is the one who dies? There's so much foreshadowing of her illnesses, which sound bogus but might be real.

Thinking that when Tanya's boyfriend is revealed as the thief, she becomes too unhinged to discuss a business plan.

Did anybody else think the actor who plays BLM guy Greg was a semi-famous actor who'd aged almost beyond recognition?

He looked so familiar but then when I looked him up it was a name - Jon Gries, I think - that I didn't know. Is he someone others recognize from other films/TV?

John Gries is one of my favorite character actors! He is:

Uncle Rico in “Napoleon Dynamite”

Lazlo Hollyfeld in “Real Genius”

He was also in “Lost”

He was Lazlo in Real Genius!??!!? WOW! I was so in love with him as a gayling.

Oh wait, I was thinking of Val Kilmer's character @R83.

That Tanya would think this white middle-aged man was at an exclusive Hawaii resort in conjunction with his BLM activism is further evidence of how loopy she is.

[quote]So many possible homicide victims

I really don't think this is a homicide. Like another poster said, people are 'killed' in freak accidents all the time.

The new guy who went out with Tanya is definitely suspect. That entire drunken bit at the door of her suite, pretending he had mistaken the room, was all an act, for sure. I immediately pegged him for a Dirty John.

[quote] I really don't think this is a homicide. Like another poster said, people are 'killed' in freak accidents all the time.

Perhaps, but the woman at the airport in the first episode said she had heard someone had just been "killed" at the hotel. If it was other than a homicide, wouldn't you expect her to say that she had heard someone had "died" there?

Does it even matter? To me the joy of this show is as character study, I am not consumed with knowing who dies.

I actually thought starting with the death and flashing back was a bit of a cheap way of hooking people in, but I guess whatever works.

Connie Britton is using Goldie Hawn’s trick of hiding wrinkles behind her hair in her face. Connie does have great hair though.

I like Murray so much better in this part than as Mouse in Tales of the City

R85 I think your observation is correct, but also factor in that 1) Tanya is overtly loopy, and no further evidence of that is really necessary to know it and 2) it's a black comedy and some aspects of the story and performances are there for humor. The BLM thing was an obvious misunderstanding that did inform our knowledge of her character's cluelessness, but also it's just funny that she would be so dumb without needing to be dissected.

How does someone get drugged up and eat ass in one's office without locking the door or closing the blinds?

R88 That's why I liken the show to Gosford Park and Wild Things. Both are sort of puzzles, one of them a murder mystery, but the brilliance of them is the character interactions and the tones. When the people who participated in the killing in Gosford Park is revealed, there's some satisfaction in knowing but that really wasn't the objective of the movie. And as revelations are made at the end of Wild Things, they're interesting and unexpected, but it's really the over-the-top wild ride that makes the movie fun despite being so tacky and out there.

I am really, really loving this show. HBO is living up to my expectations for HBO this year! I officially forgive them for The Undoing.

I watched the episode interview hoping for BTS on the gay scene and holy shit, Mike White looks like a corpse. He has butthole eyes

For other fans of cinematography, when the office door opens and we see Armond eating out Dillon, I had to laugh at the lens they used.

It stretched both actors to make them look really skinny. Rewatch it and check it out. LOL.

Since I am in Canada, I don't get to see the Inside the Episodes after they air, so thanks for the link and the reminder, R94. Mike White really doesn't look all that different to how he's always looked. But what I liked about those interviews is that the cast really are able to articulate very clearly what is up with their character and they all seem sharp as hell. And Lacy knows Shane obviously and understands him to a T. I really liked his insights into the character.

R50, unless you're talking about a small, boutique island resort. It's not uncommon at all to have employees, especially managers wearing several different hats.

Armond eating out Quinn would have been even hotter

R98 Quinn is a teenager, Milo.

The person in the coffin probably got there because of something that idiot Shane does. So it could be anyone. My guess is either Kitty or Armond.

[quote] Armond eating out Quinn would have been even hotter

To each his own, but I find Quinn to be most unfortunate in his appearance.

I have thought the Quinn actor has been unfortunate looking in all of his roles. At least in this one, he's not quite as annoying as he usually is.

Yeah Quinn is supposed to be in highschool I assume so that would be a bridge too creepy for thr Armand character.

Sorry, I take it back. I know he's 21 in real life and I didn't think about the character being underage.

R104 He's 26!

With MARE OF EASTTOWN, HACKS and THE WHITE LOTUS, HBO has once again made Sunday MUST-SEE TV Night!

R104 / R105 My mistake. 21.

No double, and the tragic tattoo is real

Maybe Quinn will rape and murder Olivia.

Considering it’s Mike White, I wouldn’t be too surprised.

R109 His sister? 😐

The Baby Jane mention was striking in how it didn’t belong in the mouth of its speaker. Mike White would know that reference, but his character wouldn’t.

I think the chick at the AV Club must visit Datalounge because she both believed that Quinn was checking out the buff Hawaiian kayakers because he's gay and also does not trust that Shane has ever watched WHTBJ.

I thought Quinn was in high school too, but when the mom and the daughters are at the pool in ep. 4, she says something like "young guys like Quinn who are just getting out of college..." Unless she means it in a more vague generality, like people in his age group.

But then the daughter and friend are clearly written to act like they're college students so it wouldn't make sense that Quinn is in college too....

As someone mentioned earlier, they could be foreshadowing someone we're not expecting.... there was a pretty obvious line someone mentioned about someone getting taken by the tides...

When Molly Shannon's mother character arrives, is she making veiled insults at Rachel? I mean aside from the obvious one about her looking pale. It would make sense as women who act that way (that I've known), are pretty fake and gossipy.

She keeps saying she doesn't remember the wedding AT ALL. Wtf is that supposed to mean? I feel like she is trying to diminish it or something because she doesn't like the fact that Shane got married much less to someone like Rachel.

She talks about how the wallpaper in the suite gives it "character" and eyes Rachel up and down as she says it.

Also glares at Rachel when Shannon's character says the whole suite thing is a "touchy subject."

Every time I see the actor playing Quinn in the water, all I can focus on is his impending baldness. The scalp is really visible, even Zahn has more hair and he's in his 50's and the Quinn actor is 21.

I think the mother is kind of hoping that the marriage is a bust.

One thing I have to wonder about - was the idea of Shane knowing the Baby Jane reference a clue? Lol, I mean, did you get a look at those pants he wore to dinner??

Also, I really don't buy Paula as a sympathetic character. Anyone with that many made-up illnesses is a con artist at heart.

I want to backhand Rachel with her fucking vocal fry, “let me whine about my career for the hundredth time while opening my eyes really big to underscore my helplessness”…

SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP. BITCH!

I really wish someone would shove a dick in Rachel’s mouth. She’s unbelievably annoying.

R79 I didn't take issue with her opening the office door (she didn't let him in). And no, she was behind the front desk printing out her business plan, which she could've done at the spa. Also, she'd changed from her spa uniform into one like the other non-spa staff were wearing, so she was clearly on duty.

[quote]Shane is the worst of all the characters, being nothing more than a heterosexual white male "alpha" type who can only be satisfied when he has the greatest advantage of anyone.

No wonder he has so many defenders on DL

Anyone else can't stand Molly Shannon? Don't mean just this character, in general?

R122, can’t stand her. Always overacts and is not funny.

I just love the opening sequence. The wallpaper pictures and that song.

And all the music in the show, even though it can get pretty loud at times and overused a bit. Anyone knows where one can find more music like this? Don't say google Hawaiian music, cause the results will be totally different. Still nice relaxing ukulele music. But a lot different than the music in the show.

Also love the shirts that Armond is wearing. Not your typical Hawaiian flower shirts.

R97 Not OP Yeah, but they wouldn't be working two shifts like Armond and Belinda, the spa lady, are doing. And would someone like Armand who works the front desk and greets guests when they get off the boat be in charge of bookings, since he reserved the wrong room for the newlyweds? Wouldn't they have someone in the office on the computer who would be in charge of things like that?

Yeah, for an expensive swanky resort, they have a tiny staff. But filming during COVID...understandable

To be honest I don’t understand all this hate towards Rachel, my boyfriend also dislikes her. I find her to be very sympathetic, I can understand all of her reactions. She has married a narcissistic asshole, do you really think she had clue of his real persona since the very beginning of their relationship? Do you think that’s how narcissism works?

I’m absolutely loving Bartlett’s performance.

The only reasons I can see to dislike Rachel are her cluelessness about her journalistic prowess (She's very clearly made out to be an unwitting hack.) and her foolish relationship. I guess if poor self-awareness and decision making about relationships is a reason to hate someone, then so be it, but her nature is bettet than all the other vacationers. The only people she has judged harshly are the family members who have treated her terribly. She's bothered that her husband is an asshole to the staff, she has urged him to drop it, and to be fair, she is on her honeymoon, not just any old vacation, and so it's understandable to me that she hasn't gone off. She is trying her best to make good memories, but every day she knows more clearly that she made a huge life mistake.

I was impressed with Molly Shannon's performance this week. She didn't do a big SNL character. She was loud and brash and annoying but not really comical. I thought the way she said "NO" when Rachel said she wanted a job was really well done. It could have been done comically but it really came out as the mother-in-law barking a command at Rachel. And that was funny in a black comedy way, not a sitcom way. I think Molly Shannon is well cast in this role. Rachel has a quiet, fragile demeanor. Paula said she (Paula) is an "extremely sensitive person," but Rachel seems like she actually is sensitive to stimuli and she kind of braces herself when people are loud or aggressive toward her—the girls at the pool, the dad at the bar, her husband everywhere—so pairing her with the brashness of Shannon feels like an assault against Rachel's nature to me.

It’s so boring....and that music...

I was intrigued by Jake Lacy's nipples, their color appears to be undifferentiated from that of his skin. Then I saw a photo of his tattoos, he's clearly wearing a fair bit of body makeup.

R130 I love the music.

Is Rachel going to stay in Hawaii volunteering on indigenous people vs. the government thing, that was talked about in the last episode? Or maybe write an article about it?

Love the writing. Love the cast. Love the music. Love the tone. I haven't been so invested in a series for a while. It feels so fresh.

Agree with r126 -- think the small hotel staff is just a side effect of this being filmed during COVID and those are threads that don't need to be yanked at; outside of their hands. This show would have a bigger cast if it had been made normally, but then it wouldn't have been made at all if not for COVID.

Does anything else think that Jennifer Coolidge's character is going to treat Belinda the spa manager really badly, especially after she's gone to the trouble of typing out her business proposal?

R135 Maybe it was out of their hands, but they could've written around it. Specifically writing the staff characters into double roles when they don't need to be is odd. For example having Armand be the host at the restaurant - that's not something that's been forced on them, that's a deliberate choice.

R136 I think everyone does at this point.

[quote]Anyone else can't stand Molly Shannon? Don't mean just this character, in general?

I love her and every role she's played.

It's odd that the very hot young white guy (not Lukas Gage) who works at the spa....is he a waiter, bell hop??....isn't used in more scenes.

Is Mike White an albino?

I'm surprised so many people are hung up on the staffs' jobs.

I get that every work of fiction has to build a world, but whether a staff person wears multiple hats or not just doesn't rise to any level of importance to me. It's totally inconsequential.

If we were watching a play, we might even see the same actors play more than one character.

As long as the story is there, I'm there for the story.

I mean, American Horror Story creates distinct roles but the story is always unwatchable and terribly written. I'd much rather watch something as compelling as this show and shrug off the particulars like the spa manager also being a masseuse and doing other odds and ends around the small resort. Who cares?

The hot waiter who found the bag is Alec Merlino who took part in reality show based on a Destiny's Child song.

Molly Shannon deservedly won Best Supporting Actress in 2017 at the Film Independent Spirit awards for OTHER PEOPLE. She was excellent. I wish she'd gotten an Oscar nom.

I’m more concerned that the staff seems to be working seven days a week and twenty hours a day, that seems more unrealistic then fulfilling multiple roles at the resort.

[quote]If we were watching a play, we might even see the same actors play more than one character.

What a stupid comparison

I mean it's the same complaint r144. They seem to be working a ton of hours because it is a small number of characters that work there.

But really it doesn't bother me, it's a TV show! You need a more manageable sized cast, even moreso as a covid production.

If I had to come up with a criticism of the show, it would be the way it appears to be a social commentary about class divides, but it really just focuses on the wealthy white people and pushes everyone else to the sidelines.

I went to Honolulu a couple of years ago with my dad and sister, and we did all the typical touristy things, including a luau, a tour of the island that stopped in for 'cultural experiences,' etc. We also took Ubers to various locations. All the drivers talked at length about how the islands are just barely livable because of the expenses, and the lack of work available to local Hawaiians. Several different people told us they are lucky to have inherited their family homes, which can't be taken away from them yet, but they all sounded insecure about that. One said they wouldn't be able to live anywhere at all on the island on the wages they are paid, and they said that there's no opportunity for better work no matter how well educated or ambitious a person is. Two different people who drove us places pointed out an expensive private school where wealthy (white went unmentioned) kids, including movie stars' children, go to school, and how poor the public education system in Hawaii is.

It all sounded really dire, and I sat there thinking, Jesus Christ, white Americans are really horrible people, and wondering how the local people don't hate every one of us. But I assumed they were repressing a lot of anger (although they were pretty blunt about telling us about the unfairness and coldness of it) and that they had probably been conditioned to accept it more or less as normal.

After the trip, I watched Lilo & Stitch for the first time, and I was really surprised to see that the movie depicted how desperate the economic conditions are for Hawaiian people. Lilo's older sister, who is her caregiver in the movie, takes literally any job she can find, including working at fruit stands and dancing for tourists. Mortifying.

So for the show to present this upstairs/downstairs dichotomy and use the local people only for color kind of rubs me the wrong way. It's still making a point that I am receiving, but my mind is stuck on the poor woman who was working until she literally gave birth. Hello? Where is she? What happened to her? I'm not going to be satisfied with the nasty tourists just getting their just desserts in the end. I want to see at least a couple of the local people come out ahead.

[quote] All the drivers talked at length about how the islands are just barely livable because of the expenses, and the lack of work available to local Hawaiians

Because none of that kind of thing is going on anywhere else in America.

I do imagine that working in hotels, restaurants and retail there is basically an indentured servitude, I’m surprised they don’t bring in Eastern Europeans and put them up in substandard housing and force them to work the hours the characters seem to be performing.

R148 Have you been to Hawaii? It's more expensive than New York City, and the majority of local people work in the service industry, wiggling their fannies for wealthy tourists or driving them around and living off poi.

[quote]I want to see at least a couple of the local people come out ahead.

So you want to watch a fairy tale.

R150 The stats don't back up your claim of it being more expensive than NYC. But I get it, you only care about poor people if they're a different colour from yourself.

R152 Um, yes, they do.

1. Hawaii

Cost of Living Index: 196.3

Grocery Cost Index: 167.7

Housing Cost Index: 336.3

Transportation Cost Index: 138.8

Hawaii is the most expensive state to live in in the United States. Hawaii has a cost index of 196.3. The average home price in Hawaii is $1,158,492. The utility index is the highest in the country at 189.5, and the average monthly energy bill is $388.65. Basic physical goods, such as a half-gallon of milk, cost more than anywhere in the mainland United States because they need to be shipped to the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

How did slumpy prefame Chris Pratt live there, he seems to lazy.

R153 Except you specifically claimed New York City.

R155 You are tedious.

This is an interesting perspective from a native Hawaiian who moved to the East Coast for a more ambitious life and then decided to go back home to retire.

In reality, this resort is spacious and airy, with loads of special privileges for the people staying in suites so they never have to wait in a breakfast buffet line. White went out of his way to make the place monotonous and congested. where the one tour boat is small and trashy and the only thing for guests to do is to sit in front of a pool. Also, the likelihood of island fisherman docking on the hotel beach-please. If anything, people would be doing morning yoga there.

White has chosen to make this place less attractive than it is so that the guests seem like prisoners and have nothing interesting going on in their lives. The women are there to change outfits, get spa treatments and work on their tans. Seeing the same five staffers over and over really conveys the sense that this place is a fleabag. The guests might as well be at Trump's Doral.

R144 they likely work long hours during the peak and shoulder seasons and less during off-season. It's pretty common in resort areas.

So, we know that Lukas Gage was in a hotel room and not an apartment when the audition director insulted his living arrangements. Was it while he was filming this? The articles I read said they were staying at the Four Seasons where they were filming. So did the director insult the Four Seasons?

[quote]I’m more concerned that the staff seems to be working seven days a week and twenty hours a day, that seems more unrealistic then fulfilling multiple roles at the resort.

The show seems to be giving us a full day with each episode. We've seen the staff coming into work in the mornings, or getting off shift. So in this vein, they've worked four days. Seeing as a normal work week is five, it doesn't seem like they are overworked just yet. Doing an 11-7 shift one day and an 8-4 shift another day is not unheard of in the service industry.

Jennifer Coolidge is going to turn out to be pinball machine WACKO!

R156 2014, really? Try something from this year. I also notice you were unable to reject the initial accusation.

Steve Zahn acts like Connie Britton's little brother, not her husband. I like that we have no idea what he does, what he's involved in, or "what do you stand for?" He couldn't even answer that.

Great scene where Molly Shannon is talking about "giving back" and all her charity work while the natives are dancing like monkeys for the entertainment of the white people, who stole and developed a resort on the exact land they're dancing on.

I am curious what Steve Zahn does Asa career.. He does well enough that he still has 75k of his own money to spend on the bracelets. So even though not as high up as his wife quite successful still.

[quote] Steve Zahn acts like Connie Britton's little brother, not her husband.

A lot of blue-collar adjacent dudebros act this way. They might have a little education and/or money, but they never really seem to grow up. You’ll see a lot of them latch onto controlling women who do everything for them, including being breadwinners.

Alpha men tend to want young, dumb trophy wives. So alpha women end up with these beta moocher types.

At last that’s how it was in Gen X. Hopefully things are getting better.

I'm so tired of hearing of "alpha men" and "betas". Just fetish-talking by bottoms.

You actually see it the most with straight guys r168. All that red pill/pick up artist culture bullshit is obsessed with being an alpha or beta.

Nah, R168, you hear alpha/beta all over. My straight women friends use it, too.

The artistic/cultural/literary references are interesting. Zahn mentions Gogol. The girls are reading Paglia, Franz Fanon, Paglia, Freud and Nietzsche. Paula mentions Hecate, which she mispronounces. Shane's references of Sweet Baby Jane. They all feel like very odd references for these dodos.

R171, I agree that the What Ever Happened to Baby Jane reference was off for a straight man in his thirties. It would have made more sense if Armond said it. The literary references make sense to me, though. Every upper-class kid I went to college with had already read Nietzche in high school. These are wealthy, educated people even if they behave like morons.

I know so many women like Connie B. Talks the talk, knows all the right lingo and sounds compassionate and educated around diversity and inclusion matters, speaks eloquently and with awareness, then totally ignores it all--and her own children--and does fuck-all behind closed doors.

Connie B ‘s character strikes me as someone who probably clawed her way up from a lower-middle-class background. So, she’s fucking tired and dealt with a lot of shit along the way. Doesn’t mean she’s entitled to check out… but it does explain it.

Mare of Easttown, Hacks and now White Lotus have provided some of the best discussion on DL this year. BRAVO HBO!

However, late as I am to the party, I'm just now finally watching Big Little Lies. WTF? Just awful. These are entitled twats (unlike Mike White's) who I can't believe in at all. And I really can't bear Nicole KIdman and her wigs.

This must have been reviled here on DL. Wish I could find the threads....the search engine has been no help.

I can't wait for this to be over so I can stream the whole thing. I'm loving this mini-series but I'm pissed when each episode ends...I want it to go on forever.

So there's something off in the writing- Hollywood writers can't write rich. So Jake lacy saw visceral gay sex? His isn't going to tell a soul - a rich hetero white bro wouldn't walk away smirking and laughing from that scene. He would leave the resort and never return- he can't tell his mom what he saw. He can't tell some random manager, "I saw ass eating". He wouldn't think he'd bested Armond.

He'd be destroyed.

[Quote]He'd be destroyed

MARY!

I think he can survive seeing two guy hooking up. And when you already trying to get someone fired, seeing them fucking one of their employees in their office is nice ammunition to use.

I know this may sound weird, but with lockdown and no travel for almost two years a new show with such an exotic location feels incredibly great.

I do not think Quinn is gay. He seems incredibly lost (just look at his parents) and, without his electronic gadgets, is taken by the ocean and the local rowers' group dynamic. Which makes me think that part of Quinn's storyline is about finding a place for himself and maybe even find his peers. Though, his "you will regret this!" when nobody in his family is willing to give him their phone is rather ominous.

The most interesting thing is that all these characters are either awful or pathetic, and yet on some level viewers can relate to them and some of their struggles. Like Tanya's difficult relationship with her mother and dealing with her mother's death. Or Shane being pissed for getting screwed over by Armond with the hotelroom. I mean, we don't like the characters, but understand where some of their anger and frustration is coming from.

The thing with Rachel and Shane is that it's difficult to understand what exactly drew them to each other? Shane makes a point of insisting that he can be romantic (and then asks Armond to come up with something romantic which - as we know - goes horribly wrong) which implies that Rachel has not seen that side of him when they were still dating. On one hand, Rachel being concerned that Shane is only interested in her sexually and will drop her as soon she's loosing her looks seems quite valid given Shane's overall character, but her low self-esteem issues make it easy for Shane to push her concerns aside, for now. I love that flippant off-hand remark that Rachel's mother would never just show up at their honeymoon since she doesn't have the money for a ticket. Of course, she's angry about the comment.

My prediction? Rachel is either going to patch things up with Nicole, and she offers her a position at Google and Rachel leaves with the family instead of Shane, or Rachel is making a 180 and kisses up to her mother-in-law, and they leave Shane, not liking his wife no longer being the easy pushover, behind. Either way Shane is being humiliated by Rachel.

Anybody else appreciate seeing Jake/Shane's bare feets this episode?

r139 and why did Jennifer Coolidge's character say he had a khaki face??

I don’t buy Rachel’s lost little waif act.

I knew so many girls like her growing up. Pretend to want a career, but manage to marry the first rich asshole that crosses their path and become a stay at home frau.

Sure, it’s boring and not a life I’d want. But Rachel’s “oh, poor me, help me, feel sorry for me” routine is getting old.

The score reminds me of an album which was recorded in the 80s in Hawaii by a British band called The Creatures (Siouxsie Sioux & Budgie who are better know being members of the group Siouxsie & The Banshees).

R181, because he’s a clean-cut white blond guy.

I absolutely hate her character.

Intrigued by comments here, I watched “Beatriz At Dinner”, written by Mike White. Similar themes, and I keep thinking about it. I’m trying to find more of his work. As I mentioned much earlier, “Chuck and Buck” was unbearably uncomfortable to watch, but it was very good. I’m a fan, now.

Fuck these people especially Shane, I stayed at an Outrigger and liked it. :)

R182, agree.

I think Nicole really blew up at Rachel because her whole “orbit” point hit home for Nicole. Nicole is the one who swallowed up her husband and “emasculated” him. And that’s why she isn’t attracted to him (among other reasons). She didn’t want to face the fact that men don’t want their wives to be more successful than they are.

In Ep4, everyone became a much more extreme version of themselves.

Shane became much more dickish Rachel became more whiny and annoying Murray became much more sexual Tanya became much more ditsy and flighty

ETC

I wonder what it means?

For the people concerned with the staff wearing multiple hats:

I worked in a five star hotel in a big city and I've worked in an island resort hotel (not five star, but very nice). In both jobs, I was a waiter/bartender.

In the five star hotel? No way would you do any job you weren't specifically trained for. Never happened.

At the resort? Everyone had their main job and then helped out whenever needed, wherever needed. It was much more familial and casual.

So it's sorta/kinda believable that staff at this five star island resort hotel might wear a few hats.

That said, in both instances the GM (Murray) would absolutely wear any hat needed. Their job is to supervise the entire hotel and if that means run food? They run food. Or bellhop? They bellhop. Host? They host.

R188 did you ever get your ass eaten out in the hotel manager's office?

R181, I remember hearing Tanya say, "khaki face" but I heard "tacky face" and wondered what it meant. I've never heard either expression but would assume it means bland.

Still, the twink she points out as "khaki face" is probably the hottest twink on the show at the moment. Shame he doesn't have more screen time.

It's "ate out," R189

R186, I read that scene as Nicole being angry that she never had a rich guy to fall back on.

The airheaded Rachels of the world get the cushy lives with rich men.

Nicole’s done all the heavy lifting for the whole family her whole life. Her moron husband couldn’t even be faithful.

Would she have been happy as some rich housewife? Probably not. But it would be nice to have some form of support.

That segment of the local staff dancing for the entertainment of the guests and the entitled guests engaged in their first world problem conversations was very poignant.

Yes, that scene was the new “Ladies, please! Have some perspective! I can’t leave here and go to Le Chateau!”

[quote] But it would be nice to have some form of support.

The thing is though that Nicole wants her idea of support on her terms. Life experience (climbing the corporate ladder?) made her a controlling bitch and her family pays the price while living in a gilded cage that's being rearranged by Nicole every so often.

Nicole is nicer to her kids than I would be, that daughter should have gotten a vicious slap years ago.

Eh, her husband can get off his ass any time. Doesn’t seem like he wants to.,

Nicole's daughter would have been sent to a boarding school in Mexico if she was my daughter.

OMG I miss Celia so much.

I hope Quinn gets revenge on his sister and her friend and doesn't get in trouble for it.

So do I, R199. Weeds wasn't the same after she was written out. :(

When Jennifer Coolidge said 'mother...mother...mother' it reminded me of Jim Jones who said that when trying to get them to drink the poisoned Flavor Aid

[quote]He can't tell some random manager, "I saw ass eating". ..... He'd be destroyed.

R178 beat me to it. MARY! indeed. I don't think 177 has the first clue how rich, straight dudebros think, and yet he thinks the writing is off because Shane would have been *destroyed* in that scene?? Lawdy. Mike White has been doing this for years and is quite successful at it, I think he may have come across some rich people during that time, but please, do tell us, R177, how the scene should have been written. We're all waiting here with bated breath to hear your brilliance.

What I find interesting in reading these comments in regards to the characters is I can absolutely tell who on this thread I would never ever want to know in real life because their comments illuminate just how fucking abysmal they are as people. Like the DLers hating on Rachel - I am imagining these are the same posters who start a thread every other day about women not liking sex under the guise of "curiosity" for the sole purpose of expressing their deep misogyny and extreme jealousy at women getting dick they'll never have. It's rather transparent.

The characters are designed to get a strong reaction from the audience, but how you react to them says more about you than anything else.

me too, r202.

R189, no but I had sex with countless "straight" guys when I tended bar at the beach resort. I was 24 and hot as fuck.

Those horned up daddy types just ate me up. Ass and all.

The best indicator of how well written this series is is how many different aspects of the show different people are focused on and intrigued by.

Some are preoccupied with the gay sex scene, some with the teen boy's motivations, some with the scheming college girls, some with the reactions of the rich guy, etc. It's a real ensemble with no lead characters or A-storyline, and the characters are complicated enough that each one is intriguing.

To the argument that a "rich dudebro would be freaked out by gay sex," I find that interesting because you're assuming this character would behave more according to a stereotype of a kind of person than according to the individual type who has been clearly established. He has a one-track mind. Everything we have seen on him has been fixated on getting the upper hand and beating down the lowly hotel manager into a submissive and apologetic position, and so it's totally in keeping with his character that he would blackmail or humiliate the guy. He was already trying to get him fired and that attempt was subverted when he was given a wrong phone number for his boss, so this puts him on track for sweet revenge.

I love all these storylines and character interactions.

And it is true that everyone is repugnant and also relatable.

I am still hung up on the ironic (hypocritical?) nature of the story, though. And again, that's a complication that is a pro in the sense of the depth it lends even while it's a con in the sense of the narrative being hypocritical to the theme of the show.

If the series had to be summed up, the characters' plotlines would take a backseat to the theme: a black comedy about wealthy white people creating their own misery in a luxurious Hawaiian resort while local hotel workers struggle to get by.

While there's so much great satire that makes us judge and dislike the rich guests, they are the ones who are most fully human characters and therefore to whom we relate the most. The writers so far have shown us only sketches of most of the hotel workers, who are mere character types and not as fully human, which means that even as the writers are judging the 'white privilege' of the characters, they are privileging the white characters by giving them all the focus and showing the others as mere worker drones.

The only other exceptions are the hotel manager, who is white, and the spa lady, who still is much more of a sketch than any of the main characters: all we know of her is that she works hard, has an inferiority complex and she has a son who we don't see. The pregnant worker was one of the first characters we saw, and yet all she amounted to was a desperate worker who was shuffled offscreen quickly. The luau dancer/waiter is there to be a reference point for Paula; he has had very little screen time.

So the whole sensibility of the series feels like a colonial mindset. It's about 'wokeness,' but it ironically marginalizes the lower class minority people. It's still a good show but that hypocrisy makes me feel a little icky and I would really love for that dynamic to be inverted by the end, building out the characters who've been marginalized and leaving the focus on their lives instead.

Does R177 not realize that straight men eat ass, too?

R177 This isn’t the 50s.

Every straight white male I've known would absolutely walk away laughing hysterically if they caught an adversary having gay sex. There's nothing in their minds more compromising and degrading. I've known a lot of Armand types. Messy middle age gay men self-destructing when they should be peaking. I guess Mike White knows them too.

[quote] So Jake lacy saw visceral gay sex?

visceral • VISS-uh-rul • adjective. 1 : felt in or as if in the internal organs of the body : deep 2 : not intellectual : instinctive, unreasoning 3 : dealing with crude or elemental emotions : earthy 4 : of, relating to, or located on or among the internal organs of the body : splanchnic.

Ew.

I worked at a small ultra expensive resort in the Dominican. We all wore multiple hats, 12 hour days, 7 days a week when the resort was rented and plenty of time off during the vacant times.

The Rachel hate here perplexes me a little; is it not OK to be lost? She seems lost and not gold-diggery to me.

Love how each episode shows us more about the characters.

R212 Why are you surprised? DL just hates women.

Shane's outfit in the last scene was gayer than Murray chowing down on the hippie's ass.

That fake dildo dick in Episode one was laughable. It is like they don't even try to make the fake look real.

Why do people say “The Dominican?” It’s “The Dominican Republic.”

Fuck, people are already writing dissertations about this show.

Haha

I still can't get over that in the year 2021 r178 thinks a 30 something straight guy from NY would practically faunt upon seeing the horrors of gay sex.

As to whether a homicide is involved, this reviewer, who's arguably seen all the episodes, refers to this ostensibly being a "murder" mystery.

r166

I wondered what he did for a living as well but I took Steve's look of horror not from the son bringing up the affair but rather the price as I was thinking he really didn't spend 75,000(the son brought up the price a lot) and that may come out when the theft occurs and the bracelets aren't worth that much

[quote] and that may come out when the theft occurs and the bracelets aren't worth that much.

It would surprise me if a control freak with trust issues like Nicole not had the bracelets appraised on the downlow. Either she knows what their real price is, or she sold the real thing and made some fake ones to cover up the fact that she's broke or earns a lot less than everybody assumes (which would shine a totally new light on her defending male privilege all the time, and she's a total pushover in the corporate world).

Women like Nicole who do everything for their families secretly believe in male supremacy. She’s still willingly subjugating herself to her idiot husband by taking care of him (and everything else) as if he’s a child.

That reviewer also refers to Mike White as "Ben White", and also writes that Nicole runs a "GOOP-style" website. lol

The problem with Rachel is Daddario can’t really do vulnerability. So, the character doesn’t read as “lost”— just whiny and humorless.

Note that she herself doesn’t show much empathy when interacting with Zahn’s character. Just sort of prim judgment. So we’re supposed to listen to her whine constantly, but be ok with her judging Zahn. Those things don’t really go together.

Plus, she’s whining about being bad at her job… but whose fault is that? I don’t really get it. And these sad sacks always end up married to rich guys who no doubt enjoy feeling superior to their hapless mates. Seems dysfunctional on both sides.

The beautiful choir music in the last episode was by the Rose Ensemble. Their CD of Hawaiian music is gorgeous.

R225 - I know plenty of people who whine about their lives, but have no interest in other people’s lives. And I’d expect her to sort of sit in prim judgment of Mark because he was drunk, and he was saying inappropriate things. As far as the jib thing, that seems stereotypical Millenial, expecting a medal for shitty work. I encounter them all the time in my current work - they don’t know what to do with even the slightest criticism of their work.

Yes, r227. But none of that adds up to Rachel being “lost,” as another poster called her. It adds up to her being lazy and entitled.

In some part of her lizard brain, she’s calculating enough to get married to a man who— as odious as he is— will allow her to continue to be lazy and entitled.

Incredibly, she still expects people to feel sorry for her. I find this really unsympathetic. And she’s not “lost” at all. She wants it all, without working.

Who catches them during the rimming scene?

The opening credits show the intention of the show. Pretty from afar, rotten and sinister when you get closer. The characters aren't supposed to be likable or have redeeming qualities, for the most part (jury is still out on Quinn though, if he can overcome his addiction to his gadgets).

[quote] Incredibly, she still expects people to feel sorry for her.

It's about entitlement. She expects others to respect her and respect her struggle while not being able to respect other and their struggle.

Pretty much every character has entitlement issues. And it's the perfect venue. Guest expecting to be treated like VIPs and their entitlements being humored by the staff with Armond no longer being able to do so.

That scene with Rachel and Mark is the updated version of “Lost in Translation.”

The whole recignizing-a-fellow-lost-soul theme doesn’t really translate (pardon the play on words) to Millennials.

They are much more likely to say “eeeeew!” and flounce out upon encountering a fellow lost soul.

After she herself spewed inappropriately to Nicole.

Just because they're reading Gogol, Nietsche, Freud, or even Gladwell, doesn't mean they understand it.

I’m confused, were they telling the truth about a stylist picking out the books to go with the outfits or not?

"I’m confused, were they telling the truth about a stylist picking out the books to go with the outfits or not?"

No, they were being snarky

R233 Are you having a stroke?

Why is everyone calling the dad an idiot? He's a bit goofy, but an idiot?

R225 Why would she have empathy with Zahn's character when he was being an inappropriate creep? She showed interest in the begging, asking him about the honeymoon, about how they keep the spark alive etc. but she started rolling her eyes and got the hell away from there like any normal person would, once he became a weirdo and a perv.

Will Paula tell he new bf that works at the resort about the 75K bracelets and he or one of his brothers will be the one that will try to still them?

This is Benidorm for the rich and artsy.

I wish Murray had been rimming Jake instead.

R240 Why? That dude is ugly as hell

Based on Absolutely Nothing At All, maybe it's Quinn who steals the bracelets ("you will regret this!") so he can a) either buy a new phone, b) put out a hit on his horrible sister or c) run away and join an outrigger crew.

R 236 The father really is an idiot, my most hated character by far. His reaction to his father’s homosexuality was totally out of place, he was reacting to it from his inner homophobia. He never worried about his mom or what living that double life meant to his dad.

He really is the example of white, male, heterosexual privilege that Paula and Olivia are trying to expose. According to him on this day is more difficult to be a men because you can harass women, among other things.

He said he was “the good guy” when he publicly spoke against sexism or racism, like it’s not a thing than any normal human should feel, more like a favor he did, and he was happy being in that position where he has the chance of feeling like the good guy when feeling pity about minorities. Don’t you see how fucked up that is?

Both him and the wife’s feelings and opinions about society and their discontent about things getting better for more people other than them makes them both deplorable Democrats. And yes, that is a thing, but you probably didn’t notice because you are obviously one of them like most of DL.

You don’t need to be Trump to be out of date, there are other shades of white privilege and entitlement, and White is exposing them so elegantly. I love Oliva and Paula’s comeback at their parents, bitches know how to expose them as what they really are, other that what they think they are. At least Trump knows he is evil, those parents think they have saved the world.

^can’t harass*

The thief is definitely going to be Jennifer Coolidge's new fuckboy. He's casing the hotel for marks.

R243 Being a homophobe doesn't make one an idiot.

Also, Paula and Olivia are bullies. Typical Gen Z social warriors. I would rather be friend with an "old fart" like Zahn's character who is real and tries to understand others than the "liberal" and "open minded girls" like his daughter and her friend.

R246 Well if you are gay, you know what to expect when hanging with him. Maybe you could answer if it feels good to be fucked up in the ass.

Paula and Olivia ARE bullies. If Olivia is so “woke,” why doesn’t she chuck it all and go work with the Peace Corp?

Why Is she vacationing with her family if she finds them so offensive?

She’s 19/20 years old. She should be establishing her own life, not hanging out with her parents. Especially if she thinks they are so problematic.

I thought it was weird that Olivia was reading a Camille Paglia book.

OK this is weird, I work in libraries and that cover for Paglia did not look familiar results or like American publishing design. It turns out that she’s holding a Spanish language edition of the book. Of course one of the reasons they probably used it is that Camille’s name is writ large on the cover.

Olivia seems like the most reprehensible character so far. All the others have plenty of flaws, but she is deliberately evil in her behavior. She keeps Paula close and acts as a friend, mimics the liberal beliefs of Paula, but then wants to deliberately emotionally injure her by stealing the men she dates, which she has already done.

All the other characters seems more unaware of their behavior but she knows exactly what she's doing. The only one that comes close would be Armond as he is deliberately trying to sabotage Shane, but it's not on the same level. He's not trying to act like he's a trustworthy friend to Shane.

Does this make Olivia a narcissist?

The edition is also from 2020 so recent. I could almost buy Paula reading it, since they have kept her ethnicity vague, she should speak Spanish, but Olivia is the one with it. Also, it’s a very think book, but the Spanish versions seems trimmer for some reason.

Bless your heart R233.

According to this WSJ article, White based the girl’s reading on James Franco’s behavior on the set of Freaks and Geeks, which he was writing for at the time.

This show is the best performance of Alexandra Daddario's career, even though she's still not a great actress.

Wow, he based that on James Franco?

What straight male would leave Paula for Olivia? Seriously.

well... if they thought they could mooch off her money they might go for Olivia.

[quote]The father really is an idiot, my most hated character by far. His reaction to his father’s homosexuality was totally out of place, he was reacting to it from his inner homophobia. He never worried about his mom or what living that double life meant to his dad.

I think the father is allowed to have a bit of a freakout over the news of his father's sexuality. I didn't see it as much homophobia, as it was simply ignorance. He knows nothing about gay men. Mark tells his son that his father was a real alpha male, and "always really tough on me". So the father was a bit of a type that did not suggest gay or even bi to the son, he can't fathom that alpha as anything other than what he built in his mind. To hear your father was completely different to who you thought he was - and it was obviously a relationship that Mark struggled with - would mean rethinking countless scenes of your youth and what they meant. And obviously, he sees that there is a "like father, like son" element in that he cheated on his wife just like his dad did. It would be a lot to process.

That he is even curious with Armond at least suggests that Mark is open minded.

Armond's rimming technique is being criticized!

Answering R598 from thread one about Lukas defending a Gay friend and having his face beaten and reconstructed. Check number 5 here.

R260 Well, Murray doesn’t come from a Land of Under, so some would expect his rimjob to be on point.

Unless they wanted him to literally put his tongue in Lukas' ass (fine by me), it's never going to look "right"

How many time do we see a sex scene where a guy is thrusting into a girl or bottom's navel or thigh?

I re-watched the scene (several times), and Bartlett was at a weird angle to actually be rimming anything unless he has the tongue of an anteater.

People really do love to… analyze this show.

We put the anal in analyze

I highly doubt he's a fan of Bad Brains (from the shirt he's wearing from R261). If he is, then he should know HR from Bad Brains is a notorious homophobe.

I hope Olivia is in the casket, but it probably won't be. The trailer showed Zahn's character tackling the thief for a split second. The thief looked a bit darker and heavier than Tanya's boyfriend.

Olivia is horrible without a doubt but Sydney Sweeney looked incredible in that floral cut-out bathing suit. Damn. Her tits are amazing. I can't believe I just noticed.

I feel like this is a GenX vs GenZ passion play Mike White wrote just for me.

Who’s with me?!

People criticizing the rim job must not watch much kissing on screen, usually they are kissing under or over the mouth instead of on it.

Well R271.... I want to see Bartlett kiss Gage on the butthole. Not above it, or below it, or to the side of it. Just smooch that tight pink hole.

R257 He didn't leave Paula for Olivia. They were just talking. Not even flirting

R267 You can be gay or gay friendly and like Bad Brains.

R273 I think he meant it has a hypothetical. Like Olivia is starting to make a move on him in the show but if it was real, the dude would stick with Paula bc she's hotter.

What does Paula get out of the friendship with Olivia? She clearly detests the entire family, including Olivia (who, apparently, stole Paula's boyfriend just because she could - I don't mean the resort staff member). I mean, if I would get an invitation to spend a week or two at a resort with the Trump family as Tiffany's plus one, I would decline. No way would I be able to enjoy my holiday when it means I have to spend significant time with the Trump family.

Olivia could get the guy, because - unlike Paula - she's rich.

R276 All of the guests are terrible self-involved people. Just because Paula is a person of color, I don't think that that is necessarily supposed to signal she's a better person than everyone else. She acts just like Olivia to the family, totally disrespectful and condescending, and she has acted that way toward Rachel, the hotel guy and others. She takes a ton of drugs and has an illness to excuse every character flaw.

So I read her motivation as being to emulate her rich friend even while knowing her friend exploits her and preys on her romantic interests. I think Olivia is basically her role model or the rich, awful person who she aspires to be on some level, although part of her is gravitating to a more 'real' person, the Hawaiian guy. I think Paula, being apparently biracial or multiracial, represents a bridge between the haves and have nots and maybe the potential for anyone to become corrupt through socioeconomic opportunity.

Also, it seems to be assumed that Paula is similarly wealthy, but have we seen any evidence that she is? She had the opportunity to tag along to Hawaii with her rich friend's family. Who would say no? If she were very wealthy, she probably would have made some rude comment about the family sharing a suite and not even having her own sleeping room.

Unless we're shown otherwise, I get the vibe that Paula herself is an opportunist who has attached herself to a rich bitch for the money-related benefits and opportunities, and she has accepted the risks and penalties that come with the deal. I knew people in college who had relationships like this: one person came from money and would patronizingly 'adopt' a friend of lesser means and treat them to luxuries while 'educating' them on upper society, but the relationship power dynamic was off and the rich person had the upper hand, was patronizing to the poorer person and often abused them—as Olivia preys on Paula's love interests—while using them for access to drugs and feeling like being friends with those sorts of connections gives them street cred.

I think Paula may aspire to be like Olivia and accepting abuses and feigning a nonchalant attitude to fit in, hoping that she may have the opportunity to live this way herself if she plays her cards right. That would certainly be a fitting dynamic for a show that is a metaphor for colonization.

Paula is also a terrible person. Bullying that special needs kid brother of her bff.

I agree that Paula is a horrible person, but she puts herself in that position of being around awful people. So yeah, she probably wants to be like them. And yet, looks to ground whenever she thanks the parents for bringing her along.

[quote]Also, it seems to be assumed that Paula is similarly wealthy

Funny, I've seen more people assume she is not. But it was her comment to Kai that really made me think that Paula is as superficial as her bff. Kai is so "real", she says, so to me that suggests she is not faced with people having daily struggles like compromising their ethics and integrity for a job, or people who inhabit a culture filled with tradition. She seems to be totally removed from all that. And then there's all of her illnesses.

Someone is suggesting on the reddit thread that the missing Klonopin which is now in Armond's possession will come into play and that Paula might have a psychotic episode from withdrawal. It makes one wonder what her seizures are all about. I still can't get over the way she fell so dramatically from simply pushing a bed back into the sofa. And she had two people helping her.

Who are your predicted Emmy nominees?

To me Jennifer Coolidge is sure, maybe Sydney Sweeney? They both would go to supporting, so the votes would split and any of them will have it.

From the guys part, definitely Murray Bartlett is getting the nod and I hope the winning.

R281 I assume she has all the drugs for recreational use and that her supplying is a major aspect of her relationship with Olivia.

I really hope that the Reddit theory does not pan out because that would be really poor writing. Klonopin is not an antipsychotic. It's not used to treat psychotic disorders. It can be used to treat mania or hypomania just by sedating a person, but not psychosis. It's used for anxiety, panic disorders and sleeplessness. It's a long-acting sedative.

Now, if she is addicted to Klonopin then withdrawal could potentially cause seizures. It is sometimes used to treat epileptic seizures, as well, and sudden discontinuation could exacerbate epilepsy symptoms.

R282 Connie Britton is as close as the show has to a lead and critics love her. Best actress nomination, and of course she will lose to Kate Winslet.

Jennifer Coolidgeis more likely to get best supporting, and I think the horel manager will get best actor or best supporting actor.

Sweeney is a tossup. I don't know if her character has the gravitas, but she is wicked, so maybe.

The show is about racial and class dynamics and so I think there will be backlash if at least one person of color is not nominated. I would guess the actress who plays the masseuse.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the son gets a best supporting nomination and if the asshole husband (newlywed) gets a best actor nomination. His character is very much like the characters from Succession and it does well with awards.

(I have a really hard time remembering the characters' names. I think it may be because they are all so emotionally distant.)

I think it'll win best direction and I worry Mare will win best drama; I think this The White Lotus deserves that award. Mare had incredible acting but the story itself became extremely pulpy, like a page-turning bestselling murder mystery with endless plot twists. All the viewer speculation for that show was about who did it and what twists might be coming next, whereas The White Lotus has spun off all these debates about the characters' motivations and about social themes. That's much better and more sophisticated writing.

I haven't seen the title discussed. What's everyone's take on it?

I feel like our cultural association with lotus is generally "exotic" and especially eastern cultures and for some ancient Egyptian. There's a mystique and a lushness and a beauty about lotus flowers, and there's also an intoxicating association with blue lotus.

Very interesting that this lotus is white. To me, it seems like an obvious implication of the overarching theme of white people overtaking a lush paradise with an ancient culture and thereby sort of perverting or at least corrupting it. The opening credits suggest that. The Hawaiian-influenced music that is distorted and reshaped into white genres also supports the idea.

[quote]I would guess the actress who plays the masseuse.

Natasha Rothwell is so talented. She beautifully plays warm and nurturing here, with an undercurrent of resentment, yet she's hilariously shallow and self absorbed on Insecure (which she also writes and produces).

[quote] It's used for anxiety, panic disorders

Actually, I do recall Paula saying she needs it for her panic attacks.

R284 Cool your Mare jets, it is all nominated for the upcoming Emmy Awards show, this would fall into next year’s potential nominees, that is if anyone in Hollywood will be able to remember back that far next year.

R288 Oh bummer, yeah, everyone will have at best vague memories of the show next year.

I was starving for something like this. I loved Hacks and The Flight Attendant and aspects of Mare, but The White Lotus is what I expect from HBO at its best. All the other series honestly could have come from Hulu or Amazon. They don't *quite* have the sophisticated sensibility of this series, which I think belongs on playlists with Six Feet Under, The Sopranos, et al.

Natasha Rothwell played the loud-mouthed friend on Insecure. She was one of a handful of actors who stole each episode away from Issa Rae.

I've never seen insecure but that makes me want to watch it now. I do love the actress in this role. I want to give her a hug. She's stuck in a no-win subservient situation and she is extremely emotionally intelligent and knows how to navigate it. Her son was all about taking the opportunity and saying fuck off to the day job and she is measured and knows to proceed with caution. She gets across a great deal of depth in this role. Now I've just talked myself into expecting an Emmy nomination for her. Her role is less flashy than all the white ones but she does a lot with it.

R285 The lotus has a long symbolic meaning of purity, regeneration, enlightenment, rebirth and is something beautiful that becomes, despite the muddy, dirty quagmire below. Really the only one who is anywhere near that happening to is Quinn, the son. Perhaps he will be a sacrifice for the sins of the others?

R284 Why do you think she is wicked? Or a tossup?

I love the series but I think the finale and wrapping up of all these characters' story lines will be crucial to its critical success. There are so many ways it can all go and I hope they've made the right decisions. That coffin in the premiere set up a lot of expectations.

For my money Mare got it all right in the end and made the entire viewing experience worth it.

R293 Why is she wicked? Let me count the ways:

—Treats her brother like shit, makes him sleep on the kitchen floor and the beach, constantly tells her parents he is a jerkoff addict.

—Treats her parents like shit.

—Treats strangers like shit. Was a total bitch to Rachel for no reason (although showed envy/interest/sudden respect when she realized Rachel is sexy). Was a total bitch to Tanya for no reason. Has been consistently Karen-esque to the hotel manager, treating him as a lowly servant.

—Has one friend who she manipulates and whose love interests she preys on.

—All this with a fake woke persona makes her especially wicked.

And why is the actress a tossup for an Emmy? I guess because she is young and potentially up against seasoned, respected actresses, and her role is a well-written character but not one of great consequence. Emmy noms for dramas tend to go to tragic characters, addicted characters, prostitutes, abused women, etc. If the show submits itself as a comedy, then she may have a better chance. But there's a lot of competition this year. Imagine her getting a nomination along Kate Winslet, Jean Smart or her Hacks costar, Connie Britton, Kaley Cuoco, the woman from Succession.

When this is all over, which will happen sooner then later, this looks to be a perfect follow up. Big dicked Bobby, overly tanned Luke, hopefully a more dramatic Melissa and less comedic one and a fake assed accented Nicole, which I’m calling now is on purpose, because she’s not foreign (European) in the way she pretends to be and gets exposed.

Nicole Kidman never takes a break!

Doesn't the title refer to the Lotus Eaters?

Obviously it's called The White Lotus after its creator Mike White -- he probably calls his butthole the Lotus

Nicole Kidman has become the Lois Nettleton of contemporary made for TV movies.

R297 Nicole is broken, from having lost the first set of kids to Scientology.

Search reveals Daddario reports to be 5'8" and Lacy 6'2". In several scenes they actually look to be about the same height. Yes, heels - but maybe also some profile padding.

What are some recent series that are as good as Mare and White Lotus?

Just signed up at Hulu....how is Sharp Objects? Big Little Lies? What else?

Mare is a plotty whodunit murder mystery with very good acting.

White Lotus is a satire/social commentary with an utterly unique point of view and style. It's much harder to think of another recent show this good, IMO.

On Hulu, Mrs. America was an interesting historical(ish) lesson, The Great is a really fun take on Cathering the Great. The first season of The Handmaid's Tale is a lot like the book and very good, but upsettingly dark, and I abandoned season two during the first episode because it was actual torture porn. So I won't go back to that.

Lots of good old shows on Hulu. I rewatched Desperate Housewives and was amazed how brilliant the first season was. A++ network TV. I also watched Mary Tyler Moore and 30 Rock for the first time and loved them. And I rewatched Just Shoot Me, which is so politically incorrect today it was a great relief, and it's a lot funnier than I remembered.

Hulu also has some movies I love, including Melancholia, Wild Things, Parasite, Much Ado About Nothing (Branagh, Thompson, Beckinsale), Romeo + Juliet (Baz Luhrman).

R304 You 'love' Melancholia? I thought it was a good movie but I would never watch it again...too fucking depressing. Your choices interest me.

Melancholia is a movie loved by depressives. For the rest of us, it's a bit of a slog.

R305 I love it. I saw it during a bleak time in my life because I was so seriously and mysteriously ill and watching the movie gave me solace. I felt a lot like the Justine character in a lot of ways.

I consider it among my favorite movies, along with Mulholland Drive, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Eyes Wide Shut, Clueless, The Talented Mr. Ripley, Gosford Park, Pan's Labyrinth, Shakespeare in Love, Metropolis, Bringing Up Baby, His Girl Friday, Beautiful Thing, Wait Until Dark, Embrace of the Serpent...those are the ones that come to mind right now.

[quote]I love it. I saw it during a bleak time in my life

Like I said.

R308 Not sure what you're trying to prove. The movie is called Melancholia. It's depressing movie made by a catatonically depressed director about the bliss of Earth being destroyed by a rogue planet. You don't have to prove that it's a movie geared toward depressed people. It really could not possibly be more self-explanatory.

I also love Melancholia, R307. Seeing it in the cinema made a difference. I sat stunned by that ending for about ten minutes. Its also a gorgeous film. Seeing Justine's utter calm at the end during a time of fear and uncertainty felt kind of freeing. I've thought of that moment often in the last year or so.

Back to White Lotus - I have been listening to the score on Spotify all day and I love it. But there is a track at the end that I think might be a bit of a spoiler. I have a feeling the ending of this series is going to make me sob deeply, isn't it?

R310 Justine came alive and was joyful when everyone else broke down. That was one of the things I could relate to. I'm anxious most of the time, pnic sometimes, but in any major crisis, I am always level headed and rational. I think the constant anxiety sort of prepares anxious people for crises that others can't handle.

Anyway. If the end of this series makes me cry, I will be stunned and really impressed. I love it but it seems like a dark satire and I don't know what they'd do to get tears out of me.

R303 Just finished season one of Big Little Lies. It's quite good.

I think when it comes down to it Sydney Sweeney is going to be the break out star from this. She’s channeling lots of old Hollywood glamour here and the dress is fantastic.

R312 Skip season 2

Is the older guy closeted?

Yeah so closeted he admitted being gay to Steve Zahn in a crowded restaurant :P

Some people just don't wear pride shirts every day

Not all of us have seen the show rainbow bunny.

R315 He is the hotel manager. The series takes place during one week and he is working, and so his sexuality never came up until one of the guests said, "You're gay, right? It must feel OK getting fucked up the ass or else no one would keep doing it?"

And he said, "Want to find out?"

The horrible guests drove him to drug abuse and that drove him to proposition a young guy who works for him.

Did you know Penelope Cruz refused to be the main character in Melancholia to play Pirates of the Caribbean whatever?

IMO Kirsten is a much better choice. I hope she gets the Oscar this year for “The power of the dog”.

R319 The movie hasn't even been released yet therefore you haven't seen it and her acting but you are hoping she gets an Oscar? Alrighty then..

Anyone have sex to the intro theme music yet?

r319, ooh, that looks good! KiKi Dunst, and Mr. Dunst, Jesse Plemmons, AND Frances Conroy? Jane Campion!

I do hate Cumbersnatch, tho.

R320 So what? People here are claiming that that Gaga bitch is going to win because of the Gucci film. I’m certain that Kirsten is going to be better because she is a real actress.

R319 I heard that.. P declining Melancholia for Pirates. Maybe she couldn’t schedule both. If it was money then that’s in poor taste. I doubt it was fear of the material. Weirdly Eva Green turned down Antichrist. She just couldn’t take on the sexual content. You’d think a young actress like her at that point would have chosen to do it anyway. Anyway, Kirsten was an inspired choice and delivered and then some. Definitively presented herself as an actress of stature with that one.

R323 Well, people here are idiots. Including you

r303 Little Fires Everywhere on Hulu is good

R314 Season two has a good score on Rotten Tomatoes. Not as good as season one, but still...

Melancholia is a fantastic movie. And, um, of course it's depressing. It's called fucking Melancholia!

Dunst gives the best performance of the 2000s IMO.

Is this the movie about the Jinx guy played by the LaLa Land guy murders his first wife?

Dunst made me a big fan of hers with Melancholia. I had always ignored her because of what seemed like a generic background: former child actor, derided by 00s blogs, did those cheerleading movies. I read years ago that Marie Antoinette was "mindless fun with lots of pretty dresses" or something and just sort of assumed she is a vapid Lindsey Lohan type. I now seek out her work. The colonial thriller/horror movie with Nicole Kidman and Colin Farrell isn't a great movie but Dunst is excellent in it. She was remarkable in On Finding God In Central Florida. There are some actresses who elevate their material every time (Nicole Kidman, Cate Blanchett, Kate Winslet, Claire Danes) and she is one of them.

From what little of the video I could watch, I got the feeling of the pets cringing and hiding in the condo somewhere thing “Oh, hell! Here we go again!” Embarrassed by the humans they live with.

^^^Wring thread, ignore please….. but if there were pets at the rimming, they would be cringing and hiding.

[quote] On Finding God In Central Florida

On Becoming a God in Central Florida. She is also excellent in the 2nd season of the Fargo series. Wherein she met hubby.

[quote] —Lick my ass

On it!

You posters who think this is gonna launch Gage to superstar status are retards.

[quote]special needs kid brother

That made me laugh, R279.

Will the show address the son's strangely proportioned body? That giant head on those tiny shoulders? Will that become a plot point?

R335 Who said that, exactly?

Another gay character using drugs how original.

I adore Wide Loaders.

Well, Murray has nothing on Halston, that’s for sure.

Don’t forget preying on married men and guys half his age, R339.

R342 He didn't prey on a married man. The married man asked him if it feels good to be fucked up the ass and he asked the married man if he wants to find out. I say he had it coming.

He is preying on a young guy who works for him and trading sex for drugs, so that's pretty deplorable.

But hey. Progress is depicting the plights of marginalized people in entertainment. Equality is depicting them as flawed human beings.

I agree with R343. He wasn't preying on the married guy. The guy was asking him a question that could be interpreted as either a proposition at best or, if not, an incredibly intrusive and impolite question to be asking a hotel employee. So I think his response was proper in either case.

Aww, Armond was clean before those two nasty cunts left their pharmacy behind.

In love with this show and happy to see that a lot of people who I'd consider to be more "mainstream" are watching it and enjoying it. I only wish White's Enlightened would get some love by some of these people. Maybe it'll get rediscovered now that this show appears to be hitting with a lot of people. That was a brilliant show as well.

Hate me all you want, but I really like Rachel. I've been Rachel at one point in my life, so she really hits home with me. What others have said is true - you don't always know you've gotten attached to a narcissistic prick. They love bomb you for months until the facade slips and their real needs and wants become more apparent. I can see how she'd be drawn into her husband's web.

I hate Lars von Trier, though.

Lars von Trier is a true piece of shit.

Von Trier is an awful person but his movies can be sublime even if they are torturous.

I don't think I've ever seen a non-Von Trier movie or TV show that cast a bunch of actors who have different accents from different countries as a nuclear family, filmed it on a location that looks nothing like the setting, made the viewer feel horrible the whole way through and then left me thinking "that was insanely brilliant" by the end. Give a genius his due.

Uncle Rico/Marvin is grifting Jennifer Coolidge, right? A seemingly down-to-earth guy working for the BLM doesn't seem the type to spend 8K-ish per night on a room.

Where did you get 8K-ish per night for a room? It's a nice place, but the hotel is shown to be a little slipshod, the boat is crappy, etc. I don't get the impression all the rooms would be THAT much.

R310, I'm with you. If what I think will happen to who I think it will happen to, I will be very upset.

[quote] Uncle Rico/Marvin is grifting Jennifer Coolidge, right? A seemingly down-to-earth guy working for the BLM doesn't seem the type to spend 8K-ish per night on a room.

If he's a scam artist, why doesn't he play along with Tanya's assumption that he's a Black Lives Matter activist? That would've been an easy way to gain her trust.

Nothing is ever a miniseries anymore

Going by his films it's hard to tell if Von Trier hates women or gay men more.

R355 He hates himself most. Everything is about self-destruction and self-punishment.

R354

[quote]“It would have to be a different hotel, like, say, The White Lotus: San Tropez or something.”

Clever way of getting HBO to pay for your vacation. David Seltzer said that's the reason he set The Omen in London - because he wanted to visit England.

Of course they won't be getting any pandemic deals with any hotel in the future (hopefully) so that's going to work against them.

This low-rated show is TEARING US APART!!!!!!!!!!!

White Lotus could have fabulous future seasons with mostly new casts. Only the hotel employees Armond, Belinda and Dylan need to be worked into Season 2. Oh and perhaps that hot Hawaiian stud.

Because I love White Lotus I started watching Enlightened but after 5 episodes, it just isn't grabbing me. Maybe I'm just not a Laura Dern fan.

I did love Chuck and Buck years ago. I really should re-watch that soon.

[quote]Von Trier is an awful person but his movies can be sublime even if they are torturous.

Not sure how this turned into a Von Trier thread, lol, but Dogville was fucking brilliant.

I think Mike White's work is fantastic in the way that he targets people's tendency towards solipsism, and so people who are naturally solipsistic and narcissistic don't quite get the joke.

[quote]Nothing is ever a miniseries anymore

I hope this isn't extended to a second season. Let it have a short and beautiful life.

R362 No! We need more seasons to see Armond do some rimming in San Tropez or 69'ing in the Maldives.

R359 What about the woman who had the baby? All she wants is a job and even you are depriving her!

R361 Finally, another person who thinks Dogville is fantastic! Everyone I've known who's seen it thinks it's a fucked up mess. Easily Nicole Kidman's best ever performance, too. My favorite Von Trier might be Dancer in the Dark.

I don't think the show should be renewed, but I'm not going to complain if I get more Armond. He's my exact type.

R365 Vindictive, drug-fueled, sex addict is your type?

I want a Season 2 of new hotel guests!

R367 That would work!

[quote]I think Mike White's work is fantastic in the way that he targets people's tendency towards solipsism, and so people who are naturally solipsistic and narcissistic don't quite get the joke.

I saw Year of the Dog with a hippie dipshit friend who'd fit right in in a Mike White show for exactly these qualities -- example: she had just bought all this beautiful property in Puerto Rico and then had the nerve to pretend she was a local and went on about all of the white gentrifiers, lol -- but when we saw YOTD together we saw two completely different movies. I think that film is a tragedy about a woman who loses herself to her "cause" and loses touch with humanity -- my friend saw it as a happy ending, as Molly Shannon gave up on her life to be a hardcore animal activist, and didn't read any satire into it at all. White's SO GOOD at threading this needle -- the film really does read either way.

White is able to get such different interpretations from everyone. One person will love this character and hate the other and someone else will be the opposite. Some people see more of the humor and some see more of the drama.

The resort is supposed to be a Four Seasons type place on Maui. An all-inclusive place like that is usually 5-10K per night, depending on size and amenities. Uncle Rico definitely hasn't been there for a "deep sea fishing trip" with his buddies, not off Hawaii.

Finally caught up with the series (binged episodes 1-4) and then dove into this thread and the one before it.

Lots of great insights.

My takes:

• Every character is supposed to be a mix of good and evil, some more than others. So yes, it's like Succession in that there's no clear hero to root for, but the characters are more complex.

• Their bad impulses play off each other. To wit: Someone else might not have been that irked about the room thing, figured it was a mistake and would get sorted out, they were on their honeymoon and the room they were in was fine. But Jake is not like that, he feels he is somehow purposely targeted makes a big deal and then encounters Armond, who could have remedied things on the spot by giving them some sort of discount on the current room plus the boat for a night--somethin' somethin' --but instead decides to lie about it.

• I think we are supposed to think that Rachel was feeling overwhelmed by Jake and his attention. She was a hack journo--there's probably something in there about the notion that the people who can make it in journalism today are the ones whose parents will spot them money while they only take good assignments. But you get that she's only vaguely aware she's a hack and is drowning is student loans and debt and then along comes Jake who "love bombs" her (someone in the first thread noted this) and she's overwhelmed that someone feels that strongly about her and gives in, despite an inner voice urging caution because she gets that it will solve all her money issues. (In her conversation with the girls, you get the sense she was unsure why in fact she did marry Jake). You get the distinct sense they don't know each other very well, that it is mostly superficial and physical and him telling her he loves her and her at some level realizing "you don't know me well enough to love me." She also knows she has a smoking body and probably got hit on a lot by guys who just wanted to fuck her--Shane actually wanted to marry her, so there's that too.

• I too wish we knew what Zahn's character did for a living and how he and his wife met and what they both did for a living when they met. I did not find his reaction particularly homophobic--he was shocked that one of the foundational stories of his life was not true and that his father, who he looked up to, was leading a double life. At one point he says something to the effect that his father chose gay men over his family, so there's a sense that the father abandoned them too. It would be important to know what he did for a living to get a sense of his relationship. Is he a well respected veterinarian with a fulfilling career or does he hate his job and only works to be able to say he doesn't live off the wife.

• The hotel suite thing is weird. My parents used to do that when my brother and I were younger (pre-teenage years) because they wanted us nearby and we'd always be up early anyway. But once we got older we always got a suite with two bedrooms or, at the very least, a suite and an adjoining bedroom. I suspect the idea here was a forced "family vacation" even though they all want nothing to do with each other, but Mom herds them all down to breakfast together and worries about how much the buffet costs (likely $50-75/per person)

• I also did not get why Dillon went from being a straight guy who was seemingly quite wary of Armond to getting his ass eaten just because Armond had Ketamine. Especially because it seems that the script originally had Dillon getting full on fucked. We may find out more as the series unfolds but seemed completely out of character and more Datalounge-style wish fulfillment than anything else.

• Of course Jake would think it was funny--he's convinced he's got Armond cornered now. Winning this battle is his main goal

[1/2]

• Agree that things with Belinda will not work out as planned and I suspect the BLM guy will be the cause of it

• The "McQuod--one syllable!!" bit was very funny

• I knew so many girls at Dalton and Princeton who were like Olivia and Paula--somewhat attractive rich girls trying really hard to come off as sophisticated and witty but mostly coming off as insecure and cruel (e.g.,, the "snitches get stitches" like to Quinn) The whole being obvious that they were laughing at people and mocking them and not trying really hard to hide it, as in their conversation with Rachel They're both cunts, just spewing social justice lines they don't really believe (Olivia in particular) to get back at their parents.

• I got the Quinn was supposed to be in high school--he is most definitely younger than Olivia and not gay but just awkward. He stopped masturbating because he was blown away by nature --he had his head buried in a screen so much he never noticed how amazing it was. I would put him at 16.

• The guy who played Kai and the hotel staffer who found the bag are the two hottest guys on the show thus far.

• Molly Shannon's advice to Rachel was actually spot on. Working at a non-profit can really be a shit job. Though again, it seems very telling that Shane and Rachel never discussed money before they got married, that the topic just never came up.

[2/2]

I don't know where posters like r373 are getting the idea that Dillon was first presented as straight. I didn't think much was revealed about him at all. True, he didn't seem particularly into Armond initially but that didn't mean to me that he was straight (fool that he may be).

Yes Tanya, I said cuff me to the headboard.

R374. Fair point, but the awkwardness of the encounters between Dillon and Armond where Armond was hitting on him seemed designed to lead you to believe he was straight and it seemed Armond thought he was as well.

That said, even if DIllon was gay, bi or "fluid", the quick transition from "you're creeping me out Armond" to "sure, just give me some of that Ketamine and I'll gladly let you eat my ass" seemed pretty sudden.

I wonder if we will find out anything more about DIllon and his sexuality in the next two episodes

r376, Dillon had some reaction to the proposal that he could pick his own schedule. That might have convinced him to give in.

I thought Olivia and Paula were in high school until I watched a BTS video of Sydney Sweeney mentioning they their characters were in college.

It's mentioned several times in the dialogue, R378

Read through some recaps and other online comments this morning.

Seems to be something of a consensus on several points DLers have brought up too:

• It is odd that the Mossbachers only took a one bedroom suite, given their wealth and Mrs. M's tendency to micromanage everything.

• Shane and Rachel seem to barely know each other--so much of what they're fighting about and learning about each other should have come up previously, e.g., his personality around service people should have been evident by the second date.

• Shane was right to bring up the mistake about the room and it was odd, given the type of hotel it was and the fact that Shane's mother did indeed book the better and more expensive Pineapple Suite, that Armond did not immediately try and do all sorts of things to remedy the situation, but then Shane just took things to the next level.

• There was some initial suspicion that Olivia had a crush on Paula, suspicion that Paula knew Kai before meeting him at the resort, and that Quinn was gay.

• General confirmation that Paula and Olivia are 19 year old college sophomores and Quinn is a 16 year old high school student.

• General consensus that the Belinda-Tanya fund your business thing will end in tears (for Belinda)

Again, I’m not sure why people think a one-bedroom suite is odd, or why people are dwelling on it. I’m not sure too many resorts have suites with an endless number of bedrooms, and maybe suites with more bedrooms weren’t available? It really doesn’t matter.

[quote] Again, I’m not sure why people think a one-bedroom suite is odd, or why people are dwelling on it.

Because it is fucking odd! Especially, if you are allowing the daughter to bring a friend. To expect the daughter and her friend to sleep in the living room with your awkward high school son, that they seem to enjoy treating like shit, is just wrong for all of them. It creates conflict during what is supposed to be a relaxing vacation. Most sane people, especially with a stressful high profile job, would want as much peace as possible. If that is the way she manages her family it makes me wonder how she manages the company.

FWIW, the Four Seasons Maui, where the show was filmed, has a whole lot of 2 bedroom suites as do most resorts that cater to families.

I also don't see the big deal about Nicole opting for a one-bedroom suite, even though there may be two-bedroom suites available and she could afford one. She makes big bucks now but may have come from humbler roots so doesn't "waste" money if she doesn't have to. (She made a point of saying the breakfast buffet was expensive.). I know the type, And if you add that to her desire for the family to "bond" on vacation (and also to the writer's desire for the situation), it really doesn't seem that odd to me.

Now that I've seen both, I'd be here for a [italic]White Lotus/Hacks[/italic] crossover.

It's a plot device to keep the family members, with the daughter's BFF, uncomfortably close and to showcase how much of a control freak Nicole is and how it fucks up the holiday (which, duh!, was deliberately set up by the showrunner and creator to suck so bad).

It was set up to cause drama, obviously.

I have a weirdo friend who does the whole "my family all sleep in the same bed" thing -- just be glad this is not that

I'm actually quite excited about watching this tomorrow!

I'll take my laptop to bed and start downloading it as soon as I get up.

r380

What could Armond do though? He did mess up, maybe he tried to convince the german couple to move rooms(if he did, I forget) and they didn't want to. One of the couples would have to get the boot and Armond decided it was Shane because he was the bigger asshole

A million things R389

He could have immediately sent a bottle of expensive champagne to the room with some flowers or a fruit basket and an apology note. Followed it up with the offer of a free sunset cruise (for just two!) on the boat, as well as some sort of excursion just for the two of them (guided tour of a volcano) and then comped them for three of the six nights.

And that's just off the top of my head.

He and the hotel want to keep people like Shane happy so they'll rave to their friends about how great the place was which will be worth more than whatever the free dinners etc., cost.

Apparently, Armond did not attend a good Hotel and Restaurant Management School, or he’s a vindictive little cunt.

I think if you go back and watch that first scene between them you can see the moment when Armond decides to lie, and that it's just a flash decision because of how annoying Shane was being - I remember it being played pretty clearly - and then the digging in of heels began immediately , one mistake compounding the next

This series features the most ANNOYING soundtrack music on TV.

The music is as grating as the majority of characters. Only the traditional sounding Hawaiian music is OK. The vocalizing to mimic instruments is extremely awful.

Agree R392--that seems to be one of the main premises of the series--that the bad decisions/annoying habits of each character play off of each other and cause everything to escalate.

Quick recap on S5 - Quinn is becoming the only likeable character, I hope they don't kill him off.

Mossbacher reconciliation parallels the Shane/Rachel meltdown

Does BLM guy have some fatal illness?

Why didn't Paula text Kai from the boat?

Who was in the room with Armond and the underwear clad Dillon in the last scene from the "scenes from next week" preview

Oh the tension in this episode...

I was the one about to die from anxiety.

Also, who was the hot hairy chested young guy in the Scenes from Next Week taking his shirt off by Rachel?

BRILLIANT EPISODE!

I find I'm loving spending time in each story line, how rare is that in a multi-character series? This seemed to be the episode which asks the viewer to have some sympathy with most of the characters and I was there for them. I'm already depressed next week is the finale. I'll miss this show so much.

Jennifer Coolidge’s crying sounds like the fake crying little kids do to try to compel your attention.

I find both Tanya and Jennifer Coolidge as grotesques, and I don’t really understand that concept of self of that particular type of person. Self aware about it, but all in for the money carrying that persona forward.

[quote]Jennifer Coolidge’s crying sounds like the fake crying little kids do to try to compel your attention.

It did but at the same time was giving me such raw realness. I have people in my life who cry like that.

I'm the troller who back in thread 1 saw a lot of potential in this series while others were complaining how uncomfortable and cringey it was. How they couldn't bring themselves to watch another episode. I reminded them that this was exactly how they felt after the third episode of The Comeback, or halfway thru Enlightened, a few episodes into Fleabag.

So was I right? Is this show fucking amazing or what????

I'm devouring the new James Lapine book Putting It Together. And I'm no particular fan of SUNDAY IN THE PARK or Lapine.

But the book is so fresh and engaging in detailing the creation of a musical (or what it was like back then). Loads of very frank interviews with most of the actors and creatives of the original production.

oops. Meant that for the Theatre Gossip thread....

This series is basically just an R-rated soap opera and I'm fine with that.

Tanya says "The core of the onion, Belinda, is just a straight-up alcoholic lunatic!"

Oh c'mon, that is one of the all-time greatest lines ever!

Funny that someone is saying they don’t like the music is this series. I actually was thinking how great it is during this latest episode. It really adds to the experience.

The score is one of the best parts. I've been listening to it all week.

I love the theme song.

Frat boy types are what give me boners but Jake Lacy makes my skin crawl.

R410 Jake Lacy's character makes your skin crawl. Lacy is doing a phenomenal job.

I'm transfixed by Kekoa Scott Kekumano (Kai) and his luscious bubble butt.

No R411. I felt that way before. He’s physically repulsive. Not the character. The person.

R412 Could you imagine eating out Kai's tight ass?

*SPOILERS*

I felt bad for Nicole. Her family treats her like shit and expect her to do everything. Husband cheated on her. By the time she makes it back to the room she's bawling (and folding clothes 🤣), and then gets assaulted and terrorized. It touched my cold black heart when she grabbed Mark's hand later at the dinner table for saving her.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe Rachel is the dead one now after episode 5. Like it seems SO obvious it wouldn't be, but Mike White is mind-fucking us you know?

But I guess we'll find out in a week!

Poor Belinda. Fuck you, Tanya, you fat whore!

Predictions: Kai disappears and presumably suicides at some ancestral site. Quinn drowns, allowing him to stay there forever. Rachel leaves. Paula is not arrested--she's one of those people of color that Nicole described as just wanting a seat at the table. Kitty has a fatal stroke--that's her body being flown to the mainland. Greg, who is married and has lung cancer, lets Tanya know he wanted one final fling. Tanya is devastated and unaware of how much she has disappointed Belinda. Armond is canned and goes on a tear.

Yeah, I think the only innocent character, Quinn, will be the one to die.

I called it earlier, Paula telling her bf about the bracelets.

Wouldn't a hotel like this have cameras in the halls and elevators?

Apparently not. I asked a friend who works in a 5 star hotel this exact question, and they don't put cameras on every floor. Some high flying guests want complete privacy for who they bring into their rooms.

Fan favorite to get killed would be Olivia who has shown zero redeeming qualities. Maybe Paula finally snaps and kills her or Kai kills her because she's about to rat him and Paula out.... and then takes the fall and Paula gets off scot free.

Latter scenario would be most in keeping with the Rich People Fuck Up Everything They Touch theme.'

SPOILER

I was mostly surprised about the jewelry bit because it was in the Scenes From Next Week video and seemed too obvious--kept thinking there would be some twist.

R405 is right. It's a soap opera.

Jennifer Coolidge is getting boring. I hope "the part of Tanya" is played by someone else next week.

Also, Uncle Rico (her boyfriend) must have covid.

R425, 👏 , that is Uncle Rico. I had to pause the show to look it up, I knew he looked familiar!

I suppose it’s too much to ask that frat boy forces Armond to give him dozens of blowjobs.

So Kai fucks Paula a couple of times and he's already asking her to move to Hawaii to live with him? The fuck? I don't think Mike has the balls to do it, but I'd love it if it turned out he was a grifter who twisted Paula into suggesting the whole thing.

My one little quibble with this incredible series - the $75,000 bracelets looked so cheap.

Can't wait for the finale but dreading Sunday nights without White Lotus. They must do a second season!

I thought the episode would have been great in a 12 episode series.

But it wasted too much time for a 6 episode series.

r430, your "waste of time" is perhaps exactly what most of us here love about the series. Taking its time to reveal these characters has been a plus.

Who is this "Mike" you speak of R428?

For all the whining over not getting the Pineapple room, it wasn't that nice.

The other room Shane and Rachel were in was so much more luxurious and spacious with a spectacular view.

Even Shane's mom wasn't impressed. But, these kind of people always want more. Even when it turns out what they had was enough.

I will probably never consider Alexandra Daddario a GREAT actress, but she was really good on the latest episode. She hardly had any dialogue, mostly reacting, until the poignant “I’ve made a terrible mistake” at the end. I wonder if Shane will wake up and find that Rachel has skipped out on him?

R429 So much that is super-expensive looks cheap and tacky.

R432 Mike White, the creator, writer and director.

I thought this was the best episode yet. The first two episodes are the only ones that came close to feeling like a "waste of time."

Got it R428-- you were suggesting Kai was the grifter, not Mike,

Seems unlikely though as we've already seen that it's totally Paula's idea as a way to get back at the Mossbachers and Olivia in particular.

Interesting casting too--while the actress is biracial (black mother, white father), she is not immediately recognizable as any particular race--she could be South Asian, Latin American or some other mix. You just know she's not 100% white.

I love Shane's blue, tight sweater he wears when he says goodbye to his mom.

I thought they would go with Paula being the evil schemer manipulating Kai, but she seemed distraught at the end.

Wouldn't it be crazy if it's Shane who died and his ghost watches his corpse get loaded into the airplane? Making the airport, in that first scene, some gateway to the afterlife.

I was seriously afraid for Quinn dying all alone while scuba diving, because daddy decided to bail. You just know the useless sister and her BFF would be of no help.

The show does drag at times, but at least it's not a Ryan Murphy show where he crams like five episodes into one and it's hard to give a shit about everything.

You know, the Mossbachers (Mossbach = moss pond in German) should thank Kai, because he brought them closer together. Better than any family therapy.

Olivia is so setting a trap for Paula with the claim her necklace was stolen, too.

R438 But does her being sad really cancel out the assholery in her convincing him to do something so stupid? And also not warning him the parents were on the way back? And this assumes she was sad about the impact on Kai - she might just be upset that it backfired and it actually had a positive outcome for the family in bringing them closer together, when she wanted to hurt them.

[quote] she might just be upset that it backfired and it actually had a positive outcome for the family in bringing them closer together, when she wanted to hurt them.

That is a good point.

The scene of Tanya trying to push Greg away was so hilariously absurd with Tanya's drama performance. And all Greg had so say is "I still want to fuck you" to shut her up. LOL.

Would the family really stay at the resort--in the same room!--after both the mom and dad had been physically assaulted and the perp was on the loose? Hmmm.

Will Mark or Shane have gay sex with the manager? There are hot.

I thought the bracelets were probably some antiquities.

So much happened this episode r430, what more could you possibly want.

[Quote]Wouldn't it be crazy if it's Shane who died and his ghost watches his corpse get loaded into the airplane? Making the airport, in that first scene, some gateway to the afterlife

Ryan Murphy is that you? Please keep your hands off this show.

I know we were supposed to feel for Rachel but I wanted to drink and talk shit about people with Shane and his mom. Stop being such a stick in the mud girl!

Also in regards to Dillon's sexuality I noticed he didn't seem the least bit weirded out by what happened. No way that was meant to be the first time that character has hooked up with a guy.

Dillon: See you Wednesday.

Armond: You mean tomorrow, you have the second shift.

Dillon: You said I can pick my own shifts. You said a bunch of shit.

Armond: I forget what I said.

Dillon: I didn't. You owe me.

-

Who is driving Olivia and Paula to the boat? Dillon. Either that's a continuity error or Dillon caved.

[quote] Ryan Murphy is that you? Please keep your hands off this show.

r447 = President of Shane Patton's Douchebag Fan Club

Just watched the first episode again. So much fun seeing the characters introduced, especially knowing what's coming. God I love this show!

The score on the score.

Kai getting caught is lazy screenwriting. Paula would have texted him, because people her age always have their phones with them, and those phones are always "on".

But it's a fantasy and not real life.

R452 Her not texting was seemingly a deliberate choice:

[quote]“People handle shocks to the system in different ways,” series creator Mike White explains to TVLine. “I think in the moment she’s hoping that the timing doesn’t end up being a problem and it’ll be OK. Maybe she got on her cell phone and tried to warn him and it was too late. I think it just all happened so quickly… It doesn’t seem that strange to me.”

[quote]White adds that Paula’s decidedly imperfect crisis instincts mirror his own. “I’m the kind of person who when a car coming at me and I’m in the middle of the road my mouth just hangs open and I [freeze],” he admits with a laugh. “When something catches fire in my house, my boyfriend immediately jumps in and grabs the fire extinguisher; I”m [the opposite].

Yeah I was like...why isn't she texting him ABORT ABORT? He could've not answered but her doing nothing...dumb bitch.

[quote]The score on the score.

The score is one of the worst aspects of this series. It doesn't give me a 'sense of dread', it's simply fucking annoying and extremely distracting. I had to turn down the volume, then I couldn't hear the dialog. I then had to put the series on CC. I'm serious. The 'score' is that BAD.

[quote]I had to turn down the volume, then I couldn't hear the dialog. I then had to put the series on CC.

Perhaps the problem is your TV and/or your ears. I haven't had any problem. I love the score, it's so different from other TV shows. I imagine it will win an Emmy.

r440 how do you think Whatsername is setting a trap for Paula re the "stolen" necklace. Paula threw it in the ocean it's not likely to turn up. (unless Quinn finds it when he does his scuba dive, which would be ridiculous)

There’s a limited series score category in the Emmys? That’s crazy specific!

Even without Shane contacting him, having two big stays in these very expensive suites having to get comped would definitely draw the attention of Armand's boss.

[quote] Paula threw it in the ocean it's not likely to turn up. (unless Quinn finds it when he does his scuba dive, which would be ridiculous)

Paula has TWO different necklaces. She threw the one Kai gave her away. The one she gave Olivia to be put in the safe is a different one and should still be in the safe.

[quote]There’s a limited series score category in the Emmys?

Yes - Outstanding Music Composition for a Limited or Anthology Series, Movie or Special. Nominated this year are:

Fargo

Oslo

The Queen's Gambit

The Underground Railroad

WandaVision

Re: the quote at R453. I suspect I am not the only one who has never had their house catch on fire or found themselves in the middle of a road with a car bearing down on them full speed.

Olivia seemed to indicate Paula's necklace was missing but didn't Kai only steal the bracelets? I thought we were supposed to see he made that mistake, which makes the robbery WAY more suspicious than just stealing everything.

She didn't text him that she was going to be late when they met either so maybe the white man has kept him so oppressed that he doesn't have a phone.

I noticed that too r448. After telling Armand he wasn't going to work tommorow, we see Dillon at work the next day. It confused me.

I'd like to think it was purposeful, but I suspect it was in error. Why would immediately change his mind in a few hours after he stood up to Armand about it and won the argument.

Paula is a manipulative bitch. A text to Kai (warning him) could've been used against her if he gets caught and cooperates with the authorities. She simply let the chips fall and got pissed she didn't win. The Mossbachers are no prize, but Paula is a snake.

That's how I interpreted the scene r466. Paula isn't dumb, a text to Kai would prove her guilt. Right now if he gets caught it is he said, she said.

Apparently Mike White is saying she froze, but I like my interpretation better...

[quote]Perhaps the problem is your TV and/or your ears. I haven't had any problem. I love the score, it's so different from other TV shows. I imagine it will win an Emmy.

Nothing is wrong with my ears or my TV. The most awful part of this score is when voices are used to mimic instruments. It's excruciating, literally painful. I find most scores distracting, but this is by far the worst, because it overwhelming and extremely distracting. This score makes Phillip Glass' music sound like Mozart or Beethoven!

I'm not the only person who finds the score distracting, a friend, who is actually a composer, he scores for PBS, other channels and documentaries, also finds this series score one of the worst he's heard in a long time. My friend has worked in the business for many years. The first words he used when talking about the score, "It's so overwhelming, the music totally distracts from the dialogue, it doesn't compliment. It's also too upfront."

There are two necklaces. Grandma’s necklace that’s in the safe and the one that Kai made for her that she has on the boat.

R438 That's the ugliest, tackiest shirt I've seen in my life.

Why did she threw the necklace away? I didn't even seen that part, must have missed it. Only saw her playing with the necklace on the boat.

And yet R468 and his composer friend continue to torment themselves by watching the series....

Paula is a pretty cold customer

Did Armond gave his boss's business card to Shane when he took them to the new room. He did gave him something that resembles a business card.

Mike White, quoted at r453: "People handle shocks to the system in different ways,” series creator Mike White explains to TVLine. “I think in the moment she’s hoping that the timing doesn’t end up being a problem and it’ll be OK. Maybe she got on her cell phone and tried to warn him and it was too late. I think it just all happened so quickly… It doesn’t seem that strange to me.”"

This guy doesn't seem to know any teenagers. Their first reaction is to grab the phone. Always.

Also, I'm guessing Kai dies. He was a secondary character, and his death is easily explained.

R475 But why would they be taking his body off the island?

R475 How the hell is his death easily explained? He doesn't seem like a type that would hurt himself.

Is the last episode going to be two hours? I don't see how they can settle all this up in an hour.

I assume Kai is killed while he's being pursued by police.

I was disappointed that Shane didn't toy with Armand more about what he had witnessed when Armand approached their table at dinner.

ARMAND: Is everything OK?

SHANE: It's delicious. What are you going to eat tonight? Will it be the same thing you ate last night? It sure seemed as if you were enjoying it.

R478 Bit there isn't much left to settle. Most of it was settled in this episode.

well, at least one person has to die. in the preview for ep 6, there's a brief shot of Olivia crying in her mother's arms, which might suggest that it's either Quinn or Daddy who buys the ranch. I'm thinking it's Quinn: he tells his family he's not leaving with them, goes out in the outrigger, and something happens. And Rachel has to make her exit. So does the manager. The Kai thing has to be resolved (or maybe not; maybe he's just never seen again). Something more should happen between Tanya and Belinda and Tanya and the guy. Or maybe not.

There's a lot to do in an hour.

Olivia crying could be because Paula died.

Depends how much misdirect there is in the preview.

Last week there was none and you knew someone was going to walk in on Kai while he was stealing the bracelets.

In this preview we see Quinn and Dad celebrating what appears to be the end of the dive, though it could also be the beginning if it's a misdirect.

And who is partying with Armond and Dillon?

I don't think Olivia would cry over Paula's death. Then again, I can't really see her crying over Quinn's either. Quinn's accident could have something to do with the outrigger.

Depends how much Olivia had to do with Paula's death

I think Belinda already realized this episode that Tanya is never going to make this business happen for her, but I'm sure we will see more.

I think the only things that really *need* to happen are someone dying, aome sort of conclusion to Shane/Armand situation, some sort of confrontation between Shane and Rachel, and some sort of cofrontation between Paula and Olivia.

Other stuff will happen, but there isn't a ton that necesarilly needs to be resolved.

[quote]Did Armond gave his boss's business card to Shane when he took them to the new room. He did gave him something that resembles a business card.

I believe it was the room key. It had the same hotel logo on it that the business card with the non-functioning number had.

I bet we've seen the last of Kai. Something about him going out of focus as he exited his last shot suggested that he was just no longer a part of the story. Or maybe I've just read Hitchcock/Truffaut too many times.

[Quote]And who is partying with Armond and Dillon?

It would be hilarious if it was Dillons boyfriend, would quickly put to rest any debate over his sexuality. But I assume it's some random guy Armand gets/pays to join them.

I can't get past the fact that Kai assaulted the wife, assaulted the husband, and stole their jewelry and we are still supposed to be cheering on Paula and Kai becuase the Mossbachers somehow deserved it.

[Quote]I bet we've seen the last of Kai.

Let's hope, that way he would manage a happy ending. If the chracter is in the finale it is going to end poorly for him.

I definitely don't think we are meant to cheer on Paula r489. She is presented as a very complex character with good and bad traits like many on this show.

Kai yes, we are meant to empathize with the tough choices he makes.

The tough choice to rob and assault a family that never did anything to him?

Each group or person has an "us (privileged) vs. them (servants, newbies, hanger-on)" dynamic.

Tanya vs. Belinda, Mossbachers vs Paula, Shane vs. Armond / Rachel.

The logical conclusion would be a "final showdown" of all of these groups and persons. Unless White pulls a John Logan and leaves us hanging like Logan did with Penny Dreadful (characters not meeting characters they had unresolved issues with like Ethan meeting Lily or Ethan addressing his hook-up with Dorian, etc.).

Maybe the third person in the scene with Armond and Dillon is....Shane. Or the Mossbacher dad.

R489 "we are still supposed to be cheering on Paula and Kai becuase the Mossbachers somehow deserved it." Who told t we are supposed to be cheering for them? You are making stuff up.

I wish this was a continuing series. They could have new characters come to the island and keep the same hotel staff.

[quote] I assume Kai is killed while he's being pursued by police.

He's a local. There would be no need to fly his corpse anywhere. Not saying he might die, but I highly doubt he's the one in the casket.

Yea r492. He has Lady Macbeth in his ear trying to hand him more money than he will ever have in his life with assurances of how easy it will be and that the family deserves it. The show makes it clear without Paula's pushing (who he practically asked to marry him) he would never think of doing this.

r495 if you watched the BTS stuff and interviews you would know that we are supposed to be on Kai and Paula's side

Maybe his body needs to be examined by a coroner on the main island or something r497. There aren't a lot of professional resources on Maui.

R468. I think the word you’re looking for is “complement”. Your overuse of commas is overwhelming and distracting. Oh dear and so there!

I hardly think Shane would be so broken up about the body in the box if it was Kai. I watched the first episode again and Shane is clearly upset about that box, whoever is in it.

The first episode also ends with a coming attraction and quick shots are shown of so many high points of the entire series (not just the second episode) including shots of the $75,000 bracelets and Nicole and Mark getting mugged by Kai though obviously we as the viewer don't really understand what (or even quite who) we're seeing.

The controversy and various interpretations over so many details of this series just proves how genuinely complex it is.

Is Shane actually upset about who is in the box or that Rachel left him r502?

To me whoever is died was meant to be a misdirect. The obvious implication is Rachel, but then it ends up having nothing to do with him.

Quinn would fit. Or Kai/Paula.

Seems very unlikely to me that Kai is the dead one, or Tanya's new love interest for that matter. I think it would be a cheat if it weren't one of the primary characters who were intro'd in the first episode.

I don't know why but I feel like Greg is going to be the one who dies.

I hear you r504 and r505, but re-watching the opening of E1, it certainly seems like Shane is upset about whoever's in that box. I realize, of course, that could be a big red herring.

As the critic who wrote early on in the first thread about having already seen the entire series, I've very much enjoyed re-watching the show through DL's eyes these past few weeks. All of your theorizing opened up the show for me in ways I hadn't experienced it myself. I haven't posted otherwise because it seemed a cheat, with me knowing where everything was going - I didn't want to accidentally spoil anything. Now I just wanted to say these threads have been good old fashioned DL fun and I'm sad it's almost over.

I'm thinking Quinn or Tanya. Most people aren't really invested in the other characters--certainly not Greg?

I've noticed that Rachel , even though in the Hawiian sunshine, has gotten even paler. In this episode, she looked as white as a ghost.

In fact, no one has a tan or a sunburn.

Quinn does. He's gone from pasty to healthy looking. I hadn't noticed Rachel.

Well the sun ages you and Alexandra Daddario has to protect her looks. Not surprised if she tried to avoid getting too much sun while filming.

I just watched episode #5. It's rare that I laugh and cry during one scene of a TV show, but Jennifer Coolidge made me go there. What a legend. Her line readings this whole series have been sublime.

Molly Shannon is incredible.

Connie Britton is excellent, as is the rest of the cast.

The writing is superb.

I love that there is a great show to watch on TV right now.

Wait-- you like [italic] literally[/italic] cried and laughed.

Maybe I'm just cold, but I just don't have those kind of reactions to TV shows, individually or together.

I mean I smirked when she said the line about the inside of the onion, but that was about it--it was smirkworthy,

No judgement implied, just surprised

If only the rest of us could be as unfeeling and dead inside as you are, R514.

R514 doesn't like to be touched.

I feel like Connie Britton is a nice person in real life. Am I wrong for thinking that?

Also, she apparently studied Mandarin and lived in Beijing back in college and I wonder if Mike White just wove that detail into the Nicole character as Nicole is described as knowing the language, doing business with Chinese business partners (and speaking it doing a Zoom call), and having honeymooned in Beijing.

Coolidge's "onion" monologue was a superb acting. Molly Shannon "silent" acting in a handful of small scenes also surprised me. Those two actresses mostly known for their more broad comedy skills really showed some range here.

Britton had also finally something to do and she nailed it.

I thought Molly Shannon's mother-in-law character was going to be more sabotaging/malicious toward Rachel's character, but after episode 5, it seems she genuinely wants Rachel to be happy and is definitely perceptive to what is going on between Shane and Rachel (whereas Shane is oblivious). She gave that little speech on relationship "asymmetry."

To be sure, she is pushing Rachel to be happy to make her son, Shane, happy though.

It won't be Kai in the cofrfin. He lives in Hawaii, why would they put him on a plane to the mainland?

[quote]Wait-- you like literally cried and laughed.

Yes. This entire series, I've mostly been laughing "at" Coolidge's character Tanya. She can be very meaningful, but superficial. She can also be quite pathetic. I've enjoyed Coolidge's ability to make this woman so watchable, and I have laughed a great deal.

When she finally confronts her lover with her "truth," I was laughing at first because Coolidge's timing is so comically impeccable. But, then, she gets very real and goes to a place I haven't seen the actress go before and suddenly I'm tearing up for this woman who I didn't have a great deal of respect for. Now this woman has made herself very relatable, as she is honest about who she is, how she views herself, and the fears she has had about how intimate partners view her. She has run out of fucks to give and she puts it all out there, even throwing her mother's ashes at her lover, and she is rewarded.

The scene felt fresh and was very well done, both from its construction, as well as its execution.

So, I literally laughed, THEN cried.

Now come over and stick your cold hard dick in my ass, so I can thaw you the fuck out, wipe that smirk off your face, and make you feel human.

Maybe no one's in the coffin.

I hope that Rachel goes on to Tahiti without Shane.

What the fuck am I supposed to do with your mother's ashes?

I just realised that Britton, Coolidge, and Molly Shannon were all in Promising Young Woman.

That's a great line too R524

R519, I had a different reaction to Shane's mother telling Rachel to just be happy.

She thinks her son is a catch and that Rachel should be "happy" that he chose her to marry. That living a life as her son's arm candy should be enough for her.

It felt like, to me, that to just be happy, is what Shane's mother demands of her.

[quote] I thought Molly Shannon's mother-in-law character was going to be more sabotaging/malicious toward Rachel's character, but after episode 5, it seems she genuinely wants Rachel to be happy and is definitely perceptive to what is going on between Shane and Rachel (whereas Shane is oblivious).

She knows what’s been going on because Shane has clearly been complaining about Rachel to her.

She is supportive in a way but it’s telling that she keeps complimenting Rachel on her looks — in Kitty’s eyes it’s the only value she brings to the marriage.

At some level you can't blame Kitty-- Rachel is a hack listicle writer who doesn't seem to realize she's a hack listicle writer and Shane mostly seems interested in her large American breasts.

To Kitty, listicle writer was just a job Rachel took until she met a rich guy like Shane.

Plenty of women in that social class do that--not so much listicle writers, but PR, advertising, fashion, the idea being exactly that--to have a job until they have the first child at which point they will pretend to go on maternity leave even though no one expects them to come back.

At some point when Zoe and Zach are in middle school they'll start a business designing bar and bat mitzvah invitations or personalized furniture for newborns (an "artist" paints "Ruby" on a wooden toy chest)

I think Shane's mother truly wants her new daughter-in-law to be happy, but only within the elite and shallow bubble in which she and her son exist. For Kitty, Rachel doesn't have an identity outside of being her son's wife.

I want to suck on Shane’s pale, puffy nipples.

The men on this show range from doable to hot, even grizzled Jon Gries. I'd enjoy watching an orgy with all of them (except Fred Heichinger if we're distinguishing between the characters and the actors).

Just watched Ep 5. I love this series so much, bravo to Mike White.

Utterly transfixed by the Rose Ensemble native Hawaiian choral music, as well as the original score, of course.

Connie Britton is quite tan. Just sayin'

On a Mike White binge so just watched Beatriz at Dinner, which he wrote and Miguel Arteta directed. It is brutal! Very little humor in it and quite depressing though a blisteringly honest picture of Trumpian and post-Trumpian America. Salma Hayek and John Lithgow are amazing.

But if you're looking for the mischievous wit of White Lotus, this is not for you.

Poor Kai, I will console him.

Everything Kitty says or does comes from a place of privilege and entitlement. Her "you won, (bitch)!" speech was all about Rachel being a stupid fucking bimbo (what's wrong with being a trophy wife?) who scored a lottery ticket and is too stupid to realize that. The hard work of gaining Shane's favor is over and now she can focus on making herself happy by making HIM happy.

All Kitty cares about is that Rachel will give her pretty grandchildren and not embarrass Shane and the family in society, so people won't talk behind their back like she does with her son at the breakfast table in the fifth episode.

R535 post-Trumpian America? It's from 2017

I think the point though R537 is that we're supposed to realize that it's a not unreasonable assumption on Kitty's part.

Rachel iis over 30, has no real career--she writes listicles--and doesn't seem to have any real passions-- she;'s not an artist or a marathoner--and she now hits her with some vague idea about "doing good."

She seems sweet and agreeable and she has really big tits, a hot body and a pretty face.

It's Rachel's realization that this is what people see when they look at her that is so jarring to her. For some reason, she's never realized how she comes off.

r539, that is very true. But the show presents all these characters with so many flaws that it's difficult to really side with a single one of them fully.

The entire show is basically trying to figure out who is the lesser of two evils in each scene.

Quinn dies.

I'm with r541.

I loved hearing Jennifer Coolidge's regular speaking voice in the behind-the-scenes feature for the latest episode. She came across as very intelligent, and her real cadence is much faster and less baby-doll-like.

I met Jennifer a couple of years ago when she was doing a show on Broadway, and I was shocked at how normal she sounded. And she was lovely, as well.

Jennifer is a really good actress.

She is a fully normal and charming human that can wear a character like a glove.

Lovely interview with her in The Guardian.

She talks about having out on a lot of weight during lockdown.

God she's so naturally funny - that interview had me in stitches. Very happy she's getting praise, it's overdue

Sunday nights have been White Lotus and Animal Kingdom, and it has me hankering for a crossover episode where the Cody boys come to the Hawaiian resort and wreck havoc fucking and robbing everyone.

[quote] charming human that can wear a character like a glove

That really sums up Jennifer Coolidge's acting abilities quite well. Her expression of Tanya's character is overtly comical at times, yet there's a relatable, serious and believable person being portrayed as well. She is superb in this role and I enjoy watching her in every scene she's in.

I've known people similar to Tanya; lost and wandering souls who are, as she says herself "deeply needy" people who wear their extreme range of emotions on their sleeves. They can't contain themselves, they emit intense auras, and go through life with their heavy baggage always in tow.

Just for reference, if you put Tanya and Nicole side by side, you couldn't find two more contrasting personas. The casting in this series is exceptional and is what makes it so entertaining.

Quinn runs off with Kai.

I know gay people have a soft spot in their heart for Jennifer Coolidge, but how the fuck is her performance in White Lotus any different than her other portrayals of awkward and/or rich women? Cut the crap. The other women on the show (Daddario, Britton, and Rothwell) are doing way more with less, and you all are predictably fawning over Coolidge, who is basically doing "Paulette Bonafante as Sherri Ann Cabot."

Oh, and I didn't think it could be done at this point, but Molly Shannon has managed to portray a type of rich bitch I don't recall seeing before on TV...but that I definitely know in real life. She's passive aggressive and loves gossiping about/judging others, but she's protective of her family. And even if she isn't a huge fan of her child's choice in partner, she's not a cartoon supervillain trying to actively destroy the other person...even though she says things that can be hurtful.

It's been renewed for a second season! It'll be a new cast (though White says some could return) and will take place at another White Lotus property.

Link here to THREAD THREE:

This is a stretch but after looking at the promotional artwork, the lightning bolt is striking Paula. I’m thinking she’s the corpse.

Not surprised HBO wants more r553. Interesting that it is going to take place at an entirely new location, I guess that is the best way to keep it fresh.

Well, either Rachel or Jake is bound to use the Tahitian reservation, and Mama Molly Shannon’s travel agent probably put together a package deal with the same resort chain, so I predict White Lotus: Tahiti will be season two.

^^^ Sorry Shane, played by Jake!

How comes it was easier to predict Mare of Easttown’s killer then White Lotus’ dead body?

Mama Molly pointed out that she would've picked a more suitable hotel (up to her standard), but was under the impression that The White Lotus resort would be so romantic and therefore a perfect fit for her sweet son's honeymoon. I don't think she, or Shane, will pick any other White Lotus resort after whatever happened in Hawaii.

It's a new cast, we aren't going to see Shane or Rachel in Season two.

Maybe Armand, he could get transferred to a new property.

I wanna be the 600th comment! And anyone that gets in my way is going home in a casket as cargo!

R561 is correct.

Yaassss, R548! I want that now, too.

Armand has fucked up so hard, maybe he'll be relocated to another, less prestigious property, and perhaps in a lesser role. That would make great conflict.

“ Armand has fucked up so hard, maybe he'll be relocated to another, less prestigious property”

That is indeed what happened. Armand was the one who found Chris Burrous in the Motel Six in the San Fernando valley.

It's Armond not Armand!

He would just get fired, not demoted

I can see Jolene Purdy coming back. She hardly got any screen time!

Lightning's hitting more people than Paula, R555.

Just lovin' Natasha Rothwell

R552, great observation.

The writing on this one was great. It's incredible Mike White and writing and directing every episode. He's a real talent.

Thank you, R570. I’ll sleep better tonight.

The really big surprise is that the dead body is wearing the bracelets!

Because this show isn't a murder mystery r559. That someone dies is just a hook.

According to the first episode which I just re-watched, it's not just a death, it's a murder. That's how Shane and the old married couple refer to what happened. I'd say it's fair to call this a murder mystery.

Olivia argues with Paula and threatens to go to the cops with her suspicions. Paula tells Kai who kills Olivia.

[quote]According to the first episode which I just re-watched, it's not just a death, it's a murder.

Saying that someone was killed doesn't necessarily mean it involved murder. They might have died in an accident.

[quote]Connie Britton is excellent, as is the rest of the cast.

Her crying back in the hotel room while folding clothes was a comedic performance, not dramatic. I Love Lucy crying. I thought she was TERRIBLE.

R580 = Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (who hasn't forgotten the time Connie used the last of her Pantene Pro-V shampoo when they were roomies at Dartmouth).

How is it that Alexandra Daddario's pupils are always so constricted? Not only here but in most photos. It certainly plays up the color of her beautiful eyes - but just something strange about it. Like she's on opiates of some kind. a lotus eater perhaps.

[quote] I Love Lucy crying. I thought she was TERRIBLE.

Worse still was her strange and frantic hand gestures while explaining to Mark how hurt she still was about his affair. I thought wha? But then Olivia later makes a sarcastic comment about Nicole's Tourette's, so maybe she was directed to play it up - still awkward and unnatural.

Belladonna is back, R582! I think it started with KPop.

Isn't belladonna used for dilation? I'm uniformed when it comes to KPop.

[quote] I Love Lucy crying. I thought she was TERRIBLE.

[quote]Worse still was her strange and frantic hand gestures while explaining to Mark how hurt she still was about his affair.

Watch the scene again. Their kids are in the next room so while she's speaking in anguish she has to keep her voice low. If you've ever seen someone extremely upset who can't yell about it but is trying to keep their voice to a whisper, you'll notice how the hand gestures become even more pronounced and gesticulate heavily to make up for the lack of volume. And then your throat swells up because you're overcome with emotion while still trying to make your point. Her body language all tracked.

But also, I don't think it was meant to be a heavy dramatic moment, so she's straddling a line with this performance. Especially when she's crying on the beach and complaining about "why am I always the punching bag?". It's meant to be a little bit comic while still conveying pathos.

Nicole is my least favorite character in the series.

Connie Britton's character comes across as cold, aloof, but also determined and assertive, and when she finally breaks down and lets her emotions breach her hardened shell, it's difficult to empathize with her. The one "flaw" in this series is her moments of intensity at the dock and in the hotel room just prior to coming across the burglar. In the latter scene, she's at her most vulnerable point in the series so far, but it presents as somewhat superficial, considering to the extreme she views herself as her family's punching bag and from her husband's past sins. But then again, maybe that's Mike White's intention. After all, as many people have pointed out, most of the characters are not models of virtue to begin with and that is what so richly colors the show.

Nicole is basically shouting to everybody "You just hate me because I'm a successful woman!" She screams that at other women, at other men, like her husband, and she screams it at her kids. That's the huge chip on her shoulder.

I, for one, love Connie Britton as Nicole. I'm enjoying all of the characters and loving the entire series.

As awful as many of the characters are, I'm finding it very difficult to hate any of them. Expect maybe Shane. He really is a douchebag.

Shane is so obviously self-absorbed and shallow, it's almost not worth the effort to hate him.

In the end (just speculating here), Rachael will probably hand him some incisive, parting words, and maybe, for a fleeting moment he'll face what he actually is. But, a character such as Shane is not capable of any real shame, so his being dumped will simply morph into anger as shown in the opening scene at the airport.

Can

we

please

bring

this

thread

to

a

merciful

end?