How was Linda Lavin cast in Alice?

Her ability to sing, of course.

Her steel-tight snatch

She used to be sad, she used to be shy.

I’ve been watching season 5 of Alice. It’s like comfort food to me.

When her son was cast he had BDF.

So of course they had to cast a BIG CUNT as his mother

It's the soothing lilt of her voice that sealed the deal.

The real question is why wasn't there a counterpart for Kris Kristofferson's character in the TV series?

If Linda Lavin had had blonde hair, she would've looked like Edie Falco (Carmela Soprano).

It’s my understanding that Bonnie Franklin had first dibs on either the Alice or One Day at a Time property.

It was a different place and time. "Cagney and Lacey" came along in the early '80s.

Cagney & Lacey had a huge lesbian following.

Linda was an acclaimed, Tony nominated rising Broadway star when Hollywood took notice and started casting her in guest appearances on TV shows.

The producers of Rhoda loved her appearance so much that they considered making her a regular (A Phyllis Lindstrom type nemesis to Rhoda) but eventually vetoed the idea because they didn't want the make the show Mary Tyler Moore part 2. She was then cast on Barney Miller and again, the producers loved her appearances that they wanted to make her a semi regular at the time CBS lured her away to do Alice.

I wouldn't say Linda is mediocre. Five Tony nominations, winning one. A steady career in TV for the last forty plus years. A steady gig on the nightclub circuit. We should all be so mediocre.

And sorry, but she can sing.

R11- It probably helped that Sharon Gless and Tyne Daly were LESBIANS.

[quote] Alice Doesn’t Live Hare Anymore.

Oh, dear, Doc!

R12 = Linda, killing time

I fucking love Jolene Hunnicutt and Vera Louise Gorman.

Is Alice streaming somewhere? I can't find it and would like to see it.

Amazon.com $19.99 for each season.

Recent viewings have shown it has not aged well. Loud, juvenile and repetitive. Did they ever pick up the movie plot line of her wanting to be a lounge singer? Seems like she's always just slinging hash and dispensing simpleminded wisdom.

At her age, I’m sure she’s streaming something, r17.

[quote] Is Alice streaming somewhere? I can't find it and would like to see it.

It's on The Pirate Bay and other torrent sites.

[quote]Did they ever pick up the movie plot line of her wanting to be a lounge singer?

Uh, yeah, in all nine seasons.

The show ends with her getting a singing job and leaving the diner.

R9 I’ve always wondered how “Alice” could have been worse. Bonnie Franklin in the lead fits the bill.

“ Damn it, Mel” followed by a slap.

Stream it on Amazon video $1.99 an episode.

She knew where their loved ones lived and they feared for their safety, so Linda got the part.

The other question is why was Vera’s character changed between the movie and tv series?

You've Got Possibilities

Lavin was a "push" star, so many existed in the 70s. Examples included, "Richard "Mr Valerie Harper" Schaal," Barrie Youngfellow, Barbara Barrie, Ellen Travolta, and Doris Roberts. Some like Roberts eventually found a show, (Jerry Van Dyke, also did, but he was more of a "push" 60s star).

Linda was only an average singer. Yes she could sing in tune but that was it. She was not great, and the fact the other characters always had to say how phenomenal she was, is a dead indicator of that. Nell Carter was another one, who was supposedly a "great" singer. She wasn't bad but merely average.

Alice is a comedy whilst the film was not. Sort of like "What's Happenin'" vs it's movie "Coolie High" which means some changes are needed.

Cooley, not Coolie.

I loved the show. At least until Polly left. It truly is true comfort food tv. Without looking it up, I think Lavin got all her Tony nominations AFTER the show ended. But I remember her many guest star appearances on tv shows which bolstered her exposure. I think Ellen had turned it down because she was riding high after her Oscar win with her film and Broadway career. It’s too bad Lavin was such a diva cunt. Polly should’ve stayed until the end. And Linda ran her out the door. One Emmy nomination in 9 years on a hit show for Lavin is pretty pathetic. But she was effective and entertaining on Alice.

Nell was merely average? You are out of your fucking mind.

Nell Carter would have made a very poor Alice. And how would they have explained her white kid?

Julianne Moore was an even odder choice but she won the Oscar.

Nell Carter *could* sing.

Linda Lavin's voice was all in the lower register.

There are some good episodes of Alice. I wouldn't bother watching Alice episodes where Polly Holliday (original Flo) is gone.

I doubt Polly would have stayed for nine seasons. Flo was a huge breakout character that they were going to spin her off into her own show regardless of whether she got along with Lavin or not.

As for Lavin being difficult, Polly is no walk in the park either. Plenty of stories have been posted on here from people who have met her, and I don't think there's been a positive one so far.

I always wondered why Lavin started guest starring in all these series since she was so homely and uncharismatic. She played Rhoda's snobby high school friend and was ridiculously miscast.

A now oft repeated opinion is that if Lavin and Franklin had swapped roles, both series would have been improved. Lavin certainly would have worked better on ODAAT and Franklin might not have been so pitiful as a desperate would be singer.

Here's a nice Polly story:

I'd written a play many years ago and wanted Polly for a staged reading. I wrote to her through her agent with my request.

Shortly afterward, I got a voicemail from Polly herself. She explained that she was on location for whatever project she was doing at the time, and therefore unavailable, but very sweetly wished me the best of luck with the play.

Believe me, most actors wouldn't bother, especially with an unknown as a I was at the time. So I've always thought highly of Polly and taken the stories about her with a mountain of salt.

And where are you with your play today? Did she make a mistake?

R38, we had a short but very fun run, with other well-known actors, and it is quite happily buried in the distant past.

And Polly would've been incredible in it.

Boppity-BOP!

This is what I love about this site: Not afraid to ask the hard-hitting questions.

Inversely, how did Ellen Burstyn fail in a sitcom when she actually got one on ABC in 1986?

R35 I think Lavin pushed extra hard for Polly to have a spin off to CBS because she hated being upstaged by her. Polly knew what a sure thing she had in doing the series, whereas a spin off is always risky. Like you said Flo might’ve happened anyway eventually , but if Lavin would’ve been cool to Holliday we might’ve gotten a lot more Flo for longer instead of Jolene.

I heard that kicking herself for nothing was her favorite sport.

R42 poor writing, poor casting surrounding Ellen, poor concept for a series. The usual things that kill a series.

Poor casting is right.

McLean Stevenson was another "push" actor. One horrible sitcom after another.

At least she got another show. All I could get was the Israeli version of [italic]Sesame Street[/italic].

What is meant by "push" actor? I've never seen or heard this term before.

[quote] Alice Doesn’t Live Hare Anymore.

Oh, dear!

Oh, be sweet! Alice had an episode where a gay man wanted to take Tommy on a fishing trip. That was very daring for that time period.

Joan Rivers hated her. When they were both struggling actress/whatevers in NYC, she'd run into Linda who would boast about being cast in something while Joan was getting turn downs. I think it was both the getting hired and the tunrdowns. OTOH, Rivers could feel happy for someone like Treva Silverman who did get work, but not a lot of it.

R28 Please explain what a push star is. I never heard of it. I even Googled it and found nothing.

Really, r52? She seemed chummy with Linda when she had her on her show, mentioning that they knew each other since their beginnings in New York. But maybe it was a secret hate that Linda was never aware of.

Who convinced her to become a blonde?

I’ve been watching both Alice and ODAAT on AntennaTV. I could actually see the two leads switching and it being successful.

As for Alice, I liked the Flo years. I tend to like the early years more than later. Someone said on another thread that PH was asked to come bs I but she declined. One question I always wondered is why so many of the guest characters seemed more from the Deep South than Arizona?

R56, it did seem like every one of Flo's trucker buddies had a southern accent. (The whole trucker culture was a phenomenon in the mid to late '70's, so the show was definitely tapping into that zeitgeist.)

I remember Bernie Kopell playing a state trooper or something and he had a pronounced twang. I figured he thought the show was set in Texas and no one corrected him.

Her ability to scat sing the theme song differently for the outro credits of each season.

One of my favorite things is DL's ongoing war with Linda Lavin.

I want a dance remix of her performance of Do Ya Think I’m Sexy? with Martha Raye.

Ellen Burstyn is overrated.

No one else was ever bothered by Tommy pouring BOILING WATER from the kettle on her tired feet?

He’s why the show ran nine years. By the time it was over, he was legal age.

This was probably how it was each year when she recorded a new version of the Alice theme song. Somewhere there’s a vault of all the unused takes that didn’t meet Ms Lavin’s high standards.

[quote] Flo might’ve happened anyway eventually , but if Lavin would’ve been cool to Holliday we might’ve gotten a lot more Flo for longer instead of Jolene.

Belle was before Jolene, though. Did Lavin run off both Polly Holiday and Diane Ladd, or did Ladd leave for different reasons?

She did

Diane Ladd played Flo in the movie and received an Oscar nomination for it. She probably left because she wanted more high profile work.

R12 is NOT Ginny Ribnicki

[quote] Did Lavin run off both Polly Holiday and Diane Ladd, or did Ladd leave for different reasons?

We know Lavin clashed w Holliday. The reality, personalities aside, is that none of the characters that replaced Flo ever clicked with the audience. If they had, they would have stuck around.

The only episode of 'Alice' I remember is when some fat black breakdancer rolled around the diner.

R30, One of her nominations was pre-"Alice." Best Featured Actress in a Play for "Last of the Red Hot Lovers" in 1970. She lost to Blythe Danner.

R65 i was aware of Belle, Jolene just did as many seasons as Flo. Ladd wasn’t keen on Lavin either. Diane has said the work environment on the set was no picnic. Since Holliday left mid season in 1980, she crossed paths with Ladd and Polly gave her an ominous good luck. Diane started thinking ugh what now. Ladd just didn’t want to deal with it and was probably contracted for one season. She said her character wasn’t developing the way she wanted so she left.

I've decided I know who QAnon is!

It WAS Phil McKeon, but now that he's gone, it's.........

[quote]Diane has said the work environment on the set was no picnic.

Did she ever elaborate? How was Lavin difficult?

I always wanted to know more about Lavin and Ladd. After she was signed, Lavin was going around everywhere saying how extraordinary Ladd was and how privileged they were to have her. And she lasted only one season. Have a feeling that all that talk was also a dig at Holliday but Ladd is also known to be cray cray so I expect that it was a terrible set. Ladd said when she joined that she was thrilled to be on a TV show and getting a regular paycheck.

Linda was cast because of her triple-threat talent. Singing, dancing and acting. She was absolutely amazing, stunning and brilliant at all three.

"Linda was cast as 'Alice' because I was still committed to 'Maude', Rose."--Bea Arthur

Jesus, it's the 70s we're talking about...Beverly Archer was cast as the co-lead in some long-forgotten romantic sitcom.

R76 = LINDA "CUNT" LAVIN

If they did a Latino version of Alice like they did with One Day At A Time, who would they cast?

R74 there was an E entertainment special. Maybe a true Hollywood Story long time ago, and Diane told the story about Polly giving her the ominous good luck. I don’t remember too much about it otherwise. I read some things on some sitcom board about what Diane said about the unhappy set. Basically Vic and Beth just coming in, doing their work, and leaving not being too thrilled. Lavin was probably at the peak of her queen bee ways around this time frame. Once Weston joined the show, she probably settled down a bit, knowing Jolene was no Flo. Diane wasn’t going to go too specifically into the Lavin issues. Most of the time you don’t publicly bad mouth your fellow actors, it doesn’t look good in the industry. Lavin knew the character of Belle may turn into another Flo, considering all the success and the Oscar nom Diane got for the film.

R79, Rita Moreno as Mel.

The only waitresses I liked were Flo and Jolene.

The only time I liked Lavin was when she had a recurring role on The Good Wife. Her character was kind of a cunt. She was very convincing.

[quote]No one else was ever bothered by Tommy pouring BOILING WATER from the kettle on her tired feet?

Linda's co-stars and the entire crew wished they could've done the same.

[quote]If they did a Latino version of Alice like they did with One Day At A Time, who would they cast?

Ten years ago, I would like to see Daphne Rubin-Vega. She’s a bit long in the tooth now.

J. Lo as Flo!

Most TV actors were brought over from the theater back in those days. Where do you think Norman got Bea, Jean Stapleton, Sherman Helmsley, Esther Rolle and Charlotte Rae from to name a few?

¡Alicia!

Diane Ladd is a nutcase. Her former personal assistant (yes, she had one - God know why or how she could afford it) used to tell horror stories about her behavior.

I had occasion to be seated across from her at a dinner in the early '90s and she was ranting to anyone who would listen that her friends had found a cure for AIDS.

How did Laura Dern turn out so normal having Bruce Dern and Diane Ladd as parents?

In the naaaa-vah-hood!

[quote]God know why or how she could afford it

Maybe alimony from her successful movie actor ex-husband, or maybe the income of her other husbands.

They should have had a “Tommy” spin-off. It could have been as good as “James at 15”.

Bruce was always known as being cray cray as well. Laura is known for being a very professional lady. Poor Bruce. He's just lost his house in Pasadena to foreclosure so he's selling.

On Antenna TV last week, playing their ALICE rotation, it just so happened they had the final episode (a clip show) and the first episode/pilot with a different Tommy back to back. Having read all the DL ALICE threads through the years, I found it fascinating. At first in the clip show, I thought they weren't going to show Holliday at all, but eventually they did--I guess there was no way around it. They did not show Ladd, and there seemed to be a lot of the diner regulars around too (Marvin Kaplan, etc.). For a final episode, it was pretty weak. It just went from plot point to plot point giving the characters their endings, and from montage to montage. Alice, pushing 50, finally gets a recording contract! Vera, played by a 46 year old, announces her pregnancy! It looked like a short-budget show rather than a grand sendoff for a series that had performed pretty well for the network across 9 seasons and over 200 episodes and was a top 20 series for 5 of those seasons.

R24, Jolene Hunnicutt played by Celia Weston, was terrific in her role post Flo & Belle.

Remember when Dr. Joyce Brothers was a guest star? Worst episode ever!

Dr Joyce Brothers was a guest on every fucking TV show in the 70s & 80s.

Did we ever get a definition for a "push" star?

“Alice” today would have to be a MTF trans woman with a sassy, adopted, special needs, non-gender specific black child—along the of Penny from Good Times. Let’s call shim Tawmia.

Alice moves west after her mono-gender biological female ex-wife disrespected her journey by not accepting her new lesbian relationship status because cisgender Al with a penis doesn’t live here anymore.

During the trip out west to Hollywood with wisecracking Tawmia, Alice runs out of hormones and starts growing a beard. And if that’s not bad enough, the car breaks down in Phoenix. In desperate search of a CVS to fill her estrogen prescription, she stops at Mel’s Diner to ask directions, and the rest is history.

There’s a new “gurl” in town and he/she is looking GOOD!

^along the lines of

R98 No

OP: I guess that will remain one of life’s little unsolved mysteries………however…. you can bet it had something to do with money.

I think "push star" means that networks pushed certain talents that they thought had what it took to be a STAH! Still happens, I guess.

Yes —artists who weren’t household names but had the capacity to be TV stars in the right show.

Martha Raye would take out her dentures and give gum jobs to the crew.

NBC pushed Ann Jillian. Early Fox pushed Alison LaPlaca.

Linda pushed Linda.

[quote][R12] is NOT Ginny Ribnicki

WROBLIKI

Bonnie needed a push (up).

[quote]One question I always wondered is why so many of the guest characters seemed more from the Deep South than Arizona?

Arizona is the western Florida

More Diane Ladd craziness stories, please!

If Linda had been on It’s a Living, she would have been the Paul Kreppel character and insisted on a ten minute musical number every episode.

Ted McGinley was a failed push star.

(R12) didn't know that about the Rhoda producers, but it is one of my favorite Rhoda episodes and Linda is great in it. Good to hear that producers liked it as well and wanted to bring her back. Rhoda probably could've used a character to play off against to show off her NYC sass.

[quote] Rhoda probably could've used a character to play off against to show off her NYC sass.

What was I, chopped liver?

So we will never know what a "push" actor is. Google has nothing on this fake term.

Linda is good in that Rhoda clip, but the question still remains. How was she cast as the TV version of Ellen Burstyn in Alice Doesn’t Live Hare (sic) Anymore?

A pre-historic Dinah Shore...

America could not have handled Bonnie Franklin's perky braless tits in that waitress uniform! There would've been mass pandemonium, rioting in the streets!

"Alicia ya no vive aquí" next on Azteca América.

Alicia ya se largó de este lío played by Gloria Estefan.

Diane Ladd was only signed to do a year of the show. It was more than enough for her. Plus Belle didn't click with the viewers like Flo did so the producers didn't go out their way trying to convince her to stay on. She still ended up winning a Golden Globe after she had left the show though. You know that pissed Linda off.

A push actor is an actor who just keeps getting jobs, despite never really having a fan base. In the 70s and 80s the networks just kept giving them show after show. Jonathan Silver is another example.

It’s an actor the studios/networks wanted to make a big star, but the public wouldn’t warm up to them .

Well, did the person who talked about push stars ever come back to explain it? That's what I need to know. And also why he used "whilst".

Anyway I don't think it was particularly clear from this.

[quote]Lavin was a "push" star, so many existed in the 70s. Examples included, "Richard "Mr Valerie Harper" Schaal," Barrie Youngfellow, Barbara Barrie, Ellen Travolta, and Doris Roberts. Some like Roberts eventually found a show, (Jerry Van Dyke, also did, but he was more of a "push" 60s star).

Barbara Barrie was more or less a very highly regarded character actress in TV, movies, and theater. Was TV trying to push her on us and make her a star? idk

Diane Ladd joining the show had to be a let's pay the mortgage kind of thing.

There's no earthly good reason why she would have chosen to do it otherwise. Someone else was playing her original lead role, and she was a star playing a supporting role to a difficult, unpleasant star.

Unless someone at CBS or the producers sold her on the idea that the show was a two-star vehicle. The fact that it was named "Alice" should have been the real big, clear hint for her.

R125, Diane Ladd wasn’t the lead in the film. Ellen Burstyn was.

Unfortunately, it was the era of catchphrase writing. Flo’s “kiss my grits” was funny. Then they brought Diane on as Belle and gave her the catchphrase “My little voice said Isabelle. My little voice always calls me Isabelle.” It was funny once because it was very Southern, but it wasn’t something you could put on a tshirt like they did with “Kiss My Grits.”

[quote]Diane Ladd wasn’t the lead in the film. Ellen Burstyn was.

Category fraud!

Did Mel ever punch any of his waitresses?

I liked Diane Ladd as Flo in ADLHA but her Belle was the poor man’s Polly Holliday Flo.

[quote] Did Mel ever punch any of his waitresses?

Nah, by that time it had already been done by Ralph Kramden.

Vera in the film is borderline retarded.

R122 Linda won two globes for Alice. I don’t think the globes pissed Linda off as much as the Emmy nominations did. Linda only received one in 9 years while Polly received 4 in 4 years. It’s too bad Diane only signed up for one year. She might’ve been more amenable to staying if Lavin behaved. Or bringing Polly back, even though I think Polly tired of the role, and dealing with Lavin because life is too short. I love Celia as a character actress but Jolene never did anything for me.

Vera was very weird in the early episodes of Alice. They made her less bizarre and more as the show progressed. I did catch an early ep recently where she tried to commit suicide. Shows seemed to be more daring in their first seasons back then. Like Three’s Company definitely had more sexual undertones in its first season. Even Facts of Life pushed the envelope in S1 like the eps about marijuana, eating disorders, Blair nearly being date raped. Although when I think about it FoL was more daring overall than TC, which really had silly storylines.

Linda accepting her first Golden Globe.

Polly and Vic are at different tables.

[quote] Jonathan Silver is another example.

Did you mean Jonathan SilverMAN?

Three's Company had silly storylines? No kidding.

r135 We were in different ZIP Codes.

How do you know how he identifies, r136?

That’s LITERAL VIOLENCE!!

Why does it have to be a MAN? So much sexism!

He should be Jonathan Silverbiologicalmale.

Or just Jonathan Silverberg, brother of Miles.

OP, I thought R12 explained Linda Lavin's appeal at the time quite well. She didn't need to have the grit of Ellen Burstyn as they were turning it into a somewhat family friendly sitcom, and Lavin had demonstrated eough appeal with audiences in her TV guest appearances that she could be the next sitcom "star". With 9 season, I guessed she proved them right. Been watching Alice during quarantine, and I do like the early seasons with Polly.. those hold up fine;

[quote]Linda won two globes for Alice. I don’t think the globes pissed Linda off as much as the Emmy nominations did. Linda only received one in 9 years

That's because Alice wasn't an interesting character. You could take her completely out of the show and had a diner version of Cheers with the rest of the ensemble.

Plus she was up against some stiff competition: Maude, Mary Tyler Moore, Rhoda, Jean Stapleton, Katherine Helmond in Soap, Isabel Sanford, Carole Kane in Taxi, The Golden Girls, Jane Curtin, Shelley Long

Plus, what probably finally pushed her over the edge was that in 1980, Polly Holliday was nominated in Lead category for "Flo" a spinoff of Lavin's show.

I slapped Alice Hyatt.

Hard.

It felt good.

You're welcome, Polly.

As a millennial bigender of mixed heritage, I tried to enjoy this “classic”TV series and was outraged by thr lack of diversity. I found it impossible to watch, as I didn’t really “see” myself in the show and therefore couldn’t really relate to any of the characters. I will be writing a guest piece on Jezebel called “Alice Was a Racist Show And Why It FUCKING Matters!” I will send it to Linda Lavin demanding an apology via Twitter. I hope she’s listening like Lin-Manuel Miranda.

First of all Nell Carter IS average. She is has nothing special about her voice. I can name you a hundred actress that can sing better.

Second. the CAST is what made Alice. Everyone was great in their role. Especially Vic Tayback. You could get rid of any of them including Alice and replaced the character, but NOT Mel. Flo, Belle and Jolene each were very good with their parts. Beth "Don't Tell Anyone I'm Dead" Howland started out as almost a background character in the first season and showed she had more than tap dancing and throwing straws as a talent. Even Marvin "Henry" Kaplan and Dave "Earl" Madden played their roles fine. And Philip "I Died of AIDS and my Sister is covering it up" McKeon was good. It was definitely NOT a star driven but an ensemble show.

Stars like Ann Jillian were not pushed on the public. Jillian had a few show fail, but didn't show up in every other show like Doris Roberts or Barrie Youngfellow did. Plus Jillian had a lot of work as a child actor, including one of the best known "Twilight Zone" episodes "Ilse," the mute. That episode alone was so classic it would have assured her recognition, if she never did anything else.

As for Lavin being cast on Rhoda, I could see that. Vivian Vance was also primed to be a semi-regular but got ill and backed out.

Finally without Vic Tayback, Alice would not have succeeded. Just like Laurie Metcalf is a vastly underrated second banana. She MADE "Roseanne" and "The Norm Show," and stole every scene on "The Big Bang Theory."

R147 You know my policy on whores.

Why wasn’t Vera played by an Asian actress?

R144 The Golden Girls started a year after Alice ended. In some episodes Lavin is really great and charismatic. I wouldn’t go as far as saying you could take Lavin out completely without changing the dynamic and entertainment value in a huge way. Maybe in the Polly years for an episode here and there, but never in the Jolene years. But the fact that Lavin lost to Ruth Gordon for a guest appearance in Taxi speaks volumes in how the TV Academy didn’t warm to her. She either didn’t play the Hollywood game very well, pissed the wrong people off, or just plain didn’t like her work. Probably a combination of all three.

What’s that episode where Alice is dressed as a mobster?

[quote] How did Laura Dern turn out so normal having Bruce Dern and Diane Ladd as parents?

Laura Dern dated Billy Bob Thornton, who did Laura a favor and left her for Angelina Jolie. That guy is creepy.

I just watched that Rhoda clip. I often found Lavin annoying on Alice, but she was dynamite on Rhoda.

It does seem baffling especially given today's "Everyone gets nominated and/or a trophy climate, actors like Linda Lavin and Bonnie Franklin were only nominated once each, considering their sitcoms ran for almost a decade on TV.

More so in Franklin's case, Valerie won two Golden Globes, and Pat Harrington and longtime director Alan Rafkin both took home Emmys. But Franklin was totally shut out.

R154 I think in Bonnies case, it’s the same as what was working against Linda. A talented ensemble cast that overshadowed the main star of the show. Hell even Bertinelli won two globes for the show (coincidentally tying with Ladd in 1981). While Bonnie couldn’t even muster one globe win. That would never happen nowadays with a popular show, but the categories have expanded too with many more acting nominees.

Emmy wise not globe wise that is^^^

Linda and Bonnie just weren’t likable.

[quote] Finally without Vic Tayback, Alice would not have succeeded. Just like Laurie Metcalf is a vastly underrated second banana. She MADE "Roseanne" and "The Norm Show," and stole every scene on "The Big Bang Theory."

Yes, Vic Tayback *was* Mel. You almost took him for granted.

I loved "Jackie" in the old Roseanne show. Laurie Metcalf was so damn funny with her career crises: cop, truck driver, etc. She really was a lesbian in that show.

Today there are fewer sitcoms than there used to be. There were no reality TV series in those days, as we know it today. And there were only three networks, that relied heavily on sitcoms every single night, almost.

The episodes where Linda Lavin sang and danced to show off her "talents" are a DL favorite. Laving must have strong-armed the producers that she had to sing and dance in X number of episodes every season.

R160 well the character was trying to break into show biz as a singer like the film. I didn’t mind the singing episodes. It would’ve gotten a bit monotonous just gag after gag at the diner with the waitresses strictly slinging hash.

Linda had to share her singing talent with the world.

The show pushed the southern accents since n the South, the show (especially during the Flo years) was second only to church as appointment viewing

Alice’s singing and her dressing as a mobster where nobody recognized her got tedious. Although the episode where the appeared on Dinah Shore was pretty funny.

As for the southern thing... Flo and her replacements all came from the south. All Flo’s men seem to be southern, but not Alice’s or Vera. The singing stars they had on seemed to all be country.

There is a part of me that feels bad for stars of shows who gets outshined by a supporting player... and then there is a part of me that goes shut up and let the second stringer do her thing, collect the check, and you don't have to carry the entire show on your back... and you're still #1 on the call sheet.

I guess it's human nature though. Poor Linda and Bonnie.

Was Friends the first cast to join together and negotiate as a team and status?

Sometimes the #1 on the call sheet can only do so much. Like stomp when they walk, or snarl and curl their lip.

It heps to have a strong second stringer!

Friends is the first show I can recall where the cast members all banded together and got along with each other. Nearly always, a big hit show caused the cast members to hate each other and fight like hellcats.

In this interview (at 3:20) Lavin explains how she got "Alice": she had a tiny part in the pilot for another series, which the head of Warners saw. He told her he wanted her for the lead in her own series, and two years later that series was "Alice".

Tea Leoni and Marc Feuerstein were other “push” actors. It’s pretty obvious what that poster meant even if it’s not an industry “term.”

I get the DL comparisons to Lavin (not Lanvin autocorrect) to some extent, especially the part about being on a long running CBS show with little to no acclaim , but you can’t argue that Lavin has had a pretty solid career post-Alice — she has absolutely never been at a loss for work (and in pretty good projects, too). Like them or not (and I can’t say I’m a fan of either, and I totally get the snark) you can’t really compare their career trajectories (at least post-sitcom you can’t).

And thanks for that Globes clip!

Tea Leoni was pushed so fucking hard in both tv and movies and the public was "meh" every time. She's one of the more egregious examples of a "push" actor that I can think of. They tried and tried to make her a star for quite a few years, and the public just wasn't buying it.

Lavin was good at playing non goody two shoe characters. I liked her ep on Mom.

There are probably more successful TV shows where a second-stringer becomes more of a fan favorite than the main character.

Writers have more freedom with secondary characters and there's no law that audiences must like the title character the best, no matter how much the main actor wants them to

I really remember an episode where Vera is leaving and gets in a motorcycle sidecar, but the motorcycle takes off without her, so she decides to stay, because it was a sign she was supposed to. I thought it was such a strange idea as a kid. Made me think.

I bet Vic Tayback was sexy as a young man. Nice and hairy. Don't think I've ever seen a picture.

In the remake it'll be a strip club instead of a diner.

R117 I just laughed out loud

Sometimes you have to figure the "push" actor had someone's backing. Or they were fucking the right person.

Other times, you could kinda see that actor had a certain something and with the right property would become a big hit.

I liked Tea well enough but she was too urbane to be the girl next door and not urbane enough to play very dry, arch roles. And I know it ran for a while but I can't think of anyone I know who actually watched Madam Secretary.

Vic Tayback was just a major mack daddy. I loved mim with his hot piece Marie.

When Linda played a dual character as her landlady, an elderly stereotypical Jewish person was good.

Also in addition to Rhoda she was also Phyllis friend (as another character) see below.

Both Karen and Jack became more beloved than the title characters on Will and Grace. It happens very often. Delta Burke was the true star of Designing Women in spite of the great work done by everyone else. Suzanne was the funniest and most brash and that's always more interesting than the leads who are usually written in a way to make them easily digestible to the mainstream public, so they won't be saying things as outrageous.

Second characters rule

Florence and Mother Jefferson on The Jeffersons

Grady and Aunt Esther on Sanford and Son

Willona on Good Times

[quote]The episodes where Linda Lavin sang and danced to show off her "talents" are a DL favorite. Lavin must have strong-armed the producers that she had to sing and dance in X number of episodes every season.

And just what, may I ask, is wrong with that?

Floris leachman (RIP) - the bigger bitch of the two

It makes you realize how magical it is when there's a show with such a strong ensemble like Friends, It's Always Sunny, The Golden Girls, etc. where every cast member sticks out and there's no real traditional lead. Most shows are lucky to get one or two believed supporting characters.

Designing Women, 30 Rock, Mary Tyler Moore, Cheers, Frasier, All in the Family, Arrested Development …

No weak links in the casts.

Seinfeld also.

All 1970s shows had a song and dance episode. It was a requirement.

I couldn't stand Tea Leoni so I was one of the public who wasn't buying her.

R174 This is the earliest picture of Vic Tayback I can find. It was from a stage production of of 'Death of Salesman' from 1960. He had more hair and was thinner, but didn't look too much different than from his 'Alice' days.

r187 that clip is pure talent. Bea Arthur was a fucking LEGEND.

R190 YES! Bea was amazing

I’d imagine she was cast by a casting agent.

How can the same guy who “discovered” Bea have handpicked Linda and Bonnie F not to mention Gary Coleman? The mind baffles.

I have no idea WTF Norman Lear was thinking when he cast Bonnie Franklin in a sitcom. She was shrill, absolutely humorless and totally annoying, and he picks her for the lead in a sitcom? It's bizarre.

Maybe he was mesmerized by those pancake titties flopping around without a bra.

Bea Arthur had some serious Broadway credentials. She was Lucy Brown in Threepenny Opera and she originated the roles of Yente in Fiddler On the Roof and Vera Charles in Mame. That's quite a resume.

Bea's singing voice was limited in range, but so beautiful on the right song. I miss singing voices with character like that.

Not only did every 70s show have a song and dance episode, but someone always dressed up as and imitated Charlie Chaplin.

While looking at Getty Images pics of Vic Tayback (there weren't any good ones), I stumbled across this one of Jay Leno in Alice. I had no idea he had an acting career before his talk show.

How many people would even know who Charlie Chaplin is today?

R195, you’ve completely dismissed Coral Browne

Horshack from Welcome Back Kotter was also in that episode, R198. It was ridiculous because he was playing a tough guy. Jay Leno was in a few sitcoms. I know he was in an episode of Good Times.

Bea Arthur was great, but how could she dislike Betty White? Hearing that rubbed me the wrong way. Betty seems like such a lovely person.

He always looked around 40. I remember his being in Bullitt and Papillon.

The thing about "push" actors (as has been termed here) back in the 70s and 80s is that networks would sign actors to holding deals (much like the old studio system back in the day) and they would be under contract to the network for a certain amount of time, therefore they would show up in series after series. The network would get them for a song, and since they were already paying them to sit around, they figured they may as well put em to work.

I was a child actor (no, not famous, so don't bother guessing) and I was signed to a holding deal by NBC in 1978. I appeared as a guest actor on several shows, did two pilots (one of which went no further, the other was rewritten after it was shot and my character was eliminated). I worked heavily during the Fred Silverman years and wound up with nothing to show for it before my contract was not renewed.

I remember as a kid seeing Jay Leno in an episode of Laverne & Shirley and I thought he was the kid who played Mike Teevee in Willy Wonka grown up.

I worked for Vic Tayback's brother Joe Tabback at his radio station in Sedona. Joe was an obnoxious, homophobic creep, and this is the only job I was ever fired from out of 40 years of jobs related to that business. Like Vic, he has left this mortal coil.

Vic was a hot hairy daddy.

R195 I know, that’s why I put “discovered” in quotation marks - although really theatre and TV/film are two different worlds, especially then. You would just think from picking her, Jean, Sherman Hemsley, etc that Lear knew what real talent was, but I guess he had his misses too.

Go to 12:46

Like Dixie Carter, Bea Arthur must have had it written into her contract that she got to sing in so many episodes. This wouldn’t make it on the air today.

Maude & Rue

Maude's yearly musical episodes were unwatchable.

She did it her way.

[quote]I’d imagine she was cast by a casting agent.

In the GREATEST TRADITION of referring to a casting director as a "casting agent", of which there is no such thing!

Every day of the year casting directors addressing co-workers, actors, the public and really anyone to please stop calling them "agents" because they are not. They do not represent actors or anyone else and do not take commissions. None of this will stop the kudzu that is "casting agent" from being used!

Linda Lavin is a better entertainer than carrot top Bra less Bonnie Franklin .

The crew on Alice used to sing "there's a new cunt in town" every time Linda Lavin arrived on the set.

It was ridiculous for them to expect the audience to actually believe that middle-aged, hatchet-faced Flo was supposed to be the town pump of Phoenix. Most men would rather chew off their right arm than take a ride on that.

The best (worst) episodes were the ones where Linda Lavin twisted the producer's arms to write in a singing and dancing number so Lavin could show off her "talents."

Philip McKeon had to be one of the ugliest child actors ever, and were we supposed to believe that that short, squat yenta Lavin popped his tall, gangly blonde goy ass out of her cooch?

Was Vera supposed to be mildly retarded?

I think you're wrong R216. Town sluts are rarely attractive and tend to look rough. Polly Holiday totally looked the part, especially with who she was fucking.

The ultimate "push actor" was Bonnie Hunt. Decades of work that was supposed to make her a household name.

Would Teri Garr be considered a push actor?

Many shows had musical episodes, going back to the Dick Van Dyke show and probably before that. If they had any actors who were musical, it probably was an easy show to write and gave the writers a break.

R216 on that note, why DID they change Alice from Ellen Burstyn type to...yenta type? Surely they couldn’t have thought that was more marketable.

Polly Holliday was good friends with Dustin Hoffman (from the THEATRE). He got her that bit part in All the Presidents Men.

And hell no r219. If anything, she rarely got the level of roles she deserved.

[quote] on that note, why DID they change Alice from Ellen Burstyn type to...yenta type? Surely they couldn’t have thought that was more marketable.

Linda Lavin isn't actually a yenta type. She's just Jewish.

I’m not sure you could call LL’s Rhoda character a yenta type but it seemed very culturally specific.

The ultimate "push actor" had to be McLean Stevenson. He had one unsuccessful sitcome after another. MASH killed off his character because Stevenson didn't like to reherse or do retakes. He was loathed.

Just because a network kept looking for vehicles and imposed people on the series they broadcast as guest stars doesn't mean that people are untalented or don't have a niche. Jonathan Silverman ultimately became a director. Some of the people who have been mentioned like Doris Roberts became dependable supporting players. The problem is that these people are not headliner material. Even McLean Stevenson wasn't terrible. Harry Morgan's character brought something new to MASH, but Stevenson's character made the show funnier.

Alfred Lutter III was the film Tommy and appeared in the Alice pilot. He was kicked to the curb and replaced by Philip McKeon (RIP). Anyone know the story why he was switched?

Philip had a bigger dong?

Oy!!

r190

I did not know that Bea say the same song on 2 different shows... that's kinda funny

R225 they wanted to go younger for the Tommy character

[quote] Bea Arthur was great, but how could she dislike Betty White? Hearing that rubbed me the wrong way. Betty seems like such a lovely person.

That was all overstated for clicks and page hits.

To say she hated Betty would be incorrect. But Bea was very all business on the set, and Betty was in many ways playing hostess and entertaining, even the crew, 24/7. They had a serious clash of working style.

[quote]The best (worst) episodes were the ones where Linda Lavin twisted the producer's arms to write in a singing and dancing number so Lavin could show off her "talents."

I watched this shit as a kid, but, even then, I hated the musical episodes. Even more, I HATED the ones with Lavin in male drag, which made Lucy's bits in male drag seem funny. (I LOVED Lucy as a kid, but hated the male drag especially on "The Lucy Show" where, in color, she's wearing bright red lipstick, but supposed to pass as "Iron Man Carmichael.").

I love drag, I love Linda

What did Philip McKeon die from?

R233 Republicanism

Your main point is still right, but just to note that Three-Penny Opera which was Arthur's first high-visibility show was not a Broadway production. It was off-Broadway.

R230, I don’t know, Betty White said herself Bea wasn’t fond of her. Maybe she didn’t hate her, but she didn’t exactly like her either.

Yes, not fond, but for the reasons I mentioned at R230.

Betty wanted to play all day on set, and Bea wanted to do her shit and go home. They clashed, but to say there was a bitter hatred there was vastly overstated.

Says you!

I've watched a couple of interviews with Ms. Lavin discussing "Alice," how her character was a role model for single mothers and working women, and how her series was a showcase for second-wave feminism. Silly me. I thought it was just another mindless, but entertaining, sitcom.

It's been many years since I've seen the movie, but I had the impression that the Vera character in the movie was kind of sad and depressing, not the big hearted dingbat of the show.

But I have always remembered the phrase from the movie uttered by Belle when Mel asks where Vera was: "She went to shit and the hogs ate her!" I still use that phrase today, still makes me giggle.

R240 Vera started out in the series like Valerie Curtin was in the film but they brought her out of her shell, and still kept her kind of odd component.

One Day At a time was groundbreaking for time. A single mother with two teenage kids who had initiated her divorce and was looking to find herself. It hadn't been shown on TV before.

Even though DL icon Vivian Vance was the first actress to play a divorcee on The Lucy Show. But the divorce part was barely mentioned, and her child was phased out two years into the show.

Vance also never had the courage to slap her miscreant child and shed her constraining bra.

In case you were wondering, Linda and Bonnie DID work together once, on The Hal Linden Variety Special. Sounds like absolute torture.

Was Bonnie incapable of holding her head upright? Was it that heavy?

The Hal Linden Special (with Linda and Bonnie) is on YouTube.

I'm sure everybody on DL knows this already, but Bonnie did a tap dancing video in the 80s. Some nut uploaded a portion of it to Youtube, with the "My Neck My Back Lick My Pussy and My Crack" song playing over it. It was hilarious, but unfortunately taken down.

"Tilt your head, show your tits."

She was a good actress with a nice voice & she played the role of relatable everywoman very well.

r249 = Linda Lavin's zombie mom.

What was Mary Jane's marital status on The Lucy Show?

Interesting Franklin had virtually no career after ODAAT. No more sitcoms, no respected TV movies, no working on Broadway that I know of. NOTHING. Have to give Lavin props for going back to Broadway and winning a Tony and getting multiple nominations and regular tv work.

Lavin and Judy Light started fighting for the same roles.

[quote] Have to give Lavin props for going back to Broadway and winning a Tony and getting multiple nominations and regular tv work.

She had to get out and start enjoyin' 'cause life's too short.

[quote]Was Bonnie incapable of holding her head upright? Was it that heavy?

That ginger mushroom 'do weighed a ton. The wardrobe department had to reinforce her perky turtleneck with wire and whalebone.

Bonnie Franklin was in an Alfred Hitchcock movie, as a child: The Wrong Man (1957). This is her in the scene with Vera Miles and Henry Fonda.

She looks like a freak

Bonnie was also on episodes of "Gidget," "Hazel," and "The Munsters."

Linda Lavin did 3 very good guest shots - she was so funny as Meadow’s therapist on “The Sopranos.” “So - Meadow - Does Dad ever touch you?” ……She also did several episodes of “The Good Wife.” She was in charge of Cary’s bail requirements - she was really deadpan and humorless and mispronounced people’s names - she was really good ….. She as also very funny on Mom as Violet’s extremely Jewish potential mother in law. …..

Young Bonnie's extended tap routine in "The Wrong Man" took me right out of the movie.

What is a constraining bra, R243? I’ve only seen a tit in pictures and even I know it’s training bra.

[quote] Linda Lavin did 3 very good guest shots - she was so funny as Meadow’s therapist on “The Sopranos.” “So - Meadow - Does Dad ever touch you?” ……She also did several episodes of “The Good Wife.” She was in charge of Cary’s bail requirements - she was really deadpan and humorless and mispronounced people’s names - she was really good ….. She as also very funny on Mom as Violet’s extremely Jewish potential mother in law.

Don't forget her brilliant, award-deserving performance as Kermit's doctor in The Muppets Take Manhattan.

[quote] What is a constraining bra, [R243]? I’ve only seen a tit in pictures and even I know it’s training bra.

Isn't a constraining bra something they used to keep their tits down, especially if a busty woman was playing a younger girl (e.g., Judy in The Wizard of Oz)? They're like Ace bandages . . . or sometimes they just use an Ace bandage.

A cross between an ace bandage and a shorty strait-jacket (sometimes known as a camoisole because of the size and because psychiatry loves euphemisms).

Both of them were well loved by casting agents.

I did hear that Valerie borrowed Bea Arthur's turd from Betty White and left it in Bonnie's dressing room.

It later traveled to the Linda Lavin Show's (I guess it had a name but on set we had to refer to it that way) where dear Philip McKeon left it in her dressing room. Well, he left it in the "inner room" of her dressing room because she had a suite.

Lavin knew Phil did it because they had had a lot of trouble as he pushed back against her sexual pressures. She told him "he'd never had a career and one day I'll get you and it may take me twenty years but I'll get you.

And she did.

Does anyone know where Bea's turd traveled after that? It disappeared from the dressing room and I assumed Polly stole it away. Maybe Betty got it back. She probably had Valerie Bertinelli leave a deposit.

[quote] I don’t know, Betty White said herself Bea wasn’t fond of her. Maybe she didn’t hate her, but she didn’t exactly like her either.

The gossip that I heard was that Bea got sick of Betty’s “save the animals” campaign. Scuttlebutt says that “save the animals” was chosen for Betty to help boost her profile and Betty went overboard in working it. Bea knew the main purpose was to boost Betty’s popularity, but she wasn’t going to appear at events with Betty and pretend to save animals just because Betty needed a charity. And don’t misunderstand, Betty liked animals but not to the extent that she put on.

Did the network decide to cancel Alice after Season 8 or did Linda herself pull the plug?

I remember reading that ODAAT could have had one more season but Bonnie did not want to continue. And Pat Harrington was angry with her at the time as it would have $$ in the bank (and he was right).

ODAAT also ended with Ann Romano accepting a job in England. I wonder if the Brits found her as annoying or if she fit right in?

Alice did really well in the UK

Jolene called Vera "shoe button". I guess that was kind of her catchphrase. She also had a brief tryst with Mel.

Mel gave them all $5000 when he sold the diner.

[quote] I remember reading that ODAAT could have had one more season but Bonnie did not want to continue. And Pat Harrington was angry with her at the time as it would have $$ in the bank (and he was right).

If CBS really wanted to move forward with another season, and Bonnie was the ONLY one who wanted out, they could have easily squeezed out one last season with Bertinelli, Harrington, Gaines and even Scarpelli. (They could have said Alex was going to stay behind to finish school in the states.) They even could have brought back Mackenzie Phillips. Bonnie stopped being the star of that show years ago and was just part of the ensemble, and there was no way she would have been the ONLY cause for leaving money on the table.

[quote] Bea Arthur was great, but how could she dislike Betty White? Hearing that rubbed me the wrong way. Betty seems like such a lovely person.

If I read between the lines on what Betty said, Betty was a Pollyanna. Also, it's stated upthread that Betty enjoyed being on set and seems like she did things to prolong being on set. Bea Arthur probably wanted to go home and drink openly. (It's rumored that she was an alcoholic and drank during taping of GG.)

I watched outtakes (YouTube) of Seinfeld. Seems like Elaine needed the most takes. Kramer was one-take and seemed like he wanted to get out of there.

I like to do my work and go home.

[quote] one last season with Bertinelli, Harrington, Gaines and even Scarpelli

Scarpelli had already left the show and wasn't in the last season. They would have had to bring him back.

[quote] They even could have brought back Mackenzie Phillips

They did bring her back, only to have her relapse, so they fired her again. I don't think they were willing to give her a third try.

The show had already dragged on a season or two longer than it should have. Another season would have been painful.

R270 Jolene said “jump back” as another catchphrase.

Because of her rabbit fan base.

R271, Scarpelli was gone, and the show was pretty lame by then. BF was barely on it. It shifted to Barbara, Max, Mark and the grandmother living together. They chose wrong with that boring as fuck husband they cast for Barbara. They should’ve hooked her up with Max at least. Why not have Cliff come back? BG was so lifeless and dull. I don’t like HH either in his role. He was very arrogant and unlikeable.

R271, Mel and Joleen actually had good chemistry. They should have developed it. It’s funny, Mel sold the diner or threatened to is so many episodes that it was almost anti-climatic when he did in the final show.

A reboot of "Alice" as a single-camera and more adult comedy could work on a streaming service.

^^^Lavin could make special appearances as Mel's mother.

Of course, Flo would probably have to be reimagined as a trans woman of color, so forget it.

[quote] They chose wrong with that boring as fuck husband they cast for Barbara. They should’ve hooked her up with Max at least.

I recall one episode in the final season where Barb and Max came close to fucking.

Rabbit fan base? Oh, dear!

What’s wrong with that, Doc?

Simple...

She fucked and sucked her way to the top.

[quote] it was almost anti-climatic when he did in the final show.

Oh, dear. What did it have to do with the weather?

Since they were both on CBS, they should have created an "Alice-One Day At a Time Variety Hour." More opportunities for Linda to sing and Bonnie to tap.

Tap who?

I think CBS ended up canceling Alice. I’ve never heard anything that Linda wanted out. I can’t speak for everyone else though. One of the three other actors in the diner might’ve wanted to go, and they just said fuck it we are not replacing anyone else with the ratings it’s getting.

As far as One Day, Valerie wanted out too. I think ODAAT was pulling in similar ratings to Alice. Mackenzie didn’t get clean until the early 90s, so bringing her back yet again wouldn’t have worked. So CBS just pulled the plug on this one too.

Linda Lavin popped up on The Sopranos as a granola-type therapist (Meadow). Dr. Wendy something.

We know. R259 told us.

R278: "Of course, Flo would probably have to be reimagined as a trans woman of color, so forget it."

Taking the "Flo" out of "Flow"

I think it would have been difficult to get Mackenzie back at that point because she was 'touring' with her father full time, if you know what I mean and I KNOW that you do!

I’ve been watching this on Anetenna TV.

Losing Flo was terrible for the show. It was still funny but Flo really kept the comedic pace flowing better. Belle was dull as shit. Jolene was nice but she didn’t come close to being a Flo level comedic presence.

I can see why many consider it comfort food. It is very pleasant to watch. I got annoyed at the recycled, “We’re all quitting” or “I’m selling the diner” schtick.

It was very daring early on with Vera trying to commit suicide and the gay man wanting to take Tommy fishing. As somebody noticed, It seems sitcoms were very bold back then yet it didn’t take away from the comedy part all that much.

I have also watched Three’s Company. The sexual innuendo was off the charts but also in your face with Mrs. Roper wanting it non-stop from Mr. Roper. I did not enjoy it after Somer’s left. Chrissy was hysterical and they all had great chemistry.

[quote] I did not enjoy it after Somer’s left.

Oh, dear!

ODAAT basically gave Mackenzie the finger by writing her character off with not even ten episodes left. They could have easily had her away for the remainder of the show, but the fact that they chose to write her out in such a brutal fashion shows they were completely done with her. Michael Lembeck felt they did her and the character wrong.

Bonnie hated that they had her character get married again, because she felt it defeated the whole purpose of the show. She only agreed to doing it because she knew it was her last year (and they gave her a raise). Even then, she didn't have much to do with that last season, by her own choice.

Pat was supposed to get his own spinoff, with Corey Feldman, but it never worked out. Even though he won the Emmy for that episode.

R292 ugh, and I know her name is Somers not Somer.

All in good fun, r294.

It's hard to believe now, but Three's Company was pretty controversial back during its original run. It was considered a raunchy, bawdy "adult" sitcom with blue humor and a lot of people took offense to it. It all looks so tame now, but back then it was quite a risqué show.

Actually Lem said in an interview that he thought they did a sensitive writing out of Julie and that they wanted to make sure the audience didn't hate her for leaving their child.

I have no desire to watch Three's Company now.

r295 I love getting caught with an “Oh dear” so I was thrilled.

They should’ve just kept Mackenzie off screen after she was fired. Not leaving her husband and kid. Dumb.

R1: "shu be du wah WAH"

Isn't it "bum bum bum bum bumayum"?

Linda Lavin directed 10 episodes of "Alice," starting with "Vera the Vamp" in 1980 to "Jolene is Stuck on Mel" in 1984. There were several Alice-free episodes, usually because Lavin was working behind the camera. On the final season, she played the recurring character Mrs. Walden, Vera's landlady. I imagine after 9 season, Lavin was bored with playing Alice and wanted to try other things, so she likely said "No" to a 10th season.

[quote]I have no desire to watch Three's Company now.

I had no desire to watch it then.

Why do we keep talkking about these four shows, Alice, One Day At A Time, Three's Company, and Golden Giirls, on this thread? What does Alice have to do with the other three? I want to talk about What's Happenin'. Dee the little sisiter was much better than Linda Lavin.

Alice and Ann Romano are spiritual sisters!

Linda Lavatory was once married to hottie Ron Leibman. They divorced during the run of Alice.

Who had the stinkiest pussy? Linda Lavin or Bonnie Franklin?

[quote] Why do we keep talkking about these four shows, Alice, One Day At A Time, Three's Company, and Golden Giirls, on this thread?

I don't know about "Three's Company" and "Golden Girls," but "Alice" and "One Day at a Time" are inseparable on DL. Any discussion of one will inevitably lead to a discussion of the other.

R303 Alice and ODAAT haven’t had much of a life past first run syndication, but you can’t deny that the popularity of TC and GG have endured well past generations that were alive during their respective runs. You really can’t compare.

I only watch TC with Chrissy, esp with the Ropers.

Disagree, R308. Alice and ODAAT both had long syndication runs. They’re still are on Antenna and occasional Logo. Granted TC and GG have been aired more consistently.

R309, same. I think that’s why Friends and Seinfeld really endured. They never had cast changes. I think most shows I fell out of were ones where someone left or the premise was changed in some drastic way.

I actually like the Alice character except when she sings or pretends to be other characters. LOL.

The reason ODAAT MUST be discussed when Alice is brought up is because years ago on DL it was unanimously decided that Linda Lavin would have been much better as the maternal Ann Romano and Bonnie Franklin as the attention starved showbiz wannabe Alice Hyatt. Also, the kids on ODAAT looked more like Lavin and McKeon while not looking like Franklin had similar coloring to the Bonstress.

[quote] McKeon while not looking like Franklin had similar coloring to the Bonstress.

Instead of "Tawwmmmy," we could have had "Dammit, Tommy!"

We could have had Ann Romano jogging to the door of Mel's Diner to greet new customers as they entered.

We could have had Ann delivering a soliloquy in the middle of the diner, only to be interrupted by Mel shouting, "Stow it, Ann!"

Linda should have guest starred on ODAAT as Glenn Scarpelli’s mom.

Linda was hired for her early-to-rise, early-to-bed work ethic.

From '78 to '82, ODAAT and Alice aired back to back on CBS's successful Sunday night lineup. For a time, Sunday primetime began with All in the Family/Archie Bunker's Place, followed by ODAAT, Alice, The Jeffersons, and ended with Trapper John, MD. Then CBS futz around with that lineup and tried out new shows after the Archie Bunker slot, moved ODAAT and Alice around, and those two began to drop in the ratings.

It's a long-held belief on DL that Ann Romano smelled like dirty pantyhose.

It is about 2:20 in L.A. - I can’t sleep - I’ve been dosing with the the “Mom” marathon on Nick. In the background. The Linda Lavin episode with her as a pushy Jewish mother in law is on. Because of all of my friends here at Datalounge I immediately felt a surge of camaraderie - Linda Lavin is on tv!,

[quote] Linda was hired for her early-to-rise, early-to-bed

The question was with who?

I must have had something better to do on Sunday nights, because I don't remember that lineup at all. I must have watched a few times, because I knew I couldn't stomach Alice or ODAAT. "Kiss my Grits" lost its luster pretty quickly and while I thought Lavin had comic timing I never got the point of Bonnie Franklin.

Alice and ODAAT have been in syndication on and off for a long time, but usually on something like Ion or MeTV rather than even basic cable, where as Golden Girls has never been out of syndication and always on basic or even extra cost (not exactly premium like HBO) cable. Three's Company has been (thankfully) gone from syndication for long periods of time.

Does Linda Lavin's pussy stink?

CBS used to show ODAAT after Tattle Tales or Match Game as well. That’s when I watched it.

I wonder if anyone can do deep fake with Ann and Alice so we can really see what it might have been like in each other’s roles.

[quote]I think most shows I fell out of were ones where someone left or the premise was changed in some drastic way.

Were you hurt?

I feel like Three’s Company has been on a lot the past 10 years. It’s even on IFC now. Little House on the Prairie is also on multiple stations. That 70s Show is another one that was everywhere a few years ago. Two and Half Men is on a lot currently.

Who knows how many men and women and trannies Linda fucked to claw her way to the top!

Yes, yes, all of these actresses look appealing--BUT, can any of them scat the theme song?

I can't imagine a younger person today sitting through Little House On the Prairie or The Waltons, both show must look absolutely ancient to them.

I know, there's no blue hair, tattoos or teen sex and no one says "dude".

No r329 they're just boring AF.

I was a kid at the end of Little House's run and even back then we thought it was smarmy old-fashioned dreck. It was dated even in the 80s

The Waltons was a very good show, at least the first few seasons. A show set in the Blue Ridge in the Depression was a long shot but it was deservedly popular. Some of the kids on the show couldn't act, but the adults and Richard Thomas were excellent and the writing was really good.

Flo also used, “When donkey’s fly” which helped from overusing KMG. Both were funny. Vera and the straws never gets old. When life is hectic I picture that and laugh.

Alice was still very watchable without Flo though Flo was very missed. Three’s Company lost a lot without Chrissy. I never watch the non-Chrissy shows.

Networks always fuck around with the schedule and it never works yet they never learn.

This pandemic helped me get aquatinted with these 70/80s shows.

They should've just given Suzanne Somers the money and let the show continue with Chrissy. If that happened today, it would've turned out very differently, I think. In the era of metoo Suzanne's story would be quite different.

They absolutely should have given her the money to stay. Those 3 had great chemistry. Misogyny got in the way.

Compared to what Three's Company was making for the network, what Suzanne wanted in compensation was a pittance. CBS was making a bloody fortune off of that show and everybody was getting rich except the cast. Even Ritter wasn't getting paid that much in relation to what the executives were making.

Yes, misogyny played a big part. That whole saga would be seen in a totally different way in today's world, people would be on Suzanne's side.

R16 You funny lady!

[quote{The Waltons was a very good show, at least the first few seasons. A show set in the Blue Ridge in the Depression was a long shot but it was deservedly popular.

It had the Christmas movie “The Homecoming” as its pilot. If that hadn’t been successful, they may not have gone ahead with the series.

[quote]Flo also used, “When donkey’s fly”

Oh, dear.

Mel? Kiss my cunt.

The seventies had some great shows, and some sucked ass

R334 Suzanne was never going to get what she wanted. She wanted I believe 10 percent ownership of the show and 150 thou per episode. They would’ve had to have given John and Joyce significant raises too, so it wasn’t only about Suzanne. They really dumbed down Somers in the last season. I can only imagine what they would’ve done to the character if she stayed. That being said, the Chrissy episodes are more watchable than the Terri or Cindy ones.

They should have given her what she wanted (or negotiated in good faith) which they didn’t. John and Joyce should have also gotten more. The show was making huge money. The show suffered when they lost Chrissy. They already lost the Ropers. It was stupid to show such little respect for the actors.

The thing about Chrissy is they dumbed her down so much she wasn’t as enjoyable to watch. I suppose maybe it was done purposely. I think the show really lost a lot when the Ropers left.

Chrissy was still funny when they purposely dumbed her down. It still boils down to chemistry and that trio had it in spades.

I always liked Mr. Furley over the Ropers.

I did too

I haven't seen this show since I was a kid, so I've watched a couple Season 1 episodes because of this thread. The worst part of 'Alice' was Alice!

Bang! Zoom!

(Oops. Wrong Alice.)

Kiss my tits!

I don’t know if this has been posted yet or not. Linda in Wonderland was Linda’s TV special.

There must've been a ton of suicides that Thanksgiving, R351.

R343 the show remained a top 10 hit until the very last season when the bottom fell out. But by then they had decided to spin Ritter off to his own show anyway. Joyce, John and Suzanne all deserved more money. The producers and ABC made a huge amount of money off it. Suzanne should’ve never let her husband negotiate for her. She wanted such substantially more money they basically laughed in his face. It just wasnt a reality at the time in this situation for all three to get over 100 thou per episode. Suzanne admits she would’ve done it different now. I think they did the best they could with Priscilla and some episodes she’s in are good. It had the desired effect of keeping it as a ratings hit with her.

[quote] 100 thou per episode

Why do you keep writing "thou" for "thousand"? Are you Velma Kelly?

Not only that, he misgendered Suzanne!!

[quote] She wanted such substantially more money they basically laughed in [bold]his[/bold] face.

That’s LITERAL VIOLENCE!!

TC was still a hit due to Ritter. They also wrote better for Janet which helped. The show was still relatively funny but for me it just isn’t nearly as enjoyable without Chrissy.

Linda was fine as Alice. The show really is comfort food. It is a shame Flo flopped and they didn’t bring her back. That means there definitely was bad blood.

Does anyone remember why Flo (the character) left the diner?

She left to work in a new place in Houston (or Dallas) where Flo was going to be set. I like to imagine she stayed there and hilarity ensued for decades. Alice came begging for a job when her singing career went down in flames within weeks of leaving Mel’s. Flo told her to kiss her grits which left Alice in tears running out the door. Mel, Jolene nor Vera would return Alice’s calls.

^^I like that.

And thanks for the info.

Flo died in a shootout at the Yellow Rose in 1989.

R355 they laughed in her husband’s face. He was doing the negotiating if you read my entire posting.

R358 she took a job in Houston, but got sidetracked in her hometown Cowtown, Tx. to run Flo’s Yellow Rose a local watering hole. I’m not sure why they wrote it as her landing job in Houston in Alice. The concept might’ve changed I guess. I like the Houston idea more with Flo experiencing more culture clash in a big city. The show might’ve lasted longer this way

When was it confirmed that Tommy had sizemeat?

The 'Flo' show started off strong in its first short test season, but ratings dropped significantly during its second season after it was moved to a different time slot and was canceled.

Polly Holiday didn't get along with Sudie Bond (who played her mother) or Joyce Bulifant (who played her best friend). Bulifant quit mid way through the second season because she had enough. However Lucy Lee Flippin (who played her sister) had a nicer and more diplomatic about her experiences with Polly. She said Polly was under a lot of pressure for the show to succeed and she was in nearly every scene on the show practically. She said Polly sent her a very nice telegram after Lucy gave a great performance on Little House on the Prairie.

Is Polly a lez? Never married, no kids.

R363, Battle of the Network Stars.

McKeon was so homely, 10 inches wouldn't have made him hot.

What the hell did McKeon die from?

Remember the Very Special Episode where Flo, lot lizard that she was, crawled into the cab of a guy's truck and was raped and almost murdered? It turned out there was a serial killer in Phoenix who was killing women at truck stops.

R369 Facts of Life would have gone there. Totally.

R370, ditto Too Close for Comfort.

[quote][R369] Facts of Life would have gone there. Totally.

[quote][R370], ditto Too Close for Comfort.

Ditto

All In The Family

Good Times

Maude

Little House on the Prairie

I grew up in the 90s but my mom watched Little House all the time. Holy hell. That one episode where that girl was getting raped by this guy in a mask. That legit was fucked up.

WTF did the others do?

Natalie was almost raped on Facts of Life.

R364 it was dumb not to have Alice as a lead in for Flo. Polly was strong enough to carry her own series, but the fish out of water concept (Flo amongst people who are quite different from her) might’ve saved the show. I can’t imagine watching hicks for 30 minutes straight on any sitcom. Mama’s Family is a dl fave, but I’d rather watch paint dry.

I saw Audra Lindley once in a very serious dramatic play, The Visit, at the Williamstown Theatre festival. (With James Whitmore.) That was interesting (and just okay, not great). Far cry from Mrs. Roper anyhow.

The idea of Audra LIndley and James Whitmore having a rage-inducing sexual history is....

Every year LL recorded a new version of the "Alice" theme, which just highlighted the facts that each year she was less "new" and farther away from being a "girl." Although she was still "in town."

But going through life with blinders on, it's tough to see how old you really are.

The original Alice opening was best. LL really fucked up a lot of those openings.

The odd thing about the Seventies was that they used so many performers who were almost entirely known as Broadway musical comedy stars as sitcom leads.

Linda Lavin (It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Superman) for Alice

Beatrice Arthur (Mame, 3Penny Opera) for Maude

Hal Linden (The Rothschilds) for Barney Miller

Bonnie Franklin (Applause) for One Day at a Time

Jean Stapleton (Bells Are Ringing) for All in the Family

They have done a little of that since (such as with Megan Mullally), but it's been nothing like the Seventies.

All in all, it was more common for Hollywood actors to train on the NY stage or study in NY, before coming to Hollywood -- then. Not now. But I don't know why those (mostly Norman Lear) shows used stage stars. Exept they were all filmed on videotape in front of an audience, similar to being onstage.

[quote] He was doing the negotiating [bold]if you read my entire posting.[/bold]

Hmmmm. Perhaps you’re guilty of the same. Unless you just didn’t read the signature line.

[quote] How was Linda Lavin cast in Alice?

She gave Fred Silverman the best blow job of his life.

If she had not played Alice, who would have said, in that unmistakable Brooklyn accent (even though she was raised in Vermont), "TAWWW-MY!"?

Alice should have had a lesbian waitress. Maybe they'll have one in the reboot.

r385, they will all be trans and Blatinx.

Except for Mel, who will be Inuit.

Mel should be played by Caitlyn Jenner.

To reboot Alcie today as a show about someone trying to start a singing career - it would just be about a 12 year old posting videos to YouTube

Linda grew up in Portland, Maine, not Vermont.

Flo was the main inspiration for Bruce to transition to Caitlyn

[quote]How was Linda Lavin cast in Alice?

Linda's "lavin' was the best in the industry, IF you know what I mean.

I like the jazzy keyboard riffs. Here’s the karaoke video for millennials.

Alice did not need that station wagon for just her and TAWMMY. A small Datsun or hatchback would've done just fine. No wonder her ass broke down in Phoenix.

I never understood why Alice stayed in Phoenix - it made no sense. She could've had that car repaired, been on the road by 6am and in LA by 1. It's not like she was on the SS Minnow and stranded on GILLIGAN'S ISLAND. And it's not like she stayed because she had a great career - she was slinging hash in a greasy spoon!

[quote]Alice did not need that station wagon for just her and TAWMMY

I assume she had it in NJ where she was a typical housewife. Remember that was before SUVs

Did they ever explain why Alice didn't think she could make any money as a singer in NYC? Coming in from NJ, she could have sold the broken station wagon.

[quote]I never understood why Alice stayed in Phoenix

Did you NOT WATCH the opening??? Obviously things DID work out, so she stayed awhile...uh uh uh uh uhhhhhhhh

[quote]Did they ever explain why Alice didn't think she could make any money as a singer in NYC?

Less competition. That is why 3rd rate actors go to Chicago. The first rate go to NYC and LA, the second rate to Branson, Nashville or Miami.

[quote]If she had not played Alice, who would have said, in that unmistakable Brooklyn accent (even though she was raised in Vermont), "TAWWW-MY!"?

Is Leah Rimini too old to play "Alice" in a reboot? Let Megan Mullaley be Flo.

To think that the writers of The Way We Were also wrote

There's a NEW SQUIRREL in TOWN!

[quote]I never understood why Alice stayed in Phoenix

Because Mel gave her "a good seeing to as the British call it" once a week while Tommy was in school. She never knew it could be that good.

[quote]The odd thing about the Seventies was that they used so many performers who were almost entirely known as Broadway musical comedy stars as sitcom leads.

Broadway fed many actors to tv and Hollywood.

Vivian Vance

Sherman Helmsley

Clifton Davis

Eileen Brennan

Georgia Engel

Stockard Channing

Barbra Streisand

John Cullum

Carol Burnett

[quote]Broadway fed many actors to tv and Hollywood.

Patti LuPone

Mandy Patinkin

[quote] Linda's "lavin' was the best in the industry, IF you know what I mean.

I don’t know what you mean.

I had no idea Georgia Engel had a Broadway career. With that voice?!

[quote]Linda's "lavin' was the best in the industry, IF you know what I mean.

This made me throw up a little.

[quote]I had no idea Georgia Engel had a Broadway career. With that voice?!

She started out as a Minnie Faye replacement in the original Hello Dolly. She went in when Phyllis Diller played Dolly and stayed until Merman closed the show. Can you imagine what Merman thought of Georgia Engel?

[quote]Phyllis Diller played Dolly

That sounds absolutely horrifying.

Phyllis Diller was actually a classically trained pianist. Then she met Fang! Ah-hah! Here she is about the time she would have been in Dolly. 1969. If you want to know what caused the riot at Stonewall, give this a listen Ah-hah!

Georgia Engel has an even more distinguished stage career toward the end of her life.

Annie Baker wrote John for her after working with her on an adaptation of Uncle Vanya at Soho Rep. Her performance in Middletown was also wonderful.

She managed in only a few years to become a beloved fixture in off-Broadway theater.

[quote]Georgia Engel has an even more distinguished stage career toward the end of her life.

Yes, she was a revelation in "The Vagina Monologues."

Georgia Engel would probably be alive today if she wasn't a Christian Scientist and had gone to see doctors. Stupid.

Chicago is a center for producing commercials and has a respected theater scene. I suspect it's a step above Branson and Nashville and certainly from Miami. Branson probably gets the musical-types who can't make it in Vegas.

Linda lavin is ready for Vegas

Georgia Engel was also Mrs. Tottendale in the original Broadway cast of "The Drowsy Chaperone."

R409, that just made my Eldergay eyeballs explode.

Not to burst DL’s bubble but I met LL a few times in NYC. She could not have been nicer! The husband too.

She clearly adored Phil McKeon.

Linda is hereby ordained as the nicest woman on the planet, but her singing voice is still Phoenix AZ level

They should have done a parallel Alice where she takes the Northern route and ends up in Salt Lake City, Utah. Hilarity ensues.

We need a trans Alice. The world needs to a new hero.

There's a new THEM in town and THEY'RE feelin' good!

[quote]The odd thing about the Seventies was that they used so many performers who were almost entirely known as Broadway musical comedy stars as sitcom leads.

As already mentioned, Broadway gave us many Hollywood actors since the beginning of celluloid, however, usually the better looking ones got lead roles, while the less fortunate got character parts. The 70s, though, was a watershed decade for actors with character actor looks becoming big stars, e.g. Dustin Hoffman, Barbra Streisand, Elliot Gould, Walter Matthau, etc.

R384 I am truly shocked to learn that Linda Lavin was not raised in NYC. Per a Google search, she was born and raised (at least in part) in Portland, Maine. It's not clear to me how she acquired her NYC accent. Perhaps her parents lived in NYC before she was born in 1937. I know from my own family history that by the late 1930s, some Jewish families left what were essentially Jewish ghettos in Brooklyn and the Bronx to seek jobs and a better life elsewhere. The first time I heard LL was on a promo for the first season of Alice. I still remember thinking, "What in the world is a Jewish woman from NYC doing working in a diner in Phoenix?" Apparently, the Alice Hyatt character was from New Jersey, perhaps to explain the accent. Maybe if LL had a Maine accent, Alice could have been from there.

Linda Lavin is one of our greatest actresses, actually astounding on stage.

R425 when donkeys fly

[quote] The 70s, though, was a watershed decade for actors with character actor looks becoming big stars, e.g. Dustin Hoffman, Barbra Streisand, Elliot Gould, Walter Matthau, etc.

Walter Matthau was a movie star long before the 70s.

R383 No, that was me.

R424 She really didn't have a New York accent. She might have put on some kind of accent for Alice, I forget. But even though she's pronouncing her Rs here she sounds more like a New Englander than a New Yorker.

Once a cunt, ALWAYS a cunt.

R429 Interesting. I'll listen to how she pronounces her words with that in mind (I've lived in New England for decades and will listen for elements of a Maine accent). It may be more her delivery style in terms of intonation within sentences that reminds me of my Brooklyn-raised Jewish mother!

^^From R424

R429 Yes, she has an unusual blend of NYC for some words ("thawwt" rather than "thot" for "thought") and the more open vowel pronunciation of Mainers for other words. People in both places drop or swallow their Rs, and I had interpreted that as NYC. Her intonation also seems to be a blend between NYC up and down inflection within a sentence and Mainer flat inflection sometimes with a rise at the end of sentences (also sometimes done by New Yorkers). After listening carefully to her in the YT clip, I agree that she may have used a more NYC accent as Alice because the character was from NJ.

Lavin lived in NYC for many years, so it would have been easy to pick up elements of that accent. I've never lived there but have some New Yorkish pronunciations simpley because I've been around New Yorkers for my entire adult life.

Linda Lavin, Linda Lovelace - I’m always confused

She’s a real dynamo, that Linda!

[quote]Linda Lavin, Linda Lovelace - I’m always confused

That's easy, Linda Lavin was the whore. I know

Max Gail, tell us, did Linda love you and leave you with a broken heart? Was Hal linden the cause?

Did Tommy ever get smacked on the ass by one of Alice's boyfriends on the show?

[quote]Did Tommy ever get smacked on the ass by one of Alice's boyfriends on the show?

How do you think she lived in a period of high inflation on the salary of a waitress? I think she totally fed Tommy from free food at Mel’s diner. But the car and the apartment had to be subsidized by what Tommy could earn. On the plus side, she could charge a premium because he was blond.

Was it ever mentioned in the movie or tv series if Alice was a widow or a divorcee?

Alice's husband dies in an accident not long into the movie. At least he is spared hearing more of Tommy's wisecracks.

[quote]Was it ever mentioned in the movie or tv series if Alice was a widow or a divorcee?

You're kidding right?

In the TV version we learn in Season 6 that hubby faked his death to get away from cunt Alice and to avoid paying child support for horse faced TAHM-ME. Nancy McKeon played the half sister and Alex Rocco played the dad. Best episode of the series, hands down.

[quote]Max Gail, tell us, did Linda love you and leave you with a broken heart?

No, she was the lesser star and got the TV series. That's how I know she spread her "lavin" around.

I think they should do a reboot of Alice with a gay man. Several times per season, he could belt out showtunes in a cabaret and that would save on writer's fees.

There's a new guy in town and he's lookin' GOOD!

There's a fresh, freckled face in the gay-bor-hood.

She should have made a disco album.

And danced in it.

I was at a gay bar last night and her present-day face came on the tube, she’s in a new sitcom right now?

During one of the interminable "musical" episodes of Alice, Linda and Martha Raye sang Rod Stewart's "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy," wearing miniskirts so short you could almost see their cooters.

[quote]Linda and Martha Raye sang Rod Stewart's "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy," wearing miniskirts so short you could almost see their cooters.

The sponsor of the show was Depends adult diapers, so what you were seeing on Raye was her cooter-colored diaper.

[quote] During one of the interminable "musical" episodes of Alice, Linda and Martha Raye sang Rod Stewart's "Do Ya Think I'm Sexy," wearing miniskirts so short you could almost see their cooters.

Here it is, in all its glory.

r451 that was terrifying

[quote] Is Leah Rimini too old to play "Alice" in a reboot? Let Megan Mullaley be Flo.

They're both too old,. But it would be the perfect role for Demi Lovato.

"MEL, this chocolate pudding is TRIGGERING ME!"

Alice bloopers

r454

wow just the 1st 30 seconds proves she's the cuntiest cunt who ever cunted

On the show, did Mel do ALL the cooking? He had another man working in the kitchen with him in the movie.

Does Vera have an Only Fans?

R456 there were episodes when Mel wasn’t there or in the kitchen and you saw the others cook.

In the movie, the diner was called "Mel & Ruby's Cafe." But on the show it was simply "Mel's Diner," and Mel was a bachelor.

Does anyone know what role our Linda plays in "Being the Ricardos?" Is she Mrs. Trumball?

Linda plays William Frawley.

Raye & Lavin should have had their own 70s variety show. We think they're sexy AND hilarious.

Martha Raye, god bless her, was batshit insane.

This thread has Everthing!

I grew up in Portland Maine, and many Jewish people there adopted some classic Yiddish/NY dialects very naturally. There were always relatives in NYC, and when Linda moved there, it was a natural transition to becoming a NY Jew.

Each time I met her in NYC, she was very bitchy. She didn't like interacting with fans, and didn't give a shit if you were also from Portland. She wanted you out of her way. Not a fan.

I think we can get this thread to 600 and get a second one started!

Linda Lavin is that beloved! Take that Bonnie Franklin!

Linda is DL catnip.

I’ve had numerous celeb interactions over the years in NYC. Linda Lavin was my single least pleasant. I don’t like her at all.

I've heard that Linda is a real pill to deal with, and she thinks VERY highly of herself.

I always wondered why they needed 3 waitresses when the diner was mostly empty. Also I never really saw a burger and fries or even soda. Just a lot of coffee, chili and eggs.

[quote] I've heard that Linda is a real pill to deal with, and she thinks VERY highly of herself.

I’m shocked I tell ya. Shocked!!!

[quote]I always wondered why they needed 3 waitresses when the diner was mostly empty.

It had a counter and, what, six tables?

And did all three of them work seven days a week from open to close?

If I were alive I'd give Lavin the good hard slap she deserves.

If she's such a cunt, why does she keep getting hired for new shows over and over -- and at a age when most actors have hung it up?

I'm keeping it fresh.

Good question, R474.

It's very possible that she's chilled out a bit in her old age, or reserves her temper for fans, underlings and co-stars, but is charming as fuck in negotiations with her opportunity providers.

Alice stayed consistently funny throughout its run even though they recycled storylines often.

Boy did the70s and 80s love their “guest stars.”

R476, or she’s an expert casting couch surfer.

Mel's Diner in the reboot would be a vegan coffee bar with all trans waitresses.

R474 yeah I was going to say the same thing - because no matter what you say she has absolutely never been at a loss for work. And it’s not because of her classic good looks or Streep level talent.

Just the thought of Linda offering her snatch to lustful casting agents makes me HORNY as HELL!

Mel would be a hairy FTM

In 1985, Linda Lavin was *this close* to signing on to a sequel/spin-off called 'Alice's Palace' where Alice would buy and run a struggling hotel in Nashville. Vic Tayback talked her out of it.

It amazes me that Alice ended just four years before Seinfeld began. They feel decades apart in sensibility.

Elaine was no new girl in town, thank God.

R449 The mental image of that is too much for me after a day of looking at a collapsed condo.

[quote] [R449] The mental image of that is too much for me after a day of looking at a collapsed condo.

You don't need to just picture it. You can view it at the link at R451, if you dare.

R484, holy shit, you’re right. Alice feels very dated. Seinfeld, not so much.

All of those 80s sitcoms are so dated now, with the exceptions of Cheers and Golden Girls. Maybe one or two others. They're just so cornball and unfunny now, esp. all the family sitcoms. Different Strokes, Growing Pains, Family Ties, Mr. Belvedere etc. are just unwatchable garbage.

Linda has already re-written and recorded eight versions of Candle In The Wind as an homage to herself. They will be played at her funeral, with a special outro with her scat singing the theme to “Alice” as her casket is lowered.

I have to give it to LL, though, she does come across as likable, whether or not she actually is in real life. Her whole deal is she overestimates her singing ability. The Bonstress (may she RIP) on the other hand...

R490 Rather than the usual Jewish tradition of shoveling dirt onto the lowered coffin by burial attendees, hash from a nearby diner will be used.

I sang from the time I was a baby. The story about me is that I stood up in my crib before I spoke and sang “God Bless America.” This may be apocryphal but my mother dined out on it plenty. “Come,” she’d say to the company, “she’s singing.”

That’s pretty much who I have always been — a light goes on and I’ll sing. I sang on beaches in Maine for my mother’s friends, while they were sitting and knitting, and for their husbands, who would come on Sundays to play cards. My theme song was the Buddy Clark hit “Linda,’’ with the lines, “When I go to sleep, I never count sheep, I count all the charms about Linda.”

It seems a little crazy now, but it wasn't so unusual in the 80s to have bigger staffs. Maybe not for a six table diner, but the place I work literally had double the staff in the 80s and 90s that it has today (not food service, but comparable). People are very overworked and overextended at their service jobs these days. They want to pay fewer people to get the same jobs done. Maybe the Alice situation was unrealistic, maybe not.

Exactly, r494.

The corporate mantra for years now has been “do more with less.”

R484: The late 70s and much of the 80s were something of a nadir for sitcoms, they were just so awful---lots of recycled story lines, high concept premises, hammy acting and, on the Norman Lear shows, shouting. A few good shows emerged in the mid-70s like WKRP, Taxi, and Barney Miller which carried the sensibility of shows that revived sitcomes in the early 70s like MTM. After years of boring stuff like "Alice", "Cosby" revived the genre by being both old fashioned (middle class family with boring problems) and fresh (it's a Black middle class family and it had Cosby's low key sensibility rather than a lot of mugging for the camera or Norman Lear shouting).

How was Linda able to get a cutie like Kip Niven? What’s the story behind that love match? Was she older than him?

The pitch for this probably started with---hey that "Alice" was popular and an Oscar winner, let's do a show like that. Great idea, but it was a bit of a downer. Let's make her upbeat and a little wacky and get some quirky characters to make it funny.

The theme song of Alice is more about the character Ellyn Burstyn played than the one that Linda Lavin did.

Burstyn actually has a "freckled face."

Nobody had mentioned the set change. There was a redecoration but I can’t remember which seasons it happened. There was some ugly western mural in the first season.

I think starting season two was the change for the set. In season 1, there was an office in the back where the dining room was, and they changed it to the right of the kitchen and it became a storeroom. Plus I think the overall dining room got bigger.

I loved Mr. Belvedere! I thought it was really witty and he could be savage. Overall, I loved the late 70s and early 80s sitcoms and I wasn’t even of that generation. Yes, they followed a formula, but they were also feel good and engaging.

Some enterprising drag queens need to put on an Alice: The Musical or ODAAT: The Musical. They would immediately become cult classics like Rocky Horror. Maybe even Linda Lavin or Mackenzie Philips could have cameo roles.

Dammit, r503, why couldn’t you have suggested this earlier?

R504 But you know you'd pay a small fortune to see a Bonnie Franklin drag queen slap the shit out of Julie! And who would play Schneider? I think I'm on to something here....

R496 All In The Family, The Bob Newhart Show, The Odd Couple, M*A*S*H, Happy Days, Sanford And Son, Chico And The Man, Family Ties, Night Court, Perfect Strangers, Golden Girls, Empty Nest, Newhart.

And there would have to be songs based on their famous signature lines, “Kiss my Grits” and “Damnit, Julie/Schneider!”.

How many punctuation marks do you think you need?

Kip Niven cheated on Linda and tried to get her money in the divorce. She was a loving stepmother to his lids and still keeps in touch with them

To get the audience that will understand the drag parody of Alice and ODAAT, the shows will need to be held around 4pm with early bird specials - senor discounts

I would get in line at 6 am to see that shit.

[quote]senor discounts

R510 That would be for the hispanic version of ODAAT

R510 And I'd be out in the lobby with the merch table selling Alice caftans and "Kiss my Grits" instant grits!

Rare picture of Bonnie without a plunging neckline to display her braless goods. Bonnie's sister was taller, prettier, and styled her hair without a picture of a mushroom clipped to the mirror.

[quote]Some enterprising drag queens need to put on an Alice: The Musical or ODAAT: The Musical. They would immediately become cult classics like Rocky Horror.

It didn't involve drag queens, but the parody of The Brady Bunch off-Broadway in the early 1990s was great. An unknown Jane Lynch played Carol Brady. That was back when NYC had a thriving off-Broadway scene.

I'm not saying it again - I will not be sweeping up all those straws off the floor after every show!

There would have to be some sort of drag queen duel number between the Flo, Belle, and Jolene.

The weird thing is that Linda really did start off as a great singer. She stopped the show every night of "It's a Bird... It's a Plane... It's Superman!" when she sang "You've Got Possibilities," and this shows why. She wasn't even playing the female lead.

If you listen to anyone else sing this song on youtube, no one even comes close--not even Sutton Foster.

Of course no thread about Linda Lavin is complete without thee classic Andrea martin skit about her on SCTV.

"THEN IT'S YOUR FUNERAL!"

I remember a hilarious video on Youtube of the ODAAT theme song using all the clips of the cast being slapped.

I wish I could find it, but I think it's gone.

It is irritating how they thought enough of Flo to give her her own show, it was canceled thanks for the network moving it around, so why not bring her back. Yes, I understand Polly may not have wanted to but if the character was that important they could have thrown some good money her way.

[quote] I remember a hilarious video on Youtube of the ODAAT theme song using all the clips of the cast being slapped.

Is this the one?

Another Alice: The Musical number could be a drag Vera singing "Vera's Ballad"--a lament about her being tall and homely, but in the end her big heart wins over a hot guy and they sail off into the sunset.

This thing is writing itself.

Mary Louise Wilson asked to be let out of her contract because she couldn't stand working with Bonnie Franklin.

R522 ODAAT was created by Whitney Blake (the mother on Hazel)? I didn't know that.

My mom liked both Alice and ODAAT. So even though I wasn't crazy about these shows I sometimes watched them with her and I have kind of a soft spot for them.

Whitney Blake was Meredith Baxter's mother. Meredith never got along with her.

Did Mary Louise Wilson ever get slapped hard by Bonnie, on or off camera?

Did the ODAAT reboot include slapping? Did Rita Moreno get slapped? And how hard?

I slapped it plenty of times while fantasizing about a naked Michael Lembeck.

R528 She did hit Froy in the ass with her cane

In addition to the ODAAT finale/failed backdoor pliot, Corey Feldman was also originally Beaver’s son in [italic]Still the Beaver[/italic] but when it went to series after the TV movie they replaced him.

R521 I think she just had enough of the character and dealing with Lavin anymore. People were coming up to her on the streets and yelling kiss my grits, which I’m sure got old very fast. It’s too bad they couldn’t get her back for the finale of the show. I’m unsure if she was even asked or she declined. I heard a story that Polly kept her rent controlled apartment or condo knowing that the Flo fame was fleeting.

Polly Holliday is now 84 and hasn't worked in over a decade.

They should not have cut her scenes out of [italic]Mrs. Doubtfire.[/italic]

R534 she’s retired in fact.

Diane Ladd was good in [italic]Something Wicked This Way Comes[/italic], which was her consolation prize for failing to live up to the popularity of the made-for-TV version of herself here.

R522, that's it!! Thank you!!

Can you imagine if that had ever actually aired?

You know some DLer edited that thing!

Linda is PISSED at Bonnie getting to sit in the center instead of her in R532’s pic!

I had to know, so I did some digging and found out what R532's pic is from:

In r532's pic I recognize Bert Convy, Jim Nabors and of course the gruesome twosome of Bonnie and Linda. Who is the other redheaded woman and the guy with the beard?

Eve Arden / Richard Crenna or vice versa

Eve Arden and Richard Crenna from Our Miss Brooks.

Coco played Vera's husband Elliott.

[quote] selling Alice caftans and "Kiss my Grits" instant grits!

No self respectin’ southerner uses instant grits.

I just looked up Eve Arden and she was 70 years old in that picture! She was remarkably youthful-looking.

No, I'm the youthful-looking one, R546! [virtual slap]

R496 The shouting on certain Norman Lear shows didn’t start in the late 1970s, it started in early 1971 in the first season of All in the Family and continued on Maude starting in 1972. Some (many?) of us came from families that shouted at each other, so I felt those shows finally represented my reality, whereas Father Knows Best, Donna Reed, and Leave it to Beaver, et al. did not.

For some reason the shouting on 'All in the Family' never bothered me, but the shouting on 'Maaaawde' really did.

R514 Based on the photo and your comment, I think I understand better why Bonnie was Bonnie.

I'll gladly take [italic]Maude[/italic] over anything with Bill Cosby.

R549 Bea Arthur and Bill Macy were the best Jewish NYC couple on TV ever, even if neither of the characters was supposed to be Jewish. They were exactly what my Jewish NYC parents sounded like with each other.

P.S. - If the DL’er who previously wrote that I had a lot of baggage to unpack based on some recollections about my father is reading this, you don’t have to repeat yourself here.

What's funny is that IRL Bea Arthur was quite shy and soft-spoken, the total opposite of her public image.

[quote]Polly Holliday is now 84 and hasn't worked in over a decade.

Are you planning to continue working after you turn 74?

R518 After the song, You Tube suggested Seth Rudetsky’s deconstruction of Linda’s performance. If anyone had any doubts about how good a singing actress Linda was, listen to Seth’s analysis.

“I’m in a New Yawk State of Mind”!

This is the only video you need to watch! Talent! In Spades!

R548 There was always shouting on certain sitcoms, The Honeymooners and I Love Lucy for ex.

What I always think is interesting is the rural shows many people here probably grew up with, like Petticoat Junction, were taken off the air in the "rural purge" of the early 70s. Lassie, Mayberry RFD, Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and a lot of westerns bit the dust and all the shows we're talking about took their place. There were many related cancellations such as most of the variety shows, Ed Sullivan, Gleason, Skelton, and several family shows. Most of the programs had high ratings but were cancelled anyway.

As a kid growing up in the 70s in California, I always wondered why all the sitcoms were back east, the ghetto, or both. The only thing set in the west that I remember was Chico and The Man, but once again, en el barrio.

Sanford and Son was set in sunny California, R559.

R559 - my experience, exactly. I remember starting a story in about 6th grade and thinking, "Not another story about little black girls in the ghetto". Same with TV shows - most set in the city.

R560 So was Room 222, but these were all urban-set shows.

Wasn't 'She's the Sheriff' set in California? At least half of it, anyway.

CHIPs was in California.

R557 I didn’t know Tom Whedon worked on Alice. I have to look up his credits (other than GG and being father to Josh).

r564 CHiPs was not a sitcom.

R557 that wasn’t season 1 closing credits. Looked like the middle of the series run.

R566, it wasn't?

R561: They were rebelling against the previous decade's shows set in rural and suburban all-white towns.

Looking particularly butch with Rosie O.

And sure enough she breaks out into the Alice theme song at 3:25 🙄

Almost anybody sounds good compared to Rosie. Even her.

CUNT!

Was ¨Waitress" something of a modern-day update of ¨Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore?"

It was

R565

Lots of sitcoms were set in California---moving to California was a tv executive cliche to jazz up an old sitcom along with weddings and babies. Lucy and My Three Sons come to mind. Gidget was an obvious southern California show.

And for R565: Before there was Tom Whedon, there was John Whedon who wrote for radio and then tv sitcoms like the Donna Reed Show.

Moving to California was the death Laverne and Shirley.

Bob Newhart never was the same in california

[quote]Moving to California was the death Laverne and Shirley.

Yes and it showed how stupid sitcoms could be. The entire cast moved to California as if they were the Joad family.

R575 it was also the cliché for self improvement and “finding yourself” and all that bullshit. Like you have to go to California to “find yourself.”

The popular image of California back then was so different than now.

It's not that shows weren't set in California, it was a purge of rural shows when the newtorks decided an older and rural demographic was not who they were trying to reach not the demographic that was going to buy the sponsor's products.

California was the present and the future back then. Ironically, all that was starting to end when shows more often set there. TV moguls are always a little behind the curve.

R579, there was an episode of The Nanny, where the entire clan packed up and moved to California. Fran even met Ellie Mae Clampett in Bever-LEE.

California is not looked at positively by present-day Americans. It's kind of an overcrowded hellhole. The days of California being "the land of opportunity and a laid-back lifestyle" are long, long gone.

Only on DL could a thread about Linda Levin devolve into tedious CA bashing.

California used to have free public college. Gov. Reagan cut state funding for higher ed., started shifting to tuition-based funding, called in the Nat. Guard against protesting students. In many other ways it was a great place, a lot of opportunity,and growth.

STOW IT!

r586 Linda Lavin causes a wide variety of subjects to be discussed. She is our modern Oracle.

589 posts about how Linda Lavin was cast as Alice are not all going to be about how Linda Lavin was cast as Alice.

[quote] Only on DL could a thread about Linda Levin devolve into tedious CA bashing.

She lived in North Carolina for a few years if I recall correctly.

Kiss my shits.

TV has a funny way of skewering people's perceptions of what actors are actually famous for. Imagine having a long career in the theater only to get a job on TV and be remembered for a catch phrase and for that to overshadow you in everything else.

[quote] Was ¨Waitress" something of a modern-day update of ¨Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore?"

The Keri Russell film with Jeremy Sisto as the abusive husband?

The movie that felt like a re-telling of ADLHA was 1990’s “Men Don’t Leave” starring Jessica Lange with Chris O’Donnell in the Tommy-ish role.

(Now six more posting opportunities for the Lange loon to comment.)

I had such a crush on Chris O'Donnell in the mid-1990s. That wasn't enough to persuade me to actually sit through [italic]Batman and Robin[/italic]. I could easily take Jim Carrey's histrionics more than George Clooney's nothingness because at least the former had some there there.

I was a fan of Chris’ crotch plate

[quote]Imagine having a long career in the theater only to get a job on TV and be remembered for a catch phrase and for that to overshadow you in everything else.

I know the feeling.

Katherine Helmond was an award-winning actress who wasted eight years of her life on one of the worst TV shows ever after the show she was on that was actually good was the target of a Bible Belt boycott and only ran four years.

So………SWEEEEEEEETTTTT!

Bopity-Bop!

Nobody held a gun to their heads and told them they had to do a series and make a huge amount of money.

'