Who was the Bigger Bitter Pain in the Ass - Lucille Ball or Lauren Bacall?

This should've been a poll.

Ballsy Betty Bacall hands down. Lucy was bitter and could be a pain in the ass because she was unhappy. Bacall made it an art form and relished in becoming an expert.

I wish I had downloaded a video from YouTube before it was removed. About a year before Bacall's death, she is seen walking to a funeral, heavily relying on a cane and someone supporting her. There is a little boy, about 7, standing outside the funeral home minding his own business. Bacall is jaywalking across the street between two cars and starts yelling at the kid to get out of her way and poking her cane at him.

Betty was a good (platonic) friend of Lena Horne's - birds of a feather?

I'm sorry, but my bias doesn't allow Lucille to be remembered as bitter or a bitch. She still gives me too much joy to this day.

She did come across in interviews as dour, emotionally needy and if not humorless then at least with an unusual sense of humor—but her television show is such a joy, and the ones that followed I Love Lucy were still pretty fun. And her roles in early movies like Stage Door are fun to watch, too.

I love Lucy!

The tone of her memoir "Love, Lucy" paints her as more reflective, grateful and optimistic than bitter.

Her young life was really fucked up. It's no wonder she was such a serious person. Her family fell apart after her little brother was given a gun for his birthday, accidentally paralyzed a neighbor boy and the Ball family was sued into bankruptcy. Then at age 19, Lucille got a mysterious sudden illness (I speculate it was Lyme disease) that rendered her paralyzed from the waist down. It was diagnosed as arthritis, but she was given experimental treatment with "horse shots" (penicillin? Antibiotics were not used on human beings at the time.) and recovered her ability to walk. She became a go-to dancer in Hollywood. The woman really fought for her place on camera.

Bacall was a nasty cunt to just about anybody. Ball was serious and all business, but I don't think she went out of her way to be an asshole.

[quote]Then at age 19, Lucille got a mysterious sudden illness (I speculate it was Lyme disease) that rendered her paralyzed from the waist down.

I speculate it was an abortion.

[quote]but I don't think she went out of her way to be an asshole.

There were times. Flight attendants have said that she wouldn't speak to them. Gary had to do all the ordering because Lucy wouldn't address the help.

[quote]She became a go-to dancer in Hollywood.

I used to chunk quaters at her at the Whiskey on Sunset.

If the love of your life kept bringing you heartache and social diseases, it might make you a little jaded. I'd don't know what Bacall's damage was.

Both of Bacall's husbands were mean drunks.

The biggest L.B. pain in the ass was Mr. Mayer.

[quote]Both of Bacall's husbands were mean drunks.

Who had big dicks which Miss Betty didn't complain about one bit.

When Blackglama sent a car to pick up Bacall for her photo shoot, she was pissed that it wasn’t a limousine. It was a station wagon. “Is THIS how you treat a legend?”, she allegedly exclaimed. Ball was nothing but a professional for her session.

[quote]Then at age 19, Lucille got a mysterious sudden illness (I speculate it was Lyme disease) that rendered her paralyzed from the waist down.

I speculate it was an abortion.

I speculate VD

I don't think she was ever a "go-to dancer", r4. She was certainly a graceful social dancer and was capable of doing uncomplicated dance routines, but I don't think it was ever a case of "We need another dancer, let's get Lucille!". I don't begrudge Betty for that at all, r13. After that, they were always picked up in a limo.

Ball never had FLAVVAH

I think Lucille was a meaner drunk

When the whole point of the ad campaign is "what becomes a legend most", you kind of expect them to start with the car.

Who cares? Legends they unarguably were.

R15 Yes, she was a go-to dancer during her film career. When she worked for RKO Studios Films for over a decade, she was regularly cast as a chorus girl because she was known to be a professional and capable actor and dancer, if not a star. She was cast in several musicals with Fred and Ginger, and Ginger Rogers (who was a distant cousin), known for dancing, was her best friend and frequent costar. She was never considered a major star but she was a go-to actress for small roles that involved dancing. Which is pretty remarkable given that she was once paralyzed and always had leg stiffness after that time.

And for all the rumors about Lucille having been a monster on set and in business, it says a lot that she was married to her onscreen husband and she divorced him, not the other way around, and both always said they loved one another; her costar Vivian Vance was rumored to have hated her and they were not only very close friends for the rest of their lives, but Lucille regularly coerced Vivian to costar on her shows that followed. I've only read quotes from people who worked with her on Lucy and anything else saying that Lucille was unusually professional, and that that is where her demanding quality came from: she wanted to do a damned good job and wanted the finished product to be the best it could be, and so she had little patience for actors who didn't know their lines or couldn't deliver them. Even her daughter, who describes her lovingly but also says she was a workaholic and extremely regimented, has said she respects her mother's work ethic and was surprised when she began acting by how many actors seem not to take the work seriously the way her mother did.

Lucille reportedly rehearsed ad nauseam so that she was always prepared to get the scenes done in a single take if other people kept up their end of the bargain.

And while that makes Lucille sound like a humorless jerk, she did have a sense of humor and could laugh at herself. There are clips of minor bloopers from I Love Lucy in which she and other people make mistakes and she chuckles, sometimes turns away from the camera for a moment, and then carries on.

It's also interesting that Lucille began as a contract player with RKO Pictures, stuck with them/they kept her until she left to do her show, and then she ultimately bought RKO and turned it into Desilu. So for someone known to be a "bitter bitch," she was very loyal. She employed many of her feature film costars in I Love Lucy, she employed I Love Lucy and other favorite costars in her later shows, and she brought a lot of writers and other crew from Lucy to her later shows. She basically operated like family throughout her career.

I'd be fucking plucked if someone sent a fucking STATION WAGON instead of a limo for my photo shoot. Like Blackglama couldn't afford it? What? That's not being a cunt, that is just how things should be (or not in this case...seriously, a fucking station wagon?)

What is this Lucille shit? She was always referred to as Lucy.

R22 Her character was Lucy. The woman went by Lucille.

[quote]quaters

Oh, hell no.

I'd still argue that this resume includes some, but not all that much dancing, r20.

R20 is Lucille Ball's version of Streisand's "charlie"

Betty was perturbed that the station wagon was sent to her apt at W72nd, while the limo went to 300 West End Ave to pick up Lena!

I think it depended on the day of the week, really.

How is it possible we have yet to hear from DL Icon Vivian Vance?

I have sufficient.

Well, r14, it did take Lucy and Desi a long time to conceive. She didn’t have a successful to-term pregnancy until she was 39. Julia Roberts as well because Liam Nelson allegedly gave Julia some nasty STD when they were dating and she didn’t find out about it until after they broke up. She had to go to a specialist like Lucy did.

r30 Liam Nelson? Do you mean Liam Dunn?

At last I didn't shill cat food!

Right, Lucille. Because this is a much classier thing to shill for!

Ba all’s autobiography is pretty interesting. I found it fairly candid in she admits Robards told her he didn’t want to marry her, but she got pregnant and that was that.

I enjoyed Bacall's autobiography so much that it was a huge disappointment to discover what a total bitch she actually was.

[quote] At last I didn't shill cat food!

No, you shilled cigarettes.

“You see how easy it is to keep a man happy? Just give him a carton of Philip Morris cigarettes.”

Lucille had a great voice to sell cigarettes. I totally buy her as a loyal user of the product.

Was that bell hop yelling for Philip Morris a boy or girl? It’s strangely unisex.

R38 Eunuch munchkinette. They were a thing in the 1950s thanks to all the mothers who smoked while pregnant.

When I first moved to NYC, I was surprised to meet several people who personally experienced Bacall’s gruff and mean behavior.

1. A colleague who once owned his own livery service was hired to drive her to Lincoln Center. He asked her politely if she was meant to be dropped at the stage entrance or the main entrance. A short while later a call came through to him on the car phone (remember those?). A voice informed him “Miss Bacall does not want you to speak to her”. The gentleman who told me this story he hit the brakes hard and left her somewhere along 2nd Avenue. She protested when he stopped the vehicle and said she would have him fired, so he said he pointed his finger and said “I own this car, I own this business. Get out!”

2. An acquaintance, a famous caterer, elected to deliver her meal personally. He knocked on her stage door for a long while until an assistant wandered by and opened the door for him. Bacall glared at him as he set out her meal (a special salad). She growled “you’re late”. When he attended to reply “I’m sorry Miss Bacall but I was outside knocking to get in” she cut him off and “No! You don’t GET to apologize! You don’t GET to be sorry! You don’t GET to speak to ME!”

3. A really successful set designer reported that, during a wardrobe fitting, Bacall tried on two pair of very expensive shoes. She smiled and said to the stylist “honey, send a pair of these in each color to my apartment”. The stylist was confused, and later asked how to invoice their cost. She was told, with a sigh and a shrug, the production budget would have to cover it, and they expected that to happen with her.

R40, #! reminds me of the story when opera diva Kathleen Battle did almost exactly the same thing.

Lauren's autobiography was obviously written to put her in a positive light. She also flaunted her affair with Tony Franciosa, dissing Shelley Winters, mocking her with the fact that she was fucking her husband. What a cunt. I am sure that she didn't get too much sympathy when she lost that Oscar to Juliette Binoche.

Lucy on Cavett, not too bratty. She tells the Grape Lady story.

I imagine with Lucy it was somewhat unpredictable as to what her mood would be on encountering her. With Bacall, you just knew to expect the worst.

WHAT Lauren Bacall autobiography? She's written THREE.

Lucille Ball may very well have appeared in a few Fred & Ginger films but she never danced in any of them.

Lauren Bacall was a miserable seething cunt. Somewhere along the way, she gave up her humanity and her decency. The anecdotes offered above accurately describe how she treated people. Daily. No matter now small the conflict, Lauren Bacall NEVER rose above it.

For many years, it was widely accepted that the two most difficult people in the theater were Yul Brynner and Lauren Bacall. Neither was ever easy. But Yul Brynner made money for everyone involved.

Bitches! Who says Lucy can't dance???

Yay!

[quote]A really successful set designer reported that, during a wardrobe fitting...

Why was a set designer at a wardrobe fitting?

[quote]I'd still argue that this resume includes some, but not all that much dancing,

Hold my whisky and cigarette.

I need to show R25 a little something.

[quote] Flight attendants have said that she wouldn't speak to them. Gary had to do all the ordering because Lucy wouldn't address the help.

I sort of understand this for people at a certain level. As long as they aren't going out of their way to hiss or scowl. When you're THAT famous, any conversation could turn into an exhausting "I loved you so much my mother loves you" sort of thing.

r52 That time we did the Charleston was the absolute tops!

[quote]That time we did the Charleston was the absolute tops!

Marcia, regardless of what Desi told you

What the two of you did was not actually the Charleston

[quote] 1. A colleague who once owned his own livery service was hired to drive her to Lincoln Center. He asked her politely if she was meant to be dropped at the stage entrance or the main entrance. A short while later a call came through to him on the car phone (remember those?). A voice informed him “Miss Bacall does not want you to speak to her”. The gentleman who told me this story he hit the brakes hard and left her somewhere along 2nd Avenue. She protested when he stopped the vehicle and said she would have him fired, so he said he pointed his finger and said “I own this car, I own this business. Get out!”

This story doesn't track. First- if this was the time when car phones were a big deal, then what did Bacall call her rep on? And how did he not hear her making said call?

[quote]For many years, it was widely accepted that the two most difficult people in the theater were Yul Brynner and Lauren Bacall.

What, no Streisand?

And what about Bacall AND Streisand?

Streisand didn't stay in theater long enough to be considered.

Streisand reportedly played a lesbian in the Off-Broadway play "Driftwood" in 1959

which also starred a then-unknown Joan Rivers

But no, Streisand was never a big star of the "legitimate theatre"

R56 Not sure, yet I remember now the vehicle had a partition, because he told me he braked the vehicle hard and almost put her up against the partition. He was a tough little guy with dyed hair. This was near 1999-2002.

Intimates most usually referred to Lucy as "Lucille" in her circles, with the "Lucy" name more reserved for her TV-show characters and news stories in the media.

Lauren was more so frequently referenced regularly as that TV coffee comercial cnut.

Yeah, they both answered to "Cunt"

Girls! Girls! You're BOTH cunts!

R59 Joan once said that she and Barbra played lesbians and they had an on-stage kiss. Joan’s joke was that Barbra “was all tongue.” I still miss Joan.

[quote] For many years, it was widely accepted that the two most difficult people in the theater were Yul Brynner and Lauren Bacall.

What about me, bitches?

If you want to know what Bacall was like, read PIECE OF WORK, a novel by Laura Zigman. She had to accompany psycho bitch Betty on some promotional tour.

[italic] It isn't until her husband is laid off from his job and she's forced to go back to work and resurrect screen legend Mary Ford's career that Julia realizes how very much she prefers an actual child to a formerly famous client. "For example, her child doesn't steal ten-thousand-dollar leather coats from photo shoots. Nor does he require a constant, fresh supply of a soda that is no longer in production. He doesn't curse at Julia, pronounce her name "Einstein" with a thick layer of disdainful irony, or incessantly poke at her with his index finger while reciting odd variations on childlike rhymes like a psych patient on day pass….

R59, have you every heard of FUNNY GIRL? True, Streisand didn't stay in the theater for long, but Funny Girl was one of the biggest Broadway musicals of the 1960s. Forget this Driftwood shit, Joan.

[quote]Then at age 19, Lucille got a mysterious sudden illness (I speculate it was Lyme disease) that rendered her paralyzed from the waist down. It was diagnosed as arthritis, but she was given experimental treatment with "horse shots" (penicillin? Antibiotics were not used on human beings at the time.) and recovered her ability to walk.

It was "horse serum" apparently, and I've found a lot of old medical articles that refer to anti-pneumococcal, anti-meningococcal, anti-Shigella etc. horse serums. They apparently also used injectable gold and gold salts, or even the infamous hydrochloroquine for RA.

There's a huge excerpt from her book here at this blog. Apparently the Lucy estate complained when someone said Lucy had RA, even though Lucy herself wrote about it. Very weird.

I saw Bacall in an ice cream store on the UWS. She got very angry when they told her they didn't have to- go bags for her ice cream cone.

"Ginger Rogers was a good friend of Lucille Ball for many years, until Ball’s death in 1989. The two did not appear to share political views (Rogers was a conservative Republican), but enjoyed each other's company."

“ enjoyed each other's company."

ie, muff divers

This was an interesting interview with a lady who once styled Lauren's hair

Shouldn’t the real question be:

Who’s breath smelled the most of old cigarettes, dead fish and rotten teeth....Lucy or Lauren? Or maybe Bette.

A friend was store manager for a high-end luxury goods concern where Bacall was a regular customer. She once brought in a product for repair and my friend took care of the transaction, then arranged to hand-deliver the product when the repair was completed. Bacall opened her door, grabbed the package and closed the door in my friend's face without saying a word. It was odd because Bacall knew my friend by name, and had nothing but pleasant interactions until that day.

There sure are a lot of people who "had a friend that interacted with Lauren Bacall."

Yeah, because I did Jan. R77

Google : CUNT

Do you mean LAUREN BACALL?

[quote] There sure are a lot of people who "had a friend that interacted with Lauren Bacall."

There sure are a lot of DLers who are also New Yorkers, which Bacall also was for decades, so it's not all that unusual that a few would have interacted with her or had friends who did. She wasn't Garbo, she was out and about.

"charlie" is a New Yorker and knows every celebrity in the city (he also know which ones are gay because tell told him). Perhaps he can jump in and tell us HIS Bacall story. I'll be she was sweet and polite to him. charlie always brings the best out in his celebrity friends!

I wonder why Robards divorced Bacall…

R82, Robards was severely alcoholic, a big reason the marriage was doomed.

[quote]"charlie" is a New Yorker

AND a fragrance that's here to-day.

R84, you're confusing Charlie with charlie:

Ball had to get things right on the first take because her show was filmed live in front of an audience. If they did retakes, they would have been expensive and shooting out of sequence would have been a little disorienting considering how it was done.

Her preparation, professionalism, etc. are done to death as if she was only one like this. She kept the same writers, etc. because she needed the familiarity and didn't want to stray much from her patented schtick. She didn't have Desi to help make decisions and Wildcat probably convinced here that audiences wanted Lucy schtick rather than Lucy the actress. Many of her contemporaries were involved in their shows long before she was--Loretta Young (she of the swear jar), Donna Reed, Ann Sothern and plenty of male performers. The old B-picture performers knew how to hit their marks and understand a set because they had had no choice if they wanted to stick around. They couldn't be divas. The effort to canonize Lucy neglects how many contemporaries had the work same habits but often could operate more autonomously and try new things. She was a B-movie actress who got lucky much as Milton Berle had been a failure in radio and a forgettable in vaudeville only to be white hot for awhile in television. Desilu made money under her because it became a rental lot and would have been a lot less valuable to Paramount when it sold if it hadn't had some new series at the end, none of which had much to do with Lucy. By the end of her shows, she bullied guest stars and confined the writers to a narrow approach to character and situation.

Bacall may have been a garden variety snob and diva, but no one has tries to make her into any kind of godess.

[quote]R86 She was a B-movie actress who got lucky much as Milton Berle had been a failure in radio and a forgettable in vaudeville only to be white hot for awhile in television.

Somewhat OT, but this suddenly makes me wonder if there are any existing pics of Berle’s legendary schlong.

R86, posting the same long speech in two threads guarantees no one will read it.

[quote] "Liam Nelson? Do you mean Liam Dunn?"

No, R31. Leah Dunham.

R51 My guess is that the production designer also designed the costumes (which is sometimes the case).

Lauren Bacall ruined the Upper West Side for Lucy. I remember a story from someone who was riding across Central Park with Lucy to Lucie's apartment. Lucy was not pleased to be going to the Upper West Side and when asked why replied, "It's so... Lauren Bacall."

r90, and my guess is the costume designer told the set designer what happened in the fitting. They do talk to each other you, know.