Jay Sebring Documentary - Cutting to the Truth (2020)

Has a certain Mr. Beatty been consulted?

If you ever went to the Basic Plumbing Bathhouse on Fairfax, you might've run into Sebring's ghost. It was his private office with the salon downstairs.

Thanks, OP. I am going to check it out.

I had no idea Jay Sebring was straight.

Speaking of Truth, here's Jay Sebring, along with his imposters, in a 1963 episode of To Tell the Truth.

So was he into the same satanic shit as that Whore Sharon Tate ?

Jay Sebring was Steve McQueen's personal drug dealer.

McQueen was so fearful that the murders were drug related, he took a gun with him to Sebring's funeral.

Barbara Luna was Jay's girlfriend prior to Sharon. Barbara later married Doug McClure.

He was no Vidal Sassoon

Some of his clients: Paul Newman, Jim Morrison, and Sinatra.

I hate Paul Newman. I know many guys with the same kind of look and the same kind of energy. They're bi, exclusively bottom, always married (tocloseted lezs), always very good at flying under the radar, very happy to fool everyone

Can't wait to watch this! Thanks, OP.

The more I read about Tate and Sebring, the more it appears they deserved to die this way. They were worse than the family

What in the hell are you going on about R13? That is some bad karma you are throwing around. Hope you stay safe.

hahaha you believe in that shit. Tate was a smug cunt and a whore, the baby was not even Roman's, she was fucking everybody under the sun, I don't think she knew who the father was, she was into very kinky satanic stuff, a member of satanic ring and Sebring was a drug dealer. It didn't just "happen" to them. Throw in Rosemary's babay, and you have the perfect recipe for disaster. Play with the fire, see what happens

To BrokenButt: you need to get the hell outta here.

after you dear

In the To Tell the Truth video at R5, the guy on the left is a hunk! He says he's a wallpaper salesman but looks like an actor. Gorgeous!!

R16 sorry to burst your bubble.".saint " Sharon hahahaha

R15, the beauty of being part of gay culture is that all judgement and hypocrisy goes out the window. Have you ever done anything immoral? Then by your logic, you deserved to be hacked to death too. See how it feels when it’s turned around? Don’t be a hypocrite. No one, and I do mean no one, deserves to be slaughtered. And you say she did deserve it because she was a slut? I was a slut too. Fuck you mother fucker.

was he still fucking Sharon Tate when they got killed?

R20, not only were you a slut, but you also support abortion...lady, I am glad I'm not in your shoes...the day will come for you too ya know ?

R21, She was eight months pregnant.

There were all sorts of rumors about the orgies on Cielo Drive. A lot of the rumors started when frykowski got the exclusive right to distribute the new drug MDA in the LA area. But both Sharon and Roman were out of town, Sharon in Italy filming her last movie and Roman in London preparing Day of the Dolphin when these orgies were to have taken place. Frikowski liked to pick up people off the Strip for threesomes and people were in and out all the time he was there alone with Folger. A story went around that a dealer burned Frikowski and Sebring on a coke deal, they tied him to a chair and both took turns raping him in front of partygoers but this was most likely false. Sharon was very tired of Frikowski and Polanski called him a loser but wouldn't ask him to leave so Sharon was stuck with him. By all accounts, on top of being beautiful, Sharon was a kindhearted, sweet woman.

R20 let me get this straight (pun intended) for you, you are not , except in your own mind "part of the gay culture". you are a frau. = someone completely off base and tone deaf, invading gy men spaces and lecturing them about "the beauty of being part of the gay culture". TYou are unsufferable, and not welcome here. R23 pregnant women DO fuck.

|quote] By all accounts, on top of being beautiful, Sharon was a kindhearted, sweet woman.

and a whore, playing with a satanic cult

You're a broken record, r25 and you'd be wise to see a mental health professional.

Wait…JETHRO???

[quote] In the To Tell the Truth video at [R5], the guy on the left is a hunk! He says he's a wallpaper salesman but looks like an actor. Gorgeous!!

I wondered if he was playing the part of an effeminate man, circa 1963, to convince the panelists that he was a hairdresser.

I wonder if Sharon would have divorced Polanski if she lived. Maybe she was planning on getting back together with Sebring.

[quote] I wonder if Sharon would have divorced Polanski if she lived.

Somehow, I didn't seem them as having a long-lasting Hollywood marriage. ala Jimmy & Gloria Stewart.

[quote]I wonder if Sharon would have divorced Polanski if she lived.

At the end of the documentary Sharon's lawyer says she asked him to draw up the papers. She accepted Polanski's fooling around but when he slept with Michelle Phillips, who was a close friend, she was tired of the humiliation. While the carnage was taking place on Cielo Drive Polanski was with a bimbo he'd picked up at a London disco. He was a rat-faced dwarf who only got laid because of who he was.

Sebring's nephew is a hot daddy.

Tried to watch the documentary, got thru about 1/2 and gave up. Just too drawn out and badly written and produced.

Agree, R33 but I couldn't find another single thing that was interesting.

I'll admit to tearing up when Jay's sister told the story of his bronzing the shoes.

I know, MARY!

[R7], can you imagine the kind of security that funeral would have today?

Jay's star studded funeral . . .

Henry Fonda, James Garner, Steve McQueen, Ryan O'Neal, Roman Polanski, John and Michelle Phillips, etc.

^Wrong link . . .

R24, lots of yellow journalism and sordid speculations were put out there because the press and many uptight people were biased against counterculture types and hippies. There was a culture war going on at the time, and the Tate-La Bianca murders fueled right-wing hysteria and people were willing to believe the worst about liberal Hollywood.

What exactly wasn't true, [R39]? Hollywood ain't exactly Mayberry. And you're wrong, the Tate-La Bianca murders fueled HYSTERIA. Stop tagging untrue and tired shit onto something like this; it was gruesome enough without your polarization of it.

How much did it cost for a typical men's haircut in 1963? That To Tell the Truth episode makes a big deal over a $25 Sebring hair cut but, of course, that would be a very cheap price tag today.

Jay's real name was John Tom Kummer. He knew he had to change it.

How could that TTTT contestant not know that Sinatra's eyes were blue?

I watched the Lady Boss documentary about Suzanne Collins in which her daughter was heavily involved and maybe even a producer as well. While it gets you access to many aspects of that person’s life and the people close to her, like Joan’s extensive involvement, there’s no way it can not be biased or indulge in leaving out materials that the family feels uncomfortable with.

At one point there seemed to be very rigid ethical structures for making documentary films and things like family involvement were minimized and you were all but guaranteed that they wouldn’t have undue influence over it. And there was very little dramatic recreation of events in films, and if there was it was minimal and clearly labeled as such. So much now days is like a movie filmed within the boundaries of what’s called a documentary, especially if it’s true crime. Say what you will about the Chris Watts family annihilation documentary on one of the streamers recently, all materials was drawn from news media, social media, and officer body cam. There wasn’t even a voice over narration. I miss the days of more purer, academic documentaries. That multi segment OJ Simpson documentary, by I think ESPN, a few years back also was a gold standard of what I would like to see documentaries hold themselves to.

^Jackie, not Suzanne.

I read a story about Polanski and Tate years ago. He was a notorious pussyhound despite being married to Tate. One day he was driving around, looking for some babe to pick up and saw a gorgeous blonde walking along the sidewalk. He catcalls her and she turns around and he discovers it's Tate. He turned bright red and she figured out he hadn't recognized her, just presumed she was another pickup.

R46, That's right up there with Ryan trying to pick up Tatum at Farrah's funeral.

R41, adjusted for inflation, $25.00 in 1963 would be tantamount to $219.93 in 2021 dollars.

There was this guy, Paul Watkins, who was with Manson from the beginning. He was the best-looking of the bunch, a Jackson Browne lookalike and he's the one who pulled most of the girls into The Family. He said Manson would conduct nightly orgies from a chair. "If you had a hang-up about homosexuality, then he'd have you do anything and everything with another guy." Paul got out a couple of months before the murders but then rejoined and tried to act as head of the remaining members once Charlie was jailed. When they found out it was Paul's testimony that helped put Charlie away, Paul figured he'd better leave again. He has a daughter, Claire Watkins, who wrote a book called an acclaimed book "Battleborn" about life with Dad, etc. Watkins died of cancer in 1990.

"wrote an acclaimed book..."

I read Battleborn several years ago and it was very good.

Both Jay Sebring & Voytec Frykowski were drug dealers, as was Mama Cass’s bf Pic Dawson. In fact, s John Philips suggested that PIG written in blood on the door of the Tate house was PIC.

The original theory of the Tate killing was correct. It was a drug deal gone wrong. Look who Manson sent his followers to kill the first time - Gary Hinman, a drug dealer with a chemistry degree, formulated mescaline in his house in Topanga Canyon. The Mansons bought mescaline from him for a large amount of money & sold it to Bernard Lotsa Poppa Crowe. Lotsa Poppa said the mescaline was beat & took Tex Watkins’ girlfriend hostage until he was refunded the money. The Mansons went to Hinman’s house & demanded the money, which Hinman said he didn’t have. Manson to,d his followers to torture Hinman until they gave him the money. But Hinman’s money was tied up in other deals. Manson gave the order to kill Hinman, then went to Lotsa Poppa’s place with Tex. They shot Crowe and took Watson’s girlfriend back. Manson thought he’d killed Crowe. He also thought Crowe was a Black .panther, which he wasn’t, but may have given Manson the impression that he was.

Fun fact - Suzan Struthers, (LaBerge) daughter of Rosemary LaBianca, lived in the same apartment complex as Tex Watson. She later became his pen pal when he was in prison. Suzan had been arrested for credit card theft. Her boyfriend Joe Dorgan, was a member of a motorcycle gang involved in a car theft ring and had been arrested several times for Grand Theft Auto (GTA). Suzan’s brother Frank had been arrested for GTA. Both Suzan & Frank later had their charges dropped, while friends of Frank didn’t have their charges dropped & there was some bad feelings with Frank’s friends. Those feelings were investigated because one of Frank’s friends who’d been sent to juvenile hall with him was suspected as a possible revenge killer.

Leno LaBianca, Suzan’s stepfather, embezzled $200,000 from his family’s business. He was supposed to make restitution, but he was broke…supposedly. Because at the same time Leno was also involved in a mysterious real estate deal to buy a ranch. But how could he take out an expensive mortgage of he was broke? And why did he embezzle money from the family business if his wife Rosemary was sitting on a million dollars in the bank from “selling dresses out of a truck” as Bugliosi told a gullible America.

And why did Bugliosi forget to mention that Rosemary had been in a motorcycle gang and stole everything from one of her boyfriends? And the story Bugliosi tells about her origins are vague. She came from somewhere in Mexico and wound up in an Arizona orphanage until she was adopted at age 12. She was married 3 times and her ex husband Frank thought Suzan was his daughter, but she wasn’t. .

Suzan LaBerge was a very strange person who took most of the proceeds of her mother’s estate. Her half brother got next to nothing and became a recluse. Suzan is suspected of deliberately putting her daughter in the same school as where Sharon Tate’s sister Patti sent her daughter, then buddying up to Patti, who allowed her daughter to visit and stay over LaBerge’s house. Suzan then called Tex Watson’s wife and told her that Sharon Tate’s niece was at her house. Watson bragged about it in prison and Tate was notified and immediately went to collect her daughter.

Suzan’s daughter was stabbed to death last year

R52.... whut???? Where did all that come from?

R53, there are posters here who are very very invested in this story. Makes it more fun.

"The original theory* of the Tate killing was correct. It was a drug deal gone wrong." [R52], I've read Bugliosi pushed the drugs/hippie angle to get convictions for the death penalty. Fair enough. Your post contains several points I have questions about, because it amounts to suggestion with absolutely nothing to back it up. Such as *whose original theory? And please don't tell me to google it. You brought it up, show us the receipts. But I just wish t ask one question, and that's about the sentence in quotations.

That's a MAJOR claim that deviates from an overwhelming amount of information, much of it trustworthy. Would you care to elaborate on this? It's a bombshell, and aside from that sentence, there's no followup to support it in your post. It seems the accepted story about the Tate slaughter is the general one, and deviations from it are welcomed with derision by those who wish to preserve the reputations of some of those who were murdered. After all this time, I still wonder about the accepted whole story of the Tate-La Bianca killings. As I've gotten older, I have realized that it might very well have been beneficial to many to whitewash some of its tawdry elements. This is your chance to lend the latter supposition credibility.

R55 Are you from a law firm with a name like that?

[quote]A story went around that a dealer burned Frikowski and Sebring on a coke deal, they tied him to a chair and both took turns raping him in front of partygoers but this was most likely false.

This rumor was spread by, of all people, Peter Tork of The Monkees fame.

I've heard the drug-deal theory before, too. The rumor was that Manson dealt drugs to a lot of the Hollywood elite, who conveniently forgot this fact once the murders happened. Frykowski was trying to become a major MDMA dealer and threatening Manson's turf. The hit was only supposed to take out Frykowski and Folger as a warning to others. Sharon wasn't supposed to be there: Her red Ferrari was in the shop and not parked at Cielo Drive, so the murderers thought she wasn't home. Sebring and Parent were collateral damage, too.

No idea if there's any truth to this, but it's an interesting theory.

Because there was such a gap between the murders and the Manson family's apprehension, all sorts of rumors sprung up and paranoia replaced promiscuity. Drug dealers Pic Dawson (Mama Cass's boy toy) and Billy Doyle were well known around Cielo Drive and were suspects in the murders before being cleared months later...

"The other major rumor ricocheting through the Hollywood Hills, which is still cited by many, all these years on, concerned Billy Doyle. It was known at the time that Folger and Frykowski had a penchant for cruising Sunset Strip and bringing home young men. After drugging them, they would tie them up and film them. Some weeks before the murders, as the tale goes, they had a spectacular falling out with Doyle over a business (drug) deal gone sour and had decided to exact revenge not only by doing what they usually did to their pick-ups but by flogging him in front of an invited audience. They apparently recorded this on film. The story then goes that when Doyle realized what had happened, he was, according to Monkee Peter Tork, who was living in the canyons at the time, "murderous." Raging, Doyle insisted he would kill Folger and Frykowski. Wary that he might carry out his threat, a similarly macho friend chained him to a tree in Cass's garden to calm him down before hauling him onto a plane out of the country. In the light of Doyle's oft-repeated claims that he had killed a man and his overall hard-core machismo stance, it is easy to understand how an episode like this might have been considered sufficient motive for him to have committed the murders. "If they were gonna do that to Billy," says Tork, "they wanted to die! That was death-provoking. It was a murderously dangerously thing to do!""

Where did Peter Tork write about this?

Link for R59

The rape story (version 2.0):

"According to what Candice Bergen told Sharon's father, 'Doyle had gone to Jamaica to acquire a significant amount of drugs to Frykowski . . . and when the money didn't arrive from Los Angeles, Doyle returned in anger. With a gun, Doyle, the story went, stormed to Cielo Drive and threatened to kill Frykowski. Jay Sebring was on hand, and with Frykowski's help, overcame Doyle and took him to Mama Cass's house where they tied him to a tree, then buggered him in front of an audience of twelve. Doyle threatened to get even.' Actor Dennis Hopper claimed to be one of those who witnessed Doyle's rape and alleged that there might even be video of the event, although it never surfaced."

to all the "saint Sharon " worshippers here. the slut was banging anything that moved, even at an advanced state of pregnancy

She could've done a hell of a lot worse than Christopher Jones R63. She was trying to accept Polanski's infidelity and had for a long time. Then she found out he was fucking Michelle Phillips, their close friend. Revenge sex.

I think it was in Italy where Sharon gave up and didn't care any more. She had her lawyer draw up divorce papers and was planning on moving on without the rat-faced dwarf. Polanski was the whore in that relationship.

She was a whore and he was a whore and they were perfect for each other, but no one worships saint Roman.

typical feminist BS. Sharon was a saint= Roman is satan

What a breathtakingly beautiful man. 1960s perfection. His small size doesn't bother me, in fact, I prefer it. Anybody else here besides me think he looks like Christopher Atkins but with dark hair rather than blond?

R49, in no sense was Paul Watkins in the same league of beauty as Jackson Browne.

The documentary is slight as fuck. Family members should never be allowed to be involved as they will always straight wash.

He created products and had multiple salons before any male hairdresser. He would have made Paul Mitchell money had he not been murdered.

The military could have been sued for not verifying his age when admitting him and all the male nakedness (and sex?) he was exposed to as a minor

that was great, op! thanks!

According to R63’s article, Tate was smoking opium while pregnant (or at least had some with her on the Italian shoot).

Oh fuck, for the love of Gawd

First of all, Broken Butterfly, why call Tate a whore? Especially on this site, of all bloody places. If her sister reads this, her reaction may be less than positive. By all accounts, she’s sorta obsessed with policing her sister’s post humous legacy and reputation. We all know this here. No need to be nasty about Sharon.

Also, Satanic cults aren’t real. Cosplay is not Satanism, nor is a thing called “Satan” real. Lighting an assorted set of multi-colored candles placed in a fucking circle and proceeding to chant bullshit gibberish, isn’t Satanism, as much as a bunch of hysterical neurotics, speaking in tongues while on a church service isn’t Christianity.

Both of these things are ritualistic performances that people participate in for whatever fucking reasons, and while both practices do seem to attract mentally unwell people, most people involved in this crap are just looking for a way to express themselves and their neuroticism, via the abstract, and the smarter ones either exploit it if they’re true assholes, or realize the futility and absurdity of either, and walk away. No harm, no foul.

The drug dealing , coke sniffing , orgiastic assertions are silly AF, since by all accounts, most of Hollywood’s show-biz kids were all doing the same shit, whether on El Cielo Drive or elsewhere.

No one “manifested” or “drew” a gang of psychos to their doorsteps who proceed to grotesquely butcher them , as a consequence for partying and/or fucking, male or female, pregnant or not, Hollywood famous or hangers on, alike.

I’m not a sycophant regarding this particular part of Hollywood’s “true crime” history, and while I sporadically do get into researching/learning more about it, I find the obsession many display towards it to be oddly macabre at best, or alternatively exploitative, (as per usual), at worst.

The documentary is fascinating AF so far, and it’s a damn shame people lost their lives in this particular manner.

Also, to the trolls going on about “Hollywood Liberals”? Please do, shut the fuck up, you fucking prudish and Pollyanna dweeb. Who the fuck actually extrapolates shit like this to liberal or conservative politics?

JFC. 🖕🏽

The second LaBianca murder investigation police report.

Note in the police report that virtually everyone the LaBianca’s knew were crooked or having multiple affairs, arrested for swindling, narcotics, grand theft auto. Both of Rosemary’s children had been involved in criminal activity - Susan had stolen & used a credit card and Frank had been arrested with friends for a “joyride.”

Not Ozzie & Harriet. Bugliosi only mentioned Leno had embezzled money from the family business and gambled a lot. He pretty much left out Rosemary’s unsavory past (stole everything from a boyfriend & disappeared), was involved in multiple affairs with people of both sexes while married). Rosemary was very sexually active and I wondered about her mysterious childhood. She was born in Mexico and lived in an orphanage until age 12 when she was adopted by an American couple. I wonder if she was sexually abused or trafficked by the people who adopted her.

Were the Folgers this intertwined with the underworld as well?

Abigail was a speed freak. She and Frykowski were doing MDA the night she was murdered.

But seriously… virtually all of Hollywood was on drugs. Amphetamines to stay slim & stay awake to party. Barbiturates to sleep. Weed all the time. LSD was widely available and rich show biz people would go out to the desert or the beach and trip their brains out. None of this stuff was considered a big deal in Hollywood. It all started out with stars crossing the border to Baja and bringing back weed. Then LSD came along and the guys who were producing & giving out the LSD were upper class types who were dressing in outlandish clothes and playing hippie in a multicolored bus. They became celebrities. Owsley, the main source of LSD then, was the son of a government attorney and the grandson of a senator.

Pic Dawson, boyfriend of Mama Cass and a drug dealer, was the son of a state departmentment official. It wasn’t seedy to Hollywood people — it was normal, everyday stuff. You went to the celebrity hairdresser and bought your drugs. You didn’t wonder where they came from. You were doing 2 things considered ultra cool in Hollywood - you were well known enough to be a client of the celeb hairdresser and you were buying your weed/speed/acid at the cash register. And you paid cash, never a check or credit card.

So Hollywood was buying its drugs from people from upper middle class backgrounds. They didn’t wonder how some of them got drugs, or whether or not criminals were increasingly horning in & selling beat drugs, then killing each other. It was also the days of free love and do your own thing where Steve McQueen kept a room at the Beverly Wiltshire to “audition” young women for roles in non-existing movies, a la Bill Cosby. And Peter Tork, who is mentioned up thread, was as well known for picking up teenaged hitchhikers as Dennis Wilson was. But Tork didn’t let them move into his house.

Today it looks so seedy…because of what it devolved into…but at the time everyone just thought they were having fun living the dream in the sun.

Blocked broken 🦋 . What a demon witch

[R63], Christopher Jones is a garden variety starfucker. Anybody who would put a story like tht out (whether or not it's true) is interested only in enhancing their fifteen minutes of fame. I'm not suggesting it didn't happen. I'm insisting it's vulgar and inappropriate. And whom exactly does it benefit?

Oh….remember when UK cops were arresting rock stars in high profile cases, then letting them go? They arrested Mama Cass when she arrived at the dock in Southampton, it was a trumped up charge of welching on a hotel bill & stealing some towels. But they really arrested her to interrogate her about Pic Dawson, who was smuggling & dealing drugs internationally. Pic & Billy Doyle were dealing in Hollywood, London and Toronto.

Am I cutting to the truth correctly?

Here’s the story of Susan LaBerge’s daughter’s murder

She had “at least one child,” r84? What, were there are scurrying creatures on the premises which may or may not have been her spawn?

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Rosemary

About those sex tapes, ie the one Folger & Frykowski made of whipping & sodomizing Billy Doyle….there were a lot of sex tapes in the loft at cielo drive. Bugliosi claimed there was only one tape of Polanski and Tate having sex which LAPD respectfully returned to its place. Yeah, right,…..nice try

[italic] Hinckle also brought me to the renowned private investigator Hal Lipset, who informed me that not only did the Los Angeles Police Department seize pornographic films and videotapes that they found in Sharon Tate's loft, but also that certain members of the LAPD were selling them. Lipset had talked with one police source who told him exactly which porn flicks were available – a total of seven hours' worth for a quarter-million dollars. Lipset began reciting a litany of porn videos. The most notorious was Greg Bautzer, an attorney for Howard Hughes, with Jane Wyman, the former wife of then-Governor Ronald Reagan. There was Sharon Tate with Dean Martin. There was Sharon with Steve McQueen. There was Sharon with two black bisexual men.

Lipset recalled, “The cops weren't too happy about that one.”

He told me there was a videotape of Cass Elliot from the Mamas and the Papas in an orgy with actors Yul Brynner, Peter Sellers, and Warren Beatty – Brynner and Sellers, together with John Phillips of the Mamas and the Papas, had offered a $25,000 reward for the capture of the killers.. [/italic]

Forgot link

I had felt that there was some connection between Charlie's executioners and their victims before the murders took place. I finally tracked down a reporter who told me that when she was hanging around with L.A. police, they showed her a porn video of killer Susan Atkins and victim Voytek Frykowski, even though, according to the myth, they had never met until the night of the massacre.

But apparently the reporter mentioned the wrong victim, because when I asked Manson directly – “Did Susan sleep with Frykowski?” – he replied: “You are ill advised and misled. [hairdresser victim Jay] Sebring done Susan's hair and I think he sucked one or two of her dicks. I'm not sure who she was walking out from her stars and cages, that girl loves dick, you know what I mean, hon. Yul Brynner, Peter Sellers . . .”

I came across Billy Doyle's name in Ed Sander’s book, The Family. Doyle was Cass Elliot’s boyfriend. He was also the drug connection for two of the victims, Voytek Frykowski and his girlfriend, coffee heiress Abigail Folger. Sanders wrote:

Sometime during [the first week in August] a dope dealer from Toronto named Billy Doyle was whipped and video-buggered at [the Tate residence]. In the days before his death, Sebring had complained to a receptionist at his hair shop that someone had burned him for $2,000 worth of cocaine and he wanted vengeance. Billy Doyle was involved in a large-scale dope-import operation involving private planes from Jamaica..

And Dennis Hopper was quoted in the Los Angeles Free Press:

They had fallen into sadism and masochism and bestiality – and they recorded it all on videotape too. The L.A. police told me this. I know that three days before they were killed, twenty-five people were invited to that house to a mass whipping of a dealer from Sunset Strip who’d given them bad dope.

Naturally, Billy Doyle felt it was rude of Sebring and Frykowski to tie him to a chair, whip him, and then f**k him in the ass while a video camera taped the proceedings before a live audience. When folksinger Phil Ochs and Yippie Jerry Rubin visited Manson in jail, Ochs asked him if he knew Doyle. Manson, who had been quite glib up to that point, flinched, then hesitated, and said, “No.”

Police investigators eliminated Doyle as a suspect in the murders. [bold] However, on the Friday evening just a few hours before the massacre took place, Joel Rostau – the boyfriend of Sebring's receptionist and an intermediary in a cocaine ring – visited Sebring and Frykowski at the Tate house, to deliver mescaline and coke. During the Manson trial, several associates of Sebring were murdered, including Rostau, whose body was found in the trunk of a car in New York. So it appeared that the Manson family had actually served as some sort of hit squad for a drug ring. [bold]

Btw, if you’ve never heard of the author of the article linked at R89 and quoted in R90 and R91, it’s Paul Krassner, a Merry Prankster who was one of the founders of the Youth International Party (yippies). He was also a journalist and political satirist - think Lenny Bruce, Mort Saul.

He was one of the people who made the 60s happen and knew just about all of the California musicians of the time living in the canyons and in Malibu and at pricey desert retreats. He knew Scientologists, primal scream therapists, award winning novelists, Greenwich Village denizens, high priced lawyers for people like Peter Folger ……and the Manson family.

The Manson family was really a crime family like the Lucheses or the Gambinos. They were California’s version of a criminal gang…instead of tailored suits and sunglasses that the NY crime families favored, they favored the California style of dress at that time. You look at how the Manson family dressed and it’s no different than how Jim Morrison, Dennis Hopper, Joe Walsh or Jackson Brown dressed. The girls dressed like the girlfriends and the groupies of the current stars of the music scene. Even movie stars like Ali McGraw adopted pigtails and Indian headbands. That was California in 1969. What was unusual was how the media simply didn’t get it. Members of the media who covered criminal gangs were based on the east coast in Boston, NY, Philly and Baltimore. They were used hanging outside of dark social clubs with bars on the window, and Italian restaurants. Their guys wore suits, ties and pinky rings. They were flabbergasted by criminals with long hair wearing buckskin suede and granny dresses.

The Hollywood players like Jay Sebring and Sharon Tate only pretended to be cool with the present youth movement. Real hippies were against capitalist consumerism, but the Hollywood jet set hipsters were flying between LA, NY, London, Paris and Milan wearing thousand dollar fringed vests that usurped the hippie look and turned it into high priced haute couture. They looked down their noses at the people who smuggled their drugs into Hollywood from Mexico, Jamaica and Canada. All of the murdered people at Cielo Drive were from upper middle class or wealthy backgrounds. Frykowski’s father was a financier.

Paul Krassner knew people from the jet set as well as established Hollywood stars and genuine hippies. He knew gangsters. He fucked groupies in rock band orgies.

Is there anybody who was actually there (in the LA area) when this happened? I mean the oxygen-sucking paranoia of not knowing who did this? Or am I being naive? Was there a general knowledge of who perpetrated these crimes? I'm being completely serious. I always feel it necessary to say I'm serious about something here on DL because most of my replies are the glib insults of a mentally challenged earwig (not to throw any shade at earwigs). There is the story that everybody flushed their drugs soon after the Tate-La Bianca murders. Because my study of this is limited (I've had one greusome violent death in my family wh. I study when I am strong enough, because I can feel the strength waning and I walk away from whatever i'm referencing in order not to begin to dwell too deeply on the incident). But it seems to me from what I've read in this thread, and I must admit I'm fascinated, not by the murders, but how the public was kept completely in the dark about the whole story. My understanding of this as I mentioned upthread, is that Bugliosi decided to chance it and go for the drugs angle so that the Right Wing/Hippie yawning chasm (wh. wasn't a chasm at all) would result in a conviction.

I've strayed from my orig, point (ME? As I've said to my psychiatrist many times, you obviosly have me mistaken for someone else, sweetheart!) of this post. And that is, do we have any personal experiences, not ncessarily of who knew the victims, but the general vibe immediately after the murders, and the ensuing months the LAPD fucked up so badly that it was only after Sexy Sadie blabbered to a cellmate about Charlie, that blew the case wide open?

[quote] Such as *whose original theory?

R55?

THE

POLICE’S

ORIGINAL

THEORY.

DuH. And yes, we will tell you to Google it, you asshole.. First of all, we were there in 1969 watching tv, listening to the radio and reading newspaper accounts of the crime. The police thought it was a drug burn. They especially thought it involved Frykowski. The others, police believed, were collateral damage.

How do you find this information. Easy..Google “Tate Murders police theory drug deal.” Simple as that. Next, enjoy the reportage & interviews from places like

Huffington Post UK - First, because a star and her unborn child had died, in what police first thought was a drug deal gone wrong

Paley Center for Media - This kind of narcotic trafficking went hand in hand with the first theory of the police — they believed that this was a drug burn or a revenge killing over drugs at the Tate house over a deal that involved at the very least Wojciech Frykowski, and possibly Jay Sebring

WVTM 13 news - Police were initially convinced the Tate murders were just part of a drug deal gone wrong

Britannica.com - Investigators were initially baffled and failed to make the connection between the two murder scenes, with detectives convinced that a drug transaction was the likely trigger for the Tate murders.

Rolling Stone magazine - It was a loopy, harebrained scenario and one that Bugliosi's fellow law-enforcement types wished he would ditch in favor of something more down-to-earth, like robbery or a drug deal gone sour

Businessinsider.com - After finding hashish, marijuana, MDA, and cocaine at the Tate-Polanski residence, police locked onto the theory that the Tate murders were a drug deal gone awry.

Wikipedia- Many have brought up Jay Sebring's and Voytek Frykowski's drug dealing and their connection with Charles Watson and Manson and a bad drug deal as a motive.

Collider.com - Los Angeles was thrown into a panic, though initially, the Los Angeles Police Department assumed the Tate killings were the result of a drug deal gone wrong

Medium.com - Initially, Detectives considered the murder a drug deal gone wrong

LAmag.com - Terry argues that the Tate murders had to do with drugs, one of the original police theories.

Wikipedia.com - Thinking the Tate murders were a consequence of a drug transaction, the Tate team

So….yeah. The original LA police theory was that the Tate murders were “a drug deal gone wrong” or “a drug burn.”

[quote] Hollywood jet set hipsters were flying between LA, NY, London, Paris and Milan wearing thousand dollar fr

This reminds me of a then-current idiom that fell out of circulation “the beautiful people.” Back in the 60s everyone knew who The Beautiful People were - models, heirs & heiresses, pop stars at the very top - Beatles, Rolling Stones and their wives/girlfriends - film directors & producers, royalty, members of Andy Warhol’s Factory, publishers, fashion editors & designers, media moguls, hotel owners, industrial magnates, tv and movie stars. The Beatles song “Baby You’re a Rich Man” includes the phrase “How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?” It’s said that Lennon was writing about himself. On the one hand, he believed he was working class (tho he never was - he was middle class. The British class system bothered him), on the other hand Lennon liked traveling around the world first class, wearing cool, expensive clothes, setting fashion trends, getting any drug or woman he wanted. When the Beatles started out they cheekily tweaked the royals and upper classes. By the end of the 1960s, they were the upper class. They owned fabulous homes, had the latest technology, drew crowds on red carpets outside the chicest clubs & fanciest restaurants.

I’m not sure a young person today could picture that world of the jet set and the beautiful people…an instantly recognized group of international globe trotters and entertainers. The world isn’t the same anymore. Now it’s all cribs and tacky jewelry, plastic surgery, Hampton homes that all look alike, auto tune and baby voiced grown women. And talentless children of famous people

I’m so elated that Manson and Atkins are dead and separated from God/heaven.

Thanks OP. I stayed up way too late watching this last night. One of the revelations to me at least, was that Sharon was planning to divorce Polanski.

Sharon maternal instincts were in high gear. She was not going to tolerate Roman’s playboy antics . She did love him though.

According to the "You Must Remember This" podcast, Tate found BDSM distasteful and it was the main reason they split-up.

Great post r95. I’ve forgotten about that phrase “beautiful people”

I think it's the tiniest world sometimes. Just today I was reliving being 16 and went into Rick James and Teena Marie songs,but then I ended up with how Jimmy Ruffin got him into pimping and it was Jimmy being a friend of Jay Sebring.I really liked Rick James when I was young,

R99 That podcast was so good.

Do any of you know if there is truth to the Jimmy Ruffin pimping with Rick James? I find the Sebring connection a bit odd/contrived and probably untrue.

I've always thought it curious that the Folger family - who presumably have/had extensive resources - have been invisible since the murders happened. I don't think I have ever heard any of them speak in an interview or read about them in an article. They haven't shown up at any of the probation hearings. Her mother is mentioned briefly in Helter Skelter - but did she have brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews? Where are they now?

I've always suspected they knew Abby's story was more sordid than whatever got out to the public.

R104,the Folger family quietly fought to keep killers locked up. They used their money and influence secretly.

R95 I don’t think that’s an idiom. More likely an epithet, sobriquet or moniker.

[quote]Speaking of Truth, here's Jay Sebring, along with his imposters, in a 1963 episode of To Tell the Truth.

Some twisted programmer at the Game Show Network scheduled this episode (without fanfare) exactly 34 years after the murders took place (give or take about 15 minutes). The murders occurred just after midnight on Saturday, 8/9/69; GSN aired the TTTT episode at midnight 8/9/03.

It was unsettling to say the least.

R93 There was a great article in Vanity Fair (years ago when it was a quality publication) by Dominic Dunne about the impact in LA, especially in the Hollywood Hills, of the Cielo Drive murders.

I’ll see if I can find it - it was one of Dunne’s better articles.

Bingo, R93. Settling down for a read of it myself.

Sydney in lockdown in winter - plenty of reading time!

The link is too long but if you Google “Dominic Dunne Vanity Fair Sharon Tate” it should be the top result.

The Beautiful People have been forgotten because there have since been many songs, movies and books with Beautiful People in the title and they’re not talking about 60s & 70s people. I think maybe glam rock knocked the beautiful people out of the pages of history by stealing the focus of hair, makeup and clothes and makin* it something different.

Some of the Beautiful People cashed in with books - Princess Luciana Pignatelli produce Pd The Beautiful People Beauty Book and there was a Beautiful People Diet Book (if anyone was someone, they came out with a diet book back then). The beauty book is mainly made up of rich, beautiful people posing for fashion photos

[R108], I bet it's available online. If it's not too extortionately priced I'll buy it and bring it to a local library and ask if they'd like to have it for their collection of recent periodicals. I checked out a hard copy of Durrell's 'Alexandra Quartet' when I lived in San Frandisco in October 1982, and moved back to Seattle in December without returning it. When I visited the following March I dropped it off at the Civic Center Library's front desk, expecting bells and whistles and 'STOP THAT THIEF FROM LEAVING THE BUILDING!' My boyfriend told me they were prolly overjoyed to see it back in circulation.

It makes me wonder what to do with my rare books. I'd rather see them go to good use at a college library rather get scooped up for a song at some garage sale.

Sharon Tate’s mom Doris,helped Dominique Dunne’s parents after Dominique was murdered . Doris and Lenny Dunne became close .

R92, whether or not people here appreciate the content of your scribes, I will admit that I find you to be an excellent writer, & enjoy your storytelling skills , as they’re primo!

For realz. No snark.

Link to the vanity fair article

[quote] Is there anybody who was actually there (in the LA area) when this happened?

R93 - yes, there were many people there when it happened. One of them was Vince Bugliosi who wrote the most famous book about the Tate/LaBianca murders. Anyone with any interest in these cases should have already read this book, which answers all of your questions.

If anyone's interested, here's the notorious, full-of-bullshit Time Magazine article published two weeks after the murders.

I still don’t know how Sharon Tate’s sister could have a civil conversation with Roman Polanski, the man who so brutally murdered her sister.

Sheesh, that Times article was ridiculous.

r116 "Sharon's body was found nude, not clad in bikini pants and a bra as had first been reported. Sebring was wearing only the torn remnants of a pair of boxer shorts. One of Miss Tate's breasts had been cut off, apparently as a result of indiscriminate slashing. She was nine months pregnant, and there was an X cut on her stomach. What appeared to be the bloody handle of a paring knife was found next to her leg, the blade broken off. Sebring had been sexually mutilated, and his body also bore X marks."

Welp, crime scene photos show otherwise.

R116, is willfully ignorant on this case

That times article was salacious lies

Here it is. Read to your hearts content R93. Helter Skelter.

PS - the book gives the height and weight of just about everybody. Not just victims, but people like the guys in Straight Satans, Manson, Beausoleil. The weights are a shocker. I don’t think you could find people today who weigh the same in the United States.

PSS - I was at a Paul McCartney concert years ago and it may have been the first time he played Helter Skelter in the US. People were a little disconcerted and some soft “oohs,” were heard, sounding a little….. ouchy. But after the first few chords and people saying to themselves “Wow, really? This one?” They seemed to think that we all had to put that behind us. It’s McCartney’s song, not Manson’s, and he’s taking it back. Good for him.

Bump

This was good. My God, his nephew is hot.

I remember that SNL sketch. It was pretty insane. Harry Shearer is a composer, and Bill Murray, Gilda Radner and Garrett Morris are actors, and they're putting on a workshop production for possible backers. The party is being thrown by Bea Arthur. The show is a musical about Jay Sebring. Bill Murray plays Jay, and Manson is played by Garrett Morris. I suspect in a nod to the fact that a black guy always plays Judas in JC Superstar. The songs are very typical Andrew Lloyd Webber sounding songs- the play sounds awful. There's a giant sink in the middle of the stage. The final song is about Jay cutting hair, and the final word of the song is hair. Bea Arthur says something like "Hopefully this WILL be the next Hair!" The sketch is at about 44:19 in the below link.

Anyway, it made me realize that all that stuff out there about the Mason killings must be tough on the family. Not sure about some of the assertions, like saying Sharon was about to divorce Roman to be with Jay, but there's been so much negative misinformation about Jay it doesn't really matter, I guess.

[quote]I’m not sure a young person today could picture that world of the jet set and the beautiful people…an instantly recognized group of international globe trotters and entertainers. The world isn’t the same anymore. Now it’s all cribs and tacky jewelry, plastic surgery, Hampton homes that all look alike, auto tune and baby voiced grown women. And talentless children of famous people

Yeah, because Tate really was Laurence Olivier's female counterpart, Abigail Folger was far classier than any heiress we have today and how the Beatles became saturated with their own wealth is completely dissimilar from One Direction playing golf.

This really is an excellent example of rose-tinted glasses, if not "in my day" syndrome.

When it comes to the Manson Family, the folks on this blog are the absolute pros. Here are the links on it related to Sebring, including the documentary. Be sure to check the comments, where the readers weigh in. This is one of the most impressive blogs I've ever seen. They seem to know EVERYTHING about these crimes, and the subsequent lives of all the people who were involved, even merely tangentially, including all the folks who've investigated and written about them:

^The first post on that blog begins with the "proprietor" of the blog meeting, by accident, in 1985, Jay Sebring's nephew (who made this new documentary)...

I'm curious now- WAS Sebring into kinky stuff? Or was that completely made up, as the doc seems to suggest?

A comment on that Manson Blog link above indicates that Sebring was known at some kind of sex club in LA, but no other information is provided. They point out that while S&M is a big "industry" nowadays, back in '69 it was a very secretive, downlow, kind of thing, indulged in and known about by very few people.

^It seems obvious also that Sebring was selling drugs in a big way, and this is either ignored or discounted by the nephew's film, and the commenters on that blog point out that all the stuff that his family would not want brought out in the film is effectively left out of it. Nonetheless, the readers there indicate that they thought it was a pretty interesting film.

You probably heard the story how Steve McQueen was supposed to be at the Tate residence the night she and friends including Sebring were murdered but decided to meet up with some nobody starlet that had no issues fucking a married man. Our favorite gay fan fiction author Charles Higham, decided to embellish this story claiming that McQueen and Sebring had a gay relationship and the night of the murders where set to do a threesome with Sharon Tate. He was also supposed to be McQueen's drug dealer as well, but that I can believe. Maybe McQueen and Sebring did have a thing going, but Charles Higham seems to believe, like many DL'ers, that all good looking actors and Hollywood players like Sebring are either gay or bi and more active than anyone can imagine.

Read that blog up there, HUNDREDS of celebrities were SUPPOSED to be at 10050 Cielo Drive that night, LOL. Fortunately for all of them, something came up at the last minute and they ALL had to cancel.

There are photos on that blog article of Sebring and Sharon Tate in each other's arms, in bathing suits, taken in the afternoon the same day of the killings. Sebring doesn't appear to be even slightly gay in those (stolen) photographs, and the general consensus among those who have studied these crimes (obsessively and in unbelievable detail) is that Sebring and Tate were still fucking or had very recently renewed their relationship, that Tate had recently discussed a divorce from Polanski with her attorney (this is documented), and that Tate was fully knowledgeable about, and inured to the fact that Polanski was fucking every woman he could get his hands on at the time. She caught him picking them up numerous times.

Lucy was going to be there that night, but Gary talked her out of it.

I'm always wary of going down the "Manson victims were drug dealers" stuff because it is what people who proclaim Manson to be innocent say. That somehow, some of the victims brought it on themselves. I hate that shit.

The gist of that Manson blog above, which has been in business for about 15 years, is that the "Helter Skelter" 'motive' focused on by Bugliosi was completely beside the point, and cooked up by Bug himself just to create a plausible story for a jury. The other competing theories were that it was some kind of a revenge drug deal hit (or an attempt to steal a huge quantity of MDA which had arrived in LA from Canada within a day or so of the Tate murders); or that it was some kind of a political crime, engineered by the CIA (who else?), to discredit the hippie counterculture. Sounds deranged, I know, but there are LOTS of interesting connections between the Family, Manson, and folks who were pretty obviously involved in the spy gambit in the US. The folks on that blog have crawled over the sprawling mass of evidence and crackpot theories, and seem to have concluded that the actual motive for the murders seems effectively unsolvable, and maybe is just insanely incoherent and senseless. Sebring did have paid bodyguards, which your average celebrity hairdresser has no need for. And he was reputed to be dealing MDA, for Steve McQueen as noted above, and others. There is a photo of an afternoon party at Cass Eliot's house, with Clapton, David Crosby and Joni Mitchell in it, along with one Pic Dawson, who was known to be a drug dealer associated closely with Manson and involved in the MDA business. Dawson was Eliot's boyfriend for a time.

Why I Never Would Have Gone To Sebring’s Party That Infamous Night

The first time we ever took a family vacation was in 1969 when I was eight years old, and we went to Los Angeles. I remember we watched the moon landing there. We came home and then the Manson murders happened a couple of weeks later and my mom flipped the fuck out and said we were never going to go to California on vacation ever again. We did, of course.

[quote]She accepted Polanski's fooling around but when he slept with Michelle Phillips, who was a close friend, she was tired of the humiliation.

How ironic that Michelle is now growing old, cooped with with crazy jesus freak daughter. Karma indeed!

R126, that blog is unfortunately like most of the other obsessive forums and blogs online: full of implausible stories and their own personal lingo, complete with insider insults about other bloggers that they are in a perpetual feud with.

This photo says "they're definitely fucking" to you, r133? I don't see any chemistry between them at all.

Lassie was suppose to be at Tate's house that night too, but she was busy

I hate when people make documentaries about themselves or family members. They're almost always bad.

Jay came across as a bi leaning towards gay pocket bottom. Back in the day I’d gladly wrest him over the bed and fuck the living daylights out of him.

The difference between a straight male hairdresser and a gay one?

Two drinks.

The parrot from Baretta was invited to the Tate house that night too.

Dennis Hopper and Peter Tork both confirmed the outlandish public rape of the drug dealer that supposedly took place in Cass Elliot's backyard. They made it sound like a bunch of rock royalty was sitting around in folding chairs, passing joints and watching this guy who was tied to a tree get assfucked by a three other guys. I can't imagine this happening, at least like that. But I believe that B-actress/escort Nancy Bacon who wrote that Jay Sebring was one fetish-infested twisted fuck. That night she described with him in "Legends and Lipstick" was some creepy devil-worship shit. I think Sharon knew about Jay's twisted side and maybe even experienced a little of it. I doubt she was interested in him sexually.

More on Jay's kinky devil worshipping ways please

His death reminds me of the fear I have of a crazy person associated with the host showing up and starting shit.

Here is Sharon talking about Jay, 33 at the time, dating a 15 year old girl:

"I said, "I'm pretty sure you were engaged to someone the last time I saw you." "With Jay Sebring," was [Sharon's] answer. (Mr. Sebring is 33. He's a Hollywood hairdresser who get paid 15 pounds for a haircut.) "Now it is finished. He was trying to dominate me too much. When I was filming a nude scene in 'The Vampire Killers' he telephoned me and tried to dispute it.

"However, we have stayed friends. I called him the other day to find out how he was doing. He told me that now he was going out with a 15 year old girl. I found that totally immature. I told Jay he should be ashamed--a 15 year old! When I was 15 I was still looking for red and white striped flannel nightgowns. I was dead scared of men. Jay told me, 'But she's very much advanced for her age. She knows just about everything.' "

Excerpts from Nancy Bacon's scary tryst with Sebring here, starting at R352

I've always thought Sebring was sexy

bump

In what universe would Jay Sebring be considered sexy? And I like short guys.

Went in a deep dive of caretaker William Garretson, rent boy to Rudi Altobelli. Sad story. Kid from Ohio. Very slim, slight kid with slightly crossed eyes. Father indicted for being a deadbeat dad. Was on wrestling team, like many small gay boys. Mother said he left home one day without saying anything to her. Left a note and took off to hitchhike to CA with $1.85 in his pocket. Sounds like he hustled when he got to CA. There’s a chunk of several months missing from when he leftOH til he met old queen Altobelli, a guy with mob ties, and was hired as caretaker. Told detectives he “met Altobelli on…….in California. “ Was he about to say “on Sunset Strip” and stopped himself? Then says Altobelli picked him up hitchhiking and offered him caretaker job “because he said his dogs liked me.” Hmm. How did altobelli know the dogs liked Billy if he’d just met them?

Billy claimed to be an innocent when it came to the Hollywood lifestyle but was busted for weed, let guys use the cottage for sex with their “girlfriends” in exchange for beer and liquor and claimed to have been severely hung over in a death sleep on August 8 until he woke up in the evening & hitched to Sunset Strip to get a TV dinner, a pack of smokes and a Pepsi. There were color photographs of Bill on the property taken by Rudi Altobelli. Kind of unusual. My boss never took pics of me posing in front of a swimming pool.

Detectives quickly realized Bill had lucked out by fallen off the turnip truck onto the grounds of a mansion in the Hollywood Hills. Bill’s life away from Rudi consisted of hitching, drinking and smoking weed & cigarettes when left to his own devices. Not a very ambitious guy.

Over the years he changed his story about what he saw and heard that night. He left Hollywood for OH a week or two later but we don’t know where he stayed during that time. After he arrived home he married 3 times.Got lost in alcohol. Later on in life he was conned by a woman who convinced him she was the child of Polanski and Tate, cut out of Tate’s stomach and put in an orphanage. He died of cancer in 2016, leaving no survivors. His only child died after as an infant 3 heart surgeries.

A sad little guy. Seemed on the spectrum.

Interesting r154. Thanks for posting

In the arrest transcripts for Garretson, they ask him if he's gay. He denies it. They then ask him if he ever had any kind of sex with another man. He begrudgingly admits that he has. He said he was at a party and someone offered him pot, which rendered him helpless, apparently. I think the story was that some guy went down on him while he was sleeping.

Mmmm Hmmm...

This whole mess must have thrown a big wrench into Miss Altobelli's trade game.